NL Draft Opinion Championship

[plask_stirlac]

Remember, these are all teams in one league, fighting through a full season to reach the playoffs and then the best playing each other for the pennant. Consider offense, fielding, starting pitching and relief pitching with the weightings that you think each carries for ultimate success in real life.

Rosters
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57314

SamtheBravesFan
tearforamariner
Honus Wagner Rules
ElHalo
The Splendid Splinter
Sockeye
AstrosFan
Williamsburg2599
CCC
plask_stirlac
Washizzle Express
Dudecar00
Windy City Fan
cashwrapper

[AstrosFan]

I just want to note that I have made a waiver wire move. I hope that's all right. The change has been made on my roster.

[Williamsburg2599]

I'm assuming we can't vote for ourselves? ;)

[AstrosFan]

I wouldn't. I think it's worth noting that my backup catcher replaced my starting catcher as the St. Louis Cardinals' number one guy over the 1980 offseason. I think that should count for something.

[Sockeye]

My team is without question #1 and here is why.

1. Starting Pitching: My 5 starters have a combined 71.2 WARP1!! An average of 14.2 per pitcher! Far and away the best starting rotation in this league!

2. Bullpen: My 5 relievers have a combined 41 WARP1!! An average of 8.2 per pitcher! Without question the best bullpen in this league!

3. Hitting: My starting lineup has a combined 90.6 WARP1!! An average of 11.3 per player! Undoubtibly among the top 3 lineups in this league if not #1.

4. Fielding: My starters combined for 136 FRAA!! An average of 17 FRAA per player! Surely the best fielding team in the league.

Combine all 4 aspects of the game and my team is the most well rounded team in the league hands down.

Thank you in advance for your votes. I'll look forward to representing our league vs the AL.

[-Kyle-]

My team is without question #1 and here is why.

1. Starting Pitching: My 5 starters have a combined 71.2 WARP1!! An average of 14.2 per pitcher! Far and away the best starting rotation in this league!

2. Bullpen: My 5 relievers have a combined 41 WARP1!! An average of 8.2 per pitcher! Without question the best bullpen in this league!

3. Hitting: My starting lineup has a combined 90.6 WARP1!! An average of 11.3 per player! Undoubtibly among the top 3 lineups in this league if not #1.

4. Fielding: My starters combined for 136 FRAA!! An average of 17 FRAA per player! Surely the best fielding team in the league.

Combine all 4 aspects of the game and my team is the most well rounded team in the league hands down.

Thank you in advance for your votes. I'll look forward to representing our league vs the AL.

If you put that much stock into warp, I'd rather go with EQA or even OPS+/ERA+. No clue how to evalute fielding well.

[AstrosFan]

You have way more IP than you need, which makes your pitchers look better than they are by WARP1. Per IP, my starters are actually better than yours, and my relievers aren't far behind. Overall, my pitchers have .045 WARP1 per IP. Yours have .044.

Did I mention my starting lineup has a WARP1 of 95.3?

I just used my team as something to compare yours to. I have no intention of selling it as the best in the league.

[Westlake]

I felt the best teams were ElHalo's and Tearforamariner's. ElHalo's rotation was so good, I couldn't ignore it... he got my vote.

[Williamsburg2599]

All I ask is you give my team a look: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=817115&postcount=8

I feel my team is all-around solid, and will play good in my ballpark's demensions. Although I didn't want to vote for myself, so I voted for WCF.

[plask_stirlac]

My vote went to Windy City Fan, I didn't want to vote for myself, but I will make a case.

I voted for WCF, his roster struck me on reviewing them all. He has plenty of offense including catcher, second, and shortstop. The "thunder" guys are fast and EBH-happy anyway, in Speaker, Mays, and Thomas (okay, Thomas isn't fast) and, Boggs is an awesome hitter, and Henderson is pure speed. I'm not entirely sure how Davis will do, as the 1894 era was surreal for offense and not defense other than the FRAA metric (into WARP), but it's worth a shot.

The rotation is solid, especially in not allowing baserunners. If Stieb and Sutton can keep their homers low, they'll work well.

The bullpen looks really great if incredibly small. Anyway, enough for my vote.

My case

I have a balanced squad that will probably lead the league in HRs hit and perhaps WHIP. It's a fast team all-around with great defense. For as strong as the offense started and rounded out, I also picked incredible starters and a nasty bullpen. Nearly every player is proven to be elite, if not a legend in the ultra-competitive modern era post-integration and internationalization (or they stood out as exceptionally dominant). Team chemisty would be as good as any GM can engineer, a diverse, inclusive, and competitive group.

Think about Mantle in his prime, what a great centerpiece, the AL couldn't deal with him for a decade really. He was among the 2 best OFs in the 50s, as Clemente was in the 60s among 4. Mathews was quietly the best infielder of the 1950s, and Bagwell perhaps of the 1990s (best 1B for sure). Any could make a case as team leader. Ryne Sandberg had a vestaile prime with great power, Sewell was an electric player with ridiculous defensive years. Bill Dickey in his prime was right up there with Gehrig and Dimaggio given he was catching.

