Albert Pujols

[ChrisLDuncan]

He's off to a slow start, not jumping on his back, why isn't the media all over him? Can you imagine if A-Rod got off to this start, why isn't it the same for Pujols?

[STLCards2]

He's off to a slow start, not jumping on his back, why isn't the media all over him? Can you imagine if A-Rod got off to this start, why isn't it the same for Pujols?

Several reasons:

1. A-Rod has gotten a stigma of being a "choker." A few bad games, and it becomes, "Here we go again."

2. Last time I checked, New York gets a little more attention than St. Louis.

3. Albert is getting tons of heat here. Albert's slow start is all local media is talking about.

4. Albert has never had a stretch this bad in his life. Nobody is expecting it to continue. People have a perception that A-Rod is a choke artist and can't handle the pressure of New York. After he wins his second N.Y. MVP we will see about that.

[geezer]

1. He plays is St. Louis, not in New York
2. It's April, not October
3. Give them time to recover his normal pace
4. Pujols is not a media person.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well I'm giving him a break, the dude's aproach is flawless. He won an MVP in 2005, and A-Rod's had good post seasons...I just don't see why on ESPN he's not feeling the heat. He's the unanimous #1 fantasy pick, so he's high profile for sure...right up there with A-Rod. What's it like in St. Louis? I hear that's the best baseball town in the country with the most forgiving fans.

[ElHalo]

What's it like in St. Louis? I hear that's the best baseball town in the country with the most forgiving fans.

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

[plask_stirlac]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

That's one definition.

Also baseball fans know the season lasts 162 and there's still 8 teams who proceed after that. Pujols will return to his career norms over time.

[AMG]

He's off to a slow start, not jumping on his back, why isn't the media all over him? Can you imagine if A-Rod got off to this start, why isn't it the same for Pujols?

If Pujols played in NY the media would be all over his slow start, and so would the fans.

[sds416]

Well I'm giving him a break, the dude's aproach is flawless. He won an MVP in 2005, and A-Rod's had good post seasons...I just don't see why on ESPN he's not feeling the heat. He's the unanimous #1 fantasy pick, so he's high profile for sure...right up there with A-Rod. What's it like in St. Louis? I hear that's the best baseball town in the country with the most forgiving fans.

What the hell do you want, Ravitch to hold up a cross and have Gammons drive home the nails live on Baseball Tonite? Albert has taken a few little shots here and there on ESPN lately, I think it was Phillips who referred to him as the "Sunday Slugger" the other day, due to the fact that the long balls he has gotten this season have come on Sunday.

A-Chokin Rod has the most overpaid contract in baseball, and plays in the absolute pit of media coverage. If he choked his ass off in the postseason in Texas or Seattle, people would have taken notice for about 15 minutes and it would have vaporized. However, when you are in the media capital of the world, on the Yankees, and have the propensity to say stupid things like he does, you get the heat that he has gotten, most all of it well deserved.

Until he does something to prove otherwise, he's become Mr. April, which is a far cry from Mr. October and about as worthwile a title to hold being crowned the best hockey player in the Bahamas.

[foxxx]

Being a great baseball city/fan and being a forgiving fan are not two different things. Just because they can forgive someone for playing poorly does not mean that the fans do not care. Maybe the fans also appreciate the GAME of baseball, not just their team. Because you see, thats what a real fan does, they love the GAME, not just their team. Plus it is a lot easier to be forgiving when you only have one team in your city, and you can appreciate the good times and the bad without overreacting, you know, like an adult would. I feel like it would be a little bit more difficult to understand for a two team city, since if one team is doing poorly they can just go root for the other. That way they never have to grow and mature as a baseball fan. Either that or both teams do poorly and then they don't care at all.

[holyroman]

Add Berkman to the list of struggling perennial sluggers who is struggling so far. Thank god we have Carlos Lee to offset those struggles right now. The schedule makers did not have their thinking caps on this offseason either and that isn't helping offensive players get in a groove.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Add Berkman to the list of struggling perennial sluggers who is struggling so far. Thank god we have Carlos Lee to offset those struggles right now. The schedule makers did not have their thinking caps on this offseason either and that isn't helping offensive players get in a groove.

So Pujols is in good company. And, as Pujols has put together a little something of late, Berkman should get there soon, too. That's what good hitters do.

