Is Manny Ramirez the most underrrated player in todays game? [Archive]

Edgartohof

04-20-2007, 09:13 PM

A simple question. Do you think Ramirez is the mos underrated player in todays game? Not under talked about, but underrated.

I definitely would not say that.

He may get underrated at times becaue Papi in Boston has taken more of the spotlight the last few years, but he gets all of the credit he deserves as a hitter (which is the only thing he gets credit for - assuming you don't dock him for his D, which some might be inclined to do).

He is a tremendous hitter, one of a select few, and I do believe that he gets full recognition for it.

I personally have him ranked in my top 100, so at worst, he's there for me, and you can't be the MOST underrated player (even just in todays game) if I have you in the top 100.

Edgartohof

04-20-2007, 09:15 PM

I think A-rod is the most underrated player today but Manny is also very underrated.

I just don't understand how people can say that the best players in the game are underrated.

Everyone knows Arod's the best in the game, and that Manny is a tremendous hitter.

It's like saying that Babe Ruth is underrated.

Well how much higher can you rate a player?

If you are the best, it's hard to be better.

Westlake

04-20-2007, 09:27 PM

I just don't understand how people can say that the best players in the game are underrated.

Everyone knows Arod's the best in the game, and that Manny is a tremendous hitter.

It's like saying that Babe Ruth is underrated.

Well how much higher can you rate a player?

If you are the best, it's hard to be better.

Well, NOW they do. Not last year though.

natsnsoxfan

04-20-2007, 10:19 PM

Edgartohof

04-20-2007, 10:26 PM

Manny plays the wall better than just about anyone ive seen

could that be because he has gotten to play the wall more than anyone you have seen?

It helps when you know what to expect.

Williamsburg2599

04-20-2007, 10:27 PM

I think A-rod is the most underrated player today but Manny is also very underrated.

Have you turned on Baseball tonight...tonight? They should rename it A-rod Tonight. Sure, the media trashes him when he struggles, but as you can see if you turn on any sports show lately, they praise him when he does well too.

Westlake

04-20-2007, 10:27 PM

could that be because he has gotten to play the wall more than anyone you have seen?

It helps when you know what to expect.

That's true, but it doesn't mean he doesn't play it well. Most people I've heard talk about the subject say he plays it better than anyone has since Yaz.

Edgartohof

04-20-2007, 10:30 PM

That's true, but it doesn't mean he doesn't play it well. Most people I've heard talk about the subject say he plays it better than anyone has since Yaz.

Oh, you are right, I've seen him, he does do okay with balls off the wall, it's just getting to the balls that drop in front, or off the the sides (and every other one).

I do agree, that if he did put his full effort into it, he could be average/maybe above average. I just don't see him as very good no matter what. And I think he has realized a long time ago. He knows that it's not worth the effort sometimes to him...all he has to do is go up and hit a double of his own off the wall, and everything is even - a lot easier for him than to get a great jump on every ball hit to him.

Williamsburg2599

04-20-2007, 10:31 PM

That's true, but it doesn't mean he doesn't play it well. Most people I've heard talk about the subject say he plays it better than anyone has since Yaz.

Troy O'Leary played the wall pretty good too. Manny seems to lack urgency when in the field, which can be good in some situations, but bad in a lot too. Like tonight on A-rods double ( I think) he just picked the ball up and tossed it into the infield like he was tossing a third out into the crowd. He has made some nice catches though and plays Fenway smart.

Westlake

04-20-2007, 10:39 PM

Oh, you are right, I've seen him, he does do okay with balls off the wall, it's just getting to the balls that drop in front, or off the the sides (and every other one).

I do agree, that if he did put his full effort into it, he could be average/maybe above average. I just don't see him as very good no matter what. And I think he has realized a long time ago. He knows that it's not worth the effort sometimes to him...all he has to do is go up and hit a double of his own off the wall, and everything is even - a lot easier for him than to get a great jump on every ball hit to him.

