Tail Wagging the Dog

[Jake Patterson]

Pitch Count -

This from the LL site. Still nothing about training...

http://www.littleleague.org/media/Congress_Andrews_Fleisig.asp

[bbjunkie]

Pitch Count -

This from the LL site. Still nothing about training...

http://www.littleleague.org/media/Congress_Andrews_Fleisig.asp

Training on what specifically?

[Jake Patterson]

Training on what specifically?

Off the top of my head:


The mission of the youth coach
The 14 legal reponsibilities of the coach
Additional coaching responsibilities
How to properly warm up the young athlete
What defines successful coaching
Establishing team rules
Codes of ethics
Dynamic stretching
Static stretching
Baseball safety
Organizing an effective practice
Master Schedules
Teaching age appropriate hitting techniques
Age appropriate hitting drills
Teaching age appropriate throwing techniques
Age appropriate throwing drills
Teaching age appropriate fielding techniques
Age appropriate fielding drills
Teaching age appropriate pitching techniques
Age appropriate pitching drills
Arm care
Understanding the basic biology of the pre-pubescent athlete
Teaching how to establish age appropriate goals and expectations
How to get an keep the player's attention
How to keep the game fun
Handeling difficult parents
Field behavior
Etc...


Again, there is so much that should be done that discussing the content is premature to discussing the process in which to teach.

[bbjunkie]

Gotcha,

Totally agreed. Locally the greatest deficit is coach training. They don't have any, never have, apparently don't want any, and the league president is scornful of the idea. I see kids passing through local baseball with a lot of talent. I'm convinced our small town could be a baseball powerhouse if there were a network of coaches from LL to HS who were exposed to what good coaching looks like.

[BallCoach06]

I agree. Pitch counts are only the start (still too high in my opinion). There needs to be education on arm care, proper stretching, mechanics, etc.

For what is it worth. I heard from a parent last night that a kid (13-14 years old) went out and threw well over 100 pitches last night for his Senior League team. This kid has had only three practices with his team this spring due to weather, etc.

I asked the parent who told me this, why didn't the parents of the kid say something to the coach. He said the parents were concerned, but felt the coach knew what he was doing because he is the coach.

Now, I heard this second hand and might not have all the details, but either way this is pretty scary stuff.

[PopTop]

Pitch Count - Still nothing about training...While I agree with your notion that more than just pitch counts need to be addressed, pooh-poohing pitch counts isn't going to solve anything. You listed more than two dozen ideas for better training, many of them ambiguous and open to a lot of interpretation. But pitch counts are an easy and quick fix and will help protect a lot of kids from overzealous and untrained coaches and parents.

[BallCoach06]

While I agree with your notion that more than just pitch counts need to be addressed, pooh-poohing pitch counts isn't going to solve anything. You listed more than two dozen ideas for better training, many of them ambiguous and open to a lot of interpretation. But pitch counts are an easy and quick fix and will help protect a lot of kids from overzealous and untrained coaches and parents.

You are correct, the pitch count is "quick and easy". But, the point is being made that more than that needs to be done.

Let's say a MLB pitcher threw 100 pitches last night. He will then do this 4 day workout program (running, long toss, bullpens, tubing, etc.) to get ready for his next start. He will start again on Sunday.

Now, let's take a 13 year old kid. Say he threw 90 pitches yesterday. According to LL rules, he can throw again Saturday. In the meantime, that player will probably not go through a pitcher workout program. He will probably play in the field (if the team has more games that week), or will just have practice. But, I would bet that the kid does not do any running (other than what happens in the next game or practice), long toss, tubing, bullpens, etc.

To say that a 13 year old kid can come back on one fewer days rest than a trained professional throwing almost as many pitches in a given start is insane in my opinion.

To top it off, this rule only applies to Little League and does not carry over to other leagues or teams. So, a good youth pitcher that is better than his peers might start a LL game on a Thursday night and throw 80-100 pitches, come back and throw 80-100 more on the weekend for his travel team, and then throw another 80-100 on Monday or Tuesday when his LL team plays again.

The last factor is a big reason why parents really need to be involved in the safety of their kids. Also, another reason why coaches need to be trained on some of the items mentioned in the post above.

Parents and coaches really need to communicate and be on the same page when it comes to pitch counts and overusage.

