Running up the score?

[bbb3601]

We finally got to play our first game of the year. Thanks to everyone's help on bbf my son went a true 4-4 with 6 RBI's. We won the game 18-4, but in the 4th we were up only 11-4. We have alot of team speed and steal a ton of bases. The opposing coach got very mad and starting ranting that our coach was running up the score and teaching our kids poor sportsmanship. My question is I guess to all of you coach's is this true. Is there a unspoken rule about when you should or should not run? We used alot of pitchers and our kids never acted out of line. Any opinion's?

[dw8man]

Does your league have a run rule or max runs per inning? My thoughts are that if there is a run rule, like 15 after 4 or 10 after 5, you go for it and end the game. Espically if the other team is scoring on you. If there is no game ending run rule but a limit per inning, I usually quit stealing and being agressive on the bases once we are up by more the one innings worth. For example; if 7 runs per inning are allowed, once we hit an 8 run lead late in a a game, I take one base at a time and quit stealing.

This is for rec league only. In travel ball, we only encounter the game limit and we end it as soon as we can (if possible).

[Sparksdale]

Personally, I've been on both sides of the field when this happens.
In Rec ball I think you can run a score up on kids, especially (let me stress here ESPECIALLY) if you are doing it steeling bases. Getting hits and scoring is one thing but to steel bases on a team that you clearly are better than is in my opinon uncalled for.

My guess is the other coach was getting mad because you were steeling bases when you were so far ahead in the game. I bet if you had scored the runs with base hit he wouldn't have said anything.

Of course travel ball is another story...they have a power ranking so most teams try to score all they can.

Sparks

[virg]

In practice it's the reserves' job to prepare the starters for a game. In the game it's the starters' job to go for the throat, and get their buddies on the bench in the game. No way would I require reserves give less than their best once in the game. If their best is still way too much for the competition...

[Chris O'Leary]

We finally got to play our first game of the year. Thanks to everyone's help on bbf my son went a true 4-4 with 6 RBI's. We won the game 18-4, but in the 4th we were up only 11-4. We have alot of team speed and steal a ton of bases. The opposing coach got very mad and starting ranting that our coach was running up the score and teaching our kids poor sportsmanship. My question is I guess to all of you coach's is this true. Is there a unspoken rule about when you should or should not run? We used alot of pitchers and our kids never acted out of line. Any opinion's?

11-4 is not running up the score (25-2 is).

I learned (the hard way) last year to not start to back off until I am up by 15ish runs. 7 run swings are not unusual in youth ball.

Also, I like inning run limits (7 or 10) because they make it less of an issue.

[TG Coach]

We finally got to play our first game of the year. Thanks to everyone's help on bbf my son went a true 4-4 with 6 RBI's. We won the game 18-4, but in the 4th we were up only 11-4. We have alot of team speed and steal a ton of bases. The opposing coach got very mad and starting ranting that our coach was running up the score and teaching our kids poor sportsmanship. My question is I guess to all of you coach's is this true. Is there a unspoken rule about when you should or should not run? We used alot of pitchers and our kids never acted out of line. Any opinion's?

In a league game, once you're up eight to ten runs you should stop doing aggressive things on the bases in an attempt to run up the score. The bench should play the remainder of the game in place of the team studs. The back end of the pitching staff should get turns on the mound. With free substitution, if something goes wrong you can always bring back your starters. But no matter who's in the game, play ball the right way. In turn, the opposing team shouldn't be stealing either. If the other team looks like their attempting to win, we'll go back to winning baseball to get any lost runs back.

In tournament play you run the opponent right off the field and get to the mercy to save innings for your pitchers and let your team rest. However, if the tournament team is completely helpless, pull back. We once faced a team in tournament play who had no business being there. We did everything possible to slow down the game but leave the field. We offered to accept a 6-0 forfeit when it was 18-0 after one, and 34-0 after two innings. The final was 56-2. I asked the parents to leave. I didn't want any cheering.

The bottom line for the losing team is if they're that bad, get better. If you're in a tournament you shouldn't be, don't come back.

[bbb3601]

Good point Chris. Our run rule is 10 after four. And we got the bulk of them in top of 6 .It is a travel team but only stole home 3 times. we had alot of hits..batted around twice. Coach just thought hey it's the first game and in LL who knows they could bat around on us in the next inning!?

[beisbolcrazy22]

The stealing is probably what the other coach was upset about. You cant get mad if the players are just teeing off on the opposing pitcher.
Now a days, how much is really considered a safe lead?

[Chris O'Leary]

The stealing is probably what the other coach was upset about. You cant get mad if the players are just teeing off on the opposing pitcher.

I do cut out stealing home if our guys get up by 7 or so runs.

[scorekeeper]

I do cut out stealing home if our guys get up by 7 or so runs.

Are you saying you’re team actually does a lot of “stealing” of home, or are you throwing PB’s, WP’s, and advancing because the defense isn’t paying a great deal of attention under the “stealing” umbrella?

[Chris O'Leary]

Are you saying you’re team actually does a lot of “stealing” of home, or are you throwing PB’s, WP’s, and advancing because the defense isn’t paying a great deal of attention under the “stealing” umbrella?

Number two.

It's probably better to characterize what we do as advancing on wild pitches.

[scorekeeper]

Number two.

It's probably better to characterize what we do as advancing on wild pitches.

I figgered that was the more likely event. I don’t know why so many people refer to every advance of a base without the ball being hit, as a stolen base. I suppose its pretty much why so many people call it a hit any time a batter gets on base after hitting the ball. It really doesn’t matter much, as long as its marked correctly in the scorebook! ;)

Over the years, after having been exposed to many blowouts both for and against, my observation is: there is a point in time during a game like that when it becomes painfully obvious to everyone, that one team is far superior to the other. Its seems that when that happens, the rules to the game change.

Pitchers, hitters, and fielders can still do their very best with no ill feelings coming out, but the running game is an entirely different matter. Batters can still try to beat out balls hit into play. And runners can still make every effort to not be forced, but that’s about the limit of things.

Taking an extra base when a player who’s team is getting drilled makes a slow play or an error is verboten! Taking a base because of a WP or PB is likewise a nono, and a flat out steal is unforgivable.

Its as if those things are preying on already known and understood weaknesses for no reason what-so-ever, other than to embarrass the other team. Doing that doesn’t do anything to enhance anything about the game, and is pretty universally treated as “WRONG”.

[Chris O'Leary]

Its as if those things are preying on already known and understood weaknesses for no reason what-so-ever, other than to embarrass the other team. Doing that doesn’t do anything to enhance anything about the game, and is pretty universally treated as “WRONG”.

Here's my horror story of being on the receiving end of running up the score.

It's early in the season last year and I haven't yet discovered who can pitch (my usually-reliable son has developed a fear of come-backers and won't throw strikes) and we're down something like 20 runs to a good team. My 2nd pitcher of the inning has just walked 2 guys after giving up multiple hits so men are on 1st and 2nd. 10+ runs have scored in the inning (no inning run limit last year).

I start to walk out to the mound to pull my pitcher and yell "Time, ump. Time." as I near the 3B line. Ump doesn't hear me because he's messing with his gear, but it's obvious to everyone what's going on.

My pitcher drops his head and his hands as he sees me coming out to pull him. As a result, the opposing 3B coach takes the opportunity to tell his runner on 2B to steal 3B. The guy on 1B steals 2B.

I stare at the opposing 3B coach and ask him what the ^%$& he's doing. I point out that he's up by 20 runs. He then gives me the whole "You can't tell me to tell my guys to not play the game" line.

That's what running up the score looks like.

What's worse, the next week we're down 5 runs and then score 15 runs in an inning to go up by 10 runs. The other pitcher couldn't throw strikes and it had turned into a boring walk-a-thon. I start holding my guys up (turning HRs into doubles) so that we can just get the inning over. My bullpen then melts down and we blow the 10-run lead and end up losing in the bottom of the inning.

You can't win.

This year we pushed for 7-run inning limits to reduce the likelihood that guys will be accused of running up the score.

[Chris O'Leary]

What's worse, the next week we're down 5 runs and then score 15 runs in an inning to go up by 10 runs. The other pitcher couldn't throw strikes and it had turned into a boring walk-a-thon. I start holding my guys up (turning HRs into doubles) so that we can just get the inning over. My bullpen then melts down and we blow the 10-run lead and end up losing in the bottom of the inning.

Also, the next week at practice I tell my guys that the loss was my fault because I was trying to NOT run up the score.

My 11U guys gave me some *%^& about it, but I think they respected me because they knew what I was trying to do (e.g. not be obnoxious).

So it turned out good in the end.

[catbox_9]

Always run up the score especially in baseball because there's no clock. Like the great Bill Walsh once said "If we score 50 in the first half, we'd better score 50 in the second half."

[bbb3601]

I would say about 95% of our steals were on pitch's caught clean by the catcher. They did throw our base runner out 3-4 times. I guess the main thing is the final score 18-4..with bulk of runs coming in the top of 6 would you consider this running up the score regardless of how many or how you stole the bases? The main reason I come here for advice is because my oldest is my 9 y/o. Youth sports are new to me and it just always seems that someone is pi$$ed off about something. We live in central ohio and our travel league has about 37 u9 teams so you have a big talent drop off in some areas. The problem is every year some dad gets mad johnny isn't playing enough etc and so he starts a travel team so he can have total control. that is why I took the advice from here last summer and we tried out for 6 teams we were asked to play for all but i took the time to try out the coach so to speak. For you parents with older kids does it get any better the over the top parents and coach's?\

[Baseball gLove]

Once you have a 10 run lead you should back off of stealing, UNLESS there are wild pitches and passed balls. We beat a team 24-0 in 3 innings. We stopped stealing at 10-0 in the 1st inning. Some of the boys (right handed) started batting left handed in the 3rd and scored 6 more runs.

[Jake Patterson]

Here's an article I wrote some time ago...

22701

[yuniesky4prez]

Okay, heres what I say.

Younger than 13.... dont run it up, win by a margin thats good enough to brag about, but not too just make them sad.

Above that age.... Make sure that the team you faced never wants to see you ever again because you slaughtered them so badly.

[bbb3601]

Nice article Jake. My next question on this is do the kids know what is going on? Most places we play don't have score boards so actually knowing the score requires asking the score keeper. Yes i know that most kids know if they are winning, but if you always play a certain type of ball then change are the kids able to adapt easily...I guess do you give them an explanation. The only reason I ask is some kids were asking why we let up so to speak. Is there a way to explain that is easier for a 9 y/o? I know the coach spoke with them and a few responded with the old..... well remember last year when we got spanked! Maybe it is just a no win situation? As always thank's all for comments.

[Jake Patterson]

Nice article Jake. My next question on this is do the kids know what is going on? Most places we play don't have score boards so actually knowing the score requires asking the score keeper. Yes i know that most kids know if they are winning, but if you always play a certain type of ball then change are the kids able to adapt easily...I guess do you give them an explanation. The only reason I ask is some kids were asking why we let up so to speak. Is there a way to explain that is easier for a 9 y/o? I know the coach spoke with them and a few responded with the old..... well remember last year when we got spanked! Maybe it is just a no win situation? As always thank's all for comments.

I never play to lose regardless of the score. I adjust the talent and playing opportunities based on the other team's capabilities.

Short story - I also coach basketball... We had a game this past season where it became painfully obvious in the first quarter that we were going to crush our opponents. I pulled my starters and went deep into the bench. My bottom five players crushed the other team, but the coach still came over and thanked me for what I did.

Crushing a team for the sake of crushing a team only makes the adults feel good. Players from neither team learn much when a game like this is happening.

[bbb3601]

Well said!!

[BallCoach06]

I take everything off once I get an 8-9 run lead or so depending on the texture of the game.

I am not going to tell my kids not the swing the bat, but I will take off all signs. No steals, no bunts, etc. I will just let them play.

However, like I stated, it all depends on the texture of the game. If we are up 10-1 and the opponent has not hit the ball all day, I will call of the dogs and just let them play. If we are up 15-7 and it is one of those games where we score and they score, we score and they score, I will be a little more cautious.

I have been on both sides of the fence and also seen a lot of weird things happen in youth and high school baseball. You can't take anything for granted, but you also want to respect your opponent and not embarrass anyone.

[Dev518]

I've heard that it's bad sportsmanship but I don't believe that it is. I would just steal when it's smart, because any decent baseball team could have a huge comeback, so it's always good to score runs.

[Jake Patterson]

Short story:
Years ago I had a school game in which we were leading by 12 runs in the third inning. I pulled the starters and played the bench. The other team had 18 players on the bench and the coach knew I was pulling the starters because of the large differential. He made no substitutions. I spoke with him between inning and told him, "Look coach, I'm trying my best to make a game of it, why don't you play the bench?" His reply, "We're here to win, not play the bench." They edged back and by the fifth inning it was 12-9 game with him stealing and dancing on a very young and very new pitcher. Again, he made no substitutions and between the fifth and sixth innings I told him, "We can make a game of it or we can't, your choice." Same reply, "We're here to win." "Fine." I reentered my starters, put in my best pitcher and won the game 21-9. The next game we mercied them.

What a foolish loss of opportunity to learn.

[paul5150]

I think you should still take the base one a passed ball, but not just a straight steal. I think it is more disrespectful to not go on a passed ball then to go on it.

[Utility07]

I agree.

This message wasnt long enough.

[bbb3601]

Do any of you think that a coach could or would "run" up a score due to a fear of aggressive parents sounding off, and on the other side complain about it because of the same reasons?

[Drill]

Some league are set up not to run scores up with a slaughter rule. Some tournaments are set up with a total runs for tie breakers.

If there are no tie breaker rules or slaughter rules it is an ethical question and left up to the coach.


drill

[BallCoach06]

Do any of you think that a coach could or would "run" up a score due to a fear of aggressive parents sounding off, and on the other side complain about it because of the same reasons?

In my opinion, if you are worried about parents dictating what you do, you shouldn't be coaching. Coaches need to run things the way they see fit and not worry about the outside forces.

We have a rule in our program. "I don't show up at your work and tell you how to do things, so I expect the same from you in my work place." It has seemed to work well in our program.

[Jake Patterson]

Do any of you think that a coach could or would "run" up a score due to a fear of aggressive parents sounding off, and on the other side complain about it because of the same reasons?

They should do what they should do because it's the right thing to do.

[dw8man]

To tell a run up the score story but from another point of view. Two years ago, I was coaching a T-Ball team (5 and 6 boy/girl team). We had a 7 run per inning rule and had to play all the kids in the field. That meant we had 6 infielders and about 7 outfielders. I made it a point to always swap all the infeilder for outfielders every inning. In other words, no kids played infield two inning in a row.

One game, we are playing this team stacked with 5 very good six year old boys. By the bottom of thrid inning we were down 21 to 2. We came up to bat with no chance of winning the game (time limit was going to get us if the run rule didn't). When they went out onto the field, I noticed that they put the same 6 kids in the infield for the third inning in a row. Their pitcher/1st base combo was fantastic but the same "little boys and girls" were baried in the outfield picking daisy. I call time and asked the coach to come over. I "suggested" to him that he let some of the other kids get a chance to play infield because there was no way we could catch them. He was about to change them when.... you guessed it. The dads of the "BIG BOYS" came flying out of the field (coaches are allowed to be in the field for t-ball) and went nuts. Some BS about how their kids needed more practice for the big game coming up. The head coach coward back down and said he wasn't changing anything. I found out later that they never switched kids all season and won every game. Whoo Hoo t-ball champs!! Whatever.

I would rather lose every game at that age but have all the kids come back and play the next year then to win at all cost and have even 1 kid quit because they didn't like the game!

[hiddengem]

To all you coaches and parents that think running up the score is ok, you'd better hope you never play against me if I'm managing a team. I don't give a rip about stupid power rankings, the need for more practice ect., its uncalled for and unacceptable. If you do it pro ball, your hitters will find balls in their ear hole until you stop. Its called respecting the game and your opponent, and from some of the responses I read through on this thread, some of you don't understand that.

By running up the score I'm talking about stopping the running game, going 1st to 3rd only on an obvious situation where you have to go, and you better not swing at a 3-0 pitch. This should stop if you are up by 8 runs with 3 innings to go and if you up by more than that at any time it should stop. and stay that way until the score changes. If you want to take your starters out fine, thats your call but its not necessary. You might take a couple guys out in the last inning or 2. If you team is killing somebody by 10-15 runs early in the game, the right thing to do would be to put in a pitcher that doesn't get many innings and your players that don't play much. I'm not saying you don't continue to play the game hard, hell no, run hard, play hard but be respectful.

Nobody wants to be on the field getting their balls kicked in, and its even worse when it gets rubbed in. Thats a great way to get your players hurt.

[Jake Patterson]

To all you coaches and parents that think running up the score is ok, you'd better hope you never play against me if I'm managing a team. I don't give a rip about stupid power rankings, the need for more practice ect., its uncalled for and unacceptable. If you do it pro ball, your hitters will find balls in their ear hole until you stop. Its called respecting the game and your opponent, and from some of the responses I read through on this thread, some of you don't understand that.

By running up the score I'm talking about stopping the running game, going 1st to 3rd only on an obvious situation where you have to go, and you better not swing at a 3-0 pitch. This should stop if you are up by 8 runs with 3 innings to go and if you up by more than that at any time it should stop. and stay that way until the score changes. If you want to take your starters out fine, thats your call but its not necessary. You might take a couple guys out in the last inning or 2. If you team is killing somebody by 10-15 runs early in the game, the right thing to do would be to put in a pitcher that doesn't get many innings and your players that don't play much. I'm not saying you don't continue to play the game hard, hell no, run hard, play hard but be respectful.

Nobody wants to be on the field getting their balls kicked in, and its even worse when it gets rubbed in. Thats a great way to get your players hurt.

Thanks HG. The professional perspective is always appreciated on topics like this.

[bbb3601]

We had our first practice since the game on Friday today and as i expected some of the Dad's were going on and on about how coach should not have held the kids back etc. To be quite honest after the conversation we have all had on here it disgusted me. I feel sorry for our coach because I think we have a great team, but I think he is in for a long year with some of our parent's. One if the dad's asked me what I thought of the game and I said I thought it was great. Good hitting pitching etc....then he gave the YEAH but we shoulda won by 30. His mind set was that since the opposing coach made a scene and accused us of trying to run it up that we should have poured it on them and showed them what running it up really is..... Man I sure am glad my days of youth sports are over...hell when I played you were lucky if dad made 2 games a year now it's like getting a second mortgage on your house.....painful

[Jake Patterson]

We had our first practice since the game on Friday today and as i expected some of the Dad's were going on and on about how coach should not have held the kids back etc. To be quite honest after the conversation we have all had on here it disgusted me. I feel sorry for our coach because I think we have a great team, but I think he is in for a long year with some of our parent's. One if the dad's asked me what I thought of the game and I said I thought it was great. Good hitting pitching etc....then he gave the YEAH but we shoulda won by 30. His mind set was that since the opposing coach made a scene and accused us of trying to run it up that we should have poured it on them and showed them what running it up really is..... Man I sure am glad my days of youth sports are over...hell when I played you were lucky if dad made 2 games a year now it's like getting a second mortgage on your house.....painful

Maybe you should refer them here...

