No. 600 or 756?

[Appling]

Which will cause you to celebrate more:
Sammy Sosa hitting his career #600 homeruns, or
Barry Bonds hitting # 756?

And which event will happen first?

[NYMets523]

Sosa will probably hit 600 first because he only needs 10 more and plays in a bandbox. I won't celebrate either. Both were rumored to have taken steroids (and probably did). Plus Bonds is a jerk.

[Westlake]

Definately Bonds.

[Skin & Bones]

I went with Bonds. I like him as a player, and he's definately one of the best that ever lived. Sosa I don't care about - He's always been grossly overrated, and to me has always been a phoney.

[redlegsfan21]

756>600

All that needs to be said.

[John Shoemaker]

Sosa will probably hit 600 first because he only needs 10 more and plays in a bandbox. I won't celebrate either. Both were rumored to have taken steroids (and probably did). Plus Bonds is a jerk.


That's just what they are -rumers. I'll celebrate both.

[bigtrain]

I wouldn't have a problem if either of them suffered a career ending injury soon.

[Old Sweater]

Sosa may find himself on the bench hitting against leftys only soon. So far Sosa is lucky that Frank Catalanotto isn't doing much better.

.175ba with a .195 obp is going to try any managers patience.

[Colorado Express]

It's hard for me to celebrate/enjoy either milestone as I'm not really fond of either player.

[Skin & Bones]

I wouldn't have a problem if either of them suffered a career ending injury soon.


http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=869055&postcount=7

[Erik Bedard]

I challenge anyone to find me one piece of hard evidence supporting claims that Sammy Sosa ever used steroids.

[John Shoemaker]

I challenge anyone to find me one piece of hard evidence supporting claims that Sammy Sosa ever used steroids.

I don't think there is any evidence.

[Old Sweater]

I don't think there is any evidence.


Smoking gun no. I believe in the existence of Bigfoot more then Sosa not juicing though.

[SRO]

Plus Bonds is a jerk.

Are you under the impression that this sport has a long and proud history of great individuals?

[KCGHOST]

Not a big fan of either player.

[Seattle1]

Smoking gun no. I believe in the existence of Bigfoot more then Sosa not juicing though.

That is a funny way to put it, lol. I'll second that statement (and I don't believe in bigfoot one bit).

[AMG]

I'm looking forward to seeing Sosa hit #600.

I have a morbid curiosity about Bonds hitting 756. The potential aftermath intrigues me.

[TRfromBR]

I went with Bonds. I like him as a player, and he's definately one of the best that ever lived. Sosa I don't care about - He's always been grossly overrated, and to me has always been a phoney.

And Bonds is not a phony? He's been lying and cheating to the entire world for the last decade? You don't really believe his fraudulent denials about not using PED's, do you?

[Mattingly]

And Bonds is not a phony? He's been lying and cheating to the entire world for the last decade? You don't really believe his fraudulent denials about not using PED's, do you?
Of course I do. He'd even said that he never "knowingly" took them. Could've been the dog ate his homework or something. Gotta be some kind of excuse.

Sosa and Palmeiro went into major power outages. If he's clean now, that's fine, but that doesn't mean he'd have been anywhere near 600 if he hadn't used some kind of juice. I don't have any hard evidence, but when it comes to "do you believe him or don't you?" then I'd simply say that I don't believe him.

By the way, what's that green stuff you'd Photoshopped onto Bonds? Is he the Jolly Green Giant? Shrek? Man from Mars? The 50-foot man who ate Pac Bell (and had Candlestick for lunch)?

Here's the only kind of "juice" I find acceptable:

http://www.floridajuice.com/images/img_grapefruit_juice.jpg

[Skin & Bones]

And Bonds is not a phony? He's been lying and cheating to the entire world for the last decade? You don't really believe his fraudulent denials about not using PED's, do you?

Phoney as in the way he reacts to the public. Bonds tells it like it is - He's not ashamed of voicing his opinions, and he doesn't pretend to be a nice guy, and then later do despicable things like Sosa has. Sosa has always been completely phoney - The smiling and constant media butt kissing, the donating to charities which he later " allegedly " was stealing from, etc.

http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202000/Sosacharity.htm

PED'S/cheating really doesn't matter to me as much as others, just in terms of ranking players. I may dock someone for doing something that enhances his game, legal or illegal, but I wouldn't want his records stripped, nor banned from the HOF. Bonds certainly isn't the only one who has cheated in baseball history, and certainly not the only one who's statistics benfitted from a form of cheating. There's enough evidence out there to believe doctoring the ball, using Greenies, and even corking your bat can have a large effect on performance just like steroids, and I don't see anyone calling for Perry's, Schmidt's, and Cash's numbers to be erased. Creatine, a legal performance enhancing drug can also have a gigantic effect on enhancing one's performance - Steroid Expert Dr. Charles E. Yesalis discusses this problem in Howard Bryant's fantastic book " Juicin' the Game ", and he personally believes the drug should be banned because it has effective performance enhancing attributes - Look no further than Brady Anderson who admitted to taking copious amounts of Creatine in 1996, the year he hit 50 homeruns ( which he never came close to approaching before and after).

[TRfromBR]

Bonds tells it like it is ...

PED'S/cheating really doesn't matter to me as much as others, just in terms of ranking players. I may dock someone for doing something that enhances his game, legal or illegal, but I wouldn't want his records stripped, nor banned from the HOF.

Bonds certainly isn't the only one who has cheated in baseball history, and certainly not the only one who's statistics benfitted from a form of cheating. There's enough evidence out there to believe doctoring the ball, using Greenies, and even corking your bat can have a large effect on performance just like steroids, and I don't see anyone calling for Perry's, Schmidt's, and Cash's numbers to be erased.

Creatine, a legal performance enhancing drug can also have a gigantic effect on enhancing one's performance - Steroid Expert Dr. Charles E. Yesalis discusses this problem in Howard Bryant's fantastic book " Juicin' the Game ", and he personally believes the drug should be banned because it has effective performance enhancing attributes - Look no further than Brady Anderson who admitted to taking copious amounts of Creatine in 1996, the year he hit 50 homeruns ( which he never came close to approaching before and after).

Bonds is defiant, no doubt. But, he does not "tell it like it is." That's the whole point - he has been lying for years about his massive use of PED's.

McGwire, Sosa, and anyone else found to have used PED's in the breaking of landmark Baseball records must be stripped of those records. Not just Bonds. If Anderson can boost his production so high, just imagine what it did for those guys. Bonds never hit a ball further 450' before he started massively juicing up. Now, in his old (baseball) age, he's hit around 40 that distance. It undermines all credibility of his "records." And we all know he did it.

I've read scientific articles maintaining that a corked bat is not nearly as much help to a power hitter as it is to a control hitter. But I know they're banned, ss that rule should be strictly enforced, too. But, they did examine all of Sosa's 70 or so bats and found nothing, except with his batting practice bat. They did try to prove that. Of course, he's likely done PED's, too. But, the immediate problems are Bonds and McGwire.

I understand your position, but I don't think the nature and severity of Bonds' offenses can be condoned.

[TRfromBR]

By the way, what's that green stuff you'd Photoshopped onto Bonds? Is he the Jolly Green Giant? Shrek? Man from Mars? The 50-foot man who ate Pac Bell (and had Candlestick for lunch)?



Someone "Hulked" him up, I guess, and put him out on the web for all of us to enjoy. If it's not photoshopped, then someone caught him on a day where he had either took too many greenies, or when he was green with envy over all the praise Ruth keeps getting despite his bogus 73 & 715.

[Skin & Bones]

Bonds is defiant, no doubt. But, he does not "tell it like it is." That's the whole point - he has been lying for years about his massive use of PED's.

McGwire, Sosa, and anyone else found to have used PED's in the breaking of landmark Baseball records must be stripped of those records. Not just Bonds.
If Anderson can boost his production so high, just imagine what it did for those guys. Bonds never hit a ball further 450' before he started massively juicing up. Now, in his old (baseball) age, he's hit around 40 that distance. It undermines all credibility of his "records." And we all know he did it.

I've read scientific articles maintaining that a corked bat is not nearly as much help to a power hitter as it is to a control hitter. But I know they're banned, ss that rule should be strictly enforced, too. But, they did examine all of Sosa's 70 or so bats and found nothing, except with his batting practice bat. They did try to prove that. Of course, he's likely done PED's, too. But, the immediate problems are Bonds and McGwire.

I understand your position, but I don't think the nature and severity of Bonds' offenses can be condoned.

Well, first of all, records can't be " stripped ". That's damn near impossible - How are you going to erase every statistic of the pitchers Bonds has faced. And I've already pointed out that Anderson boosted his performance on creatine, not steroids - So this begs a question - Are you against Illegal PED'S, or all PED'S in general? Would you loathe Bonds if he took copious amounts of creatine to boost his play? or is it just roids?

As to homerun distance, it still can't be accurately measured, and even if it could be, that's a weak arguement. You can use all sorts of statistics to prove Bonds massive increase in production, " homerun distances " is the weakest byfar.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05245/564674.stm


And actually, Bonds does tell it like it is. Again, does he pretend to like someone when he actually doesn't? Does he smile to the camera, blows kisses, hops, and then later walks out in the middle of a game? Bonds is who he is, Sosa was and has always been a huge fake.

As to corked bats, I've read some articles claiming they don't help, and some claiming they do - I've also read the same regarding steroids. IMO, it's best to look at the numbers of users. Cash, when he corked, suddenly was hitting like Albert Pujols, after that, he was still very good, but nothing close to being the best hitter in the league.

And I don't think I've ever condoned Bonds behavior - Taking steroids is wrong. My stance is - Get rid of them, punish the ones who are breaking the rules now, and make the " proper adjustments " to past users statistics when ranking them. Leave the records alone, and recognize whatever records you want.

[Skin & Bones]

And I should point out that Bonds faced roided up pitchers during his chase of 73 and 755, and that needs to be taken into account - Unless of course you are among the few who still believe pitchers don't gain a lot from roids, despite massive amounts of evidence proving that they do...

[TRfromBR]

Well, first of all, records can't be " stripped ". That's damn near impossible - How are you going to erase every statistic of the pitchers Bonds has faced. And I've already pointed out that Anderson boosted his performance on creatine, not steroids - So this begs a question - Are you against Illegal PED'S, or all PED'S in general? Would you loathe Bonds if he took copious amounts of creatine to boost his play? or is it just roids?

As to homerun distance, it still can't be accurately measured, and even if it could be, that's a weak arguement. You can use all sorts of statistics to prove Bonds massive increase in production, " homerun distances " is the weakest byfar.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05245/564674.stm


And actually, Bonds does tell it like it is. Again, does he pretend to like someone when he actually doesn't? Does he smile to the camera, blows kisses, hops, and then later walks out in the middle of a game? Bonds is who he is, Sosa was and has always been a huge fake.

As to corked bats, I've read some articles claiming they don't help, and some claiming they do - I've also read the same regarding steroids. IMO, it's best to look at the numbers of users. Cash, when he corked, suddenly was hitting like Albert Pujols, after that, he was still very good, but nothing close to being the best hitter in the league.

And I don't think I've ever condoned Bonds behavior - Taking steroids is wrong. My stance is - Get rid of them, punish the ones who are breaking the rules now, and make the " proper adjustments " to past users statistics when ranking them. Leave the records alone, and recognize whatever records you want.


It's very easy to strip a home run record. If MLB receives evidence that Bonds has been a regular user of steroids, HGH, and other PED's since the late '90s, then his home run "records" can (and should) be invalidated. alidation. Use of any prohibited PED should lead to invalidation.

With concern to Brady Bunch Anderson, if Creatine was prohibited when he used it, then any records he may have should be invalidated, also. I don't know if it was prohibited to use Creatine at that time, nor do I know if it's been formally established that he did use it. But, since he has broken no significant records, to my knowledge, there's far less reason or urgency to address his performance. Bonds, McGwire & Sosa present far different, and far more urgent, circumstances.

Thanks for the article, but I don't see how that lessens the significance of the dramatically increased distances of Bonds' longest home runs since he got involved with BALCO. He's hit about 40 over 450' since employing BALCO, and none over 450' before that time.

Finally, your insistence that he always "tells it like it is" is beyond my comprehension. He's been brazenly lying and cheating every day for about a decade. The way I see it, not calling him on that is indeed condonation of both his lies and his cheating.

[Skin & Bones]

It's very easy to strip a home run record. If MLB receives evidence that Bonds has been a regular user of steroids, HGH, and other PED's since the late '90s, then his home run "records" can (and should) be invalidated. alidation. Use of any prohibited PED should lead to invalidation.

With concern to Brady Bunch Anderson, if Creatine was prohibited when he used it, then any records he may have should be invalidated, also. I don't know if it was prohibited to use Creatine at that time, nor do I know if it's been formally established that he did use it. But, since he has broken no significant records, to my knowledge, there's far less reason or urgency to address his performance. Bonds, McGwire & Sosa present far different, and far more urgent, circumstances.