[PopTop]

I couldn't agree more, coach; more needs to be done in order to make it perfect. No matter what rules are made, you can't legislate 'stupid,' be that from a parent or a coach. I still think putting in pitch counts is a good start.

[Jake Patterson]

... you can't legislate 'stupid,' be that from a parent or a coach. I still think putting in pitch counts is a good start.

Pop,
Organizations like Little League have all the power needed to bring together the right minds to at least start to properly address the problem. So far they seem to have only spoken to those experts concerned with treatment not prevention. In our league parents and coaches are more concerned with how to track PC than they are the reasons for it.

During our last clinic we had an orthopedic surgeon show very graphic orthoscopic clips of damaged arms. Whether or not those coaches left that particular session with an understanding how to better teach pitching is unlikely, but they certainly left with a greater understanding of what damage can be caused when doing the wrong things. It was only a small step in the right direction.

I am not anti-pitch-count. I think it may help. I feel training has become such big business for organizations like Little League, that they do not choose to do what's best for the kids. A coaches' training committe should be formed at LLI and a training vision and mission established. Once that is complete good things could happen.

[virg]

My impression is that LL is the MacDonald's of kidball. A private business at the top level, with local franchises paying fees. Contact with franchises only through a headquarters catalog and at a fat price. Their P.R. is the best (word of mouth) of the Best (media) and at no cost.

The other kidball umbrellas may be similar if not the same.
Bottom line is so many fields, diamonds, parks are tied-up
that the kids are regimented as puppets (parents also became their tools) and the neighborhood free-for-all ballgame is all but forgotten. It's not all bad, but not nearly ideal.

Kids grow up and take parents with them; all replaced constantly as needed. Most parents, only very ignorant cheerleaders. Onto this scramble, you want to graft a working knowledge of baseball? And Kinesiology? VERY tall order.

[Jake Patterson]

Onto this scramble, you want to graft a working knowledge of baseball? And Kinesiology? VERY tall order.

I believe there are more positives occuring in LL than negatives both from a social perspective and a pedological development perspective.

The question is not whether or not we should add more to the current pile, it's whether or not we are managing the current pile responsibly. With youth arm injuries being at epidemic proportions I suggets we are not.

[TG Coach]

Off the top of my head:


The mission of the youth coach
The 14 legal reponsibilities of the coach
Additional coaching responsibilities
How to properly warm up the young athlete
What defines successful coaching
Establishing team rules
Codes of ethics
Dynamic stretching
Static stretching
Baseball safety
Organizing an effective practice
Master Schedules
Teaching age appropriate hitting techniques
Age appropriate hitting drills
Teaching age appropriate throwing techniques
Age appropriate throwing drills
Teaching age appropriate fielding techniques
Age appropriate fielding drills
Teaching age appropriate pitching techniques
Age appropriate pitching drills
Arm care
Understanding the basic biology of the pre-pubescent athlete
Teaching how to establish age appropriate goals and expectations
How to get an keep the player's attention
How to keep the game fun
Handeling difficult parents
Field behavior
Etc...


Again, there is so much that should be done that discussing the content is premature to discussing the process in which to teach.

Jake,

This is a great list of things coaches should learn. But like we've discussed on another site, imagine how long it would take to go through certification for the entire list. The hardest part would be learning how to teach proper mechanics for youth coaches who never played the game. While I would agree there are former players who need to learn how to teach the game, the instruction would be easy to understand. A non-player coach would have trouble relating to the instruction. It doesn't mean they can't learn it, but it would take weeks for each (hitting, throwing, fielding, pitching).

However I believe a bunch of these could be breezed through in a matter of a weekend or two, or possibly online instruction with a test at the end. A youth coach doesn't need a baseball background to quickly learn:

The mission of the youth coach
The 14 legal reponsibilities of the coach
Additional coaching responsibilities
How to properly warm up the young athlete
What defines successful coaching
Establishing team rules
Codes of ethics
Dynamic stretching
Static stretching
Baseball safety
Organizing an effective practice
Master Schedules
Arm care
Understanding the basic biology of the pre-pubescent athlete
Teaching how to establish age appropriate goals and expectations
How to get an keep the player's attention
How to keep the game fun
Handeling difficult parents
Field behavior

I would have no issue with a coach being required to learn these things in a self study and pass a test to be allowed to coach. At least with this group the behavior around the park would be appropriate.

