Baseball vs. Softball

[NotAboutEgo]

Why are there STILL people who say women should play softball and shouldn't play baseball? Why is baseball perceived differently than any other sport... in the way that NO OTHER sport has a second-hand game that people push females to play? Why do people think women are incapable of playing baseball but are capable of playing other sports?

[captlid]

Softball was originally invented as an indoor winter game by men looking to train during the off-season. Keep in mind that not long ago colleges weren't even offering fastpitch softball to the girls, but slow pitch softball. It took some time to convert to that.

When I was in high school, women's basketball only started being offered in 1992. :dismay:

They are two totally different sports and IMHO its very immature of participants in either sport to bash each other. Its the same BS between skateboarders and aggressive skaters.

I recently asked a member on another board whether his daughter would continue playing baseball after little league. Dad's answer "Probably not, but there is still a possibility. She is the smallest player on both teams."

Also read an article on ESPN insider about a thirteen year old baseball pitcher in upstate New York and her dream is to play softball for some college. Kid throws about 70 MPH according to the article.

Unfortunately I can not give your question the answer it deserves. They are totally different sports. Why american society assumes that fastpitch is just another version of baseball is beyond me.

[NotAboutEgo]

Softball was originally invented as an indoor winter game by men looking to train during the off-season. Keep in mind that not long ago colleges weren't even offering fastpitch softball to the girls, but slow pitch softball. It took some time to convert to that.

When I was in high school, women's basketball only started being offered in 1992. :dismay:

They are two totally different sports and IMHO its very immature of participants in either sport to bash each other. Its the same BS between skateboarders and aggressive skaters.

I recently asked a member on another board whether his daughter would continue playing baseball after little league. Dad's answer "Probably not, but there is still a possibility. She is the smallest player on both teams."

Also read an article on ESPN insider about a thirteen year old baseball pitcher in upstate New York and her dream is to play softball for some college. Kid throws about 70 MPH according to the article.

Unfortunately I can not give your question the answer it deserves. They are totally different sports. Why american society assumes that fastpitch is just another version of baseball is beyond me.

Exactly... and thus, they should be seen as 2 completely different sports, regardless of which gender plays them... and softball should NOT be seen as the fair substitute for females who want to play baseball. There are similarities between the 2, but they are completely different games.

We can fairly say that basketball and hockey are similar sports... they both have nets at each end of the playing surface, each team "defends" the net on their end trying to keep the opponent from scoring into that net, both sports are played by time, both have intermissions, both have referees, in both sports they switch sides after each intermission, points are scored by putting the object that is played with (ball/puck) into the net on the other end, the object of each game is the same (score more points than the opposing team), etc... but, we can also fairly say that they are 2 different sports.

I went to a collegiate fast pitch game a couple of years ago in which my women's team was recruiting softball players at to play baseball. It was the first fast pitch game I had been to since the ones I played when I was in high school. I started playing organized baseball in 1999... 7 years of baseball experience. I could not believe how foreign the game of fast pitch softball was to me after that amount of time and after playing hardball for so long. I didn't even know all the rules anymore, and it seemed so weird to me. I felt very much like a fish out of water just watching the game. Along with that, I knew that I would never be able to play fast pitch again, because I don't like the game at all, and I love baseball.

Tell me that fast pitch and baseball are the same game... :confused: :shrug: !!!

[captlid]

Hey, there's netball (similar to basketball) and rinkette (similar to hockey) that is also predominantly played by females.... :shrug:

[brewcrew82]

Hey, there's netball (similar to basketball) and rinkette (similar to hockey) that is also predominantly played by females.... :shrug:

Netball was originally known as "Womens Basketball", though I have no idea when the name changed.

[JeepingBaseball]

I thought Netball was more of an Australian thing, with a seperate set of rules?

[brewcrew82]

It was actually invented in the United States I believe, but played more elsewhere.

[NotAboutEgo]

I had never heard of netball until I saw a poster for it at the YMCA where I used to workout. It sounds like fun and looks competitive. I don't know anything about it besides seeing the poster. Without knowing anything about it, I'd say it's similar to basketball but is not the same sport.

[Baseball Mum]

Yes, netball and basketball are similar to each other, but are very different games. For one, there's no dribbling in netball, and travelling is out. Only 2 people can shoot a goal too, and the offside rules vary depending on what position you're playing. If you ever get to see Australia and New Zealand play against each other you'll see what an incredibly fast and extremely competitive game it is.

Softball and baseball are likewise, similar, but quite distinctly different. They are, though, a little closer together than netball and basketball.

Netball is generally a girls game, but there are mixed comps and some mens comps. More men are becoming involved. The thing is that here in Australia, where it is THE most played sport of ANY in our country, (that includes football, everything, played by anybody, male or female, child or adult), nobody would think of telling a girl she had to play netball if what she was interested in was basketball or visa versa. Some boys might get it the other way if they wanted to play netball, but that is changing.

[NotAboutEgo]

Yes, netball and basketball are similar to each other, but are very different games. For one, there's no dribbling in netball, and travelling is out. Only 2 people can shoot a goal too, and the offside rules vary depending on what position you're playing. If you ever get to see Australia and New Zealand play against each other you'll see what an incredibly fast and extremely competitive game it is.

Softball and baseball are likewise, similar, but quite distinctly different. They are, though, a little closer together than netball and basketball.

Netball is generally a girls game, but there are mixed comps and some mens comps. More men are becoming involved. The thing is that here in Australia, where it is THE most played sport of ANY in our country, (that includes football, everything, played by anybody, male or female, child or adult), nobody would think of telling a girl she had to play netball if what she was interested in was basketball or visa versa. Some boys might get it the other way if they wanted to play netball, but that is changing.

It seems like it would be a lot more challenging than basketball, since there's no dribbling at all and it has a lot more rules, like only two players being able to score. It sounds like a really fun game that I'd like to try someday.

[captlid]

Why are there STILL people who say women should play softball and shouldn't play baseball? Why is baseball perceived differently than any other sport... in the way that NO OTHER sport has a second-hand game that people push females to play? Why do people think women are incapable of playing baseball but are capable of playing other sports?

The biggest obstacle is how to convince women themselves that baseball is not something beyond their abilities once taught the finer points of the game. Including the adjustments needed to transition from softball.
I am trying to think of strategies on how to approach women who have reservations about playing baseball. So far I am stuck on the "its fun" part. :p

[NotAboutEgo]

The biggest obstacle is how to convince women themselves that baseball is not something beyond their abilities once taught the finer points of the game. Including the adjustments needed to transition from softball.
I am trying to think of strategies on how to approach women who have reservations about playing baseball. So far I am stuck on the "its fun" part. :p

An approach we've been using which seems to work well is to tell them, "Just come out and try it at one of our workouts. You don't have to commit or anything... just try it and see how it is for you." Also, tell them that if they've played competitive fast pitch softball, they probably won't have a problem with it at all. If they've played only slow pitch and are pretty athletic, it shouldn't be a problem, either. We had a player who had only played slow pitch before, and she was probably the best athlete on the team hands down... is a very fast runner, is very athletic and in shape, has terrific bat speed and torque when swinging, has a great arm, is a great hitter, has a great attitude, etc. She had absolutley no problem with hitting the ball even though she'd never played fast pitch before.

The biggest thing is to encourage them to try it and not feel intimidated by it. Don't tell them they are trying out, and let them know they can try it casually without having to commit. State it like it's a casual workout. We've done a women's baseball open house where we invited women to come just to try it. It was successful for us. Perhaps you could do something like that rather than stating it as a workout. Set up something that is festive and at the same time gives women an opportunity to try hitting, pitching, fielding, etc. You could also try bribing them with having snacks and/or food there!

[captlid]

You could also try bribing them with having snacks and/or food there!

That so works for college students especially! Tell them "free food" and they start flocking. :rofl:

[Mattingly]

How many women's HS or college teams play softball or baseball?

From what I remember during my elementary school years during recess and gym (outdoors), softball used a very large ball that was much softer than a typical rock-hard baseball. It feld kind of like a big heavy sponge.

What I don't remember was the type of bats they'd used. In whiffleball, they'd used plastic bats, but I'm unsure what a softball bat was like.

Now then, how many women (or girls) actually prefer playing baseball to softball? For those playing baseball, is all the equipment, such as the ball, bats and helmet types very similar to men's or boy's teams in similar age groups?

[JeepingBaseball]

i actually went to a the local ballpark where the county has several women's softball teams as well as co-ed softball teams. ALOT of men's softball teams as well.

And I just noticed something.... how come softball players dont wear protection of any kind? They all play in shorts, no one wears a batting helmet, and the catcher doesnt wear any equipment. And a softball isnt soft by any stretch of the imagination. Why are they putting themselves in such potential risks? meanwhile, the umpires were the strictest umpires I ever seen. Ejected players for using the wrong bat, wearing spikes, and so on. One guy hit the ball to the wall, ran all around to score home and the ump declared it a no run after inspecting his shoes at home plate. Threw the run and the player right out of the game. He inspected everyone. And there's no stealing bases in softball??

[VTSoxFan]

Now then, how many women (or girls) actually prefer playing baseball to softball?

I know that I wanted to play baseball. When I was in grade school the only team we had was softball, so I had no choice, and I didn't like it. Then in junior high, girls weren't allowed to play baseball, so I was going to reluctantly try for softball but other circumstances prevented even that.

All in all, if given my druthers, I would have played baseball.

[captlid]

Now then, how many women (or girls) actually prefer playing baseball to softball? For those playing baseball, is all the equipment, such as the ball, bats and helmet types very similar to men's or boy's teams in similar age groups?

Women's baseball is played on the same regulation diamonds as everyone else plays in every tournament I have ever been in. Metal spikes are allowed as long as the field owners allow them. OBR is used with provisions for some liberal substitutions and bats are not required to be drop -3. For girls 14 and up there are not any age splits in most lf the country because of the lack of players. NotAboutEgo can probably tell you more about the younger than 14 crowd. I will assume most girls under 13 play in little league or pony and play under those rulesets.
There is a large girls youth league somewhere in Rhode Island that's been around for a long while, think its called the Pawtucket Slaterettes.

