Your Top 25 Players

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

This is somewhat of a "copy-cat" thread. Another thread similar to this was created long ago, so I didn't want to reply in that thread because no one would ever look at it :dismay:
Anyways, here are my top 25 players(players in red were in Negro Leagues at any time in their career):
1) Ruth
2) Mays
3) W. Johnson
4) Aaron
5) Gehrig
6) Cobb
7) Williams
8) Musial
9) Hornsby
10) Mathewson
11) Dimaggio
12) Wagner
13) Young
14) Alexander
15) Foxx
16) Mantle
17) Josh Gibson
18) Satchel Paige
19) Ryan
20) Lajoie
21) Spahn
22) Grove
23) Kaline
24) Koufax
25) Rose

[538280]

1. Willie Mays/Babe Ruth
3. Barry Bonds
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Ted Williams
7. Ty Cobb
8. Hank Aaron
9. Mike Schmidt
10. Joe Morgan
(Oscar Charleston probably in the top 10)
11. Rickey Henderson
12. Rogers Hornsby
13. Stan Musial
14. Tris Speaker
15. Lou Gehrig
(Josh Gibson probably in that next five)
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. Eddie Mathews
21. Joe DiMaggio
22. Alex Rodriguez
23. George Brett
24. Cal Ripken
25. Arky Vaughan
(Pop Lloyd probably somewhere 20-25)

[rsuriyop]

Speaker doesn't crack your top 25?

[ChrisLDuncan]

1.) Babe Ruth
2.) Barry Bonds (since you can't combine the pre 1998 Bonds with the post 1998 bonds; if you could he'd be number 1)
3.) Ty Cobb
4.) Honus Wagner
5.) Mickey Mantle


[Josh Gibson probably in the top five somewhere]

6.) Ted Williams
7.) Willie Mays
8.) Rogers Hornsby
9.) Tris Speaker
10.) Henry Aaron


[Oscar Charleston somewhere in the top five-ten]

11.) Lou Gehrig
12.) Eddie Collins
13.) Joe DiMaggio
14.) Nap Lajoie
15.) Stan Musial
16.) Alex Rodriguez
17.) Joe Jackson
18.) Mike Schmidt
19.) Frank Robinson
20.) George Brett
21.) Jimmy Foxx
22.) Yogi Berra
23.) Joe Morgan
24.) Rickey Henderson
25.) Johnny Bench
26.) Eddie Matthews
27.) Mel Ott
28.) Arky Vaughan
29.) Carl Yastrezemski
30.) Jackie Robinson
31.) Roberto Clemente
32.) Reggie Jackson
33.) Ken Griffey Jr.
34.) Ivan Rodriguez
35.) Tony Gwynn
36.) Jeff Bagwell
37.) Pete Rose
38.) Mike Piazza
39.) Derek Jeter
40.) Al Simmons
41.) Frank Thomas
42.) Johnny Mize
43.) Manny Ramirez
44.) Vladimir Guerrero
45.) Paul Waner
46.) Charlie Gehringer
47.) George Sisler
48.) Harmon Killebrew
49.) Hank Greenberg
50.) Dave Winfield
51.) Dan Brouthers
52.) Craig Biggio
53.) Cap Anson
54.) Bill Dickey
55.) Al Kaline
56.) Cal Ripken Jr.
57.) Carlton Fisk
58.) Mickey Cochrane
59.) Roy Campanella
60.) Eddie Murray
61.) Sam Crawford
62.) Ernie Banks
63.) Willie McCovey
64.) Albert Pujols
65.) Wade Boggs
66.) Sammy Sosa
67.) Tim Raines
68.) Pie Traynor
69.) Mark McGwire
70.) Duke Snider
71.) Robin Yount
72.) Ryne Sandberg
73.) Rod Carew
74.) Andre Dawson
75.) Roberto Alomar
76.) Harry Hielman
77.) Gary Sheffield
78.) Kirby Puckett
79.) Lary Doby
80.) Barry Larkin
81.) Richie Ashburn
82.) Billy Willimas
83.) Kirby Puckett
84.) Frank Baker
85.) Paul Molitor
86.) Ichiro Suzuki
87.) Lou Brock
88.) Brooks Robinson
89.) Reggie Smith
90.) Gary Carter
91.) Will Clark
92.) Luke Appaling
93.) Louis Appraciao
94.) Dick Allen
95.) Roger Maris
96.) Roger Connor
97.) Keith Hernandez
98.) Bernie Williams
99.) Jimmy Wynn
100.) Alan Trammel





Top 25 Starting Pitchers (I say Rivera is a top 20 pitcher no doubt, but he’s a closer)
Roger Clemens
Walter Johnson
Christy Matthewson
Satchel Paige
Pete Alexander
Lefty Grove
Sandy Koufax
Pedro Martinez
Tom Seaver
Cy Young
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Warren Spahn
Steve Carlton
Bob Gibson
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
John Smoltz
Nolan Ryan
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Juan Marichal
Mordecai Brown
Curt Schilling
Carl Hubbell


Pitching Staff:
SP: Roger Clemens
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Matthewson
SP: Sandy Koufax
SP: Satchel Paige

RP: Goose Gossage
RP: Eric Gagne
RP: Dennis Eckersly
SU: Hoyt Wilhelm
CL: Mariano Rivera





Line Up A:

CF: Ty Cobb
SS Alex Rodriguez
2B Rogers Hornsby
DH Babe Ruth
LF Mickey Mantle
1B Lou Gehrig
RF Henry Aaron
C Yogi Berra
3B Mike Schmidt

Line Up B:

2B: Eddie Collins
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Barry Bonds
DH: Ted Williams
1B: Jimmy Foxx
RF: Willie Mays
3B: Eddie Matthews
C: Johnny Bench
CF: Tris Speaker


All Time Defensive Team
C: Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bid McPhee
SS: Ozzie Smith
3B: Brooks Robinson
CF: Tris Speaker
RF: Roberto Clemente
LF: Barry Bonds (Pre-1998)

Positional Rankings (Top five, execpt for OF I'll go top ten):

C:
Yogi Berra
Johnny Bench
Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Carlton Fisk

1B:
Lou Gehrig
Jimmy Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Johnny Mize
Frank Thomas

2B:
Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Joe Morgan
Charlie Gehringer

SS:
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Derek Jeter (give him time)
Arky Vaughn
Cal Ripken Jr.