Thanks for the article, but I don't see how that lessens the significance of the dramatically increased distances of Bonds' longest home runs since he got involved with BALCO. He's hit about 40 over 450' since employing BALCO, and none over 450' before that time.

Finally, your insistence that he always "tells it like it is" is beyond my comprehension. He's been brazenly lying and cheating every day for about a decade. The way I see it, not calling him on that is indeed condonation of both his lies and his cheating.

No, it isn't easy to strip a homerun record. I've already explained why. And if you can't understand why, so be it.

As to the article, the point is homerun distances are historically inaccurate, so Bonds supposedly hitting homeruns " further " is not some sort of concrete fact. Bonds hitting more homeruns frequently is, not actually hitting them further.

And why does Bonds not admit steroid use? Geez, maybe it has to do with them being illegal? That he can go to jail? If Mike Piazza was doing cocaine, do you think he'd be bragging about it knowing it's illegal? Brady Anderson sure as hell wouldn't be talking about using large amounts of creatine IF it was Illegal.

IMO, you just loathe the man, and no matter what anyone says, you'll still view him as the anti-christ of baseball. That's fine with me, so it's really not worth arguing about.

[TRfromBR]

No, it isn't easy to strip a homerun record. I've already explained why. And if you can't understand why, so be it.

As to the article, the point is homerun distances are historically inaccurate, so Bonds supposedly hitting homeruns " further " is not some sort of concrete fact. Bonds hitting more homeruns frequently is, not actually hitting them further.

And why does Bonds not admit steroid use? Geez, maybe it has to do with them being illegal? That he can go to jail? If Mike Piazza was doing cocaine, do you think he'd be bragging about it knowing it's illegal? Brady Anderson sure as hell wouldn't be talking about using large amounts of creatine IF it was Illegal.

IMO, you just loathe the man, and no matter what anyone says, you'll still view him as the anti-christ of baseball. That's fine with me, so it's really not worth arguing about.

Don't confuse my telling the truth about Bonds with "loathing the man." I'm saying the very same thing about him that I say about McGwire, or Caminetti, or Sosa, or Anderson, or whomever.

You appear to be a [once] devoted fan of his who cannot fully admit that he cheated his way to his "records." Don't place the blame on those who point out and condemn Bonds' obvious wrongdoings: Place the blame on Bonds, where it belongs.

At least you have now finally admitted that he does not always "tells it like it is" - that he is a perennial liar, perjuring himself and otherwise covering up his decade-long record of cheating.

Finally, home run records can be invalidated, and Bonds has been hitting home runs further since '98. Infact, he famously admitted that, and told reporters he didn't know why, that they should "Call God and ask him why." Despite that blasphemy, I've never believed he's the anti-Christ, as you say - the anti-Christ wouldn't require performance-enhancing drugs.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Well, lost in all the noise, Craig Biggio is 56 hits away from Number 3000.

Also, Omar Vizquel needs 17 hits to reach 2500 for his career.

Griffey needs 21 dingers to tie McGwire, and 16 more than that to reach 600.

Manny is 30 away from 500 homers. Former teammate Jim Thome is just three dingers behind Manny. Frank Thomas needs 12 to reach that figure.

Tom Glavine, of course, is closing in on 300 Wins.

Lots of players that I will be rooting for this season.

[west coast orange and black]

maybe more difficult than first thought

[Captain Cold Nose]

maybe more difficult than first thought

Now I can remember why I don't miss straight tech writing anymore. Is that part A-1a or part A-1b? Counter or clockwise?

[Kline's Ghost]

I'll say....Tom Glavine's 300th win

[John Shoemaker]

Well, lost in all the noise, Craig Biggio is 56 hits away from Number 3000.

Also, Omar Vizquel needs 17 hits to reach 2500 for his career.

Griffey needs 21 dingers to tie McGwire, and 16 more than that to reach 600.

Manny is 30 away from 500 homers. Former teammate Jim Thome is just three dingers behind Manny. Frank Thomas needs 12 to reach that figure.

Tom Glavine, of course, is closing in on 300 Wins.

Lots of players that I will be rooting for this season.

I agree with everything you said. Also - Sammy Sosa will probably get to 600 this year before Griffy does and the way A-Rod is going (9 HR's already) he may be the first to get to 500 this year. It's going to be a great year!

[west coast orange and black]

ccn: Is that part A-1a or part A-1b? Counter or clockwise?

your guess is better'n mine. :shrug:

[Skin & Bones]

Don't confuse my telling the truth about Bonds with "loathing the man." I'm saying the very same thing about him that I say about McGwire, or Caminetti, or Sosa, or Anderson, or whomever.

You appear to be a [once] devoted fan of his who cannot fully admit that he cheated his way to his "records." Don't place the blame on those who point out and condemn Bonds' obvious wrongdoings: Place the blame on Bonds, where it belongs.

At least you have now finally admitted that he does not always "tells it like it is" - that he is a perennial liar, perjuring himself and otherwise covering up his decade-long record of cheating.

Finally, home run records can be invalidated, and Bonds has been hitting home runs further since '98. Infact, he famously admitted that, and told reporters he didn't know why, that they should "Call God and ask him why." Despite that blasphemy, I've never believed he's the anti-Christ, as you say - the anti-Christ wouldn't require performance-enhancing drugs.


Now the one who's making assumptions here is you. I'm no " devoted Bonds fan ", I'm a marlins fan, and I'm not even a devoted fan of a player on my own team.

You responded to my post, so I responded to yours back, I have my opinions, you have yours. Of course, when stating mine, I don't resort to bashing the living daylights out of the player, but to each is own I guess.

And nothing you have said contains " truth " other than Bonds using steroids - You still have failed to refute ( or even acknowledge other points I've made), and you still claim you can erase records when I've already pointed out why in baseball that's impossible.

And actually, Bonds " god " comments were referred to the fact that he was hitting homeruns more frequently, not further.

And I haven't acknowledged anything you claim - He does tell it like is, and " lying " about steroid use is irrelevant to what my point was regarding that. Nobody using illegal drugs goes around bragging about it.

[Skin & Bones]

I agree with everything you said. Also - Sammy Sosa will probably get to 600 this year before Griffy does and the way A-Rod is going (9 HR's already) he may be the first to get to 500 this year. It's going to be a great year!


Although Sheffield is starting out very slow, he's not to far from 500 himself - But I doubt he reaches it this year, especially since he's never hit 44 homeruns in a single season, and has started off really slow this year.

[THE OX]

......YAWN.......! Who gives a hoot?

Neither of them, IMO, amounts to a zit on Hank's nether region.

[John Shoemaker]

Although Sheffield is starting out very slow, he's not to far from 500 himself - But I doubt he reaches it this year, especially since he's never hit 44 homeruns in a single season, and has started off really slow this year.

I'm sure he'll get to 500 but it will probably be sometime next year. Too bad he was injured most of last year or he would have made it to 500 this year.

[TRfromBR]

Now the one who's making assumptions here is you. I'm no " devoted Bonds fan ", I'm a marlins fan, and I'm not even a devoted fan of a player on my own team.

You responded to my post, so I responded to yours back, I have my opinions, you have yours. Of course, when stating mine, I don't resort to bashing the living daylights out of the player, but to each is own I guess.

And nothing you have said contains " truth " other than Bonds using steroids - You still have failed to refute ( or even acknowledge other points I've made), and you still claim you can erase records when I've already pointed out why in baseball that's impossible.

And actually, Bonds " god " comments were referred to the fact that he was hitting homeruns more frequently, not further.

And I haven't acknowledged anything you claim - He does tell it like is, and " lying " about steroid use is irrelevant to what my point was regarding that. Nobody using illegal drugs goes around bragging about it.


Let's sum it up this way:

1) Bonds has cheated his way into the record books, but you don't want to do anything about that.

2) You think he always "tells it like it is", despite the fact he's been lying for a decade about his cheating.

3) You think it's impossible to invalidate his home run record without changing the results of every game, at-bat & season he's ever participated in.

Three strikes and your out.

P.S. Bonds "god" comments were made in relation to the length of his getting longer - turning his former singles and doubles into triples. When asked about that, he admitted it was true, but that the reporters would have to "call God" for the reason why. (Strike Four).

[Skin & Bones]

Let's sum it up this way:

1) Bonds has cheated his way into the record books, but you don't want to do anything about that.

2) You think he always "tells it like it is", despite the fact he's been lying for a decade about his cheating.

3) You think it's impossible to invalidate his home run record without changing the results of every game, at-bat & season he's ever participated in.

Three strikes and your out.

P.S. Bonds "god" comments were made in relation to the length of his getting longer - turning his former singles and doubles into triples. When asked about that, he admitted it was true, but that the reporters would have to "call God" for the reason why. (Strike Four).

1.) No, I don't. It was never done to other proven cheaters, so why start now on Bonds? To do so will only cause problems, and bring Jesse Jackson and Al Sharption to the issue, which is something NOBODY wants.

2.) Bonds does tell it like it is. He doesn't like someone, he'll tell you. He may be a racist, he'll tell you. He won't keep it all bottled up inside. He doesn't hide behind a smile and some fake skip like Sosa. This is also a reason why I like Clemens. And again, the steroids issue is entirely irrelevant - It's an ILLEGAL DRUG, Why would anyone brag about using illegal drugs? Canseco didn't do so until he was retired, and he was even more cocky than Bonds.

3.) Yep.

" Three strikes and your out ", cute, very cute, but when will you refute my arguements, instead of dancing around them?

As to Bonds god comments, mind providing me a link? I could be wrong here, and if so, I want you to show me a link of these comments.

[Skin & Bones]

Bonds comments: There are some things I can't understand right now. The balls I used to line off the wall are lining out (of the park). I can't tell you why. Call God. Ask him. It's like, wow. I can't understand it, either. I try to figure it out, and I can't figure it out. So I stopped trying." - Barry Bonds, after hitting nine home runs in five games this past May
http://members.aol.com/TGJDIR1/bbgreat.htm


So, he's basically saying that he's hitting homeruns more frequently, like I said - His once doubles off the wall are now home runs, which fails to have anything to do with Bonds HOMERUNS going further than before, which is what you said.

I guess I don't strike out...:D

[Erik Bedard]

Smoking gun no. I believe in the existence of Bigfoot more then Sosa not juicing though.

That is a funny way to put it, lol. I'll second that statement (and I don't believe in bigfoot one bit).

Any particular reason you'd like to share?

Sosa's best five years were consecutively from ages 30-34, and resulted in an average of a 166 OPS+. Carl Yastrzemski's best five years were at ages 26, 28, 29, 31, and 35, and resulted in a 168 OPS+. So now Yaz was juicing? Give me a break. So what if Sosa hit more HRs? Yaz played in the greatest pitching era since the lively ball was introduced, and Sosa played in the greatest hitting era ever. For example, in 2001, Sosa's best year, Barry Bonds hit 73 HRs. Luis Gonzalez hit 57. Rich Freakin' Aurilia hit 37. I maintain that Sosa was never on steroids.

[TRfromBR]

1.) No, I don't. It was never done to other proven cheaters, so why start now on Bonds? To do so will only cause problems, and bring Jesse Jackson and Al Sharption to the issue, which is something NOBODY wants.

2.) Bonds does tell it like it is. He doesn't like someone, he'll tell you. He may be a racist, he'll tell you. He won't keep it all bottled up inside. He doesn't hide behind a smile and some fake skip like Sosa. This is also a reason why I like Clemens. And again, the steroids issue is entirely irrelevant - It's an ILLEGAL DRUG, Why would anyone brag about using illegal drugs? Canseco didn't do so until he was retired, and he was even more cocky than Bonds.

3.) Yep.

" Three strikes and your out ", cute, very cute, but when will you refute my arguements, instead of dancing around them?

As to Bonds god comments, mind providing me a link? I could be wrong here, and if so, I want you to show me a link of these comments.


[Regarding the extraordinary new power gained after taking steroids, and immediately subsequent to hitting 9 HR's in 5 days.]

In May of 2001, when Bonds was juiced to the max, he was asked by reporters why he was able to hit the ball further than earlier in his career. He answered "I don't know why. The balls I used to line off the wall now go out. I can't tell you why. Call God. Ask Him."

"Telling it like it is?"

[PsykoTom13]

this is the best article i have ever read concerning Barry Bonds


http://www.thebrushback.com/Archives/makeawish_full.htm

[TRfromBR]

1.)

Bonds does tell it like it is. He doesn't like someone, he'll tell you. He may be a racist, he'll tell you. He won't keep it all bottled up inside. He doesn't hide behind a smile and some fake skip like Sosa. This is also a reason why I like Clemens. And again, the steroids issue is entirely irrelevant - It's an ILLEGAL DRUG, Why would anyone brag about using illegal drugs? Canseco didn't do so until he was retired, and he was even more cocky than Bonds.