I would love to know the answer to your question about how many girls prefer baseball to softball, unfortunately little league did not even give me a straight answer on how many girls play in their program.

[captlid]

And I just noticed something.... how come softball players dont wear protection of any kind? They all play in shorts, no one wears a batting helmet, and the catcher doesnt wear any equipment. And a softball isnt soft by any stretch of the imagination. Why are they putting themselves in such potential risks? And there's no stealing bases in softball??

There are three different versions of softball. Fastpitch, Slowpitch, and Modified. Fastpitch is the one that alllows, bunting, stealing, windmill or slingshot pitching. The catcher definetly wears full protection in that game, unless its men's fastpitch and the dude behind the plate is absolutely crazy!
Batting helmets are also worn. Last I checked Dudley's weigh more than a baseball and are much harder too.

Slowpitch and Modified rarely allow bunting or stealing and both dont allow windmill pitching. Some independant leagues do allow stealing though to prevent catchers from being lazy. The catcher usually only wears a mask and the players dont wear batting helmets.

About the shoes, some leagues have strict rules on what type of footwear is allowed to be worn. Some dont allow even rubber cleats, some of them insist on it etc... local rules and all.

There are also different types of softballs used in the various games. About the bats, maybe someone else can help me here, but the aluminum bats can be modified to make the ball go even faster off of them, just not sure how. This is prevalent mostly in Slowpitch.

Some leagues also use a safety base on 1st and at home. (Was really surprised to see this in one league.) Never really enjoyed the co-ed leagues in my area cause the guys tend to think if you are a girl you cant play for crap and they treat you as that. Some leagues even have a rule saying that if a guy gets walked and there's a girl behind him in the batting order she gets a free pass too.

My passion lies with baseball. :)

[NotAboutEgo]

Women's baseball is played on the same regulation diamonds as everyone else plays in every tournament I have ever been in. Metal spikes are allowed as long as the field owners allow them. OBR is used with provisions for some liberal substitutions and bats are not required to be drop -3. For girls 14 and up there are not any age splits in most lf the country because of the lack of players. NotAboutEgo can probably tell you more about the younger than 14 crowd. I will assume most girls under 13 play in little league or pony and play under those rulesets.
There is a large girls youth league somewhere in Rhode Island that's been around for a long while, think its called the Pawtucket Slaterettes.

I would love to know the answer to your question about how many girls prefer baseball to softball, unfortunately little league did not even give me a straight answer on how many girls play in their program.

Women's baseball is played with the same everything that men's baseball uses... bats, balls, helmets, bases, metal or rubber spikes (it's up to each player what they use... I have never seen any women's games that haven't allowed metal spikes)... 60' 6" pitching mound, 90 ft. bases, regulation outfields, etc. There have been a few competitions where the base paths are modified to 80 feet, but that usually only happens if there's a tournament with an upper and lower division... the lower division being for the inexperienced teams that are just starting out. I have seen that happen only a couple of times, and the majority of the women don't prefer to use modified base path distances. I would say, only players who aren't very experienced at all would prefer that, until they get used to the game. I'm not for it at all.

For girls' leagues that are for ages 15 and under or 14 and under (however the league is structured), they use little league/pony league fields... the same ones the boys use for the age groups. Several girls who are 13-15 and who play in girls' leagues (or in boys' leagues) and who are really good play on women's teams as well. They play on the smaller fields when in the girls' leagues, and they are on the larger fields when playing in the women's leagues and have no problem doing it. I've seen several 13-15 year olds and 16 and 17 year olds who have tremendous talent. Sometimes, it's not about the age but rather is about individual talent and skills.

My sister and I and cousins on my mom's side of the family played sports together all the time. My sister and I are the oldest, and then there are 2 guys and one girl (my aunt's kids) who are a little younger. We played baseball, basketball, ice hockey, soccer, football, tennis, etc. In the summer, we played sports all day long and swam in the lake. In the winter, we played ice hockey all the time. No one in our family ever told my sister and I and our female cousin we shouldn't be playing sports and they are for boys.

When my sister, one of our other cousins on our dad's side, and I were kids, we played baseball all the time and we played some football. Our grandpa played ice hockey and baseball as a kid, and he would always show us how to throw a curve ball and other pitches. He was good. He was in his 70's and still could throw a mean curve and other pitches. He never once told my sister and I we shouldn't play baseball because we're girls. He was always playing with us and treated my sister and I like he would treat anyone else playing the game. He's my baseball hero.

Baseball has always been my game and always will be. I played fast pitch growing up, but only because that was the only thing available to me and my sister. We lived in a rural area during this time, and there wasn't much there. If I would have had the chance to play baseball, I would have and never would have played softball. My dad once mentioned to the high school baseball coach that we were going to try out for baseball, and the coach said, "Girls don't play baseball." I think he has choked on his words many times now with what he said and with the baseball experiences I've had... because I have a LOT more baseball playing experience than fast pitch playing experience. It's sort of ironic that the coach said that, because his daughter played fast pitch with me in high school, and she was very good. I'd think he'd have a more open mind about sports since his daughter is a really good athlete. Goes to show that ego overrides that sort of thing with some people.

[captlid]

There have been a few competitions where the base paths are modified to 80 feet, but that usually only happens if there's a tournament with an upper and lower division... the lower division being for the inexperienced teams that are just starting out. I have seen that happen only a couple of times, and the majority of the women don't prefer to use modified base path distances. I would say, only players who aren't very experienced at all would prefer that, until they get used to the game. I'm not for it at all.

Totally agreed. Never have seen that though and would not want to play on it either. Too close to the batter using them high tech aluminum bats.

What size fields do the 13-15 girls in the girls leagues play on? I assumed they just play on 90/60'6 as soon as they hit thirteen.

Baseball has always been my game and always will be. I played fast pitch growing up, but only because that was the only thing available to me and my sister. We lived in a rural area during this time, and there wasn't much there. If I would have had the chance to play baseball, I would have and never would have played softball. My dad once mentioned to the high school baseball coach that we were going to try out for baseball, and the coach said, "Girls don't play baseball." I think he has choked on his words many times now with what he said and with the baseball experiences I've had... because I have a LOT more baseball playing experience than fast pitch playing experience. It's sort of ironic that the coach siad that, because his daughter played fast pitch with me in high school, and she was very good. I'd think he'd have a more open mind about sports since his daughter is a really good athlete. Goes to show that ego overrides that sort of thing with some people.

I never saw a softball until the age of 15 when I joined the fastpitch high school team. :p The only reason our fastpitch coach discouraged us from playing baseball was because he was afraid that the high school baseball coach would raid our team for its best players. :laugh

[NotAboutEgo]

Totally agreed. Never have seen that though and would not want to play on it either. Too close to the batter using them high tech aluminum bats.

What size fields do the 13-15 girls in the girls leagues play on? I assumed they just play on 90/60'6 as soon as they hit thirteen.



I never saw a softball until the age of 15 when I joined the fastpitch high school team. :p The only reason our fastpitch coach discouraged us from playing baseball was because he was afraid that the high school baseball coach would raid our team for its best players. :laugh

I'm not sure about the size of fields for 13-15 year olds. I've heard that some use the smaller fields... 54' mound or whatever it is. I think it depends on the league and the availability in the areas. Some may use the larger fields.

Funny about your HS fast pitch coach!

[TG Coach]

And I just noticed something.... how come softball players dont wear protection of any kind? They all play in shorts, no one wears a batting helmet, and the catcher doesnt wear any equipment. And a softball isnt soft by any stretch of the imagination. Why are they putting themselves in such potential risks? .... And there's no stealing bases in softball??

You must have been watching some adult rec league. My daughter plays college softball. She played ASA through high school. Batting helmets are a requirement. ASA requires facemasks. You will see some college players with masks and some without. My daughter never liked them so she took her's off in college. Her team has two uniforms. One is with long pants. This is the trend now. If they where shorts, they wear sliders. Sliders protect shins. They wear sliding shorts under the pants that are padded.

I coached travel softball through 18U. I've coached plenty of players now in college ball. I doubt one of them would want to play baseball. Most consider it slow and boring.

There is stealing in softball. Runners can leave on the pitcher's release. But between how quick the pitchers are to the plate and catcher's POP time, only the fleet can steal successfully.

[TG Coach]

... the aluminum bats can be modified to make the ball go even faster off of them, just not sure how.

Fastpitch bats are manuactured to specification mandated by ASA and the NCAA. Modifying a bat can get a player tossed and possibly suspended. Bats not stamped with ASA or NCAA approval are not allowed. The bats have a rating for how hard the ball can propel off it, just like LL through college metal baseball bats.

[TG Coach]

Totally agreed. Never have seen that though and would not want to play on it either. Too close to the batter using them high tech aluminum bats.

What size fields do the 13-15 girls in the girls leagues play on? I assumed they just play on 90/60'6 as soon as they hit thirteen.



I never saw a softball until the age of 15 when I joined the fastpitch high school team. :p The only reason our fastpitch coach discouraged us from playing baseball was because he was afraid that the high school baseball coach would raid our team for its best players. :laugh

It must have been a weak baseball program. All five seniors from my daughter's senior year played on four consecutive conference champions and made states twice. They're all playing college sotball now. Not one of them could have made the baseball team.

[captlid]

I coached travel softball through 18U. I've coached plenty of players now in college ball. I doubt one of them would want to play baseball. Most consider it slow and boring.


Why did the players that you interact with consider baseball slow and boring? Any specific reasons?


It must have been a weak baseball program. All five seniors from my daughter's senior year played on four consecutive conference champions and made states twice. They're all playing college sotball now. Not one of them could have made the baseball team.

The two girls that the high school baseball coach would have considered were both excellent hitters and had speed to burn in the outfield. Dont assume anything. ;)

[TG Coach]

Why did the players that you interact with consider baseball slow and boring? Any specific reasons?



The two girls that the high school baseball coach would have considered were both excellent hitters and had speed to burn in the outfield. Dont assume anything. ;)

The size of the field crossed with how hard the players can hit the ball and how fast they can run makes it a very quick reaction game. They see baseball as a "knock it down, find it, pick it up, throw 'em out" kind of game. Sixty-foot bases make for a two step game in the infield and the ball must be fielded cleanly. Baseball at ninety foot bases is more of a five step game in the infield.