3B:
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Eddie Matthews
Wade Boggs
Frank Baker

CF:
Cobb
Mantle
Mays
Tris Speaker
DiMaggio

RF:
Ruth
Aaron
Frank Robinson
Mel Ott
Roberto Clemente

LF:
Barry Bonds
Ted Williams
Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Rickey Henderson



Top Hitters of All Time:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Barry Bonds
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Ty Cobb
8. Stan Musial
9. Joe Jackson
10.) Hank Aaron
11.) Jimmy Foxx
12.) Frank Thomas
13.) Dan Brouthers
14.) Manny Ramirez
15.) Joe DiMaggio
16.) Hank Greenberg
17.) Willie Mays
18.) Tris Speaker
19.) Honus Wagner
20.) Frank Robinson



Aww heck I added the rest of my "Members Official Opinions"

[brett]

1. Ruth
2. Barry Bonds-actual stats/performance
3. Cobb
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mays
6. Mantle
7. Ted Williams
Bonds projected career based on stats through '98
8. Aaron
9. Schmidt
10. Hornsby
11. Morgan
12. Henderson
13. Speaker
14. Musial
15. Lou Gehrig
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. DiMaggio
Bonds if he retired after '98
21. Brett
22. Mathews
24. A-Rod
25. Berra/Jimmy Foxx

With pitchers
1. Ruth
2. Barry Bonds-actual stats/performance
3. Cobb
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mays
6. Mantle
7. Walter Johnson
8. Ted Williams
9. Aaron
10. Clemens/Young
12. Schmidt
13. Hornsby
14. Morgan
15. Henderson
16. Speaker
17. Musial
18. Lou Gehrig
19. Frank Robinson
20. Eddie Collins
21. Alexander
22. Grove
23. Johnny Bench
24. Grove
25. Nap Lajoie
26. DiMaggio
27. Mathewson
28. Brett
29. Seaver
30. Pedro Martinez
31. Mathews
32. A-Rod
33. Berra/Foxx

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

I don't think you guys give Gehrig enough credit. He had a .340 BA and would have had 500 HR and over 3000 hits if his career wasn't cut short. Gehrig also won the triple crown. Gehrig is third in RBI's with 1995, and he didn't even hit up to 500 taters like Ruth and Aaron, who are the top 2. Gehrig was also an incredible
first b-man and hardly ever let the ball pass his way.

I think Gehrig should be in anyone's top 10. Everytime you look at a career record, he is still in the always in the top 12 or so even though his career was cut short.

[Bill Burgess]

My Top 30: Numberals following names indicate where Bill James ranked them in 2001.

Red = Negro L. = 4
Blue = Pre-1900 = 2
Bold = Currently Active = 2
Finished careers by 1940 = 16
Played mainly after 1970 = 6
1940-1970 = 8

1. Ty Cobb 5
2. Honus Wagner 2
3. Babe Ruth 1
4. Willie Mays 3
5. Oscar Charleston, NL 4
6. Pop Lloyd, NL 22
7. Tris Speaker 10
8. Rogers Hornsby 18
9. Lou Gehrig 13
10. Barry Bonds 15
11. Eddie Collins 16
12. Stan Musial 9
13. Hank Aaron 11
14. Joe DiMaggio 12
15. Mickey Mantle 6
16. Ted Williams 7
17. Nap Lajoie 33
18. Mike Schmidt 17
19. Alex Rodriguez - SS17
20. Rickey Henderson 21
21. Buck Ewing - C17
22. Josh Gibson 8
23 Johnny Bench 36
24. Jackie Robinson 27
25. George Sisler -
26. Biz Mackay
27 George Brett 25
28. Mickey Cochrane 58
29. Roberto Clemente 60
30. Cap Anson - 1B11

[CTaka]

I don't think you guys give Gehrig enough credit. He had a .340 BA and would have had 500 HR and over 3000 hits if his career wasn't cut short. Gehrig also won the triple crown. Gehrig is third in RBI's with 1995, and he didn't even hit up to 500 taters like Ruth and Aaron, who are the top 2. Gehrig was also an incredible
first b-man and hardly ever let the ball pass his way.

I think Gehrig should be in anyone's top 10. Everytime you look at a career record, he is still in the always in the top 12 or so even though his career was cut short.

I suppose the same could be said for leaving Honus Wagner, generally considered to be in the top 5 in most every poll, out of the top ten altogether. There isn't much question that putting Wagner out of the top ten is more questionable that leaving Gehrig out of the top ten.

Or putting DiMaggio at #11 while a better player in both peak and career, Tris Speaker, out of the top 25 is even more questionable.

[brett]

I don't think you guys give Gehrig enough credit. He had a .340 BA and would have had 500 HR and over 3000 hits if his career wasn't cut short. Gehrig also won the triple crown. Gehrig is third in RBI's with 1995, and he didn't even hit up to 500 taters like Ruth and Aaron, who are the top 2. Gehrig was also an incredible
first b-man and hardly ever let the ball pass his way.

I think Gehrig should be in anyone's top 10. Everytime you look at a career record, he is still in the always in the top 12 or so even though his career was cut short.

Most of my recent (last 6-7 years) rationale for moving Gehrig down is a) that he played in a league with a lot of offense-the ultimate hitter's era and so his offense doesn't stand out as much above league averages and b) first base is a position loaded with hitters and ranks at the bottom of my defensive spectrum. I have moved him up defensively because I think he was a good defensive first baseman, and he was left handed, but if he had been a competent third baseman he would probably be just above Schmidt even in his high offensive era.

[538280]

I don't think you guys give Gehrig enough credit. He had a .340 BA and would have had 500 HR and over 3000 hits if his career wasn't cut short. Gehrig also won the triple crown. Gehrig is third in RBI's with 1995, and he didn't even hit up to 500 taters like Ruth and Aaron, who are the top 2. Gehrig was also an incredible
first b-man and hardly ever let the ball pass his way.

I think Gehrig should be in anyone's top 10. Everytime you look at a career record, he is still in the always in the top 12 or so even though his career was cut short.

