Bad Ideas About Hitting

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm working to expand my Rotational Hitting primer and have started asking people what their philosophy of hitting is and why they hold that view.

I had two experiences recently that reflect on why the state of the art of hitting instruction is so bad.

INCIDENT ONE
Last Thursday I was at my 7YO son's baseball practice and we were working on hitting. I was focusing on solid posture and a minimal to no-stride swing and the guys were hitting pretty well. Some of the guys were stepping in the bucket, so the head coach started telling them to step at the pitcher. This made me a little nervous, but I bit my tongue since some stride can be OK. However, some kids started lunging at the ball and the head coach told them "You need to keep your back foot on the ground so you can push off it as you swing." At this my insides melted (I threw up in my mouth a little bit), but I managed top keep my composure. I've got to figure out the right time to talk to this guy about what real hitters do.

INCIDENT TWO
Last night, my 12YO son's team had practice. On the front page of the sports section yesterday (I live in St. Louis) they printed a picture pretty much identical to the one below, but Pujols' toe was visibly up in the air an inch and a half.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_017.jpg

I told the boys that they should cut out this picture, put it up on their walls, and study it every night before they go to sleep. When I talked to most of the coaches on the team, they were receptive to what I explained. However, when I showed the picture to the head coach his only comment was "That is a perfect swing. But none of these kids can swing like that." I didn't say anything, but I was dying on the inside. This coach's main advice to the guys is hands to the ball. I've got to figure out how to take him out of the picture when it comes to hitting.

[tom.guerry]

Lots of bad idea/cues:

Thinking that limiting range of motion will shorten and quicken swing. Shorten, maybe, quicken ? just the opposite.

Thinking swing is center out as opposed to two ends stretching the middle between them.

Trying to eliminate stride.

Trying to eliminate hitch.

Trying to turn back hip into front.

Trying to keep front foot closed.

Trying to maintain hinge angle.

Trying to make shoulder turn start bat moving.

Trying to roll wrists at contact.

Trying to pull ball.

Trying to minimize/eliminate separation.

etc etc.

[Jake Patterson]

What constantly amazes me with youth baseball is how little so many know - and feel they do.

[Three A's baseball]

I think a big issue is there is a hard enough time finding volunteers who want to coach your children let alone qualified hitting instructors who want to coach your children.

Maybe we should be less critical of those volunteering their time to help our kids and find a way to open the door of communication and help educate our volunteers.

If it is done in a non threating way I am sure most of them will be receptive to your help.

Maybe direct them to this site. It has helped me greatly.

[Thor]

Bravo Three A's Baseball for an insightful comment. I couldn't agree more. When it comes to youth baseball, I'll take a volunteer over one that sits in the stands any day.

[Jake Patterson]

I think a big issue is there is a hard enough time finding volunteers who want to coach your children let alone qualified hitting instructors who want to coach your children.

Maybe we should be less critical of those volunteering their time to help our kids and find a way to open the door of communication and help educate our volunteers.

If it is done in a non threating way I am sure most of them will be receptive to your help.

Maybe direct them to this site. It has helped me greatly.

The larger issue is - as the proliferation of baseball continues we continue to exhaust the pool of qualified coaches and now rely on those who have no experience or training in the game of baseball or in the art of coaching.

More distressing is organizations like Little League are doing little to help and refer new coaches to their "sanctioned" expensive and inconvenient programs that provide inadequate training leaving most to fend for themselves.

I have a BS in Youth Counseling and Business and a M.Ed. specializing in adult education and on-line education. I approached LL some time ago offering to organize a free on-line program for new coaches that could at least start to address this problem and could not garner a shread of interest. The problem is youth baseball is big money... very discouraging...

[Mark H]

What constantly amazes me with youth baseball is how little so many know - and feel they do.

Not just youth ball. I don't blame a volunteer for not knowing. I do have a problem with theorists who don't teach but "know" what and how everyone should learn and I do have a problem with paid instructors and coaches teaching garbage similar to what this head coach is teaching.

