Larry Doby

[catbox_9]

Everyone knows about Jackie Robinson today but what about Doby? He only started a few months later and played longer. You could even argue Doby was a better player. He went through the same stuff yet he took years to get into the HOF while Robinson didn't.

[Edgartohof]

Lary Doby is one of my favorite players. And often times, he is forgotten.

He was a very good player in his time in the league, holding a 136 OPS+ (a 4 point advantage over Jackie). He also led the league in HR's TWICE, both in '52 and '54, and was top 10 in HR's, 5 other times. In fact, he was the only player in the AL to hit 30+ HR's in 1954. He never won an MVP, but he came in second in '54, behind Yogi Berra. He was also a fairly good defensive CF in his time as well.

So I think it's good to bring him up for discussion now and again, just so people don't forget him.

[Sean Casey]

I'm kind of getting tired of all this hype. On the surface, I understand that it's intended to honor Jackie Robinson, but it's so obvious that this whole thing is largely a marketing tool to attract the black community to Major League Baseball. Then again, I suppose that's what we've come to expect from Bud $elig.

[Edgartohof]

I'm kind of getting tired of all this hype. On the surface, I understand that it's intended to honor Jackie Robinson, but it's so obvious that this whole thing is largely a marketing tool to attract the black community to Major League Baseball. Then again, I suppose that's what we've come to expect from Bud $elig.

Umm.... I didn't realize that catbox_9 worked for Selig. So I guess that this thread which is for LARRY DOBY is just well placed propaganda for $elig?

I don't think we need to here that kind of stuff - at least not in here, where it totally takes away from a great player, and has NOTHING to do with the topic on hand. Seriously, have some respect.

[Sean Casey]

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say - I'm not disagreeing with anyone, in fact I fully agree that Doby deserves more recognition. What I was responding to was the fact that Robinson gets a great deal of attention largely because baseball wants to use his legacy to get blacks more interested in baseball.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Everyone knows about Jackie Robinson today but what about Doby? He only started a few months later and played longer. You could even argue Doby was a better player. He went through the same stuff yet he took years to get into the HOF while Robinson didn't.


Larry is forgotten. OK, the difference Jackie was there on opening day, Larry near mid season if I recall. Other than that Larry played in some of the same cities as Jackie did. N.Y Jackie's home base but Larry a visitor there, also Boston, Philadelphia, St Louis and Chicago. I am sure Larry was subject to some of the same abuse that Jackie was.

[bryanac625]

I'm kind of getting tired of all this hype. On the surface, I understand that it's intended to honor Jackie Robinson, but it's so obvious that this whole thing is largely a marketing tool to attract the black community to Major League Baseball. Then again, I suppose that's what we've come to expect from Bud $elig.

I think Jackie Robinson deserves all the praise he gets for what he did. He's my hero.

Personally, I'd rather hear about Jackie Robinson Day- honoring a man who wanted to bring people together- honoring the man and all he achieved- than hear about stories like Don Imus and his stupid comments, which leave people divided.

[Sean Casey]

I think Jackie Robinson deserves all the praise he gets for what he did. He's my hero.

Personally, I'd rather hear about Jackie Robinson Day- honoring a man who wanted to bring people together- honoring the man and all he achieved- than hear about stories like Don Imus and his stupid comments, which leave people divided.

Again, I'm not saying that Robinson isn't deserving of this....just that MLB's true motives seem pretty clear with this whole Jackie Robinson Day publicity. On the other hand, Doby receives very little attention, even though he had to put up with the same kind of harassment that Jackie went through. He may not have been the first, but that doesn't mean that things were any easier for him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say - I'm not disagreeing with anyone, in fact I fully agree that Doby deserves more recognition. What I was responding to was the fact that Robinson gets a great deal of attention largely because baseball wants to use his legacy to get blacks more interested in baseball.

And what's wrong with that? :confused:

[catbox_9]

Like a few of us have suggested, Doby deserves more recognition. I was at Dodger Stadium today and had to listen to Selig, Aaron, Mrs. Robinson, Frank Robinson, and a bunch of others talk and NONE of the so much as mentioned Larry Doby. I tried mentioning it to a couple of fans and it almost started a fight because I was obviously a racist for trying to take anything away from Robinson.

My favorite is Robinson was a first ballot HOFer yet Doby needed the VC to get in? How can Robinson be so obvious a HOFer but not Doby? Doby played in the MLs longer and put up similar (or in my opinion better) numbers than Robinson. It all happened so long ago that nobody even knows anything about the two. They showed the highlight of Robinson stealing home in the World Series (he was out) after every inning. That and breaking the color barrier is all he's known for. A couple of times the scoreboard reminded us he stole home a "record" (it didn't say record but everyone assumed it meant to) 19 times. I also told a few fans that Ty Cobb (and others) shattered that record. Again I was clearly a racist for bringing up Cobb (a racist) on Jackie Robinson day.

