BBF HOF voting thread 4/14 - 5/4/2007

[jalbright]

Let the voting begin! For anyone who has not participated before, please read the rules posted here The Rules (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=852492&postcount=2)

Voting in this cycle will end at 11:59:59 pm Eastern Time, May 4, 2007.

Please note that the contributor ballot will not be counted again until November.

Other information of note is who is in the BBF HOF.

BBF HOF membership by category (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=852494&postcount=3)

BBF HOF membership listed alphabetically (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=852497&postcount=4)

Last month's results are posted. You are requested to pay particular attention to those individuals receiving 50% or more of the vote last month, as they are the most likely candidates to be elected this month. In fact, I have specific posts on players receiving 50% or more of last month's vote:

Players with half or more of last month's vote (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=852515&postcount=7)

Player ballot results from last month (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=852506&postcount=5)


Jim Albright

[Windy City Fan]

Missed last ballot, so I'll hurry up and get this ballot in.

Luis Aparicio
Sal Bando
Ken Boyer
Roger Bresnahan
Gavvy Cravath
Orlando Cepeda
Darrell Evans
Wes Farrell
Red Faber
John Franco
Heinie Groh
Frank Howard
Keith Hernandez
Addie Joss
Fred McGriff
Bid McPhee
Dan Quisenberry
Epa Rixey
Edd Rousch
Victor Starffin
Bruce Sutter
Joe Torre
Bobby Wallace
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn

[Sockeye]

Harold Baines, of
Jake Beckley, 1b
Jim Bottomley, 1b
Jose Canseco, of
Orlando Cepeda, 1b
Chili Davis, of
Darrell Evans, 3b
Dwight Evans, of
Andres Galarraga, 1b
Dave Kingman, 1b
Chuck Klein, of
Heinie Manush, of
Edgar Martinez, 3b
Fred McGriff, 1b
John Olerud, 1b
Al Oliver, of
Rafael Palmeiro, 1b
Tony Perez, 1b
Vada Pinson, of
Jim Rice, of
Sam Rice, of
Jimmy Ryan, of
Rusty Staub, of
Larry Walker, of
Mickey Welch, p

[philipthegreat]

Andres Galarraga 1b
Larry Walker of

[jalbright]

My 4/14-5/4/07 ballot

key:
red=Japanese League
blue=Negro Leagues
green=19th century

The only change in my ballot is replacing the elected Nellie Fox with Sam Rice.

Players

1. Luis Aparicio, ss
2. John Beckwith, IF
3. Charlie Bennett, c
4. Akira Bessho, p (Japan)
5. Ken Boyer, 3b
6. Jim Bunning, p
7. Orlando Cepeda, 1b
8. Will Clark, 1b
9. George Gore, of
10. Frank Grant, 2b
11. Burleigh Grimes, p
12. Heinie Groh, 3b
13. Pete Hill, of
14. Kazuhisa Inao p (Japan)
15. Joe Kelley, of
16. Carl Mays, p
17. Jose Mendez, p
18. Dobie Moore, ss
19. Hiromitsu Ochiai 1B/3B (Japan)
20. Dan Quisenberry, p
21. Sam Rice, of
22. Red Ruffing p
23. Victor Starffin p (Japan)
24. Bruce Sutter, p
25. Lou Whitaker, 2b

[Erik Bedard]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
John Beckwith
Ken Boyer
Jim Bunning
Will Clark
Orlando Cepeda
Gavvy Cravath
Dwight Evans
Lefty Gomez
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Keith Hernandez
Kazuhisa Inao
Joe Kelley
Chuck Klein
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Dan Quisenberry
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Victor Starffin
Bobby Wallace
Lou Whitaker

[Captain Cold Nose]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
John Beckwith
Pete Browning
Jim Bunning
Bob Caruthers
Kiki Cuyler
Leon Day
Frank Grant
Burleigh Grimes
Pete Hill
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Jose Mendez
Rafael Palmeiro
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Jimmy Ryan
Hilton Smith
Victor Starffin
Bruce Sutter
George Van Haltren
Mickey Welch

[2Chance]