Pedro is perhaps the best prime pitcher. 1997 stacks up with Gooden's 1985 and it's his third-best season arguably! 1998, 2002 with 99-00 of course... just great years, period. Of course Greg Maddux can challenge him, probably the greatest prime for consistently preventing runs, the point in the end. Johan Santana is writing his own history, Catfish Hunter was a force of nature, and Babe Adams just shut hitters down. Mike Garcia also stymied hitters pretty well for a 6th starter...

Look at Keith Foulke's numbers, Hall of Fame quality but for longevity. Tug McGraw at his best was about as complete a lefty, dominating reliever as can be. When Paul Quantrill put it together and set up for Gagne he basically wasn't touched, and Lowe had an outstanding, even legendary year with 74 outings, long outings, 1999 in Fenway, and marvelous results. Latroy Hawkins was an excellent setup man, as was Doug Brocail.
- Superb offense, every starter but two at a .330 EqA or better versus league (Sewell .323, Sandberg a .306 but as a slugging, defensive 8-hitter). All but one starter hit 18+ HR and four with 40+.
- Great team speed, 5 of the 8 starting position players stole at least 10. Overall 192 steals in 244 attempts, 79%.
- Great team defense, two of the best corner OFs in Raines and Clemente with Edmonds and Beltran ready to step in. Mantle could hold his own.
Excellent defense from Dickey, Bagwell, and up the middle: Sewell and Sandberg, he of 9 gold gloves and a 104 career rate. Tony Perez rates surprisingly well and Dick Bartell was a wizard.

- Great pitching, team .96 WHIP with .46 HR9 and sub-1.00 WHIP for all 5 starters to go with great defense. It's a staff put in the position to prevent hits and walks at all, with Maddux and Adams ingenious and even historic at not allowing homers. The bullpen basically squelched home runs, all but one reliever was at a 200 or better rate against league so 100% better, two guys pitched over 100 innings and a third hit 90. Only one reliever had a WHIP over 1, and these guys came from the offense-heavy era since 1993.

[The Splendid Splinter]

I'm actually surprised I got a couple votes for my team... I didn't think my team would do good on this part. I think I will do well in the sim considering my stadium that my team will play in.

by the way, I voted for TFAM...

about the main thing i got going for my team is my starting AVG. of the 8 starters is like .366 or something insane like that...

[plask_stirlac]

Oops, didn't make results public. *shrug*

[Williamsburg2599]

Oops, didn't make results public. *shrug*

Doesn't that mean people could easily make another account and vote for their team twice? :confused: Is there anyway a Mod could make the votes public?

[tearforamariner]

Doesn't that mean people could easily make another account and vote for their team twice? :confused: Is there anyway a Mod could make the votes public?

the only way is to delete this thread and start a new thread and poll. Sorry.

[Westlake]

I could have sworn that when I voted ElHalo had 2 votes... now he only has one.

[plask_stirlac]

Vote again, please.

[The Dude]

Plask, I merged the threads for you, with the new Poll being the surviving one.

[Windy City Fan]

Plask made a case for me, but I'll make my own.

Offensively, my team has exactly one person below 149 OPS+, and that's Rickey Henderson who stole 100 bases that year at a 79% success rate. Even more than OPS, my team excells at OBP. Boggs, Henderson, Robinson, and Cochrane all make most of their OPS+ figures in OBP, the underrated half of the equation. Speaker, Mays, Thomas, and Davis all also have stellar OBP marks. In addition to getting on base a lot, my team can run. Speaker, Robinson, Davis, Mays, and Henderson were all considered top notch baserunners in their day. And of course, its not as if the middle of my order lacks slugging with Mays, Speaker, and Thomas.

Defensively, my team is not hurting either. Henderson/Speaker/Mays is probably the best defensive outfield in the league. All of them very fast and able to cover a lot of ground. On the infield, we're not as strong. Thomas is a definately liability, but he plays the least important position on the diamond in first base. Boggs had a good fielding year according to FRAA, though he's certainly not a great fielder, he won't hurt me. Davis and Robinson should be strong up the middle, and Cochrane is very solid behind the plate.

On my bench, I got two defensive studs to help tighten my infield if needed. Keith Hernadez can serve as a superb defensive replacement for The Big Hurt, and Ozzie Smith is the most valuable defensive player to ever live, giving me an ace glove for the middle of my infield. Ernie Lombardi is a catcher that can really hit and should do well spelling Cochrane against some left handed pitching. Berkman, Guerro, Stargell, and Billy Williams give me 4 solid bats (2 lefties, two righties) to use as pinch hitters.

Pitching wise, I like my team too. Three Finger Brown 1906 season might be the best season eligible, at least in terms of ERA+. His WHIP of 0.934 is quite nice also. Marichal provides me with a very solid, dependable #2 guy and he'll eat up a lot of innings. Plus a 0.859 WHIP is absolutely stellar, especially when coupled with a 6 to 1 KK/BB ratio. Stieb, Oswalt, and Sutton make for a fine back end to the rotation. They're in the same mold as my top two guys - good WHIP guys with good KK/BB ratios along with their already posted ERA+ numbers.

And my pen is tops. No one beats my one-two righty-lefty punch of Dennis Eckersley (606 ERA+) and Billy Wagner (300 ERA+). Those two guys make every game against me a 7 inning contest. Eichorn, Howe, and Leonard round out the rotation. Eichhorn and Howe are lesser versions of Eck and Wags - a righty/lefty combo with outstanding ERA+ numbers. Leonard isn't as impressive by ERA+, but he gives me flexibility being able to relive and occassionally spot start.

