Winning versus teaching and developing

[Jake Patterson]

There has been some discussion on Eteamz about winning at all costs and I offered the following articles. I posted here for all.


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Jake

[Three A's baseball]

thank you for the links....

[Thor]

Jake:
Thank you for a superior post.

[Ursa Major]

Jake, you cannot post those types of articles too often. And, you already know that I think the article on "token playing time" is one of the most brilliant short pieces on youth coaching that I've ever read, because it hits at something that even the most highly regarded coaches miss. And the conclusion hits at everything we need to instill in youth coaches: "Remember the game is for the players. The future athletic memories of our children are being made today. Go and make good memories!"

I just got an email from a friend who's an assistant coach on a very unsuccessful 9-10 year old squad. Their only decent pitcher missed their last game, and the ended up losing 26 to 2. Since I know one of the kids on the winning team -- who is small and always relegated to the outfield for his minimum playing time -- I looked for some silver lining and hoped that at least he had an opportunity to get some time in the infield. Did he? Nope -- the winners stayed with their starting infielders the whole game!

[Sparksdale]

I am thankful that the two years I coached I didn't have to have any bench players. I always had 9 players so everyone played.

I hate the idea of leaving a lesser player on the bench. What chance does that kid have of getting better? I'll tell you, NONE!

I can tell you this, as a coach if you have a lesser player do well there is no better feeling. There was one kid on my team that wasn't very good...that is being kind. He couldn't hit the ball off a tee but he tried really hard and he always said yes sir and no sir. A very nice young man. One game he got TWO HITS! You would have thought he'd hit a grand slam in the world series....it is a very good feeling as a coach to watch a kid have a great memory.

Sparks,

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, you cannot post those types of articles too often. And, you already know that I think the article on "token playing time" is one of the most brilliant short pieces on youth coaching that I've ever read, because it hits at something that even the most highly regarded coaches miss. And the conclusion hits at everything we need to instill in youth coaches: "Remember the game is for the players. The future athletic memories of our children are being made today. Go and make good memories!"

I just got an email from a friend who's an assistant coach on a very unsuccessful 9-10 year old squad. Their only decent pitcher missed their last game, and the ended up losing 26 to 2. Since I know one of the kids on the winning team -- who is small and always relegated to the outfield for his minimum playing time -- I looked for some silver lining and hoped that at least he had an opportunity to get some time in the infield. Did he? Nope -- the winners stayed with their starting infielders the whole game!


Thanks Ursa

[hawkiirock]

my windows vista wont open it with adobe. any suggestions?
There has been some discussion on Eteamz about winning at all costs and I offered the following articles. I posted here for all.


22728
22729
22730

Jake

[Jake Patterson]

my windows vista wont open it with adobe. any suggestions?

Send me an Email at pattersonsports@yahoo.com and I'll send them to you

[MSandman]

I guess I run my LL Majors team more like a HS team! :happy:

IMO, I would've moved LL out of that right-most column. Maybe Minors should have the "equal playing time", etc., but I think by Majors, they should start to understand that playing time is rewarded based on effort AND skill (and attitude).

Our league has a 3-inning minimum, so no one is ever "that kid at the end of the bench". They all know, "if you don't start this game, you start the next". It's a good rule for LL Majors, which by the book, only mandates 6 outs and 1 AB (I think?).

Our league is very much "trying to win", during the regular season AND at the All-Star level. And we've been very successful at that too. And for good or bad, I do think that competition feeds into the regular season too. I don't really agree on giving every player equal playing time at this level. The kids who are home practicing more on their own, and paying more attention at practices and grasping things quicker/better, and producing in games... IMO, should get more playing time. Nor do I want every player to get guaranteed infield time. "We" - the TEAM - ARE trying to win. And the majority of the kids on the team would not want to lose a game because we didn't have our best players in the best positions whenever possible (within the guideline of 3 or 6 innings per player).

My style of coaching/teaching does perhaps fit a little better w/ our AAU team, where the players take the game a bit more seriously. But I guess I also look at it like "if we're training kids to play at the next level (HS), then we coaches are also training for that level (if desired)"? So why not help prepare the kids (at least those who might aspire to play beyond LL) for their next level, while at the same time getting us coaches used to it?

Of course, I do agree w/ the "fun" aspect for this age, and try to make sure we have at least one intra-team competitive game/drill each practice - knockout infield or hitting, a relay throw drill, intrateam scrimmage or something.

My 2 cents.

[Jake Patterson]

But I guess I also look at it like "if we're training kids to play at the next level (HS), then we coaches are also training for that level (if desired)"? So why not help prepare the kids (at least those who might aspire to play beyond LL) for their next level, while at the same time getting us coaches used to it?

Maybe I am different in that I punched the HS ticket and decided to return to the younger kids after retiring. It gives me a different perspective than those trying to move up the food chain.

[MSandman]

I imagine it would. So I guess you can still understand what it's like "coming up"? I really do think my team appreciates our mentality, except for maybe some of the younger/newer kids who likely WILL spend most of the season playing 3 innings in the outfield.

[tominct]

My style of coaching/teaching does perhaps fit a little better w/ our AAU team, where the players take the game a bit more seriously. But I guess I also look at it like "if we're training kids to play at the next level (HS), then we coaches are also training for that level (if desired)"? So why not help prepare the kids (at least those who might aspire to play beyond LL) for their next level, while at the same time getting us coaches used to it?


My 2 cents

Sorry to say this, but your two cents is worth about that much, if not less. Check your baseball progression. High School is not the level directly following Majors for Pete's sake! You've got Babe Ruth Prep, Babe Ruth, Freshman ball, JV and THEN varsity HS, when winning finally becomes the primary focus. And there is little need to prepare coaches in the Majors for the "next level" as you put it (considering your insistence that HS is the next level) because most High Schools, and even Jr. Highs and Middle Schools, have "real" coaches, and don't need a crew of daddyballers.