"Telling it like it is" and being "cocky" are not the same thing. Bonds has not "told it like it is" about the only issue that matters - his "ILLEGAL" use of performance enhancing drugs. He's too much of a cheat and coward to do so. Even accepting your argument that he just doesn't want to get locked up, then why hasn't he at least stop his fraudulent thefts of these records? In other words, he's not just covering up his past cheating - he's still cheating, most recently in his pursuit of Aaron's 755.

Finally, why do you think it's necessary to undo the results of every game Bonds ever cheated in, in order to simply invalidate his home record? It sure seems you're going way out of the way to officially sanction all his fraudulent records.

[Skin & Bones]

"Telling it like it is" and being "cocky" are not the same thing. Bonds has not "told it like it is" about the only issue that matters - his "ILLEGAL" use of performance enhancing drugs. He's too much of a cheat and coward to do so. Even accepting your argument that he just doesn't want to get locked up, then why hasn't he at least stop his fraudulent thefts of these records? In other words, he's not just covering up his past cheating - he's still cheating, most recently in his pursuit of Aaron's 755.

Finally, why do you think it's necessary to undo the results of every game Bonds ever cheated in, in order to simply invalidate his home record? It sure seems you're going way out of the way to officially sanction all his fraudulent records.



If performance enhancement was the issue, why did Bonds proudly admit to using ZMA, and being a GNC junkie?

Why doesn't ANYONE who uses illegal drugs brag about it? Can you just name who in their majorleague career talked about using steroids. Even the outspoken Canseco didn't do such a thing until he retired.

And please TR, explain to me how MLB will go about erasing His records. Please explain. What about the players who scored him in when he got on base, what about pitchers who struck him out, walked him. Please TR, explain to me your " methods " of erasing records.

I personally find it funny that instead of addressing my points, you keep harping on me being a " Bonds defender ", despite me already acknowledging that he cheated, and has lied about it. I guess I still qualify as Bonds defender until I want his records stripped, him banned from the HOF, thrown in jail, and maybe even hung. Is that it, TR?

[TRfromBR]

[QUOTE=Skin & Bones;873396] [quote]

Why doesn't ANYONE who uses illegal drugs brag about it? Can you just name who in their majorleague career talked about using steroids. Even the outspoken Canseco didn't do such a thing until he retired.

Giambi?

And please TR, explain to me how MLB will go about erasing His records. Please explain. What about the players who scored him in when he got on base, what about pitchers who struck him out, walked him. Please TR, explain to me your " methods " of erasing records.

Just invalidate his home run records, not the game records.

I personally find it funny that instead of addressing my points, you keep harping on me being a " Bonds defender ", despite me already acknowledging that he cheated, and has lied about it.

I've addressed everyone of your points. You've been shown to be wrong on every fact and issue you've disagreed on. That will always be the case, as long as you defend Bonds' past cheating, and condone his continued fraudulence,

I guess I still qualify as Bonds defender until I want his records stripped, him banned from the HOF, thrown in jail, and maybe even hung. Is that it, TR?

He's already hung himself. But, yes, you do qualify as a Bonds' defender. \


Over and out.

[Old Sweater]

Any particular reason you'd like to share?

Sosa's best five years were consecutively from ages 30-34, and resulted in an average of a 166 OPS+. Carl Yastrzemski's best five years were at ages 26, 28, 29, 31, and 35, and resulted in a 168 OPS+. So now Yaz was juicing? Give me a break. So what if Sosa hit more HRs? Yaz played in the greatest pitching era since the lively ball was introduced, and Sosa played in the greatest hitting era ever. For example, in 2001, Sosa's best year, Barry Bonds hit 73 HRs. Luis Gonzalez hit 57. Rich Freakin' Aurilia hit 37. I maintain that Sosa was never on steroids.


Well their is the little thing of never hitting over 40 hr's in a season, then hitting over 60 3 of the next 4 years. Going from 165lb to 230lb and the size of his head. Then he got cheating with the corked bat(and hasn't done crap since) which is cheating, what is one step further, with juicing. Baseball players cheat, always have always will in one way or the other, just part of baseball, IMO. You used Yaz as a comparison, Yaz had his peak years a lot closer to his rookies weight then Sosa. Same can be said for most of the older sluggers, like Mantle, Williams, Mays and Aaron. If your a natural HR hitter, you don't have to bulk up or juice, to improve your performance to the extent that Sammy did.

My main reason though applies to any of the alleged juicers, all they had to do was volunteer for a test and prove their innocence. I know I would if it was OK with the players union to get the $#%$# investigative reporters off my tail.

If you don't believe Sosa juiced that is good.

I do, and don't care. It's Sosa's quitting on the team at the end off the season that got me off the Sosa bandwaggon. Meaningless to the team, but not to all his fans in Chicago.

[ESPNFan]

If performance enhancement was the issue, why did Bonds proudly admit to using ZMA, and being a GNC junkie?


ZMA was basically the cover suppliment for the shenanigans going on at Balco. And Barry had to give a plausable reason why his body had changed so dramatically over that period of time.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ bonds is a little lighter than he was last season, a direct effect of his surguries.
but last season he was about the same size and weight as the season before that, and the season before that, and the season before that, and the season before that, and the season before that.
any idea how his dramatic size increase and maintained physique can be explained?
is zma still a plausible cover supplement?

[Skin & Bones]

[QUOTE=Skin & Bones;873396] [quote]

Why doesn't ANYONE who uses illegal drugs brag about it? Can you just name who in their majorleague career talked about using steroids. Even the outspoken Canseco didn't do such a thing until he retired.

Giambi?

And please TR, explain to me how MLB will go about erasing His records. Please explain. What about the players who scored him in when he got on base, what about pitchers who struck him out, walked him. Please TR, explain to me your " methods " of erasing records.

Just invalidate his home run records, not the game records.

I personally find it funny that instead of addressing my points, you keep harping on me being a " Bonds defender ", despite me already acknowledging that he cheated, and has lied about it.

I've addressed everyone of your points. You've been shown to be wrong on every fact and issue you've disagreed on. That will always be the case, as long as you defend Bonds' past cheating, and condone his continued fraudulence,

I guess I still qualify as Bonds defender until I want his records stripped, him banned from the HOF, thrown in jail, and maybe even hung. Is that it, TR?

He's already hung himself. But, yes, you do qualify as a Bonds' defender. \


Over and out.

Right, your stating the facts, I'm not. You are right, I'm wrong. Whatever you say buddy - The fact still stands that you have failed to refute anything I've posted, and have stooped low enough to calling me a " Bonds defender ", and yapping about him being a fraud, and what not.


You win TR, Be happy, give yourself a pat on the back.

[Skin & Bones]

And Giambi bragged about using steroids? Am I missing something?

[Erik Bedard]

Well their is the little thing of never hitting over 40 hr's in a season, then hitting over 60 3 of the next 4 years.

Rich Aurilia and Luis Gonzalez also experienced unnatural HR spikes. As did Todd Helton.

Going from 165lb to 230lb and the size of his head.

What about the size of his head? I don't recall it ever changing. But Kevin Mench has a big head, I guess he's juicing now.

Then he got cheating with the corked bat(and hasn't done crap since) which is cheating, what is one step further, with juicing.

First of all, this sentence makes no sense. Second of all, the myth that corked bats improve slugging has been disproven.

Baseball players cheat, always have always will in one way or the other, just part of baseball, IMO. You used Yaz as a comparison, Yaz had his peak years a lot closer to his rookies weight then Sosa. Same can be said for most of the older sluggers, like Mantle, Williams, Mays and Aaron. If your a natural HR hitter, you don't have to bulk up or juice, to improve your performance to the extent that Sammy did.

False logic. Babe Ruth with the Red Sox:

http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency/en/media/a/a9/babe_ruth01.jpg

Babe Ruth with the Yankees:

http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~ams22/Babe%20Ruth.jpg

Looks like his peak seasons were pretty far off his rookie weight.

My main reason though applies to any of the alleged juicers, all they had to do was volunteer for a test and prove their innocence. I know I would if it was OK with the players union to get the $#%$# investigative reporters off my tail.

And yet Sosa was tested while with the Orioles (how do you think they caught Palmeiro?), and never tested positive.

If you don't believe Sosa juiced that is good.

I do, and don't care. It's Sosa's quitting on the team at the end off the season that got me off the Sosa bandwaggon. Meaningless to the team, but not to all his fans in Chicago.

I can't argue with that, but Bonds has done much, much worse.

[west coast orange and black]

erik bedard: Sosa was tested while with the Orioles and never tested positive.

you do not know this as fact, erik.
per work agreement in place at the time, a player's positive test resulyt would not have been made public.

overall, i agree with you. and your false logic images thing involving ruth made me chuckle.

[TRfromBR]

Bonds comments:
http://members.aol.com/TGJDIR1/bbgreat.htm


So, he's basically saying that he's hitting homeruns more frequently, like I said - His once doubles off the wall are now home runs, which fails to have anything to do with Bonds HOMERUNS going further than before, which is what you said.

I guess I don't strike out...:D

Yes, he's saying he's hitting homers more frequently - BECAUSE HIS HITS ARE GOING FURTHER. Geez Louise, are you going after the all-time strike out record.

Why do you keep trying to make excuses for this guy. He couldn't care less about you.

[Erik Bedard]

erik bedard: Sosa was tested while with the Orioles and never tested positive.

you do not know this as fact, erik.
per work agreement in place at the time, a player's positive test resulyt would not have been made public.

overall, i agree with you. and your false logic images thing involving ruth made me chuckle.

In 2005, I believe a positive test result would be made public. Palmeiro's I know for sure was 2005.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

[QUOTE=Skin & Bones;873054]And actually, Bonds does tell it like it is. Again, does he pretend to like someone when he actually doesn't? Does he smile to the camera, blows kisses, hops, and then later walks out in the middle of a game? Bonds is who he is, Sosa was and has always been a huge fake.
QUOTE]

Thats a laugher. Often when some athlete make an ass out of himself some one puts a positive spin on it like... he tells it like it is. Really, he claims he's not that bad of a guy, it's that damn press, the media they finally got to me.

In one interview, he speaks of what the press has done to his family than asks that the cameras zero in on his son standing on the side.

Barry's had his foot in his mouth a number of times over the years.

Going back to the late 1990s. A simple question asked in one interview, "Barry what do you like to do when your away from the game.... Barry answers, " it's none of your business."

From 2003 on Babe Ruth... Barry says..." I wiped him out. I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs and thats it. Don't talk about him no more."

Even before Balco was in the news, asked about possible steroid use in the game. Another gem from Barry... " It's none of the peoples business what the players do."

Yea, Barry tells it like it is, thats why he is so loved. Fair or not, Barry just can't understand why he's disliked by some.

[Erik Bedard]

Why do you keep trying to make excuses for this guy. He couldn't care less about you.

And yet your heart seems set on condemning a guy you've presumably never met in your life.

[TRfromBR]

And Giambi bragged about using steroids? Am I missing something?


Unlike Bonds, I believe Giambi has confessed and agreed to testing. Bonds has done neither.

Yes, you are missing something - your ability to understand how Bonds' cheating has been so pathetically unfair to fans, and to all the players of the game through time - and most especially to Maris, Ruth, and Aaron, and any others he has fraudulently deprived of their rightful Home Run records.

Again, why is it so difficult to nullify or decertify Bonds' Home Run "record" without refiguring every at bat and game he's ever played in? I fail to see any insurmountable obstactle, especially since none of his teams ever won a Series. For extra measure, if you insist, San Francisco could also be stripped of their only pennant, in Bonds' superjuiced year of 2002.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

You want to talk many players bulking up late in their careers, that not the point.

It's about bulking up numbers, late in a career. Show me one hitter that can even appoach Barrys leap after the age of 35 over his previous seasons that was "maintained for a 4 year stretch." Never happened.

Barry had a 4 year stretch after the age of 35 that compares to some 4 year stretches put up by Babe Ruth and Ted Williams in their prime years. Does this prove he took steroids maybe not, I think he did. Thats not my point. My point, any poster that says it was not that unusual, it was done by others late in their careers, a leap like Barry's I'll believe it when it can be proven with numbers.

I guess I take that to mean it never did happened, no response. In the past I've seen posters on other threads on this board point out that Ted Williams and Hank Aaron put up some good numbers at the same age late in their career so why point the finger at Barry. That those two greats late in their career put up some numbers that equalled some they put up when younger has also been posted in the past. Thats a joke, Ted and Hank may have had some blips late in their career but Barry exploded and not only that, he maintained that explosion for a few seasons or more, after the age of 35.