[bbb3601]

A Baseball Poem
There once was a game, as pure as could be,
To keep our kids busy, in a time before TV.
Kids would rise up at dawn and reach for their glove,
be out until dinner with the game that they love.
There were no rule books, committees, or boards,
no organizations, stat sheets, there were no awards.
Then came the parents, to fix this great game,
“Let’s form a league and give it a name.”
Then parents can watch them, and cheer for their son
There won’t be any pressure, the kids will have fun.
Now parents are watching, the egos inflate
“My son is awesome, my son is great.”
“No my son is better, he’ll hit a home run,
He should be playing, not the coaches son.”
A boy stands at the plate and hears Daddy shout,
“bat back, eyes level, you best not strike out”
He runs hard to first, the throws not in time.
The first baseman’s Dad screams “That umpires blind”
Now Dad is yelling “Get a bigger lead”
He tells all who listen about his sons great speed.
Coach gives him the steal sign, a close play at the bag
Did he get caught at second, or slide under the tag.
“He’s out” yells the ump, (He got the call right)
Now parents are screaming, there’s almost a fight.
Dad is now saying “This coach is a fool.”
If I were the manager this team would rule
No one sees the tear in that poor kid’s eye
Not ‘cause he’s out, but we all know why.
So here’s to the parents who ruined the game
Baseball will never quite be the same.

[bbb3601]

A poem most of you have already seen but I just saw it how fitting!!

[Jake Patterson]

A Baseball Poem
There once was a game, as pure as could be,
To keep our kids busy, in a time before TV.
Kids would rise up at dawn and reach for their glove,
be out until dinner with the game that they love.
There were no rule books, committees, or boards,
no organizations, stat sheets, there were no awards.
Then came the parents, to fix this great game,
“Let’s form a league and give it a name.”
Then parents can watch them, and cheer for their son
There won’t be any pressure, the kids will have fun.
Now parents are watching, the egos inflate
“My son is awesome, my son is great.”
“No my son is better, he’ll hit a home run,
He should be playing, not the coaches son.”
A boy stands at the plate and hears Daddy shout,
“bat back, eyes level, you best not strike out”
He runs hard to first, the throws not in time.
The first baseman’s Dad screams “That umpires blind”
Now Dad is yelling “Get a bigger lead”
He tells all who listen about his sons great speed.
Coach gives him the steal sign, a close play at the bag
Did he get caught at second, or slide under the tag.
“He’s out” yells the ump, (He got the call right)
Now parents are screaming, there’s almost a fight.
Dad is now saying “This coach is a fool.”
If I were the manager this team would rule
No one sees the tear in that poor kid’s eye
Not ‘cause he’s out, but we all know why.
So here’s to the parents who ruined the game
Baseball will never quite be the same.

Very good .

[TG Coach]

This should stop if you are up by 8 runs with 3 innings to go and if you up by more than that at any time it should stop.


Youth ball isn't pro ball. Eight runs in three innings to play isn't that big of a lead lead in youth ball. In tournament ball at eight runs, a team goes for the knockout to rest their team and save pitching. It's the way tournament ball is played.

[merdon133]

You score and score, that's the game. Now you don't need to steal home unless the other team not catching the ball, you don't need to squeeze a run across the plate or bunt for a base hit. But to back off is stupid and an insult to the opposing team IMO. But you also nee to look out for the betterment( if that's a word) of the kids on the other team. At plus 15 runs I would use that time to get less experance player more time at new position. New pitcher a chance and so on, try new things out

[Jake Patterson]

You score and score, that's the game. Now you don't need to steal home unless the other team not catching the ball, you don't need to squeeze a run across the plate or bunt for a base hit. But to back off is stupid and an insult to the opposing team IMO. But you also nee to look out for the betterment( if that's a word) of the kids on the other team. At plus 15 runs I would use that time to get less experance player more time at new position. New pitcher a chance and so on, try new things out

Merdon, read the article Running up the score. When is enough, enough. I do not feel you ever back off. You play to win all the time. WHAT YOU DO is adjust the talent that's on the field. Switch pitchers, play the bench, maybe move players around, hold runners stealing home, BUT you always play to win. That's how you respect the game.

[hiddengem]

Youth ball isn't pro ball. Eight runs in three innings to play isn't that big of a lead lead in youth ball. In tournament ball at eight runs, a team goes for the knockout to rest their team and save pitching
. It's the way tournament ball is played.


This may be a little harsh, but its the way I honestly feel. I don't give to rats rear ends about your tournament ball. Are you all about winning or are you about teaching your kids how to play the game and get them ready for higher levels? I realize that most people in your position(from my experience) tend to live vicariously through the teams they are coaching but give me a break. The stance that you are taking on this situation is the root of the problems with our youth leagues.

When I played, it was about respecting the game and your opponent. You don't show a player or a team up on the field or you have problems. You can beat a team with class and you can beat a team with no class. I get the feeling that you might not know the difference. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[hiddengem]

But to back off is stupid and an insult to the opposing team IMO.

How do you figure?? How is not embarrasing a team on the field an insult to them? I just hope you don't come across a coach that feels the way I do or somebody might pay if you deliberately show their team up. And that WILL be the last time you do it. Its not rocket science people.


You might beat my team by 20 runs thats not what I'm concerned about. Its how you do that concerns me. If you are beating me by 8-10 runs at any point and you steal, bunt or swing at a pitch 3-0 we are going to have problems.
If I ever coach at the youth level, I may not be the winningest coach around but my kids will know how to play them the right way and because of it, be much more prepared for the high school, college and eventually the pro level. If as a youth coach all your concerned about is winning that stupid tournament trophy, you need to check yourself.

[TG Coach]

I realize that most people in your position(from my experience) tend to live vicariously through the teams they are coaching but give me a break.

I don't have to live vicariously through anyone. I've had my day playing for several champions at the high school, Legion and D1 level. Professionally and financially I've accomplished enough where I'm free to chose any option for the rest of my life many years before retirement age. If you watch me during a game you can't tell if we're winning or losing. I'm about playing the game with the proper skills sets, proper attitude, hustle, passion and having fun. With all that in place, winning takes care of itself. If we lose, there's the next game or the next tournament.

Are you all about winning or are you about teaching your kids how to play the game and get them ready for higher levels?

The purpose of our team is to prepare talented players for high school/Legion ball. We're not hoping these players reach high school and Legion ball. We expect it. The coaching staff is five former college and/or pro players. Every position is covered with instruction from players who performed at these positions and were coached at these positions at a high level of ball.

The stance that you are taking on this situation is the root of the problems with our youth leagues.

We don't play in a youth league. We only play tournament ball. It's Majors which is the highest level. It's very competitive. It's not rec ball where someone's self-esteem might take a hit by losing and mommy gets upset. Our kids compete hard. If they fail, how they deal with it is all part of getting to high school ball. Talent is just half the battle. Mental approach is just as important.

When I played, it was about respecting the game and your opponent. You don't show a player or a team up on the field or you have problems. You can beat a team with class and you can beat a team with no class. I get the feeling that you might not know the difference. Hopefully I'm wrong.

In tournament ball, it's possible to play three or four games on a Sunday after playing two on Saturday, depending on the size of the tournament. Taking out a team early saves pitching innings and provides the team additional rest and saves energy. It's not showing up the other team. It's a strategy used by every team.

There's a flip side to it as well. In a league game how often would you see a team play for one run by bunting and stealing down by nine runs to avoid a mercy? This team is playing to prolong the game because they obviously believe they can still win. Some teams do it just to claim they weren't mercied.

The team on the losing side gets it if they're experienced in tournament ball. It's not like it happens all the time. In fact on a bad day, it can happen to the best of teams. Even we got mercied last year. The wheels fell off one game.

League play is a whole different animal. Like tournament ball, there's a point where you know you're going to win. But since it's the only game that day or one game of a doubleheader, the game can be managed passively to the end.

To close, I thought your attitude sucked. You started with an attitude and closed with an attitude in discussing an area of competition (tournament ball) where you're obviously uninformed. And yes we play to win. I don't know a competitive person or team who plays to lose.

Now we could have a whole other conversation on the concept of tournament ball. Personally I think playing three or four games in a day is nuts. Pros don't do it. Colleges don't do it. High school and Legion doesn't do it. But for the talented 13U to 15U kids it's where the competition is. In an era where no one gets cut in rec ball, an aspiring high school player does not want to play in a rec league with kids who can't throw and catch a ball properly. I can't wait for Legion ball when a heavy weekend means two doubleheaders.

[Ursa Major]

TG Coach said to Hiddengem: You started with an attitude and closed with an attitude in discussing an area of competition (tournament ball) where you're obviously uninformed. And yes we play to win. I don't know a competitive person or team who plays to lose.Yeah, HG, you just don't understand high level baseball, y'hear? :happy:

TG, whether a team wins or loses a particular ball game has zip to do with whether or not the individual players are readied to play higher levels of ball. Nor does declining to steal bases or deciding to put weaker players in to play in a blowout.

What does your stud pitcher learn by throwing heat past an inferior hitter? Nothing! But giving your younger, developing pitchers a chance to face any live competition will give him an edge when it starts to become time for him to step up and be a prime time pitcher. And that's not "playing to lose" either.

And you don't need to be involved in tournament ball to be "informed" about the best way to play. All of us here -- including Hiddengem -- know and work with youngsters and have a pretty fair understanding of the obligation to help guide them to grow to be better people ... which in turn may make them better doctors and architects and teachers and all those other things they'll really be doing in life.

My two cents on the situation. In our league we have a 9u division that I have no stake in other than that I know parents with kids in it (and my son umpires there). One of the weakest teams was missing its only good pitcher and got crushed 26-2. I know the family of the smallest kid on the prevailing team and am aware that he's only played the outfield so far. So, when I saw his mom tonight I asked if he finally got some infield time. She shook her head sadly and resignedly and said, "No, that's not how our coaches do it. He still was in the outfield." Heads should roll on that one.

[GFK]

...My two cents on the situation. In our league we have a 9u division that I have no stake in other than that I know parents with kids in it (and my son umpires there). One of the weakest teams was missing its only good pitcher and got crushed 26-2. I know the family of the smallest kid on the prevailing team and am aware that he's only played the outfield so far. So, when I saw his mom tonight I asked if he finally got some infield time. She shook her head sadly and resignedly and said, "No, that's not how our coaches do it. He still was in the outfield." Heads should roll on that one.

Ursa Major, I am not looking for a fight or an arguement, just trying to put up a different viewpoint. I don't know if this applies in the situation you describe.

I have one son who plays nothing but select and travel. I have two other sons that play rec for now. The two that play rec are above average within their rec league. They are above average because they practice in the off season.

Several of the kids on the rec team have not touched a baseball or bat since the last season ended. They do not practice outside of team practices. Yet they hoop and hollar that they want to pitch and play this position or that position. Several can not catch the ball, throw the ball, or hit the ball. Why should a kid that has worked to get his spot and can play the spot be displaced by a kid that has not? What message does that send to the kid who has worked to get his spot and can play the spot?

I agree baseball teaches the boys more than simply baseball skills. Work ethic and competition would be two of those things that transcends the field. I do agree in rec ball one should not run up the score when it is obvious the other team is outmatched. In tournament play, you go for mercy rule to get out of it and save the pitching.

Ursa, as I said before, I am not looking for an arguement or a fight. I find your posts have good content and well worth reading. I just wanted to post a different view of the same issue.

[Jake Patterson]

This may be a little harsh, but its the way I honestly feel. I don't give to rats rear ends about your tournament ball. Are you all about winning or are you about teaching your kids how to play the game and get them ready for higher levels? I realize that most people in your position(from my experience) tend to live vicariously through the teams they are coaching but give me a break. The stance that you are taking on this situation is the root of the problems with our youth leagues.

When I played, it was about respecting the game and your opponent. You don't show a player or a team up on the field or you have problems. You can beat a team with class and you can beat a team with no class. I get the feeling that you might not know the difference. Hopefully I'm wrong.

HG,
Great post.
Having the luxury of looking back gives us a great view. Looking back however and trying to understand what really mattered is even better.

This topic facinates me as many parents and coaches just don't seem to understand what it takes to play at higher levels (In my case HS and Legion). I often talk about the umimportance of a player's resume (Which to the parents usually includes wins/loss and the tournament teams they played on). What they bring to the HS try-out field is the only thing that mattered to me as a HS coach. I could care less about the other stuff.
Jake

[TG Coach]

Yeah, HG, you just don't understand high level baseball, y'hear? :happy:


TG, whether a team wins or loses a particular ball game has zip to do with whether or not the individual players are readied to play higher levels of ball. Nor does declining to steal bases or deciding to put weaker players in to play in a blowout.

What does your stud pitcher learn by throwing heat past an inferior hitter? Nothing! But giving your younger, developing pitchers a chance to face any live competition will give him an edge when it starts to become time for him to step up and be a prime time pitcher. And that's not "playing to lose" either.

And you don't need to be involved in tournament ball to be "informed" about the best way to play. All of us here -- including Hiddengem -- know and work with youngsters and have a pretty fair understanding of the obligation to help guide them to grow to be better people ... which in turn may make them better doctors and architects and teachers and all those other things they'll really be doing in life.

My two cents on the situation. In our league we have a 9u division that I have no stake in other than that I know parents with kids in it (and my son umpires there). One of the weakest teams was missing its only good pitcher and got crushed 26-2. I know the family of the smallest kid on the prevailing team and am aware that he's only played the outfield so far. So, when I saw his mom tonight I asked if he finally got some infield time. She shook her head sadly and resignedly and said, "No, that's not how our coaches do it. He still was in the outfield." Heads should roll on that one.

I have a little exposure to playing high level baseball. Ever heard of a level called D1? So I've played at a high enough level to understand how the game is played.

Skill wise winning and losing doesn't prepare a kid to play high school ball. Emotionally how he handles winning and losing does. How he handles pressure situations in games does. Games are the test. Practice is the classroom. The games validate what the player learned in the classroom. But teams do play to win, otherwise kids would only practice until high school. Besides, along the way from kiddie ball on up, the game is supposed to be fun. Playing is fun. Winning is more fun than losing. Playing against weak competition does not prepare a kid for high school ball.

Now, on the following you can get in the tournament ball ignorance line right behind Hidden.

"What does your stud pitcher learn by throwing heat past an inferior hitter?"

What inferior hitters? The worst hitters in 14U majors tournament ball were the best kids in their rec programs.

"But giving your younger, developing pitchers a chance to face any live competition will give him an edge when it starts to become time for him to step up and be a prime time pitcher."

What younger developing pitchers? Every player is fourteen. Every pitcher would be a starter in his middle school team if there was one. Everyone one of these kids were top two or three in their league back when they played LL. Everyone one of these kids will be starting next year in high school whether it's freshman, JV or varsity.

"So, when I saw his mom tonight I asked if he finally got some infield time. She shook her head sadly and resignedly and said, "No, that's not how our coaches do it. He still was in the outfield." Heads should roll on that one"

Our players are already mostly playing the positions their high school coaches expect them to play next year in high school. Our players don't see not playing infield as a crime. They know rightfield is just as important as second base. In fact, we work it the other way. We make sure our infielders get outfield time. We give infielders outfield work in case their hitting can move them up a level in high school and there isn't an infield spot on the field. I told my son it would be better to be the starting leftfielder as a freshman or sophomore than backup to the All-Conference senior shortstop or playing JV.

We don't have a 9U division. Please stop comparing kiddie ball with 14U USSSA majors tournament ball. I realize when the kids are in high school, anything before varsity will have been made irrelevant from a competitive standpoint. The past will be nothing more than memories and fun. But these kids are competing at the highest level of competition in their area in preparation for high school.

"And you don't need to be involved in tournament ball to be "informed" about the best way to play. All of us here -- including Hiddengem -- know and work with youngsters and have a pretty fair understanding of the obligation to help guide them to grow to be better people ... which in turn may make them better doctors and architects and teachers and all those other things they'll really be doing in life."

Why do you think we're doing anything else. If you understood tournament ball, you would know players and coaches don't get bent out of shape over a team going for a mercy. To have an offense requires an offended party. We don't have weak players and competition. If a team gets mercied they have one or two approaches, 1) go get 'em next time or 2) we're not a tournament team.

We faced a team who didn't belong in tournament ball last year. Without running it was 12-0 after the first inning. This is not the norm. Most tournament games are close once teams get the early season kinks out. We broke out the wood bats in the second inning. We let kids pitch who weren't pitchers. We just told them not to joke around on the mound. We didn't want the other team to know they weren't pitchers. On balls to the fence we took our standup double. There was no going for three. We weren't rounding bases hard. We knew no matter what when the fourth inning arrived we would be up by more than ten. I know how to pull back when it's obvious it's over. But it's not how tournament ball is played with an eight or nine run lead.

[Jake Patterson]

I think a problem might be making a connection between 14U anything and "high level."

Having run that gauntlet and looking back I now realize how foolish my views regarding this were.

[TG Coach]

HG,
Great post.
Having the luxury of looking back gives us a great view. Looking back however and trying to understand what really mattered is even better.

This topic facinates me as many parents and coaches just don't seem to understand what it takes to play at higher levels (In my case HS and Legion). I often talk about the umimportance of a player's resume (Which to the parents usually includes wins/loss and the tournament teams they played on). What they bring to the HS try-out field is the only thing that mattered to me as a HS coach. I could care less about the other stuff.
Jake

Jake,

Rec league ball and tournament ball are apples and oranges. The strategies as defined are different. In our area all the best and motivated players go to tournament ball. In a weekend my son will face several fourteen year old pitchers throwing between 75-82. If he played rec ball he'd be facing a bunch of pitchers pussing it up to the plate in the 60's. Which do you think is going to have my son more prepared to play high school ball next year? Ultimately it's about innate ability and desire, but experience counts too. My son isn't expecting to play freshman ball next year. Neither are his travel teammates. My son expects to skip freshman ball and start on JV. If he hits well enough there's a remote chance he could make varsity. He expects to play varsity as a soph.

If he's only seen 60-ish fastballs, he's not playing JV or varsity next year. He'd need a year to adapt in freshman ball. Then a year on JV's to ramp up further. Once a kid is past kiddie ball he should play at the highest level of competition he can handle. In fact last year my son played in a couple of 16U JV summer ball games. He went 3-5. He said the pitching was about the same as the best 13U tournament pitchers. Those would have been six foot thirteen year olds hitting eighty.