Gehrig's flaws are that 1. His career is short compared to many other all time greats (his tragedy was terrible, but he shouldn't get credit for it, 2. He has minimal defensive value compared to other players. He was a solid but not great 1B, and 3. He was a tremendous offensive force even in the context of his era (179 OPS+ is absoultely tremendous), but he played in a huge offensive era, so his raw numbers make you believe he was a significantly better offensive player than he was.

[538280]

1. Ruth
2. Barry Bonds-actual stats/performance
3. Cobb
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mays
6. Mantle
7. Ted Williams
Bonds projected career based on stats through '98
8. Aaron
9. Schmidt
10. Hornsby
11. Morgan
12. Henderson
13. Speaker
14. Musial
15. Lou Gehrig
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. DiMaggio
Bonds if he retired after '98
21. Brett
22. Mathews
24. A-Rod
25. Berra/Jimmy Foxx


I think your list is great, Brett. By far the one that I like most other than my own so far posted here. I just ask why you have Henderson ahead of Musial here yet on the LF poll you had Musial listed higher.

[brett]

I think your list is great, Brett. By far the one that I like most other than my own so far posted here. I just ask why you have Henderson ahead of Musial here yet on the LF poll you had Musial listed higher.

Well, I've been flip-flopping on those two. My recent changes have been that I have de-valued walks slightly but I think that walks from a leadoff hitter should probably not be devalued so much. Nobody was trying to walk Henderson to lead off an inning, but he still kept racking them up.

The second thing that I've done recently is to appreciate the value of baserunning exclusive of stolen bases. A great runner certainly takes extra bases and scores in situations that would be inaccessable to others.

Also, Henderson played centerfield reasonably well in both '85 and '86.

I also give players a little credit if they show that they can be valuable across a variety of league conditions. Henderson came up in a relatively low run environment, but continued to be valuable into a higher offensive climate. A lot of people tend to totally dismiss what he did from '95-'99, where I think he was an incredibly valuable player.

So basically, I guess if I were going to lock in one player into left field I might still go with Musial, but Henderson's range in center makes him a better player.

[ChrisLDuncan]

1. Willie Mays/Babe Ruth
3. Barry Bonds
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Hank Aaron
7. Ted Williams
8. Ty Cobb
9. Mike Schmidt
10. Joe Morgan
(Oscar Charleston probably in the top 10)
11. Rickey Henderson
12. Rogers Hornsby
13. Stan Musial
14. Tris Speaker
15. Lou Gehrig
(Josh Gibson probably in that next five)
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. Eddie Mathews
21. Alex Rodriguez
22. George Brett
23. Cal Ripken
24. Arky Vaughan
25. Frank Thomas
(Pop Lloyd probably somewhere 20-25)

Frank Thomas that high? What about this?



Gehrig's flaws are that 1. His career is short compared to many other all time greats (his tragedy was terrible, but he shouldn't get credit for it, 2. He has minimal defensive value compared to other players. He was a solid but not great 1B, and 3. He was a tremendous offensive force even in the context of his era (179 OPS+ is absoultely tremendous), but he played in a huge offensive era, so his raw numbers make you believe he was a significantly better offensive player than he was.


How much defensive value Thomas have, his career was about as long as Lou's? He's pretty much all offense and he cracks the top 25? Ripken over Vaughn too? Also what's the case for Williams and Aaron over Cobb? Also this is really knit picking but why Musial over Spokes? But props for Bonds...if Mays is in that #1 slot Bonds should be too IMO. I really think everyone execpt for you and Brett are giving Bonds a raw deal here. By the stat Runs above Replacement, the only player that has more is Ruth and Ruth needed his pitching to overcome the beast known as Barry Lamar Bonds.

[ChrisLDuncan]

1. Ruth
2. Barry Bonds-actual stats/performance
3. Cobb
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mays
6. Mantle
7. Ted Williams
Bonds projected career based on stats through '98
8. Aaron
9. Schmidt
10. Hornsby
11. Morgan
12. Henderson
13. Speaker
14. Musial
15. Lou Gehrig
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. DiMaggio
Bonds if he retired after '98
21. Brett
22. Mathews
24. A-Rod
25. Berra/Jimmy Foxx


Yeah I have to agree with Chris here, that is a pretty good list, pretty close to my own...only a few differences.

[538280]

Frank Thomas that high? What about this?

How much defensive value Thomas have, his career was about as long as Lou's? He's pretty much all offense and he cracks the top 25?

Thomas was all offense but his offense is among the best of all time. His EqA last time I saw the leaderboard was tied for 2nd all time. The man is just an absolutely freakish hitter and had one of the best sustained performances of hitting of all time IMO 1991-1997. Thomas does suffer from the same problems Gehrig does, in that he has doesn't have much defensive value and has a short career among the all time greats. But really if you think about it he's just a little bit behind Gehrig everywhere: A little worse hitter than Gehrig, but pretty close. Worse defensively than Gehrig, and at this point has a little shorter career. Since I have Gehrig #15 I think Thomas' playing worse defense (along with time at DH), and being a little worse hitter can move him down about 10 spots.


Ripken over Vaughn too?

Ripken had three seasons in his career (1983, 1984, 1991) which were at MVP caliber. He had over a 140 OPS+ in each, was an excellent defensive SS and of course played every game. He had 37, 35, and 34 WS in those three seasons. Vaughan's three best seasons were probably a little better than that, even taking into account LQ, but not by that much. So Vaughan was a little better at his best; but in terms of overall weight of their career Ripken totally blows him away. Vaughan took years off during the war because of a disagreement he had with then Dodgers manager Leo Durocher, and kind of petered out a little young to begin with so his career is very short. Ripken had legendary longevity and was a pretty useful player through the whole thing. He was less than he was after 1991 but he still, from SS, hit just about league average and was a solid glove. That's an above average player.


Also what's the case for Williams and Aaron over Cobb?

Williams was simply too great a hitter IMO and has a significant edge on Cobb there. Aaron maybe should be behind Cobb, but Aaron might have been a little better hitter than Cobb given the quality of his league and might have been just as good a fielder too even at corner OF. Perhaps I'm putting a bit too much stock in BP's metrics there though.


Also this is really knit picking but why Musial over Spokes?

I think that Musial faced tougher competition than Speaker for most of his career (even though he did play in WWII) and was probably a better hitter by a good margin. Speaker also was not really a great basestealer, even given the time's low SB% his stolen base percentages were not particularly good, he ran into more outs than he should have on the bases.