I wonder even if he tried if he could. He's pretty slow. Thank god he makes up for it with his bat.

plask_stirlac

04-21-2007, 09:07 AM

I cannot grasp Manny being the most underrated player. Ty Wigginton, there's a player one never hears about. Jason Bay. Raul Ibanez. Ian Kinsler last year. Morgan Ensberg just because he hit .235.

starkeeper

04-21-2007, 11:00 AM

In Manny's eyes he is.

PJ-34

04-21-2007, 11:26 AM

Williamsburg2599

04-21-2007, 12:06 PM

In Manny's eyes he is.

I doubt it. Manny may be a little odd sometimes, but he's no egomaniac.

dl4060

04-21-2007, 01:03 PM

could that be because he has gotten to play the wall more than anyone you have seen?

It helps when you know what to expect.

Familiarity explains why he plays it well, though it does not detract from the value in playing it well. I thought Jim Rice played it better from what I saw, though I was very young when he was a star, and I've heard great things about Yaz, although I was too young for him. I would tend to doubt that Manny played the monster well when he was in Cleveland, although I really don't remember and thus cannot speak with any accuracy.

Manny goes through the motions in the outfield more than just about anyone I have ever seen. He throws the ball sidearm half the time. He really seems as if he would rather be somewhere else. There was one play last night where I could have sworn he had his cap on backwards. I'm sure I was seeing things, but Manny fiddling with his cap while the ball was being pitched, not really paying attention, and then having to chase a ball with his hat backwards or sideways would not surprise me, maybe he was adjusting his headphones.:laugh I would still rather have had him over the last five years than anyone else in the American League with the possible exception of Arod.

rsuriyop

04-21-2007, 05:45 PM

Westlake

04-21-2007, 05:51 PM

Is Manny Ramirez the most underrrated player in todays game?

Well, for one thing I'd say that Garry Sheffield is probably at least as good if not better than Manny. Yet he doesn't appear to get as much praise. I could probably say the same for Lance Berkman as well. So to answer your question, no, I do not think that Manny Ramirez is the most unerrated player in today's game.

Except that Sheffied has been pretty sporadic during his career, and Manny has been a model of consistency. And personally, I think Manny has had about 4 years better than Berkman's best year. Ortiz is closer to Berkman than Manny is IMO.

natsnsoxfan

04-21-2007, 07:15 PM

Is Manny Ramirez the most underrrated player in todays game?

Well, for one thing I'd say that Garry Sheffield is probably at least as good if not better than Manny.

I couldn't disagree more. Manny is a sure fire first ballot HOF'er and Sheff is borderline at best even with his pretty good defense. Manny has also never missed a significant amount of time to an ACTUAL injury (not last years 'bad knee') and Sheff has missed a fair amount of time due to injuries and has been quite injury prone over the course of his career. In addition, Manny has played approximately 14 seasons, counting this one, and Sheff has played 19 counting this one, yet Sheff's numbers still aren't as good as Manny's despite the extra 5 season played. Hes not TOO far behind in most main offensive categories but you would expect him to be able to make up how much he is behind in a full 5 years.

Sheff isn't even close to Manny in my book. MAYBE if he managed to stay healthier throughout his career.

Skin & Bones

04-21-2007, 08:13 PM

Miguel Cabrera is, IMO.

SoxSon

04-22-2007, 11:23 AM

In Manny's eyes he is.

It doesn't seem like Manny could care any less about how he's rated.

natsnsoxfan

04-22-2007, 12:07 PM

I agree, if he did he would probably actually show up for the All-Star games. On note of underrated i think Adam Everett, Jose Lopez, and Ryan Zimmerman are all pretty underrated.

ChrisLDuncan

04-22-2007, 01:36 PM

Roy Oswalt and Travis Hafner are more underrated than Manny IMO.

slugger33

04-22-2007, 03:59 PM

redlegsfan21

04-22-2007, 08:05 PM

Aaron Harang is one of the most underrated players. Last year he led the NL in wins, strikeouts, and complete games. And the only major difference between 2005 and 2006 is the K/9. But everything else is the same. Many people believe Arroyo is the best SP on the Reds but I would go with Harang in Game 7 of the World Series (among Reds SP).

baseball_83

04-23-2007, 07:07 PM

In a word.... no.

natsnsoxfan

04-23-2007, 07:27 PM

Carlos Guillen is the most under rated player in MLB.