I'm more into baseball since I played through college and now coach a 14U travel baseball team (younger kid), but I understand their perception.

As for girls having speed to burn, it's a relative term. My daughter also ran the 100 and 200 meter in indoor track. She had the opportunity to run college track. She couldn't have made the boys track team. She's really fast for a girl. Her speed is average for a male athlete. There's nothing to compare the hitting, but I know none of the five who are playing college softball could have made the baseball team. It's not a matter of how far they could hit the ball. It's more how hard they drive it so a fielder can't catch up to it on a big field and get them out because of the fielder's foot speed and reactions.

Maybe it's because we're a large school classification with a lot of competition for roster spots. Our JV team could beat some smaller school's varsity. I could see a girl being better than some of the boys in a small classification high school.

[RightEGirl]

Hi all,

I thought I might weigh in here a little. I have played Fastpitch Softball internationally and at the highest levels. I played baseball (with the boys) from age 4 to 15, when I was told I was not allowed to try out for the HS Baseball Team -- not even JV. I have played Slowpitch softball when there wasn't anything else in the area to play; it was fun and helped me stay in shape and keep fielding reactions and my arm sharp. I now play in men's MABL/MSBL Baseball Leagues and in Women's tournaments when I can find a team to play with. I recently played in the RH WWS and am headed to Hong Kong with the WBL NorthStars.

I read this forum a lot, and I'd LOVE to play in a professional women's baseball league...no doubt about it. I'd jump at the chance. I absolutely, positively love baseball, and am committed to spending the remaining years of my ball-playing career exploring how far I might go in Baseball. But...it must be said that I loved Fastpitch Softball as well, and spent numerous years rising through the ranks and establishing myself, honing my craft, etc. And...although I played at the highest levels locally available in slowpitch softball (both women's leagues and co-ed), it never challenged me in all aspects (hitting, fielding and baserunning) in the way that Fastpitch and Baseball do. This is not to dismiss slow-pitch. I think it's a fine game and I know I will return to it one day when I'm done with the other sports. But... please note...I just said the "other sports." From this, I hope you'll conclude that I treat them all as different -- very different, actually -- sports. They are not, in my opinion, variations of each other. The skill sets and strategies are very different, and other than the basic mechanics of catching, throwing, and making a good, solid technically correct swing, they're very different one from the other.

My point is this: In my opinion, each sport should be appreciated for what it is. They are all worthy of play, and I don't believe it's a hierarchy. I love baseball, and that's my new ballplaying career path, happily returned to after numerous years of hiatus. Do I regret the years I played Fastpitch? Absolutely not. I loved the game, my teammates, and all the travels. Do I regret the slowpitch seasons? Not at all. I have numerous friends from those seasons and I had a blast. But... I feel very honored to be part of something special now. I see the development of Women's Baseball now as something that will be looked on in retrospect as historical, and I'm glad to be a part of that history. In this forum (in its various threads), we all read and debate about female player development, how girls and boys and men and women stack up against one another physically and in talent (and whether that is a fair comparison to make or not), and whether a WMLB could be viable based on the level of development, infrastructure, talent base, etc. All I can say to all the subjects is YES!!! Not necessarily "yes, we're ready for a WMLB" (although I'd love that to be the case), but "YES" as in wow, I'm so happy we're in an era where we can actually talk about (and disagree about at times) these issues. I hope I am remembered as one of the "early" players of the Women's Baseball Renaissance. I certainly know I'm not a founder or key person in the movement -- I just hope to be remembered as one of the "early ones"...and of course, I'd love for a pro league to be developed before it's too late for me to eke out a season or two. Let's consider ourselves lucky to be able to argue about and promote WOMEN'S Baseball.
I'm honored to have the chance to voice my thoughts.
Best to all,

Tiffany J. Brooks (I don't have a problem with anonymity here)

[NotAboutEgo]

Hi all,

I thought I might weigh in here a little. I have played Fastpitch Softball internationally and at the highest levels. I played baseball (with the boys) from age 4 to 15, when I was told I was not allowed to try out for the HS Baseball Team -- not even JV. I have played Slowpitch softball when there wasn't anything else in the area to play; it was fun and helped me stay in shape and keep fielding reactions and my arm sharp. I now play in men's MABL/MSBL Baseball Leagues and in Women's tournaments when I can find a team to play with. I recently played in the RH WWS and am headed to Hong Kong with the WBL NorthStars.

I read this forum a lot, and I'd LOVE to play in a professional women's baseball league...no doubt about it. I'd jump at the chance. I absolutely, positively love baseball, and am committed to spending the remaining years of my ball-playing career exploring how far I might go in Baseball. But...it must be said that I loved Fastpitch Softball as well, and spent numerous years rising through the ranks and establishing myself, honing my craft, etc. And...although I played at the highest levels locally available in slowpitch softball (both women's leagues and co-ed), it never challenged me in all aspects (hitting, fielding and baserunning) in the way that Fastpitch and Baseball do. This is not to dismiss slow-pitch. I think it's a fine game and I know I will return to it one day when I'm done with the other sports. But... please note...I just said the "other sports." From this, I hope you'll conclude that I treat them all as different -- very different, actually -- sports. They are not, in my opinion, variations of each other. The skill sets and strategies are very different, and other than the basic mechanics of catching, throwing, and making a good, solid technically correct swing, they're very different one from the other.

My point is this: In my opinion, each sport should be appreciated for what it is. They are all worthy of play, and I don't believe it's a hierarchy. I love baseball, and that's my new ballplaying career path, happily returned to after numerous years of hiatus. Do I regret the years I played Fastpitch? Absolutely not. I loved the game, my teammates, and all the travels. Do I regret the slowpitch seasons? Not at all. I have numerous friends from those seasons and I had a blast. But... I feel very honored to be part of something special now. I see the development of Women's Baseball now as something that will be looked on in retrospect as historical, and I'm glad to be a part of that history. In this forum (in its various threads), we all read and debate about female player development, how girls and boys and men and women stack up against one another physically and in talent (and whether that is a fair comparison to make or not), and whether a WMLB could be viable based on the level of development, infrastructure, talent base, etc. All I can say to all the subjects is YES!!! Not necessarily "yes, we're ready for a WMLB" (although I'd love that to be the case), but "YES" as in wow, I'm so happy we're in an era where we can actually talk about (and disagree about at times) these issues. I hope I am remembered as one of the "early" players of the Women's Baseball Renaissance. I certainly know I'm not a founder or key person in the movement -- I just hope to be remembered as one of the "early ones"...and of course, I'd love for a pro league to be developed before it's too late for me to eke out a season or two. Let's consider ourselves lucky to be able to argue about and promote WOMEN'S Baseball.
I'm honored to have the chance to voice my thoughts.
Best to all,

Tiffany J. Brooks (I don't have a problem with anonymity here)

Great post, Tiff. For me, baseball has always been it. I grew up playing fast pitch, but only because of not being able to play baseball. Yes, baseball, fast pitch, and slow pitch all are very different games from one another, and baseball is the only choice for me... the only type of ball game I desire to play. I have no problem with the other two, but I do have a HUGE problem with people pushing females into fast pitch and telling them they can't play baseball. So many of us women baseball players play baseball in coed, men's, and women's leagues and competitions. We just love the game and love playing it. I sit at work all the time thinking about how all I want to do is to be on the baseball field day in and day out (even though I love my professional career). If I had the chance to be a pro ball player, I'd be there in an instance. I don't need to make millions, either. I'd be satisfied with an honest living... like the MLB players of the past had. It's about doing what you love to do and making a living from it... that which makes you happiest.

[sandif]

"If it were easy, they'd call it baseball."

Now I didn't come up with the saying, but I like it! And I have nothing against baseball; I love it, too. I don't know why women play softball, but it's just as exciting, or even more so than baseball. And let me tell you, it's not easier.

A few years ago when my daughters were playing majors Little League - it was the one year when they both played on the same LL team. My younger daughter was a 9 year old, and my older daughter was 12. Before the start of the season we held a Jamboree where the teams played each other. We had three major league girls team and my daughters' team ended up playing a boy's majors team. Both my daughters were pitchers, and my older daughter started the game. The girls pitched softball style and the boys pitched baseball style. The boys could not hit my daughter - the pitching was just way too fast. She sat them all down and they were quite frustrated. Some of the boys who were better sports (and more sure of themselves) just shook their heads and laughed.

Now, on the other hand, when my daughter got up to bat, she hit a triple! Not a power hitter, she'd never hit a triple in her life. Her forte was speed and she often got on with singles. Our girls could smack the heck out of the baseball, but the boys could not catch up to the pitching. We ended up beating them 7 to 2, I believe. The boys even had trouble hitting against my 9 year old who gave up the two runs.

There was quite a crowd gathered and I have to say it was one of the most fun games I've ever watched. I'm not sure how the men who only had sons felt - but I can imagine! Softball takes a lot of hard work and practice to be good.

[NotAboutEgo]

Does anyone else get sick and tired of trying to get people to realize that you play REAL BASEBALL and not softball? I don't know how many times I have to correct people... the SAME people... when they ask me how our season is going. They are co-workers and people I see frequently. They insistently ask, "How's your softball team doing?" I want to pull my bleeping hair out! I constantly correct them saying, "Baseball... not softball." Yet, they still don't get it. They say, "Oh." Then, the next time I see them, they ask the SAME thing! Is it really that hard to comprehend something when someone tells it to you over and over again?

Just the other day, I was keeping score for one of my coach's son's baseball team. I talked with my coach's sister during part of the game. We had just met, and I told her about my team and how I want to create a local women's BASEBALL league and a girls' youth BASEBALL league. She told me about a guy who has a bunch of girls' softball teams, and she said he would love to talk to me about what I want to do. So, I was thinking, "Here's a great opportunity to get a girls' league going and not have to find all the players myself. It could be something that will stick."