Then there's these that are very time consuming to learn:

Teaching age appropriate hitting techniques
Age appropriate hitting drills
Teaching age appropriate throwing techniques
Age appropriate throwing drills
Teaching age appropriate fielding techniques
Age appropriate fielding drills
Teaching age appropriate pitching techniques
Age appropriate pitching drills

[TG Coach]

So, a good youth pitcher that is better than his peers might start a LL game on a Thursday night and throw 80-100 pitches, come back and throw 80-100 more on the weekend for his travel team, and then throw another 80-100 on Monday or Tuesday when his LL team plays again.

The last factor is a big reason why parents really need to be involved in the safety of their kids. Also, another reason why coaches need to be trained on some of the items mentioned in the post above.

Parents and coaches really need to communicate and be on the same page when it comes to pitch counts and overusage.

My son plays on a travel team that plays during his school season since most of the kids on the team don't have middle school ball. He had travel practice tonight. My son told the travel pitching coach his session tonight needed to be a day before a game session since he's pitching for his school tomorrow. Then he told the head coach he would not be available to pitch this weekend so the coach could make his pitching plans without a last minute surprise.

I understand what needs to be done. I've taught my son. He knows early in the season, he's not throwing fifty pitches in fifty degree weather on Friday and pitch again on the weekend. In midseason hot weather he may have been able to throw another twenty-five on Sunday.

[Jake Patterson]

The key with a Little League solution is to start.

[Drill]

Pop,
Organizations like Little League have all the power needed to bring together the right minds to at least start to properly address the problem. So far they seem to have only spoken to those experts concerned with treatment not prevention. In our league parents and coaches are more concerned with how to track PC than they are the reasons for it.

During our last clinic we had an orthopedic surgeon show very graphic orthoscopic clips of damaged arms. Whether or not those coaches left that particular session with an understanding how to better teach pitching is unlikely, but they certainly left with a greater understanding of what damage can be caused when doing the wrong things. It was only a small step in the right direction.

I am not anti-pitch-count. I think it may help. I feel training has become such big business for organizations like Little League, that they do not choose to do what's best for the kids. A coaches' training committe should be formed at LLI and a training vision and mission established. Once that is complete good things could happen.




Could not agree more.

But who would cut and groom the fields?


from a tired and burned out LL volunteer.


drill

[BallCoach06]

My son plays on a travel team that plays during his school season since most of the kids on the team don't have middle school ball. He had travel practice tonight. My son told the travel pitching coach his session tonight needed to be a day before a game session since he's pitching for his school tomorrow. Then he told the head coach he would not be available to pitch this weekend so the coach could make his pitching plans without a last minute surprise.

I understand what needs to be done. I've taught my son. He knows early in the season, he's not throwing fifty pitches in fifty degree weather on Friday and pitch again on the weekend. In midseason hot weather he may have been able to throw another twenty-five on Sunday.

This is exactly the things that need to be done. Great job! It is simple communication. If the coach has a problem with it, then it might not be the coach you want to play for. He might have other motives rather than the safety of his pitchers.

IMO, you play LL and travel ball to prepare yourself to play for your school teams (middle school or high school ball), not the other way around. So, his school ball should take priority.

[TG Coach]

IMO, you play LL and travel ball to prepare yourself to play for your school teams (middle school or high school ball), not the other way around. So, his school ball should take priority.

I see middle school ball as an extracurricular activity and field time. The coaching and competition is marginal. Travel is his challenging baseball. But the school team takes priority this time of year. He has a responsibility to his team to perform and lead.

If he wasn't on this travel team there wouldn't be much overlap. We only had one tournament during the school season with last year's team since most of the kids had school ball.

[bbjunkie]

I see middle school ball as an extracurricular activity and field time. The coaching and competition is marginal. Travel is his challenging baseball. But the school team takes priority this time of year. He has a responsibility to his team to perform and lead.

If he wasn't on this travel team there wouldn't be much overlap. We only had one tournament during the school season with last year's team since most of the kids had school ball.

My son's playing JV and practicing with the travel team. The travel team practices once a week and doesn't have kids pitch during school season because most of the kids pitch on their school teams. The travel season doesn't begin play until June 1.

As I think I've posted before, his 13U travel team could kick his JV team's hind end.