[-Kyle-]

1. Willie Mays/Babe Ruth
3. Barry Bonds
4. Honus Wagner
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Hank Aaron
7. Ted Williams
8. Ty Cobb
9. Mike Schmidt
10. Joe Morgan
(Oscar Charleston probably in the top 10)
11. Rickey Henderson
12. Rogers Hornsby
13. Stan Musial
14. Tris Speaker
15. Lou Gehrig
(Josh Gibson probably in that next five)
16. Frank Robinson
17. Eddie Collins
18. Johnny Bench
19. Nap Lajoie
20. Eddie Mathews
21. Alex Rodriguez
22. George Brett
23. Cal Ripken
24. Arky Vaughan
25. Frank Thomas
(Pop Lloyd probably somewhere 20-25)

Wow, no DiMaggio? I was thinking at least top 25. :o

[brett]

Yeah I have to agree with Chris here, that is a pretty good list, pretty close to my own...only a few differences.

Some things that you and I agree on that differ from Chris is that I have to put Cobb higher than he does. I could see him perhaps as low as being around even with Mantle around 5th, and also, for the life of me, I can't get Ripken near the top 25. I have him around 40.

A problem with Ripken is that he only comes out around Jim Rice, Dale Murphy territory as a pure offensive player. He was very valuable to be doing that as a very good fielder at the shortstop position, but if he was THAT good defensively, then Ozzie Smith would be close to the top 25 as well. For a neutral position/fielder I have a score of 50 in my system as a borderline HOFer, and Ripken comes out at 38, and Smith at 16. I have Smith at about +60 for position and fielding, and Ripken at about +50.

It is POSSIBLE that because I have Ripken going against league averages, he gets hurt because he played most of his good years in a low run environment, and then had 8-9 more years in a higher scoring era and that his league averages get improperly skewed to the higher environment.

[brett]

Wow, no DiMaggio? I was thinking at least top 25. :o

I thought you moved Dimaggio up as well. I have Dimaggio about equal to Brett as a career offensive player without any war credit. With it, he is closer to Foxx.

A 155 OPS+ for a top centerfielder has to put him in the top 25 in my opinion, though he is not close to the top 10.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Thomas was all offense but his offense is among the best of all time. His EqA last time I saw the leaderboard was tied for 2nd all time. The man is just an absolutely freakish hitter and had one of the best sustained performances of hitting of all time IMO 1991-1997. Thomas does suffer from the same problems Gehrig does, in that he has doesn't have much defensive value and has a short career among the all time greats. But really if you think about it he's just a little bit behind Gehrig everywhere: A little worse hitter than Gehrig, but pretty close. Worse defensively than Gehrig, and at this point has a little shorter career. Since I have Gehrig #15 I think Thomas' playing worse defense (along with time at DH), and being a little worse hitter can move him down about 10 spots.


I would say Thomas has far less defenisve value than Gehrig does, but that's just me. Also Gehrig has a .346 EqA and Thomas has a .342 EqA, I just think you're selling the Horse a little short here, I for sure think he should be higher than Musial.



Williams was simply too great a hitter IMO and has a significant edge on Cobb there. Aaron maybe should be behind Cobb, but Aaron might have been a little better hitter than Cobb given the quality of his league and might have been just as good a fielder too even at corner OF. Perhaps I'm putting a bit too much stock in BP's metrics there though.


Well Cobb has more offensive value and defenisve value than Aaron, IMO, so doesn't that mean that Williams should be ahead of him too? Perhaps even in the top three.



I think that Musial faced tougher competition than Speaker for most of his career (even though he did play in WWII) and was probably a better hitter by a good margin. Speaker also was not really a great basestealer, even given the time's low SB% his stolen base percentages were not particularly good, he ran into more outs than he should have on the bases.


For a while Musial's NL had zero competition for him, whereas Speaker competed against: Lajoie, Jackson, Sisler, Cobb, Crawford, Collins, Baker, Ruth, Gehrig. WHereas Musial's league didn't get tough until about half way through his career. I would also say that Speaker has a considerable advantage on defensive value too.

[natsnsoxfan]

w/o pitchers

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Ty Cobb
4. Honus Wagner
5. Hank Aaron
6. Ted Williams
7. Mickey Mantle
8. Barry Bonds*
9. Rickey Henderson
10. Mike Schmidt
11. Tris Speaker
12. Joe Morgan
13. Roger Hornsby
14. Roberto Clemente
15. Lou Gehrig
16. Johnny Bench
17. Carl Yazstremski
18. Nap Lajoie
19. Frank Robinson
20. A-Rod
21. Cal Ripken Jr.
22. Eddie Collins
23. Stan Musial
24. Joe Dimaggio
25. Jimmy Foxx

I know Musial is way lower than he should be but i forgot about him until then and didn't want to move everyone down a spot to throw him somewhere in the top 15 so i just threw him in at the end.

w/ pitchers

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Ty Cobb
4. Cy Young
5. Walter Johnson.
6. Honus Wagner
7. Hank Aaron
8. Ted Williams
9. Sandy Koufax (based on what i think he would've done along with a full career along with what he did do)
10. Mickey Mantle
11. Barry Bonds
12. Rickey Henderson
13. Mike Schmidt
14. Roger Clemens
15. Tris Speaker
16. Joe Morgan
17. Roger Hornsby
18. Grover Alexander
19. Roberto Clemente
20. Lou Gehrig
21. Johnny Bench
22. Carl Yazstremski
23. Nap Lajoie
24. Frank Robinson
25. Pedro Martinez

Edit: Thats not EXACTLY where i would put them, just kind of there general area in my mind

[Bill Burgess]

Hornsby, Speaker, Gehrig belong in everybody's Top 10, while Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Wagner, Charleston belong in everybody's Top 5, in some order or other.

[AstrosFan]

Except for the heretics who are so misguided as to have a different opinion.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Hornsby, Speaker, Gehrig belong in everybody's Top 10, while Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Wagner, Charleston belong in everybody's Top 5, in some order or other.

I love Gehrig, but I have a hard time justifying putting him top ten, I dunno if Hank's enough to keep him out of the top ten. I agree with you on Ruth, Cobb, and Wagner...but can't justify Mays and Charleston.

[The Dude]

Hornsby, Speaker, Gehrig belong in everybody's Top 10, while Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Wagner, Charleston belong in everybody's Top 5, in some order or other.