Well, the next time I saw my coach's sister, she said she gave my info to the guy, and then she started talking about softball. At that moment, it hit me that she was thinking the whole time that I had been talking about fast pitch softball. I corrected her and said, "No, we play baseball, not softball, and the leagues I want to start are baseball leagues... not softball leagues." She was silent for a few seconds and said, "Oh." She seemed at a loss for words after that.

How frustrating!!! I don't understand why it's so hard for so many people to grasp the concept that women and girls can and do play BASEBALL. No matter how much you tell some people, they still don't get it! They think the word BASEBALL means softball. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!

The human mind blows me away all the time with it's inability to grasp certain concepts. I can see why some things hardly ever change for the better!!!

:confused: :eek: :dismay: :noidea: :shrug:

[JeepingBaseball]

I go thru the same thing. I found a simple fix in several ways.

For my family, I just show them a newspaper clipping or a book on women's baseball. When they read the word baseball, they look up in confusion and say "you play baseball?" and they read the rest. Took awhile but my family gets it now and has supported me greatly every since with it. For the cousin's, I toss them a mitt and tell them to squat :)

For the general public, I do the same. But when I don't have anything to show them, I just have to use small words and repeat myself "baseball, as in over hand, as in hardball, as in what the big boys play, as what your son plays... baseball, do you understand what I mean by baseball?" Seems to do the trick.

But READING the word women and baseball together... it registers quicker.

[sandif]

Does anyone else get sick and tired of trying to get people to realize that you play REAL BASEBALL and not softball? I don't know how many times I have to correct people... the SAME people... when they ask me how our season is going. They are co-workers and people I see frequently. They insistently ask, "How's your softball team doing?" I want to pull my bleeping hair out! I constantly correct them saying, "Baseball... not softball." Yet, they still don't get it. They say, "Oh." Then, the next time I see them, they ask the SAME thing! Is it really that hard to comprehend something when someone tells it to you over and over again?

Just the other day, I was keeping score for one of my coach's son's baseball team. I talked with my coach's sister during part of the game. We had just met, and I told her about my team and how I want to create a local women's BASEBALL league and a girls' youth BASEBALL league. She told me about a guy who has a bunch of girls' softball teams, and she said he would love to talk to me about what I want to do. So, I was thinking, "Here's a great opportunity to get a girls' league going and not have to find all the players myself. It could be something that will stick."

Well, the next time I saw my coach's sister, she said she gave my info to the guy, and then she started talking about softball. At that moment, it hit me that she was thinking the whole time that I had been talking about fast pitch softball. I corrected her and said, "No, we play baseball, not softball, and the leagues I want to start are baseball leagues... not softball leagues." She was silent for a few seconds and said, "Oh." She seemed at a loss for words after that.

How frustrating!!! I don't understand why it's so hard for so many people to grasp the concept that women and girls can and do play BASEBALL. No matter how much you tell some people, they still don't get it! They think the word BASEBALL means softball. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!

The human mind blows me away all the time with it's inability to grasp certain concepts. I can see why some things hardly ever change for the better!!!

:confused: :eek: :dismay: :noidea: :shrug:


That's funny - lots of people use the term baseball when talking about softball just because it's a more common term - so it goes both ways. My daughters play REAL softball and it's just as competitive, fun, and takes the same amount of hard work to be good as it does to play baseball. A good athlete can play either - but the skills are different.

[captlid]

Does anyone else get sick and tired of trying to get people to realize that you play REAL BASEBALL and not softball? I don't know how many times I have to correct people... the SAME people... when they ask me how our season is going. They are co-workers and people I see frequently. They insistently ask, "How's your softball team doing?" I want to pull my bleeping hair out! I constantly correct them saying, "Baseball... not softball." Yet, they still don't get it. They say, "Oh." Then, the next time I see them, they ask the SAME thing! Is it really that hard to comprehend something when someone tells it to you over and over again?

It gets even worse when a player responds to an ad our league put out and asks, "Is this softball or baseball?" :dismay:

Yes it gets annoying at times, but I just keep repeating it. Usually just grab a baseball out of my pocket and show it to them. That does the trick most of the time, until the next time I see them. I got about half my friends and acquaintances converted over to the dark side. :)

[NotAboutEgo]

LOL...

My family has never had a problem with grasping the concept that I play baseball and not softball... probably because I always played sandlot baseball when I was a kid with my cousins (male and female cousins), uncles, dad, sister, grandpa, etc., and no one ever told us girls we shouldn't be playing baseball or hockey or football or whatever. They all think it's cool and support me greatly.

It's the non-family people who don't get it. Some of my co-workers who I work with directly understand, because I talk about it all the time... and my boss's 3-year old daughter loves baseball and wants to play it, so he bought her a mitt, a bat, and a ball for her birthday. He said he will let her be who she is and won't stear her in one direction over another :bowdown: (despite the fact that his mother-in-law wants his daughter to be girly, but she's athletic and not girly).

But, other people in the company and elsewhere always ask how my softball team is doing. When I tell them it's baseball and not softball, I don't think it gets to their brains the right way. And then, when it does on that very rare occasion, I also answer their 50 questions about whether we throw overhand, play on the same size field as MLB, can bunt, steal, lead off, use a "little" ball, etc. I think we've all been inundated with the same questions.

[NotAboutEgo]

That's funny - lots of people use the term baseball when talking about softball just because it's a more common term - so it goes both ways. My daughters play REAL softball and it's just as competitive, fun, and takes the same amount of hard work to be good as it does to play baseball. A good athlete can play either - but the skills are different.

People do use baseball as a common term, but when you play baseball and talk about playing baseball, it's not the same. Softball is one thing... baseball is another... so I don't get why people generalize. When I tell people I play baseball and they say they do, too... I always ask, "Do you play baseball or softball?" They usually always end up saying, "Oh... softball." I say that so they realize we are talking about 2 different sports. Half of the battle of making baseball a mainstream sport for girls and women is getting the status quo to open up to the idea of it.

I agree that it takes just as much hard work and effort along with a different skill set to play softball... as it does to play baseball. But, given the historical situation with women being told they can't play baseball and being held back from playing it when they love the game and want to play it, it really grates on your nerves when people assume you play softball, just because you're a woman or a young girl. It's annoying when you explain yourself, and they still don't get it. It's annoying, because they aren't opening their minds up enough to realize and accept the fact that you play baseball. They have a very hard time with the concept. It's more about human nature and the limited scope of the human mind in accepting things outside of its belief systems. It's stereotyping, generalizing, and is a gender bias, and it does no one any good.

It's more about changing people's perceptions which are very limiting, and it's more about people thinking you're incapable of doing something because of a superficial reason... like being a female. And that really grates on my nerves.

[captlid]

I also answer their 50 questions about whether we throw overhand, play on the same size field as MLB, can bunt, steal, lead off, use a "little" ball, etc. I think we've all been inundated with the same questions.

This doesn't annoy me. More than happy to explain to anyone anything they want to know about baseball. Alot of folks really don't know about the game's rules, strategies and equipment.

This just goes with the territory of promoting women's baseball. That's the way it is.

Just for giggles, I tell people our pitchers throw overhand and underhand. :p That should keep them thinking.

[NotAboutEgo]

This doesn't annoy me. More than happy to explain to anyone anything they want to know about baseball. Alot of folks really don't know about the game's rules, strategies and equipment.

This just goes with the territory of promoting women's baseball. That's the way it is.

Just for giggles, I tell people our pitchers throw overhand and underhand. :p That should keep them thinking.

When people inundate me with their questions, it's not because they don't understand the game of baseball and want to learn about it. They know very well the characteristics of the game. It's because they can't grasp the concept that women are capable of throwing overhand, leading off, stealing bases, running 90 ft. bases, pitching overhand from a 60'6" mound, throwing different pitches, etc. They are baffled by the idea, even though women have been doing it on organized teams at least since 1866.

[RightEGirl]

Good luck, Logan!

Tiff


Indiana girl sues for chance to play baseball
Updated: November 24, 2008, 7:27 PM EST

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - Logan Young has been playing baseball with the boys for nine years, and she and her parents don't think that should change now that she's in high school.

The 14-year-old and her family have filed a federal lawsuit over an Indiana High School Athletic Association rule that prohibits the Bloomington South freshman from trying out for the high school baseball team because she is female.

"In this day and age, a girl should have the opportunity to participate on an equal footing with the boys in high school sports and the IHSAA precludes that," Tae Sture, one of the family's attorney's, said Monday.

"Our feeling is, quite frankly, there's no rational reason for it," he said.

An IHSAA rule prohibits girls from trying out for baseball if their school has a softball team on the basis that the sports are comparable. But the lawsuit filed Friday in U.S. District Court in Indianapolis argues that baseball and softball aren't the same sport, so girls should be able to try out for baseball.

The suit seeks to have the IHSAA rule thrown out based on the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and Title IX, the federal law that mandates equal educational opportunities for boys and girls.

The suit, filed by Logan and her parents, Marie-Elisabeth and Russell Young of Bloomington, names the IHSAA and the Monroe County Community school district as defendants.

Logan has played third base and outfield in coed community baseball leagues since age 5. She also plays volleyball and basketball.


Her family contacted the IHSAA in May to see whether Logan could participate in baseball during the 2008-09 season. Commissioner Blake Ress said she couldn't because Bloomington South has a softball team, the lawsuit said.

A phone message left Monday seeking comment from Ress wasn't immediately returned.

The high school, which has a female kicker on its football team, supports Logan's desire to play and is seeking a waiver so she can try out for baseball, said Bloomington South athletic director J.R. Holmes.

But the lawsuit argues that a waiver — which requires showing extreme hardship — shouldn't be necessary.

"Softball and baseball are not the same sport, so she has the right to try out," said Sharon F. McKee, the lead attorney in the case. Under current rules, a boy wanting to play softball also would have to seek a waiver, she said.

Precedent may be on Logan's side, according to McKee. The West Virginia Supreme Court ruled in a similar case in 1989 that baseball and softball are not substantially equal sports, she said, and 24 state athletic associations already allow girls to choose between softball and baseball.

[metfan13]

I agree. She has the right to tryout.

However, if she wins and it's decided that they are not comparable sports, can boys tryout for softball?