In all seriousness, if you think you are training your kids for high school, consider this; how many of those kids on your REGULAR SEASON Majors team, have any hope of playing on your local HS? One? (I'm sure its your little boy!) two tops? I hear the same thing in my youth league, but our high school is ranked #1 in CT and was #1 last year; I try to remind our coaches that they are quite likely coaching no more than one (if one!) kid who will play on our vasrity team in 4-5 years, and they have 12 on each team. What, we don't coach the other 11?

As I tell the coaches in our league "The Yankees aren't looking for Joe Torre's replacement here, and neither is the local high school."

As I heard once in a hockey coaches clinic with about 250 coaches in the room, " There might be one kid, among all the kids we (the guys in the room) will coach in our careers, who will play in the NHL, and the overwhelming odds are that YOU AREN'T COACHING HIM!"


Therefore, good luck, I hope you win your league championship! But don't be upset if the ESPN cameras aren't there.

my two cents!

tom

[tominct]

I just got an email from a friend who's an assistant coach on a very unsuccessful 9-10 year old squad. Their only decent pitcher missed their last game, and the ended up losing 26 to 2. Since I know one of the kids on the winning team -- who is small and always relegated to the outfield for his minimum playing time -- I looked for some silver lining and hoped that at least he had an opportunity to get some time in the infield. Did he? Nope -- the winners stayed with their starting infielders the whole game!

That is obscene. I hope your league seriously considers not allowing that person to coach again.

Tom

[dw8man]

We keep my son's all-star team photos on the Fridge. There are 7 of them (age 7 to 13). Starting two years ago, we start X off the kids that no longer play baseball. I bet that by the time he is in 10th grade there will only be one or two kids in each picture not crossed off. Of course, I am hoping that one of them will be mine!

[digglahhh]

When I think back on all the "competitive youth ball" I played and how seriously we took some State tourney, I'm ashamed at my own gullibility. The only members of the team who were more delusional than we were, were our coaches (for the most part). Two teammates went on to play full scholarship D1 at a big time school and one played some minor league ball. More than I can count are locked up or addicted to drugs today.

More of us have wore State greens than Dodger blue...

When clearing out space for my girlfriend to move in a couple of years ago, I didn't even feel the need to keep most of the trophies. Some good winning some games when we were thirteen did. I'm not blaming the coaches for the way anybody turned out, but many of us were drinking, doing drugs and having sex before BR. We couldn't have all been good at keeping it a secret.

Somehow, I doubt my old teammates are sitting in cell block somewhere taking salvation in beating some preppy league's brains in when we were 13. I think, in retrospect, most of us would trade all our youth league victories for a positive role model.

[MSandman]

Sorry to say this, but your two cents is worth about that much, if not less. Check your baseball progression. High School is not the level directly following Majors for Pete's sake! You've got Babe Ruth Prep, Babe Ruth, Freshman ball, JV and THEN varsity HS, when winning finally becomes the primary focus. And there is little need to prepare coaches in the Majors for the "next level" as you put it (considering your insistence that HS is the next level) because most High Schools, and even Jr. Highs and Middle Schools, have "real" coaches, and don't need a crew of daddyballers.

In all seriousness, if you think you are training your kids for high school, consider this; how many of those kids on your REGULAR SEASON Majors team, have any hope of playing on your local HS? One? (I'm sure its your little boy!) two tops? I hear the same thing in my youth league, but our high school is ranked #1 in CT and was #1 last year; I try to remind our coaches that they are quite likely coaching no more than one (if one!) kid who will play on our vasrity team in 4-5 years, and they have 12 on each team. What, we don't coach the other 11?

As I tell the coaches in our league "The Yankees aren't looking for Joe Torre's replacement here, and neither is the local high school."

As I heard once in a hockey coaches clinic with about 250 coaches in the room, " There might be one kid, among all the kids we (the guys in the room) will coach in our careers, who will play in the NHL, and the overwhelming odds are that YOU AREN'T COACHING HIM!"


Therefore, good luck, I hope you win your league championship! But don't be upset if the ESPN cameras aren't there.

my two cents!

tom

Who said we don't teach ALL of 'em? Lighten up. I didn't mean "very" next level, I meant "eventual (hopefully)". Sorry I struck a nerve, but I'm just being honest.

[tominct]

Who said we don't teach ALL of 'em? Lighten up. I didn't mean "very" next level, I meant "eventual (hopefully)". Sorry I struck a nerve, but I'm just being honest.

Fine, teach your kid in your backyard, prepare HIM for the next level, and stay away from coaching youth baseball.

[MSandman]

Stuff your harsh opinion tominct! :blah: I don't NEED internet approval. I was just sharing how I've run things as a contrast to Jake's article recommending equal playing time through LL Majors. And I don't get any complaints or rumblings from my teams/players either. So maybe different parts of the world (or even the same town sometimes) have a little different perspective than your neck o' the woods?

You make an awful lot of assumptions from one post pal. :disbelief:

[callyjr]

When I think back on all the "competitive youth ball" I played and how seriously we took some State tourney, I'm ashamed at my own gullibility. The only members of the team who were more delusional than we were, were our coaches (for the most part). Two teammates went on to play full scholarship D1 at a big time school and one played some minor league ball. More than I can count are locked up or addicted to drugs today.

More of us have wore State greens than Dodger blue...

When clearing out space for my girlfriend to move in a couple of years ago, I didn't even feel the need to keep most of the trophies. Some good winning some games when we were thirteen did. I'm not blaming the coaches for the way anybody turned out, but many of us were drinking, doing drugs and having sex before BR. We couldn't have all been good at keeping it a secret.