[hubkittel]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

i live in stl and have been a cards fan all my life and i can say that the whole breaking furniture thing is not really our way. having said that, i think that some teeth are beginning to be nashed over pujols' slump (a slump, btw, that extends back into spring training). "what's wrong with pujols" is a major topic of conversation and would be getting a lot of coverage on tv and sports talk radio if it wasn't for the imus thing and the tragedy at VT. those two topics have sucked a lot of the air out of the room over the last two weeks.

here's a couple of links to stl media coverage of The Slump (as it will be refered to from now on); first is HoFer rick hummel's column on it (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/B63731C170AD553A862572BB0066C39F?OpenDocument) and second is a blog entry (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/4/13/84111/0934#commenttop)at viva el birdos that compares a few other 35 ab stretches from pujols that are similiar to this one.

[ChrisLDuncan]

What the hell do you want, Ravitch to hold up a cross and have Gammons drive home the nails live on Baseball Tonite? Albert has taken a few little shots here and there on ESPN lately, I think it was Phillips who referred to him as the "Sunday Slugger" the other day, due to the fact that the long balls he has gotten this season have come on Sunday.

A-Chokin Rod has the most overpaid contract in baseball, and plays in the absolute pit of media coverage. If he choked his ass off in the postseason in Texas or Seattle, people would have taken notice for about 15 minutes and it would have vaporized. However, when you are in the media capital of the world, on the Yankees, and have the propensity to say stupid things like he does, you get the heat that he has gotten, most all of it well deserved.

Until he does something to prove otherwise, he's become Mr. April, which is a far cry from Mr. October and about as worthwile a title to hold being crowned the best hockey player in the Bahamas.

A-Rod isn't all that overpaid, when he signed the contract he was a short stop with 50 HR potential, that's one hell of a player no matter which way you slice it. As far as what I want, well nothing really, I just want some consistency. I want players to be treated fairly through out, and I think it's BS how much crap A-Rod gets and Pujols gets nothing.

[hubkittel]

What's it like in St. Louis?

it's pretty simple. pujols is going to get unconditional support in stl as long as the fans believe he's putting forth an honest effort. as long as pujols isn't giving away ab's, as long as he isn't taking The Slump with him into the field, as long as he doesn't become a cancer in the clubhouse, as long as he's working hard to overcome whatever is wrong with his swing, the guy is going to get a free pass.

as far as we're concerned in stl, he's earned it. six straight mvp caliber seasons and taking his team to the playoffs five of the last six years (with three straight nlcs, two pennants, and a world series championship) will get you a lot of slack.

i was at the game yesterday afternoon and pujols was still getting tremendous support from the crowd. huge amounts of applause and cheering. people in stl are not going to turn on one of their heros because he's having a bad month.

for those who don't know or have never experienced it, stl is just a little different than other places. we don't have a tendency for booing. in fact, it's just the opposite. we'll cheer harder, root harder, support more-as long as a player is giving 100%. we may not like juan encarnacion but we're not going to really boo him either. stl fans just won't cheer or applaud the guy (if you want to understand the definition of quiet, go to busch stadium and experience a juanenc or preston wilson at bat). on the flip side of that, stl baseball fans will give stading ovations to career minor leaguers making their first ab in the bigs. they'll give ovations to great plays and achievements of the visiting team. we used to give willie mcgee a standing ovation everytime he came to bat when he was nothing more than a fifth outfielder.

[hubkittel]

I want players to be treated fairly through out, and I think it's BS how much crap A-Rod gets and Pujols gets nothing.

i don't think the story last year was so much that arod was having a tough year (which by his standards he was) but rather that the fans in new york had turned on him. if the fans in stl turned on pujols, booed him at every ab, and were trying to run him out of town while at the same time neither his teammates nor his manager came to his defense, i think that that would be a major story and espn would eat it up with a spoon.

[digglahhh]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

This is not necessarily true. Some people think that they louder they scream (in celebration or anger) the more you care (the same people who think that repeatedly hitting the elevator button makes it come faster). That is a rather primitive way of looking at things. Many New York fans, especially in the A-Rod case, do not act in the interest of their own team and players. I know plenty of Yankees fans who seemed to root for A-Rod to fail. They were loud and bi-polar, but that doesn't sound like a "good baseball fan" to me.

A true baseball down supports its team unconditionally, it doesn't use its teams' success as a tool to indulge its collective ego, and revel in its self-purported superiority.

[KCGHOST]

First, it is April.
Second, the Cardinals have the best fans in the country.
Third, they just won the WS (how quickly we forget).
Fourth, to criticize Albert for a slow month after six mega-years would be ridiculous.