[RightEGirl]

Hi Metfan13 and all interested int his discussion,

As I've said here in this forum before, I believe that if they are not deemed comparable sports (which having played both, I don't believe they are), and girls are allowed to tryout and play baseball on traditionally male teams, then boys should be allowed to tryout for and play softball on traditionally female teams-- until there are specific opportunities for each within each sport -- i.e., male softball and female baseball. I believe both of these variations are HIGHLY overlooked and underdeveloped. Although we have a Men's US National Softball team (and they do well), how many people outside of the sport know that? How many people outside of women's baseball know that we have a Women's Baseball National Team? Not many...yet (there are many of us working to get women's ball better noticed and better developed).

So this is the "hypothetical" answer...but what I think always underlies questions like this (not picking on you Metfan13...I just hear this ALL the time) is the so-called "reverse discrimination" argument... in other words, just as you asked, "can boys play softball then?" That question is usually a rhetorical one, as I'm not aware of a single case where a boy challenged or sued to play women's softball -- I'm not saying it hasn't happened...I'm just not aware of one yet. There is often a nasty undertone to this question also, that gets to the point of physical strength, speed, and (occasionally) reaction times. Some women may argue that we're equal in all these categories, but I don't. I know that the average male has the edge in all these categories over the average female. There are variations of course. I know that I am stronger, faster, and have better reaction times than some men, but I have to work HARD to reach these levels. I spend a lot of time in the gym to just "keep up" with the guys I play with -- just to be equal in physical assets to "average" guys who don't spend much time at the gym. What helps is if sometimes I have more talent than one of the guys...if I field better, have a better arm (yes it does happen) or hit with a higher average (or all of the above), then, given fairly equal strength, etc., I can compete and hold my own. There seems to always be this subtext in this argument that says "If you want to play Baseball, then how would you like it if a bunch of big, strong guys came in and smashed balls at you in softball? How would YOU feel if guys got into YOUR game?" The truth of the matter is that very few women (at the moment -- we'll see in a few years with better development opportunities) --are able to compete with the guys at the collegiate or (even fewer) at the pro levels. How many guys could play softball at the collegiate or pro levels? Likely more than the number of women who could play Baseball at the collegiate level, but that is simply based on pure athleticism with (on average) superior strength and speed. Not many guys would choose to pursue this path though, just as (at present) not many women (by percentage) choose to tryout for collegiate or HS baseball. Why? Because the present development systems favor men for baseball and women for softball..hence...it takes exceptional women to "make it" in men's baseball and it would take exceptional men to make it on women's softball teams -- for the same reasons...they are DIFFERENT games (think of Jenny Finch and other high-level softball pitchers striking out MLB hitters) and you can't just walk on to either sport and do well -- it takes time and development. And then there is the camaraderie issue...not many women WANT to play with the men and not many men WANT to play on a women's team.

We try to play on men's teams when:

1) Our passion for the game drives us to play --no matter what comments are made or what derision (and sometimes, fortunately, support) is offered. When we're willing to put up with nearly anything -- ranging from curiosity to outright animosity bordering on violence -- just to play the greatest game on Earth.
2) We don't have the opportunity to play women's baseball
3) We want to stretch our skills and learn new aspects of the game, face faster pitching, etc. No doubt about it...the guys pitch faster and smash the ball harder at me than the women do...on average.

Dispelling some Common Myths about why we play baseball on men's teams-- regardless of what you may have heard:
1) We DO NOT play because we want to make a point or shake up the system. Most of us are not radical feminists and are not doing it to "invade" men's traditional territory for shock value or publicity.
2) We are NOT playing on men's teams because we're looking for husbands or boyfriends...maybe this happens occasionally in lower levels of slow-pitch, but not in baseball.
3) We DO NOT want to be men, and we are NOT all "Tomboys" off the field, and NOT all of our dad's secretly wanted boys when they got us.

I mention these three items above, because these are ones I typically hear from male teammates -- once I get to know them better, and am just considered a "ballplayer" -- not "that girl" on the team any longer.

In short...why do we go through the sometimes painful process of trying out for and playing on men's/boys teams? BECAUSE WE LOVE THE GAME TOO, and there are no other opportunities for us to play baseball at HS, Collegiate or Pro levels. We have a few opportunities to play elite-level women's ball, and we all watch hungrily each year to see where and when those tournaments are, and then do everything possible to get there.

So... coming full circle...yes...I think compared to other countries BOTH the development of men's softball and women's baseball are highly overlooked and are not given a fair shake... just look at New Zealand and Australia for men's softball, and Canada and Japan in women's baseball. We have a looooooong way to go...for BOTH sports!

Best,

Tiff

[Macker]

it takes exceptional women to "make it" in men's baseball and it would take exceptional men to make it on women's softball teams -- for the same reasons...

I disagree. I have played the highest level of mens softball -- mens major division fastpitch. While most of the players played college baseball or low-level minor leagues, the vast majority of them did not play baseball beyond high school. They are mostly just men who like to play, and simply weren't good enough to go far in baseball. Most of us aren't exceptional men - just regular men.


they are DIFFERENT games (think of Jenny Finch and other high-level softball pitchers striking out MLB hitters) and you can't just walk on to either sport and do well -- it takes time and development.

Since I could pitch as fast as Finch and was never higher than #3 in the rotation, I can't take this seriously. It is true you can't just walk in & hit that pitching. As for MLB hitters, though, give them about 10 minutes to make the adjustment. If people like me, who weren't good enough for pro ball, can hit off guys throwing in the 90s from 46', I don't think it would take long for MLB to get the knack of it. So not only are the top women softball players not as good as the best men baseball players, they aren't as good as the best men softball players, and those men softball players are nowhere near as good as the best baseball players.

Yes, they are different games, but they are similar enough such that women should be careful what they wish for. While I have no problem with females playing baseball if they are good enough, it does open the door for men to play softball.

It's true that most men wouldn't want to play high school or college softball. However, suppose some boy lives where fastpitch is still popular, and he has older brothers or friends who play mens league? The kid has no delusions of playing pro baseball, so he figures he could play high school softball to get him ready for mens league.

[RightEGirl]

Hi Mackers,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think it's cool that you played Men's Majors... I played Women's Majors briefly before going overseas to play.

You certainly come at this discussion from a different point of view, and while I don't agree with or support some of your basic assertions, I do value and respect your viewpoint, based -- as we all do -- on your own personal observations and experiences.

It's nice that we can have the discussion. I remember having a similar one with the father of my host family in Sweden -- he was a former top-level (Premiers) Kiwi softballer. No doubt the men can bring it in softball! I watched some of the World Championships in Prague in 2007 and was impressed with the speed of the game.

Having said that I know a small amount about the top levels of men's softball, have you by any chance watched any games of the top level of women playing baseball? Just curious.

Oh..and in the scenario you mentioned about the young man wanting to play softball? More power to him!

And lastly, although you are quite humble and modest in your approach, I'd say that just by definition, if you are playing in the highest level of any sport (Men's Major Softball for example), regardless of background, you are "exceptional."

Best,

Tiff

[Macker]

have you by any chance watched any games of the top level of women playing baseball?

I have seen several womens national tournaments, and I watch college softball. I love a good game no matter what sex or age is participating. I've been at mens tournaments where a womens tournament was going on at the same complex. My teammates and I would watch games between our own and sometimes discuss whether any of the women we were watching could make our team. Other than some pitchers taking the place of older men (who can still pitch but lack the hitting power they once had) there were none.

[RightEGirl]

I think I'll let this one drop, as I completely disagree with your last post...I've seen plenty of women who could play men's majors (softball). I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Tiff

[NotAboutEgo]

I agree. She has the right to tryout.

However, if she wins and it's decided that they are not comparable sports, can boys tryout for softball?

This whole issue... the issue of girls and women having to fight to play baseball... started with MEN telling them they couldn't play baseball and had to play softball... *because softball is the game for women and baseball is the game for men*.

Tiff's answer to you says it ALL. Your response IS a cry of reverse discrimination... a VERY faulty one at that. And, it's a response of jealousy that's based on insecurity of the fact that you can't handle the idea of females playing baseball, and you think men have all the rights and women should just shut up and put up.

NO ONE owns ANY sport. Everyone has the right to play whatever sport they choose, and you or no one else has the right to tell them otherwise. So if you want to come back and say things like *guys should be allowed to try out for softball teams JUST BECAUSE women want to play baseball and often have to take the matters into court in order to be able to do so*, you are the hypocrite.

It's time you face your insecurity. Step up and be a REAL man.

[metfan13]

This whole issue... the issue of girls and women having to fight to play baseball... started with MEN telling them they couldn't play baseball and had to play softball... *because softball is the game for women and baseball is the game for men*.

Tiff's answer to you says it ALL. Your response IS a cry of reverse discrimination... a VERY faulty one at that. And, it's a response of jealousy that's based on insecurity of the fact that you can't handle the idea of females playing baseball, and you think men have all the rights and women should just shut up and put up.

NO ONE owns ANY sport. Everyone has the right to play whatever sport they choose, and you or no one else has the right to tell them otherwise. So if you want to come back and say things like *guys should be allowed to try out for softball teams JUST BECAUSE women want to play baseball and often have to take the matters into court in order to be able to do so*, you are the hypocrite.

It's time you face your insecurity. Step up and be a REAL man.

Jeez, lighten up. UNlike you Tiff knows how to have a conversation. SHe does't make assumptions about what I think and feel. She cautions against thinking a certain way. You however always come back with this agreessive accusing manner.

We're discussing something here. I didn't demand anything. I suggested this may happen. Go take your frustrations out on someone else.

I could go on with a longer post making assumptions about you and why you react the way you do, but I'll leave that act to you.

[Macker]

So if you want to come back and say things like *guys should be allowed to try out for softball teams JUST BECAUSE women want to play baseball and often have to take the matters into court in order to be able to do so*, you are the hypocrite.

I'm not saying guys should be able to try out for softball teams, but I believe that is what would result.


RightEGirl wrote:I've seen plenty of women who could play men's majors (softball).