Somehow, I doubt my old teammates are sitting in cell block somewhere taking salvation in beating some preppy league's brains in when we were 13. I think, in retrospect, most of us would trade all our youth league victories for a positive role model.


as sad as this sounds its not the norm for most of the country nor probably your county, city and state. Not sure why your situation was so bad but I don' t think winning is a bad thing. I think it can be a great lesson for life in most situations. We certainly are not stressing winning at all costs, but to discount it and say it is not important I would have to disagree. Everyone likes to win and its important to learn how to win, it builds character and confidence in many ways.

If you teach the kids in practice the wins will follow without question, but not everyone understands how to teach and thats where the real problems is IMO.

example, we had guys on first and 2nd yesterday in our game, ball gets hit to 1st baseman, he gets the unassisted out and is not paying attention to the game. Our kid on 2nd rounded 3rd and crawled down the line until he relized the 1st baseman wasn't even thinking or looking for him. Our kid took off and scored and the opposing coach got all mad at us throwing a fit. We sent him back to 3rd to please the coach, but then explained to the coach that his kid was not paying attention and thats why our kid took off. I guess you only teach what you know, if this coach had been working with the kids to look for the other runners this would never have happened. The fact that we made the kid go back to 3rd shows its not about winning, but my kid and our entire bench is still confused why he had to go back, and what are you suppose to say, their coach sucks and didnt teach them? cannot do that.

[tominct]

Stuff your harsh opinion tominct! :blah: I don't NEED internet approval. I was just sharing how I've run things as a contrast to Jake's article recommending equal playing time through LL Majors. And I don't get any complaints or rumblings from my teams/players either. So maybe different parts of the world (or even the same town sometimes) have a little different perspective than your neck o' the woods?

You make an awful lot of assumptions from one post pal. :disbelief:

Perhaps, and for that I apologize, but having been a league administrator, I have seen the "get them ready for the next level" types, and I never found it to be a good approach, for lots of reasons.

[digglahhh]

as sad as this sounds its not the norm for most of the country nor probably your county, city and state. Not sure why your situation was so bad but I don' t think winning is a bad thing.

My post was basically directed at all those who take winning youth ball leagues and tourneys so seriously. As I believe Jake said, there is no such thing as serious or high level ball for 14 year olds. When the coaches take the games themselves too seriously, the kids suffer - win or loss.

Now, when it comes to teaching kids how to play the game the right way, how to work hard, be respectful and so forth, to being a positive force in the lives of the kids you coach - that is something that is impossible to take too seriously.

Like I said, in retrospect, all those tournament wins were good for is a few fond memories. Let's not have delusions of grandeur about some little tourney that seems like a real big deal to the kids. They are kids; they have no sense of perspective. You, as a coach, are supposed to given them some, not indulge them or feed their illusions.

[MSandman]

Perhaps, and for that I apologize, but having been a league administrator, I have seen the "get them ready for the next level" types, and I never found it to be a good approach, for lots of reasons.

Apology accepted. :blush: If you knew me, you'd know that I'm on the right side of the balance between having fun and competing. My main point was that I don't agree w/ Jake (on this point, tho I often DO agree w/ his comments) that "LL Majors should split playing time evenly". IMO, at this age, they already expect to be rewarded for their hard work, effort, attitudes, and yes, skill. My players' families seem to like my style, and I'm not at all considered a "win at all costs" coach in my league. I too am a league admin (board member), publishing our annual program book and maintaining our league website.

I'm really not evil. ;)

Back to baseball.:gt (our opening game is at 7:30EST tonight)

[Jake Patterson]

My main point was that I don't agree w/ Jake (on this point, tho I often DO agree w/ his comments) that "LL Majors should split playing time evenly". IMO, at this age, they already expect to be rewarded for their hard work, effort, attitudes, and yes, skill. My players' families seem to like my style, and I'm not at all considered a "win at all costs" coach in my league.
At this age establishing a balance that makes sense and errs on the side of learning is what's important.

[jima]

Guys if you fret over your team losing games when they are 12 to 14, then you have a problem that you need to resolve. If your greatest joy comes from seeing one the worst players on your team improve, then your youth baseball perspective is correct.

[Jake Patterson]

Guys if you fret over your team losing games when they are 12 to 14, then you have a problem that you need to resolve. If your greatest joy comes from seeing one the worst players on your team improve, then your youth baseball perspective is correct.

It's all a matter of keeping what we do as coaches in perspective and I believe it is easier to understand this when you have completed running the gauntlet and are able to look back. I feel this is why many pros (at least the ones I've spoken with about this topic) are more for teaching, developing and having fun than winning at all costs. Relative to playing at the their level everything else is just a game.

[TG Coach]

Relative to playing at the their level (pro)everything else is just a game.

I find this view to be snobbish. It means 99.7% of the baseball players who ever put on a uniform was only for the purpose of aerobic activity. While I played through college I consider players who play high school ball to be a decent athletes. In our area it means they beat out they beat out 95% of the competition they started with in LL and Ripken.

I don't find my friends who played pro ball look down on anything before the pro level. They do frown on taking preteen sports too seriously. So do I. The journey to high school ball starts when they hit the big field at thirteen.

[TG Coach]

Guys if you fret over your team losing games when they are 12 to 14, then you have a problem that you need to resolve. If your greatest joy comes from seeing one the worst players on your team improve, then your youth baseball perspective is correct.

What's to fret? A coaches responsibility at this age is to develop talent and put the team into position to win games. Winning and losing the games is not life altering.