[otis89]

Second, the Cardinals have the best fans in the country.


Bullcrap! And no, I'm not a bitter Cubs fan. No team can seriously claim to have the best fans in the country because every team has many fans that are complete jackasses. I know several Cubs and Cardinals fans that are jackasses.

[hubkittel]

they just won the WS (how quickly we forget).


i think that's a really huge part of the equation here in stl. we've just had one of the best three year runs in franchise history and we finally got that tenth championship after waiting 25 years for it. people in cardinal nation are just kind of fat and happy right now and the team is going to get a lot of slack because of it.

so pujols is slumping. so rolen is slumping. so edmonds is slumping. so carp is hurt. so the team leads the league in hitting into double plays. so we can't score runs to save our rear ends. so the team looks like it's going to have to grind it out just to stay around .500, hope to get hot and somehow get to 88 wins, and sneak into october. :shrug: it's only april 18th.

[ElHalo]

Being a great baseball city/fan and being a forgiving fan are not two different things. Just because they can forgive someone for playing poorly does not mean that the fans do not care. Maybe the fans also appreciate the GAME of baseball, not just their team. Because you see, thats what a real fan does, they love the GAME, not just their team. If I want to appreciate the game of baseball, I'll go watch some high school kids play on a sandlot, or go play myself in a PAL league. If I'm watching an MLB game, I'm watching it to see my team thrash the other team. And if my team isn't doing that, I'm going to get very upset about it. Plus it is a lot easier to be forgiving when you only have one team in your city, and you can appreciate the good times and the bad without overreacting, you know, like an adult would. I feel like it would be a little bit more difficult to understand for a two team city, since if one team is doing poorly they can just go root for the other. That way they never have to grow and mature as a baseball fan. Either that or both teams do poorly and then they don't care at all.
Wow, this is just silly. Do you honestly think people just switch alleigances based on who happens to be doing better at the time? What kind of fan would that be?

[dl4060]

He's off to a slow start, not jumping on his back, why isn't the media all over him? Can you imagine if A-Rod got off to this start, why isn't it the same for Pujols?

The fact that Pujols is not being ridiculed says great things about St. Louis, the same way Arod's treatment says bad things about New York, or at least the New Yorkers who take every opportunity to jump on his back.

[dl4060]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high.

Not true. It is absolutely possible for people to care deeply about something but still be forgiving. Just because you choose to act out your emotions by breaking furniture does not mean someone who keeps their cool is any less emotional than you are. Different people express themselves in different ways. Fans can feel pain but still forgive, doing so shows appreciation and intelligence.

I don't know if Arod's treatment by the New York fans has had an effect on his play. I do know that intelligent fan bases are like intelligent coaches, they bring out the best in players, not the worst. Yankee fans would do better supporting Arod. That many do not seems to me both sadistic and masochistic. If Arod's performance suffers from their ridicule then they are hurting themselves. It almost seems as if many are happy with Yankee failure, as it gives them a chance to boo Arod, and also reinforces the logically indefensible belief that Jeter was always better. Is "we ran Arod out of town while extending our world series drought because we set up obstacles and took every chance to ridicule him" a statement anyone should be proud of?

I applaud the St. Louis fans for their support of Pujols. He is one of the true greats in baseball, and I'm sure he will reward their loyalty. The Yankee fans who boo Arod at every chance deserve to have him hit .220 with 10 HR and 40 errors.

[STLCards2]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

Everybody in St. Louis rants and raves and throws stuff at the television when they are at home. I don't know a single Cards fan who isn't currently very angry about the offense. In social settings, the polite midwesteners don't like looking like irrational, ill-tempered, east-coast elitists, who appear to lack perspective on what is important in life. At home, they are very irrational and ill-tempered.

This isn't just a sports phenomenon either. In New York, if you don't like somebody, you tell them, and life moves on as normal. In St.Louis, you tip your hat to everybody on the street, then talk bad about them at the dinner table. You will rarely see a St.Louisan act enraged about anything. There would be too much cognitive disonance with the social norms. But believe me, the fans here are very passionate about their team.

Of course this is a broad generalization, but you get the point.

[csh19792001]

A true baseball down supports its team unconditionally, it doesn't use its teams' success as a tool to indulge its collective ego, and revel in its self-purported superiority.

And are you implying that EH (and Yankee fans in general) engage in these practices? I'm quite confused at your implications here, Derek.