[deaconspoint]

Several of the kids on the rec team have not touched a baseball or bat since the last season ended. They do not practice outside of team practices. Yet they hoop and hollar that they want to pitch and play this position or that position. Several can not catch the ball, throw the ball, or hit the ball. Why should a kid that has worked to get his spot and can play the spot be displaced by a kid that has not? What message does that send to the kid who has worked to get his spot and can play the spot?



Because it is a rec team and everyone paid to play and learn. I'd say my boy puts in a little more time than most in his league during the off season and during the week. He also runs his little butt into the outfield with a smile on his face when it's his turn. He doesn't always liek it and neither does his dad, but that's the way it is and shouold be at that level. His reward for his extra effort comes when he makes a play. Not when he is placed where the plays will come to him. Anyone can do that. Now, if he stands out enough that his coach decides to play him in certain positions then I am not going to argue, but I understand that all get a chance.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,
Rec league ball and tournament ball are apples and oranges. The strategies as defined are different.
TG, You do not need to explain the difference to me. We were a TB family for years, participating in many tournaments to include several international tournaments.

[TG Coach]

I think a problem might be making a connection between 14U anything and "high level."

Having run that gauntlet and looking back I now realize how foolish my views regarding this were.


It's high level for 14U. Not high level. What it is, is the cream of the fourteen year olds. It's where a team may have five kids who would be their team stud on a Babe Ruth all-star team, playing short and batting cleanup, but in this competitive environment one my be playing leftfield and batting sixth. In fact we smoked a Babe Ruth team last year that went to the 13U BRWS.

I believe once a kid can play on the full size field, he should be playing at the highest level of competition he can handle to prepare him for high school ball. For my son, where we live, tournament ball is it. The rec leagues are horrible. Even middle school ball is like watching baseball in slow motion compared to travel.

[dw8man]

Why should a kid that has worked to get his spot and can play the spot be displaced by a kid that has not?

No one is saying that a kids should lose "his spot", just when a team is winning big, move some of the kids around or allow someone a chance to play. In rec ball what is a kids position? I hope he is learning more then one (to include the outfield) because who knows where he will play later. I have heard a number of parents who say "my kid should only play X position" only to see the kid not playing in school ball because they couldn't adjust. If a coach rotates the kids between positions (2 is enough but some can handle more) as a standard, they will learn more and it will be easier to move them around when blow outs happen.


What message does that send to the kid who has worked to get his spot and can play the spot?


A good coach or parent would know how to handle this so a kids wont be affected. If a kid is getting upset about coming out of a game or moving to a different postion, we are failing to prepare them for life!!

[dw8man]

It's high level for 14U. The rec leagues are horrible. Even middle school ball is like watching baseball in slow motion compared to travel.

This is not the case everywhere. We have played in some very good TB leagues, to include East Cobb, and have found that the level of competition on a day to day bases is just about as good in our Middle School league and rec league. I know this is not the case everywhere but TB isn't the end all of good baseball. If it was, our little AAA HS wouldn't be ranked 23 in the nation right now.

[scorekeeper]

What I get a kick out of, is hearing so many people whine about how tough it is to play all the games tournaments require. The answer seems pretty obvious to me. DON’T GO TO THE TOURNAMENTS!

The only reason al those games are played is because it makes money for those putting on the tournament! The players aren’t gonna get any better by playing 6 games in 3 days, than they are just playing 3!

[hiddengem]

I don't have to live vicariously through anyone. I've had my day playing for several champions at the high school, Legion and D1 level. Professionally and financially .

Good for you buddy, then being so concerned about winning a stupid tournament shouldn't be a concern.

I've accomplished enough where I'm free to chose any option for the rest of my life many years before retirement age

Good, then can I assume you let your kids play for free on your team?

The coaching staff is five former college and/or pro players. Every position is covered with instruction from players who performed at these positions and were coached at these positions at a high level of ball.

Even more reason to be embarrased at the stance you take.


We don't play in a youth league.
What is a youth? My understanding of it was a person under the age of 18 when they become an adult.

We only play tournament ball.
Again, I don't give a rip. The only thing Tournament balls does is guarantee you that you'll play against some better competition. It doesn't give you the right to go out and blow up a team. Maybe you should be the better man, and take a stance on the issue instead of being a follower. Maybe you should be the man that decides to play the game the right way and if that means you tournament ends early once in a while, great, then I don't have to hear you whine about all the games you have to play in one freakin day. Talk about wearing some kids out, you need to serioulsy think about what you are doing.

There's a flip side to it as well. In a league game how often would you see a team play for one run by bunting and stealing down by nine runs to avoid a mercy? This team is playing to prolong the game because they obviously believe they can still win.
They should belive they can win, you don't just give up when you are getting killed.

Some teams do it just to claim they weren't mercied.

EXACTLY my point, nobody wants to go out and be embarrased whether its tournament ball or rec ball.


To close, I thought your attitude sucked.
Thats just too bad.


You started with an attitude and closed with an attitude in discussing an area of competition (tournament ball) where you're obviously uninformed. And yes we play to win.

Let me tell you something partner. I owned a 20,000 sq ft facilty that had more tournament teams go their and more tournaments run from it than you could shake a stick at and I am more informered on its atrocities than I ever hoped to be. Tournaments are about making money, period. If you think they are concerned about the kids you've got another thing coming and the fact that you and all your coaches with all that "high level" experience have fallen into the trap is really sad.
I don't know a competitive person or team who plays to lose.
Maybe you could go back and find the spot where I said a team should play to lose.

Now we could have a whole other conversation on the concept of tournament ball. Personally I think playing three or four games in a day is nuts. Pros don't do it. Colleges don't do it. High school and Legion doesn't do it.

Again, what is the reason you play tournament ball? To play against better competition or to embarrase teams on the field so you can advance one game closer to that trophy? If you don't agree with the way tournament ball is run and you don't like what its doing to your players, why don't you do something about it? Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you play all those games. How about showing up to a tournment, getting your work in and getting out? Oh wait, you might not get your power rankings that way and might not get invited to the "USSSA blah blah World Series of Youth Tournament ball". If your true goal for your kids is to have them preparaed to play high school and higher, than you'll understand my stance. If not than you won't.

[TG Coach]

This is not the case everywhere. We have played in some very good TB leagues, to include East Cobb, and have found that the level of competition on a day to day bases is just about as good in our Middle School league and rec league. I know this is not the case everywhere but TB isn't the end all of good baseball. If it was, our little AAA HS wouldn't be ranked 23 in the nation right now.

Here, the travel ball leagues are a lower level of competition. When they enter the AAA or majors tournaments they get killed. There are three players on my son's middle school team who can play competitive tournament ball.

During the high school years kids leave travel for Legion ball. The travel ball you see in high school is showcase or fall ball.

[TG Coach]

What I get a kick out of, is hearing so many people whine about how tough it is to play all the games tournaments require. The answer seems pretty obvious to me. DON’T GO TO THE TOURNAMENTS!

The only reason al those games are played is because it makes money for those putting on the tournament! The players aren’t gonna get any better by playing 6 games in 3 days, than they are just playing 3!

Here's a bigger complaint. Stop the huggy, feely good BS where every kid has the right to make a team and play even though he never learned to catch or throw a ball properly by age fourteen. Then the good players will stay home and my son won't have to play tournaments to get decent competition. When I played BR ball we had to make a team. Now everyone is entitled not only to make the team but get a certain amount of playing time. It's ball that's way to dumbed down for the talented kids.

[hiddengem]

Here's a bigger complaint. Stop the huggy, feely good BS where every kid has the right to make a team and play even though he never learned to catch or throw a ball properly by age fourteen.

You otta by right down ashamed of yourself. You have now dropped to your all time low and reveiled to all of us your true colors. You are talking about kids, KIDS you horses ***, that want to go out and play a game. Its people like YOU that are the root reason many kids turn to drugs and trouble because they are not good enough to play on your preppy little select team or their mom and dad can't afford to pay your rediculous costs to play on the team.

Now everyone is entitled not only to make the team but get a certain amount of playing time.

Now, isn't this just a crying shame. A kid that wants go out and play a game like the rest of us, should get the opportunity to run out on the field and feel good about himself. You have completely fallen into the trap and are the root problem of youth sports in general.

[TG Coach]

Good for you buddy, then being so concerned about winning a stupid tournament shouldn't be a concern.

Good, then can I assume you let your kids play for free on your team?

Even more reason to be embarrased at the stance you take.

What is a youth? My understanding of it was a person under the age of 18 when they become an adult.

Again, I don't give a rip. The only thing Tournament balls does is guarantee you that you'll play against some better competition. It doesn't give you the right to go out and blow up a team. Maybe you should be the better man, and take a stance on the issue instead of being a follower. Maybe you should be the man that decides to play the game the right way and if that means you tournament ends early once in a while, great, then I don't have to hear you whine about all the games you have to play in one freakin day. Talk about wearing some kids out, you need to serioulsy think about what you are doing.

They should belive they can win, you don't just give up when you are getting killed.

EXACTLY my point, nobody wants to go out and be embarrased whether its tournament ball or rec ball.

Thats just too bad.

Let me tell you something partner. I owned a 20,000 sq ft facilty that had more tournament teams go their and more tournaments run from it than you could shake a stick at and I am more informered on its atrocities than I ever hoped to be. Tournaments are about making money, period. If you think they are concerned about the kids you've got another thing coming and the fact that you and all your coaches with all that "high level" experience have fallen into the trap is really sad.
Maybe you could go back and find the spot where I said a team should play to lose.

Again, what is the reason you play tournament ball? To play against better competition or to embarrase teams on the field so you can advance one game closer to that trophy? If you don't agree with the way tournament ball is run and you don't like what its doing to your players, why don't you do something about it? Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you play all those games. How about showing up to a tournment, getting your work in and getting out? Oh wait, you might not get your power rankings that way and might not get invited to the world series of youth tournament ball. If your true goal for your kids is to have them preparaed to play high school and higher, than you'll understand my stance. If not than you won't.

You're being an absolute jack***! How many questions have you asked? All you've done is make assumptions and attack.

I could care less what our power ranking is. I could care less where we rank in the state or in the country. I don't even know what our rank is. By talent and competitiveness in the tournaments I'd say were one of the top five teams in our tri-state area. I would also say we're not the best. The potential is there, though.

We don't always play in USSSA tournaments to make sure we get points. Sometimes we just schedule doubleheaders against the best teams to avoid tournaments Why? We don't care about the points. All we care about is teaching kids how to play the game and placing them in competitive situations.

In regards to mercies, in order to commit an offense, there has to be an offended party. I've never seen a regular tournament coach or team get offended by getting mercied. They know it's part of the way tournament ball is played.

As I stated earlier, and you would have noticed if you were reading and comprehending instead of just attacking, playing in a normal league game or doubleheader a team should never use the same tactics as tournament ball. They should passively play out the game. By passively I mean not taking the extra base, not playing so aggressively as to encourage errors and give players extra work at positions they don't get as much work. I'd add give the bench more playing time, but we rotate all our players. No one is really considered a bench player.

To top it all off, there aren't even enough blowouts and mercies for this to be such a big issue. And after next year, my son will move on to Legion ball and we'll be done with the tournaments.

I'm very aware the tournaments are a money making event. So is making cars. Maybe you should sell your car and walk because auto manufacterers and dealers are trying to make a buck. There wouldn't be a market for tournament ball if local rec ball hadn't become what it has, which is terrible quality and non competitve. It wasn't that way when I played, but it is now.

[dw8man]

Here's a bigger complaint. Stop the huggy, feely good BS where every kid has the right to make a team and play even though he never learned to catch or throw a ball properly by age fourteen. Then the good players will stay home and my son won't have to play tournaments to get decent competition. When I played BR ball we had to make a team. Now everyone is entitled not only to make the team but get a certain amount of playing time. It's ball that's way to dumbed down for the talented kids.

Our MS coach kept a kid this year that never had played baseball before. He is a 14 year old 8th grader. A number of the parents of the younger players who didn't make the team fussed that it wasn't fair or right that he got picked over their son and so on. We have just finished our season and he has developed into an okay player after just 2 months and has a ton of potential. Our goal is to keep him playing this summer and by the time he is a Junior or Senior in HS, watch out!

Now, he could have been stuck on the bench or might not even have made the team but he was picked and now has a real chance if he wants it. The best part is this is a young man with a very poor family life. He will not be able to go to college without an atheltic scholorship and let alone play TB (he can't even afford the rec league). Heck our coaches and MS teachers have to pick him from his house everyday to make sure he gets to school. Someone took a chance on him and hopefully it will pay off big time for him!

[hiddengem]

Our MS coach kept a kid this year that never had played baseball before. He is a 14 year old 8th grader. A number of the parents of the younger players who didn't make the team fussed that it wasn't fair or right that he got picked over their son and so on. We have just finished our season and he has developed into an okay player after just 2 months and has a ton of potential. Our goal is to keep him playing this summer and by the time he is a Junior or Senior in HS, watch out!

Now, he could have been stuck on the bench or might not even have made the team but he was picked and now has a real chance if he wants it. The best part is this is a young man with a very poor family life. He will not be able to go to college without an atheltic scholorship and let alone play TB (he can't even afford the rec league). Heck our coaches and MS teachers have to pick him from his house everyday to make sure he gets to school. Someone took a chance on him and hopefully it will pay off big time for him!


This guy would have never given him the chance. Instead he would have complained that the system forces him to make the team and better yet get a chance to play.

[TG Coach]

You otta by right down ashamed of yourself. You have now dropped to your all time low and reveiled to all of us your true colors. You are talking about kids, KIDS you horses ***, that want to go out and play a game. Its people like YOU that are the root reason many kids turn to drugs and trouble because they are not good enough to play on your preppy little select team or their mom and dad can't afford to pay your rediculous costs to play on the team.

Now, isn't this just a crying shame. A kid that wants go out and play a game like the rest of us, should get the opportunity to run out on the field and feel good about himself. You have completely fallen into the trap and are the root problem of youth sports in general.


I have to change my view on my last post. I stated you're acting like a jackass. I'd like to change it to you ARE a jackass. And you know what they say about those who assume. You've made an ass of yourself.

How do you know how expensive our team is? You assume it's expensive because you're an ass. You have no idea how subsidized our team is and where the subsidy comes from. Maybe you believe all tournament teams are expensive because your facility has been screwing parents for years with the high cost of tournament ball and expensive lessons. I'll bet most of the kids on our team couldn't afford to play on any team your facility has sponsored. Our kids lessons are free. The coaches chip in for the use of the facility and provide the lessons.

Do you believe kids are entitled to make a team when they are in their teens approaching high school? Why not just let every kid who feels like it be on the high school varsity. Let's give them all playing time. Where does it stop? Afterall, you said they're youths through high school. Let's not hurt anyone's feelings by cutting them in middle school because they never made the effort to be competent. The reason so many rec players are as bad as they are at baseball now is they know they don't have to practice, improve and earn it. All they have to do is show up when they feel like it. I believe a kid should learn to catch and throw a ball to make a team in his teens.

Kids don't take drugs because they get cut from teams. There are a lot of other activities other than baseball. They take drugs because their parents didn't raise them properly and monitor what they're doing as teens.

[hiddengem]

You're being an absolute jack***! How many questions have you asked? All you've done is make assumptions and attack.

I could care less what our power ranking is. I could care less where we rank in the state or in the country. I don't even know what our rank is. By talent and competitiveness in the tournaments I'd say were one of the top five teams in our tri-state area. I would also say we're not the best. The potential is there, though.

We don't always play in USSSA tournaments to make sure we get points. Sometimes we just schedule doubleheaders against the best teams to avoid tournaments Why? We don't care about the points. All we care about is teaching kids how to play the game and placing them in competitive situations.

In regards to mercies, in order to commit an offense, there has to be an offended party. I've never seen a regular tournament coach or team get offended by getting mercied. They know it's part of the way tournament ball is played.

As I stated earlier, and you would have noticed if you were reading and comprehending instead of just attacking, playing in a normal league game or doubleheader a team should never use the same tactics as tournament ball. They should passively play out the game. By passively I mean not taking the extra base, not playing so aggressively as to encourage errors and give players extra work at positions they don't get as much work. I'd add give the bench more playing time, but we rotate all our players. No one is really considered a bench player.

To top it all off, there aren't even enough blowouts and mercies for this to be such a big issue. And after next year, my son will move on to Legion ball and we'll be done with the tournaments.

So is making cars. Maybe you should sell your car and walk because auto manufacterers and dealers are trying to make a buck. There wouldn't be a market for tournament ball if local rec ball hadn't become what it has, which is terrible quality and non competitve. It wasn't that way when I played, but it is now.


If I need to be a Jack*** to get my point across so be it. Trust me there are far more people reading this thread that have lost respect for you than there are me. But I could care less, I feel the way I feel. Rec ball has become the way it is, because of travel ball.

I'm very aware the tournaments are a money making event.

So if you are aware of this, and know that they are not out for the best interest of your kids, than why do you play in them? I drive a car because I have to, talk about apples to oranges.

[TG Coach]

Our MS coach kept a kid this year that never had played baseball before. He is a 14 year old 8th grader. A number of the parents of the younger players who didn't make the team fussed that it wasn't fair or right that he got picked over their son and so on. We have just finished our season and he has developed into an okay player after just 2 months and has a ton of potential. Our goal is to keep him playing this summer and by the time he is a Junior or Senior in HS, watch out!

Now, he could have been stuck on the bench or might not even have made the team but he was picked and now has a real chance if he wants it. The best part is this is a young man with a very poor family life. He will not be able to go to college without an atheltic scholorship and let alone play TB (he can't even afford the rec league). Heck our coaches and MS teachers have to pick him from his house everyday to make sure he gets to school. Someone took a chance on him and hopefully it will pay off big time for him!

The coaching staff saw potential and took a shot. I'd select potential over someone else who's only going to ride the bench anyway.

I also wouldn't get him locked into thinking baseball is going to pay for his college. There are about twenty-five players on a college roster. There are 12.7 rides. He's more likely to get financial aid based on need and academic money. Sports are great but stress academics. There's a lot more money available on the academic side.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE]Do you believe kids are entitled to make a team when they are in their teens approaching high school? Why not just let every kid who feels like it be on the high school varsity. Let's give them all playing time.
When you get to high school or are trying out for a specific team, thats where is stops. If they are joining a league and want to play ball, I could care less how old they are..are you really being serious here?

Kids don't take drugs because they get cut from teams. There are a lot of other activities other than baseball. They take drugs because their parents didn't raise them properly and monitor what they're doing as teens.

Well, I'm glad you have it all figure out. They don't take drugs because they get cut from teams, but because that time is now going to spent doing something else it is real possiblity that it could. What if a kid doesn't have any parents..or that kids parents are dead beats? Is it the kids fault? NAA, just cut him, he'll be alright.


Your right, I'm a jackass because I'm interested in the welfare of the youth in our country. If that makes me a jackass so beit.