[plask_stirlac]

^^ Whom did you vote for?

EDIT: NM, easy to find out, himself.

[Wade8813]

I've narrowed it down to three people so far - Windy City Fan, Honus Wagner Rules, and Washizzle.

[Williamsburg2599]

Will someone tell me the strengths and weaknesses of my team? My view may be a little biast, but I don't see that many problems with it.

[Windy City Fan]

Will someone tell me the strengths and weaknesses of my team? My view may be a little biast, but I don't see that many problems with it.

Offensively, your team is solid, but not fearsome like a lot of lineups. Maranville is obviously a black hole on offense, especially in these league. Hack is a nice (but not great) OBP, but has little pop and doesn't bring much else. More importantly, no one other than Ted Williams has a monster bat for you. Ott, Wynn, Alomar, Bresnahan, and Stargell all have good numbers and will be solid producers, but they're not scary in the context of this league.

Pitching wise, eh. Clemens is a great ace, no doubt, but Bill Lee with a 104 ERA+ is one of yoru starters? Early Wynn with a 115? Clarkson is good, but I don't think he rates as a number two starter in this league, especially if you believe in time line adjustments.

Your pen is nice, though I'd have Quiz close over Smith.

[Windy City Fan]

I've narrowed it down to three people so far - Windy City Fan, Honus Wagner Rules, and Washizzle.

Looking the other two vying for your vote ....

HWR has a great offense, and a solid staff, but his defense is a little suspect. Hornsby and Jeter are probably the weakest DP combo in the league in terms of fielding. Piazza is easily the worst backstop. Guerro, Griffey, and Klein are nothing special as a unit.

I will confess, I didn't bother to look up the fielding data on these guys for the specific years selected. FRAA or FRAR does a good job for career ratings I think, but has some odd ticks from year to year.

Washizzle, I'm kind of surprised is there. Fielding wise, he has his own problems with an infield of Kent, Appling, and Martinez. And while he boasts two monster bats in Bonds and Gerhig, I think I'd take HWR's (or my own) lineup over his as a whole. Pitching wise, if you believe in any kind of LQ adjustments his 5 starters all have to take a hit (all with years of 1917 or earlier).

[Wade8813]

Offensively, your team is solid, but not fearsome like a lot of lineups. Maranville is obviously a black hole on offense, especially in these league. Hack is a nice (but not great) OBP, but has little pop and doesn't bring much else. More importantly, no one other than Ted Williams has a monster bat for you. Ott, Wynn, Alomar, Bresnahan, and Stargell all have good numbers and will be solid producers, but they're not scary in the context of this league.

Pitching wise, eh. Clemens is a great ace, no doubt, but Bill Lee with a 104 ERA+ is one of yoru starters? Early Wynn with a 115? Clarkson is good, but I don't think he rates as a number two starter in this league, especially if you believe in time line adjustments.

Your pen is nice, though I'd have Quiz close over Smith.You have decent (but not great) hitting. The same is true of your pitchers. Clarkson is a solid two for this league IMO, but not great. Halladay at three is decent. After that? Bleh.





Looking the other two vying for your vote ....

HWR has a great offense, and a solid staff, but his defense is a little suspect. Hornsby and Jeter are probably the weakest DP combo in the league in terms of fielding. Piazza is easily the worst backstop. Guerro, Griffey, and Klein are nothing special as a unit.

I will confess, I didn't bother to look up the fielding data on these guys for the specific years selected. FRAA or FRAR does a good job for career ratings I think, but has some odd ticks from year to year.

Washizzle, I'm kind of surprised is there. Fielding wise, he has his own problems with an infield of Kent, Appling, and Martinez. And while he boasts two monster bats in Bonds and Gerhig, I think I'd take HWR's (or my own) lineup over his as a whole. Pitching wise, if you believe in any kind of LQ adjustments his 5 starters all have to take a hit (all with years of 1917 or earlier). After reading the Hornsby thread in the History forum, I'm convinced Hornsby's good with the glove. And I always thought Appling was good at D.

Also, while D is certainly important, it's much less important than hitting and pitching.

His lineup is much better than either of yours. Admittedly, Bonds is a big part of that, but still...

[Windy City Fan]

Hornsby wasn't horrible with the glove like some have made him out to be, but on a historic level (like this league) his glove is weak. FRAA has him at 14 for his career, meaning he basically a break even defensive player. Most other metrics have him lower than that I believe. Hornsby wasn't God awful with the glove, otherwise he would've moved to a less demanding position, but among second basemen who played a significant time at the position, he's near the bottom.

Appling is at 20 FRAA for his career. For his career he was .004 below the league in fielding percentage and does not have a reputation as a rangey guy. I've never seen any metrics that judge him to be anything special with a glove.

[Wade8813]

Fair enough. But I'd still take his hitting over either of yours, by a good margin. In fact, I'd take it over anyone's (in this league).

[The Splendid Splinter]

Fair enough. But I'd still take his hitting over either of yours, by a good margin. In fact, I'd take it over anyone's (in this league).

Only guy who was even close to Hornsby's was Lajoie... but after Lajoie is kinda a dropoff... hitting-wise anyway.