:)

[SoxSon]

Everybody in St. Louis rants and raves and throws stuff at the television when they are at home. I don't know a single Cards fan who isn't currently very angry about the offense. In social settings, the polite midwesteners don't like looking like irrational, ill-tempered, east-coast elitists, who appear to lack perspective on what is important in life. At home, they are very irrational and ill-tempered.

This isn't just a sports phenomenon either. In New York, if you don't like somebody, you tell them, and life moves on as normal. In St.Louis, you tip your hat to everybody on the street, then talk bad about them at the dinner table. You will rarely see a St.Louisan act enraged about anything. There would be too much cognitive disonance with the social norms. But believe me, the fans here are very passionate about their team.

Of course this is a broad generalization, but you get the point.

This is interesting, and to add to the generalization (and speaking from an East Coast mindset), I can't help but notice that every time Boston plays in St. Louis, the fans at the ballpark there are so serene as to almost appear medicated. When the camera pans, it's as if half the people aren't really even watching the game...rather, they're chatting and watching the crowd. It's very different than the approach taken out here, which is rabid, to say the least.

[ElHalo]

Is "we ran Arod out of town while extending our world series drought because we set up obstacles and took every chance to ridicule him" a statement anyone should be proud of?

This is a slightly different situation, but picture being a Portland Trailblazers fan a few years back.

You've got Ruben Patterson... a guy who was on and off charges for assaulting women for years, including a no-contest plea to a sexual abuse charge; you've got Rasheed Wallace and Damon Stoudamire getting arrested together for drug possession; you've got Qyntel Woods getting arresting for torturing animals and holding dogfights in his backyard; you've got Bonzi Wells getting suspended for cursing at coaches and making obscene gestures to fans; you've got Zach Randolph getting arrested for driving while high on marijuana; you've got Shawn Kemp basically unable to play due to cocaine problems... and yet this team was succesful, making the playoffs regularly.

Picture yourself as a hardcore Blazers fan. Your team is doing at least moderately well... but you HATE the team, because all of the players on it are jerks. What would you rather have... see your beloved team do reasonably well with a roster full of people you can't stand, or see them rebuild, and maybe be less succesful, with a roster full of people you can fully support?

ARod's not a criminal. He's not a lunatic like Ron Artest or a murderer like (apparently) Oogey Urbina. But he's one of the least likeable players in major league baseball. He's one of those guys where you sometimes have to sit back and think "You know, maybe he's helping my team do well, but I'd like my team a lot more, whether they're better in the win column or not, without him." Barry Bonds might help your team win games, but I know precious few fans who'd want him on their teams.

[ElHalo]

Everybody in St. Louis rants and raves and throws stuff at the television when they are at home. I don't know a single Cards fan who isn't currently very angry about the offense. In social settings, the polite midwesteners don't like looking like irrational, ill-tempered, east-coast elitists, who appear to lack perspective on what is important in life. At home, they are very irrational and ill-tempered.

This isn't just a sports phenomenon either. In New York, if you don't like somebody, you tell them, and life moves on as normal. In St.Louis, you tip your hat to everybody on the street, then talk bad about them at the dinner table. You will rarely see a St.Louisan act enraged about anything. There would be too much cognitive disonance with the social norms. But believe me, the fans here are very passionate about their team.

Of course this is a broad generalization, but you get the point.


This is actually completely true, and having grown up (for at least part of my childhood) in the midwest, this is one of the key reasons why I felt the need to leave and never look back. Everybody is always way too polite and serine with each other, and everybody seems shocked and uncomfortable if you say something uncouth or unkind... but they all have much, much shorter fuses (which, in my opinion, is related to the bottling up everything to be all kind and cordial all the time). Very honest assessment you give here.

[ElHalo]

A true baseball down supports its team unconditionally,

No, a dog supports unconditionally. A true baseball fan who's unhappy with the decisions made by his GM pickets outside the GM's office until he makes some roster changes, or holds candlelight vigils outside the owner's office until he makes some GM changes. A true fan writes Op-Ed pieces and holds up banners at the stadium to show their displeasure when things aren't going right, and, yes, a true fan boos slumping players, even when those slumping players are named Derek Jeter and are among the most beloved sports heros the city has ever seen. The only people who should support anything unconditionally are parents. Anybody else should support things when they're going well, and try to change them when they're not.

[Edgartohof]

This is a slightly different situation, but picture being a Portland Trailblazers fan a few years back.