Last season stats: .320 avg. 16 home runs 85 RBI 100 runs scored

He hit .320 in 2005 and .318 in 2004, so last season wasn't just a career year.

Apparently the Tigers don't think so. Look at the contract he got.

After thinking about this a little more I don't necessarily think that the guys we've mentioned are under rated because people who really now baseball and pay a lot of attention to it know how good these guys really are. They're more under appreciated or under-talked-about.

For example, most of us here know how good of a hitter Carlos Guillen is and how good of a fielder Adam Everett is. But, if you walked up to a casual baseball fan they probably wouldn't know them real well, if at all, but you can be almost positive that they would know who guys like A-Rod, Manny, and Ortiz are.

To me, an underrated guy would be someone like Alex Cora. Hes a very smart player, knows what to do and where to be and always seems to do something to help the team win when hes in the line up.

EricDavis

04-24-2007, 01:00 AM

natsnsoxfan, you know there are more people in baseball than the ones that play their home games at Fenway right? You rule out Carlos Guillen and Adam Everett as candidates for most underrated because instead they're underappreciated? What does that even mean? And then you go with Alex Cora because he's a Boston guy who's off to a great start...

There's more to life than Boston.

Westlake

04-24-2007, 02:09 AM

There's more to life than Boston.

There is?!?!?!?!

Chris from NY

04-24-2007, 02:55 AM

There is?!?!?!?!
Yeah, but don't worry, it's only the AL East.

In terms of underrated/underappreciated, let's talk about John McDonald. He plays Short Stop, Second Base, and Third Base for the Blue Jays. He plays fantastic defence, and can drop down a sac bunt when he needs to. He's always been an all glove-no hit player, but this year he looks more comfortable at the plate than he's ever been. When I think of underrated, I don't think of Many Ramirez or an other big star. I think of guys like McDonald who do all the little things to help a team win.

natsnsoxfan

04-24-2007, 04:47 AM

Yeah, but don't worry, it's only the AL East.

In terms of underrated/underappreciated, let's talk about John McDonald. He plays Short Stop, Second Base, and Third Base for the Blue Jays. He plays fantastic defence, and can drop down a sac bunt when he needs to. He's always been an all glove-no hit player, but this year he looks more comfortable at the plate than he's ever been. When I think of underrated, I don't think of Many Ramirez or an other big star. I think of guys like McDonald who do all the little things to help a team win.

That exactly what i was getting at, i just used Cora as an example because he was the first one that came to mind cause i seem him so much. In the case of the Reds you could probably go with Freel.

I rule them out because people who know a lot about baseball and follow it religiously know how good they are.

plask_stirlac

04-24-2007, 11:18 AM

Captain Cold Nose

04-24-2007, 12:10 PM

There is?!?!?!?!

There's Texas.

Westlake

04-24-2007, 12:15 PM

There's Texas.

Boston/Austin..... same thing.

natsnsoxfan

04-24-2007, 12:45 PM

If a player is in MLB based on how they do the little things and play defense, it's hard for me to call them underrated. Do the little things, but hitting is a big thing. Guys like McDonald and Alex Gonzalez can't hit and that's costly.

It helps when a guy can play defense and hit some like Freel or Melky Cabrera.

They don't neccesarily have to hit the lights out, i think.

Gonzo hit roughly .280 with 14 homeruns and 59 RBI's and played GG caliber defense but got no accolades outside of RSN, he didn't even win the GG even though just about everyone knows how much better he was than just about any SS in the AL last year.

I don't think that you neccesarily have to hit well overall but if you can come up with a timely hit now and again and play good/great defense and do something to help the team win whenever you play.

Westlake

04-24-2007, 01:02 PM

Gonzo hit .255 last year, with 9 bombs and 50 RBI.

digglahhh

04-24-2007, 01:08 PM

At the risk of starting a debate, I will give the same answer I always give to these questions:

Derek Jeter is the simultaneous holder of both the most overrated and most underrated titles.