[Wade8813]

I agree completely (hence the reason I took Lajoie in the AL draft, and was willing to upgrade him into Hornsby via trade), but there are other positions to consider as well.

If you add up OPS+ (not the best measure, but it gives you a feel for things), WCF has about the same as you do, TSS. HWR has almost 80 more, and Washizzle has 60 more than that. 140 OPS+ is approximately the difference between Ruth's best year, and Mark McLemore's best year at the plate. That's HUGE.

[Windy City Fan]

OPS+ underrates my team for two reasons. First off, I have a lot of guys who can run, and those stolen bases aren't factored into OPS+. Secondly, most of my hitters are high OBP guys. OBP is the underrated half of the OPS+ equation. Here's my guys relative OBP ....

Rickey Henderson 130 (100 steals)
Jackie Robinson 130 (24 Steals)
Tris Speaker 138 (35 Steals)
Willie Mays 122 (38 Steals)
Frank Thomas 136
Wade Boggs 137
Mickey Cochrane 116
George Davis 112 (37 Steals)

[The Splendid Splinter]

I agree completely (hence the reason I took Lajoie in the AL draft, and was willing to upgrade him into Hornsby via trade), but there are other positions to consider as well.

If you add up OPS+ (not the best measure, but it gives you a feel for things), WCF has about the same as you do, TSS. HWR has almost 80 more, and Washizzle has 60 more than that. 140 OPS+ is approximately the difference between Ruth's best year, and Mark McLemore's best year at the plate. That's HUGE.

While that's true on OPS+, washizzle beat me by that only on one person basically with Bonds (considering he has like 70 more OPS+ than my best guy Lajoie). That's half right there just on one person. Also I missed out on some guys that I could've got instead but I made my team that I had envisioned on a team before the draft that I would want to make and the stadium which I think they would be a great fit with. I didn't care about the voting part cuz I figured I wouldn't do good with it cuz my team doesn't excel at one thing, but it's very very solid everywhere and probably lack of star names power (beside Lajoie and Mathewson). I think I will do well in the sim with my team, depending on how the LQ adjustment are made and how much defense will come into play in the sim. Only thing I wish I could've done better with on my team is getting a better 2nd pitcher. I can tell you one thing though, that my team is one of most versatile team if not the most.

[Wade8813]

OPS+ underrates my team for two reasons. First off, I have a lot of guys who can run, and those stolen bases aren't factored into OPS+. Secondly, most of my hitters are high OBP guys. OBP is the underrated half of the OPS+ equation. Here's my guys relative OBP ....

Rickey Henderson 130 (100 steals)
Jackie Robinson 130 (24 Steals)
Tris Speaker 138 (35 Steals)
Willie Mays 122 (38 Steals)
Frank Thomas 136
Wade Boggs 137
Mickey Cochrane 116
George Davis 112 (37 Steals)That's true, and is certainly something to factor.

What's their SB%? Because I'm fairly sure getting thrown out on base hurts more than a successful SB helps (especially with big hitting teams - you're taking the bat out of a better hitter's hands).

While that's true on OPS+, washizzle beat me by that only on one person basically with Bonds (considering he has like 70 more OPS+ than my best guy Lajoie). That's half right there just on one person. Also I missed out on some guys that I could've got instead but I made my team that I had envisioned on a team before the draft that I would want to make and the stadium which I think they would be a great fit with. I didn't care about the voting part cuz I figured I wouldn't do good with it cuz my team doesn't excel at one thing, but it's very very solid everywhere and probably lack of star names power (beside Lajoie and Mathewson). I think I will do well in the sim with my team, depending on how the LQ adjustment are made and how much defense will come into play in the sim. Only thing I wish I could've done better with on my team is getting a better 2nd pitcher. I can tell you one thing though, that my team is one of most versatile team if not the most. Washizzle could have made his team better for both the sim AND the draft, but he was too busy screwing around.

And no matter how unfair it might be, it doesn't really matter too much if his OPS comes from one guy, or five guys. He still gets that much more production from his team. The only exception is if Bonds gets injured, he loses a lot more than if his OPS+ was spread out more. But I can't vote using the assumption that Bonds will get injured for an extended period of time, because the odds are that he won't.

[tearforamariner]

I've narrowed it down to three people so far - Windy City Fan, Honus Wagner Rules, and Washizzle.

So why is my name not in it Wade? My OPS+ for my 8 starters is about equal to HWR's (his starter has an average OPS+ of 168, mine an average of 165), and then my team has better D and better pitching (his starters have an average ERA+ of 147, mine 159). Why not consider me?

[Wade8813]

Hmmm... I guess I goofed.

I was looking at your team as one of the ones to consider. I didn't really feel like looking up the stats on every player on every team, so I started with a quick approximation based on how good I remembered players being, then looked at the stats for the top 3 teams based on that quick assessment. The names of your players just didn't seem as impressive to me.

I'll look over your team as well.

[tearforamariner]

Hmmm... I guess I goofed.

I was looking at your team as one of the ones to consider. I didn't really feel like looking up the stats on every player on every team, so I started with a quick approximation based on how good I remembered players being, then looked at the stats for the top 3 teams based on that quick assessment. The names of your players just didn't seem as impressive to me.

I'll look over your team as well.

Okay thanks. By the way, not impresed by Foxx, Cobb, or Shoeless Joe?