Actually I never ran one single Tournament from facilty for this very reason. I wouldn't not partake in that hogwash, and if it meant making less money, oh well.

[dw8man]

I also wouldn't get him locked into thinking baseball is going to pay for his college. There are about twenty-five players on a college roster. There are 12.7 rides. He's more likely to get financial aid based on need and academic money. Sports are great but stress academics. There's a lot more money available on the academic side.

I agree that baseball might not pay for his schooling but it is a possibility and something to keep him out of trouble. He is a good athlete with way too much free time. Because of the family and social situation, having him in sports or other wise occupied will increase his chances of making it through HS.

[TG Coach]

This guy would have never given him the chance. Instead he would have complained that the system forces him to make the team and better yet get a chance to play.

You certainly are Mr. Know It All, aren't you. You know the entire roster based on a few guesses. You're the "ass" in assumption. We have a kid on our team we call RJ Jr. He throws harder than anyone on the team. His control is somewhere between the two dugouts and between the bottom and top of the backstop. No one as ever taught this kid proper pitching mechanics. His body is all over the place. We saw the potential and gave this kid a uniform. The pitching coach works with him on mechanics. He's one of the pitchers that takes the mound when the game is one sided. While the team will fold after 15U and probably not reap the benefit of his improvement, this kid could be very good by high school.

If you were paying attentin earlier instead of just looking to attack you would have noticed the goal is to prepare kids for high school ball. How much would you have charged for three months of pitching lessons to teach him to pitch Mr 20,000 Square Feet? He's getting free lessons on our team.

[MarinersFan51]

man i cant even beleive you guys are arguing about this, HG hit it on the head when he said if you run with a huge lead expect a ball in the ear. Theres an unwritten code in baseball.

just last weekend we played the top team in British Columbia, without a doubt the top team, and youd think theyd have some class seeing as how they blow out a lot of teams and we are playing in what could be the top league in our country. well, i was brought in for damage control we were already down by 10 runs, and the guy on second steals third. and to top that off, the guy at the plate bunts the next pitch. all i could think was what kinda bull **** is this. The next guy wore one in the ribs, and i stared into the dugout and said "keep stealing bases".

stealing, bunting, 3-0 swinging are all unacceptable when you have a huge lead. its like one of the unwritten rules of baseball, and if you break them, be prepared to wear one in the ear.

[deaconspoint]

Pretty intelligent post there MF. You sound like you're on the right track to future stardom for sure.

This thread needs to end.

[TG Coach]

man i cant even beleive you guys are arguing about this, HG hit it on the head when he said if you run with a huge lead expect a ball in the ear. Theres an unwritten code in baseball.

In a normal game environment, yes. In weekend tournament ball, no. Playing to ten runs is normal and expected.

[hiddengem]

If you were paying attentin earlier instead of just looking to attack you would have noticed the goal is to prepare kids for high school ball. How much would you have charged for three months of pitching lessons to teach him to pitch Mr 20,000 Square Feet? He's getting free lessons on our team.


Buddy, I don't need to validate my status as an instructor to you. I've given up thousands of dollars in lesson money to help less fortunate kids. Is giving lessons part of the way I feed my family, your dam right. Is my experience, level of play and knowledge of the game worth every dam penny I charge, your dam right it is.

Don't try and turn this thread around on me, nice try.

[hiddengem]

Pretty intelligent post there MF.

Yes it was.

You sound like you're on the right track to future stardom for sure.
He's on a better track as far as understanding how the game should be played than anybody in this thread.

One day your son might get hurt because of it and then you'll understand. Why not teach the kids to play the game the right way when their young so they don't have to learn the hard way when they get older?

[hiddengem]

I've got my point across in this thread, either you get it or you don't. I'm done.

[Old Sweater]

I've got my point across in this thread, either you get it or you don't. I'm done.

Congrats on your view point HG. Wish all coaches shared them.

[captlid]

I never heard of not swinging at a 3-0 count. Why is this considered unsportsmanlike conduct in higher levels of baseball? :confused:

[bbb3601]

Wow I guess I brought up a touchy subject!?

[scorekeeper]

I never heard of not swinging at a 3-0 count. Why is this considered unsportsmanlike conduct in higher levels of baseball? :confused:

Swinging on a 3-0 count in and of itself isn’t a bad thing at all. It is considered to be a silly thing to do as far as baseball dogma goes because of the high percentage of chance for a free pass.

But swinging at a 3-0 pitch when your team is crushing another team is just not acceptable at any level of baseball.

[captlid]

Swinging on a 3-0 count in and of itself isn’t a bad thing at all. It is considered to be a silly thing to do as far as baseball dogma goes because of the high percentage of chance for a free pass.

But swinging at a 3-0 pitch when your team is crushing another team is just not acceptable at any level of baseball.

But why? What is so wrong about it?

[TG Coach]

But why? What is so wrong about it?

On 3-0 chances are the pitcher is coming dead center. In a close game with a hitter with good judgement at the plate and runners in scoring postion, looking for the fat pitch may be worth the risk. In a one sided game picking on a fat 3-0 pitch to drive is not cool.

Unless it's tournament ball and ends the game :)

[bbb3601]

As most of you know I asked the question about running up the score as a result of our first game. Last night we won 11-1 run rule. After top of 4 we had our 11 runs coach put in a kid who has never pitched before moved all in-fielders. Result we gave up 1 run the kids loved it. our smallest kid give up 3 hits and the run but got 2 k's. So I guess coach got it right last night and the proof came via a compliment by our opponents coach, and parents. Is it always that easy? After reading some of the post's who knows. I can say that when we are on the recieving end I hope our opposing coach plays the game with class. I think someone once told me that how you loose can be just as important as how you win? And by the way guy's the hitting help is really paying off.. he got his first REAL 3 bagger.

[Jake Patterson]

Is it always that easy? After reading some of the post's who knows. I can say that when we are on the recieving end I hope our opposing coach plays the game with class. I think someone once told me that how you loose can be just as important as how you win? And by the way guy's the hitting help is really paying off.. he got his first REAL 3 bagger.

Playing the game with class is always easy.

[Jose Reyes]

Today our team won our JV game by mercy rule 10-0. The rule is 10 run lead after 5 innings and the game is over. We were winning 9-0 and after getting the leadoff man on in the 5th we wanted to get him in to score the game ending run so we had him steal 2nd and the other team was not happy (Players on their team actually yelled from the bench to bean our next hitter in the head. This was an inner city team and I guess they thought it was ok to say that because they said it in Spanish and thought only their team would understand). I think it was perfectly fine to steal a base in this situation even up by 9 runs. What do you think? :shrug:

[TG Coach]

Today our team won our JV game by mercy rule 10-0. The rule is 10 run lead after 5 innings and the game is over. We were winning 9-0 and after getting the leadoff man on in the 5th we wanted to get him in to score the game ending run so we had him steal 2nd and the other team was not happy (Players on their team actually yelled from the bench to bean our next hitter in the head. This was an inner city team and I guess they thought it was ok to say that because they said it in Spanish and thought only their team would understand). I think it was perfectly fine to steal a base in this situation even up by 9 runs. What do you think? :shrug:

It's inapropriate in a league environment. There's nothing to be accomplished. However, if they other team doesn't like it they should work harder to get better.

We didn't have mercies when I was a player. The few times my team got smoked I didn't feel the other team had humiliated us. I felt we had humiliated ourselves by playing poorly. As a coach, If my team gets mercied (happened twice last year with a good team), we're either having a bad day or we didn't come to play. I never blame anything on the other team.

[ralanprod]

My son is playing 8yo coach pitch this season. He is actually the only 8yo on the team, which is mainly kids just up from t-ball. Rough year record wise, but he is having fun being the "team leader".

In the league there are 2 dominating teams:

One is managed by a former major league pitcher, one by your typical dad.

With a big lead in our game, the former major leaguer sat his starters, wouldn't let his kids take more than a double, and held them on errors. The parents cheered good plays for both teams.

When he had the big lead, the dad kept the same infielders, intentionally had his runners try to stretch hits as far as possible, and argued every petty call with the ump. The parents were booing every time one of there kids made an out and giving the ump tons of razzing.

In the end, the scores were about the same - but the way the kids felt was completely different.

The only small justice was seeing the major leaguers team crush the dad's team.

(Oh, and despite the wishes of myself and most other parents - he still pulled his starters once he had a big lead.)

It's nice to see a coach (and his team and parents) that can win big, but still do it with a little class.

I know I'm only talking 8yo here, but there is still a lesson to be learned.

[captlid]

1. if the other team's pitcher cant throw a strike to save their lives?
2. A catcher who cant throw or catch?
3. A specific fielder that cant field their position, such as a third baseman bobbling every ball hit to them?

Would you take advantage of these weaknesses repeatedly? When is it appropriate to stop?

Amateur ball....

I remember a high school game that I was in. Was the second inning and coach called for the steal sign. I think we were up by about eight runs at that point. Was at first base and did not go when the sign was called. When I get back into the dugout the coach asks me why I did not steal second. Told him that the other team's catcher can't catch or throw and thought it would absolutely pathetic to pull a straight steal on them. He did not say a thing.

[Jake Patterson]

With a big lead in our game, the former major leaguer sat his starters, wouldn't let his kids take more than a double, and held them on errors. The parents cheered good plays for both teams.

When he had the big lead, the dad kept the same infielders, intentionally had his runners try to stretch hits as far as possible, and argued every petty call with the ump. The parents were booing every time one of there kids made an out and giving the ump tons of razzing.


This is why HG (And every former pro I have ever spoken with)takes this stand. Maybe they are able to keep things in better perspective than the foolish dad living through their children. Good for the former pro, job well done.

Similar story - Our middle school who tries to play everyone won their championship shutting down the school whose coach openly boasted about his life-time MS record. Who cares???

[Jake Patterson]

I know I'm only talking 8yo here, but there is still a lesson to be learned.

Gave a pitching class to a group of eight year olds last night... God Bless all coaches of eight year olds. My hat remains off to you..

[Ursa Major]

HiddenGem said: I've got my point across in this thread, either you get it or you don't. I'm done.

I think HiddenGem just "mercied" TG Coach . . . :shhh:

Coach, you've said some pretty asinine things here and on Eteamz, but calling HG a jackass pretty much tops the list. If you knew a tenth of the things he's done for others, even you would realize what an idiotic thing that was to say. And, letting your temper get the best of you tells me volumes about what kind of coach we can expect you'd be when the merde hits the fan.

But, I'll let the marketplace of ideas rule here. Anyone want to line up behind TG Coach? Show of hands?

[jima]

I'm not going to be in TG's corner, but I feel his pain. We all want what's best for our kids, sometimes to their detriment. Any of us who look at youth baseball today must admit that there is a problem. What I got from HG is that tournament baseball is doing more harm mentally and physically to our kids than it is helping them prepare for H.S. I think he may be right. This year, I took my son off a tournament team and placed him on Sunday double header travel team. My primary reason was that I was concerned that playing 4 to 6 games every weekend was burning him out. I want him to still be excited about playing ball in H.S.

[Jake Patterson]

What I got from HG is that tournament baseball is doing more harm mentally and physically to our kids than it is helping them prepare for H.S. I think he may be right. This year, I took my son off a tournament team and placed him on Sunday double header travel team. My primary reason was that I was concerned that playing 4 to 6 games every weekend was burning him out. I want him to still be excited about playing ball in H.S.

What I gleened from him and other pros I have spoken with on this topic is that - The activity we call baseball is just a game when we compare what we do with our children to what he does as a pro.

[merdon133]

How do you figure?? How is not embarrasing a team on the field an insult to them? I just hope you don't come across a coach that feels the way I do or somebody might pay if you deliberately show their team up. And that WILL be the last time you do it. Its not rocket science people.


You might beat my team by 20 runs thats not what I'm concerned about. Its how you do that concerns me. If you are beating me by 8-10 runs at any point and you steal, bunt or swing at a pitch 3-0 we are going to have problems.
If I ever coach at the youth level, I may not be the winningest coach around but my kids will know how to play them the right way and because of it, be much more prepared for the high school, college and eventually the pro level. If as a youth coach all your concerned about is winning that stupid tournament trophy, you need to check yourself.


Why is it the coaches that are teaching the game the ones who always get the bad deal on this? I spend just as much time as they do, we went to the same draft(which should mean teams are equal if the other coaches did their homework), but because I can get my kids playing better, learning more and leaving it on the ball field, I'm concidered the jerk! This is crazy why aren't the parents getting on a coach who is getting beat and say what the hell.

If I taught my kids to back down then I am not preparing them for the future, be it baseball or life. I understand to move players around, new pitchers, no pushing for 3rd on a bad throw to the pitcher or stealing on every pass ball to home.

So are teaching our kids "well you got to raises this year, why not let the other guys catch up" or are we teaching get what you can because nothing in life will be giving to you?

These are kids learning life through baseball!

[Jake Patterson]

Why is it the coaches that are teaching the game the ones who always get the bad deal on this? I spend just as much time as they do, we went to the same draft(which should mean teams are equal if the other coaches did their homework), but because I can get my kids playing better, learning more and leaving it on the ball field, I'm concidered the jerk! This is crazy why aren't the parents getting on a coach who is getting beat and say what the hell.

If I taught my kids to back down then I am not preparing them for the future, be it baseball or life. I understand to move players around, new pitchers, no pushing for 3rd on a bad throw to the pitcher or stealing on every pass ball to home.

So are teaching our kids "well you got to raises this year, why not let the other guys catch up" or are we teaching get what you can because nothing in life will be giving to you?

These are kids learning life through baseball!

Merdon I think you are really missing the point.

First of all you cannot control whether or not you win or lose the game, you can only control how you coach, what you teach and to some degree how your team plays.

HG is not anti-winning, even by 20 runs. He's about how you win! We had a game the other night and won by a good margin. I don't backed down rather I play the bench, try people in different positions, pitch newer players, yank the starters, etc... The other coach came to me after the game shook my hand and told me he appreciate the fact I "play everyone on the bench, even the bus driver." He is a great coach who just does not have the talent he has had in the past, that's the way it goes, whether you draft or not. Watching a child for five minutes, does little to identify his real tealents.

Now there is something to be said about better coaching getting the most from the players, but like players coaching skills and knowledge vary greatly, especially in organizations like LL. When you compare yourself and your skills as a coach against other coaches the game becomes about you and not the kids. If you are clearly better in coaching youth athletics offer to help others. Become part of a training committee. Start something to make baseball better for all the players, not just yours. You'll be surprised how many coaches will be willing to listen.

The perfect youth game is a 2-1 game where every player plays the same amount of time. Seldom possible, but working toward that has always been a personal goal.

[jima]

Hey, Casey Stengel, let the parent's prepare the kid for life...baseball is a game, not your tool to show kids how life is to be played.

[Drill]

There is more to life than baseball.

There is the ethical, moral and dare I say the spiritual differences between good and evil.

You can coach the way you want to. When you drive a steak into a young person inter being/soul you are not teaching anything that is worth while. If the young man or women is smart enough to be on your team they know the difference between right/wrong and will respect you in the way that you act as a person and coach.

Remember it is your job to teach the game of baseball, if you want to be there moral/ethical and spiritual advisor I would suggest a different occupation or hobby.

respectfully yours,

drill

[Ursa Major]

I think a few people are setting up false dilemmas, here. You can be successful but still play the game right. Remember, we started talking only about whether you should keep the pedal to the metal in a game you'd already won, right?

First false dilemma: You have to teach kids about the harsh rules of life and achieving victory, or you instead are teaching them that they don't have to try, because they'll get their playing time and trophy anyway. (Or, as Merdon put it, "teach[ing to] get what you can because nothing in life will be giving to you" [sic].)

Well, if one of your "harsh rules of life" is that you shouldn't think of the ultimate, long term success of the team, I don't want your players ultimately working for my company. Do 12 year old kids need to learn about backstabbing and castle politics?

I think we need to teach first to work hard individually and as a team to achieve a common goal, as this is what makes baseball fun for kids at a more mature level than simply hitting a ball hard (or, worse, thinking that "fun" is screwing around at practice or a game without any self-discipline). The most beautiful moments in coaching are where the kids -- not the coaches -- help instruct and encourage a weaker player to the point where he develops the skills and confidence to go out and do something that contributes to the team's success, and gets his team's adulation in doing so. This goal of encouraging teamwork skills is not aided by having your best player get an extra at-bat (at the expense of a newer player) against a lousy opposing pitcher just so he can juice up his batting average.

Merdon, you say, "... because I can get my kids playing better, learning more and leaving it on the ball field, I'm concidered the jerk!" If you truly can look yourself in the mirror and say that's the only reason that people consider you a jerk, than just blow it off. There are people in life who resent the success of others and try to demean them because it's an excuse for their own failures. Don't let them get under your skin.

People of quality should not feel that way. In our 11/12 y/o league this year, one team is absolutely dominating the rest, winning by an average of six runs a game. Because of the change in the age cutoff, their team by coincidence has a number of third year players (who fell within the May to July range allowing them to come back), and a lot of their kids just got a ton of growth in the last year -- they're fast and big. But, they're nice kids and they hustle their tails off and they move their players around and occasionally pitch their weaker players (although they really only have one of those). And while I've heard others lament a situation that gives them an advantage, I haven't heard a peep of resentment against their coach. In fact, I've jokingly asked him to instruct his kids to go out and kick puppies in public so we can come up with a reason to dislike them.

I mean, c'mon folks. I think one of the primo values to us of having someone like HiddenGem on the board or to hear stories of the former major leaguer's LL team whomp on that of the obsessed Dad is that you can be wildly successful in baseball beyond your dreams while still playing the game "right".

Second false dilemma: "Remember it is your job to teach the game of baseball, if you want to be there moral/ethical and spiritual advisor I would suggest a different occupation or hobby." (Courtesy of Drill.)

I teach what baseball helps to impart as a life lesson. Some of it is implicit in teaching the mechanics of baseball -- e.g., if you anticipate a situation and prepare for it, you'll make a play that will help your team win and give you satisfaction. More of it comes from direct lessons:
* "encourage your teammates,"
* "don't cheat [or do something that's chicken***t]",
* "don't blame others (such as umpires or unfair pitchers) or come up with excuses for not succeeding -- just move on and vow to do what you need to do in order to do it better next time", etc.

If there's not a moral core or compass operating behind what you do, what's to stop you from simply playing to win each time? And, if that's the case, I'd rather not have you wasting my son's time by coaching him, thank you.

I don't need to "teach" moral or religious values to get the point across to these kids. Baseball -- if taught the way it was handed down to me and countless others over the past 160 years or so -- does it all by itself, thank you.

[Jake Patterson]

Hey, Casey Stengel, let the parent's prepare the kid for life...baseball is a game, not your tool to show kids how life is to be played.


Jim - to whom is this directed?

[Jake Patterson]

I think a few people are setting up false dilemmas, here. You can be successful but still play the game right. Remember, we started talking only about whether you should keep the pedal to the metal in a game you'd already won, right?