Ghost of Hans

04-24-2007, 01:18 PM

Westlake

04-24-2007, 01:26 PM

According to this guy, (http://www.insidethebook.com/manny.shtml) Manny might not be overrated but he sure is overpaid. His defensive statistics and rep are pretty bad for the most part. He isn't much of a baserunner.

So no, I don't think he's underrated as a player, but he might be as a hitter.

You can have all the Melvin Mora's in the world getting you better "dollars per run over replacement per year", but that isn't going to win you a World Series.

Captain Cold Nose

04-24-2007, 01:28 PM

You can have all the Melvin Mora's in the world getting you better "dollars per run over replacement per year", but that isn't going to win you a World Series.

It doesn't make Ramirez underrated, either. But I digress. Just so you know, Westlake, I'm making a general statement here, not just addressing you.

I think Ramirez has unfairly taken a back seat to David Ortiz, despite producing similar offensive numbers, but, as so many have said, for much longer. But that doesn't necessarily make him underrated. The whole Manny being Manny thing hammered home by ESPN has obscured what amounts to a legendary career as a hitter. But his hitting is well-acknowledged, he makes the all-star team on merit. He'll get elected to the HOF first-ballot. There are many players who aren't even on the radar, so to say Manny Ramirez is the most underrated player in baseball is to not acknowledge there are a heckuva lot of players in MLB currently.

Westlake

04-24-2007, 01:32 PM

It doesn't make Ramirez underrated, either.

That wasn't my point.

Ghost of Hans

04-24-2007, 01:39 PM

Westlake:

You can have all the Melvin Mora's in the world getting you better "dollars per run over replacement per year", but that isn't going to win you a World Series.

Perhaps, but since most teams have a pretty tight budget, inefficiency in one area causes problems in other areas. These problems prevent the teams from addressing weaknesses.

Westlake

04-24-2007, 01:46 PM

Westlake:

Perhaps, but since most teams have a pretty tight budget, inefficiency in one area causes problems in other areas. These problems prevent the teams from addressing weaknesses.

That's true. I guess Mannys contract works well with Manny's team. A team like the Twins wouldn't be too smart to take on the 20 mil a year, but the Sox can.

Captain Cold Nose

04-24-2007, 01:46 PM

Westlake:

Perhaps, but since most teams have a pretty tight budget, inefficiency in one area causes problems in other areas. These problems prevent the teams from addressing weaknesses.

Budget isn't really an issue for Boston, though. One reason they haven't been able to trade him. I do think those rumors are overblown, though. Ramirez is costly because it's a bat like that you build a winner around. You do have to pay for that.

Ghost of Hans

04-24-2007, 02:21 PM

Captain Cold Nose:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Hans
Westlake:

Perhaps, but since most teams have a pretty tight budget, inefficiency in one area causes problems in other areas. These problems prevent the teams from addressing weaknesses.

Budget isn't really an issue for Boston, though. One reason they haven't been able to trade him. I do think those rumors are overblown, though. Ramirez is costly because it's a bat like that you build a winner around. You do have to pay for that.

Both you and Westlake make excellent points, but the bloated contract indicates that the market doesn't underrate Ramirez's talent, and this in turn implies that baseball men respect his ability. And can we call a player "underrated" if most teams can't acquire him? An underrated player should be relatively easy to pick up, at least for a shrewd GM. :twocents:

natsnsoxfan

04-24-2007, 02:37 PM

Gonzo hit .255 last year, with 9 bombs and 50 RBI.

whoops, my b i was looking at 1999 for some reason....

natsnsoxfan

04-24-2007, 02:48 PM

Captain Cold Nose:

Both you and Westlake make excellent points, but the bloated contract indicates that the market doesn't underrate Ramirez's talent, and this in turn implies that baseball men respect his ability. And can we call a player "underrated" if most teams can't acquire him? An underrated player should be relatively easy to pick up, at least for a shrewd GM. :twocents:

That is exactly what i was trying to get at earlier in the discussion.

