Please help analyze 12 yo's swing.

[DukeK]

http://home.comcast.net/~johnpav/Jace_Swing_2_04142007.gif
http://home.comcast.net/~johnpav/Jace_Swing_1_04142007.gif

2 swings, one missed high, one missed low.

I see bat drag which I can work on by perhaps starting him with his back elbow higher ( as I read in previous threads). I also see he perhaps has his hands cast out too far when he swings and I don't like his bat plane at the beginning of his swing. I could probably work on the initial part of his swing by having hit off a tee, which he hasn't done much of this year.

Any help, suggestions, drills would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[tom.guerry]

Same pull pattern (Dixon) as the 10yo swing - see other thread.

Go figure.

For example as slapper 23 said there:

"Some of my kids were doing the same thing as the boy...leaving their hands behind. The hips are opening but there is no direct connection of the lead arm to the front shoulder. If you stood behind him and held onto the bat barrel, asked him to begin his swing, once the hips began rotating you would not feel any pull on the bat. He loses connection, IMO. He really bars the lead arm in the process of leaving his hands behind. It's "hips then hands", not "hips, pause, pause, hands", if you see what I mean. I show my kids what they're doing, then show them how to correct this while telling them once the hips lead, everything turns together. If he connected better, say by frame 5 or 5.5, he could wait longer and have more time to read the pitch, IMO."

Slapper also called this "top hand dominance".

The top hand dominance and test where you pull on the bat are both points of emphasis from Lau Jr.

As slapper says, figure out how they do what they are doing and how to do what the mlb hitter does, then teach them to get from here to there without detouring anymore than necessary into other destinations.

I think Epstein (based on Williams) is the best suited of the widely available methods/systems for this particular starting point. The lower body is fairly close to being in the envelope, even though there is the typical pull pattern preference for stepping in the bucket, getting the weight forward to clear out and pull the bat through. Then the arms take over and the hitter leans back to limit deceleration.

The cure/"fix" for this is a swing powered by "body torque" as Epstein describes it, and as/more importantly, learned in the context of each swing being about how you adjust on the fly (key to adjustment including the Williams concept of using upsloping swing to adjust/optimize contact zone).

Interesting difference in approaches between Nyman based approach where "guideline"/"building code" would require closed front foot where as Epstein includes open front foot.

Lau Jr prefers closed front foot. So does Dixon.

Peavy focusses on "lead arm pull", but like lau Jr, a "pull" that does not come from shoulder "turn", pull with arms not shoulders.

How do they pull that lead arm without using shoulder turn ?

What is the back arm doing ? How does that relate to top hand dominance ?

Confusing, isn't it ?

Answers here are key to avoiding the PCR spinhook detour.

Figure them out yourself ?

Trust someone else ?

Take some hacks yourself ?

Look at video ?

[DukeK]

I'm having a hard time seeing where his hands disconnect. Here's a couple of frames showing where his hips start to rotate. His hands appear to start forward the same time his hips rotate to me, but I'm no expert. Please explain in more detail if you could.

http://home.comcast.net/~johnpav/JS1.jpg

Thanks,

[dannyboy]

2 cents:



http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bothbelow.jpg

[BoardMember]

LOL Tom, "that ought to fix it!"

Like I said, "there goes the neighborhood"......

Duke, like many others kids I've seen, your son is losing control of the bat very early in the swing. So what exactly does that mean? Instead of leaving you hanging, I'll explain in simple terms.

The second clip is the most telling, as the pitch is inside vs. away like the first clip, as indicated by the position of the catchers mitt when receiving the ball.

Watch his hand-path very carefully(in both swings). The bat-head swing-arc peeks VERY EARLY in the swing, causing a very wide path, and an upper-cut into contact. In essence, the bat-head gets way below plane WAY TOO EARLY in the swing.

This is why HiddenGem talks about "swinging down to the ball".

I'm at work, so I don't have vid analysis until tonight, but here is something for you to watch:

http://home.comcast.net/~johnpav/Jace_Swing_1_04142007.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/PujolsAlbert3.gif

If you were to put a HIGH TEE behind your son, say right off the back point of the plate, he would "take it out" everytime. Picture a HIGH TEE placed behind pujols. Can you see the difference in hand-path and bat-head path to contact? I'm not nescessarily advocating a "high and behind tee drill" but using this as a visual for you.

Pujols moves his hands "forward and down" to contact, with the bat peaking the bottom of the arc path "just before contact".

In order to do this, the hand path moves "forward" connected to the rear shoulder, and then "downward" into contact as his shoulder "turns the corner" and reaches the "mid-line of his body", instead of "downward and forward" to contact like your son.

Moving "forward and downward" to contact allows the hitter to "maintain control" of the path and bat during the swing, and into contact, and also serves to tighten the path to a more efficient pattern.

I also want you to watch one more thing in the Pujols clip. Notice how he turns the barrel with the "top hand" into and through contact.