Put this one to sleep along with the comparison of one season pointed out by others, Roger Maris and his 61 in 1961. Comparing Barry's explosion at the age of 36 to a one year wonder, Roger Maris a LH hitter at yankee Stadium in an expansion year and in his prime age 26, where is the comparison.

Barry's career slugging from 1986 to 2000, .567. From 2001 to 2006 was .759, this is not unusual at that age.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

And yet your heart seems set on condemning a guy you've presumably never met in your life.

That does that mean we can only evaluate for good or bad only those that we have met, I guess if thats the case we're all guilty of having a negative view of another.

[TRfromBR]

And yet your heart seems set on condemning a guy you've presumably never met in your life.

I never met the wacko from VTU either, but I condemn his actions, and all his self-serving whining, too. Vastly different scales of transgression, but the same phony, self-pitying arrogance and excuses.

Another apologist for Bonds cheating his way to the record books?

[John Shoemaker]

I don't see how anyone can enjoy a baseball game if they are constantly thinking about which players are on steroids, which pitchers are doctoring the ball, who is stealing signs in the scoreboard, who is corking their bat, etc. I think people should sit back and enjoy the great game of baseball.

[TRfromBR]

I don't see how anyone can enjoy a baseball game if they are constantly thinking about which players are on steroids, which pitchers are doctoring the ball, who is stealing signs in the scoreboard, who is corking their bat, etc. I think people should sit back and enjoy the great game of baseball.

In order to protect anything great, like Baseball, it has to be protected from corruption. Are you saying that all fans should just kick back and let everyone cheat at will? How long would the game be great if everyone thought and acted that way? (ANSWER: Not even a season.)

[Skin & Bones]

Yes, he's saying he's hitting homers more frequently - BECAUSE HIS HITS ARE GOING FURTHER. Geez Louise, are you going after the all-time strike out record.

Why do you keep trying to make excuses for this guy. He couldn't care less about you.

we were debating whether or not his homerun distances are going further, not whether not he was hitting more homeruns.

And nobody is making excuses, you just don't like when someone disagrees with your view of Bonds, so you claim they are an apologist, or making excuses.

Erik Bedard I've actually seen say he believes Bonds doesn't belong in the HOF, yet you claim he's a " Bonds apologist ", LOL, just because he points out the fact that you slam the man as if he slept with your wife.

[Skin & Bones]

Unlike Bonds, I believe Giambi has confessed and agreed to testing. Bonds has done neither.

Yes, you are missing something - your ability to understand how Bonds' cheating has been so pathetically unfair to fans, and to all the players of the game through time - and most especially to Maris, Ruth, and Aaron, and any others he has fraudulently deprived of their rightful Home Run records.

Again, why is it so difficult to nullify or decertify Bonds' Home Run "record" without refiguring every at bat and game he's ever played in? I fail to see any insurmountable obstactle, especially since none of his teams ever won a Series. For extra measure, if you insist, San Francisco could also be stripped of their only pennant, in Bonds' superjuiced year of 2002.

Actually, Bonds has agreed to testing.

Asked if he favors additional drug testing in baseball, Bonds said, "They can test me every day if they choose to."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/02/24/MNGO056V7Q1.DTL

I've never heard that come out of Giambi's mouth, or anyone elses for that matter.

And I already explained why it's difficult to ERASE the record, because then you would have to alter the statistics of every player who drove him in, and the pitchers statistics against him. If it was so easy, Selig would have done it, and talk of asterisk wouldn't exist.

And I already agreed that taking steroids is cheating, but you've still never answered my questions - Do you feel the same way about other cheats? Do you feel Perry's 300 wins is tainted by altering the ball? What about Schmidt's greenies use? What about Mays?

Why start messing with one cheats records, when you have other records already " tainted " by other players who've cheated?

[TRfromBR]

we were debating whether or not his homerun distances are going further, not whether not he was hitting more homeruns.



His hits and home runs have both been going further. Can you not admit that? Balco Barry has. Why are you arguing an argument you can't possibly win. Even Bonds acknowledges his home runs have been going further than they were before 2000.

[Skin & Bones]

[QUOTE=Skin & Bones;873054]And actually, Bonds does tell it like it is. Again, does he pretend to like someone when he actually doesn't? Does he smile to the camera, blows kisses, hops, and then later walks out in the middle of a game? Bonds is who he is, Sosa was and has always been a huge fake.
QUOTE]

Thats a laugher. Often when some athlete make an ass out of himself some one puts a positive spin on it like... he tells it like it is. Really, he claims he's not that bad of a guy, it's that damn press, the media they finally got to me.

In one interview, he speaks of what the press has done to his family than asks that the cameras zero in on his son standing on the side.

Barry's had his foot in his mouth a number of times over the years.

Going back to the late 1990s. A simple question asked in one interview, "Barry what do you like to do when your away from the game.... Barry answers, " it's none of your business."

From 2003 on Babe Ruth... Barry says..." I wiped him out. I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs and thats it. Don't talk about him no more."

Even before Balco was in the news, asked about possible steroid use in the game. Another gem from Barry... " It's none of the peoples business what the players do."

Yea, Barry tells it like it is, thats why he is so loved. Fair or not, Barry just can't understand why he's disliked by some.

Barry's a rude jerk, so is Sosa, but Barry has always been upfront about it, not hiding behind a smile.

Bonds is who he is, he doesn't perform an act just to get fans to like him.

[Skin & Bones]

His hits and home runs have both been going further. Can you not admit that? Balco Barry has. Why are you arguing an argument you can't possibly win. Even Bonds acknowledges his home runs have been going further than they were before 2000.

Bonds acknowledged that once doubles off the wall are now homeruns, not that his actual homerun distances are going further.

And I'm not really arguing anything, I just think a better arguement to prove Bonds steroid use is his increase in homerun%.

[TRfromBR]

Actually, Bonds has agreed to testing.



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/02/24/MNGO056V7Q1.DTL

I've never heard that come out of Giambi's mouth, or anyone elses for that matter.

And I already explained why it's difficult to ERASE the record, because then you would have to alter the statistics of every player who drove him in, and the pitchers statistics against him. If it was so easy, Selig would have done it, and talk of asterisk wouldn't exist.

And I already agreed that taking steroids is cheating, but you've still never answered my questions - Do you feel the same way about other cheats? Do you feel Perry's 300 wins is tainted by altering the ball? What about Schmidt's greenies use? What about Mays?

Why start messing with one cheats records, when you have other records already " tainted " by other players who've cheated?

You really are way out there for Barry.

I've said over and over that all cheating should be stopped and punished - whoever it be. Bonds just happens to be the most flagrant since Conseco and Anderson, that I recall.

Here you go again trying to tarnish Mays, Griffey and Aaron, with no evidence, while you keep trying to protect BALCO Barry, who everyone with a brain knows has poured PED's into himself since the '90's.

This is the first time you've brought up Perry. I've answered before elsewhere that I believe he should have been precluded from the Hall, if the evidence against him was clear and convincing - which it might have been, I don't personally know. I don't know of any evidence that Mays, or Aaron, or Schmidt, or Griffey cheated there way to any records. Are you charging that?

Your continued inabilty to understand how the MLB can invalidate a Home Run record without rewriting the history of the world since 1998 is incredible. Nullification is not a technically difficult procedure.

And your faith in Selig now explains why you believe the cheat. Anyone who thinks Selig has been acting honestly throughout this needs mental work. He's guilty, too.

[Skin & Bones]

You really are way out there for Barry.

I've said over and over that all cheating should be stopped and punished - whoever it be. Bonds just happens to be the most flagrant since Conseco and Anderson, that I recall.

Here you go again trying to tarnish Mays, Griffey and Aaron, with no evidence, while you keep trying to protect BALCO Barry, who everyone with a brain knows has poured PED's into himself since the '90's.

This is the first time you've brought up Perry. I've answered before elsewhere that I believe he should have been precluded from the Hall, if the evidence against him was clear and convincing - which it might have been, I don't personally know. I don't know of any evidence that Mays, or Aaron, or Schmidt, or Griffey cheated there way to any records. Are you charging that?

Your continued inabilty to understand how the MLB can invalidate a Home Run record without rewriting the history of the world since 1998 is incredible. Nullification is not a technically difficult procedure.

And your faith in Selig now explains why you believe the cheat. Anyone who thinks Selig has been acting honestly throughout this needs mental work. He's guilty, too.

I actually never mentioned Aaron or Griffey, so I didn't " tarnish them ". Though Aaron did admit to using Amphetamines once, but what does it matter if it only came out of his mouth?

And they found Red Juice ( liquid amphetamines) in Willie Mays locker during his playing career. Pretty much the samething as finding Andro In Mcgwire's locker.

Mike Schmidt admitted to using Amphetamines, but yeah, I'm just tarnishing his name to defend Bonds. That's exactly what I'm doing:confused:. Honestly, when will these slipshod allegations stop? Everything I have said is 100% factual, nothing more, nothing less.

And you don't personally have to recognize Bonds records - so why you are making a big deal out of this is anyone's guess. Don't recognize 73 homeruns, it's that simple.

And when did I say I trust in Selig? ( another baseless allegation). I said if it was easy to erase records, talk of asterisk wouldn't exist. Why should there be talks of asterisk if it was so simple to " erase " records?

[TRfromBR]

Barry's a rude jerk ...



More evidence of his respect for the game.

[Skin & Bones]

TR, do you want to just end this?

Nobody is going to convince each other of anything - So let's just leave it at that. Why bother arguing something over and over, if it will all just came back to the samething?

[TRfromBR]

TR, do you want to just end this?

Nobody is going to convince each other of anything - So let's just leave it at that. Why bother arguing something over and over, if it will all just came back to the samething?

Sure, let's end it. But, I just want to add that I saw Mays and Aaron play, and I never witnessed anything resembling cheating. They were great in the teens, twenties and early thirties, then gradually wore down in the normal fashion. It would be unfair to leave any other impression.

Good luck this season with the Marlins.

[Skin & Bones]

Sure, let's end it. But, I just want to add that I saw Mays and Aaron play, and I never witnessed anything resembling cheating. They were great in the teens, twenties and early thirties, then gradually wore down in the normal fashion. It would be unfair to leave any other impression.

Good luck this season with the Marlins.

TR, I'm just saying what actually happened. They did indeed find liquid greenies in Mays locker, now whether or not he was a frequent user of greenies is up for debate. And Aaron wasn't, because while he admitted to using greenies, he never admitted to being a flagrant user.

And thanks for wishing my team luck - We certainly will need it, lol.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

[QUOTE=SHOELESSJOE3;873586]

Barry's a rude jerk, so is Sosa, but Barry has always been upfront about it, not hiding behind a smile.

Bonds is who he is, he doesn't perform an act just to get fans to like him.

Well, he shouldn't complain about the press making him out to be something he is not, he is what he is, all his own doing.

Sosa with that phony smile, not really mister nice guy when you get his dander up. Gets caught with a loaded bat and than complains about his punishment. "I'm not a criminal." Who said you were Sammy, take your punishment and move on.

[Westlake]

[COLOR="Blue"]
Sure, let's end it. But, I just want to add that I saw Mays and Aaron play, and I never witnessed anything resembling cheating.

So, you saw Bonds cheat? You literally saw him injecting himself with steriods or something like that?

[TRfromBR]

So, you saw Bonds cheat?

Yes, exactly, I saw him cheating quite a bit. I'm sure you have, too, along with the rest of us here.

[Monarch]

I challenge anyone to find me one piece of hard evidence supporting claims that Sammy Sosa ever used steroids.

Ever spend time on the DL because of a sneeze?

[Monarch]

Yes, exactly, I saw him cheating quite a bit. I'm sure you have, too, along with the rest of us here.

Those two photos tell it all. On top of that, when Bonds was a Pirate, he wore a size 10 cleat. Now he wears a size 13. What does HGH do to the body? Everyone now. It makes your appendages grow. Feet get bigger, arms get longer, your head gets bigger. Oh, he now wears a 7 5/8 hat, too. I can't remember what he wore before, but I do know that it was significantly smaller.

[Westlake]

Yes, exactly, I saw him cheating quite a bit. I'm sure you have, too, along with the rest of us here.

I knew you would say that, except no, you did not see him cheat. If you claim that you did, then maybe you saw Aaron and Mays cheat, although you claim you didn't.

[TRfromBR]

I knew you would say that, except no, you did not see him cheat. If you claim that you did, then maybe you saw Aaron and Mays cheat, although you claim you didn't.

Like you, I definitely saw Bonds cheat - in every game since '98, at least.

Can you name even one game Henry Aaron or Willie Mays cheated during? I can't. Can you? (Except, of course, for Willie's deceitfully oversized hat.)

And, no - to save time - I never saw Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Foxx, Ruth, Cobb, or Wagner cheat. Though, I always been more than a tad suspicious of most of those there Boston Pilgrims and Cleveland Spiders ... and every dang one of those crooked-lookin' Brooklyn Bridegrooms (especially the one pictured below.)