[MarkL]

TomG-

Lots of bad idea/cues:

Thinking that limiting range of motion will shorten and quicken swing. Shorten, maybe, quicken ? just the opposite.

Thinking swing is center out as opposed to two ends stretching the middle between them.

Trying to eliminate stride.

Trying to eliminate hitch.

Trying to turn back hip into front.

Trying to keep front foot closed.

Trying to maintain hinge angle.

Trying to make shoulder turn start bat moving.

Trying to roll wrists at contact.

Trying to pull ball.

Trying to minimize/eliminate separation.

etc etc.
Reply With Quote

I like (agree w/) the list---but could you explain how "Trying to maintain hinge angle." is bad??

how do you teach cocked wrists????

[swingbuster]

More distressing is organizations like Little League are doing little to help and refer new coaches to their "sanctioned" expensive and inconvenient programs that provide inadequate training leaving most to fend for themselves.

True...they send in the experts to teach the coaches and the experts say it all wrong too.

I hardly ever see a kid that can swing a bat until we play some of the best programs in the State.


THey have hitting cages on campus, year round practice opportunity, kids that play one sport only , ADs that are the baseball coaches and a history of putting 4-7 a year in colleges.

[Drill]

This coach's main advice to the guys is hands to the ball. I've got to figure out how to take him out of the picture when it comes to hitting.

Ask the coach what the drill is to eliminate casting of the bat after he teaches this concept. Why not come up with a compromise cue.

Good luck with the coach and parents if you stick your finger in the mix. But I know you can figure out the proper compromise with a cue to tell the coach.

Even after you get them to watch the drill(s) than there is a matter of retention of the drill and conceptually understanding it at this age (coach included). Oh and you know more than I do that there is more than one aspect to the swing.


Like i said good luck


When all else fails pray. That is what i do after watching years of coaches ball and daddy ball. My son knows he has to be good to beat the coaches kid and political little league board daddies out to make all-stars.

love always,

drill

[tom.guerry]

The hinge angle- lead forearm/wrist/bat angle (not BM hinge angle which is ?lead arm/elbow forearm ?) is "maintained" as a result of other upstream mechanics.

It is not "maintained" by trying to keep the angle stable with the wrist. The wrist has other things to be doing at this time so that the torquing of the handle can be optimally executed.

If you had to pick either hold angle with wrist or Let angle unhinge as quickly as possible, it is much more the latter as part of what Richard has called the "immediate launch and spend". The SEQUENCE of when this quick unhinging takes place is important.

You COULD mess up the swing by purposely swinging the bathead out by "premature" unhinging/premature ADduction of the wrists (this prevents stretching/segmentally loading torso) , but I prefer the school of thought that focusses on what should be done, not what should not be done. It's easier to teach/learn positively in general based on what the motion sequence should be, not what you should avoid.

For example, Epstein starts his teaching progression to add the critical rubber band winding/drop and tilt phases to the swing by controlling the upper body by bat on deltoid while lower/upper body synch get in the envelope. This avoids having to focus on hinge issue.

So hinge angle should be maintained and you can feel it being maintained, but it also is maintained while there is an immediate launch and spend, not maintained by holding it in a way that interferes with the necessary wrist action that torques the handle.

[Three A's baseball]

I have a very young son. 6 Years Old in Kindergarten. Played Tball last year. Is playing up with the 1st and 2nd grade rec division this year and the 7U travel team.

He has the best time, I coach all of his teams and we have a blast.

He is good for his age, fields well, hits well and has a real nice arm. Makes the throws from short and 3rd and is real accurate.

He loves to play basketball and flag football and baseball.

I spend alot of time with him and I try to learn more about coaching through dvd's and books, this website and watching other coaches at clincs or camps.

I am by no means an expert but I try hard and volunteer almost all of my spare time to my town as a coach. I would hate to hear some of the things you guys are saying.

I am sure many of your son's coaches are trying their hardest. Cut them some slack.

[TG Coach]

I think a big issue is there is a hard enough time finding volunteers who want to coach your children let alone qualified hitting instructors who want to coach your children.