You've got Ruben Patterson... a guy who was on and off charges for assaulting women for years, including a no-contest plea to a sexual abuse charge; you've got Rasheed Wallace and Damon Stoudamire getting arrested together for drug possession; you've got Qyntel Woods getting arresting for torturing animals and holding dogfights in his backyard; you've got Bonzi Wells getting suspended for cursing at coaches and making obscene gestures to fans; you've got Zach Randolph getting arrested for driving while high on marijuana; you've got Shawn Kemp basically unable to play due to cocaine problems... and yet this team was succesful, making the playoffs regularly.

Picture yourself as a hardcore Blazers fan. Your team is doing at least moderately well... but you HATE the team, because all of the players on it are jerks. What would you rather have... see your beloved team do reasonably well with a roster full of people you can't stand, or see them rebuild, and maybe be less succesful, with a roster full of people you can fully support?

ARod's not a criminal. He's not a lunatic like Ron Artest or a murderer like (apparently) Oogey Urbina. But he's one of the least likeable players in major league baseball. He's one of those guys where you sometimes have to sit back and think "You know, maybe he's helping my team do well, but I'd like my team a lot more, whether they're better in the win column or not, without him." Barry Bonds might help your team win games, but I know precious few fans who'd want him on their teams.


Barry Bonds is Barry Bonds. A-Rod isn't him.

You seem to have a personal vendetta against him, but contrary to what you say, outside of you and New York in general, most people really like A-Rod and would LOVE to have him on their team (just not his contract).

[sds416]

A-Rod isn't all that overpaid, when he signed the contract he was a short stop with 50 HR potential, that's one hell of a player no matter which way you slice it. As far as what I want, well nothing really, I just want some consistency. I want players to be treated fairly through out, and I think it's BS how much crap A-Rod gets and Pujols gets nothing.

No broadcaster is going to paint every player with the same brush, which is basically what you want. When you look at A-Rod vs. Albert in terms of their careers, both have been and are superstars, one has a better postseason record, and less of a reputation for shooting of their mouth. No commentator is going to treat the identical situation in an identical manner for 2 distinctly different players. Its always been this way.

Right now they are all kissing A-rod's butt for the start he is off to. Remember this fact when you decide to start bitching again about the media getting on A-rod when he does his usual late season swoon, because honestly it does work both ways, regardless of the fact you probably don't want to admit it.

As far as A-rod being overpaid, you even mention the fact that the was paid on the potential of being a 50 hr. shortstop. Well, he's not that and the argument could easily be made that by playing a less physically demanding position at 3rd it should have helped him in terms of his offensive production, which hasn't been the case either.

[Monarch]

These are two mutually exclusive concepts. If it's a great baseball town, the fans live and breathe baseball, and feel pain with every low and ecstacy with every high. Being forgiving just means you don't care enough. If you don't care about your marriage at all, it wouldn't bother you if your spouse cheated on you. If you don't care about your team at all, it wouldn't bother you that your third baseman put up an 0-6 in a playoff game. If you have the slightest bit of concern about either, you rant and rave and nash your teeth and possibly break furniture over them.

St. Louis IS THE BEST Baseball Town! I have been to Yankee Stadium and it's just nuts. Fans get on guys for no reason. In the great game of baseball you are allowed to go 0-6 and still contribute by moving guys over or playing goood defense. Those things are understood and appreciated in St. Louis. In St. Louis a good sac bunt by a pitcher will get the fans on their feet in appreciation. It's the little things like that that win ballgames.

A few years ago, when Larry Walker was with the Rockies, he hit a solo shot off Dustin Hemranson in the seventh inning. Standing ovation. Why, it was the first hit and baserunner Hermanson had surrendered. He took a perfect game into the seventh. St. Louis fans appreciate the effort. Tony Gwynn got a standing ovation when he got hit number 2999 or was it 2998. I can't remember, but he wanted to get 3000 in St. Louis because he knew that the best fans in baseball would appreciate his accomplishment.

Yankee fans ride A-Rod so hard that he will eventually leave. Maybe he'll go to Boston and hit .700 against the Yankees. Be careful what you wish for. There's a reason why players don't want to play in pinstripes. Greg Maddux refused a lot more money. Randy Johnson couldn't get out fast enough.