Perhaps, but since most teams have a pretty tight budget, inefficiency in one area causes problems in other areas. These problems prevent the teams from addressing weaknesses.

That may be true but the smaller market teams like Minnesota can still survive by growing and developing players like Manny that are younger and cheaper and possibly better in certain cases and then trading them away once there contract year approaches and they have established themselves to get MORE younger cheaper players.

redlegsfan21

04-24-2007, 05:13 PM

In a word.... no.

Major League Win Totals Since 2005 All-Star Break
J. Santana-31
J. Beckett-27
E. Santana-27
A. Pettite-26
R. Oswalt-26
B. Zito-26
A. Harang-25
J. Blanton-25
J. Contreras-25
T. Glavine-25
R. Johnson-25
D. Lowe-25
C. Zambrano-25

Now if I'm correct, Aaron Harang and Carlos Zambrano have the most wins on losing teams.

ChrisLDuncan

04-24-2007, 05:17 PM

Boston/Austin..... same thing.

University Texas at Boston ;)

natsnsoxfan

04-24-2007, 05:43 PM

Major League Win Totals Since 2005 All-Star Break
J. Santana-31
J. Beckett-27
E. Santana-27
A. Pettite-26
R. Oswalt-26
B. Zito-26
A. Harang-25
J. Blanton-25
J. Contreras-25
T. Glavine-25
R. Johnson-25
D. Lowe-25
C. Zambrano-25

Now if I'm correct, Aaron Harang and Carlos Zambrano have the most wins on losing teams.

i think that was directed more at the is manny underrated question, not Harang.

Im a little surprised at how high Ervin Santana is on that list though.

redlegsfan21

04-24-2007, 05:50 PM

i think that was directed more at the is manny underrated question, not Harang.

Im a little surprised at how high Ervin Santana is on that list though.

I said earlier in the thread that I believed that Harang was the most underrated (at least, pitcher).

Westlake

04-24-2007, 06:16 PM

Major League Win Totals Since 2005 All-Star Break
J. Santana-31
J. Beckett-27
E. Santana-27
A. Pettite-26
R. Oswalt-26
B. Zito-26
A. Harang-25
J. Blanton-25
J. Contreras-25
T. Glavine-25
R. Johnson-25
D. Lowe-25
C. Zambrano-25

Now if I'm correct, Aaron Harang and Carlos Zambrano have the most wins on losing teams.

If i believed wins were a true indicator of how good a pitcher was, I might buy into this. But this just shows how they aren't. Harang is not beter than Zambrano, Beckett has not been better than Oswalt, and so on... Harang may be underrated, but his win totals have nothing to do with it.

redlegsfan21

04-24-2007, 07:01 PM

If i believed wins were a true indicator of how good a pitcher was, I might buy into this. But this just shows how they aren't. Harang is not beter than Zambrano, Beckett has not been better than Oswalt, and so on... Harang may be underrated, but his win totals have nothing to do with it.

I know wins are not a good indicator to how good a pitcher is but when you compare that to the team's wins (the most important stat in baseball), it gives you a decent idea on how good a pitcher is.

yankeeman590

04-24-2007, 07:29 PM

as a hitter, manny ramirez is not underrated...i think it's because big papi comes up in the clutch so many times, and boston fans love him like a son so he gets the spotlight so much. ramirez is probably one of the most feared hitters in the AL, and that's not underrated IMO...guys like miguel cabrera, jermaine dye, and vernon wells are more underrated hitters than ramirez.

maximum jack

04-25-2007, 08:51 AM

Wasn't Manny the leading vote-getter for last year's all-star selection? People who don't follow sports have heard of Manny Ramirez.

digglahhh

04-25-2007, 09:06 AM

That's true. I guess Mannys contract works well with Manny's team. A team like the Twins wouldn't be too smart to take on the 20 mil a year, but the Sox can.

That's not to say that the Twins wouldn't have been willing to give him that kind of cash if they could afford to, or if it wouldn't cripple their ability to fill out the roster with anything other than fringe MLers or hangers-on.