[Wade8813]

I am impressed by them, it's just that for hitting; Piazza, Hornsby, Sisler, and no weak links stood out more (I-Rod and Cronin are good, but are a bit worse).

I'm curious - are you using a 6 man rotation?

[tearforamariner]

I am impressed by them, it's just that for hitting; Piazza, Hornsby, Sisler, and no weak links stood out more (I-Rod and Cronin are good, but are a bit worse).

I'm curious - are you using a 6 man rotation?

Perry is my spot starter. I will be having a 5 man rotation. As for Pudge, if I started Chance there instead, would that impress you more? (This puts my OPS+ over 170, by the way).

[Windy City Fan]

That's true, and is certainly something to factor.

What's their SB%? Because I'm fairly sure getting thrown out on base hurts more than a successful SB helps (especially with big hitting teams - you're taking the bat out of a better hitter's hands).

Henderson had an 80% rate. Robinson is 77%. Mays is 67%, about break even. Speaker only at 56%. Davis is unknown. Of course, Speaker and Davis playing a modern style game would've been more selective - resulting in perhaps less raw steals, but a better percentage. Their percentages were a product of their times.

[Washizzle Express]

That's true, and is certainly something to factor.

What's their SB%? Because I'm fairly sure getting thrown out on base hurts more than a successful SB helps (especially with big hitting teams - you're taking the bat out of a better hitter's hands).

Washizzle could have made his team better for both the sim AND the draft, but he was too busy screwing around.

And no matter how unfair it might be, it doesn't really matter too much if his OPS comes from one guy, or five guys. He still gets that much more production from his team. The only exception is if Bonds gets injured, he loses a lot more than if his OPS+ was spread out more. But I can't vote using the assumption that Bonds will get injured for an extended period of time, because the odds are that he won't.

If I replaced Bonds with Crawford, I would still have an OPS+ of 142, which is still higher than a few teams. So it's not like my team is bonds and a bunch of minor leaguers. My two lowest OPS+ guys have an OPS+ of 136 and 138. If you use zone rating for defense (using edgar's career 3rd base marks because he played DH the entire '96 season), I only have 2 players with below average fielding. My teams ZR is 33.68, whereas the average combined ZR for those seasons was 32.03. So my defense is so absurdly average that I'm fine with it. On my bench i have 4 players with over 37 steals, with 1 having 87, and one having 129. I also have a guy with 39HR, and a guy with the name of "Ducky". How can you pick against the ducky?

While my Relief Pitching doesn't have many well-known names, they all are capable of finishing the 9th, and there isn't a big drop-of top to bottom. Do I know how good my starters will be in the sim? NO, but i don't really know how the sim will deal with batting vs. pitching. So I decided I would go after a team with enough offense to make up for subpar pitching.

[Wade8813]

As for Pudge, if I started Chance there instead, would that impress you more? (This puts my OPS+ over 170, by the way). The hitting would certainly impress me more. I don't know a lot about the defense, but I'd guess Pudge's is better. Would it make me vote for you? No. Would it help? :shrug:

Henderson had an 80% rate. Robinson is 77%. Mays is 67%, about break even. Speaker only at 56%. Davis is unknown. Of course, Speaker and Davis playing a modern style game would've been more selective - resulting in perhaps less raw steals, but a better percentage. Their percentages were a product of their times. True, but I have a feeling that the sim doesn't take that into account quite as much as you hope. And I understand that I don't have to vote the way I think the sim will do things, I think the break even point is higher when you're dealing with teams that have so much more hitting than real teams - and out is taking the bat away from batters that on average are better than on actual teams.

[Windy City Fan]

The hitting would certainly impress me more. I don't know a lot about the defense, but I'd guess Pudge's is better. Would it make me vote for you? No. Would it help? :shrug:

True, but I have a feeling that the sim doesn't take that into account quite as much as you hope. And I understand that I don't have to vote the way I think the sim will do things, I think the break even point is higher when you're dealing with teams that have so much more hitting than real teams - and out is taking the bat away from batters that on average are better than on actual teams.

Actually, the run scoring enviroment should be fairly average. There's a lot of raw talent in this league obviously, but that will result in everyone's numbers being flattened closer to the middle values. We have not only excellent hitting, but also excellent pitching. So a runner caught isn't more or less harmful in this league than it would be in a historical context.

I'm not sure how this sim will handle baserunning between eras. I know in Diamondmind, you are able to set each player's likelyhood to run. I had Cobb in one sim and set his likelyhood to run at a lower level and it resulted in a still decent amount of steals (30ish if I recall) and a good success rate. I don't know if this sim has the ability and if Erik will allow us to set individual instructions/managing preferences for players or for our teams as whole. But as you said, you don't have to vote based on what the sim will or won't do. If the sim doesn't adjust for baserunning between eras, it is a flaw and that flaw should not be carried over to the voters here.

[plask_stirlac]

Actually, the run scoring enviroment should be fairly average.

I think it will be high.

Washizzle's offense aside, no problems there, his pitching and defense will have to step it up to keep pace with most other teams in those categories.