[AutographCollector]

And Bonds is not a phony? He's been lying and cheating to the entire world for the last decade? You don't really believe his fraudulent denials about not using PED's, do you?

That pic is the funniest thing that I have seen in a long time. :thumbsup:
BTW: I am not a fan of either of them, so whatever. :blah:

[TRfromBR]

That pic is the funniest thing that I have seen in a long time. :thumbsup:



Yeah, it's pretty hard to believe that Joe Visner was a Bridegroom. I'm afraid to google up the wife.

(He sure could hit triples, though ... maybe he was just too scared to go home.)

[Old Sweater]

erik bedard: Sosa was tested while with the Orioles and never tested positive.

you do not know this as fact, erik.
per work agreement in place at the time, a player's positive test resulyt would not have been made public.

overall, i agree with you. and your false logic images thing involving ruth made me chuckle.

I got a chuckle out of that to. Big difference between bulking up and getting fat. Besides, I think I said most old sluggers and still had Babe Ruth used for a rare example. All of the alleged juicers still don't have as much raw power as Mantle had. Natural sluggers don't need to bulk up 65lbs. from their rookie weight

Hey EB, speaking of logic, if corked bats don't help, why do players use them?
=============================
8. Norm Cash (outfielder, White Sox, Tigers, 1958-74)
By his own account, Cash used a corked bat during the 1961 season, a breakout year he never came close to duplicating. In '61, Cash led the AL in batting with a .361 average, hit 41 homers and drove in 132 runs. After he retired, he demonstrated for SI how he doctored his bat by drilling an eight-inch hole in the barrel, filling it with glue, cork and sawdust.
================================

Here is a link to some of the top cheats in baseball.

Top Cheaters List, ESPN (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html)

Like I said, Sosa cheated with a bat, so why would he stop at roids?

Also, what has Sammy done since he has teated clean for PED's and got caught with the corked bat? Talk about a rapid decline in production.

Here is some links with valid points.
chart of rapid decline (http://pointofview.typepad.com/pov/2006/03/_the_green_line.html)
Rick Reilly interveiw (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/07/02/life_of_reilly/)
hardtimes article (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/slammin-sammy/) valid point on corked bat.

Why didn't Sosa get tested then? Before going to the Orioles.


Your right somewhat about Sosa's head. It hasn't grown as much as I thought.

Like I said before, I don't care, but you'll never convince me that Sosa wasn't ever on the juice.

http://www.jesuslist.com/blog/images/sammy-sosa.jpeghttp://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/sosaud.jpg

[Old Sweater]

So, you saw Bonds cheat? You literally saw him injecting himself with steriods or something like that?

http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_9f64ab78514e7055d2939aa9f0b6ab7e.png

[Old Sweater]

I knew you would say that,

http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_147b0088ca2656d86817f7366c0a3e67.png

[Erik Bedard]

I never met the wacko from VTU either, but I condemn his actions, and all his self-serving whining, too. Vastly different scales of transgression, but the same phony, self-pitying arrogance and excuses.

Another apologist for Bonds cheating his way to the record books?

Totally different. You can quite easily condemn someone you've never met who a) admitted to wrongdoing or b) was caught in wrongdoing.

Ever spend time on the DL because of a sneeze?

No, but I've hurt my knee because of a sneeze.

[Old Sweater]

TR asks/ Can you name even one game Henry Aaron or Willie Mays cheated during?

Does this include stealing signs, taking a peek at the catcher( not illegal but ill advised), or putting a little sticky on the sweet spot?

I don't like either Sosa or Bonds but they do belong in the HOF.


"I've cheated, or someone on my team has cheated, in almost every single game I've been in.".....Rogers Hornsby

[ESPNFan]

And Giambi bragged about using steroids? Am I missing something?

Yeah you basically did.

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/giambidork.jpg


"Living Better through Chemistry"

Sounds like a guy who was really remorseful about his previous Steroid use. :shrug:

[TRfromBR]

No, but I've hurt my knee because of a sneeze.

That sometimes happens with a foot in your mouth.

[west coast orange and black]

erik bedard: In 2005, I believe a positive test result would be made public.
2005. hmmm. i believe that you are right, but am not certain.
if you are right, than i stand corrected.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: I saw [Bonds] cheating quite a bit.

what took place between the dates of your 2 images?
go to bonds' site, where he has video archives from '86, '90, '93, '96, '98, '00-07.

bonds is in his 22nd big league season.
maybe the purpose of the footage is to prove that he was alive and well and playing baseball in between the time of your 2 selected images.

[west coast orange and black]

monarch: When Bonds was a Pirate, he wore a size 10 cleat. Now he wears a size 13.
[Bonds] now wears a 7 5/8 hat, too. I can't remember what he wore before, but I do know that it was significantly smaller.
no need to try to rely on memory. simply return to your source of the 10-to-13 (mis)information.

[ESPNFan]

erik bedard: In 2005, I believe a positive test result would be made public.
2005. hmmm. i believe that you are right, but am not certain.
if you are right, than i stand corrected.

Yes I believe that is infact the case. This was done after MLB got killed by congress for having the "backdoor" clause that allowed Bud Selig to decide what the punishment would be and weather or not to suspend or just fine him.

In 2004 a first positive test only resulted in entering the player in a counseling/treatment program. And I think I heard somewhere that there were 10 or so positive tests.

[west coast orange and black]

espn: Yes I believe that is infact the case.
thanx for correcting me.

In 2004 .... there were 10 or so positive tests.
dude. there were more than 10 positives on a few individual teams. :dismay:

[TRfromBR]

[QUOTE=west coast orange and black;873964]

what took place between the dates of your 2 images?

[QUOTE]

He juiced up big time. What do you think happened?

[west coast orange and black]

what took place between the dates of your 2 images?

He juiced up big time. What do you think happened?

20+ seasons. during that time, a leadoff, 50+ steals, centerfield-type player changed into a multiple batting champion slugger.

your image selections imply that bonds used from the date of the first image onward. is this your claim?
if no, then perhaps you can post 2 images that properly reflect the time that you believe that bonds used.

[ESPNFan]

In 2004 .... there were 10 or so positive tests.
dude. there were more than 10 positives on a few individual teams. :dismay:

Wait are you getting 2003 and the "informational testing" (at least 5-7% of MLB positive) period confused with the 2004 testing?

According to an ESPN article:

The agreement does not address whether players who tested positive for steroids in 2004 and test positive again shall be treated as first offenders, who can be suspended for 10 days, or second offenders, who can be suspended for 30 days. There were 12 positive tests last year, baseball told the committee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2014852

Now given the nature of MLB and its testing at the time, I bet this number is in no where near reflective of howmany users there were.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ yes. i blurred 2003 and 2004.

I bet this number is in no where near reflective of how many users there were.
not just how many users, but how many actually tested positive is still my claim.
i can not back it up with empirical evidence, though. that stuff simply does not exist.

[ESPNFan]

^^ yes. i blurred 2003 and 2004.

I bet this number is in no where near reflective of how many users there were.
not just how many users, but how many actually tested positive is still my claim.
i can not back it up with empirical evidence, though. that stuff simply does not exist.

Consiering the testing at the time was described by some as an "IQ test" in relation to how easy it was to circumvent I wouldn't doubt you a bit. Given what I have heard and read its not something that you would need a mountain of evidence to assume.

On a related note when The Mitchell investigation is complete do you think we are going to hear anything that qualifies as a "revelation" or do you think its going to be more of the same if anything.

[TRfromBR]

what took place between the dates of your 2 images?

He juiced up big time. What do you think happened?

20+ seasons. during that time, a leadoff, 50+ steals, centerfield-type player changed into a multiple batting champion slugger.

your image selections imply that bonds used from the date of the first image onward. is this your claim?
if no, then perhaps you can post 2 images that properly reflect the time that you believe that bonds used.

If you don't acknowledge by this point in time that Bonds has been abusing PED's, there's nothing I can do to help you learn that.

[yankillaz]

I don´t care bout neither. But Sammy will get his 600th before Bonds.

[Erik Bedard]

That sometimes happens with a foot in your mouth.

Actually, I was getting up from a stool and I banged my knee against the table when I sneezed. But I figure that's not what you're talking about.

[Westlake]

http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_9f64ab78514e7055d2939aa9f0b6ab7e.png

Just like your banner-holding smilies?

[Old Sweater]

Just like your banner-holding smilies?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_811a186b8e4f3e248a3318ca3fe3622a.png~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

[Westlake]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_811a186b8e4f3e248a3318ca3fe3622a.png~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

I really think you're lying about your age.

[Old Sweater]

I really think you're lying about your age.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_5be4a80963587b9c4c17ce799ffe9e4a.png~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Erik Bedard]

I got a chuckle out of that to. Big difference between bulking up and getting fat. Besides, I think I said most old sluggers and still had Babe Ruth used for a rare example. All of the alleged juicers still don't have as much raw power as Mantle had. Natural sluggers don't need to bulk up 65lbs. from their rookie weight

Up until about the late 80's, working out in an effort to build muscle was frowned upon in baseball. Jose Canseco claimed he was one of the first to start working out regularly. I don't care if he was, all I know is that many players "bulked up" in the 1990's and 2000's, and not all of them were on steroids.

Hey EB, speaking of logic, if corked bats don't help, why do players use them?

Read carefully. They don't help your slugging. They do provide a quicker bat speed, but the lower density of the bat as a result of the "cork" dampens the impact, causing the ball to not go as far. Or something like that.

=============================
8. Norm Cash (outfielder, White Sox, Tigers, 1958-74)
By his own account, Cash used a corked bat during the 1961 season, a breakout year he never came close to duplicating. In '61, Cash led the AL in batting with a .361 average, hit 41 homers and drove in 132 runs. After he retired, he demonstrated for SI how he doctored his bat by drilling an eight-inch hole in the barrel, filling it with glue, cork and sawdust.
================================

1961 was an somewhat inflated HR year, which can explain the HRs and SLG. The BA can be attributed to his increased bat speed as a result of the cork.

Like I said, Sosa cheated with a bat, so why would he stop at roids?

Also, what has Sammy done since he has teated clean for PED's and got caught with the corked bat? Talk about a rapid decline in production.

Here is some links with valid points.
chart of rapid decline (http://pointofview.typepad.com/pov/2006/03/_the_green_line.html)
Rick Reilly interveiw (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/07/02/life_of_reilly/)
hardtimes article (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/slammin-sammy/) valid point on corked bat.


That last article is actually an argument in my favor.

Why didn't Sosa get tested then? Before going to the Orioles.

Because MLB had no testing procedures.

[Old Sweater]

That last article is actually an argument in my favor.


Yeah, by the writers opinion. So was Rick Rielly's,he don't believe Sosa juiced in the middle article. Everyone has their own opinion, think the blood hound Rielly was just covering base 2 different ways IMO.

Because MLB had no testing procedures.

Someone did.

Read carefully. They don't help your slugging. They do provide a quicker bat speed, but the lower density of the bat as a result of the "cork" dampens the impact, causing the ball to not go as far. Or something like that.

I'll just stick with the results and opinions of the Pro's that have used them over lab results. I'm sure Graig Nettles put those superballs in his bat for good reason. If you need more bat speed you just drop to a lighter weight if your not concerned with slg%. You don't think the players test corked bats before they use them in a game? If the ball isn't going to go as far, they wouldn't use them.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: If you don't acknowledge by this point in time that Bonds has been abusing PED's, there's nothing I can do to help you learn that.

i do not see where i need your help for anything, man.
you claim that bonds "has been" using. the implication of your statement is that bonds is still using.
did bonds use? of course. rattle off the names of guys who didn't.

but with your images you claim (unsuccessfully) that bonds used from his rookie season. so, it is actually you who refuses to acknowledge.

[TRfromBR]

trfrombr: If you don't acknowledge by this point in time that Bonds has been abusing PED's, there's nothing I can do to help you learn that.

i do not see where i need your help for anything, man.
you claim that bonds "has been" using. the implication of your statement is that bonds is still using.
did bonds use? of course. rattle off the names of guys who didn't.

but with your images you claim (unsuccessfully) that bonds used from his rookie season. so, it is actually you who refuses to acknowledge.

No wonder why Bonds gets away with all his cheating out there in San Fran, West Coast Orange and Black.

P.S. Being that you are a Super Moderator, and you are aware the my Manage Attachment function was abruptly disabled, will you please research and fix the problem for me, so that I can send you that visual evidence you requested of me.

[west coast orange and black]

"supermoderator" does not enable me to figure out yer technical difficiluties.
please direct your inquiry to sean, webmaster and owner of bb-f.

[TRfromBR]

"supermoderator" does not enable me to figure out yer technical difficiluties.
please direct your inquiry to sean, webmaster and owner of bb-f.