Except for the heretics who are so misguided as to have a different opinion.

I think that's the best thing I've ever read.

[Bill Burgess]

Except for the heretics who are so misguided as to have a different opinion.
Once upon a time, heretics were burned at the stake. But today, due process limits us to burning their steaks.

[LGehrigFan]

Hornsby, Speaker, Gehrig belong in everybody's Top 10, while Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Wagner, Charleston belong in everybody's Top 5, in some order or other.

Very well said. :thumbsup:

I also think Jimmie Foxx is highly underrated in these top 25 lists. He put up great numbers.

[538280]

I changed my list a little. Williams and Cobb, lookiing a little closer, really should be ahead of Aaron. I think I had Aaron a little high.

[538280]

I would say Thomas has far less defenisve value than Gehrig does, but that's just me. Also Gehrig has a .346 EqA and Thomas has a .342 EqA, I just think you're selling the Horse a little short here, I for sure think he should be higher than Musial.

I would say Thomas has quite a bit less defensive value than Gehrig too, Chris, esepcially considering Thomas was a DH for just about half his career. The EqAs are really just about the same. Again the difference between them is essentially defensive value and a few more games for Gehrig, and Gehrig prbobably being a very little better hitter, and the games advantage probably won't even last that long.

I think Musial should definitely be ahead of Gehrig. Musial was a better defensive player than Gehrig. A better defensive 1B and also played qutie a bit in left and right field, where he wasn't great but that's still better than Gehrig's solid 1B. Gehrig was a better hitter than Musial, but it was in a much shorter career; Musial still wasn't as good in the same time as Gehrig but it's a lot closer, and with Musial's defensive edge he's probalby almost just as good, and on top of that he has a lot more career value.



Well Cobb has more offensive value and defenisve value than Aaron, IMO, so doesn't that mean that Williams should be ahead of him too? Perhaps even in the top three.

Yeah, I agree upon checking up a little more. I think I had Aaron too high. I"ve changed it.




For a while Musial's NL had zero competition for him, whereas Speaker competed against: Lajoie, Jackson, Sisler, Cobb, Crawford, Collins, Baker, Ruth, Gehrig. WHereas Musial's league didn't get tough until about half way through his career. I would also say that Speaker has a considerable advantage on defensive value too.

it doesn't matter how much top level competition was there for Musial. I'm not worried about ink scores or how many times Musial was the best in his league. I'm worried abour relative performance, and what matters there is overall strength of the league.

[Edgartohof]

but can't justify Mays

??? Huh? You can't justify Mays in your top 5?

660 HR's, best defensive OF in the game at the time (some say of all-time), 156 OPS+, in nearly 11000 AB's and 3000 games!!!

That alone should justify it.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Don't get me wrong, I think Wagner is one of the greatest players of all time. But I can't put him in my top ten. He was a great firelder and had a great average and hits, but otherwise he really isn't in any other records. I was hoping someone could give me some of his factors to help convince me of putting him in my top ten. Thank-you.

[Bill Burgess]

Don't get me wrong, I think Wagner is one of the greatest players of all time. But I can't put him in my top ten. He was a great firelder and had a great average and hits, but otherwise he really isn't in any other records. I was hoping someone could give me some of his factors to help convince me of putting him in my top ten. Thank-you.
Here are a few Honus posts which try to illustrate his status.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=283906&postcount=43

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=382235&postcount=50

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=592352&postcount=151
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have you tried reading the Honus Wagner Thread?
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=13366

[538280]

Wow, no DiMaggio? I was thinking at least top 25. :o

You're right, DiMaggio should be about #20. I'll add him in as well.

[ChrisLDuncan]

??? Huh? You can't justify Mays in your top 5?

660 HR's, best defensive OF in the game at the time (some say of all-time), 156 OPS+, in nearly 11000 AB's and 3000 games!!!

That alone should justify it.

I'm pretty big on OBP...can't put an OF with an OBP of .384 in there...right now my top five consists of Ruth, Bonds, Cobb, Wagner, Williams/Mantle can't decide there. So Mays just misses it.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I think Musial should definitely be ahead of Gehrig. Musial was a better defensive player than Gehrig. A better defensive 1B and also played qutie a bit in left and right field, where he wasn't great but that's still better than Gehrig's solid 1B. Gehrig was a better hitter than Musial, but it was in a much shorter career; Musial still wasn't as good in the same time as Gehrig but it's a lot closer, and with Musial's defensive edge he's probalby almost just as good, and on top of that he has a lot more career value

it doesn't matter how much top level competition was there for Musial. I'm not worried about ink scores or how many times Musial was the best in his league. I'm worried abour relative performance, and what matters there is overall strength of the league.

Ehh, you know how I am with great peaks and high OBPs...so so Gehrig has Musial there so that's why I feel he's ahead. As for Musial's competition, I would say Musial's NL was weaker than Spokes' NL...that's just me.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah, I agree upon checking up a little more. I think I had Aaron too high. I"ve changed it.




You're right, DiMaggio should be about #20. I'll add him in as well.



You are ON FIRE tonight :thumbsup: :applaud:

[Mariano_Rivera]

What happened to the series of the Fever Consensus top 25 threads?

[ChrisLDuncan]

9. Rickey Henderson
14. Roberto Clemente
17. Carl Yazstremski
21. Cal Ripken Jr.
22. Eddie Collins
23. Stan Musial


Henderson, Clemente, and Yaz that high???? Over Collins and Musial? Why's that?

[Bill Burgess]

I changed my list a little. Williams and Cobb, lookiing a little closer, really should be ahead of Aaron. I think I had Aaron a little high.
Hope you're adjusting your Official Opinion Profile as you go.

[Edgartohof]

Don't get me wrong, I think Wagner is one of the greatest players of all time. But I can't put him in my top ten. He was a great firelder and had a great average and hits, but otherwise he really isn't in any other records. I was hoping someone could give me some of his factors to help convince me of putting him in my top ten. Thank-you.

Okay, let's give this a quick shot:

He hosts a 150 OPS+, which is even greater when you add the fact that he is a SS. I believe (correct me if I am wrong), that this is the highest by a SS. And not only did he fill the hole at SS, but he was also an amazing defensive player as well. Many consider him an all-time great defensively, at the 2nd most defensive position.