You can say we don't care enough, but we care just as much as any fans in baseball, but we don't rant and rave and pound or chests for no reason. We understand that baseball players are human and that in the game of baseball you can go 3-10 and still be successful. That would mean that you would fail 7-10 times. At the end of the year a.330 average with 40+ homeruns and 100+ RBI's is a pretty good year. So, appreciate what you got in A-Rod and quit trying to run him out of town.

[digglahhh]

This is a slightly different situation, but picture being a Portland Trailblazers fan a few years back.

You've got Ruben Patterson... a guy who was on and off charges for assaulting women for years, including a no-contest plea to a sexual abuse charge; you've got Rasheed Wallace and Damon Stoudamire getting arrested together for drug possession; you've got Qyntel Woods getting arresting for torturing animals and holding dogfights in his backyard; you've got Bonzi Wells getting suspended for cursing at coaches and making obscene gestures to fans; you've got Zach Randolph getting arrested for driving while high on marijuana; you've got Shawn Kemp basically unable to play due to cocaine problems... and yet this team was succesful, making the playoffs regularly.

Picture yourself as a hardcore Blazers fan. Your team is doing at least moderately well... but you HATE the team, because all of the players on it are jerks. What would you rather have... see your beloved team do reasonably well with a roster full of people you can't stand, or see them rebuild, and maybe be less succesful, with a roster full of people you can fully support?

ARod's not a criminal. He's not a lunatic like Ron Artest or a murderer like (apparently) Oogey Urbina. But he's one of the least likeable players in major league baseball. He's one of those guys where you sometimes have to sit back and think "You know, maybe he's helping my team do well, but I'd like my team a lot more, whether they're better in the win column or not, without him." Barry Bonds might help your team win games, but I know precious few fans who'd want him on their teams.

Wouldn't want Barry anymore.

But, I think the Grand Dragon of the KKK would have happily took Barry's chemically aided interpretation of Ruth on the team of his liking...

I don't find A-Rod unlikeable by the way. He is a well-mannered, clean living, prideful but relatively humble superstar. What's not to like?

Unless of course you are arguing that the most hated players in the NBA over the last twenty years were Tim Duncan and Grant Hill... Some people actually do dislike those guys, IMO, it stems from them being so close to "perfect" on and off the court that it forces you to address your own shortcomings. That angers you, so you project it back on them out of resentment.

That's just me playing armchair psychologist though.

[digglahhh]

No, a dog supports unconditionally. A true baseball fan who's unhappy with the decisions made by his GM pickets outside the GM's office until he makes some roster changes, or holds candlelight vigils outside the owner's office until he makes some GM changes. A true fan writes Op-Ed pieces and holds up banners at the stadium to show their displeasure when things aren't going right, and, yes, a true fan boos slumping players, even when those slumping players are named Derek Jeter and are among the most beloved sports heros the city has ever seen. The only people who should support anything unconditionally are parents. Anybody else should support things when they're going well, and try to change them when they're not.

Don't lecture me about what a true fan does, EH. I don't appreciate you playing loose and fast semantic games with my posts either. Your fellow lawyer brethren who study language as a tool to manipulate for their personal gain might appreciate that stuff, but true fans and linguists find it sophomoric and lick their chops at the opportunity to smash an ant with a sledgehammer.

Is that the NYC candor you were after, buddy? Even got the arrogance down, eh...

Support is not blind faith and I never implied it was. Support is actively rooting (in all of the ways that manifests) for the uniform through thick and thin. It doesn't mean being satisfied or happy with mediocrity. Parents support unconditionally, but they are not indifferent to failure.

If Omar went out and gave Juan Pierre the contact that the Dodgers did, I'd think he was an idiot. I wouldn't root for Pierre to lead the league in outs once again to prove it though! I'm not in the position to make decisions for my team; I am critical of those decisions I don't like. But I, and here's the hey point, hope to be proven wrong.

I root for my team to win. I don't make homophobic remarks about my star player because he wants to enjoy a day in Central Park. I love my team, seriously, love my team. I recognize when they are sick and hope that they get well. I advise (in the abstract) against engaging in behavior that has a likelihood of making them sick. I do not, however, revel in the sickness!

That is what I meant by supporting my team. And you knew that. Shame on you for making me write this post just because you wanted to be a smart-aleck.

Just for your reference, the Mets play in the National League which is an organization akin to the American League. The National League even existed in the 70's and 80's. Players with names that you are vaguely familiar with like Joe Morgan, Dale Murphy and Mike Schmidt played in the National League.

P.S. I hope you appreciate sarcasm.