Won't be necessary. I've decided you and Ubi are right about Bonds getting away with this. As long as there are guys like you two out there advocating for and defending him, Bonds will be able to capitalize such obfuscation, and never be punished.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves letting Bonds dupe you into condoning and defending the biggest fraud in baseball history.

I really respect Bill Burgess for the way he has modulated his support of Bonds. I know he has been a big fan of Bonds, and rightfully praises his excellent pre-steroid record. But, never has he gone out of his way to support his cheating, like you two moderators do incessantly. My hat - which I always wear cocked - is off to men like Bill, who defends assiduously works to have spirited, open and fair discussions. And, of course, most of the other members are great, and smarter than me for not try to talk sense to you two.

Good luck and hope you come to your senses.

[Westlake]

Won't be necessary. I've decided you and Ubi are right about Bonds getting away with this. As long as there are guys like you two out there advocating for and defending him, Bonds will be able to capitalize such obfuscation, and never be punished.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves letting Bonds dupe you into condoning and defending the biggest fraud in baseball history.

I really respect Bill Burgess for the way he has modulated his support of Bonds. I know he has been a big fan of Bonds, and rightfully praises his excellent pre-steroid record. But, never has he gone out of his way to support his cheating, like you two moderators do incessantly. My hat - which I always wear cocked - is off to men like Bill, who defends assiduously works to have spirited, open and fair discussions. And, of course, most of the other members are great, and smarter than me for not try to talk sense to you two.

Good luck and hope you come to your senses.
I wonder how long it will be until you stop being intentionally dense. Not once did they say they condoned steriod use, or that they supported Barry taking steriods, or that they advocate Barry cheating. You don't actually engage in the conversation these two guys are trying to have with you, you just automatically come back with "I can't believe you support Bonds cheating"... even though not one of them or myself has ever said that on this board. Not once. Neither of them would. Who knows why you can't get that through your head.

[TRfromBR]

I wonder how long it will be until you stop being intentionally dense. Not once did they say they condoned steriod use, or that they supported Barry taking steriods, or that they advocate Barry cheating. You don't actually engage in the conversation these two guys are trying to have with you, you just automatically come back with "I can't believe you support Bonds cheating"... even though not one of them or myself has ever said that on this board. Not once. Neither of them would. Who knows why you can't get that through your head.

As usual when it comes to Bonds, Westlake, you are wrong. Both Ubi and West Coast have indeed repeatedly condoned and defended Bonds' steroid abuse. Look up the word condone, reread their posts over time, and you will see you are wrong - which you likely already know. Then, you, too, can get back to your usual phony posts on Bonds.

[Old Sweater]

Here is further evidence that Barry cheated.

He copied a masters stroke.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hitzone/BarryTed.gif

[csh19792001]

As usual when it comes to Bonds, Westlake, you are wrong. Both Ubi and West Coast have indeed repeatedly condoned and defended Bonds' steroid abuse. Look up the word condone, reread their posts over time, and you will see you are wrong - which you likely already know. Then, you, too, can get back to your usual phony posts on Bonds.

Damned straight. Apologists would be the most polite phrasing here. Ubiqitous and West Coast have been the biggest Bonds apologists for YEARS here. Unfortunately it's nothing new. In fact, when Bonds was moronic enough to test dirty for amphetmines, Mr. Mod Ubiquitous had the audacity (idiocy) to make a post stating:

Well I guess Barry really is like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays afterall.

From this thread. REPORT: Barry Bonds failed a drug test (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=792275#post792275)

Hardy har. Yeah, JUST LIKE Aaron and Mays. PLEASE. Go read a book and learn about Bonds and his disgusting, flagrant, insidious, illegal steroid use.

[Old Sweater]

TRfromBR falls behind in this Soap Box Derby to save baseball from the evil clutches of Barry Bonds.

[west coast orange and black]

old sweater: he copied a masters stroke.
you're kidding, right?
there are, like, 8 different things going on in those clips.

[west coast orange and black]

please direct your inquiry to sean, webmaster and owner of bb-f.

Won't be necessary.

so, yer gonna keep alll that proof-positive evidence to yerself?

[Old Sweater]

old sweater: he copied a masters stroke.
you're kidding, right?
there are, like, 8 different things going on in those clips.


Which are?

[Skin & Bones]

\


From this thread. REPORT: Barry Bonds failed a drug test (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=792275#post792275)

Hardy har. Yeah, JUST LIKE Aaron and Mays.


It would be kind of hard for Mays and Aaron to test positive for Amphetamines since there was no testing.

Heck, by the logic you are using, we could argue that Palmerio and Canseco's steroid use can't be compared due to the fact that Palmerio tested positive while Canseco never had to take a single test - The exact samething stands for Barry's use of Greenies vs Mays and Aaron.

Of course, if Barry's the "expert" on undetectable PED'S that he's alleged to be, you'd think he'd have done more research on Amphetamines...

Dr. Gary Wadler of the World Anti-Doping Agency says undetectable amphetamines are already available.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/08/25/amph.friday/2.html

[THE OX]

When either or both of these "events" occurs, I'll just hold my nose against the stench and try NOT to puke.........

[four tool]

I said Bonds because I just want to get the dang thing over with. I hope he passes Aaron before the All-Star break.

[west coast orange and black]

four tool: I hope he passes Aaron before the All-Star break.
6 in 46 at bats. not shabby for a 43 year-old.

[Westlake]

four tool: I hope he passes Aaron before the All-Star break.
6 in 46 at bats. not shabby for a 43 year-old.

He's on roids, WCOAB, the roids hit those 6 HRs. Duh.

[west coast orange and black]

old sweater: He copied a masters stroke.

deeper in box
closer to plate
front foot stride
front foot plant angle
front leg straighter
back leg remains planted
front arm in tighter
front elbow in

there are 4 things with bonds' top hand, alone, but that might be too technical.

[west coast orange and black]

fact: 6 hr in 46 ab
not fact: he's on roids

[Westlake]

fact: 6 hr in 46 ab
not fact: he's on roids

No dude, his shoe size is still bigger, so he's still cheating. Der..

[west coast orange and black]

westlake: his shoe size is still bigger, so he's still cheating
what is the souce of your claim?
if it is writers williams and fainaru-wada, what is their source?
many thanx.

btw: is it the 6 hr themselves, or the ratio that has you going "der"?

[Westlake]

Maybe you are missing the extreme sarcasm.

[Old Sweater]

old sweater: He copied a masters stroke.

deeper in box (not storke)
closer to plate (not stroke)
front foot stride (looks same to me)
front foot plant angle (looks the same to me)
front leg straighter (maybe a little, Bonds has on tighter pants)
back leg remains planted (little black box prevents seeing this)
front arm in tighter (slighty if you use your imagination)
front elbow in (slightly)

there are 4 things with bonds' top hand, alone, but that might be too technical.( need slo mo for that anyways)

Most obvious thing I saw was that Williams drops his bat more and further back at the start.

[west coast orange and black]

so, bonds' stroke, the creation of bonds the senior and barry, is his own.

[west coast orange and black]

westlake: Maybe you are missing the extreme sarcasm.
maybe.
and maybe you are playing both sides of the fence.

[Old Sweater]

so, bonds' stroke, the creation of bonds the senior and barry, is his own.

Bonds yes, very similar to Williams yes.

Guess your so use to defending Bonds that you get defensive on a complementary clip.

[jason77]

there is no RUMOR to bonds having taken steroids. it is a FACT. Bonds himself he took the clear and the cream which are both steriods he just lied and said he didnt know what they were. so its a fact bonds did take steroids.

[natsnsoxfan]

Bonds will be more "celebrated", if you want to call it that, just because it is the most hallowed record in all of sports. They both pretty obviously did 'roids but at least Sammy is a pretty nice guy and isn't TOOOO full of himself like Bonds.

[yank]

I won't celebrate either. 1) I don't really care about Sammy Sosa. 2) I hate Bonds*. He lies, cheats, and I don't care if you say there isn't enough evidence. Going from a scrawny, fast, base stealing player to the biggest guy in baseball is good enough for me. Plus that arthritis cream and flaxseed oil really does wonders for your home run power... Hence, in my mind: 61 and Maris is still the season record to beat and 755 will still be the career home run record to beat. And I hope the next person to come close to 755 says that they are chasing Aaron not Bonds*.

[natsnsoxfan]

I won't celebrate either. 1) I don't really care about Sammy Sosa. 2) I hate Bonds*. He lies, cheats, and I don't care if you say there isn't enough evidence. Going from a scrawny, fast, base stealing player to the biggest guy in baseball is good enough for me. Plus that arthritis cream and flaxseed oil really does wonders for your home run power... Hence, in my mind: 61 and Maris is still the season record to beat and 755 will still be the career home run record to beat. And I hope the next person to come close to 755 says that they are chasing Aaron not Bonds*.

i like the asterik next to Bonds name :laugh :D . And i agree, not so much with the Maris thing because thats kind of a touchy issue and difficult to refute for me because so many people have done it since,(although all of them presumably did steroids) and A-Rod looks like he may break Bonds record at this pace, but i do agree with the chasing Aaron not Bonds point you made. I really hope no one does anything when he breaks it and i hope he breaks it in LA, NY, or BOS where he'll get booed vigourously. Its obviously going to be celebrated though because of how high esteem the record is held in and was and is considered one of the most sacred records in all of sports.

Imagine that, a Red Sox fan agreeing with a Yankee fan..... :laugh

[Skin & Bones]

Going from a scrawny, fast, base stealing player to the biggest guy in baseball is good enough for me.

The idea of Bonds just being a " scrawny fast basestealer " prior to hooking up with Anderson is Completely false.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbbw5215.htm

Yet his workout regimen, supervised by personal trainer Raymond Farriss, who also trains former NFL running back Roger Craig and all-world wide receiver Jerry Rice, suggests he might be.

In four months, Bonds lowered his body fat to 8% from 12%, and is bench-pressing 315 pounds, up from 230. There were sprints to be run, and run, and run. He looks more muscular, more defined, more powerful. His biceps stretch his jersey's sleeves to the limit.

''I thought I was in great shape the way I worked out before because I was putting up the numbers I did,'' Bonds says in the clubhouse, ''but I was out of shape. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it and I'm happy with the results, but it doesn't guarantee success. I don't care how many weights you lift - you can lift until you're blue in the face - it doesn't guarantee success. [/QUOTE]

Prior to 99, or 00, whenever he hooked up with Anderson Bonds was not " a skinny basestealer ", but one of the best power hitters in baseball who just happened to be gifted at stealing bases at a successful %.

[natsnsoxfan]

thats one of the things about bonds that upsets me. he was a good power hitter even prior to bulking up on roids and letting his ego get the better of him. he probably STILL might've gotten to Ruth or Aaron without them.

[Skin & Bones]

thats one of the things about bonds that upsets me. he was a good power hitter even prior to bulking up on roids and letting his ego get the better of him. he probably STILL might've gotten to Ruth or Aaron without them.

Records are overrated, IMO. If you don't like Bonds alleged steroid use, don't recognize his records - It's as simple as that. There's no need to erase anything, or put asterisk's next to them ( ironic how a yankee fan loathes a steroid cheat).

Bonds, IMO, has and always will be a superior ballplayer to Hank Aaron - And Him passing Aaron on the all-time homerun list doesn't make me think more highly of him at all.

[west coast orange and black]

bonds' stroke, the creation of bonds the senior and barry, is his own.

old sweater: Bonds yes, very similar to Williams

not being defensive. just calling you on your claim that bonds copied.
he did not.

[Westlake]

westlake: Maybe you are missing the extreme sarcasm.
maybe.
and maybe you are playing both sides of the fence.

Actually no, i'm not. I just have a sense of humor about things. Guess you don't.

[west coast orange and black]

ok, i missed your sarcasm. my bad. i will try to differentiate from now on.
but now that we know that it is not steroids, just how is it that bonds has 6 homeruns and leads the league in slugging?

[maximum jack]

Bonds, IMO, has and always will be a superior ballplayer to Hank Aaron

Really? Aaron hit 510 homeruns before they lowered the mound in '68. He did it pre-expansion, and when the best athletes in the country were still gravatating toward baseball. He did it sans body armor. He did it for mostly average teams in small markets. He later surpassed the most hallowed mark in all of sports while receiving death threats (and threats to his family) from racists on a daily basis. All things considered, I put Aaron above Bonds-- even without the specter of PEDs.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ plenty of room for non-agreeing positions.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Really? Aaron hit 510 homeruns before they lowered the mound in '68. He did it pre-expansion, and when the best athletes in the country were still gravatating toward baseball. He did it sans body armor. He did it for mostly average teams in small markets. He later surpassed the most hallowed mark in all of sports while receiving death threats (and threats to his family) from racists on a daily basis. All things considered, I put Aaron above Bonds-- even without the specter of PEDs.
That's not true. In 1962 the NL added the Astros and the Mets and in 1969 the NL added the Padres and the Expos.