[Jake Patterson]

I find this view to be snobbish. It means 99.7% of the baseball players who ever put on a uniform was only for the purpose of aerobic activity.
No it means that for that 99.7% it is just a game, nothing more. Not a living.

[SCLLDad]

" -- who is small and always relegated to the outfield for his minimum playing time -- I looked for some silver lining and hoped that at least he had an opportunity to get some time in the infield. Did he? Nope -- the winners stayed with their starting infielders the whole game!

I am a dad of a 9-year old playing his first year in the minors of our local LL organization. My son is a good athlete, having always done well in T-ball, coaches pitch, and most other sports. He is a state champ in wrestling, so athleticism is not a problem. I had hoped there would be some type of instruction to help him by the coaches, because I have played football and basketball, but never seriously picked up a bat or glove until I started playing church league softball after I was married. Since I know very little, I was hoping thecoaches would my knowledge gap. All 4 coaches have sons on the team who have played intense ball for several years and the coaches all played serious ball in their youth and in HS. I hoped they would be a big influence on my son, but have been greatly disappointed. Only one of these guys has attempted to "coach" my son to better batting, but even that influence had some fundamental flaws. I finally went to the library and checked out an instructional video by A-Game Sports. After about 5 minutes, I understood some of the reasons my son was having problems - including wrapping the bat behind his head - which these "Coaches" never addressed. All of their kids play multiple positions in the infield and never sit out. My son has repeatedly asked the coaches to play other positions, but is always relegated to the outfield in games. At one recent practice, they let my son don the catcher's gear and even commented that they "had a new catcher" based on how well he did blocking the ball and grabbing outside pitches. At tonight's game, the coach told my son that he might let him be catcher "next year." Even in a recent 16-6 blowout - they didn't mix him in the infield, while the head coach's son was allowed to pitch for the first time, walking 6 batters for part of an inning before they took him out. My son has only gotten better because he has busted his tail, begged me to go outside every day to throw and catch, and I have taken the time to try to learn proper techniques and actually go to the field and pitch to him.

The one question I ask my son is whether or not he has fun when he plays with the team. He says yes, but also keeps asking why coach won't let him play at catcher. I keep telling him to simply do his best at whatever position he plays and keep asking before each game. No whining or complaining - just ask for the opportunity and if denied, be the best outfielder he can be. We only have about 5 games left and I have talked to one of the coaches and sent an e-mail to the head coach asking nicely if he could try to play infield if we have another big game. We'll see what happens, but at this point, I'm guessing that he will enter the draft again next year to try to find a different set of coaches.

[Jake Patterson]

SCLL,
Why don't you suggest they read this thread and the attached articles. Or better yet - print the articles out and give to them to read. They can only change those items they recognize as wrong and what you describe sounds wrong, especially at that age. They just don't recognize it.

[TG Coach]

I am a dad of a 9-year old playing his first year in the minors of our local LL organization. My son is a good athlete, having always done well in T-ball, coaches pitch, and most other sports. He is a state champ in wrestling, so athleticism is not a problem. I had hoped there would be some type of instruction to help him by the coaches, because I have played football and basketball, but never seriously picked up a bat or glove until I started playing church league softball after I was married. Since I know very little, I was hoping thecoaches would my knowledge gap. All 4 coaches have sons on the team who have played intense ball for several years and the coaches all played serious ball in their youth and in HS. I hoped they would be a big influence on my son, but have been greatly disappointed. Only one of these guys has attempted to "coach" my son to better batting, but even that influence had some fundamental flaws. I finally went to the library and checked out an instructional video by A-Game Sports. After about 5 minutes, I understood some of the reasons my son was having problems - including wrapping the bat behind his head - which these "Coaches" never addressed. All of their kids play multiple positions in the infield and never sit out. My son has repeatedly asked the coaches to play other positions, but is always relegated to the outfield in games. At one recent practice, they let my son don the catcher's gear and even commented that they "had a new catcher" based on how well he did blocking the ball and grabbing outside pitches. At tonight's game, the coach told my son that he might let him be catcher "next year." Even in a recent 16-6 blowout - they didn't mix him in the infield, while the head coach's son was allowed to pitch for the first time, walking 6 batters for part of an inning before they took him out. My son has only gotten better because he has busted his tail, begged me to go outside every day to throw and catch, and I have taken the time to try to learn proper techniques and actually go to the field and pitch to him.

The one question I ask my son is whether or not he has fun when he plays with the team. He says yes, but also keeps asking why coach won't let him play at catcher. I keep telling him to simply do his best at whatever position he plays and keep asking before each game. No whining or complaining - just ask for the opportunity and if denied, be the best outfielder he can be. We only have about 5 games left and I have talked to one of the coaches and sent an e-mail to the head coach asking nicely if he could try to play infield if we have another big game. We'll see what happens, but at this point, I'm guessing that he will enter the draft again next year to try to find a different set of coaches.

Our high school varsity has two sophs starting. Both play outfield. The JV team rotates fourteen varsity prospects. Two outfielders rarely come out of the game. Why? Only four kids went out for outfield.

What do these four players have in common? They learned how to play outfield early in rec ball while all the other players their age were fighting over infield positions. The outfield is not a penalty. In fact, it may be the fastest road to playing high school varsity.

[Stealth]

The outfield is not a penalty. In fact, it may be the fastest road to playing high school varsity.

True - most kids look at the outfield as a penalty. The problem is as you say when they get to high school many of them can't play the outfield because they never played there in rec ball. All of my kids on my travel team (12U) have to go throuh all of the drills in practice (outfield and infield) so they can play all positions. They might not play all positions in a game but if I have to make adjustments they have at least gone through the steps in practice.