First false dilemma: You have to teach kids about the harsh rules of life and achieving victory, or you instead are teaching them that they don't have to try, because they'll get their playing time and trophy anyway. (Or, as Merdon put it, "teach[ing to] get what you can because nothing in life will be giving to you" [sic].)

I think we need to teach first to work hard individually and as a team to achieve a common goal, as this is what makes baseball fun at a more mature level. The most beautiful moments in coaching are where the kids -- not the coaches -- help instruct and encourage a weaker player to the point where he develops the skills and confidence to go out and do something that contributes to the team's success, and gets his team's adulation in doing so. This goal of encouraging teamwork skills is not aided by having your best player get an extra at-bat (at the expense of a newer player) against a lousy opposing pitcher just so he can juice up his batting average.

Merdon, you say, "... because I can get my kids playing better, learning more and leaving it on the ball field, I'm concidered the jerk!" If you truly can look yourself in the mirror and say that's the only reason that people consider you a jerk, than just blow it off. There are people in life who resent the success of others and try to demean them because it's an excuse for their own failures. Don't let them get under your skin.

People of quality should not feel that way. In our 11/12 y/o league this year, one team is absolutely dominating the rest, winning by an average of six runs a game. Because of the change in the age cutoff, their team by coincidence has a number of third year players (who fell within the May to July range allowing them to come back), and a lot of their kids just got a ton of growth in the last year -- they're fast and big. But, they're nice kids and they hustle their tails off and they move their players around and occasionally pitch their weaker players (although they really only have one of those). And while I've heard others lament a situation that gives them an advantage, I haven't heard a peep of resentment against their coach. In fact, I've jokingly asked him to instruct his kids to go out and kick puppies in public so we can come up with a reason to dislike them.

I mean, c'mon folks. I think one of the primo values to us of having someone like HiddenGem on the board or to hear stories of the former major leaguer's LL team whomp on that of the obsessed Dad is that you can be wildly successful in baseball beyond your dreams while still playing the game "right".

Second false dilemma: "Remember it is your job to teach the game of baseball, if you want to be there moral/ethical and spiritual advisor I would suggest a different occupation or hobby." (Courtesy of Drill.) I teach what baseball helps to impart as a life lesson. Some of it is implicit in teaching the mechanics of baseball -- e.g., if you anticipate a situation and prepare for it, you'll make a play that will help your team win and give you satisfaction. More of it comes from direct lessons:
* "encourage your teammates,"
* "don't cheat [or do something that's chicken***t]",
* "don't blame others (such as umpires or unfair pitchers) or come up with excuses for not succeeding -- just move on and vow to do what you need to do in order to do it better next time", etc.

If there's not a moral core or compass operating behind what you do, what's to stop you from simply playing to win each time? And, if that's the case, I'd rather not have you wasting my son's time by coaching him, thank you.

I don't need to "teach" moral or religious values to get the point across to these kids. Baseball -- if taught the way it was handed down to me and countless others over the past 160 years or so -- does it all by itself, thank you.


Ursa - Good Post

[Drill]

I don't need to "teach" moral or religious values to get the point across to these kids. Baseball -- if taught the way it was handed down to me and countless others over the past 160 years or so -- does it all by itself, thank you.

No, baseball does not do it all by itself. God has been around a little longer than baseball.

respectfully yours,

drill

[Ursa Major]

Drill replied: No, baseball does not do it all by itself. God has been around a little longer than baseball.Good point, although I have it on good authority that She is a baseball fan. :cap:

But, I was reinforcing your point that we shouldn't be trying to be using our time with the kids to impart some separate moral or social values. None of mine have any idea what religion I am. But, I just teach what I learned through baseball and steer clear of the rest -- no pre-game prayers and the like. That's for the parents.

Baseball offers a pretty failsafe set of guidelines for "teaching" the limited range of values that it's appropriate for me to instill in kids, as long as I adhere to one additional set of values -- "it's not about me, it's about them".

[jima]

Jake, my sarcasm was directed at Meddon. I'm sorry, but I lose patience with that kind of attitude when coaching kids. Ursa, great post...concur with you and Drill. This stuff is important to discuss...there is a code of baseball...some of it pretty hard stuff. I remember when I was a soph in H.S. varsity (stoneage), my team was up by 10 towards the end of the game...I got a single...I saw that the pitcher wasn't really holding me on so I stole 2nd and then 3rd. When I got to 3rd my coach asked my what the hell I was doing? He explained the facts of life to me....I clearly had embarrassed him...it was a baseball lesson I never forgot. jima

[TG Coach]

I think HiddenGem just "mercied" TG Coach . . . :shhh:

Coach, you've said some pretty asinine things here and on Eteamz, but calling HG a jackass pretty much tops the list. If you knew a tenth of the things he's done for others, even you would realize what an idiotic thing that was to say. And, letting your temper get the best of you tells me volumes about what kind of coach we can expect you'd be when the merde hits the fan.

But, I'll let the marketplace of ideas rule here. Anyone want to line up behind TG Coach? Show of hands?

I'm in complete agreement with him in a normal game. I'm in complete disagreement when it's tournament ball. As for the rest he was the one on the attack making the accusations based on assumptions that were completely inaccurate. Had he not started in I would not have responded the way I did.

I was surprised at the personal attack and innuendo. I thought that behavior was frowned on here. When I discovered it wasn't I responded in kind. If you want to get personal I can give you more of the same, *ssh*l*. You have never seen me coach. You're full of sh**. You can't tell the difference whether a team I'm coaching is winning or losing. I maintain my composure. I'm always teaching.

Jake I was under the impression this site wasn't this way. But if people want to go into personal attack mode because they disagree, I'll dish it right back.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm in complete disagreement when it's tournament ball.
While Tournament ball is more competative, kid ball is kid ball.

Jake I was under the impression this site wasn't this way. But if people want to go into personal attack mode because they disagree, I'll dish it right back.

It's not.

[TG Coach]

I'm not going to be in TG's corner, but I feel his pain. We all want what's best for our kids, sometimes to their detriment.

I'm not a big fan of tournament ball. But it's what we have. Rec ball is loaded with kids who can't throw or catch. The local Jr Legion team has run off several good players to tournament ball by making kids sit and pay their dues for two years until they turn fifteen. Why sit and not play for two years leading up to frosh year of high school? Kids aren't allowed to play school fall sports since the team practices four days a week in the fall at 4:30pm. It doesn't make sense. And my son plays football. We found an alternative in tournament ball.

[TG Coach]

While Tournament ball is more competative, kid ball is kid ball.

The kids in rec ball can't catch a routine fly ball. A lot of them can't hit the ball out of the infield in the air. That level of play doesn't not prepare a kid for high school ball. Once a kid can handle the big field he should be playing against decent competition.

[Jake Patterson]

Once a kid can handle the big field he should be playing against decent competition.
Why? At 13 they're still kids... Why should we put these types of conditions on the game. How does that help the players or the game?

PS: Check your PM's

[TG Coach]

Why? At 13 they're still kids... Why should we put these types of conditions on the game. How does that help the players or the game?

PS: Check your PM's

13U is only two years removed from high school ball. It's time to be challenged if a player can handle it.

[jima]

TG - I'm sure that you're aware that there are other options for playing good quality teams other than tournament ball. In most metropolitan areas, there's a whole network of coaches that have put together travel teams that like to play double headers on either Sat or Sunday afternoons. These games don't have the buzz or the elite feel of a aau/delmarva, moat or a vsc tournament but the kids still get the benefit of the competition...a side benefit is that if you don't like the opposing coach, etc., you don't have to schedule them again. I could be wrong (assumption), but my guess is with the coaching staff, etc., you have assembled, that tournament ball is not the only alternative, but the one you have chosen for your team. jima

[TG Coach]

TG - I'm sure that you're aware that there are other options for playing good quality teams other than tournament ball. In most metropolitan areas, there's a whole network of coaches that have put together travel teams that like to play double headers on either Sat or Sunday afternoons. These games don't have the buzz or the elite feel of a aau/delmarva, moat or a vsc tournament but the kids still get the benefit of the competition...a side benefit is that if you don't like the opposing coach, etc., you don't have to schedule them again. I could be wrong (assumption), but my guess is with the coaching staff, etc., you have assembled, that tournament ball is not the only alternative, but the one you have chosen for your team. jima

Even the travel doubleheader league is weak. A team of our quality is in the league and spanking everyone. I'd rather be tested and lose to quality competition than spank weak competition on a regular basis. But we don't play tournaments every weekend. We only do two a month. We're not concerned with power points and rankings. On the other two weekends we schedule doubleheaders against other quality travel teams in our age group not playing that weekend or teams a year or two older.

What surprises me is the number of kids who sling the ball throwing and can't catch a fly ball at fourteen. I watched four routine flies dropped or not caught in my son's middle school game this week. When I was this age I played Babe Ruth which is rec ball. Even the bottom end of the roster had adequate skills.

The difference as I see it is in my son's generation every kid makes the highest level without putting in any work. It's an entitlement so we don't hurt their feelings. A lot of the kids don't practice on their own. They aren't motivated to be the best they can be. They may even pull a no-show on game day if they don't feel like playing.

In my generation kids had to make teams or play in a lower level against other less skilled players. When I played LL kids weren't guaranteed making majors. There was farms for the less talented and unmotivated. In my early teens the best kids played Babe Ruth ball. The rest played LL Juniors. LL even had their tryouts after the Babe Ruth cuts. To ensure making a BR team a kid has to be motivated to work hard to become a better player.

After my son's middle school game the other day I grabbed the ball bag and my son and one of his teammates (also a travel teammate) hit the field for one hundred grounders each and then some BP. One of their teammates exclaimed, "I can't believe your dad is making you practice after a game." They told him they asked for this a few days ago. They weren't comfortable in the field with the lack of practice outdoors due to the bad weather this spring.

The middle school coach heard the exchange. He told the surprised kid that's why they lead and he misses flyballs. I asked the kid if he wanted me to hit him one hundred flies. He declined. This kid plays rec ball. He's fourteen, plays center and can't judge a flyball.

[Jake Patterson]

13U is only two years removed from high school ball. It's time to be challenged if a player can handle it.

If you look at the possible developmental steps in youth ball (and I may not quite have all these right) you have:


Tee Ball
8U TB
Minor League
10U Travel ball
Little League
Little League All-stars
12U TB
Junior League
Junior League All Stars
MS
AAU
Senior League
Senior League All-stars
Junior Legion
Freshman Ball
JV HS
HS
Legion Ball
College
Elite summer college leagues i.e. Cape Cod
Independent pro leagues
Rookie Ball
Minor Leagues
Pro


As we move up the funnel effect takes effect. I wish I had the real numbers, but the ones I have are pretty close. there are 3,000,000 Little Leaguers, probably another 2,000,000 playing other organized leagues so we have 5,000,000 players feeding into 750 jobs at the very best level. You have a greater chance at being an airline pilot than you do a high level ball player. Pre-HS keep it in perspective.

[TG Coach]

As we move up the funnel effect takes effect. I wish I had the real numbers, but the ones I have are pretty close. there are 3,000,000 Little Leaguers, probably another 2,000,000 playing other organized leagues so we have 5,000,000 players feeding into 750 jobs at the very best level. You have a greater chance at being an airline pilot than you do a high level ball player. Pre-HS keep it in perspective.

I don't understand why you keep pounding this drum. The sound is getting monotonous. My son's focus is on playing high school ball. He'll be in high school next year. Where's the lack of perspective?

He has a dad, grandfather, two uncles and a great grandfather who played college ball. Another grandfather played college football. He has a sister and a mother who played college softball. While his focus is on playing high school ball, his ultimate goal is to play college ball. Given the family tree and gene pool, as a kid, do you think his goal lacks perspective? Here's what I tell him when he mentions college ball: Work hard through high school ball and have a scout tell you you're good enough. No one else's opinion matters. While you're doing this, keep getting all A's so you have options.

I've been there and done it. Where's the lack of perspective?

[bbb3601]

The difference as I see it is in my son's generation every kid makes the highest level without putting in any work. It's an entitlement so we don't hurt their feelings. A lot of the kids don't practice on their own. They aren't motivated to be the best they can be. They may even pull a no-show on game day if they don't feel like playing.



I see this often in my city. In some areas in columbus ohio the travel teams are so prevelent that rec ball is fading away because of talent level. A friend told me last year (rec ball) he had to dissolve his team because no kid (other than his) could throw the ball from the mound to home plate!!!! So many parents in my state think just because johnny makes a travel team that he can play. Could this be some of the problem.running up the score....can it always be helped? Mind you my kid is only 9, but were we live he could make most u11 teams.USSSA.

[Jake Patterson]

Here's what I tell him when he mentions college ball: Work hard through high school ball and have a scout tell you you're good enough. No one else's opinion matters. While you're doing this, keep getting all A's so you have options.

I've been there and done it. Where's the lack of perspective?

This sounds fine. The statement was directed at the issue in general.

[bbb3601]

To continue the other day I was talking to another coach about the 'state' of LL ball. he called it suburb ball and soccer ball. I guess my next question is ok I know rec is not an option for my kid. travel ball is watered down. like i said earlier we have about 35 u9 teams in a 40 mile radius. The leagues like usssa. should they start to govern how many teams or quality or ages, hell this year they started coach pitch travel!! The coach i mentioned the other day said some of the older established travel teams are sick of the untrained suburb ball teams ruining what was supposed to be a competitive leagur for select kids who are serious about baseball............not parents. HE SAID WHEN EVER HE GETS A TEAM THAT DAD STARTED SO HE CAN CALL THE SHOTS FOR HIS SON HE TRIES TO BEAT THEM AS BAD AS POSSIBLE. Is travel baseball like this in your city?

[hiddengem]

What surprises me is the number of kids who sling the ball throwing and can't catch a fly ball at fourteen. I watched four routine flies dropped or not caught in my son's middle school game this week.

I watched a couple routine fly balls dropped in the big leagues last week and a few more at AAA, what is your point? I also witnessed some pretty bad throws as well. I guess they aren't motivated, maybe they should practice more.


This kid plays rec ball. He's fourteen, plays center and can't judge a flyball.

Don't worry, while you continue to stroke your ego daily by focusing on the less athletic kids who aren't as gifted as yours and maybe don't quite have the drive that yours do, your kids sill have the .01% chance of playing in the big leagues and only slightly higher of playing out of high school.

I find it hard to belive that a man of your age and experience that you claim, could stoop to such low levels to attempt make yourself and your playes look better.

But then again, my experience with people like you is that you although on the outside they may appear to have everything going, on the inside the self esteem just isn't there so its necessary to talk about themselves all the time, and put others down to make them look better. Out of all the posts I've read from you on here and at Eteamz, this appears to be pretty accurate.

I wish you the best and hope one day you'll be able to set aside your ego and understand that your way of thinking is doing much much more to harm our youth leagues and its young men than it ever will to benefit them. Because when its all said and done, the kids that are going to remember you are the ones that didn't have much going, maybe didn't have the resources to practice as much as yours do, yet you took the time to take an interest in their well being as a human being and helped to shape them as a young man.

As of right now, you'll just focus on the fact that at the age of 14 they aren't able to judge a fly ball to center and never developed and athletic way to throw the ball. Way to go coach.

By the way, I'm really happy that your son's dad his dad, his mom and sisters and everybody else played college ball. My dad played hockey up in Wisconsin when he was younger and my grandpa played for a local baseball team in the farm town he grew up in.

[Jake Patterson]

Unfortunately - we have digressed.

BBF has policy against personal attacks.

I deleted several posts. We may have gone as far as we can with this particular topic. Because I feel this is one of the most important topics in youth ball I will leave the thread, but if it digresses further - further action will occur.

I hope we can get this back on track...

[TG Coach]

Unfortunately - we have digressed.

BBF has policy against personal attacks.

I deleted several posts. We may have gone as far as we can with this particular topic. Because I feel this is one of the most important topics in youth ball I will leave the thread, but if it digresses further - further action will occur.

I hope we can get this back on track...

Done properly there's an opportunity to share different views.

HIDDEN,

If you would like to ask my view of youth baseball and development in a civil manner without assumptions, innuendo and personal attack, I don't have a problem responding. It would allow others to see two points of view. You would probably be surprised how much we agree. As I see it, the two points of contention are one sided tournament games and development leading into high school.

What's interesting is you're an inbetweener from the aspect of how things were done when I coached Babe Ruth ball in the early 80's and when I started again in the mid 90's with 7/8's. I believe your youth experience falls completely between these two experiences.

I'll start with my definition of winning (I've coached from 7/8 rec to 18U/G ASA travel). Winning is how a player prepares for and approaches a game. Preparation is the practice. Preparation is being on time and showing up with all your equipment. Approach is how they carry themselves in the game. At whatever level I tell the players if they practice hard, come to play and put forth their best effort the score takes care of itself. Sometimes teams win because they were the best team that day. Sometimes teams win because they were luckier that day. But if a player can leave the park knowing they played as hard as they could and supported their teammates they played as winners.

In bits and pieces I've stated how things were when I played versus now. I'd be willing so summarize and compare it should you choose to pursue the conversation. What I did notice is a lot changed in the time I took off between coaching other kids and my own.

[Utility07]

I am currently coaching high school ball, and my dad has coached high school ball for over 30 years. My brother and uncle also coach high school ball. When its obvious the game is in hand(That doesnt necessarily mean 10, it just means anything other than a complete collapse and you will win) You dont run, you dont bunt, and all the bench players enter the game, with the possible exception of the starting pitcher, as he needs to get his work in. If bench players are so bad they shouldnt be playing in a blowout, there was no reason to take them in the first place.

Stealing and bunting and other things just to get to crush the other team is dumb, and its sending the wrong message. ESPECIALLY if you arent concerned about rankings/regional seeding.

[Jake Patterson]

I am currently coaching high school ball, and my dad has coached high school ball for over 30 years. My brother and uncle also coach high school ball.

One of the problems I saw when coaching HS was those coaches trying to make a name for themselves either through their life-time records or with a good player being followed by the papers and scouted by colleges.

[Jake Patterson]

Here's a quote from Curt Schilling's site found at www.38pitches.com

I think it appropriate to this thread. Enjoy.

Q-How do you know when a kid has enough talent go far with Baseball?

A-I think that falls on the ‘kid’ as much as it does the parents. Parents view their childrens athletic ability through very rosy glasses. I’ve been around kids, coached kids and worked with kids who’s parents would tell me that their son is a surefire major leaguer if he ‘keeps it up’ and I’m sitting there watching a kid who isn’t going to make his high school team. The numbers are staggering, it used to be 1 in every 100,000 kids who plays organized baseball gets drafted. Then you look at the volume of kids drafted and how few of them make it to the major leagues and it can be daunting. If you’re working with your kids in sports for them to become ‘pro’s’ then I think you’re making a huge mistake. You won’t get them there, they will. However if you have your kids playing sports to learn the real lessons they teach, sportsmanship, camaraderie, respect, how to count on teammates and be counted on, how to handle winning and losing, all the truly important life lessons then I think you’re doing the right thing. I could care less if any of my kids become ‘pro’s’, I just want them to have a passion for whatever it is they do, and be as good as they can be, trying to be the best.