Aaron HRs

1961-34
1962-45

1968-29
1969-44 (in 13 fewer games)

[Westlake]

Really? Aaron hit 510 homeruns before they lowered the mound in '68. He did it pre-expansion, and when the best athletes in the country were still gravatating toward baseball. He did it sans body armor. He did it for mostly average teams in small markets. He later surpassed the most hallowed mark in all of sports while receiving death threats (and threats to his family) from racists on a daily basis. All things considered, I put Aaron above Bonds-- even without the specter of PEDs.


Like HWR, it wasnt really pre-expansion. About the death threats... you think Barry hasn't gotten any of those? And about putting Aaron above Barry without the PEDs thing... I just dont understand it. Barry is going to pass Aaron's record with 3000 less ABs.... even BEFORE PEDs, Barry had higher OPS+ than Aaron ever had, he was better defensively, and was stealing 30-50 bags a year.

[TonyStarks]

I am a Sosa fan....and I loathe, dispise (sp?) Bonds and if it wasn't that it's deemed ungentlemen like here I would wish things upon him.

But I cannot celebrate either of these 2 feats or be happy for them.

No there is no evidence of either taking PEDs, but lack of evidence does not mean no crime was committed. Just means the authorities haven't gotten caught up with them.

[maximum jack]

I was thinking before the league went to 12 teams, that's when he was at 510.

Westlake, as for Barry getting death threats, I don't know, but I doubt it is anything like the crap Aaron had to put up with just a few years removed from the Civil Rights era in the South. Barry probably has someone in his entourage who's sole purpose is to ensure Barry never sees any threats.

[Westlake]

I was thinking before the league went to 12 teams, that's when he was at 510.

Westlake, as for Barry getting death threats, I don't know, but I doubt it is anything like the crap Aaron had to put up with just a few years removed from the Civil Rights era in the South. Barry probably has someone in his entourage who's sole purpose is to ensure Barry never sees any threats.

That's possible. Was Aaroned booed all the time during his run at Ruth's record?

[Skin & Bones]

Like HWR, it wasnt really pre-expansion. About the death threats... you think Barry hasn't gotten any of those? And about putting Aaron above Barry without the PEDs thing... I just dont understand it. Barry is going to pass Aaron's record with 3000 less ABs.... even BEFORE PEDs, Barry had higher OPS+ than Aaron ever had, he was better defensively, and was stealing 30-50 bags a year.

Agreed with this. Bonds never needed steroids to perform at a higher level than Aaron at pretty much every aspect of the game.

[maximum jack]

That's possible. Was Aaroned booed all the time during his run at Ruth's record?

You're comparing "boos" to racist death threats? :noidea

[Westlake]

You're comparing "boos" to racist death threats? :noidea

Ummm.... no. Just a question, I don't have an agenda here.

[natsnsoxfan]

Aaron was a far better player and is 1 million timese the person Bonds could ever hope to be.

I think people tend to forget how many other records Aaron hold, held, or is close to the top for.

Aaron is also the career leader in RBI's (2297;Bonds 1942), Total Bases (6856;Bonds 5821), 3rd in career hits (3771;Bonds 2857), and 10th in 2B's (624;Bonds 590).

The face that he is 3rd in career hits alone behind only Cobb and Rose goes to show that he was much more than just a power hitter and was the complete package as an offensive player. Bonds won't even sniff the top 10 in career hits.

[Westlake]

Aaron was a far better player and is 1 million timese the person Bonds could ever hope to be.

I think people tend to forget how many other records Aaron hold, held, or is close to the top for.

Aaron is also the career leader in RBI's (2297;Bonds 1942), Total Bases (6856;Bonds 5821), 3rd in career hits (3771;Bonds 2857), and 10th in 2B's (624;Bonds 590).

The face that he is 3rd in career hits alone behind only Cobb and Rose goes to show that he was much more than just a power hitter and was the complete package as an offensive player. Bonds won't even sniff the top 10 in career hits.

Sorry dude, but you're just plain wrong. Maybe he's "1 million times the person Bonds is" but that just about as far as it goes.

RBI is an opportunity stat. The more opportunities you get, the more you will probably have. RBI doesnt give you a good idea on who the best player is. Same thing with career hits... unless you think Pete Rose is the best hitter ever.

Barry leads in OPS+ by 28 points, got on base at a MUCH better pace, and was a better slugger. By the way, Aaron only leads Barry in relative BA by .008.

Again, Barry was better on defense and on the basepaths as well. Unless you are going to say "Barry stats dont count because he was on steriods" (even though he was having better years than Aaron ever had without roids) than the numbers prove Barry was better.

[Skin & Bones]

Runs above Replacement, adjusted for league difficulty.



http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-the-change-in-league-quality-part-two/

First Last RAR
Barry Bonds 1376
Ted Williams 1321
Hank Aaron 1234
Stan Musial 1201
Willie Mays 1174
Frank Robinson 1110
Carl Yastrzemski 1109
Rickey Henderson 1104
Ty Cobb 1104
Mickey Mantle 1071

Note where Bonds ranks, and where Aaron ranks - And Bonds still has less PA'S than Aaron. Quite simply, you can't say with a straight face that if you ignore steroids, Bonds doesn't rank as one of the top two hitters ever - And that Aaron ranks ahead of him. It's a complete joke to even think such nonsense.

[Westlake]

Note where Bonds ranks, and where Aaron ranks - And Bonds still has less PA'S than Aaron. Quite simply, you can't say with a straight face that if you ignore steroids, Bonds doesn't rank as one of the top two hitters ever - And that Aaron ranks ahead of him. It's a complete joke to even think such nonsense.

Actually I can say that if steriods played no part in it, I still don't think Bonds is one of the best two hitters ever. That one stat you showed isn't the be all and end all.... and therefore I still believe Ruth and Williams to be superior to Bonds even without steriods speculation.

[Skin & Bones]

Actually I can say that if steriods played no part in it, I still don't think Bonds is one of the best two hitters ever. That one stat you showed isn't the be all and end all.... and therefore I still believe Ruth and Williams to be superior to Bonds even without steriods speculation.

Bonds actually has the better peak than Williams, and more career value - Which is 100% entirely in his favor. Yes. he missed time to serve in the war, so I guess it depends on how much you believe those years would of aided him in terms of career value. And Bonds is numerically, in career value, on par with the Babe - and actually has an arguement ahead of him, and beats him in peak. To tell you the truth, pre steroid Barry probably wasn't too far off as an offensive player when comparing him to Ballgame...but that's for a whole other debate.

And, I never said that statistic is the " be all and end all "...

[Ubiquitous]

Ted and Babe would both rank ahead of Barry. Barry only gets points ahead of both (if in fact he is ahead) because of odd things happening to both. Ted and the two wars, and Babe and his pitching. Both Babe and Ted as hitters (ignoring the debates about league quality and era) were better hitters then Barry. Even with the steroids. Now then if Barry had gone on the steroids earlier then it would be different but unfortunately for Barry he didn't.

[Westlake]

Bonds actually has the better peak than Williams, and more career value - Which is 100% entirely in his favor. Bonds is numerically, in career value, on par with the Babe - and actually has an arguement ahead of him, and beats him in peak.

And, I never said that statistic is the " be all and end all "...

Says who?

Is it the +7 point in OPS+ that Williams has over Bonds? Or that Williams has a better relative batting average, on base percentage, AND slugging percentage? I think the peak is in Bonds' favor, but i'd like to know why he was a better hitter throughout their careers... and i'd also like to know how Bonds is even with Ruth throughout their careers... 24 point OPS+ in favor of Ruth, and again Ruth beats Bonds in relative BA, OBP, and SLG. Not to mention Ruth's peak is like 6 years longer than Bonds'.

[Skin & Bones]

Ted and Babe would both rank ahead of Barry. Barry only gets points ahead of both (if in fact he is ahead) because of odd things happening to both. Ted and the two wars, and Babe and his pitching. Both Babe and Ted as hitters (ignoring the debates about league quality and era) were better hitters then Barry. Even with the steroids. Now then if Barry had gone on the steroids earlier then it would be different but unfortunately for Barry he didn't.


Which could of possibly brought down their rate stats - To possibly closer where Barry is now, or maybe still higher ( Ruth probably still would of been higher). Of course, Barry's rates could go up if he's actually going to perform all year like he's performing now - and Of course, his counting numbers would go up as well.

Yeah, and of course ignoring league quality they both rank ahead, and Ty cobb also ranks well ahead of Willie Mays. And Roger Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc, all rank as by far the best at their respective positions, and nobody comes ( or will come) close.

IMO, it's pretty comical that Barry had to get on "beef roids" ( as Rome puts it), and other muscle building products just to put up similar numbers to pre-intergration players, who would other-wise be considered ( by the numbers) " far superior ".

[Skin & Bones]

Says who?

Is it the +7 point in OPS+ that Williams has over Bonds? Or that Williams has a better relative batting average, on base percentage, AND slugging percentage? I think the peak is in Bonds' favor, but i'd like to know why he was a better hitter throughout their careers... and i'd also like to know how Bonds is even with Ruth throughout their careers... 24 point OPS+ in favor of Ruth, and again Ruth beats Bonds in relative BA, OBP, and SLG. Not to mention Ruth's peak is like 6 years longer than Bonds'.


Williams Beats Bonds in rates, who's disagreeing?

I fail to see how that refutes my statement that Bonds beats Williams in career value...

And looking at Ruth and Bonds, I was mainly looking at Baseball Prospectus numbers, which sees Bonds ahead both at peak and in career value, but still with inferior rates. I didn't mean it as a fact, only that I think that bonds ( ignoring beef roids) has a case ahead of Ruth thanks to adjustments in his favor.

[Westlake]

Williams Beats Bonds in rates, who's disagreeing?

I fail to see how that refutes my statement that Bonds beats Williams in career value...

And looking at Ruth and Bonds, I was mainly looking at Baseball Prospectus numbers, which sees Bonds ahead both at peak and in career value, but still with inferior rates. I didn't mean it as a fact, only that I think that bonds ( ignoring beef roids) has a case ahead of Ruth thanks to adjustments in his favor.

Im still trying to figure out how anyone is supposed to take you at your word when you say that, without any evidence. The offensive stat people seem to like the best from BP is EQA, and Williams is better there too. Unless you are going to look at BRAR of BRAA without looking at the fact that Bonds is going to make over 2000 more outs.

[Skin & Bones]

Im still trying to figure out how anyone is supposed to take you at your word when you say that, without any evidence.

What evidence are you looking for? That he has more career value? What counting statistic is Williams ahead of Bonds in?

All of the rates that Williams is ahead of Bonds in, Joe Jackson's ahead of Mays in, Pujols is ahead of Arod in, does that mean they have more career value?

We aren't discussing their talents as hitters, just the value they've both provided in their careers - And Bonds clearly has provided more. Now if you want to talk about war credit, steroids, segregation, etc, fine, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

[Westlake]

What evidence are you looking for? That he has more career value? What counting statistic is Williams ahead of Bonds in?

All of the rates that Williams is ahead of Bonds in, Joe Jackson's ahead of Mays in, Pujols is ahead of Arod in, does that mean they have more career value?

We aren't discussing their talents as hitters, just the value they've both provided in their careers - And Bonds clearly has provided more. Now if you want to talk about war credit, steroids, segregation, etc, fine, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
No, you're right, it just goes without saying.

[natsnsoxfan]

Sorry dude, but you're just plain wrong. Maybe he's "1 million times the person Bonds is" but that just about as far as it goes.

RBI is an opportunity stat. The more opportunities you get, the more you will probably have. RBI doesnt give you a good idea on who the best player is. Same thing with career hits... unless you think Pete Rose is the best hitter ever.

Barry leads in OPS+ by 28 points, got on base at a MUCH better pace, and was a better slugger. By the way, Aaron only leads Barry in relative BA by .008.

Again, Barry was better on defense and on the basepaths as well. Unless you are going to say "Barry stats dont count because he was on steriods" (even though he was having better years than Aaron ever had without roids) than the numbers prove Barry was better.

How are hits an opportunity stat? Please explain that to me. I can see where you're coming from with RBI's because Barry might've passed Hank if not for getting walked so much.

Think about this though, around the time he allegedly started juicing (early to mid 2000's) he had seasons of 49 in 2000, 73 in 2001, 46 in 2002, 45 in 2003, and 45 in 2004. Amassing to a total of 258 homeruns in approximately 4 years, foor for roughly 35% of his career homeruns, to date.

Prior to that he had 3 career 40+ homerun seasons and his career high was 46. And had 445 carrer homeruns before the 2000 season, in about 13 years, amassing to about 60% of his career homeruns.

The fact that he had five 40 homer season in five year while only having 3 in the 13 before that is remarkable and cannot go without notice.