He dominated his league like few others. He won 8 batting titles, several OBP and Slg. titles as well. He led his league in nearly every category and was top 5 and top 10 pretty much every year.

The only thing he doesn't have is HR's, and that doesn't mean a thing. He played in a league where HR's were a rarity. In fact, his last year was 1917 (when he was age 43), 3 seasons before the liveball came into existence, so he cannot be faulted for that.

You can't say that an amazing all-time great defensive SS, who is also the best offensive SS the game has seen (Rodriguez? - we'll see). He could hurt you in the batters box, on the bases, or out on the field - he was the best no matter where he was. He also could play other positions other than SS (OF, 3B, and 1B), and he played them very well. So he was an extremely versatile player to boot.

He was in the initial group voted into the HOF (with a higher % than Ruth I believe). It doesn't get much better than The Flying Dutchman!

[ChrisLDuncan]

Hope you're adjusting your Official Opinion Profile as you go.

Yeah I think we've all been guilty of not updating that as much as we change our opinions, I only try to update mine when I change more than two or so positions...although I probably should update it now that I've moved Mays up to 7th.

[cardsfanatic]

I'll give this a crack. Add some new flavor to the pot because I believe I'm on the outside of basically every opinion on these forums. :)

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Barry Bonds
4. Willie Mays
5. Roger Clemens
6. Walter Johnson
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Ty Cobb
9. Lefty Grove
10. Stan Musial
11. Joe Dimaggio
12. Joe Morgan
13. Roger Hornsby
14. Mickey Mantle
15. Jimmie Foxx
16. Tris Speaker
17. Tom Seaver
18. Randy Johnson
19. Honus Wagner
20. Alex Rodriguez
21. Mike Schmidt
22. Pedro Martinez
23. Johnny Bench
24. Bob Gibson
25. Manny Ramirez

[Bill Burgess]

I'll give this a crack. Add some new flavor to the pot because I believe I'm on the outside of basically every opinion on these forums. :)

Boy, I'll say! Williams second, Cobb 8th, Morgan 12th, and Wagner buried in 19th. Very - courageous! And bold. And original. At least no one can accuse you of plagiarism! You'll never be a slave to consensus, fashion, or tradition.

[Skin & Bones]

1.) Babe Ruth
2.) Willie Mays
3.) Barry Bonds
4.) Mickey Mantle
5.) Honus Wagner
6.) Ted Williams
7.) Ty Cobb
8.) Hank Aaron
9.) Tris Speaker
10.) Stan Musial
11.) Lou Gehrig
12.) Joe Morgan
13.) Rickey Henderson
14.) Eddie Collins
15.) Roger Hornsby
16.) Frank Robinson
17.) Joe Dimaggio
18.) Nap Lajoie
19.) Mike Schmidt
20.) Arod
21.) Arky Vaughan
22.) Eddie Mathews
23.) George Brett
24.) Jeff Bagwell
25.) Jimmie Foxx

[cardsfanatic]

Boy, I'll say! Williams second, Cobb 8th, Morgan 12th, and Wagner buried in 19th. Very - courageous! And bold. And original. At least no one can accuse you of plagiarism! You'll never be a slave to consensus, fashion, or tradition.

?

I knew you'd have a problem with Cobb and Wagner. But what's the problem with Morgan and Williams? Several lists in this thread have Williams and Morgan rated similarly. In fact, I think Morgan is #12 on two other lists other than mine. IMO, Morgan is the best 2B ever with Hornsby a close second. And yes, I already know there are a ton of Hornsby supporters here who'd love nothing more than to flog me again. What is even more funny is that people love to call me a "homer" because I defend Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds but turn around and tout Joe Morgan, a division rival, over one of the Cardinals best players in franchise history. Anyway, without getting sidetracked too much... I don't think 12-15 range is too high for the best player at a position. And I feel Morgan is just that. Your mileage may vary.

As for Ted Williams, I looked at your list and honestly feel you short changed him and Barry Bonds. You're obviously a fan of old, old, old, OLD school baseball and players. Which that's cool. But not everyone feels baseball has taken a nose dive since 1920 and some of us think players of the newer generations can play the game pretty darn well, too.

Thanks for the input.

[Edgartohof]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Barry Bonds
4. Willie Mays


I'ts looking fine so far!



5. Roger Clemens
6. Walter Johnson
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Ty Cobb


Still definitely within reason



9. Lefty Grove
10. Stan Musial
11. Joe Dimaggio
12. Joe Morgan
13. Roger Hornsby
14. Mickey Mantle


Grove and dimaggio seem a little high, but oh well



15. Jimmie Foxx
16. Tris Speaker
17. Tom Seaver
18. Randy Johnson
19. Honus Wagner


Wagner is definitely too low - learn something about him - he was an interesting person and an OUTSTANDING player



20. Alex Rodriguez
21. Mike Schmidt
22. Pedro Martinez
23. Johnny Bench
24. Bob Gibson
25. Manny Ramirez

Here's where some issues surface - BIG ones!

1.) A-rod may be a bit high, but is within reason
2.) I say the Schmidt is low. You have FIVE pitchers ahead of the number one 3Bman of all-time? Just seems strange
3.) Pedro - a bit high - let him get some innings (though others have him this high too.... I disagree with them as well :) )
4.) Bench - same story as with Schmidt - too low for the best Catcher in the history of the game
5.) Bob Gibson - had a great career and 1 AMAZING season, but is too high for sure
6.).....what to say here.....Ummm...I'm not too sure. Man-Ram is an all-time great hitter, but 25th all time?!?! He is verly little defensive value, and he doesn't have quite the playing time as others on the list (or of those who SHOULD be on the list)

And I should mention a glarring mistake - the omission of HANK AARON - the all-time Home Run King!!!

But this is all just my opinion. If we all thought the same, this site would be boring :) It's the differences which make this all so fun!

[Bill Burgess]

?

I knew you'd have a problem with Cobb and Wagner. But what's the problem with Morgan and Williams? Several lists in this thread have Williams and Morgan rated similarly. In fact, I think Morgan is #12 on two other lists other than mine. IMO, Morgan is the best 2B ever with Hornsby a close second. And yes, I already know there are a ton of Hornsby supporters here who'd love nothing more than to flog me again. What is even more funny is that people love to call me a "homer" because I defend Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds but turn around and tout Joe Morgan, a division rival, over one of the Cardinals best players in franchise history. Anyway, without getting sidetracked too much... I don't think 12-15 range is too high for the best player at a position. And I feel Morgan is just that. Your mileage may vary.