Robinson was great but he gets too much credit. It'd be like trying to say the U.S. got its independence from Britain thanks to George Washington and only George Washington.

[Sean Casey]

and what's wrong with that? :confused:

I guess I just don't understand why it has to be so race-based. If baseball wants to regain its credibility, then I think it needs to take a real look at some of the things that have drawn fans away from the game (steroids controversy, high ticket prices, etc.) rather than simply focusing on a single race.

[Sean Casey]

I think one of the main reasons why Robinson received so much more attention is that he played in New York, and generally events that occur in New York are given less publicity in the media than equal or greater events that occur elsewhere.

Sadly, the first reaction when someone questions the amount of publicity that Robinson receives is to call that person a racist. Bob Feller, for instance has been accused of racism because he questioned just how good of a player Robinson really was. These critics of Feller's, however, ignore the fact that he displayed tremendous respect for Larry Doby and other black players who he played with and against during his career.

[catbox_9]

You're right, it is too bad. If you look at the actual numbers I can see why Feller would question his abilities. Imagine the following fictional player:
10 seasons, 1525 hits, 280 doubles, 55 triples, 140 HRs, 750 RBIs, 200 SBs, .313 BA, .410 OBP, .475 SLG%, 133 OPS+ Would he be a HOFer? I'd say no and every one of those numbers is better than Robinson's. He belongs in the HOF but I think he'd be a better choice as a contributer and not a player.

I'm not trying to disrespect Robinson at all but I think he along with Nolan Ryan and Babe Ruth are very overrated. Ryan was a great pitcher but had plenty of faults, Robinson was one of the most important players the game has ever known but he gets too much credit where others get so little, and Ruth is without a doubt one of the 5 best of all-time (I rank him 2nd) but he is not far, far better than any one else ever (as so commonly thought).

[williamaUFL]

It is easy and often justifiable to accuse Major League Baseball of promoting idealism and social consciousness within their own self-interests (money and fans). However, no matter their motive (and in this case I found it absolutely genuine), acknowledging and educating a market of 40,000 fans in a stadium plus millions via television and the internet is too good an opportunity to pass up. My point is who cares? We had the opportunity to hear Hank Aaron, Joe Morgan, Rachel Robinson, Frank Robinson, Don Newcombe and many others talk about something that is culturally relevent! That in itself is a rarity for the wasteland that usually is television. It would be nice, however, to see some respect and attention paid to Larry Doby.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I think one of the main reasons why Robinson received so much more attention is that he played in New York, and generally events that occur in New York are given less publicity in the media than equal or greater events that occur elsewhere.
.

I understand that Sean and I did touch on that in my previous post, (post #6) that Jackie played in NY and was there on opening day and that Larry's was a different case.

Still, my point Doby is seldom ever mentioned except on these boards. I did not watch the whole Sunday night game but another poster did say that Doby's name never came up.

[Mattingly]

catbox_9, just a few questions:

Are you or were you ever an employee of Bud Selig?

Please describe Larry Doby the ballplayer. Not just his stats, but what did he do on the basepaths? How did he interact with the Cleveland fans, where he'd played his first 9 seasons? How did they feel about him overall?

Lastly, would you like this thread here in CE or under History?

[catbox_9]

I'm not an employee, nor have I ever been an employee for Selig.

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Doby. I know he was the second African American to play in the modern era, the second to manage, and he also played in Japan (joining Newcombe as the only 2 to play in the Negro Leagues, ML, and Japan). From what I understand he was treated like Robinson and possibly worse because Robinson was a bigger name so people that wanted to support African Americans in baseball were able to support Robinson. Also, New York is a much more diverse city which also helped Robinson. The two put up numbers that I consider similar and I believe it's an outrage that Robinson is such an easy HOF choice while Doby was not.

I think this belongs in current events since the whole point of the thread is to talk about 4/15/07 and Larry Doby.

[bigtrain]

[QUOTE=williamaUFL;870572]However, no matter their motive (and in this case I found it absolutely genuine), acknowledging and educating a market of 40,000 fans in a stadium plus millions via television and the internet is too good an opportunity to pass up.[QUOTE]

Educate? Who is being educated. MLB is giving this Moses quality when in fact Jackie was a cog, a rather large cog in the machine that broke down the racial barrier that existed in baseball.