I doubt it. If you're telling me you know women who can run down a liner in the gap just as well as men, I believe you. If you are telling me you know women with the same range as the best men in the infield, I believe you. If you are telling me you know women who can catch a throw at second base, pivot, and release a throw to first base just as quickly as the men, I believe you. If you are saying you know women who can make contact as consistently as men, I believe you.

However, if you are saying you have seen plenty of women who could play (I read that as 'can replace men currently playing without loss of overall playing ability) then I don't believe you.

How many of the top women can not only catch that ball in the gap, but fire off a throw to keep a runner from tagging up and advancing? How many of those women can range just as far to their right at shortstop and fire the ball to first in time to retire a runner? How many of those women up the middle can pivot and throw to first with the same zip on the ball to complete a double play? How many women who can make contact as well as the men can also hit with the same power?

If the answer is again plenty, let me ask you this -- why is it that when facing the top female pitchers, most women try to chop the ball? Why don't the male players do that against the best male pitchers, especially when they are throwing 20 MPH faster than the fastest women? It's because they can stand in there and hit the ball.

If opposing female pitchers are both throwing in the 70s, you'd have a pitcher's duel. If opposing male pitchers are both throwing in the 70s, you'd have a slugfest.

Please keep in mind that when I'm talking about mens major fastpitch, I'm not talking about recreation beer leagues. I'm talking about teams that play at least 100 games per year and go to regional or national tournaments every year, and likely have a yearly budget starting at $10,000. Also keep in mind that 95% of these players were not good enough for pro ball, and over half did not play college baseball.

If a women did play mens softball, some men would not like it. I honestly wouldn't care, but I realize it opens up a can of worms. Some guy would make a statement and get on a womens team. Then you end up with co-ed in which the men dominate, and the best teams would be the ones who could fill the female slots with the best women. That's how it works in the beer leagues.

[NotAboutEgo]

metfan,

Why do statements like "if girls get to play baseball, then boys get to play softball" whenever issues of discrimination against girls and women playing baseball are brought up? That's my point.

Also, no women currently are, and none ever have, gone around saying males shouldn't be able to play softball, and we haven't discriminated against them playing the game. I could care less if guys play softball or not. if they want to, then fine... play.

But, since men are the ones who've deemed *softball is for girls, and baseball is for guys*, then there is going to be a fight.

The issue is about girls and women being ILLEGALLY discriminated against... not about males playing softball. The discrimination stems from men, so if males want to have their shot at playing softball, let them... and they are the ones who created the whole mess in the first place.

Those ARE the facts. And guys not being able to handle the idea of girls and women playing baseball STILL are the problem.... MORE facts.

Perhaps, if men never had created this problem, BOTH ladies AND males would be playing both softball and baseball in school, and there would be no issues about it either way.

You are someone who is part of the problem. Your post wasn't about a discussion. It was about making a jealousy-based statement.

[metfan13]

metfan,

Why do statements like "if girls get to play baseball, then boys get to play softball" whenever issues of discrimination against girls and women playing baseball are brought up? That's my point.

Also, no women currently are, and none ever have, gone around saying males shouldn't be able to play softball, and we haven't discriminated against them playing the game. I could care less if guys play softball or not. if they want to, then fine... play.

But, since men are the ones who've deemed *softball is for girls, and baseball is for guys*, then there is going to be a fight.

The issue is about girls and women being ILLEGALLY discriminated against... not about males playing softball. The discrimination stems from men, so if males want to have their shot at playing softball, let them... and they are the ones who created the whole mess in the first place.

Those ARE the facts. And guys not being able to handle the idea of girls and women playing baseball STILL are the problem.... MORE facts.

Perhaps, if men never had created this problem, BOTH ladies AND males would be playing both softball and baseball in school, and there would be no issues about it either way.

You are someone who is part of the problem. Your post wasn't about a discussion. It was about making a jealousy-based statement.

There you go pointing fingers and blaming rather than discussing.

What I did in the earlier post was caution that a lawsuit like the one discussed could cause a unwanted result. YOU personally may not care, but then you have your own agenda. But what about the thousands of girls who are happy playing softball and don't really want guys trying out for the teams?

I don't see where I came in here threatening or pointing fingers or accusing any one of anything. You do however have a habit of changing discussion to arguement.

[NotAboutEgo]

Jeez, lighten up. UNlike you Tiff knows how to have a conversation. SHe does't make assumptions about what I think and feel. She cautions against thinking a certain way. You however always come back with this agreessive accusing manner.

We're discussing something here. I didn't demand anything. I suggested this may happen. Go take your frustrations out on someone else.

I could go on with a longer post making assumptions about you and why you react the way you do, but I'll leave that act to you.

I react the way I do, because I'm sick of people like you trying to tell me and others they aren't allowed to do something. I've read plenty of your posts in the past, and based on them, one can guess they way you think.

So, you're saying that by allowing girls to play baseball in school will create reverse discrimination? Isn't that kind of like stating that if all blacks get the right to vote and the right to do this and that, then whites will be discriminated against?

The basis for what you are saying is completely gender-biased. Men are the ones who pushed women into playing softball and have tried everything under their power to keep them from playing baseball. So, they are the ones who are at fault for schools offering softball only to girls and baseball only to boys. Men created this... and now they're going to sit and bitch about it when girls fight for the right to play baseball in school, because softball is only offered to girls in schools... when they are the ones who've deemed it a girls' sport?

[metfan13]

I react the way I do, because I'm sick of people like you trying to tell me and others they aren't allowed to do something. I've read plenty of your posts in the past, and based on them, one can guess they way you think.

So, you're saying that by allowing girls to play baseball in school will create reverse discrimination? Isn't that kind of like stating that if all blacks get the right to vote and the right to do this and that, then whites will be discriminated against?

The basis for what you are saying is completely gender-biased. Men are the ones who pushed women into playing softball and have tried everything under their power to keep them from playing baseball. So, they are the ones who are at fault for schools offering softball only to girls and baseball only to boys. Men created this... and now they're going to sit and bitch about it when girls fight for the right to play baseball in school, because softball is only offered to girls in schools... when they are the ones who've deemed it a girls' sport?

You're the one who has trouble with people here. You have an agenda and get angry with anyone who doesn't follow along. I ask questions and discuss issues. YOU however get angry and accuse people of holding opinions that they haven't even expressed.

Where did I say I wanted to keep girls from playing baseball? Where? And I said nothing about reverse discrimination. Here is what I said:

"I agree. She has the right to tryout.

However, if she wins and it's decided that they are not comparable sports, can boys tryout for softball?"

The boys trying out part was in reference to their being an official decision that they are not comparable sports. I raised the possibility that this arguement may be used. But again please read that first line again

"I agree. She has the right to tryout."

Where's the negativity?

And finally, I'm not and never have, told you or anyone else they're not allowed to do something. Matter of fact, feel free to keep ranting and raving and making false accusations. It's a free country.

[NotAboutEgo]

Girls fighting (legally in court) for the right to play baseball ISN'T going to cause an unwanted result. You should read up on this issue to become educated on it. The Women's Sports Foundation web site outlines this and describes why it's illegal to not allow girls to try out for baseball teams. Also, softball is NOT legally recognized as a fair substitute, and therefore cannot be the basis for why girls can't try out for baseball.

Again, the creation of girls-only softball teams in schools is a product of men discriminating against girls and women by telling them they can't play baseball and by not allowing them to play. It's the outcome of the discrimination that has happened since the beginning of organized baseball.

So, it's basically saying this...

"Girls can have softball as their bat and ball sport, while boys get to play baseball. It's a fair substitute, even though plenty of girls want to play baseball. Now, girls are fighting to break down the gender-barriers so that they can play the bat and ball game that they choose... so the girls' only softball teams that were created out of the discrimination against girls playing baseball are now being targeted by males who say that if girls get to play baseball, then boys get to play softball."

It's such an oxymoron, it isn't funny. Also, the argument that boys should be allowed to play softball if girls are allowed to play baseball doesn't hold up legally. The reason being is that GIRLS are the ones who've been discriminated against, and NOT boys.

I'm not saying that boys should be banned from playing softball. I don't believe that. What I'm saying is that the courts will not accept that as a legal defense against girls being allowed to try out for and play baseball.... again, because the girls are the ones being discriminated against.

Therefore, those who question girls being allowed to play baseball and those who oppose it won't be defended.

The Women's Sports Foundation web site has all kinds of articles about this explaining the details.

The solution for all of this is to allow ALL to play whatever sport they choose, even if it means creating separate teams for each gender... and even if it means that the clubs have to raise their own money to play, if schools can't afford to financially support those teams.

[NotAboutEgo]

You're the one who has trouble with people here. You have an agenda and get angry with anyone who doesn't follow along. I ask questions and discuss issues. YOU however get angry and accuse people of holding opinions that they haven't even expressed.

Where did I say I wanted to keep girls from playing baseball? Where? And I said nothing about reverse discrimination. Here is what I said:

"I agree. She has the right to tryout.

However, if she wins and it's decided that they are not comparable sports, can boys tryout for softball?"

The boys trying out part was in reference to their being an official decision that they are not comparable sports. I raised the possibility that this arguement may be used. But again please read that first line again

"I agree. She has the right to tryout."

Where's the negativity?

And finally, I'm not and never have, told you or anyone else they're not allowed to do something. Matter of fact, feel free to keep ranting and raving and making false accusations. It's a free country.

Go to the Women's Sports Foundation web site. There are articles that talk about this situation.

[metfan13]

Many (most?) school districts would not be able to afford to finance separate teams in all sports.

The district court in the case mentioned earlier in the thread did find that they were not comparable sports. Therefore she should be able to try out.

School districts have certain rules in place, as the one getting overturned here, because they can't afford separate teams for all sports. They are required to have an equal number of sports available to males and females. In doing this they need to make some determinations as to which sports to carry for each.

Simply having everything isn't reasonable financially.

Should they drop softball and just have separate boy and girl baseball teams?

[metfan13]

I did a search on the site for Logan Young and got no matches.

[NotAboutEgo]

I'm not saying guys should be able to try out for softball teams, but I believe that is what would result.