All it takes is pitching to your kid until he figures it out. Kids aren't stupid. Throw them 200 pitches. They know when they're hitting well and when they're not. The can make adjustments. Sometimes I get the feeling parents think kids are born brain dead in terms of hitting. We didn't have instructors. We swung the bat and hit the ball until we got it right.

I played from LL through college. I never had a paid lesson. Where would I have gone? My father never commented on my swing. I adjusted until I had it right by swinging the bat .... repeatedly. The only instruction I ever had was my dad setting up my feet and hands with a whiffle bat when I was little.

I give my son very little instruction. I don't want him thinking too much. I want him to see the ball, pick out his pitch and hit it. I do pitch him a lot of BP at medium speeds. BP is about the swing, not how fast of a pitch can be hit.

[Jake Patterson]

Not just youth ball. I don't blame a volunteer for not knowing. I do have a problem with theorists who don't teach but "know" what and how everyone should learn and I do have a problem with paid instructors and coaches teaching garbage similar to what this head coach is teaching.


How would you fix the problem?

[Jake Patterson]

3-A's

I spend alot of time with him and I try to learn more about coaching through dvd's and books, this website and watching other coaches at clincs or camps. It sounds like you are doing the right things.

I am by no means an expert but I try hard and volunteer almost all of my spare time to my town as a coach. I would hate to hear some of the things you guys are saying.

I am sure many of your son's coaches are trying their hardest. Cut them some slack.
I agree, but we need to remember however that because we are volunteers it does not relinquish our responsibilities to do the job right. I advocate free convenient training for volunteer coaches. The problem is the advocacy should be coming from the sponsoring organizations.

[callyjr]

I'm working to expand my Rotational Hitting primer and have started asking people what their philosophy of hitting is and why they hold that view.

I had two experiences recently that reflect on why the state of the art of hitting instruction is so bad.

INCIDENT ONE
Last Thursday I was at my 7YO son's baseball practice and we were working on hitting. I was focusing on solid posture and a minimal to no-stride swing and the guys were hitting pretty well. Some of the guys were stepping in the bucket, so the head coach started telling them to step at the pitcher. This made me a little nervous, but I bit my tongue since some stride can be OK. However, some kids started lunging at the ball and the head coach told them "You need to keep your back foot on the ground so you can push off it as you swing." At this my insides melted (I threw up in my mouth a little bit), but I managed top keep my composure. I've got to figure out the right time to talk to this guy about what real hitters do.

INCIDENT TWO
Last night, my 12YO son's team had practice. On the front page of the sports section yesterday (I live in St. Louis) they printed a picture pretty much identical to the one below, but Pujols' toe was visibly up in the air an inch and a half.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_017.jpg

I told the boys that they should cut out this picture, put it up on their walls, and study it every night before they go to sleep. When I talked to most of the coaches on the team, they were receptive to what I explained. However, when I showed the picture to the head coach his only comment was "That is a perfect swing. But none of these kids can swing like that." I didn't say anything, but I was dying on the inside. This coach's main advice to the guys is hands to the ball. I've got to figure out how to take him out of the picture when it comes to hitting.

does the coach have email, this is my 6yr old

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kaleb2.11.07.mov.GIF

[callyjr]

here is another with him using a 29 26 bat. This took about a month 10 minutes a night. His idea after I showed him the difference between what he did and what the major league players do. I actually think he hit the ball harder the old lunging way, but he still does great this way also. I think the difference is that we have not been doing any real hitting due to weather and he is just out of practice.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kalebs%20swing%20Nov%202006.mov

Your 7 yr old can do it no problem, you can let your boys learn and if he is hitting well most coaches are gonna leave him alone.

[Jake Patterson]

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kalebs%20swing%20Nov%202006.mov


Couldn't open

Nice swing BTW

[Williamsburg2599]

Couldn't open

Nice swing BTW

Worked for me, try this:http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kalebs%20swing%20Nov%202006.mov


Wow. That's the best swing I've ever seen from a kid that small. :nod:

[Jake Patterson]

Nice swing!