Turning the barrel into contact will "shift the gear" from just before contact into finish, creating a path similar to the one you see in Pujols.

I'm sure you'll get many more opinions on what is happening in his swing, so I would caution you NOT to incorporate TOO much TOO soon.

One last point, that you may or may not want to address. Your son's counter-rotation(inward turn) of the lead shoulder in my opinion is bordering on TOO much at his age for this reason. Turning the shoulder in too far can cause and "early peak" to the swing arc if he begins the move the bat at max-counter rotation, because he is closed, which moves the swing-arc peak rear-ward in the swing.

Hope I made it "simple" for you to understand what I see, and how to improve the swing and contact.

Best Regards.............

[swingbuster]

It is hard to play baseball with the hands that darned DEAD. His hands never came cocked soon enough. I have never seen a kid hit when he did not have the hands come really cocked at foot plant.

He lost what little hinge angle/ wrist cock that he had at heel drop

The hinge angle / wrist to forearm must be 90 degrees and the lead elbow 90 degrees in the set up if you are going to start dead. The lead elbow will have to stay back behind the belly button to toe touch

You CAN start dead but you better have the levers cocked to fire

That is part of what caused the casting

As soon as you cast the barrel ( outside the target line) the lead shoulder HAS to rotate away from the ball to advance the barrel. IT is not physically possible for the front shoulder to stay on the ball when the wrist angle breaks down and the barrel cast

The hands will have to get above , inside and more in front of the ball before contact. The knob must get out to his hip pocket with the barrel still in the lag phase to hit for power

That is a slow way to swing the bat.

His hands need to find the barrel IMO if he is able to make some changes. The first thing I would do would be to have him tip the hands ( small muscle movement patterns) and move that barrel to and fro and find where it is and get that feeling in his HANDS .

find that barrel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAjIO0_JTI


What is the goal here? Pop the whip on the ball or swing your body real fast....

[DukeK]

He lost what little hinge angle/ wrist cock that he had at heel drop

The hinge angle / wrist to forearm must be 90 degrees and the lead elbow 90 degrees in the set up if you are going to start dead. The lead elbow will have to stay back behind the belly button to toe touch

You CAN start dead but you better have the levers cocked to fire

That is part of what caused the casting

As soon as you cast the barrel ( outside the target line) the lead shoulder HAS to rotate away from the ball to advance the barrel. IT is not physically possible for the front shoulder to stay on the ball when the wrist angle breaks down and the barrel cast

The hands will have to get above , inside and more in front of the ball before contact. The knob must get out to his hip pocket with the barrel still in the lag phase to hit for power


Anyway you or somebody else can show me that with some pictures?

[TG Coach]

I noticed someone mentioned bat drag and a long swing. He's also starting his hands forward before his front leg is planted. His hips may also be opening before he plants.

[swingbuster]

The hands will have to get above , inside and more in front of the ball before contact. The knob must get out to his hip pocket with the barrel still in the lag phase to hit for power

Anyway you or somebody else can show me that with some pictures?


Watch this dude

http://www.swingscience.com/videos/basic-use.html

get the release out front and then you can further advance by getting the swing diagonal and look for the low ball but use some shoulder tilt ( not level shoulders and rear elbow extension like the above guy)

[BoardMember]

Anyway you or somebody else can show me that with some pictures?

Maybe this will help you:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2yzbtqd.gif

[dannyboy]

DukeK,
listen to BoardMember.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/2ndenginebreakdown.jpg


also,

referring to your second post (post #3 in this thread), please compare frames 5 and 6, and toggle them back and forth, back and forth.

bottom line: his wrists/forearms are sloppy. strengthening them will help, along with one arm (lead arm) practice, to keep bat more in line with lead forearm.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/edgarleadarm.gif

[swingbuster]

bottom line: his wrists/forearms are sloppy. strengthening them will help, along with one arm (lead arm) practice, to keep bat more in line with lead forearm.

And note you cannot leverage the lead arm without some well timed weight shift..see back side release

[jima]

BM, for what its worth, that was the best two posts I've seen from you during my short time reading posts on this site...the first Pujols' clip was great and your explanation of the issues surrounding the young man's swing were understandable. (i realize that your just clammoring for my approval :waving) jima

[BoardMember]

Thx for kind words jima. :thumbsup:

BM, for what its worth, that was the best two posts I've seen from you during my short time reading posts on this site...the first Pujols' clip was great and your explanation of the issues surrounding the young man's swing were understandable. (i realize that your just clammoring for my approval :waving) jima

[DukeK]

Great stuff guys.

We tried some high tee/low tee work yesterday.

I appreciate the time you guys put into this, keep it coming!

Thanks,

[tom.guerry]

Let's look at the two very different swing patterns in BM's comparison:

MLB pattern powered by "body torque"/torso stretch:

Bat "tips" or "cocks" frames 1-4, "shows front sole",then

Frames 5-7 - starts "untipping"/"uncocking" or "getting a running start" at frame 5. Some would call this beginning of "rotation" or "coiling" or "separation" or "horizontal loading" or "x factor" or "rubber band winding",etc.