[Wade8813]

Actually, the run scoring enviroment should be fairly average. There's a lot of raw talent in this league obviously, but that will result in everyone's numbers being flattened closer to the middle values. We have not only excellent hitting, but also excellent pitching. So a runner caught isn't more or less harmful in this league than it would be in a historical context. Except I'm fairly sure increases in both batting and pitching, on the scale we have, will tend to increase the offense more. You only have one pitcher at a time, so improving pitching only can do so much. With batting, you ipmrove all 9 (8 in the NL). A great pitcher might give up an average of 2.5 runs per nine innings in a season - which means against more or less average teams (some are better, some are worse, and over a season it tends to average out). That same pitcher would generally give up more runs if he only played against the better teams, and even more runs against an All-Star team. He'll give up a lot more runs than that against All-Time teams.

Washizzle's offense aside, no problems there, his pitching and defense will have to step it up to keep pace with most other teams in those categories. His pitching could certainly be better, but I don't think it's as bad as you say. I won't really get into fielding, because I've yet to find a way to measure it that I think works.

[Minstrel]

To me, it's between El Halo, Windy City Fan and The Dude.

I like Windy City Fan's lineup the best, El Halo's pitching staff the best and The Dude has a nice balance. In the end, I went with Windy City Fan, as his staff is pretty strong and supplements a great lineup.

[tearforamariner]

The hitting would certainly impress me more. I don't know a lot about the defense, but I'd guess Pudge's is better. Would it make me vote for you? No. Would it help? :shrug:


I would never do that, I was just pointing out that I also have a bench.

For me, I think I have the most well-balanced team.


I have a great lineup, great rotation, and pretty good defense (except for the -24 FRAA of Chipper Jones).

[Wade8813]

I like Windy City Fan's lineup the best, El Halo's pitching staff the best and The Dude has a nice balance. In the end, I went with Windy City Fan, as his staff is pretty strong and supplements a great lineup. I still don't see how you can take WCF's lineup over Washizzle's. To each his own, I guess...

[tearforamariner]

I still don't see how you can take WCF's lineup over Washizzle's. To each his own, I guess...

You talk about my lineup only having a few guys that are dangerous. Washizzle has two guys that are really dangerous, and that's really it.

[Wade8813]

He has one guy that's more dangerous than almost everyone in existence, one guy that's really dangerous, and a bunch of guys that are fairly dangerous. And none of them are weak hitters.

I don't have a problem with the number of good hitters in your lineup - I just underestimated your team when I glanced at it.

[tearforamariner]

He has one guy that's more dangerous than almost everyone in existence, one guy that's really dangerous, and a bunch of guys that are fairly dangerous. And none of them are weak hitters.

Yet I have weak hitters?

His catcher has an OPS+ 1.3 times better than league average and I have a catcher who has an OPS+ is 1.2 times better than league average. By the way, Ivan Rodriguez is a MUCH better fielder and more than overcomes that .1 difference.

Appling and Cronin's OPS+ are both about 1.4 times better than league average.

[Wade8813]

Ivan and Cronin seemed like weak hitters (for this level of players) in my initial evaluation. As I've said, I'm reconsidering your team.

[tearforamariner]

Ivan and Cronin seemed like weak hitters (for this level of players) in my initial evaluation. As I've said, I'm reconsidering your team.

Also, you are basing your assessment completely on hitting. Washizzle's team is far from great at fielding, and in that aspect, it will struggle to keep up with the league.

[The Splendid Splinter]

whats wrong with my team? whats my weakness?

[The Splendid Splinter]

Also, you are basing your assessment completely on hitting. Washizzle's team is far from great at fielding, and in that aspect, it will struggle to keep up with the league.

and dont forget his pitching too...

[Wade8813]

Also, you are basing your assessment completely on hitting. Washizzle's team is far from great at fielding, and in that aspect, it will struggle to keep up with the league. Fielding is certainly an issue, but his isn't horrible, and hitting is worth about 5x as much.

whats wrong with my team? whats my weakness? I don't see anything really wrong, but others seem better.

and dont forget his pitching too... Our discussion is about lineups, at the moment.

[The Splendid Splinter]

Our discussion is about lineups, at the moment.

yes thats true. but this is from the very first post on this thread.

"Remember, these are all teams in one league, fighting through a full season to reach the playoffs and then the best playing each other for the pennant. Consider offense, fielding, starting pitching and relief pitching with the weightings that you think each carries for ultimate success in real life."

you gotta consider everything when looking at a team. and also consider the stadium if they had one. but if you think the offense weighs a lot for you, then that's you. I would disagree with you on that part, but it's what you think. I agree with you on Washizzle's offense it's nice, one of the best in our league. But with his pitching and defense brings him down though and other teams beat him there and where their offense is just a tad bit below Washizzle.

[Wade8813]

yes thats true. but this is from the very first post on this thread.

"Remember, these are all teams in one league, fighting through a full season to reach the playoffs and then the best playing each other for the pennant. Consider offense, fielding, starting pitching and relief pitching with the weightings that you think each carries for ultimate success in real life."

you gotta consider everything when looking at a team. and also consider the stadium if they had one. but if you think the offense weighs a lot for you, then that's you. I would disagree with you on that part, but it's what you think. I agree with you on Washizzle's offense it's nice, one of the best in our league. But with his pitching and defense brings him down though and other teams beat him there and where their offense is just a tad bit below Washizzle. Everything I've heard is that hitting is about 50% of the equation, pitching is about 40%, and fielding is about 10%. I don't think his pitching is as bad as you guys do.