Here's a pic of a member's son. I don't have his film, but I remember it being very impressive.

22761

[callyjr]

Worked for me, try this:http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kalebs%20swing%20Nov%202006.mov


Wow. That's the best swing I've ever seen from a kid that small. :nod:


thanks, I'll let him know you approve.

[Baseball gLove]

Worked for me, try this:http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kalebs%20swing%20Nov%202006.mov


Wow. That's the best swing I've ever seen from a kid that small. :nod:


They've cloned Pujols!

[mike28nc]

LL coaches has it hard IMO. I have helped coach few teams here in NC. Yes my son was on it but it was very hard to say the least. Most of the time parents dropped the kid off and picked him up after practice. Never spent any time working with the kid at the house. You get 1 hr or maybe 1.5 hrs of practice. Not enough time to work on what needs to be done. In the past I have been the hitting coach. Starting at 6 I would always just bring a Tee. Work on hitting the center of the ball and going from there. Maybe soft toss. At 6 it is coach pitch. We would take BP but it was hit or miss. We played one more LL season 8u fall. That is when I had my fill of parents and LL baseball.

At 8 my son was on his 2nd year of travel ball. He wanted to play LL with his friends so we did that also. Parents would complain about everything from line up to fielding positions. You have to play everyone but nothing would suit them. Coaches have it hard. If you married, Just think of have 12 wifes on your case 10 - 12 times a season.

We left the LL and do nothing but travel ball. I am still hitting coach but have heard it all from parents about swings. Swing dwn to put backspin on the ball, keep weight back, push off back side, hands to the ball, throw the hands, etc. I once had the head coach talk to me about my son's swing. He was hitting over .550 playing up a age level. He said my son's swing was all wrong and needed to swing dwn. I lent him my copy of Mankin and he never watched it. Slowly I would see him use terms that Mankin uses in his drills/teachings. But he didn't know how to teach or what they really stood for.

There are some great coaches out there. Players will run thru a wall for. They listen and work/teach the kids the game of life and baseball. Teaching hitting to me is never over. I have much to learn and that is main reason I am on so many read boards. Each person that has DVD has some good info in it. Some are more upper body and some lower body. Some have drills that are just outstanding. Some drills, well enough said.


Just remember that practice is not just at the practice field. You have to spend time at the home. coaches can only do so much in 1-1.5 practice time once a week.

Mike

[Drill]

LL coaches has it hard IMO. I have helped coach few teams here in NC. Yes my son was on it but it was very hard to say the least. Most of the time parents dropped the kid off and picked him up after practice. Never spent any time working with the kid at the house. You get 1 hr or maybe 1.5 hrs of practice. Not enough time to work on what needs to be done. In the past I have been the hitting coach. Starting at 6 I would always just bring a Tee. Work on hitting the center of the ball and going from there. Maybe soft toss. At 6 it is coach pitch. We would take BP but it was hit or miss. We played one more LL season 8u fall. That is when I had my fill of parents and LL baseball.

At 8 my son was on his 2nd year of travel ball. He wanted to play LL with his friends so we did that also. Parents would complain about everything from line up to fielding positions. You have to play everyone but nothing would suit them. Coaches have it hard. If you married, Just think of have 12 wifes on your case 10 - 12 times a season.

We left the LL and do nothing but travel ball. I am still hitting coach but have heard it all from parents about swings. Swing dwn to put backspin on the ball, keep weight back, push off back side, hands to the ball, throw the hands, etc. I once had the head coach talk to me about my son's swing. He was hitting over .550 playing up a age level. He said my son's swing was all wrong and needed to swing dwn. I lent him my copy of Mankin and he never watched it. Slowly I would see him use terms that Mankin uses in his drills/teachings. But he didn't know how to teach or what they really stood for.

There are some great coaches out there. Players will run thru a wall for. They listen and work/teach the kids the game of life and baseball. Teaching hitting to me is never over. I have much to learn and that is main reason I am on so many read boards. Each person that has DVD has some good info in it. Some are more upper body and some lower body. Some have drills that are just outstanding. Some drills, well enough said.