As for Ted Williams, I looked at your list and honestly feel you short changed him and Barry Bonds. You're obviously a fan of old, old, old, OLD school baseball and players. Which that's cool. But not everyone feels baseball has taken a nose dive since 1920 and some of us think players of the newer generations can play the game pretty darn well, too.

Thanks for the input.
I don't want to scare you away, CF. It's your list and you can rank them however you feel is warranted. One of my goals is not not take these things as personally as I used to.

Yeah, I feel Ty/Honus earned a higher ranking, but that's just me. And I might short Teddyboy more than I should. I do like roundedness in my players.

I used to be Barry's main apologist and I had ranked him 4th all time. I was one of the last to down-rank him. He's my favorite current player for the last few years. See him tons, as I live in Bay area.

I have the same problems with the other lists ranking Little Joe higher than 20th. I too rank the greatest 2nd baseman highly. Just disagree on who that is. In fact, I rank 3 2nd basemen in my Top 20. And one in my Top 10.

Don't feel scared of me, my friend. My bark is much worse than my bite. And my bite ain't what it used to be either. Never was really.

[cardsfanatic]

And I should mention a glarring mistake - the omission of HANK AARON - the all-time Home Run King!!!


It's not a mistake on my part. You may see it as such but it was quite intentional. Aaron is the all-time HR king... Pete Rose is the all-time hits king... Nolan Ryan is the all-time strikeout king... and they all have one thing in common. They played an ungodly amount of seasons and in the case of Rose and Aaron, it took them nearly twice as long as the original record holders to break said records. Aaron had like 5-6,000 more AB's than Babe Ruth and only what, 40 more homeruns? He had double the AB's of Mark McGwire and only 150 more HR. Rose, much like Biggio and other players hanging around to break a record, played way past his prime and actually HURT his team by taking up a lineup spot just so he could break the record.

Aaron is not the best homerun hitter ever. Pete Rose is not the best contact hitter ever. They were both solid ballplayers for a very long time. But their records don't give them a pass to the Top 25 All-Time list.

Edit: Actually, hrmmmm, Aaron's rates were far better than I realized. He really should be top 15 on my list. I may amend it tomorrow.

[DoubleX]

Let's see how my list shakes out today (pitchers have their own list, and I don't rank 19th century players or Negro Leaguers because I believe it takes too much conjecture on my part):

1) Babe Ruth
2) Willie Mays
3) Ty Cobb
4) Honus Wagner
5) Ted Williams
6) Hank Aaron
7) Barry Bonds - This is with adjusting for steroids
8) Lou Gehrig
9) Mickey Mantle
10) Stan Musial
11) Rogers Hornsby
12) Tris Speaker
13) Joe DiMaggio
14) Frank Robinson
15) Jimmie Foxx
16) Mike Schmidt
17) Johnny Bench
18) Rickey Henderson
19) Eddie Collins
20) Alex Rodriguez
21) Joe Morgan
22) Napoleon Lajoie
23) Yogi Berra
24) Ken Griffey Jr
25) Mel Ott

Something doesn't quite feel right about the end here...oh well.

[leecemark]

Candidates for best ever;
Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds (if you ignore steroids or think they don't matter much) and possibly
Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson (7)
Guys who are clearly behind at least 1 similar player in the "Best ever" group, but might be better than some of them;
Hank Aaron (Mays), Ted Williams (Ruth) (9)
Other top 10 candidates;
Mike Schmidt, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle (13)
Top 20 candidates;
Lou Gehrig, Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins Rogers Hornsby. Alex Rodriguez and Johnny Bench (easily), plus Yogi Berra, Frank Robinson, Joe DiMaggio and Rickey Henderson (23)
Contending to rounding out my top 25;
Jimmie Foxx, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Mathews, Pop Lloyd (27)
--I feel like I may be neglecting the 19th century guys, but here is just nobody who looks better to me than any of the above 27.
--There are alot of close calls amoungst these players. Josh Gibson has a credible arguement for best player, but I could also see him near the back of the top 20 depending on what you choose to believe about his legend and quality of competion. The other top 10 candidates run up to 13 players and almost any ordering of them is justifiable. I'll give my actual list a little later, but honestly grouping player in a general range is a lot easy to defend than saying Musial is #9 and Speaker #12 or whatever. There are to many variable for that kind of precision.

[Bill Burgess]

Mark,
Nice, creative thinking outside the box. Original. :thumbsup: :applaud:

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

You guys should pick up a copy of "The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Top 100 Players." it is a great book that will give you somewhat of a guide of your list. I really disagree with some of the lists. Either great players are too low or decent players are too high. It just bothers me. A-rod is good, but he shouldn't be in the top 25. Dimaggio was also better than some people think.

[natsnsoxfan]

Henderson, Clemente, and Yaz that high???? Over Collins and Musial? Why's that?

I completely forgot about them until my last few and just kind of threw them in there at the end. The Roberto one i will admit i was tainted on because although im far too young to have seen him play he was the first player i ever knew of and has since been my favorite of all time.

[538280]

You guys should pick up a copy of "The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Top 100 Players." it is a great book that will give you somewhat of a guide of your list. I really disagree with some of the lists. Either great players are too low or decent players are too high. It just bothers me. A-rod is good, but he shouldn't be in the top 25. Dimaggio was also better than some people think.

The Sporting News list was a joke. It focused on basically nothing but a few glorified quotes and counting stats. It had no deeper understanding of the statistics.

[cardsfanatic]

You guys should pick up a copy of "The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Top 100 Players." it is a great book that will give you somewhat of a guide of your list.


Seen the list and while it wasn't a terrible list it didn't make me scratch my head and say "gee, now that's the best list I ever saw, no need for anyone else to bother making one", either.



I really disagree with some of the lists.


You have every right to. I'm sure we all disagree with every single list but our own somewhere or another.



Either great players are too low or decent players are too high.