[TG Coach]

Here's a quote from Curt Schilling's site found at www.38pitches.com

I think it appropriate to this thread. Enjoy.

Q-How do you know when a kid has enough talent go far with Baseball?

A-I think that falls on the ‘kid’ as much as it does the parents. Parents view their childrens athletic ability through very rosy glasses. I’ve been around kids, coached kids and worked with kids who’s parents would tell me that their son is a surefire major leaguer if he ‘keeps it up’ and I’m sitting there watching a kid who isn’t going to make his high school team. The numbers are staggering, it used to be 1 in every 100,000 kids who plays organized baseball gets drafted. Then you look at the volume of kids drafted and how few of them make it to the major leagues and it can be daunting. If you’re working with your kids in sports for them to become ‘pro’s’ then I think you’re making a huge mistake. You won’t get them there, they will. However if you have your kids playing sports to learn the real lessons they teach, sportsmanship, camaraderie, respect, how to count on teammates and be counted on, how to handle winning and losing, all the truly important life lessons then I think you’re doing the right thing. I could care less if any of my kids become ‘pro’s’, I just want them to have a passion for whatever it is they do, and be as good as they can be, trying to be the best.

When did this thread become about turning pro. I thought it's about one sided games. But out of curiosity, what's your definition of going far? I don't view high school as going far. Maybe someone else does.

Even playing college ball can be some D3 that doesn't recruit, has a part time coach and doesn't care if the team goes 0-35. An average high school player can walk on and make a team like this. I think our local high school team could beat the local JuCo. The JuCo takes what shows up. My son and I watched a few innings of one game. I looked like a low classification/small school, high school game.

[hiddengem]

. I'd be willing so summarize and compare it should you choose to pursue the conversation.


Naa, its ok, I'm not interested. My goal in responding to this thread was to hopefully send a positive message to the "lurkers" that might be following this thread. Judging by personal responses I've recieved I'd say alot was learned from both you and I.

[tominct]

When did this thread become about turning pro. I thought it's about one sided games. But out of curiosity, what's your definition of going far? I don't view high school as going far.

Oh! But it is!

Figure this...Our high a school draws from 3 towns. Right now they have 5 seniors starting, 4 juniors. So of all the kids in the THREE towns that are playing LL, say 300 or so, if not more, lets say 100 or so in each grade, 4 or 5 are playing for the HS varsity. That's 4% or 5%!

Yes, playing High School in going far, without question.

How many dress is another question. But if YOU expect your son to play college ball, well then we should assume he will have to start for his varsity by his junior year, although I have seen kids play college who never started for the their HS team.

That is keeping it in perspective.

Tom

[hiddengem]

Here's what I tell him when he mentions college ball: Work hard through high school ball and have a scout tell you you're good enough. No one else's opinion matters.
I've been there and done it. Where's the lack of perspective?

I'm questioning this advice, first off they don't have scouts for college. They have assistant coaches that travel around, look for talent and report back to the head coach.

Second, what if a scout tells your kid he's not good enough? Should he just quit?, because as you say it "No one else's opinion matters". I once had a scout tell me I wasn't big enough and didn't have the tools to play pro ball, that I should just pass it up, get my degree and move on. I'm sure glad I didn't take that scouts advice.

[digglahhh]

TG Coach,

I've been reading this thread since the beginning. It seems as if you are very fond of talking about yourself, your son and the quality of your teams. You claim that you are very secure in yourself and that you are interested in teaching and maintaining humility. The bulk of your posts contradict that, so you can't blame those who take your self-professed values with a grain of salt.

Without trying to be derisive, I'd state that, frankly, nobody cares about how good your team is or how good your son is. That is not because nobody is interested, but rather because it is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. The code of playing and winning the right way, with respect and honor, does not change at any level, Major League Baseball included.

I understand that your original contention was in regard to the rules of tournament ball. Your point was basically a logistical one. The counterpoint, that you never really acknowledged is that if you are prioritize taking advantage of the rules of tourney ball over the general code of respect in the game, you are taking yourself too seriously. The tenets of class and respect don't change because an innings limit is imposed on your pitchers. The "nature" of tourney ball, as an argument, is a red herring.

[hiddengem]

TG Coach,

I've been reading this thread since the beginning. It seems as if you are very fond of talking about yourself, your son and the quality of your teams. You claim that you are very secure in yourself and that you are interested in teaching and maintaining humility. The bulk of your posts contradict that, so you can't blame those who take your self-professed values with a grain of salt.

Without trying to be derisive, I'd state that, frankly, nobody cares about how good your team is or how good your son is. That is not because nobody is interested, but rather because it is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. The code of playing and winning the right way, with respect and honor, does not change at any level, Major League Baseball included.

I understand that your original contention was in regard to the rules of tournament ball. Your point was basically a logistical one. The counterpoint, that you never really acknowledged is that if you are prioritize taking advantage of the rules of tourney ball over the general code of respect in the game, you are taking yourself too seriously. The tenets of class and respect don't change because an innings limit is imposed on your pitchers. The "nature" of tourney ball, as an argument, is a red herring.


Outstanding.

[Jake Patterson]

TG Coach,

I've been reading this thread since the beginning. It seems as if you are very fond of talking about yourself, your son and the quality of your teams. You claim that you are very secure in yourself and that you are interested in teaching and maintaining humility. The bulk of your posts contradict that, so you can't blame those who take your self-professed values with a grain of salt.

Without trying to be derisive, I'd state that, frankly, nobody cares about how good your team is or how good your son is. That is not because nobody is interested, but rather because it is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. The code of playing and winning the right way, with respect and honor, does not change at any level, Major League Baseball included.

I understand that your original contention was in regard to the rules of tournament ball. Your point was basically a logistical one. The counterpoint, that you never really acknowledged is that if you are prioritize taking advantage of the rules of tourney ball over the general code of respect in the game, you are taking yourself too seriously. The tenets of class and respect don't change because an innings limit is imposed on your pitchers. The "nature" of tourney ball, as an argument, is a red herring.
Digs good post

[TG Coach]

TG Coach,

I've been reading this thread since the beginning. It seems as if you are very fond of talking about yourself, your son and the quality of your teams. You claim that you are very secure in yourself and that you are interested in teaching and maintaining humility. The bulk of your posts contradict that, so you can't blame those who take your self-professed values with a grain of salt.

Without trying to be derisive, I'd state that, frankly, nobody cares about how good your team is or how good your son is. That is not because nobody is interested, but rather because it is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. The code of playing and winning the right way, with respect and honor, does not change at any level, Major League Baseball included.

I understand that your original contention was in regard to the rules of tournament ball. Your point was basically a logistical one. The counterpoint, that you never really acknowledged is that if you are prioritize taking advantage of the rules of tourney ball over the general code of respect in the game, you are taking yourself too seriously. The tenets of class and respect don't change because an innings limit is imposed on your pitchers. The "nature" of tourney ball, as an argument, is a red herring.

My son didn't have a game today. We went to watch some of his friends play. The opposing team ran the bases aggressively to get the mercy. No one got upset. When one of the dads said something after the game, the coach told him that's how tournament ball is played. I've never seen an experienced tournament coach get upset when the other team goes for the knockout.

Any reference to the team and my son is not intended to be bragging. It's a point of reference to a situation. How would it be bragging when I referenced our team was mercied twice last year? It was a point of reference.

The bottom line is there's a difference of opinion on handling big leads in tournament ball. There's no reason for it to get personal.

[scorekeeper]

The “mercy rule” as far as I know, is only used in HS and below. I’ve seen some pretty big college blowouts, and quite a few pro blowouts, and aside from the “respect” factor, I can’t conceive of anything but an absolute moron for a coach/manager, who’d have his guys goin’ full tilt when the game was all but decided.

I think some of y’all aren’t seeing the players as valuable ASSETS, which is exactly what they are, because you don’t have anything riding on whether or not any of them get wrecked, especially trying to prove some BS macho point.

Heck, if one of your guys breaks, so what? You just make a few calls and get another player to replace him/her. Maybe that player isn’t as good as the one you lost, but so what? Since you can work magic, you’ll have that player up to speed in just a few games!

Try puttin’ your own money on the line, to where when one of your players breaks, it costs you money, and I suspect you’ll suddenly become a lot more judicious about their use in meaningless situations! Along with that, I suspect you’ll do a lot more subbing, if for no other reason than to protect your investment!

If tournament/travel/select ball is so competitive, I’d think a mercy game would be extremely rare. Competitive should mean both opponents have a fairly equal chance to win the contest, which doesn’t seem to be the case to some of you. If you’re mercying so many teams, why not go up a level and see what happens? ;)

[TG Coach]

Heck, if one of your guys breaks, so what? You just make a few calls and get another player to replace him/her. Maybe that player isn’t as good as the one you lost, but so what? Since you can work magic, you’ll have that player up to speed in just a few games!

What makes you think coaches have so little regard for their players? I care so much about kids I've coached I always consider them my kids no matter who they played for. Since we didn't play today I watched two games with kids I used to coach.

With your logic, stealing a base a couple of time a year in a mercy situation is risking the player (when it's just strategy). What about the other 150-200 steal attempts over the course of the season? Are they too risky? Maybe the team should just stop stealing bases.


If tournament/travel/select ball is so competitive, I’d think a mercy game would be extremely rare. Competitive should mean both opponents have a fairly equal chance to win the contest, which doesn’t seem to be the case to some of you. If you’re mercying so many teams, why not go up a level and see what happens? ;)

Who said they happen all the time? Where they mostly happen is when a rec team signs up for a travel tournament. And sometimes your team has one of those days. In fifty games last year I know we were mercied twice. I believe we won about five mercies. Four were rec all-star teams who were out of their level of play. We don't have control over who signs up to play. One was a team who mercied us once, which goes to show even good teams have bad days. So in our fifty games there were three mercies involving quality teams.

[digglahhh]

With your logic, stealing a base a couple of time a year in a mercy situation is risking the player (when it's just strategy). What about the other 150-200 steal attempts over the course of the season? Are they too risky? Maybe the team should just stop stealing bases.

Carlos Beltran and Vladimir Guerrero say hi. :waving

Seriously, as far as I can tell, that is basically what is happening (also related is the rise of math-intensive analysis that shows how detrimental CSes truly are).

[scorekeeper]

Carlos Beltran and Vladimir Guerrero say hi. :waving

Seriously, as far as I can tell, that is basically what is happening (also related is the rise of math-intensive analysis that shows how detrimental CSes truly are).

Shame on you dig!

You’d dare to repudiate a coach, and one of such great renown too? You must be some kinda nut! ;)

I’m wonderin’ why you haven’t been told you’re a jerk because you’re nothing but a scorekeeper! That’s what I’ve been told many times by great youth coaches. :hyper:

[digglahhh]

I wasn't going for a "touche." It is just that TG mocked the idea of not stealing bases as a means of protecting your players. But, I think that is actually something of a trend and those are two examples of guys who easily could steal more than they do. A-Rod is another one.

It just so happens that these guys also happen to be among the best overall players in the game. So, one must question if they are being discouraged from doing so as a protective measure. It looks to me as if some of the coaches, managers or execs look at these uberstars who can be MVP level performers without running and see basestealing as something on the wrong side of the risk/reward scale.

[TG Coach]

I wasn't going for a "touche." It is just that TG mocked the idea of not stealing bases as a means of protecting your players. But, I think that is actually something of a trend and those are two examples of guys who easily could steal more than they do. A-Rod is another one.

It just so happens that these guys also happen to be among the best overall players in the game. So, one must question if they are being discouraged from doing so as a protective measure. It looks to me as if some of the coaches, managers or execs look at these uberstars who can be MVP level performers without running and see basestealing as something on the wrong side of the risk/reward scale.

You're comparing MLB to youth ball.

[digglahhh]

You're comparing MLB to youth ball.

Good one!

But, really I'm not comparing anything to anything. SK made a point about taking unnecessary risks with your most valuable assets. You dismissed it as silly (not in specific relation to any level, per se). I remarked that the most valuable commodities of all are seemingly treated like this.

I didn't recommend that you treat your players any specific way because the Yankees potentially discourage A-Rod from trying to steal 40 bags. Do you take unnecessary risks with your more valuable commodities in meaningless situations? Are teams overly cautious if they are discouraging their stars from stealing bases? These are things that are open to interpretation, I guess.

[Ursa Major]

TG Coach said: "The opposing team ran the bases aggressively to get the mercy. No one got upset. When one of the dads said something after the game, the coach told him that's how tournament ball is played. I've never seen an experienced tournament coach get upset when the other team goes for the knockout."This proves nothing, Coach. There's a world of difference between being classy yourself, and how you react to others being classless. What would be the point of a coach who teaches and models classy behavior throwing a fit about what other coaches do?

[scorekeeper]

This proves nothing, Coach. There's a world of difference between being classy yourself, and how you react to others being classless. What would be the point of a coach who teaches and models classy behavior throwing a fit about what other coaches do?

What a great and profound point, and I suppose that’s why its lost on so many people!

At one time, it was a common thing for parents and other “role models” in a child’s life, to attempt to live by and teach the “Golden Rule”.

From Answers.com.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

Behave toward others as you would like to have them behave toward you, as in Of course I'll help him out; it's a case of do unto others, and I may be in the same boat one day. This so-called golden rule is stated in just about every ancient writing about behavioral precepts (including the New Testament, Talmud, Koran, and the Analects of Confucius). Among the earliest appearances in English is Earl Rivers' translation of a saying of Socrates (Dictes and Sayenges of the Philosophirs, 1477): "Do to other as thou wouldst they should do to thee, and do to none other but as thou wouldst be done to." It is so well known that it is often shortened.

Evidently, a great many folks in the world today, have lowered their expectations of how they would like to be treated and respected, and they don’t see how what they do reflects on their beliefs and expectations.

[TG Coach]

Do you take unnecessary risks with your more valuable commodities in meaningless situations?

We have a roster full of players we see as equally important. While we don't want anyone to get injured the players play equally aggressive. Obviously the faster ones have more in the aggressive arsenal. We've had a player some might argue is the most dangerous hitter on the team, out for the first ten games due to an injury away from the team. The team hasn't missed a beat.

[digglahhh]

We have a roster full of players we see as equally important. While we don't want anyone to get injured the players play equally aggressive. Obviously the faster ones have more in the aggressive arsenal. We've had a player some might argue is the most dangerous hitter on the team, out for the first ten games due to an injury away from the team. The team hasn't missed a beat.

My question was rhetorical.

But, then again, you didn't answer it anyway... So I guess we're good.

If you are stealing bases after being up by a certain amount, or keeping your better pitchers on the hill or whatever, some people will interpret that as taking unnecessary risks. It is up to you to determine how high the risk is and how necessary it is. There probably isn't a chart on the wall for it. Not all 8 run leads are equally (in)surmountable. You know the context better than anyone, that's why you are the one who is trusted with the responsibilities that involve coaching. Risk management is one of them.

[TG Coach]

My question was rhetorical.

But, then again, you didn't answer it anyway... So I guess we're good.

If you are stealing bases after being up by a certain amount, or keeping your better pitchers on the hill or whatever, some people will interpret that as taking unnecessary risks. It is up to you to determine how high the risk is and how necessary it is. There probably isn't a chart on the wall for it. Not all 8 run leads are equally (in)surmountable. You know the context better than anyone, that's why you are the one who is trusted with the responsibilities that involve coaching. Risk management is one of them.

Let's not return to the opposing philosophies on going for the mercy after I respond. From my point of view if the score is 9-0 and one more run ends the game, our point of view is we're playing for one run, just the same as heading into the bottom of the last inning of a tie game. From this point of view the risk factor is the same.

From your opposing view you could state the risk factor is higher because you're probaby going to win the game anyway even if it goes three more innings, or the mercy may happen anyway by natural causes.

Taking it to a broader view of playing more games that day, I could counter the three innings of rest players receive by getting the mercy over could prevent a fatigue injury later in the day.

If there's more to say let's keep in the scope of risk factor and not have it be a debate over mercy or not mercy and tournament ball or anti-tournament ball.

[Ursa Major]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa Major
This proves nothing, Coach. There's a world of difference between being classy yourself, and how you react to others being classless. What would be the point of a coach who teaches and models classy behavior throwing a fit about what other coaches do?
Scorekeeper replied: What a great and profound point, and I suppose that’s why its lost on so many people! Thanks, Scorekeeper, it's not often I'm found to be 'profound'. There seemed to be a sense in the comment of, "Well, I can't be considered a jerk because no one's ever accused me of it to my face." In fact, that coach may be such a jerk that no one wants or bothers to confront him about how he plays his kids, or figure that he just won't get it anyway.

We've got a manager in our league who goes through bouts of ... well, jerkiness ... and goes off complaining about other teams cheating or publicly boasting about his kid at the expense of others. But, he's always cordial to me so I'm perfectly pleasant when I deal with him and we've had some good baseball chats; it doesn't do him or his kids for me to marginalize him or pile on top of the complaints about him made by others. Heck, he may think I'm one of his biggest supporters.

[digglahhh]

Taking it to a broader view of playing more games that day, I could counter the three innings of rest players receive by getting the mercy over could prevent a fatigue injury later in the day.

If there's more to say let's keep in the scope of risk factor and not have it be a debate over mercy or not mercy and tournament ball or anti-tournament ball.

You could make that argument. And, I readily admit that there is merit to it. What is the physical risk to one kid stealing a base as opposed to the risk to everybody involved in the game if it continues several more innings.

This wasn't my point, it was scorekeeper's. But risk management is somewhat related to the context of a game (especially mercy-type scores) because the balance of risk/reward shifts.

Of course, that brings up the whole debate of what "reward" a couple of preteens winning a ballgame is the grand scheme of things. I'm not going to harp on that.

But if you are going to talk about risk management, game context has to be a part of it. That's like saying your income shouldn't have anything to do with your investment strategy.

I'll tell ya the truth, and I'm not trying to sound like a tough guy. But if one kid started stealing bases while up by a huge margin against some of the teams I played on when I was kid, that would pose a grave risk to the physical safety of your entire team. Perhaps in the parking lot later on, or on your way to school later in the week... But, then again, I played ball growing up with a sordid cast of characters, as I've mentioned before.

This past Saturday morning, I ran into a kid I played with in a blacktop basketball touney in South Jamaica when we were in our young teens. We wound up having to throw some punches and got chased out of the park because he started whipping out all these pretty boy lay-ups and talking a lot of smack at the local team we were playing.

[Utility07]

I dont know about punches, but once we got to about six grade we knew the unwritten rules. Down by a bunch and the other teams stealing, and you stick one in their ear.