On my younger sons team in LL (9's, 10's and 11's) they constantly complain about the outfield. We keep our best players up the middle and rotate the others between the 2b and 3b to give all the kids a chance at the infield. It's cost us a few games probably but you just can't leave a kid at this age in the outfield all game. IMHO.

[jima]

I think I need to distinguish between rec teams and travel/tournament teams. My prior comment was meant to be consistent with rec teams where the kids are out there to have fun...instruction and improvement should be the goals not W/L. Travel teams are different...you are in a competitive environment and trying to win....but "Dad/coaches" should keep in mind that most High School coaches would rather see you moving kids around every game...that's because the HS coach doesn't know what he's going to need in terms of position players. TG, I think you do a diservice to serious ballplayers by establishing a postion for them that lets you win at 12/13/ or 14. They need to be able to play all positions at this age so they can compete for the available position in H.S.

[Jake Patterson]

... most High School coaches would rather see you moving kids around every game...that's because the HS coach doesn't know what he's going to need in terms of position players.

During our HS meetings I find that many HS coaches feel that pre-big field TB is killing baseball. Kids should have fun. Move them around....

[STM4UA]

I think I need to distinguish between rec teams and travel/tournament teams. My prior comment was meant to be consistent with rec teams where the kids are out there to have fun...instruction and improvement should be the goals not W/L. Travel teams are different...you are in a competitive environment and trying to win....but "Dad/coaches" should keep in mind that most High School coaches would rather see you moving kids around every game...that's because the HS coach doesn't know what he's going to need in terms of position players. TG, I think you do a diservice to serious ballplayers by establishing a postion for them that lets you win at 12/13/ or 14. They need to be able to play all positions at this age so they can compete for the available position in H.S.

Just because a kid is playing rec ball instead of travel doesn't mean he's just out there to only "have fun". There are plenty of highly competitive kids in rec ball who want to win as well as have fun.

[TG Coach]

TG, I think you do a diservice to serious ballplayers by establishing a postion for them that lets you win at 12/13/ or 14. They need to be able to play all positions at this age so they can compete for the available position in H.S.

Serious ballplayers can learn to play a position in a matter of weeks if they put in a lot of hard work. The advantage kids who played outfield before high school have is a better understanding of seeing the ball off the bat and angles. Last year in 13U the kids had primary and secondary positions. Everyone played some outfield. In 14U the kids are mostly at the positions they will play next year in high school.

[SCLLDad]

SCLL,
Why don't you suggest they read this thread and the attached articles. Or better yet - print the articles out and give to them to read. They can only change those items they recognize as wrong and what you describe sounds wrong, especially at that age. They just don't recognize it.

I've offered a few comments and their response was basically "Yeah, OK, what ever you say." These guys have the attitude that because they used to play, they must know how to coach and they don't even take advice from some of the other dads that played college ball. I'm in a position where if I voice my opinion too much, I'm afraid that they'll resent it and take it out on my son in terms of reduced playing time.

[SCLLDad]

Our high school varsity has two sophs starting. Both play outfield. The JV team rotates fourteen varsity prospects. Two outfielders rarely come out of the game. Why? Only four kids went out for outfield.

What do these four players have in common? They learned how to play outfield early in rec ball while all the other players their age were fighting over infield positions. The outfield is not a penalty. In fact, it may be the fastest road to playing high school varsity.

I agree with you that a skilled outfielder is valuable in older competition, but I would argue that at this age the outfield is truly a penalty for a kid who wants nothing more than to just have a chance to play the game. At this age it is typical that about 8 out of 10 hits are grounders, bunts, or other short hits that are played by the infielders. The infielders are getting almost all of the actual playing time and action, while the outfielders are waiting for something to happen or just backing up the infield. A kid that wants to really play is going to lose his sense of purpose and enthusisam for the game - which is what I see happening with my son. At this point, I'd almost rather get a plastic bat and wiffle ball and some of the neighborhood kids and play in the street like I did when I was a kid. At least he would be running, hitting, catching, and throwing with a smile on his face instead of wondering when he might get a chance to even touch the ball.

[jima]

Jake, I agree, pre big field travel teams cause more kids to move to lacrosse by the time they are 14 or 15 than any other reason...they've just had enough and want to do something else. jima

[Jake Patterson]

I've offered a few comments and their response was basically "Yeah, OK, what ever you say." These guys have the attitude that because they used to play, they must know how to coach and they don't even take advice from some of the other dads that played college ball. I'm in a position where if I voice my opinion too much, I'm afraid that they'll resent it and take it out on my son in terms of reduced playing time.

In my book and at our clinics we make the point that, "The measure of a good coach is not how well he knows the game, it's how well he can teach it."

Unfortunately some of the worse are those re-living the glory days.

[TG Coach]

I my book and at our clinics we make the point that, "The measure of a good coach is not how well he knows the game, it's how well he can teach it."

Unfortunately some of the worse are those re-living the glory days.

I find the youth coach's who didn't get any glory as a player and want some to be the worst.

The other night we biked to the park. There was a Ripken minors game. I love watching parental and coaching behavior. One coach paced back and forth every pitch for the two innings we watched. You could see the pain on his face with every out. You could see the exuberance with every hitter who got on base.

When his players weren't on the fence screaming the last inning he yelled at them, "Don't you want it?" I muttered, "Not as much as you coach." The parents who heard me laughed.

[Ursa Major]

I've offered a few comments and their response was basically "Yeah, OK, what ever you say." These guys have the attitude that because they used to play, they must know how to coach and they don't even take advice from some of the other dads that played college ball. I'm in a position where if I voice my opinion too much, I'm afraid that they'll resent it and take it out on my son in terms of reduced playing time. I really feel for you, SCLL. My son encountered the same type of coach in 7-8 y/o ball, because he wanted to (and DID) win the championship. Now I kick myself for letting him get away with it; fortunately, the league has since instituted a rule requiring that the kids switch from infield to outfield each inning.