RightEGirl wrote:

I doubt it. If you're telling me you know women who can run down a liner in the gap just as well as men, I believe you. If you are telling me you know women with the same range as the best men in the infield, I believe you. If you are telling me you know women who can catch a throw at second base, pivot, and release a throw to first base just as quickly as the men, I believe you. If you are saying you know women who can make contact as consistently as men, I believe you.

However, if you are saying you have seen plenty of women who could play (I read that as 'can replace men currently playing without loss of overall playing ability) then I don't believe you.

How many of the top women can not only catch that ball in the gap, but fire off a throw to keep a runner from tagging up and advancing? How many of those women can range just as far to their right at shortstop and fire the ball to first in time to retire a runner? How many of those women up the middle can pivot and throw to first with the same zip on the ball to complete a double play? How many women who can make contact as well as the men can also hit with the same power?

If the answer is again plenty, let me ask you this -- why is it that when facing the top female pitchers, most women try to chop the ball? Why don't the male players do that against the best male pitchers, especially when they are throwing 20 MPH faster than the fastest women? It's because they can stand in there and hit the ball.

If opposing female pitchers are both throwing in the 70s, you'd have a pitcher's duel. If opposing male pitchers are both throwing in the 70s, you'd have a slugfest.

Please keep in mind that when I'm talking about mens major fastpitch, I'm not talking about recreation beer leagues. I'm talking about teams that play at least 100 games per year and go to regional or national tournaments every year, and likely have a yearly budget starting at $10,000. Also keep in mind that 95% of these players were not good enough for pro ball, and over half did not play college baseball.

If a women did play mens softball, some men would not like it. I honestly wouldn't care, but I realize it opens up a can of worms. Some guy would make a statement and get on a womens team. Then you end up with co-ed in which the men dominate, and the best teams would be the ones who could fill the female slots with the best women. That's how it works in the beer leagues.

The whole problem stems from men not wanting women playing on *their* teams. And this is what has happened throughout history, especially in relation to baseball. I'm not talking about who's better than who. If someone, regardless of their gender, is good enough (meaning, if they are as good all-around as anyone else on the team)... then let them play. If they aren't, then they don't make the team... plain and simple.

When we talk about the pro, collegiate, or high amateur levels, it's quite a bit different than talking about youth sports and high school sports. If there are women who, given then exact same developmental opportunities, are good enough to compete at the higher levels, then they should be allowed to. Does this mean that the majority or even half the players would be women? Maybe not, but that's not the argument. IF there are women who are good enough, then let them play.

Now, let's move on to youth sports. When kids are playing sports for the pure enjoyment of playing, which is what youth sports are *supposed* to be about, then there is NO REASON why girls should be told they can't play baseball or any other sport, just because they are girls. If some don't have the ability to play on the competitive teams, then they don't make it. But if they do, then they should. And as far as the recreational level goes, ANYONE should be able to play... period. And that is not happening in a lot of places, because of gender discrimination.

The article that Tiff posted is about another girl who is fighting in a court room for the right to play baseball... and she was told she can't, just because she's a girl.

That's the issue... "why should girls be allowed to play on *our* teams?"

[NotAboutEgo]

I did a search on the site for Logan Young and got no matches.

The articles are about the issue in general and were written a while ago.

[NotAboutEgo]

Many (most?) school districts would not be able to afford to finance separate teams in all sports.

The district court in the case mentioned earlier in the thread did find that they were not comparable sports. Therefore she should be able to try out.

School districts have certain rules in place, as the one getting overturned here, because they can't afford separate teams for all sports. They are required to have an equal number of sports available to males and females. In doing this they need to make some determinations as to which sports to carry for each.

Simply having everything isn't reasonable financially.

Should they drop softball and just have separate boy and girl baseball teams?

I agree with what you're saying (except for your 3rd paragraph); hence, my statement that perhaps the teams would have to raise the money to fund their sports. That would be the solution if people think that boys would dominate the girls softball teams if girls were openly allowed to try out for and play baseball. If the schools TRULY can't afford it, then the teams can raise the money.

Also, if there were that many boys who wanted to play softball in high school and girls wanting to play baseball, then perhaps schools should create teams for both sports for both genders. Maybe not all schools would have enough interest, but if there is enough interest, then it should happen.

Again, this whole problem stems back to men discriminating against girls and women... and thus, a solution must be found. Continuing to discriminate against girls who want to play baseball and using the "boys would dominate softball" twist are not the solutions.

Allowing all to play all is the solution, even if it means people having to work a little harder to make it happen.

[NotAboutEgo]

School districts have certain rules in place, as the one getting overturned here, because they can't afford separate teams for all sports. They are required to have an equal number of sports available to males and females. In doing this they need to make some determinations as to which sports to carry for each.

School districts not allowing girls to try out for and play baseball, just because they are girls, has NOTHING to do with anything financial. It's flat-out discrimination.

[metfan13]

School districts not allowing girls to try out for and play baseball, just because they are girls, has NOTHING to do with anything financial. It's flat-out discrimination.

Might be. And that's what the court cases will decide. And in many areas there would be difficulty in high school teams being required to raise the money for their teams. Easier said than done.

But plain and simple, anyone should be allowed to tryout for any team.

My girls' middle school has a girl playing on the football team.

That same girl is on my daughter's rec basketball team that I coach. That same girl also plays on a boys team in the same rec league. It's not an issue.

[NotAboutEgo]

Might be. And that's what the court cases will decide. And in many areas there would be difficulty in high school teams being required to raise the money for their teams. Easier said than done.

But plain and simple, anyone should be allowed to tryout for any team.

My girls' middle school has a girl playing on the football team.

That same girl is on my daughter's rec basketball team that I coach. That same girl also plays on a boys team in the same rec league. It's not an issue.

Yes, it may be difficult in some areas to raise the money, but it's possible in any area. My high school, which is in a very rural farming area, cut part of the sports budget for a while one year. All the sports teams had to go out and raise money, and the athletes had to pay money to play. It took some work, but it was done. It's not impossible. If sports teams from a rural school can raise the money, then I'd think that sports teams in most other areas that needed to raise money can do it as well.

Also, when I was a senior in H.S., I was able to raise $1,000 so that I could go on a school trip to Washington D.C. I raised the money in the same rural area by getting donations from people (most of whom I didn't know) and selling candy. If each player on a team could raise even a portion of what I raised, then a team would be able to fund itself.

It may be difficult in some areas, but sitting around saying that it's hard or impossible and not doing anything surely will get you no where.

One of my friend's daughters played football throughout high school, and she was very successful at it. She's a big girl, and she did as well as the guys.

While not every girl faces discrimination issues in sports, a lot (the majority) of them do when trying to break into something *new*, especially when it comes to baseball. There still is way too much discrimination going on, and the work won't be done until there's none and until everyone has an equal opportunity to play whatever sport(s) they choose to play.

[metfan13]

I think some inner city schools, ones having trouble getting the books they need, would have more trouble raising money than in a rural area. And expecting those kids to pay to play is unrealistic.

And yes, anyone should be able to play anything. But that also means you can't throw the reverse discrimination tag back at people who bring it up. Because it WILL be brought up. In most cases it will go away without many issues. The boys won't be signing up for softball or field hockey, or at least not many.

[NotAboutEgo]

I think some inner city schools, ones having trouble getting the books they need, would have more trouble raising money than in a rural area. And expecting those kids to pay to play is unrealistic.

And yes, anyone should be able to play anything. But that also means you can't throw the reverse discrimination tag back at people who bring it up. Because it WILL be brought up. In most cases it will go away without many issues. The boys won't be signing up for softball or field hockey, or at least not many.

I agree that inner city schools would have a harder time, but it doesn't mean that other schools shouldn't do it because of this... otherwise, progress will never be made in anything.

The reverse discrimination thing HAS to be brought up, because of the discrimination that has happened against girls and women. Guys aren't the ones who've been suffering from sports discrimination throughout time, so when girls and women have to fight through the B.S. in order to play a game they WANT to play, guys bringing up reverse discrimination isn't going to fly.

I agree that all should be able to play the sports they want to play, and if a lot of guys decide they want to play H.S. volleyball, field hockey, whatever... they should be able to... but a solution has to be reached as to how that would happen, just like with girls' baseball teams. Discrimination can't happen either way, so schools need to work harder at finding solutions. Afterall, it's about the kids and what sports THEY want to play, and isn't about adults and what THEY want to do.

[NotAboutEgo]

And historically, it's been the boys' sports teams that have benefitted WAY MORE than the girls' teams in relation to practice times, facilities and use of facilities, uniforms, equipment, etc. There is PLENTY of evidence that girls' sports teams in schools have been at a disadvantage in what they receive from their schools, for no reason other than they are girls.

This happened at my school when I went there. The boys got all the best benefits, while the girls got whatever was left over. So, historically, males have thought that they are more priveleged than ladies in all kinds of aspects.

[metfan13]

And historically, it's been the boys' sports teams that have benefitted WAY MORE than the girls' teams in relation to practice times, facilities and use of facilities, uniforms, equipment, etc. There is PLENTY of evidence that girls' sports teams in schools have been at a disadvantage in what they receive from their schools, for no reason other than they are girls.

This happened at my school when I went there. The boys got all the best benefits, while the girls got whatever was left over. So, historically, males have thought that they are more priveleged than ladies in all kinds of aspects.

I imagine it's been awhile since you were in high school? High school sports, including girls sports gets good coverage in the local newspaper here. Preseason previews, etc cover the girls as much as the guys. Girls basketball, softball and soccer get major coverage and many local girls get scholarships to big time schools.

[NotAboutEgo]

Yes, it's been a while. But, these things are STILL happening today... maybe not in your area, but they are in many areas. I'm not talking about newspaper coverage. That's separate from what the school does and is up to local papers and editors and reporters. My softball team also got coverage in the paper when I was in school... but that wasn't because of our school. Many schools still discriminate against girls' sports teams in many ways.

[NotAboutEgo]

Another web site with a lot of info is http://girlsplaybaseball.wordpress.com/

[dominik]

I think it would be possible to establish baseball for girls. Girls can play baseball no doubt.

The problem is that there wouldn't be enough ressources for both womens baseball and softball to be supported on the highst level. There could always be some am. leagues and school sports, but when it comes to high level college sports and pro sports you need a good foundation of TV coverage and spectators. Softball and womens baseball would be a competition for each others ressources.