[digglahhh]

I dont know about punches, but once we got to about six grade we knew the unwritten rules. Down by a bunch and the other teams stealing, and you stick one in their ear.

I meant we had gotten jumped because of my teammate's behavior and we had to scrap our way out until we were free to make a break for it.

In high school our entire basketball team got robbed in the locker room by kids from the opposing school. I didn't play, I wouldn't have been eligible anyway because I wasn't very interested in passing my classes at that age. But, that type of stuff happened a lot. I attended Bronx Science; when you are one of the most academically elite high schools in the country and you play your athletics against neighborhood Bronx high schools, stuff like that was bound to happen. Our school was good at things like track and swimming, you know, any activity that could double as a means of fleeing!

There were a lot of kids who attended that school who were in need of being humbled, a lot of coddled, self-entitled, bratty overachieving kids. I'm not saying they deserved to get stuck up in a South Bronx bathroom, I'm just saying that some people learn their lessons in humility the hard way.

[TG Coach]

I'll tell ya the truth, and I'm not trying to sound like a tough guy. But if one kid started stealing bases while up by a huge margin against some of the teams I played on when I was kid, that would pose a grave risk to the physical safety of your entire team. Perhaps in the parking lot later on, or on your way to school later in the week... But, then again, I played ball growing up with a sordid cast of characters, as I've mentioned before.


In a non tournament environment I don't disagree. But let's not go around in that circle again.

[digglahhh]

In a non tournament environment I don't disagree. But let's not go around in that circle again.

It's not up to you to disagree or not. If the opposing pitcher uncorks one at the earflap of the kid you gave the steal sign to, your opinion isn't really relevant, is it?

Kids don't often consider the potential consequences of their actions, that's part of the responsibility of a youth coach.

[GFK]

I am simply amazed that so many members have spoken out against "running up the score" and in the next line implied retaliation in the form of a "bean ball" is in order. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Just so everyone knows what side of the fence I am on!

I "call the dogs off" when it is simply a double header and I know the "game is done" but the clock is still running.

I go for the mercy rule if it is a tournament. (We play a mixture of both.)

I have no problem with pitching inside. I do have a problem with intentional "bean balls".

[Jake Patterson]

I go for the mercy rule if it is a tournament. (We play a mixture of both.)


How does this help the players and how does this benefit the game?

[GFK]

I am simply amazed that so many members have spoken out against "running up the score" and in the next line implied retaliation in the form of a "bean ball" is in order. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Just so everyone knows what side of the fence I am on!

I "call the dogs off" when it is simply a double header and I know the "game is done" but the clock is still running.

I go for the mercy rule if it is a tournament. (We play a mixture of both.)

I have no problem with pitching inside. I do have a problem with intentional "bean balls".

How does this help the players and how does this benefit the game?

Jake, don't avoid the question. Do you agree with a losing team retaliating with a "bean ball" when the other team is "running up the score"?

Now to your question. The tournaments are strictly competition! We will learn from our mistakes made but we are there to play competitive ball! The double headers and / or league games are a mixture of both learning and competition. I do not consider competition to be a "dirty word".

We go for the mercy rule during tournament play because pool play looks at run differential and we look to save our pitching.

I know you disagree with me on many of these points. Jake, I respect your opinion and you.

[digglahhh]

Jake, don't avoid the question. Do you agree with a losing team retaliating with a "bean ball" when the other team is "running up the score"?

I wouldn't tell my pitcher to go out and bean the kid who stole the meaningless base in a romp.

But, if he decided to do it on his own, I wouldn't be surprised and you probably shouldn't be either. Again, kids are impulsive and make rash decisions.

Whether I reprimanded the kid for throwing the bean ball wouldn't do anything to erase the fact that your kid got beaned because you asked him to steal a base in a romp and none of it had to happen. I may disapprove of what my pitcher did, but it doesn't make the kid who got hit feel any better.

[GFK]

...Whether I reprimanded the kid for throwing the bean ball wouldn't do anything to erase the fact that your kid got beaned because you asked him to steal a base in a romp and none of it had to happen. I may disapprove of what my pitcher did, but it doesn't make the kid who got hit feel any better.

digglahhh, why did the bean ball have to happen? The pitcher decided to throw it. He did not have to throw it. The player has control over his behaviour. The coach has some control over his team's behaviour. An intentional "bean ball", in my book, shows poor sportsmanship. If the "bean ball" is in retaliation for "running up the score", IMO, it reflects on the character of the pitcher, coach, and team. It certainly teaches the kids to lose with dignity and sportmanship:rolleyes:

[digglahhh]

digglahhh, why did the bean ball have to happen? The pitcher decided to throw it. He did not have to throw it. The player has control over his behaviour. The coach has some control over his team's behaviour. An intentional "bean ball", in my book, shows poor sportsmanship. If the "bean ball" is in retaliation for "running up the score", IMO, it reflects on the character of the pitcher, coach, and team. It certainly teaches the kids to lose with dignity and sportmanship:rolleyes:

I agree.

It does not display dignity (certainly at the youth level, one can argue as you move up the ranks when "policing" the game becomes an accepted part of it).

But, I think the moral of the whole thing is that poor sportsmanship begets poor sportsmanship.

It is easier to maintain "class" if the line is never crossed in the first place. It is more difficult to avoid retaliation than it is to prevent an initial incident.

So, yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. But, as the ball is put in motion, it becomes exponentially harder to stop. Easier to prevent than cure...

BTW, when I said none of it, I meant NONE of it, the SB or the beanball.

[GFK]

...BTW, when I said none of it, I meant NONE of it, the SB or the beanball.

Now I think we are closer to seeing each other's points and agreement!

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, don't avoid the question. Do you agree with a losing team retaliating with a "bean ball" when the other team is "running up the score"?
In HS and above it happens I do not condone it nor ever had my pitchers do this. Brushing them back is one thing, going for the head is another.

Now to your question. The tournaments are strictly competition! We will learn from our mistakes made but we are there to play competitive ball! The double headers and / or league games are a mixture of both learning and competition. I do not consider competition to be a "dirty word".

We go for the mercy rule during tournament play because pool play looks at run differential and we look to save our pitching.

I know you disagree with me on many of these points. Jake, I respect your opinion and you.

I do not see this as a tournament versus non-tournament question I see it as a bunch of kids playing the game. In many cases TB, in my mind has become about the adults and not the children. We don't need to run this gauntlet again. What I have found however, and maybe I will do a legitimate study on this, is that the adults who are more supportive of travel and tournament ball are parents and organizers. Those who tend to be opposed to it at some level are those who have been there and look back or are those who make a living from the game.

When I was involved with TB as a parent I hated double headers..

[Ursa Major]

My third and fourth cents on the further developing controversy(ies):

1. In that insanity called tournament ball where teams may play a game on Friday evening, and two each on Saturday and Sunday, I can see going for the mercy, but within bounds. If you can get eight or nine runs up on a team in four innings and are thinking of ending it early to save pitchers, you oughta be able to get that run across without stealing. It depends on how the other team plays it. If they give up and put weaker players in as pitcher and catcher to get experience, than the steal is probably inappropriate. It they're still playing for the win, than the one steal needed to end it is within the coaches' call.

2. If the opposing coach berates a kid for stealing in a blowout, then the message has been delivered and further retaliation is inappropriate at any level.

3. Kids below -- oh, say, high school junior varsity -- probably have no business sending message pitches, as their control isn't good enough to make sure they don't bean someone.

4. The point is to send a message, not hurt or really scare the batter. You don't throw at his head. You just throw it enough inside that he has to markedly back away, and the message is sent. Anything further just invites counter-retaliation. And, this is a call from the kid; coaches shouldn't teach it. If the kid doesn't know this custom on his own, it's probably a bad idea to stick it into his head for the first time in the heat of battle.

Related point -- if a pitcher knocks our kids down (almost always by accident), we teach kids to "hit one back up the middle", even at 11-12 y/o ball. Mostly this is a mechanism to both channel the kid's annoyance/anger and deflect any tendency to back away that the inside pitch otherwise might cause. Is this inappropriate because we're putting the pitcher at more risk? (This assumes that the kids have that kind of bat control, but my experience is that this focus does increase the likelihood that a batter does hit one through the box.)

[scorekeeper]

How does this help the players and how does this benefit the game?

The only possible benefit I can see is, there’s seldom a team with enough pitching to put good pitchers that have had sufficient rest on the mound for every game in tourneys. So what they count on and pray for, is at least a game or two against a weak sister team they can mercy. That way they improve their chances of winning that trophy, but more importantly, get to save their really good pitchers for the really important games.

The truth seems to be that if every team in tournaments were truly competitive with all the rest, as many would have us believe, the number of pitching injuries to kids playing that venue would very likely rise to epidemic proportions!

The reason I say that is, I’ve never read a thing to make me believe most coaches of teams that play in those venues would do what it takes to correct the situation. One thing they could do would be to get more pitching, which would remove good pitching from more teams, making the imbalance even greater. Another would be to develop more pitching, which would take time away from the good pitchers they already have, and that’s if many of these coaches even know how to develop a P rather than recruit them. A more radical thing that would definitely help the situation, is to simply refuse to play the number of games now required, but we all know how likely that is! ;)

Nope, I don’t see any of those things or others taking place, instead, I see coaches continuing to do what they do now. Treat P’s like a piece of meat, and keep running them into the grinder, while they try to convince those of us who think much of what they’re doing is unnecessary, that everything they’re doing is for the benefit of the kids and their development of good citizens!

Now I suspect we’ll hear from coaches claiming that they’re different. They’re the good guys who would never misuse or abuse a kid in their charge. But I doubt we’ll hear from those coaches who continually take teams to the tournaments who get smoked nearly every game. The whole thing’s pretty sad!

[GFK]

...I do not see this as a tournament versus non-tournament question I see it as a bunch of kids playing the game. In many cases TB, in my mind has become about the adults and not the children. We don't need to run this gauntlet again. ... When I was involved with TB as a parent I hated double headers..

Jake, I don't know that you would call what we play as TB. We play a select league that plays double headers on Saturdays. We may go to a total of 2 or 3 tournaments during the entire spring and fall season. Usually these are on off weekends and between the spring and fall seasons.

...there’s seldom a team with enough pitching to put good pitchers that have had sufficient rest on the mound for every game in tourneys. So what they count on and pray for, is at least a game or two against a weak sister team they can mercy. That way they improve their chances of winning that trophy, but more importantly, get to save their really good pitchers for the really important games. ...

I have seen and have worked with teams that go the other route. We have sandbagged on the two pool play games on Saturday by using developing pitchers and catchers. We move the kids around to positions we are trying to develop them into or that they want to move into. It serves two purposes. First we save our better pitchers. Second, it gives the players an opportunity to work at other positions. We do not care if we win the pool play games. Sometimes we even get mercied! No big deal. The kids know the game plan. The games on Sunday are the ones that count.

...The truth seems to be that if every team in tournaments were truly competitive with all the rest, as many would have us believe, the number of pitching injuries to kids playing that venue would very likely rise to epidemic proportions!

We use a pitch count of 60 to 70 for a given weekend. Once the pitcher has hit his pitch count, we pull him. If he looks like he is getting tired, we pull him. We carry four kids that can pitch. We do not allow the C to pull double duty as a P. (They work up to the 60 or 70 in the months prior to the season start.)

I did see a kid that spooked me this last weekend. The kid was a 10U sitting in the other dugout with a sling on his arm. I asked his coach what happened and was told that he broke growth plates in four places after 4 pitches. From the outcome of the double header, I suspect he was their only significant pitcher, rode hard, and hung up wet.

...Now I suspect we’ll hear from coaches claiming that they’re different. They’re the good guys who would never misuse or abuse a kid in their charge. But I doubt we’ll hear from those coaches who continually take teams to the tournaments who get smoked nearly every game. The whole thing’s pretty sad!

Calm it down scorekeeper. I suspect you and I would agree on more things than not.

Also, while I previously stated our purpose / intent during our double headers and tournament play is to play competive ball and, hopefully, win, we also play instructional games. We play several games before and during the season that are arranged between coaches for the purpose of teaching. The coaches serve as umpires (scarry Huh). Any coach can stop the play at any point and visit the mound or talk to his players. No score is kept (except by the little snots in the dugout). Usually we will bat through the line-up each inning.

[scorekeeper]

I have seen and have worked with teams that go the other route. We have sandbagged on the two pool play games on Saturday by using developing pitchers and catchers. We move the kids around to positions we are trying to develop them into or that they want to move into. It serves two purposes. First we save our better pitchers. Second, it gives the players an opportunity to work at other positions. We do not care if we win the pool play games. Sometimes we even get mercied! No big deal. The kids know the game plan. The games on Sunday are the ones that count.
Its not that I have a problem with that kind of approach at all, but it does seem to fly in the face of many coaches who scream that one of their most important jobs as coaches is to make sure they always put the best players on the field to give the team the best opportunity to win.

I favor your approach, because it makes much more sense! There’s nothing riding on anything you do, other than to hopefully produce the most and best possible players.

We use a pitch count of 60 to 70 for a given weekend. Once the pitcher has hit his pitch count, we pull him. If he looks like he is getting tired, we pull him. We carry four kids that can pitch. We do not allow the C to pull double duty as a P. (They work up to the 60 or 70 in the months prior to the season start.)
Oh, if it were only so that everyone ran their team in a similar fashion.;)

Calm it down scorekeeper. I suspect you and I would agree on more things than not.
Heck, this is pretty calm for me! LOL!

Also, while I previously stated our purpose / intent during our double headers and tournament play is to play competive ball and, hopefully, win, we also play instructional games. We play several games before and during the season that are arranged between coaches for the purpose of teaching. The coaches serve as umpires (scarry Huh). Any coach can stop the play at any point and visit the mound or talk to his players. No score is kept (except by the little snots in the dugout). Usually we will bat through the line-up each inning.
Sounds a lot like what fall ball used to be, and something I’m much more in favor of, than traipsing all over creation, looking to win a meaningless title under the guise of development.

[bbb3601]

The only possible benefit I can see is, there’s seldom a team with enough pitching to put good pitchers that have had sufficient rest on the mound for every game in tourneys. So what they count on and pray for, is at least a game or two against a weak sister team they can mercy. That way they improve their chances of winning that trophy, but more importantly, get to save their really good pitchers for the really important games.

The truth seems to be that if every team in tournaments were truly competitive with all the rest, as many would have us believe, the number of pitching injuries to kids playing that venue would very likely rise to epidemic proportions!

The reason I say that is, I’ve never read a thing to make me believe most coaches of teams that play in those venues would do what it takes to correct the situation. One thing they could do would be to get more pitching, which would remove good pitching from more teams, making the imbalance even greater. Another would be to develop more pitching, which would take time away from the good pitchers they already have, and that’s if many of these coaches even know how to develop a P rather than recruit them. A more radical thing that would definitely help the situation, is to simply refuse to play the number of games now required, but we all know how likely that is! ;)

Nope, I don’t see any of those things or others taking place, instead, I see coaches continuing to do what they do now. Treat P’s like a piece of meat, and keep running them into the grinder, while they try to convince those of us who think much of what they’re doing is unnecessary, that everything they’re doing is for the benefit of the kids and their development of good citizens!

Now I suspect we’ll hear from coaches claiming that they’re different. They’re the good guys who would never misuse or abuse a kid in their charge. But I doubt we’ll hear from those coaches who continually take teams to the tournaments who get smoked nearly every game. The whole thing’s pretty sad!

Nice Post I Agree

[bbb3601]

I did see a kid that spooked me this last weekend. The kid was a 10U sitting in the other dugout with a sling on his arm. I asked his coach what happened and was told that he broke growth plates in four places after 4 pitches.


Please don't think i am stupid....but what exactly is a growth plate.
Also this has been a very interesting thread. I printed it off and have shared it with many friends.

[hiddengem]

Sounds like the bottom line here is that Tournament ball is complete garbage. Runs kids into the ground, in many cases hurts them and their future and breeds disrespect for the game and the players.
The only reason it exists is that it makes somebody alot of money at our youths expense.

As far as the bean ball, it will happen when the kid gets to highschool and it just might happen a tad before that if he doesn't know how to respect his opponent and the game. It doesn't have to come from a manager, all it takes is your team/player showing up the right person/team who actually understands the game and how it should be played and takes it into their own hands.

[dw8man]

Sounds like the bottom line here is that Tournament ball is complete garbage. Runs kids into the ground, in many cases hurts them and their future and breeds disrespect for the game and the players.
The only reason it exists is that it makes somebody alot of money at our youths expense.


I can not agree more! We live in a very competitive area for baseball and I see kids getting worn out or hurt as their parents drag them from tournament to tournament. I have also seen that their kids are not really getting any better for the time and effort put into it. We had a chance to spend every weekend this summer traveling all over the souteast playing ball. We decided instead to talk with the HS coaches and see if they wouldn't mind working some with the next set of HS kids after their HS practice was over. The agreed and it looks like it is the best thing we could have done. The coaches are working out the kids for an 1 1/2 or so a couple days per week. The kids are learning a ton and getting used to what will be expected of them next year or for a few of the kids the year after. The best part is we have a few kids who haven't play organized ball in a couple of years but because that are getting good coaching and are in a fun yet productive environment, they are catching up with the ones that have live nothing but baseball.

From a parents stand point, we are saving a ton of money and time and not wearing our kid out. In June, they will be playing a number of double headers and tournaments against other area HSs. While it will be a good oppurtunity to see good competition, there isn't the pressure and stress of we have to win it all, all the time. I really wish this could be expereinced by more kids and families.

[hiddengem]

I can not agree more! We live in a very competitive area for baseball and I see kids getting worn out or hurt as their parents drag them from tournament to tournament. I have also seen that their kids are not really getting any better for the time and effort put into it. We had a chance to spend every weekend this summer traveling all over the souteast playing ball. We decided instead to talk with the HS coaches and see if they wouldn't mind working some with the next set of HS kids after their HS practice was over. The agreed and it looks like it is the best thing we could have done. The coaches are working out the kids for an 1 1/2 or so a couple days per week. The kids are learning a ton and getting used to what will be expected of them next year or for a few of the kids the year after. The best part is we have a few kids who haven't play organized ball in a couple of years but because that are getting good coaching and are in a fun yet productive environment, they are catching up with the ones that have live nothing but baseball.

From a parents stand point, we are saving a ton of money and time and not wearing our kid out. In June, they will be playing a number of double headers and tournaments against other area HSs. While it will be a good oppurtunity to see good competition, there isn't the pressure and stress of we have to win it all, all the time. I really wish this could be expereinced by more kids and families.


What you are doing with your kids is without a doubt the best decision you could have ever made. Those kids will get better guidance, be more prepared and feel so much more comfortable going into highschool than any kid playing 8 games in a weekened could ever hope for. Along with that, you kids just might want to continuing playing when they get of highschool age because they haven't been totally burned out by the age of 14.