And I haven't seen a single batting order that is close (although I haven't thoroughly looked at all of them yet).


And let me reiterate - I haven't decided to vote for him.

[The Splendid Splinter]

Everything I've heard is that hitting is about 50% of the equation, pitching is about 40%, and fielding is about 10%. I don't think his pitching isn't as bad as you guys do.

And I haven't seen a single batting order that is close (although I haven't thoroughly looked at all of them yet).


And let me reiterate - I haven't decided to vote for him.


I could with my lineup put thome at 3rd base instead of dahlen and sosa instead of hamilton... with those 2 guys... my lineup would be up there with the best... but i dont do that cuz of my stadium and they dont exactly fit with my gameplan and what i want to do with my team...

and as far as the batting order or offense... you're saying you havent seen one that is close... look at CCC's and HWR's offense.

i know you havent vote for him... but you're making it like his offense is amazing when its not... he does have some holes in it...

[Wade8813]

I could with my lineup put thome at 3rd base instead of dahlen and sosa instead of hamilton... with those 2 guys... my lineup would be up there with the best... but i dont do that cuz of my stadium and they dont exactly fit with my gameplan and what i want to do with my team... You'd certainly have more hitting if you did that.

and as far as the batting order or offense... you're saying you havent seen one that is close... look at CCC's and HWR's offense. Washizzle has more than 40 more OPS+ than HWR - that's about the difference between Gehrig, and the worst hitter on his team. That's a fairly sizable margin.

I haven't looked at CCC's stats yet. Looking up stats for a lot of players is time consuming. Maybe tomorrow.

i know you havent vote for him... but you're making it like his offense is amazing when its not... he does have some holes in it... I'm not sure what you mean by 'holes'. He has a catcher and a SS, both of whom are at over a 130 OPS+. Many teams have something along those lines (or worse) at those positions.

[The Splendid Splinter]

You'd certainly have more hitting if you did that.

how would i have more hitting? if you mean by power, then yes. but thats about the only upgrade i would have by putting those 2 in.

[Wade8813]

I mean a combination of power and getting on base. So yes, more power certainly adds to your hitting.

[The Splendid Splinter]

I mean a combination of power and getting on base. So yes, more power certainly adds to your hitting.

i actually lose on getting on base... both hamilton and dahlen combined have higher OBP than sosa/thome..... its just only power. plus im playing in shibe which is a pitcher park so OBP is more important to my team.

[Wade8813]

i actually lose on getting on base... both hamilton and dahlen combined have higher OBP than sosa/thome..... its just only power. plus im playing in shibe which is a pitcher park so OBP is more important to my team. You gain a lot more power than you lose in OB. Also, being a pitcher's park doesn't necessarily help OB more than power - different pitcher's parks help (or hurt) different aspects of hitting. They even affect them differently from year to year.

[tearforamariner]

Fielding is certainly an issue, but his isn't horrible.



Are you kidding me? He quite probably has the worst defense in the league. the seven players I could calculate FRAA for (Edgar wasn't a third basemen that season, and this will probably cause Washizzle's team fielding to just absolutely suck), his team FRAA is -48. This means that, according to FRAA, Washizzle's defense is 48 fielding runs BELOW average. Yeah, horrible is the word I would use to describe it.

In fact, the only two players on his team who had positive FRAAs were Carlton Fisk with 3 and Jeff Kent with 2. In comparison, my catcher alone has an FRAA of 23.

His Average ERA+ for starters: 155, Mine: 159

His Average ERA+ for relievers: 170, Mine: 223

His team FRAA (minus Edgar): -48, Mine: 25 (not great, but clearly superior to Washizzle)

His Average OPS+: 176, Mine: 165.

Now, I believe this tells almost the whole picture (haven't look at speed, but I'm pretty sure I have him beat in that). His average player's OPS+ is only 11 points higher than mine (which might sound like a lot, but again, his players are about 1.8 times better than the league average player, mine are 1.7). I have a team FRAA that is SEVENTY THREE RUNS HIGHER than Washizzle's, and that's without including how bad Edgar is going to be in the field. Our starting pitchers are about even, and my bull pen is significantly better than his. .

[plask_stirlac]

Remember it's going by career defense with age taken into account. Also this draft is really meant to convey these guys in their prime and peak, it's just that primes can't be put in a sim.

[tearforamariner]

With recent developments about defense, I've decided to bench both Joe Cronin and Ivan Rodriguez and start Frank Chance and Harvey Kuenn.

My team's average OPS+ is now 172. I think this firmly puts me in the same category on offense as Washizzle.

[Washizzle Express]

Since you have been using FRAA to discuss fielding, I only feel that it would be justified to determine how good at batting you are by using BRAA. My BRAA is 526, and yours is 501. Which means that if we throw in FRAA, my lineups RAA is 479, and yours is 470. So my teams line-up is still better than yours from an overall stand point. If we decide to use the Formula mentioned before, where (.5)B+(.4)P+(.1)D, where B=batting(BRAA), P=pitching(PRAA), and D=defense(FRAA), my team would be ((.5)(526))+((.4)(131))+((.1)(-47))=(263)+(52.4)+(-4.7)=310.7. I have no idea how that fits into other team's rankings, as I have only done it with my own, but the raw data would suggest that my team would give up 84 less runs while scoring 526 more. Which is pretty impressive.