[wogdoggy]

after 6 years and extensive video ,,maybe the pitchers and coaches are figuring out how to pitch him!

[dl4060]

This is a slightly different situation, but picture being a Portland Trailblazers fan a few years back.

You've got Ruben Patterson... a guy who was on and off charges for assaulting women for years, including a no-contest plea to a sexual abuse charge; you've got Rasheed Wallace and Damon Stoudamire getting arrested together for drug possession; you've got Qyntel Woods getting arresting for torturing animals and holding dogfights in his backyard; you've got Bonzi Wells getting suspended for cursing at coaches and making obscene gestures to fans; you've got Zach Randolph getting arrested for driving while high on marijuana; you've got Shawn Kemp basically unable to play due to cocaine problems... and yet this team was succesful, making the playoffs regularly.

Picture yourself as a hardcore Blazers fan. Your team is doing at least moderately well... but you HATE the team, because all of the players on it are jerks. What would you rather have... see your beloved team do reasonably well with a roster full of people you can't stand, or see them rebuild, and maybe be less succesful, with a roster full of people you can fully support?

ARod's not a criminal. He's not a lunatic like Ron Artest or a murderer like (apparently) Oogey Urbina. But he's one of the least likeable players in major league baseball. He's one of those guys where you sometimes have to sit back and think "You know, maybe he's helping my team do well, but I'd like my team a lot more, whether they're better in the win column or not, without him." Barry Bonds might help your team win games, but I know precious few fans who'd want him on their teams.

Wow...I'd forgotten about just how bad it was with the Trailblazers, all I really remember is a bunch of potheads, I guess it was alot worse.

EH, just curious about where your distaste of Arod comes from. If you, and other Yankee fans, dislike him that much it is certainly acceptable to want to run him out of town. Would you be happy if he opted out next winter and left? I guess I was not aware of the level of animosity. There are some athletes I dislike for tangible reasons, and others where I cannot pinpoint the source. How did you feel when you guys acquired him? Was it "wow, we just got an incredible player," or "I can't stand this guy so he really better improve our record and get us another trophy." To me, Arod seems a bit up tight, and a bit greedy, but not in a serious way. If I had the chance to sign the contract he signed I would do it in a heartbeat. Would having him on the Yankees detract from your joy at a WS title? Just curious. I only hate Arod when the Yanks play the sox,:D at other times I actually root for the guy. I hate everyone who plays the red sox when they are on the field, so that is a bit unfair.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

El Halo,

I have a question for you. When Jeter got off to that awful start a few seasons ago did the Yankee fans jump on his case or did they support him when he came to bat?

[ElHalo]

There's a reason why players don't want to play in pinstripes. Greg Maddux refused a lot more money. Randy Johnson couldn't get out fast enough.

You're close to hitting the nail on the head here, but not quite. There's a certain type of player that can't hack it in NY... guys that can't take constant pressure, constant attention, reporters camped outside their houses. That's more a sign of weakness on their parts than a problem with NY. Randy Johnson just wasn't a New York type of guy, and despite his growing up here, ARod hasn't really seemed to be one either.

[ElHalo]

El Halo,

I have a question for you. When Jeter got off to that awful start a few seasons ago did the Yankee fans jump on his case or did they support him when he came to bat?

This is actually a good point. Jeter's my favorite player in the world, and has been ever since he came up. My Yankee fandom had been a series of letdowns and travesties before Jeter came along (1995 being the first time I'd ever seen them make the postseason). There's probably not a bigger Jeter fan on the planet than me. But yeah, I was booing him during that start. Booing doesn't mean "I hate you," it means "what you're doing right now is unacceptable, and me and 50,000 others are going to let you know that." Didn't mean he wasn't still my favorite player. And Jeter knew what the boos were for, knew he deserved them, and didn't let it faze him in the slightest. One of the best things about him; he loves pressure, and he loves to know the fans are paying attention.

[ElHalo]

I got the sarcasm, but just so we're clear, you know I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, and wouldn't want to come across as antagonistic in any way; you have my apologies if I did.


I don't find A-Rod unlikeable by the way. He is a well-mannered, clean living, prideful but relatively humble superstar. What's not to like?

Unless of course you are arguing that the most hated players in the NBA over the last twenty years were Tim Duncan and Grant Hill...