It's probably too late, but doesn't your league have a division president or player agent or some such person who can intervene? And, I know you can hope that the coach's actions are taken into account when coaching choices are made by the league the following year, but they rarely are. When it comes down to it, leagues pick the "experienced" coaches over those who have a healthier set of values.

What really kills me is the hypocrisy of the coaches who insist that they're just playing the best players because they want to help the team win, but really just want to play their own kids regardless of their skill level, as you note. Or they let their own kids get away with screwing around in practice in ways that would earn other kids laps.

And, it's odd that these coaches are the lousiest at teaching techniques, partly because they can't fathom that what they learned thirty years ago might not be current thinking, or they just don't care about the development of anyone other than their own kids. It's good that you're taking a hand at teaching him yourself. If nothing else, it's great time together.

Also, your town may have a lower key summer baseball program that usually allows kids to move around and try new positions. I'd check that out. And, if your kid is really interested in being a catcher, you should contact Catching Coach (Dave Weaver) here or at Catchingcoach.com. If nothing else, he's got a two hour plus DVD that is the first and last word on youth catching.

Ursa

[digglahhh]

I find the youth coach's who didn't get any glory as a player and want some to be the worst.

The other night we biked to the park. There was a Ripken minors game. I love watching parental and coaching behavior. One coach paced back and forth every pitch for the two innings we watched. You could see the pain on his face with every out. You could see the exuberance with every hitter who got on base.

When his players weren't on the fence screaming the last inning he yelled at them, "Don't you want it?" I muttered, "Not as much as you coach." The parents who heard me laughed.

Two quick anecdotes:

Once I was umpiring a 9-10 y/o game and one team was beating the other team very badly. It was actually beginning to get dark (it was early in the season and daylight is at a premium). The star player of the winning team hit a hard grounder that the SS bobbled and recovered. The SS threw to first a fraction of a sec too late and the kid was safe by about half a step. I called him out anyway in the interest of getting the game to the point at which it would be "official." There was no way the other team was going to come back anyway. The kid's father threw a temper tantrum, berating me and asking why a "kid" was even allowed to ump (I was about 17 or 18 at the time). I tried to explain to the father that I didn't blow the call, rather I was trying to "get the game in," and that the game was already decided. He told me that I was "cheating his son out of a hit." I remarked that he should examine his own attitude and take stock of what he might be "cheating his son out of," like perhaps his youth... He didn't take the remark well (and maybe I shouldn't have said it), and things got pretty ugly. None of it was necessary.

Another time, I was coaching a basketball team and we were destroying another team very early in the game. I sat the better players (I didn't keep more than one or two starters on the court at any given time after the first quarter). After the game, the mother of one of the kids asked why her son (arguably the best player on the team) was sitting in favor of
"that fat scrub." Well, that "fat scrub" was standing a few feet away and heard the whole thing. Her kid was completely cool with it, that was the worst part. Luckily, I didn't have to have it out w/ the mother because her son (a great athlete and a real good kid, despite his mother's influence) got angry with her and told her that when he was unhappy and wanted her to stick up for him, he'd ask her to.

[TG Coach]

I tried to explain to the father that I didn't blow the call, rather I was trying to "get the game in," and that the game was already decided. He told me that I was "cheating his son out of a hit."

You learned you shouldn't explain things to fans/parents. As a coach and a parent I chuckle at these calls and tag them "Moving right along" calls. They don't affect the game.

What dad doesn't realize is no one cares about batting averages. Even when the high school coach starts watching kids he's looking at the swing and contact, not the average.

My son doesn't worry about batting average. After yesterday's game I told him he had some nice swings. He said the ball never looked bigger. Then he laughed and added he wished he hadn't hit two right at fielders who the ball looked huge also.

The only part a player can control is his preparation, pitch selection and swing. Once the ball leaves the bat he can't control the hops, fielders and umpires. For the good players this stuff balances out over the course of the season.

[Ursa Major]

TG Coach: The only part a player can control is his preparation, pitch selection and swing. Once the ball leaves the bat he can't control the hops, fielders and umpires. For the good players this stuff balances out over the course of the season.That's absolutely right. My son is probably the fifth best hitter on his team, but was probably leading the team in batting during the early part of the season on the strength of two bunts and a couple of infield hits before he (and the others) found their strokes and started getting the ball into the outfield consistently. Then he took a sombrero (0 for 4) in a game where he hit the ball hard but right at people. He was surprised I was so calm and complimentary after the game. I made just that point: you give it your best swing and, once you make contact, it's all in the hands of the gods after that. I think he got the point when he had a 2 for 4 game after that but all anyone could talk about was the blast that got caught by the outfielder.

As far as the coach who felt his son got cheated out of a hit by your call, Digglahhh, I can't help but think that your description of the call tells you what kind of scorekeeping that the coach insisted on to make sure his son got credited with hits in what are obvious error situations. And you'd hope that the tantrum would clue his team's parents in as to where his priorities are.

I was tempted to try a little of that "he needs a hit" plea on an umpire Sunday, when one of our nicest kids with a big swing blasted a skimmer down the third base line. It ticked off the third baseman's glove just inside the bag and hit the base and then the third base umpire, who was trying to jig out of the way and wasn't able to make the call, then trickled out of bounds for what should have been a double. Everyone just stood there, unsure of what to do, and the home plate umpire just figured he'd bail out his partner by decreeing the ball to be foul. But, this kid only has one hit this season (an infield wedge shot that the second baseman couldn't handle in front of him) and he really needed the encouragement. But, we had to let it go, reassuring the kid that we knew he had a double.