Front knee begins "turning open"/"flaring"/external rotation of front leg/femur.

Bat is turned by torquing handle between hands.

Lower body starts opening in sequence, first the front leg, then the hips, then the bak leg.

Hands "stay back".

Frames 8-10, "drop and tilt"/"lag" - Around frame #8, the shoulders "tilt". At the same time. the hips are "initiated from the front" (using weight flowing to front foot as "base"/"pivot").

This is the result of the "go decision". Some people say this is where "rotation begins".

For a couple of frames, separation INCREASES ("x-factpr stretch") as the upper body resists opening with the hips, primarily by "tilting" of the shoulders to set up the swing plane. Shoulders had to be prepared for this by tilting front shoulder down much earlier in the swing (part of "vertical loading").

Torso stretch is maxed out about frame #10. then it is only about 3 frames to contact. The swing can be checked almost this late, depending on the umps interpretation of what an "offer" looks like.

Notice at frame #10, about the "lag" position, the hands have still not come away from the back shoulder.

reactive forces are demonstrated by back foot action as a further clue to what is going on.

I have described the kids "pull pattern" before. Hands are coming away from back shoulder by frames 6-7. Consistent torso stretch is not possible after this.

Kid: 7 frames from here to contact.

very different pattern.

[LClifton]

Duke,

Some pretty good overall movements are found in this swing.
For example, I think his stride is pretty darn good.
He moves out pretty well as opposed to just sticking his lead leg out there.

Just a couple of observations.
He moves his feet a little before he "sets" to load.
If he has been hit a couple of times this could account for that.???
This small movement may make his load a little rushed.
If he is rushed a little he has no time really to sync up his unloading.
This rushing could cause enough of a timing issue to cause more havoc in the swing---- with the arms basically collapsing.

Here's what I mean regarding the arms,
The look of it is like he senses he is not quite done with his upper body load therefore he must cut it short. Without a complete load (perhaps due to starting the load late) may account for the loosenes in the arms.

In layman's terms,
"They are left behind because he wasn't done with his upper body load, particularly the rear shoulder."

As you study the clips, take note of the way Pujols' rear elbow works. I like the way your son moves his elbow back. If he were to work it up at the same time (and earlier, so as to be prepared on time) I am thinking the unload would function and look much better.

Last thought,
Many kids swing a bat that is heavier than they can handle.
I'm not saying that is the case here.
But, perhaps some BP with a bat that is much lighter for 2 reasons:

1) It would enhance his ability to "handle the bat"
2) Keep him from getting fatiqued early would equate to more quality BP swings.

Then, as has been mentioned, once his wrist, forearm strength is enhanced he could move to something heavier.

Just for your consideration I made a clip that shows the position of the hands, elbows, and bat angle just before swing launch.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/load.gif

Does the lead arm in these clips stay pretty much at its orginal angle or become extended?
The lead arm stays pretty much at its orginal state (slight bend)

What then moves the bat to a (basically) 45 degree angle?
Rear elbow working up and back.
What do the shoulders look like as a partial result of this loading?
Tilted slightly in and down.
(Duke, I'm not saying emulate these particular swings in whole as I think that BM did a good job of syncing your son's swing to Pujols. Rather notice the rear elbow moves to load the rear shoulder to completion and as a result the bat is moved to a nice 45 degree angle,,,in preparation to unleash--- due to that full, complete, timely load)

[DukeK]

Thanks again for the replies. His head coach & I have worked with him a bit and we'll try a lighter bat. We've got a couple of games this weekend so we'll see how it goes.

BoardMember - I appreciate you taking the time to synch the clips of Pujols and my son. What software did you use to do that?

LClifton - Thanks also for your input. Same question for you, what software did you use to combine those clips?

[BoardMember]

No problem Duke.

Ulead Gif Animator 5.0........

Thanks again for the replies. His head coach & I have worked with him a bit and we'll try a lighter bat. We've got a couple of games this weekend so we'll see how it goes.

BoardMember - I appreciate you taking the time to synch the clips of Pujols and my son. What software did you use to do that?

LClifton - Thanks also for your input. Same question for you, what software did you use to combine those clips?

[LClifton]

Thanks again for the replies. His head coach & I have worked with him a bit and we'll try a lighter bat. We've got a couple of games this weekend so we'll see how it goes.

BoardMember - I appreciate you taking the time to synch the clips of Pujols and my son. What software did you use to do that?

LClifton - Thanks also for your input. Same question for you, what software did you use to combine those clips?

Ulead Gif animator.

http://www.ulead.com/ga/runme.htm

[BoardMember]

Great minds think alike.......

Ulead Gif animator.

http://www.ulead.com/ga/runme.htm