MLB isn't telling the whole integration story. It seems they just want you to believe the story begins and ends with Jackie. As someone who read about Jackie as a child and wanted to learn more, I did. I learned about Larry, and Roy, Don, and Satchell... Then to have MLB celebrate only Jackie is insulting. They are basically dumbing down the whole truth. And the truely sad thing is you DO have people calling you racist because you KNOW Jackie wasn't the best, just the first. Why, because MLB educated those people as to Jackie being the greatest thing ever. End of story.

If you want to celebrate Jackie and his accomplishments, by all means do some. His achievement reaches beyond baseball. But as long as we are talking baseball do not forget the others who followed and helped fight the good fight.

[catbox_9]

[QUOTE=williamaUFL;870572]However, no matter their motive (and in this case I found it absolutely genuine), acknowledging and educating a market of 40,000 fans in a stadium plus millions via television and the internet is too good an opportunity to pass up.[QUOTE]

Educate? Who is being educated. MLB is giving this Moses quality when in fact Jackie was a cog, a rather large cog in the machine that broke down the racial barrier that existed in baseball.

MLB isn't telling the whole integration story. It seems they just want you to believe the story begins and ends with Jackie. As someone who read about Jackie as a child and wanted to learn more, I did. I learned about Larry, and Roy, Don, and Satchell... Then to have MLB celebrate only Jackie is insulting. They are basically dumbing down the whole truth. And the truely sad thing is you DO have people calling you racist because you KNOW Jackie wasn't the best, just the first. Why, because MLB educated those people as to Jackie being the greatest thing ever. End of story.

If you want to celebrate Jackie and his accomplishments, by all means do some. His achievement reaches beyond baseball. But as long as we are talking baseball do not forget the others who followed and helped fight the good fight.

If you really want to get technical, Robinson wasn't even the first to play MLB. Moses Fleetwood Walker beat him by 63 years.

[bryanac625]

Doby deserves more recognition. I was at Dodger Stadium today and had to listen to Selig, Aaron, Mrs. Robinson, Frank Robinson, and a bunch of others talk and NONE of the so much as mentioned Larry Doby. I tried mentioning it to a couple of fans and it almost started a fight because I was obviously a racist for trying to take anything away from Robinson.

My favorite is Robinson was a first ballot HOFer yet Doby needed the VC to get in? Doby played in the MLs longer and put up similar (or in my opinion better) numbers than Robinson. It all happened so long ago that nobody even knows anything about the two... breaking the color barrier is all he's known for. A couple of times the scoreboard reminded us he stole home a "record" (it didn't say record but everyone assumed it meant to) 19 times. I also told a few fans that Ty Cobb (and others) shattered that record. Again I was clearly a racist for bringing up Cobb (a racist) on Jackie Robinson day.

Robinson was great but he gets too much credit.

I think there are a number of understandable reasons Jackie Robinson overshadows Larry Doby.

Robinson was first, period. He was also a star athlete (football, basketball, baseball) at UCLA. There was a lot of buildup and hype towards his coming to baseball. And a lot of news was made even when he was signed to play for the Montreal Royals. Doby only played for the Newark Eagles before the Indians. I believe Robinson made a bigger name for himself on his way to the majors.

Robinson was an outspoken man who commanded a presence, on and off the baseball field. He was a social activist and the way he played the game and lived his life made it impossible to ignore him. Larry Doby was a much more quiet, gentle person, by his own admission. He was not an outspoken person.

Robinson was an otspoken man who played on the biggest stage in sports- New York City. He also played at the time when the three New York teams- Brooklyn, the Yankees, the Giants- were in the World Series every year. Larry Doby was a quiet man who played in a smaller market.

Our society does have a tendency to overdo celebration. But Jackie Robinson Day was about Jackie Robinson, not Larry Doby. Going to Dodger Stadium on Jackie Robinson Day and complaining while you were there about the lack of recognition given to Doby is like going to KFC and complaining about why they don't have cheeseburgers.

[Zito75]

I've got a Starting Lineup Doby figure someplace in my collection- I really think much justice is due to him. He's a true hero.

[redlegsfan21]

In government class today, we were talking about Jackie Robinson and I told my class that I thought Robinson was overrated based on the fact that there were other black ballplayers that debut in 1947. Larry Doby definitly needs to be remembered for the same things that Robinson did.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I think there are a number of understandable reasons Jackie Robinson overshadows Larry Doby.


Our society does have a tendency to overdo celebration. But Jackie Robinson Day was about Jackie Robinson, not Larry Doby. Going to Dodger Stadium on Jackie Robinson Day and complaining while you were there about the lack of recognition given to Doby is like going to KFC and complaining about why they don't have cheeseburgers.