[digglahhh]

What dad doesn't realize is no one cares about batting averages. Even when the high school coach starts watching kids he's looking at the swing and contact, not the average.

They hardly even care about that stuff at the high levels. I worked in the Stats Dept. at MLB and had who knows how many arguments with PR directors, coaches, managers etc. who were trying their best to disingenuously shave a few ERs of their pitchers.

Parent organizations don't really care. When you take into consideration how much ERA is dependent on your defense and the quality of opposing hitters, a MLB executive should be fired on the spot if a .3 run difference in a minor league pitcher's ERA has any influence whatsoever over his opinion or evaluation of the prospect.

[XFactor]

I have an article from page 15 of THE MESA REPUBLIC - Thursday, April 12, 2007

Good coaches rotate kids to many positions

Mailbag:
"During our all-star season, I didn't spend a lot of time with my husband. He was methodically preparing rotations for our next game/tournament.
My husband spent countless hours perfecting a rotation that included 14 players, a rotation of playing time that was constantly changing. There are factors in every decision a coach makes, the grength of the team, the talent each child brings to the team, etc., but the biggest determining factor to him is the effort given by the individual player.
My husband can take a player, even a below-average player by the standards of many coaches, and incorporate fair playing time for him. He identifies their strengths and nearly perfects it and he detects their weaknesses and creatively challenges them in a way that elicits the strongest work ethic I have ever seen.
He cares deeply for his students/players, and they reciprocate tenfold. It shows on the court. They do their best because they respect him. He just demands that they give best effoct - while never losing sight that "Johnny's" best is different than "Jacob's."
I guess the point of my letter is, in this world plagued with bad examples of coaching in every sport, I am proud of my husband. Without fail he always has a large roster of players. Kids want to play for him and parents want him coaching their children.
His team (our child included) has the most wonderful experience every year. He rotates each child every game. Even our "alternate" for all-stars this year received a tremendous amount of playing time.
Most people thought our team would not have a win this year, but the kids worked hard, put forth their best efforect, respected their coach [and the game] and our record was 18-6.
Teamwork plus dedicated coaching can't equal anything less than success." - Rhonda Cisco Kenova, W.Va.

Response:
"Thank you for your didcation and commitment to our kids. Your husband is a great example of what kids need in a coach. This is my hope and dream for more youth coaches.
Your story leads perfectly into what I want to share this week. It is baseball season, and with this sport comes one of the most common coaching errors for our children: Playing kids at the same position every game, all season long.
Stop it! Be creative! Find a rotation plan! For too many right fielders, they never get to taste the dust of the infield. There are too many shortstops that never get the chance to figure out how to stay awake in right field.
It really is a benefit for these kids to play multiple positions. For them to fully understand how to master one position (maybe their favorite), they need to experience the other sports. There is a "carryover" effect of learning and application that occurs during this process. Becoming a more wll-rounded and knowlegeable player is usually the outcome.
The other benefits are seen in the atmosphere of the team. This way, all players are given the sense of significance. They now are a major contributitor on the team, feeling valued, and a sense of unity is created.
How about the fact that it gives the "late bloomers" time to mature before tehy loose hope and quit? Today's weak and timid right fileder may be tomorrow's all-star first basemen.
My warning in this process is to not compromise safety. BE wise in placing kids in a position that could result in an injury to him or the other players.
The smile is priceless on the face of a perennial short, skinny right fielder who comes home with an infield-dirtied shirt because he made a diving catch while playing second basel." - Tom Kuyper


And PS, skill aquisition is faster when the individual is enjoying himself (having fun), rather than, "I'd rather not do this"

[Jake Patterson]

Good post .

[bluezebra]

Two quick anecdotes:

Once I was umpiring a 9-10 y/o game and one team was beating the other team very badly. It was actually beginning to get dark (it was early in the season and daylight is at a premium). The star player of the winning team hit a hard grounder that the SS bobbled and recovered. The SS threw to first a fraction of a sec too late and the kid was safe by about half a step. I called him out anyway in the interest of getting the game to the point at which it would be "official." There was no way the other team was going to come back anyway. The kid's father threw a temper tantrum, berating me and asking why a "kid" was even allowed to ump (I was about 17 or 18 at the time). I tried to explain to the father that I didn't blow the call, rather I was trying to "get the game in," and that the game was already decided. He told me that I was "cheating his son out of a hit." I remarked that he should examine his own attitude and take stock of what he might be "cheating his son out of," like perhaps his youth... He didn't take the remark well (and maybe I shouldn't have said it), and things got pretty ugly. None of it was necessary.

Another time, I was coaching a basketball team and we were destroying another team very early in the game. I sat the better players (I didn't keep more than one or two starters on the court at any given time after the first quarter). After the game, the mother of one of the kids asked why her son (arguably the best player on the team) was sitting in favor of
"that fat scrub." Well, that "fat scrub" was standing a few feet away and heard the whole thing. Her kid was completely cool with it, that was the worst part. Luckily, I didn't have to have it out w/ the mother because her son (a great athlete and a real good kid, despite his mother's influence) got angry with her and told her that when he was unhappy and wanted her to stick up for him, he'd ask her to.

He told me that I was "cheating his son out of a hit."

Forget about the hit. YOU CHEATED to get the game over. I find that reprehensible. I hope you never umpired after that season. There is no reason, or excuse, for an official to cheat. PERIOD!!!

Bob

[digglahhh]

He told me that I was "cheating his son out of a hit."

Forget about the hit. YOU CHEATED to get the game over. I find that reprehensible. I hope you never umpired after that season. There is no reason, or excuse, for an official to cheat. PERIOD!!!