I, like your kids, had the fortunate opportunity to play on a summer team that was organized by my highschool coach when I was in 8th grade. Nothing could have prepared me more for the next level.

My hats off to you for taking a stance against the hogwash that our young kids are going through these days. Trust me, they aren't missing anything, I made it to the top and probably never played more than 40-50 games in a calender year before high school.

[Jake Patterson]

What you are doing with your kids is without a doubt the best decision you could have ever made. Those kids will get better guidance, be more prepared and feel so much more comfortable going into highschool than any kid playing 8 games in a weekened could ever hope for. Along with that, you kids just might want to continuing playing when they get of highschool age because they haven't been totally burned out by the age of 14.

I, like your kids, had the fortunate opportunity to play on a summer team that was organized by my highschool coach when I was in 8th grade. Nothing could have prepared me more for the next level.

My hats off to you for taking a stance against the hogwash that our young kids are going through these days. Trust me, they aren't missing anything, I made it to the top and probably never played more than 40-50 games in a calender year before high school.

Good post...

[TG Coach]

It's not up to you to disagree or not. If the opposing pitcher uncorks one at the earflap of the kid you gave the steal sign to, your opinion isn't really relevant, is it?

Kids don't often consider the potential consequences of their actions, that's part of the responsibility of a youth coach.


It's relevant because it wouldn't happen in tournament ball. The coaches in tournament ball understand. And in a league game I'd just pull back and let the game ride itself out. Also, I don't believe there are many 14U coaches who would order a pitcher to throw at a player's head. But once again, we wouldn't play for a mercy in a league game.

Warning: Your post and my response is heading towards that unproductive circle where we're not going to agree again.

[Jake Patterson]

Warning: Your post and my response is heading towards that unproductive circle where we're not going to agree again.
I think it's because.....
The coaches in tournament ball understand.

We have to agree that your experences with TB, it's impact on the game and the kids who play it are different than many.

[TG Coach]

The truth seems to be that if every team in tournaments were truly competitive with all the rest, as many would have us believe,....

Regardless of the level of competition there's going to be a top tier, middle bottom. My son has friends on a travel team who play some tournament ball. They get thrashed. Yet in their community travel league they're in the top third. A team that went to the 13U BRWS last year typically goes 1-3 in our tournaments.

My son's team is in the top third. They threw their gloves on the field and their minds in the dumpster one day and nearly lost to a bottom third team. Teams have to come to play every game. Sometimes that bottom third team has one pitcher who can handle anyone if his team plays good defense behind him.

Infrequently we encounter a team with no business entering a tournament. They don't realize what they were getting into.

[TG Coach]

Now I suspect we’ll hear from coaches claiming that they’re different. They’re the good guys who would never misuse or abuse a kid in their charge. But I doubt we’ll hear from those coaches who continually take teams to the tournaments who get smoked nearly every game. The whole thing’s pretty sad!

It's why we have a roster of fourteen active and three on a taxi squad. Eleven of the players are pitchers. No one on our team is playing every game and pitching more than sixty pitches a weekend so far this year. It's been cold and wet until last week. The kids arms aren't stretched out to go further. But given the depth of the staff they may not have to go further.

[TG Coach]

Sounds like the bottom line here is that Tournament ball is complete garbage. Runs kids into the ground, in many cases hurts them and their future and breeds disrespect for the game and the players.

Done wrong it can be garbage. Done wrong there are coaches who will blow out the arms of prepubescent pitchers. At 13U to 15U with a large enough roster it can be done properly. Done right a team doesn't have to play in more than a couple of tournaments a month. The way to ensure quality competition is to schedule non-tournament Sunday doubleheaders. We do this twice a month. When we do we bat CBO and pitchers go one or two innings. Players rotate in and out of the field equally.

[TG Coach]

I, like your kids, had the fortunate opportunity to play on a summer team that was organized by my highschool coach when I was in 8th grade. Nothing could have prepared me more for the next level.



Travel ball didn't exist when I played. We had quality rec ball. Now, our Jr Legion and rec programs are so strife with politics and daddyball favoristism the only quality option in our town is to play travel. But as I pointed out, we don't go over the top with it.

Hopefully the new high school coach will take a look at the lower levels and learn it's the reason the high school has had seventeen losing seasons in the past twenty years, get involved and influence cleaning it up. But by that time my son will be playing high school and Legion. But it will be good for those behind him. Some that benefit could be sophomore teammates when he's a senior.

I was on the community baseball board at one point and talked until I was blue in the face and quit, the responsibility of the board and coaches is to serve the community, not just their own kids.

[hiddengem]

Done wrong it can be garbage. Done wrong there are coaches who will blow out the arms of prepubescent pitchers. At 13U to 15U with a large enough roster it can be done properly. Done right a team doesn't have to play in more than a couple of tournaments a month. The way to ensure quality competition is to schedule non-tournament Sunday doubleheaders. We do this twice a month. When we do we bat CBO and pitchers go one or two innings. Players rotate in and out of the field equally.



Buddy, you can shine and polish and a terd and when its all said and done you still have a terd. I've been around it, I know how it is, its garbage baseball. Period.

[hiddengem]

It's relevant because it wouldn't happen in tournament ball. The coaches in tournament ball understand.


Don't you get it? All you guys are in the same boat, playing the same garbage baseball. If it wasn't about winning the tournament, like you say, than YOU would take a stance and play the game the right way, even though you ARE in that tournament.

[TG Coach]

Buddy, you can shine and polish and a terd and when its all said and done you still have a terd. I've been around it, I know how it is, its garbage baseball. Period.

I'm certainly not going to have my son play on a Jr Legion team from 13-15 where the coach refuses to play a kid until he's fifteen regardless of talent and won't allow him to play for another team to get playing time those two years. Our other choices are daddyball, instruction weak rec programs. Before you recommend I volunteer to coach, these coaches aren't giving up any coaching spots regardless of the knowledge base. That's why the local program is so bad. Playing for another community is not an option. It's not allowed. It's outside the boundaries.

Like I stated, for the future kids coming through hopefully the new high school coach will rattle a few cages in the community and tell them their way doesn't work. It's too bad people weren't as committed to the community when I first coached in my twenties. Dads were not allowed to coach in the BR league. All the coaches were young, former high school and college players in our twenties. We knew how to play the game. We weren't experienced coaches but we would sit down over beers and exchange ideas on how to get the message across. And we were fair about playing time. No one had kids involved.

[hiddengem]

This is how you play the game.
http://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/7d/9f9bbeda65a7366a9b211a104ce0f97d.th.jpg (http://server6.pictiger.com/img/33532/picture-hosting/take-out-.php)

[TG Coach]

Nice job of beating around the bush and not taking responsibity for your own actions.

I'm not beating around the bush. Whatever I post you act like an err, backside orifice. You're not capable of civil conversation.

[hiddengem]

You just want to keep it on a personal level. I've been able to have a level headed conversation with others but you're not capable of doing so. I'm not going to perpetuate your obnoxiousness. Don't mistake it for backing down. Have a nice day.

We are all just trying to get YOU to understand what you are doing. I don't want to hear about your leagues, other coaches or anything else. I'm not talking to them. If we get you to see the light, than you yourself can have an influence on the others.

[hiddengem]

You just proved your ignorance about tournament ball and high school ball in many states. A takeout slide is an automatic ejection. The runner must slide directly to the base. Why don't you just stay up their on your high horse. If you want to comment intelligently about other levels, read a rule book first.


Of course I knew that, because I put a picture up of me crushing a second baseman, that means I don't know the rules of baseball under the professional level?

[TG Coach]

We are all just trying to get YOU to understand what you are doing. I don't want to hear about your leagues, other coaches or anything else. I'm not talking to them. If we get you to see the light, than you yourself can have an influence on the others.

What light is it you want me to see? Should I stop providing the countless hours of free instruction I provide not only to the kids on the team I coach but a lot of other kids in the community? Should I stop teaching players how important the mental side of the game is since I believe it's the most undercoached aspect of youth sports? I could go on and on.

They only thing we disagree on is how to handle the end of one sided games in tournament ball. I don't believe we disagree on the amount kids play unless you have an issue with playing four games a week. Even if the team plays more, that's all any one kid plays.

[TG Coach]

Of course I knew that, because I put a picture up of me crushing a second baseman, that means I don't know the rules of baseball under the professional level?

Personally, I find banning a clean takeout side to be part of the wussification of sports. By high school a kid should be able to do a clean takeout slide.

[Jake Patterson]

Ok Boys - I'm not going to keep deleting posts...

TG, You're missing the point entirely. I would be happy to give it another shot off-line, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

HG, I'm in it up to my neck. School ball, Little League BOD, Legion Board, coaching clinic organizer, clinician, author, etc... I see the game I love being abused by parents everyday. I try to save it a little piece at a time. I learned in the Army many years ago that success sometimes comes easier by being patient and applying constant pressure than it does by conducting a full frontal assault.

Please -Lets keep it civil.

[TG Coach]

Ok Boys - I'm not going to keep deleting posts...

TG, You're missing the point entirely. I would be happy to give it another shot off-line, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

HG, I'm in it up to my neck. School ball, Little League BOD, Legion Board, coaching clinic organizer, clinician, author, etc... I see the game I love being abused by parents everyday. I try to save it a little piece at a time. I learned in the Army many years ago that success sometimes comes easier by being patient and applying constant pressure than it does by conducting a full frontal assault.

Please -Lets keep it civil.

I'm not missing his point. I agree in terms of league style play. I'm disagreeing with his point as it relates to tournament ball. But it doesn't seem to be allowed.

[digglahhh]

Done wrong it can be garbage. Done wrong there are coaches who will blow out the arms of prepubescent pitchers. At 13U to 15U with a large enough roster it can be done properly. Done right a team doesn't have to play in more than a couple of tournaments a month. The way to ensure quality competition is to schedule non-tournament Sunday doubleheaders. We do this twice a month. When we do we bat CBO and pitchers go one or two innings. Players rotate in and out of the field equally.

It's not playing quality competition, it is getting quality instruction.

I could step into the middle of NBA Finals and run up and down the court, but my time would be better spent doing footwork drills with the 12th man off the bench.

[hiddengem]

What light is it you want me to see? Should I stop providing the countless hours of free instruction I provide not only to the kids on the team I coach but a lot of other kids in the community? Should I stop teaching players how important the mental side of the game is since I believe it's the most undercoached aspect of youth sports? I could go on and on.

They only thing we disagree on is how to handle the end of one sided games in tournament ball. I don't believe we disagree on the amount kids play unless you have an issue with playing four games a week. Even if the team plays more, that's all any one kid plays.


Nobody ever said anything about your instruction to kids, mental stuff ect. Thats stuff is great. We are talking about teaching and coaching your team in a way that doesn't disrespect the game and or your opponent. And because you enter a tournament and disrespect the game just "because" thats the way tournament ball is, doesn't fly. You could totally enter a tournament and be the team that plays the game the right way and if you need to leave the tourny early because of it, so be it. But it seems you will lower your standards to what, win a trophey? I believe you are better than that.

As far as playing 4 days a week. Yea I do think that is too much, that is rediculous. Even if the kids don't have to play, don't they still have to be there? This is the BURN OUT I'm talking about. When I played little league we had one weekday game and one weekened game and maybe a practice. Even in college ball you have a weekday game and 2 on the weekend. You are playing more than 18-21 yr olds in college and only slighly less than I do(7 days a week) at the pro level.

[TG Coach]

It's not playing quality competition, it is getting quality instruction.

I could step into the middle of NBA Finals and run up and down the court, but my time would be better spent doing footwork drills with the 12th man off the bench.

Quality instruction is also part of the package. We practice at least twice a week. Three times in weeks we don't have tournaments. There's no sense in playing for the sake of playing without proper instruction. Every coach played college ball and/or in the minors. Every position is covered.

What I like about the team for the benefit of my son is the training he's getting as a middle infielder. As a lefty all my experience is as an outfielder and pitcher. The infield coach can see things to a fine detail I might miss from lack of experience. Any middle infield knowledge I have is by observance and asking questions.

[TG Coach]

As far as playing 4 days a week. Yea I do think that is too much, that is rediculous. Even if the kids don't have to play, don't they still have to be there? This is the BURN OUT I'm talking about. When I played little league we had one weekday game and one weekened game and maybe a practice. Even in college ball you have a weekday game and 2 on the weekend. You are playing more than 18-21 yr olds in college and only slighly less than I do(7 days a week) at the pro level.

They play four games a week two weeks a month. The games are on the weekend. They practice twice during these weeks. The other two weeks we play one doubleheader and practice three times a week. It's not as much as I played.

At fourteen we had three games a week and two or three practices. Including school, the BR regular season and all-stars (made regions) we played about forty-five games. In Legion we played sixty games in three months after playing about twenty-two high school games. No one burned out. No one was injured. We didn't start all sixty.

In college you played sixty games over three months plus post season play. Then you played college summer ball. That's 90-100 games not including fall ball. So don't compare my son's experience to college ball. I know better.

As a pro player you're on the field at 4:30 and head for the locker room about 9:30pm. You do this six or seven days a week. You do it from April to September plus six weeks of spring training. On practice days my son is on the field for ninety minutes. His season runs from April through July. He practices once a week in February. He practices twice a week in March. So once again don't compare his experience with pro ball.

The part I agree is rediculous is how the elimination (Sunday) day format works in tournament ball. A team can have up to four games which is nuts. How we get around it is having enough players where they only play two and a half games if we have to play four. But the time at the park it nuts. I'll be glad when he's old enough to play Legion and he never plays more than a doubleheader in a day again.

Also, my son did not play in these formats before 13U except a couple of times at 12U to see what it was like. I also take my son to a sports medicine expert twice a year for an examination of his joints. His health is a priority. He also plays football and basketball (at least through freshman year).

I've already been through the process with the oldest playing three high school sports along with travel softball, and now college softball. I know better than to burn out my kids. In fact, sometimes I slow them down. Otherwise they would go full tilt almost all the time. Where's my son when he's not playing organized sports? In the park playing basketball or skateboarding, in a cul-de-sac playing street hockey or playing whiffle ball in someone's backyard. I may be the only parent that suggests his kid slow down and play video games (It's baseball season/he only plays MLB07).

[Jake Patterson]

In Legion we played sixty games in three months after playing about twenty-two high school games. No one burned out. No one was injured. We didn't start all sixty.


Legion typically plays 27 in 30 and 2-4 weeks of post season depending upon how far you go. They cannot start until school ball is finished and usually never go past the end of July. Here it is the combination of four high schools and local freshman college students.
Jake
AL Post 67

[TG Coach]

Legion typically plays 27 in 30 and 2-4 weeks of post season depending upon how far you go. They cannot start until school ball is finished and usually never go past the end of July. Here it is the combination of four high schools and local freshman college students. Jake
AL Post 67

Jake ... Our team played and played and played. While we had 28 conference games, states, regions and nationals (one year), we played a lot of scheduled nonconference games. If our Saturday game was a single we played a second game as a non-con. We played Sunday doubleheaders against other conferences and teams in neighboring states. Eleven players from my junior year team either played college ball and/or signed. We had fifteen players. With all the extra games everyone played a lot and stayed sharp. One year the winning pitcher in the state championship was on the mound for the first time that year in an important game. But he had pitched every week that season. So he was ready.

As I mentioned we played about 45 games in junior high between school, BR and BR all-stars. Our LL teams played or practiced six days a week. From about age seven to fourteen we played and played all day on our own. We probably played three games a day before going to our LL game. We never burned out. The point I do make about pickup ball versus too much organized ball is kids in a pickup game know when to take a break or quit. They can't walk away from an organized game. Plus there isn't pressure in a playground pickup game unless it's self imposed.

Please don't misconstrue anything I've stated into thinking kids should be playing 75-100 travel games like some teams do. That's a recipe for wear and tear and injury especially when the kids are prepubescent.

[GFK]

...From about age seven to fourteen we played and played all day on our own. We probably played three games a day before going to our LL game. We never burned out. The point I do make about pickup ball versus too much organized ball is kids in a pickup game know when to take a break or quit. They can't walk away from an organized game. Plus there isn't pressure in a playground pickup game unless it's self imposed. ...

The $100 question:

How do we get back to the unorganized sandlot ball?

I don't have any real good answers. I do know outlawing Nintendo, Sony Playstation, XBox, and 24 Hr. cartoons on the tube would be a step in the right direction.

[TG Coach]

The $100 question:

How do we get back to the unorganized sandlot ball?

I don't have any real good answers. I do know outlawing Nintendo, Sony Playstation, XBox, and 24 Hr. cartoons on the tube would be a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately, for the most part we're not. Cable TV and the internet brings every unfortunate story into our homes. People are led to believe the world is a much scarier place than it is. Most won't let their kids go to the park.

There is a guy in the Washington DC area running a summer camp based on pickup sports. The counselors roll out the equipment, are on hand for injuries and serve lunch. Other than that the kids pick up sides in whatever sport and play.

[digglahhh]

Unfortunately, for the most part we're not. Cable TV and the internet brings every unfortunate story into our homes. People are led to believe the world is a much scarier place than it is. Most won't let their kids go to the park.

Certainly agree with you here. We preach fear-mongering to our children and then wonder why they grow up to lack social skills. Unorganized sports is about as good as anything when it comes to developing social skills and learning to deal with people of all different races, personalities and so on.

[bbb3601]

Some of my fondest memories as a kid were pick up wiffle ball or frisbee football games in the vancant parking lots, or even at school. Now you take a wifle ball bat to school they call it a weapon and send you home!

[Erik]

This is how you play the game.
http://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/7d/9f9bbeda65a7366a9b211a104ce0f97d.th.jpg (http://server6.pictiger.com/img/33532/picture-hosting/take-out-.php)


Hiddengem,
I like this slide. I have been on the other side of this and it does wake you up some. I was taken out by Bo Jackson on a double play one night. I remember just hearing him making this wissssssing sound when he was coming. The next thing I know I'm on my back from a flip. I looked down at Bo and said Daaam Bo I didn't know your neck was that big. My third baseman hung me out. That was one of the hardest takeouts I experienced. I want to thank you for reminding me of this:hp. Bo Jackson also that night hit one of the hardest balls I have seen hit. The sound off the bat was sick. I had again the chance to meet Bo as he past second base. I remember saying way to go Bo you took two( me, and the ball) out tonight he laughed. I became one of the players that made sure I did my job on taking out the middle infielder when I could. I was legal though didn't want to hurt anyone. I had a different frame of mind when I was the middle infielder turning the two. I learned early to make yourself known. I did this by throwing through the runner. I hit 2 players one in the chest the other above the eye which needed stitches. I got respect quick, being a middle infielder can be a very dangerous job. I didn't play dirty but the runners new to get down brother. I have to say I agree with you on this topic that is being talked about.








EL,