This is pretty much exactly it. I don't hate Tim Duncan per se, but I certainly couldn't imagine rooting for him; as a Detroit Pistons fan, I know I was bitterly disappointed when the team with absolutely tremendous character guys like Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer, and Denis Rodman got replaced with a team of cyphers like Grant Hill. You really have nailed it as far as why I don't like ARod (aside from the disappearing in the clutch). If I'm going to be rooting for a guy, I want him to be the kind of guy I'd actually like as a person. I couldn't imagine liking Alex Rodriguez as a person. Derek Jeter or David Wells, you could see yourself going out with them on a Friday night, drinking till sunrise, and waking up in a different state with no idea how you got there, surrounded by women you don't recall ever having met. Fun people, in other words. ARod? Could you possibly imagine a weekend on the town with ARod being any fun at all? Everybody says he's a great big nerd in person... the kind of guy who would have gotten beat up all the time in high school if he weren't so huge; the kind of guy who would tell on his classmates for all their childhood pranks. The kind of guy, in other words, I'd cross the street to get away from in real life.

Bill Laimbeer would knock down opposing players when the refs weren't looking, and then point and laugh at them when they complained. Derek Jeter smiles when entire stadiums boo him, and egg them on to boo him louder (while being seen at the absolute trendiest nightclubs with the absolute hottest starlets ever night). Allen Iverson will pick fights with guys who have a foot of height and a hundred pounds on him just because he knows he's tough enough to make them back down. Those are the kinds of guys you can relate to, the kind of guys you'd want to hang out with, the kind of guys you can get behind. Guys like ARod, with no personality, who spend their evenings watching tv with their wives and probably frown when they hear bad language, and who would be about as much fun to be around as typhus, are just absolutely intolerable. Especially in New York, and especially when they're supposed to be the superstars leading the team. I remember a couple years back when... I want to say it was Hank Blalock got furious with ARod for patting him on the head after he'd gotten a game winning hit and saying "good man," like Blalock was some kind of puppy. Just infuriating that a guy with no social skills could possibly feel that entitled.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This is actually a good point. Jeter's my favorite player in the world, and has been ever since he came up. My Yankee fandom had been a series of letdowns and travesties before Jeter came along (1995 being the first time I'd ever seen them make the postseason). There's probably not a bigger Jeter fan on the planet than me. But yeah, I was booing him during that start. Booing doesn't mean "I hate you," it means "what you're doing right now is unacceptable, and me and 50,000 others are going to let you know that." Didn't mean he wasn't still my favorite player. And Jeter knew what the boos were for, knew he deserved them, and didn't let it faze him in the slightest. One of the best things about him; he loves pressure, and he loves to know the fans are paying attention.

I think Jeter's baseball intelligence and mental toughness is greatly underrated. I wonder if his mental toughness is partly a byproduct of being a bi-racial child and having to endure taunts as a kid?

[Monarch]

You're close to hitting the nail on the head here, but not quite. There's a certain type of player that can't hack it in NY... guys that can't take constant pressure, constant attention, reporters camped outside their houses. That's more a sign of weakness on their parts than a problem with NY. Randy Johnson just wasn't a New York type of guy, and despite his growing up here, ARod hasn't really seemed to be one either.

I completely agree that it takes a special kind of player to play in New York, but is it really necessary for media members to camp outside the players house? I mean, what scoop does that idiot get that the others don't. Give the players the personal space and respect they deserve.

[dl4060]

You're close to hitting the nail on the head here, but not quite. There's a certain type of player that can't hack it in NY... guys that can't take constant pressure, constant attention, reporters camped outside their houses. That's more a sign of weakness on their parts than a problem with NY. Randy Johnson just wasn't a New York type of guy, and despite his growing up here, ARod hasn't really seemed to be one either.

Actually, I'd say it's a sign of weakness among New York fans, not among players.

[digglahhh]

I got the sarcasm, but just so we're clear, you know I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, and wouldn't want to come across as antagonistic in any way; you have my apologies if I did.

For a Midwestern transplant who calls Long Island home, you certainly do a lot of preaching about the heart and essence of the city, don't ya...:blah: :happy:

I wasn't offended or anything, I've come far closer to hitting below the belt here than you have. I was only slightly annoyed because I don't really think that you truly interpreted my use of the term "support" in the way that your response implied you did. I like joking around with you, EH. You are one of the most colorful members of this forum.

[west coast orange and black]

it was pure sweetness watching pujols crush that home run the other night. i enjoyed seeing such a talented player start to get some things corrected.

the giants ended up with the win, so it is ok for me to say this.