Bob

So, continue the massacre of the game and the self esteem of the 8 year olds on the other team... If it gets dark before the game is official, nothing counts and who knows how many players and parents have to shuffle their schedules for a make-up game. Not making calls like that cheats an entire team out of a win...

"No excuse," in the theoretical, perhaps. When we deal with reality, pragmatics and all those other pesky nuisances, the paradigm shifts a little.

The allegation that I "cheated" is an absurd mangling of the spirit of that word.

Coming from the member who dedicates half his posts to pretentiously pointing out minor shortcomings in the grammar and usage of other's posts, no less...

Every time I think you can't outdo yourself again, you just keep setting the bar to new heights, Bob.

[Jake Patterson]

So, continue the massacre of the game and the self esteem of the 8 year olds on the other team... If it gets dark before the game is official, nothing counts and who knows how many players and parents have to shuffle their schedules for a make-up game. Not making calls like that cheats an entire team out of a win...

"No excuse," in the theoretical, perhaps. When we deal with reality, pragmatics and all those other pesky nuisances, the paradigm shifts a little.

The allegation that I "cheated" is an absurd mangling of the spirit of that word.

Coming from the member who dedicates half his posts to pretentiously pointing out minor shortcomings in the grammar and usage of other's posts, no less...

Every time I think you can't outdo yourself again, you just keep setting the bar to new heights, Bob.

Diggs,
The point is - this is not a situation that an ump should deal with nor consider. His job is safety and calling a fair game according to the rules of the game - period. These blow outs are the responsibility of the coaches not the umps. As well intentioned as you were, an ump should never put himself in a position where they are considering the items you were concerned with. What I would have done (At the youth level only) is speak with the offending coach privately and see if I could help him make the right choice.

This coach blew it for all the reasons you noted.

Jake

[digglahhh]

Diggs,
The point is - this is not a situation that an ump should deal with nor consider. His job is safety and calling a fair game according to the rules of the game - period. These blow outs are the responsibility of the coaches not the umps. As well intentioned as you were, an ump should never put himself in a position where they are considering the items you were concerned with. What I would have done (At the youth level only) is speak with the offending coach privately and see if I could help him make the right choice.

This coach blew it for all the reasons you noted.

Jake

Yes. I agree with all this, in a general sense. These are kids, real young kids, though. The game is a blow out. Darkness is creeping and if we don't complete a few more half innings, nothing counts. This changes the landscape a bit.

The most important point is that there was a pressure regarding time, that is not something that is part of the normal dynamic of baseball. Introducing a foreign consideration influenced the dynamic.

Keeping score is a formality at the age of 8. This kid who was "cheated" out his hit probably hit about .800 on the season. It was an act that was inconsequential in the grand scheme of the kid's feelings and the game itself. The converse could have had real consequences. Not to mention, that if the game gets called, he gets cheated out of all of his hits...

At that age, if the kids have fun and feel good about themselves, they haven't gotten cheated out of anything.

[Jake Patterson]

At that age, if the kids have fun and feel good about themselves, they haven't gotten cheated out of anything.

I think we agree on every point. We just have different views on how it should be handled.

Worrying about batting average or being robbed of a hit at age 8 is rediculous.

[digglahhh]

I think we agree on every point. We just have different views on how it should be handled.

Worrying about batting average or being robbed of a hit at age 8 is rediculous.

Yeah, I think so.

I feel that I opted for the lesser of two evils. I can see the other side of it, too.

I just wasn't very appreciative of the crass, holier-than-thou manner in which the counter argument was raised.

[Jake Patterson]

Yeah, I think so.

I feel that I opted for the lesser of two evils. I can see the other side of it, too.

I just wasn't very appreciative of the crass, holier-than-thou manner in which the counter argument was raised.

Ahh... but that's part of the point. Blues are holier than us.

[digglahhh]

Ahh... but that's part of the point. Blues are holier than us.

and they'll be the first to tell you so...

[TG Coach]

Keeping score is a formality at the age of 8. This kid who was "cheated" out his hit probably hit about .800 on the season.

Who keeps batting averages at eight years old? I have no idea what my son hit at that age. Who cares! He had a nice swing for his age. He hit the ball hard. That, and he had fun was all the mattered.

[digglahhh]

Who keeps batting averages at eight years old? I have no idea what my son hit at that age. Who cares! He had a nice swing for his age. He hit the ball hard. That, and he had fun was all the mattered.

I'm not saying they did keep averages. I'm just saying that calling the kid out on a close play was not a blow to this kid's self esteem. This kid got enough hits that the outcome of that play didn't matter- to him. He was one of the best young players in the league, big for his age and lefty 1B with a real nice swing. He put the ball over the fence in more than one game I umped.

Calling him out on a bang-bang play to get the game in was no big deal in my mind. If this kid was one of the kids for which hits are few and far between, I wouldn't have done that. Making the kids feel good about themselves is the most important goal at that age. Obviously, I wouldn't call him safe, knowing he was out, to do it though.

I remember keeping my own stats at around that age. My mother would keep the scorebook and I would tally it all up. I would do it for the whole team, but she wouldn't let me hand it out because she didn't want those who weren't very to good to have to see their futility mathematically defined. She'd remind me that all the kids and coaches know who the best players in the league are and that there is no need to flaunt just how much better I was than some of my teammates. I didn't see it that way as a kid, I just wanted to have stats for me, like MLB players had. I wanted them to post an RBI leaderboard in the clubhouse - of course that was only because I would have been on it. My mother was wise, I was ten...

[jimmyc]

I agree with TG Coach. I agree it's important for the kids to show some competitive spirit but lets keep in mind that he was 8 yrs old. It sounds like his individual achievements were more important to the adults than the kids.