BRYANAC, pardon my partial deletion of your post but I want to reply to what remains. BTW I did read your entire post.

My point and the point of many others is that Larry Doby has been very seldom even mentioned, not just in the last few days, over the years.

Also no one at least not I thought that Larry should have been part of Jackie's day... but to not even mention his name.

If you notice much of the posting is not in reference to Larry not being mentioned on Jackie's day but they speak of the little mention of him over the years.

[mojorisin71]

What did the Indians do in 1997 to mark the 50th anniversary of Larry Doby's debut? What do they plan on doing this year (I understand that the Indians are on the road July 5, which is the 60th anniversary of Doby's first game with the Trive)

[bryanac625]

BRYANAC, pardon my partial deletion of your post but I want to reply to what remains. BTW I did read your entire post.

My point and the point of many others is that Larry Doby has been very seldom even mentioned, not just in the last few days, over the years.

Also no one at least not I thought that Larry should have been part of Jackie's day... but to not even mention his name.

If you notice much of the posting is not in reference to Larry not being mentioned on Jackie's day but they speak of the little mention of him over the years.

It's important to remember that history does not have a balance sheet. But I'm not saying that Doby's integration of the American League was not important... it was absolutely important. But he was not the statement maker Jackie Robinson was. And, if it means anything, he hit 5-for-32 in his first 29 games- not exactly making a great impression, as Robinson did.

If Larry Doby had been outspoken, won the AL Rookie of the Year Award (like Robinson did in the NL) and electrified the ballpark like Robinson did, then he would be as well remembered.

I'm sorry folks, but when you compare Doby's stats with Jackie Robinson, it's clear that he just did not make an impact in 1947. I think he was a great person and I believe he was a nice man... just not a memorable one.

Larry Doby, 1947:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
29 32 3 5 1 0 0 2 6 1 11 0 0 .182 .188 .156

Jackie Robinson, 1947:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB OBP SLG AVG
151 590 125 175 31 5 12 48 252 74 36 29 .368 .427 .297

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It's important to remember that history does not have a balance sheet. But I'm not saying that Doby's integration of the American League was not important... it was absolutely important. But he was not the statement maker Jackie Robinson was. And, if it means anything, he hit 5-for-32 in his first 29 games- not exactly making a great impression, as Robinson did.
If Larry Doby had been outspoken, won the AL Rookie of the Year Award (like Robinson did in the NL) and electrified the ballpark like Robinson did, then he would be as well remembered.

I'm sorry folks, but when you compare Doby's stats with Jackie Robinson, it's clear that he just did not make an impact in 1947. I think he was a great person and I believe he was a nice man... just not a memorable one.

Larry Doby, 1947:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
29 32 3 5 1 0 0 2 6 1 11 0 0 .182 .188 .156

Jackie Robinson, 1947:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB OBP SLG AVG
151 590 125 175 31 5 12 48 252 74 36 29 .368 .427 .297


Thats not much of a test or a statement by you. So Larry hit 5 for 32 in his first season obvious thats not much of a test. When he became a regular in 1948 he showed he could play the game and play it good. Lets face it if Jackie hit .250 in his first season we would still be celebrating the 60th year anniversary of the first black in the game. The celebration was noted not because of the great year Jackie had in 1947 it was because he was the first black in the game.

Your not getting it. All we are saying is at the least "over all the past several years" Larry's entrance into the game has not even been mentioned, even though he played in some of the same cities as Jackie and it was no picnic. No one is saying that Larry should over shadow Jackie and what he did, what he meant to the game. Just recognize Larry after all he came into the game only months after Jackie.

They both played their positions well but little is even mentioned of how Larry ranked.

From 1947 to 1959 ranking the centerfielders in both leagues
Larry was second in doubles
5th in triples
3rd in home runs
2nd in EBHs
2nd in walks
3rd in total bases
2nd in RBIs
2nd in OBA
He did strike out the most but he certainly made the most out of it when making contact as the above numbers show.

It appears you and I are on different pages, not taking anything away from Jackie. No one can diminish Jackie but at least Larry could have been given more attention for his situation in the AL.

[bigtime39]

I don't remember what Cleveland did for Larry Doby in 1997, but they had a lot on their plate that year, with Jackie's 50th and the All-Star Game.
Doby deserves recognition as the first black player in the American League. (Remember, it was two leagues back then, like the pre-merger NFL and AFL, not this two "leagues" under one umbrella we have now.)
I don't know that it matters what MLB does at this point to win black fans back to the game. They're gone, perhaps for good. African-Americans have chosen basketball and football as their two primary sports, and baseball has fallen to a distant third. They weren't forced out, they just walked away. I don't expect them back in large numbers anytime soon.