[tearforamariner]

Since you have been using FRAA to discuss fielding, I only feel that it would be justified to determine how good at batting you are by using BRAA. My BRAA is 526, and yours is 501. Which means that if we throw in FRAA, my lineups RAA is 479, and yours is 470. So my teams line-up is still better than yours from an overall stand point. If we decide to use the Formula mentioned before, where (.5)B+(.4)P+(.1)D, where B=batting(BRAA), P=pitching(PRAA), and D=defense(FRAA), my team would be ((.5)(526))+((.4)(131))+((.1)(-47))=(263)+(52.4)+(-4.7)=310.7. I have no idea how that fits into other team's rankings, as I have only done it with my own, but the raw data would suggest that my team would give up 84 less runs while scoring 526 more. Which is pretty impressive.

And since you feel it's justified to include BRAA to determine batting, let's use PRAA to determine pitching. My team's PRAA is 250, yours is 223. Added to 470, my team's RAA now is 720, yours is 702. My team has an edge now. Like I said, I feel my team is more complete than yours.

[Wade8813]

And I can believe that, that your team is better than his. I'm just saying you guys aren't giving him his due.

Although I'm suspicious of FRAA because I've seen the results it gives for some players, and don't know anything about BRAA or PRAA.

[Washizzle Express]

And since you feel it's justified to include BRAA to determine batting, let's use PRAA to determine pitching. My team's PRAA is 250, yours is 223. Added to 470, my team's RAA now is 720, yours is 702. My team has an edge now. Like I said, I feel my team is more complete than yours.

Mine: ((.5)(526))+((.4)(131))+((.1)(-47))=(263)+(52.4)+(-4.7)=310.7
Yours: ((.5)(501))+((.4)(134))+((.1)(-31))=(250.5)+(53.6)+(-3.1)=301

This dosn't include relievers, or your spot starter as we cannot determine if the starters would be injured. relief is hard to determine the actual value of, as we don't know how often they will actually pitch. This would conclude that the comparison is almost a virtual wash, and i like my team better because there's a guy named Ducky on it. Plus, i figure these will mostly be high scoring ballgames and my team has more firepower.

[tearforamariner]

And I can believe that, that your team is better than his. But as I've said time and again, you guys aren't giving him his due.

Although I'm suspicious of FRAA because I've seen the results it gives for some players, and don't know anything about BRAA or PRAA.

I agree about this post. I think Washizzle has a great team. strong on hitting, very solid on starting (a lot like my starting 5), He's weak on relief pitching, and weak on fielding. He's definitely a contender.

[Williamsburg2599]

Looks like WCF is the popular champion. Congratulations.

[Wade8813]

Well, I never decided who I'd vote for, and I still don't know...:rolleyes:

[Windy City Fan]

Looks like WCF is the popular champion. Congratulations.

Thank you, thank you. *bows*

Seriously, there are a lot of good teams. I will be interesting to see what the sim says.

[Williamsburg2599]

Thank you, thank you. *bows*

Seriously, there are a lot of good teams. I will be interesting to see what the sim says.

Especally with all the unique ballparks interacting with the stats. Should be interesting.

[ElHalo]

Remember it's going by career defense with age taken into account.
Be honest with you, if I'd known this, I would have drafted very, very differently. There are quite a few guys I didn't go with because the one fantastic offensive year I wanted happened to be an anomolously bad defensive year in the middle of a spectacular defensive career (this is still the reason why I moved Hack Wilson into the lineup over Max Carey).

[Williamsburg2599]

When's the sim start?

[Westlake]

When's the sim start?

The sim hasnt even started in the AL, and we finished weeks before you guys. :cry:

[plask_stirlac]

Be honest with you, if I'd known this, I would have drafted very, very differently. There are quite a few guys I didn't go with because the one fantastic offensive year I wanted happened to be an anomolously bad defensive year in the middle of a spectacular defensive career (this is still the reason why I moved Hack Wilson into the lineup over Max Carey).

Yeah I asked Erik Bedard after about 7 rounds and he said this, I had heard it mentioned but perhaps not clearly enough.

I'm thinking things will still go fine and 85% of the time things will be the same with career grade, basically.

And then I mention it in the opinion thread, when we're trying to get these guys in their prime but it's still opinion, if someone's sim year is great and 14 FRAA or whatever they can sell it as they wish. Career D is also quite broad even for peak.

[The Splendid Splinter]

Be honest with you, if I'd known this, I would have drafted very, very differently. There are quite a few guys I didn't go with because the one fantastic offensive year I wanted happened to be an anomolously bad defensive year in the middle of a spectacular defensive career (this is still the reason why I moved Hack Wilson into the lineup over Max Carey).

Remember it's going by career defense with age taken into account. Also this draft is really meant to convey these guys in their prime and peak, it's just that primes can't be put in a sim.

i would've drafted differently too with a couple players.

[The Splendid Splinter]

we cant start the sim cuz im gonna change years with some guys now since i know how we're rating defense...

[Erik Bedard]

The sim starts as soon as I finish inputting all the rosters. I'm almost done the AL, and the NL is in the same league (in order to have a WS at the end of the season), so it can't really get started until I finish up. The AL should be done sometime this week, and if I work real hard on the NL, I may finish up in a few weeks.

[Williamsburg2599]

How's it going, EB?