You're losing me here. Are they just not teaching adjectives and their meaning /usage in schools these days? There's not a single player on any list in this entire thread that is "decent". It's like people calling Scott Rolen "below average" or the people who were recently calling Roger Clemens an "above average pitcher." Mammoth undersells on all fronts. Every players I've seen listed is honestly no worse than #100 overall. And considering that 100 out of 37,000... that's upper 99th percentile, aka, pretty danged excellent and a far cry better than "decent."



A-rod is good, but he shouldn't be in the top 25.

You're the second or third (I lose count) person to say this. At this point I'm forced to ask, why? The guy has simply staggering numbers. He's player two premium positions in his career. He was a gold glove caliber SS, the gold bar defensive position. He posted mammoth numbers and had peak seasons at SS that no other SS has ever even sniffed. He had peak seasons that the vast majority of PLAYERS period haven't sniffed. If MVP voting weren't such a sham he'd easily have (and deserve) six MVP's right now. He's going to be the youngest person ever to 500 HR. He's well on his way to shattering basically every record known to man. And did I mention he's 31 and already near the top of every single leader board?

The guy is top 25 right now, IMO. And I wouldn't be shocked if he weren't top 5 by the time all is said and done. Possibly even 1 or 2, if he can stay healthy and productive into his late 30's.

[DoubleX]

You're the second or third (I lose count) person to say this. At this point I'm forced to ask, why? The guy has simply staggering numbers. He's player two premium positions in his career. He was a gold glove caliber SS, the gold bar defensive position. He posted mammoth numbers and had peak seasons at SS that no other SS has ever even sniffed. He had peak seasons that the vast majority of PLAYERS period haven't sniffed. If MVP voting weren't such a sham he'd easily have (and deserve) six MVP's right now. He's going to be the youngest person ever to 500 HR. He's well on his way to shattering basically every record known to man. And did I mention he's 31 and already near the top of every single leader board?

The guy is top 25 right now, IMO. And I wouldn't be shocked if he weren't top 5 by the time all is said and done. Possibly even 1 or 2, if he can stay healthy and productive into his late 30's.

I was thinking of responding to the A-Rod comment, but you articulated my thoughts so well that there is no need for me to follow up. The only thing I'll add is that when all is said and done, the only thing that might hurt A-Rod's ranking is the move to 3B because he had such amazingly rare value at SS, but that might just be the difference between top 5 and top 10 all time.

[TRfromBR]

I'm going to have sign off for the evening, Gentlemen. My eyes must be getting blurry, because I thought I had read on a couple of posts that Joe Morgan was greater than Joltin' Joe. Being that no owner or manager in his right mind would ever take Joey M over Joey D, I know my eyes must be failing me. I know any such idea would never make it to second base. Hence, I'm going to head to bed early. (I sure hope I don't have nightmares about the '36 Yankees picking Morgan over DiMaggio.)

[digglahhh]

You guys should pick up a copy of "The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Top 100 Players." it is a great book that will give you somewhat of a guide of your list. I really disagree with some of the lists. Either great players are too low or decent players are too high. It just bothers me. A-rod is good, but he shouldn't be in the top 25. Dimaggio was also better than some people think.

Would that help us achieve the enlightenment to put two pitchers (Koufax and Ryan) who barely crack the back end of most people's top 20 PITCHERS in the top 25 PLAYERS of all time list?

Honestly, a very good case can be made that your list is the most questionable of all that have been posted.

[538280]

I'll give this a crack. Add some new flavor to the pot because I believe I'm on the outside of basically every opinion on these forums. :)

Not on the outside of me-I really like your list. I would like to see Rickey Henderson somewhere in the top 25 though. Henderson has all time great longevity and is one of the best basestealers of all time. With his SBs his OPS+ equivalent is about a 140 and he was an excellent fielding left fielder with one of the best seasons ever in 1990, and faced very tough competition on a historical level.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

#1 Honus Wagner
#2 Babe Ruth
#3 Ty Cobb
#4 Hank Aaron
#5 Willie Mays (Ok, I've moved him ahead of Collins again)
#6 Stan Musial
#7 Eddie Collins
#8 Mickey Mantle
#9 Tris Speaker
#10 Rogers Hornsby
#11 Frank Robinson
#12 Lou Gehrig
#13 Mike Schmidt
#14 Ted Williams
#15 George Brett
#16 Eddie Mathews
#17 Johnny Bench
#18 Mickey Cochrane
#19 Yogi Berra
#20 Jimmie Foxx
#21 Rickey Henderson
#22 Alex Rodriguez
#23 Joe Dimaggio
#24 Frank Thomas
#25 Joe Morgan

[swingman24]

1.Babe Ruth
2.Ty Cobb (after my last list of top ten hitters in which Cobb was #9 I did some in depth research on him as well as all the dead ball players and gained a different perspective and new respect for them)
3.Willie Mays
4.Mickey Mantle
5.Hank Aaron
6.Stan Musial
7.Ted Williams
8.Lou Gehrig
10.Honus Wagner
11.Rogers Hornsby
12.Mike Schimdt
13.Joe Dimaggio
14.Tris Speaker
15.Frank Robinson
16.Barry Bonds (Yes,I know many of you do not have him this far down but I think you can guess my reasons for this so I don't wish to get into a discussion about it. Until evidence comes out otherwise this is where he stays in my eyes.)
17.Johnny Bench
18.Jimmie Foxx
19.Eddie Collins
20.Ken Griffey Jr.
21.Alex Rodiguez
22.Joe Morgan
23.Rickey Henderson
24.Frank Thomas
25.Yogi Berra

[Bill Burgess]

2.Ty Cobb (after my last list of top ten hitters in which Cobb was #9 I did some in depth research on him as well as all the dead ball players and gained a different perspective and new respect for them)
10.Honus Wagner

Whew! Scared me there for a moment, SM. But what about Honus? Did you skip reading about Dutchman?

[swingman24]

No not really,but it just seems that looking at the stats and just the stats,as I am fully aware of the men that Wagner and Cobb were,that Cobb was perhaps not far and away better than the other deadball players but certainly looks better on paper. Although guys like Wagner and Speaker were unbelievable and please be patient with me as my list might change over the next few weeks and months. As I am trying to put the deadball era in place because I held the modern players in such high regard,so it's a learning process for me. I am just trying to put both era's in perspective. I always tend to rate players with power higher,it's a childhood flaw,I'm working on it.

[Westlake]

#14 Ted Williams


Have you been drinkin' whatever it is Bill drinks?