Just remember that practice is not just at the practice field. You have to spend time at the home. coaches can only do so much in 1-1.5 practice time once a week.

Mike

You took the words out of my mouth. Two separate post with the same underlying meaning

But why is this?

Ask the coach what the drill is to eliminate casting of the bat after he teaches this concept. Why not come up with a compromise cue.

Good luck with the coach and parents if you stick your finger in the mix. But I know you can figure out the proper compromise with a cue to tell the coach.

Even after you get them to watch the drill(s) than there is a matter of retention of the drill and conceptually understanding it at this age (coach included). Oh and you know more than I do that there is more than one aspect to the swing.


Like i said good luck


When all else fails pray. That is what i do after watching years of coaches ball and daddy ball. My son knows he has to be good to beat the coaches kid and political little league board daddies out to make all-stars.

love always,

drill

[Mark H]

How would you fix the problem?

Personally? By steering as many people as possible toward the best information I know of.

In the long run, I suppose there needs to be an accepted canon of knowledge similar to what I understand golf has. But that doesn't appear to be imminent.

[Jake Patterson]

Personally? By steering as many people as possible toward the best information I know of.

In the long run, I suppose there needs to be an accepted canon of knowledge similar to what I understand golf has. But that doesn't appear to be imminent.

Mark, the solution to this is not as difficult as it seems. There are courses and programs already established all over the country for State Coaching certification programs that could serve as a start. The problem with youth ball is no organization- LL, AAU, USSSA etc. wants to take the leap and further proliferation of the game will only uncover less and less coaching talent.

[LClifton]

I'll let him know you approve.

That goes for me too. Very nice Cally and 'young Cally'...:happy:

[callyjr]

They've cloned Pujols!


cute, by Epstein gets all the credit for this swing and maybe a few guys on a few boards along the way, but mostly Epstein!!

[Chris O'Leary]

does the coach have email, this is my 6yr old

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Kaleb2.11.07.mov.GIF

Very nice...

[Chris O'Leary]

All it takes is pitching to your kid until he figures it out. Kids aren't stupid. Throw them 200 pitches. They know when they're hitting well and when they're not. The can make adjustments. Sometimes I get the feeling parents think kids are born brain dead in terms of hitting. We didn't have instructors. We swung the bat and hit the ball until we got it right.

As with pitchers (many of my favorite prospects this year are recent converts to P), in many cases I think that hitters are over-taught. In most cases, kids will discover a reasonably good swing.

It's well-intentioned and/or ill-informed coaches and instructors who tend to screw them up.

When in doubt, leave them alone.

[Mark H]

cute, by Epstein gets all the credit for this swing and maybe a few guys on a few boards along the way, but mostly Epstein!!

How does Epstein teach getting off the backside like that because I can't find it in his tape or book and I don't see a weight shift from the inside of the front thigh to the back thigh in THIS swing? Good swing at that age. Bright future.

[Mark H]

Mark, the solution to this is not as difficult as it seems. There are courses and programs already established all over the country for State Coaching certification programs that could serve as a start. The problem with youth ball is no organization- LL, AAU, USSSA etc. wants to take the leap and further proliferation of the game will only uncover less and less coaching talent.

Organizations and certifications do not equal agreement. Some of the stuff I've seen in years past in the official LL materials was poor as I recall.

[DunninLA]

Nice thread.

When my '95 started to play for the first time at age 9, summer rec baseball, I assumed she would get good coaching on hitting, fielding, catching and throwing. I was wrong! The three volunteer coaches themselves had no clue how to do any of those properly.

Four months later, the regular BB season started, and I felt an obligation to give some guidance. I bought some DVD (one had Reggie Smith doing a hitting demonstration) and we watched them together. Not that much help really.

Then I found the eteamz sites for BB and Fastpitch. Then I found this site. In posts on these sites, I got recos for Epstein and Englishbey to learn the mechanics of hitting. That was March 2006. Englishbey DVDs arrived April. Private lesson May. Then the Kobata DVDs on fielding/throwing/footwork. Then in August, the Dave Weaver DVD on Catching.