Although Aaron also only had 8 his were far more spread out and he came close to 40 far more often and consistently than Bonds did.

I'm not trying to make a case for Aaron as a better player, only a better hitter.

[Skin & Bones]

How are hits an opportunity stat? Please explain that to me. I can see where you're coming from with RBI's because Barry might've passed Hank if not for getting walked so much.

Think about this though, around the time he allegedly started juicing (early to mid 2000's) he had seasons of 49 in 2000, 73 in 2001, 46 in 2002, 45 in 2003, and 45 in 2004. Amassing to a total of 258 homeruns in approximately 4 years, foor for roughly 35% of his career homeruns, to date.

Prior to that he had 3 career 40+ homerun seasons and his career high was 46. And had 445 carrer homeruns before the 2000 season, in about 13 years, amassing to about 60% of his career homeruns.

The fact that he had five 40 homer season in five year while only having 3 in the 13 before that is remarkable and cannot go without notice.

Although Aaron also only had 8 his were far more spread out and he came close to 40 far more often and consistently than Bonds did.

I'm not trying to make a case for Aaron as a better player, only a better hitter.


Bonds also got on base at a better clip, and hit for about the same power ( I would go with Aaron due to era considerations, but Bonds hit in some massive pitchers parks). He took more walks, stole bases at a very successful%, and played stellar defense before he hooked up with Anderson.

As an offensive player, Bonds, IMO, was better thanks to other things he did that Aaron didn't do as well.

[Westlake]

How are hits an opportunity stat? Please explain that to me. I can see where you're coming from with RBI's because Barry might've passed Hank if not for getting walked so much.

Think about this though, around the time he allegedly started juicing (early to mid 2000's) he had seasons of 49 in 2000, 73 in 2001, 46 in 2002, 45 in 2003, and 45 in 2004. Amassing to a total of 258 homeruns in approximately 4 years, foor for roughly 35% of his career homeruns, to date.

Prior to that he had 3 career 40+ homerun seasons and his career high was 46. And had 445 carrer homeruns before the 2000 season, in about 13 years, amassing to about 60% of his career homeruns.

The fact that he had five 40 homer season in five year while only having 3 in the 13 before that is remarkable and cannot go without notice.

Although Aaron also only had 8 his were far more spread out and he came close to 40 far more often and consistently than Bonds did.

I'm not trying to make a case for Aaron as a better player, only a better hitter.


I never said hits were an opportunity stat.

And I KNOW all the steriod stuff, i was talking more about what Maximum Jack said, about Aaron being better without steriod speculation, which is certainly not true.

[Skin & Bones]

It's also pretty likely that Bonds would of jacked over 40 homeruns in 1994, if not for the strike - That year, he was at a 53 homerun pace.

[natsnsoxfan]

Bonds has also gotten to palyin places like Philly and Cincinnatti though. I don't think stolen bases can be considered an offensive stat because it is almost totally independent of what one does at the plate because you can reach on an error and steal two bases even though you should've been out.

I think that the OBP thing may be a little misleading because if Aaron played in the same era as Bonds he would've been IBB'd a lot like Barry was and is because i don't think that the IBB was used as often and in the same way now that it was then.

[Skin & Bones]

Bonds has also gotten to palyin places like Philly and Cincinnatti though. I don't think stolen bases can be considered an offensive stat because it is almost totally independent of what one does at the plate because you can reach on an error and steal two bases even though you should've been out.

I think that the OBP thing may be a little misleading because if Aaron played in the same era as Bonds he would've been IBB'd a lot like Barry was and is because i don't think that the IBB was used as often and in the same way now that it was then.

Stealing bases at a successful% matters a lot actually - Here's a good article on it - http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/RuaneT/valueadd_art.htm

And Aaron was intentionally walked plenty - He's second all-time in career IBB.

[Ubiquitous]

If Hank got IBB a lot like Barry the difference wouldn't be all that great. Up until about the 2002 season Barry's IBB were not as crazy as they are now.

Barry's IBB are higher before 2002 then Hank's but at the same time Hank only finished first in IBB once.. Whereas Barry even before steroids was always finishing first.

[natsnsoxfan]

i know that, ive looked this stuff up while ive been posting. My point was, pitchers back then seemed to be a lot more willing to pitch to dangerous hitters, in todays era i think he would've been IBB and pitched around and walked even more.

[Ubiquitous]

i know that, ive looked this stuff up while ive been posting. My point was, pitchers back then seemed to be a lot more willing to pitch to dangerous hitters, in todays era i think he would've been IBB and pitched around and walked even more.

Okay but how much more? 5 more IBB's? 10 more?

In 2001 when Bonds was on his way to 73 homers teams only IBB'ed him 35 times. In his prime Bonds could expect about 30 IBB's a year. Hank about 17 or so. Bonds when he was playing was the number one most IBB guy year in and year out. Hank when he was playing was about the third most walked guy year in year out. So what would Hank's IBB look like if he kept the same kind of fear? 20? 25?

[natsnsoxfan]

Okay but how much more? 5 more IBB's? 10 more?

In 2001 when Bonds was on his way to 73 homers teams only IBB'ed him 35 times. In his prime Bonds could expect about 30 IBB's a year. Hank about 17 or so. Bonds when he was playing was the number one most IBB guy year in and year out. Hank when he was playing was about the third most walked guy year in year out. So what would Hank's IBB look like if he kept the same kind of fear? 20? 25?

Possibly only that much but it would add up over a long period of time. You also have to think that he would be pitched around more and that would lead to more walks of the regular type too.

[Old Sweater]

i know that, ive looked this stuff up while ive been posting. My point was, pitchers back then seemed to be a lot more willing to pitch to dangerous hitters, in todays era i think he would've been IBB and pitched around and walked even more.


Possibly only that much but it would add up over a long period of time. You also have to think that he would be pitched around more and that would lead to more walks of the regular type too.


Plus, if Aaron bulked up 50 to 60lbs. over his rookie weigh and looked like a middle linebacker, things would be pretty even in this comparision for IBB.

Barry's IBB are higher before 2002 then Hank's but at the same time Hank only finished first in IBB once.. Whereas Barry even before steroids was always finishing first.

Wouldn't "before steriod accusations" be a little more accurate? Baseball players have been cheating as long as the game of baseball has been played.

[Ubiquitous]

Wouldn't "before steriod accusations" be a little more accurate? Baseball players have been cheating as long as the game of baseball has been played.



No, and what does cheating for a long time have to do with IBB?

IBB's have nothing to do with the rightness and wrongness of taking steroids.

[Old Sweater]

No, and what does cheating for a long time have to do with IBB?


Cheating for a long time has nothing to do with IBB. Just saying baseball players will cheat as long as the game is played and steriods is cheating. You really think the skinny Bonds would have got as many IBB as the new version?


IBB's have nothing to do with the rightness and wrongness of taking steroids.[/

Not the rightness(which there is no such thing) or wrongness but if you take them and put on 50lbs. of muscle mass it has a lot to do with IBB when your crushing the ball like Bonds. Depends on one's view if Bonds took them or not, I like most people think he did. If Hank Aaron would have bulked up 40 to 50lbs over his rookie weight and started hitting 50 to 60 hr's every year instead of his usual 30 to 40 something, he to would have had a lot more IBB.


Put the original Bonds in Aarons era and a bulked up Aaron in Bonds era and you would be having a reverse decision in this debate of IBB.

[Ubiquitous]

In 1988 Barry "Skinny" BOnds was 7th in the league in IBB, the next year he was 4th. By 1991 "Skinny" Bonds was 2nd in the league. From From 1992 to 1998 he finished first every single time.

Barry Bonds didn't start to get his ludicrous IBB numbers until 2002. I never said that skinny Barry would get IBB'ed 60 to 70 times. That was never my point.

Put the original Bonds in Aarons era and a bulked up Aaron in Bonds era and you would be having a reverse decision in this debate of IBB.

Again though Bonds pre-steroids was finishing first in IBB's every year, year in year out. Hank Aaron never did that. Put Barry back in Hank's day and there is absolutely no reason to think that Barry would not get walked a ton. Now then saying if Hank Aaron was Barry Bonds he would get walked more is a bit pointless. Because Hank Aaron is nothing like Barry Bonds. Put Hank Aaron on steroids and he still wouldn't be Barry Bonds. They are different players. Bonds was always a patient hitter willing to take a walk, Hank Aaron was never strong in the walk department. He generally tended to put the ball in play which is one of the reasons why his IBB's were not as high as other players. Much for the same reason that Sammy Sosa's IBB"s were not high except for the one season in which Sammy had nobody else in the lineup.

Now before I start a 9 million post debate about Sosa-Aaron. I am not saying the two are similar.

[Old Sweater]

Now before I start a 9 million post debate about Sosa-Aaron. I am not saying the two are similar.


What about a debate of what number Bonds would be chasing if "Wristroids" was available and used by Aaron? Could see Ol' Hank strolling to the plate with wrists the size of a tree trunk then telling the reporters it was from a new fangled arthritis cream he was using.

I start the bidding at 900hr.

[John Shoemaker]

What about a debate of what number Bonds would be chasing if "Wristroids" was available and used by Aaron? Could see Ol' Hank strolling to the plate with wrists the size of a tree trunk then telling the reporters it was from a new fangled arthritis cream he was using.

I start the bidding at 900hr.

If Babe Ruth hadn't pitched so well for 5 years his total might well have been over 900.

[west coast orange and black]

maximum jack: ...as for Barry getting death threats, I don't know

the giants and feds agreed to wait 'til the 2006 season was over to reveal, but yes, bonds did receive death threats last year.

as for bonds not having to go through what the hammer went through:
a) a death threat is a death threat;
b) while the nasty calls of extreme hate and rascism from the seats has diminished almost entirely, it has been replaced with nasty and hateful language involving bonds' immediate family members.

where would one expect to ever see someone, without shame or hesitation, pour their beer on someone who had fallen down? bonds had this happen to him at dodger stadium a few seasons back.

[Old Sweater]

If Babe Ruth hadn't pitched so well for 5 years his total might well have been over 900.

Could be well over a 1000 if he had juiced. Wait he was known as a juicer.

Just think of the number if beeroids had been available!!! Throw in doggroids, and 5 extra years of hitting and Aaron would have been chasing a number created by a house with beer breath.

Ruth bidding starts at 1000hr.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I would assume, for the sake of argument, that if a player hit a career-high 22 homers in a season, then reached 29 the next season, then hit 52 the next and 40 the year after that, then never hit more than 30 in a season after that, that something was going on with that player.

If you rule out rule-changes and park effect, then what are you left with?

Um, was George Foster ever accused of taking illegal performance-enhancers?

[Captain Cold Nose]

I would assume, for the sake of argument, that if a player hit a career-high 22 homers in a season, then reached 29 the next season, then hit 52 the next and 40 the year after that, then never hit more than 30 in a season after that, that something was going on with that player.

If you rule out rule-changes and park effect, then what are you left with?

Um, was George Foster ever accused of taking illegal performance-enhancers?

Only Karate.

[honus14]

TR, I'm just saying what actually happened. They did indeed find liquid greenies in Mays locker, now whether or not he was a frequent user of greenies is up for debate. And Aaron wasn't, because while he admitted to using greenies, he never admitted to being a flagrant user.

"They" did not find anything in Willie Mays' locker. John Milner testified that he saw what he assumed to be amphetamines in Mays' locker. Mays has denied it. Story here. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959943,00.html?iid=chix-sphere)

[west coast orange and black]

Mays has denied it.

it is well-known that hundreds of players regularly used uppers.
it is also well-known that superstars of the 50s and 60s were among the users.
the concoction known as "red juice" was regularly downed by tons of players.

there are newspaper and magazine stories such as the one linked. and then there is what is known from when the players talk amongst themselves and with trusted friends.

[Monarch]

monarch: When Bonds was a Pirate, he wore a size 10 cleat. Now he wears a size 13.
[Bonds] now wears a 7 5/8 hat, too. I can't remember what he wore before, but I do know that it was significantly smaller.
no need to try to rely on memory. simply return to your source of the 10-to-13 (mis)information.

Source was a former MLB player that played against Barry for several years and knows him personally. Someone I would consider credible.

[west coast orange and black]

the epilogue of fainaru-wada and williams' paperback version contains the information of bonds' jersey, cap and cleat size increase. and according to the writers, clubhouse manager mike murphy, not a player or former player, was their source for the size differences.

[Old Sweater]

the epilogue of fainaru-wada and williams' paperback version contains the information of bonds' jersey, cap and cleat size increase. and according to the writers, clubhouse manager mike murphy, not a player or former player, was their source for the size differences.


So does this book have the cleat size in it?

Is it a size 13?

[west coast orange and black]

os: So does this book have the cleat size in it?
apparently the paperback version does.

Is it a size 13?
not in real life, past or present.