I always thought that SF should have tried to go after him and find a way to fit him in, especially during the A-Rod/waivers fiasco. They have cash. He's a draw, which is important given SF's financial situation with the stadium and what not. Plus, he was one of the few players in the league who would have truly forced pitchers to at least try to pitch to Bonds.

TonyStarks

04-25-2007, 01:19 PM

Carlos Guillen is the most under rated player in MLB.

Last season stats: .320 avg. 16 home runs 85 RBI 100 runs scored

He hit .320 in 2005 and .318 in 2004, so last season wasn't just a career year.

Word!

Carlos Guillen is the classic true definition of an 'under-rated' player.
Everytime I look up...the guy is just putting up numbers. Yet, we never hear about him on Baseball Tonight.

SoxSon

04-25-2007, 02:25 PM

I know wins are not a good indicator to how good a pitcher is but when you compare that to the team's wins (the most important stat in baseball), it gives you a decent idea on how good a pitcher is.

Actually, it also could give you an idea of how a pitcher is simply serviceable on an otherwise mediocre-at-best team. That's not pointed at any team in particular; it's just that wins are such a relative stat. An average pitcher could have a disproportionate number of wins on a bad team, making that pitcher look much better than he is (if "better" is being defined by wins, of course).

Westlake

04-25-2007, 02:26 PM

Wasn't Manny the leading vote-getter for last year's all-star selection? People who don't follow sports have heard of Manny Ramirez.

Very good point. Didnt remember that.

EricDavis

04-25-2007, 02:34 PM

Anyone see Manny's throw last night? It was nice. And they showed him cutoff a throw from Johnny Damon a while back with a diving stop. And then make a relay from his knees.
He's a brilliant outfielder. [/sarcasm]

natsnsoxfan

04-25-2007, 03:43 PM

I said earlier in the thread that I believed that Harang was the most underrated (at least, pitcher).

I know, but i think when he said "in a word,.... no" he was reffering to the original question in the thread, not your point about Harang.

redlegsfan21

04-25-2007, 08:32 PM

I know, but i think when he said "in a word,.... no" he was reffering to the original question in the thread, not your point about Harang.

OK, well it was right under my post, I naturally assumed wrong.

Dev518

04-27-2007, 11:20 AM

Manny's D is very underrated.

Manny plays the wall better than just about anyone ive seen and if he wasn't so lazy and actually TRIED more in the OF i think that he would be a good bit above average defender. He also has a quick release with his arm and gets a fair amount of assists in the OF.

I think his offense is slightly underrated at times, i dont think people realize how good of an average hitter he is for one.
It's his home park, he batter play it off the wall well. His defence really does suck though. The most effort I've seen him use on a play is when for no logical reason he dove for a ball that Damon was throwing to third and it lead to another run scoring.

poopynumnum

04-29-2007, 05:31 PM

Are you kidding me?!?

natsnsoxfan

04-29-2007, 06:14 PM

It's his home park, he batter play it off the wall well. His defence really does suck though. The most effort I've seen him use on a play is when for no logical reason he dove for a ball that Damon was throwing to third and it lead to another run scoring.

ill give you that (gotta admit that was one of the funniest things ive seen on a ball field though :applaud: ). Hes not the worst fielder in the OF ever like people make him seem though, hes slightly below average and hes better than Canseco was and thats good enough given how much he hits.

wilkerson_rulz-06

04-29-2007, 06:41 PM

Nah, if anything, he's overrated.

Back-to-Back-to-Back

04-29-2007, 10:59 PM

Vadimir Guerrero...

Westlake

04-29-2007, 11:39 PM

Nah, if anything, he's overrated.

Overrated by whom?

SHOELESSJOE3

04-30-2007, 05:01 AM

How could Manny be underrated, why does anyone think he is, what are they looking at. He's highly rated by a great number on all the message boards I frequent. Ever watch when he comes to bat on any televised games. The broadcasters heap all kinds of praise on him, dangerous with two strikes, he's an RBI machine, you don't want to face him in a clutch situation.

I can't imagiune how anyone believes he is underatted, by who.