It is precisely sites like this that can steer a new or old/clueless baseball chaperone to the resources he/she needs to become a teacher of basic fundamental BB/FP skills.

I am now a Dad/coach. If I weren't, there's no way either my '95 or now my '93 would have any clue about the proper mechanics involved in the game.

So my advice is: steer all coaches to this site, and the eteamz site. Those who have ears to hear will.

[callyjr]

well said!!

[DunninLA]

Chris O'Leary:

I can't agree with you there regarding letting a kid mostly discover a swing on their own. Your advice is probably right for gifted athletes. But we're talking here about kids 7-12 who ought to be given the benefit of a good starting point in the sequence of movements that make a coordinated, successful swing, throw, catch, etc.

I've had the chance now to carefully observe over 75 kids (about half boys, half girls) 9-13 over the past 14 months. Maybe one kid out of five has an OK swing. One in three can hit it on a fly over the infield. Maybe one kid out of three can throw from 3rd to 1st and not miss most of the time. And they've on average been playing 3-4 years.

Though a couple of injuries on our 12U Pony team, a waitlist kid joined the team last Wed. We are half way through the season. Really good, strong, coordinated athlete, but hasn't played baseball EVER. Somehow he knew how to throw the ball more or less correctly. That surprised me. So I didn't mess with that.

I spend an hour with him during Sunday am scheduled practice, only on the tee. Step 1. Get your distance. Step 2: set your back foot (very wide stance, no stride). Step 3, stick your butt out and tilt. Step 4, set your front arm. Step 5, set your back arm. Step 6, pull your hands back. Step 7, lift front heel/hip cock, Step 8, rotate like hell. We went over it proably 50 times. He stepped out of the box, came back in, and counted out each step every time. He did a ton of things wrong and got them immediately corrected as we went along. I did some simulated slo-mo pitching so he could see when to hip cock and then drop front heel into forward momentum and rotation. He got it completely.

By the end of our hour, he was smashing the ball off the tee. Another volunteer coach took the cage that entire hour, but I didn't let him go in.

Saw him again for scheduled cage 6:00 Monday. Again while another coach took the kids into the cage, I spent 15 minutes rehearsing the hitting mechanics off the tee, and then 30 minutes on fielding grounders and flies. This guy soaked it up like a sponge. He got almost everything right with just a few tries.

Some other parents from other teams were casually passing by watching this kid do everything fundamentally correctly. They had never seen anybody try work with a kid's movements in a compressed timeframe like we were doing.

I'm trying to give this kid the basic building blocks of good baseball skills. I don't think pointing him at the diamond and saying -- "Hey kid, pick up a bat, and see what you need to do to hit the ball hard", is doing him a favor.

P.S. I'm printing out the Pujols swing from your link to give to this new kid ... it's pretty cool.

[Jake Patterson]

Organizations and certifications do not equal agreement. Some of the stuff I've seen in years past in the official LL materials was poor as I recall.

I am not recommending the LL stuff. I think it's weak. I am talking about the state interscholastic organizations who already run certification programs.

[Mark H]

If golf did it I suppose baseball can too one of these days.

[opie]

Lots of bad idea/cues:

Thinking that limiting range of motion will shorten and quicken swing. Shorten, maybe, quicken ? just the opposite.

Thinking swing is center out as opposed to two ends stretching the middle between them.

Trying to eliminate stride.

Trying to eliminate hitch.

Trying to turn back hip into front.

Trying to keep front foot closed.

Trying to maintain hinge angle.

Trying to make shoulder turn start bat moving.

Trying to roll wrists at contact.

Trying to pull ball.

Trying to minimize/eliminate separation.

etc etc.

some of them are waaay off but for some of them your list is a bad idea simply because of the word "trying" take for example "trying to turn the back hip into the front" it is a bad idea because if one is "trying" to specifically do that they are most likely going to fail it actually happens because other things are done correctly cause and effect