[bryanac625]

Your not getting it. All we are saying is at the least "over all the past several years" Larry's entrance into the game has not even been mentioned, even though he played in some of the same cities as Jackie and it was no picnic. No one is saying that Larry should over shadow Jackie and what he did, what he meant to the game. Just recognize Larry after all he came into the game only months after Jackie.

It appears you and I are on different pages, not taking anything away from Jackie. No one can diminish Jackie but at least Larry could have been given more attention for his situation in the AL.

I get it that Doby was a great player. I completely understand he had his own integration cross to bear. But what people here fail to understand is that Jackie Robinson Day, celebrating the 60th anniversary of the day one man stood alone to break baseball's color barrier, was a day about Jackie Robinson.

Larry Doby deserves- really, needs- to be honored for his accomplishments. But the place for that was not on JRD. But I understand the Indians are putting together a special day for him. Will it be appropriate to bring up Jackie Robinson on Larry Doby Day?

You know, this whole thing reminds me of another situation, another debate I've seen online. Saving Private Ryan and Flags of Our Fathers , etc. are films that have been criticized for blacking out- that is they did not include any blacks, and the movies make it look like WWII was won without them. Defenders of the filmmakers' choices to leave out blacks say that these movies were not about blacks- "Flags was about the men who raised the Flag on Iwo Jima," or "Band of Brothers was about the men of Easy Company."

I've got this feeling like some of the people here who are upset that a day established to honor one man's courage 60 years ago at Ebbets Field, because the organizers and speakers of JRD failed to mention another man who was nowhere to be found at that place on that day 60 years ago, are some of the same people who would say that these WWII movies don't have to show blacks. Did any of you criticize Private Ryan for not featuring any of the African_American soldiers who spent that day unloading ammunition, food, medical supplies and repair parts from the landing craft onto the beach? Or Flags for not featuring Marine Sgt. Thomas McPhatter, who gave the first flag raisers a piece of pipe to tie the flag to?

I just wonder about consistency here.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I get it that Doby was a great player. I completely understand he had his own integration cross to bear. But what people here fail to understand is that Jackie Robinson Day, celebrating the 60th anniversary of the day one man stood alone to break baseball's color barrier, was a day about Jackie Robinson.

Larry Doby deserves- really, needs- to be honored for his accomplishments. But the place for that was not on JRD. But I understand the Indians are putting together a special day for him. Will it be appropriate to bring up Jackie Robinson on Larry Doby Day?

You know, this whole thing reminds me of another situation, another debate I've seen online. Saving Private Ryan and Flags of Our Fathers , etc. are films that have been criticized for blacking out- that is they did not include any blacks, and the movies make it look like WWII was won without them. Defenders of the filmmakers' choices to leave out blacks say that these movies were not about blacks- "Flags was about the men who raised the Flag on Iwo Jima," or "Band of Brothers was about the men of Easy Company."

I've got this feeling like some of the people here who are upset that a day established to honor one man's courage 60 years ago at Ebbets Field, because the organizers and speakers of JRD failed to mention another man who was nowhere to be found at that place on that day 60 years ago, are some of the same people who would say that these WWII movies don't have to show blacks. Did any of you criticize Private Ryan for not featuring any of the African_American soldiers who spent that day unloading ammunition, food, medical supplies and repair parts from the landing craft onto the beach? Or Flags for not featuring Marine Sgt. Thomas McPhatter, who gave the first flag raisers a piece of pipe to tie the flag to?

I just wonder about consistency here.


Believe it or not, I did not see either movie but I will say it was wrong that they did not show the part, the big part that blacks played in the victory of the allies in that war.

[bryanac625]

I don't know that it matters what MLB does at this point to win black fans back to the game. They're gone, perhaps for good. African-Americans have chosen basketball and football as their two primary sports, and baseball has fallen to a distant third. They weren't forced out, they just walked away. I don't expect them back in large numbers anytime soon.

Well, this black man who loves baseball isn't going anywhere.

I've been a fan of the game for over 25 years. My teams are the Orioles and the Nationals, and I'm with them in good times and bad. I've been to ballparks across the country. In fact, I've seen blacks at every baseball game I've ever been to, most recently Cooper Stadium in Columbus, OH (AAA Clippers). I've often taken young children to games with me. I've been ridiculed by others for liking baseball, not because I'm black, but so many people have never hesitated to tell me how much they can't stand the game.

I will always be a baseball fan. Regardless of what some guy told me once that he didn't expect baseball to be around in any form much longer. Regardless of my brother-in-law's comments, that he "hates that sh!t!" a comment he chose to share in front of his children.