This is no problem for amateur sports but definitely for expensive pro and college sports.

So the only chance for womans baseball to replace softball. I'm not sure if people are willing to "kill" softball in order to establish baseball.

As I said: both sports can exist next to each other, but not on highest level since baseball and softball are just to similar to not take away each others ressources(this is in the public eye of course).

[NotAboutEgo]

Thanks for your comments, Dominik.

However, I highly disagree with you that women's baseball can't exist along with softball on highly competitive levels. Baseball and softball are very different games. If one doesn't think so, then they should ask all MLB players to switch to playing softball to see what they'll say. Also, softball is NOT the "female version" baseball, contrary to general public belief.

Also, women's baseball is growing around the globe, and there are IBAF-sanctioned international women's world cups every 2 years and competitive international women's tournaments happening regularly in different countries.

I also disagree that the only chance for women's baseball to exist in college and professionally is by killing softball. That's basically saying, "Women need to choose between playing baseball and softball. They can only play one and can't play both." That's a very limited view, and in knowing the history behind how so many females started playing softball (because of sexism and gender discrimination), the view doesn't fly.

There are plenty of girls and women around the globe who are interested in playing baseball and who do play baseball... and there will be a pro league someday, and that will lead to girls' and women's high school and collegiate teams (along with girls' youth leagues leading to those).

Women's baseball and women's softball are separate from each other — they exist in their own worlds. There's no reason why the 2 can't exist together, even on the highest competitive levels. Already, we have both a women's national softball team and a women's national baseball team in the U.S.

[dominik]

Your basically right. Those are different sports.

We baseball fans see that and respect that. But the problem is that a pro sport is paid by the "fat american average Joe with a beer on his couch":). He decides what is broadcasted, not the few experts.

I see a big chance that those guys with limited insight and sometimes ignorant worldviews won't be able to accept the difference. And that's the challenge you need to convince the average Joe why he is looking to sports where you hit a ball. An expert could easily see that, but could a "beer-TV watcher" also do this?

This is the big question. You could ask with the same right, why there are no mens fastpitch pro leagues, even if there are mens fast pitch leagues. It's just because, the old thinking softball is fr girls, baseball is for boys is to engrained(is this a word-I'm no native speaker) in the public mind.

It's a tradition thing I think.
I see no reason why womans baseball shouldn't continue to become more popular, even on a higher level, but I remain sceptical regarding it to become a pro sport.

[NotAboutEgo]

Whether one wants to call it tradition or not, it happened by females being forced out of baseball... and we are fighting our way back to make baseball stick for females once and for all. We're fed up with putting up with the limited thinking, insecure people who can't handle something as simple and basic as females playing baseball.

I've been involved with women's baseball since 1998, and in all of my experiences, most people are open to the idea of females playing baseball. Yes, there still are those out there who can't grasp the concept and who are too inhibited by their insecurity to be comfortable with the idea... but we're not going to let them stop us from reaching our goals.

"Traditions" can and do change. All it takes is someone starting the change. If the first people to start women's baseball in the modern women's baseball era (started in the late 1980's) would have gone with the notion that you can't break tradition, gender barriers, stereotypes, and discrimination, then there would be no women's baseball today. If the women who fought for women's rights to vote in the U.S. wouldn't have fought in the way they did, we still might not be able to vote today. Most of us involved with women's baseball are not ones to sit around and think that something can't happen.

I know what you are saying by consumers needing to buy into the idea. You are right, but most humans are followers (sheeples <combination of people and sheep>, as my co-worker calls them), and not leaders. Basically, if something is put in front of peoples' faces, they will eventually buy into it. This is true of most any product. Markets are created in most cases and don't exist before the product does (yes, some products/inventions come from people wanting them... but for the most part, mass markets have to be created).

MLB wasn't nearly as popular as it is today back before TV was invented, and now look at how popular it is. Add to it the marketing of endorsements and all the hype that is generated by the media and by MLB and teams, and you have a mass market.

I saw a special on HBO about how sports weren't as popular on TV until ESPN started broadcasting them 24-7... and now, they are a lot more in demand.

There's a reason companies do market research studies and surveys and create marketing campaigns.

[NotAboutEgo]

The LL World Series is popular, because it's hyped up and is on TV every year. If it wasn't on TV, I bet not many would know about it. The same is true of other sports. Here in the U.S., baseball, ice hockey, football, and basketball dominate all other sports on TV. I'd love to see lacrosse, more soccer, rugby, whatever (whether it's women's or men's) on TV, but it gets very limited viewing here. That's an example of creating a market for your sport.

I just caught a documentary on HBO this past weekend on jump roping competitions that school-age kids are competing in all over the world. These kids are terrific athletes with incredible talent and ability and do incredibly amazing things while jump roping. It's hard to comprehend how they can do what they do. I could see something like this getting very popular through TV exposure, but if it doesn't get exposure, not many will know about it.

If marketed right, women's baseball could be very popular on TV once a pro league is developed.

[dominik]

I wish you guys good luck.

I agree it could be promoted. People watch every **** that is broadcasted. Why shouldn't they watch a cool sport like womens baseball.

TV stations must just give it a chance...

[NotAboutEgo]

I agree. People watch fishing and poker tournaments on TV... EXCITING!!! :laugh :crazy

There's a lot of talent in women's baseball, and once it can be developed more on all levels, there will be a market for it. Who knows what will happen with softball when that does happen, but I think they both could exist together on higher levels.

[metfan13]

I agree. People watch fishing and poker tournaments on TV... EXCITING!!! :laugh :crazy

There's a lot of talent in women's baseball, and once it can be developed more on all levels, there will be a market for it. Who knows what will happen with softball when that does happen, but I think they both could exist together on higher levels.

Do you think it could get to the level of WNBA?

[NotAboutEgo]

Do you think it could get to the level of WNBA?

Definitely. Of course, it will take the right marketing and enough marketing to do so. Although women's sports are on cable sports channels now (ESPN, FoxSports, etc.), there's a lot more marketing that could be done. Also, if women got more product endorsements, it would help tremendously.

I think this will happen when society becomes more used to the idea of females playing baseball. And that will happen the more we get it out there and develop it.

[bhss89]

Good luck, Logan!

Tiff


Indiana girl sues for chance to play baseball
Updated: November 24, 2008, 7:27 PM EST

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - Logan Young has been playing baseball with the boys for nine years, and she and her parents don't think that should change now that she's in high school.

The 14-year-old and her family have filed a federal lawsuit over an Indiana High School Athletic Association rule that prohibits the Bloomington South freshman from trying out for the high school baseball team because she is female.

"In this day and age, a girl should have the opportunity to participate on an equal footing with the boys in high school sports and the IHSAA precludes that," Tae Sture, one of the family's attorney's, said Monday.

"Our feeling is, quite frankly, there's no rational reason for it," he said.

An IHSAA rule prohibits girls from trying out for baseball if their school has a softball team on the basis that the sports are comparable. But the lawsuit filed Friday in U.S. District Court in Indianapolis argues that baseball and softball aren't the same sport, so girls should be able to try out for baseball.

The suit seeks to have the IHSAA rule thrown out based on the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and Title IX, the federal law that mandates equal educational opportunities for boys and girls.

The suit, filed by Logan and her parents, Marie-Elisabeth and Russell Young of Bloomington, names the IHSAA and the Monroe County Community school district as defendants.

Logan has played third base and outfield in coed community baseball leagues since age 5. She also plays volleyball and basketball.


Her family contacted the IHSAA in May to see whether Logan could participate in baseball during the 2008-09 season. Commissioner Blake Ress said she couldn't because Bloomington South has a softball team, the lawsuit said.

A phone message left Monday seeking comment from Ress wasn't immediately returned.

The high school, which has a female kicker on its football team, supports Logan's desire to play and is seeking a waiver so she can try out for baseball, said Bloomington South athletic director J.R. Holmes.

But the lawsuit argues that a waiver — which requires showing extreme hardship — shouldn't be necessary.

"Softball and baseball are not the same sport, so she has the right to try out," said Sharon F. McKee, the lead attorney in the case. Under current rules, a boy wanting to play softball also would have to seek a waiver, she said.

Precedent may be on Logan's side, according to McKee. The West Virginia Supreme Court ruled in a similar case in 1989 that baseball and softball are not substantially equal sports, she said, and 24 state athletic associations already allow girls to choose between softball and baseball.

If Miss Young is good enough, then she'll make the Bloomington South team. If not, then the coaching staff will cut her from the group. I do hope that Miss Young, along with her parents, are prepared to be realistic and honest about the tryout process. I know the coaching staff at that HS personally, and they've no problem with Miss Young trying out for the team.

[Hysteria]

There is no equal footing when you put Girls vs Boys after puberty.

[TG Coach]

Do you think it could get to the level of WNBA?

The WNBA is not sucessful. It would fold tomorrow if the NBA pulled it's subsidy. What the WNBA provides is marketing for the NBA.

Women's pro softball has not succeeded. Women's pro soccer has not succeeded. Soccer is back for another try this year. There just isn't interest in women's pro team sports.

Before anyone says I'm prejudied against females playing sports, my daughter lettered in four high school sports and played college softball.

[TG Coach]

I think this will happen when society becomes more used to the idea of females playing baseball. And that will happen the more we get it out there and develop it.

People accept women playing softball. Yet the NFP struggles. It's re-org'ed three times. Pro women's baseball would be a very small niche market. Most people would prefer to see the best play. That would be MLB and NCAA baseball before a women's pro league.

The world championship Team USA women's soccer team from a few years ago had trouble competing against U19 boys state champions during their pre world championship schedule. I figure baseball would be much the same. Why would someone pay to see female pros that aren't better than the best high school players?

[TG Coach]

The LL World Series is popular, because it's hyped up and is on TV every year. If it wasn't on TV, I bet not many would know about it.

Not true. Most dads grew up playing LL. While there are more youth baseball choices now, a majority of kids play LL baseball. It used to be the only game televised was the championship. There was a demand for more. The television schedule kept expanding and expanding until now all the games are on.