John Beckwith
Sal Bando
Charlie Bennett
Roger Bresnahan
Pete Browning
Jim Bunning
Orlando Cepeda
Perucho Cepeda
Will Clark
Darrell Evans
George Gore
Frank Grant
Heinie Groh
Pete Hill
Kazuhisa Inao
Carl Mays
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Rafael Palmeiro
Dan Quisenberry
Red Ruffing
Victor Starffin
Bruce Sutter
Bobby Wallace
Lou Whitaker

I checked out Red Ruffing during his Yankee years from age 25-40 and he fares much better than over his entire career. At 19, I think he was brought up too soon with Boston (where he sorta stunk) and, while I won't say he hung on too long, at age 42 he was 3-5 with the ChiSox in 53 innings work and a 6.11 ERA. As a Yank he went 231-124 with 6 All-Star appearances and was near the top of the league leaders in almost every meaningful category, then went on to post a 7-2 record in World Series play. So Ruffing gets Hilton Smith's spot on my ballot for now.

[Freakshow]

Average months on my ballot edged up to 10.8, a new record. This will likely grow as the electorate and mysef differ on whom we see as the Hall's lower tier. Lou Whitaker extends his record for most months on my ballot. The top five that I think the electorate is missing: 1) Red Faber, 2) Lou Whitaker, 3) Da. Evans, 4) Bid McPhee, 5) Ken Boyer.

14 Barnes-2B*
2 Beckley-1B
19 Boyer K-3B*
5 Bunning-P
2 Clark W-1B*
18 Evans Da.-3B*
6 Evans Dw.-RF*
17 Faber-P
11 Glasscock-SS*
17 Gore-CF*
6 Groh-3B*
6 Hernandez-1B*
13 Kelley-LF
2 Mays C-P*
12 McGriff F-1B*
17 McPhee-2B
1 Mendez-P
7 Palmeiro-1B*
10 Perez-1B
14 Rixey-P
5 Roush-CF
15 Ruffing-P
17 Wallace-SS
24 Whitaker-2B*
11 Wynn J.-CF*
10.8 ave mos on ballot

* = not a member of the Coop HOF
bold = member of the Hall of Merit

[J W]

Elmer Flick (#13)... Larry Walker (x)... Mickey Welch (#12)... Jimmy Wynn (#11)

Luis Aparicio
Roger Bresnahan
Jake Beckley
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Bob Caruthers
Orlando Cepeda
Will Clark
Frank Grant
Heinie Groh
Pete Hill
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays
Edd Roush
Jimmy Ryan
Hilton Smith
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
George Van Haltren
Larry Walker
Bobby Wallace
Mickey Welch
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn

[leecemark]

Aparicio, L.
Barnes, R.
Beckwith, J
Bennett, C.
Boyer, K.
Cepeda, O
Doyle, L.
Glasscock, J
Groh, H.
Hernandez, K.
Hill, P
Inao, K
Mays, C.
Maranville, R.
Mendez, J.
McGriff, F
McPhee, B.
Nettles, G
Rice, J.
Rousch, E
Ruffing, R.
Sewell, J.
Stephens, V.
B. Wallace
Whitaker, L

[rsuriyop]

1. Jake Beckley
2. Pete Browning
3. Norm Cash
4. Will Clark
5. Gavvy Cravath
6. Larry Doyle
7. Dwight Evans
8. Jack Glasscock
9. Lefty Gomez
10.Gore Gore
11. Bob Johnson
12. Grant "Homerun" Johnson
13. Addie Joss
14. Joe Kelley
15. Carl Mays
16. Jose Mendez
17. Tony Oliva
18. Spottswood Poles
19. Dan Quisenberry
20. Edd Roush
21. Jimmy Ryan
22. Urban Shocker
23. Reggie Smith
24. Victor Starfin
25. Lou Whitaker

[BlueBlood]

Still rollin' with the "these players are enshrined in Cooperstown, but not here" argument, along with another choice name or two. My ballot is identical to last election's with the exclusion of Nellie Fox due to that player's induction. Only new addition is at the bottom.

1. Chief Bender
2. Jim Bottomley
3. Jim Bunning
4. Orlando Cepeda
5. Jack Chesbro
6. Earle Combs
7. Kiki Cuyler
8. Lefty Gomez
9. Harry Hooper
10. Catfish Hunter
11. Addie Joss
12. Chuck Klein
13. Freddie Lindstrom
14. Heinie Manush
15. Rube Marquard
16. Fred McGriff
17. Sam Rice
18. Edd Roush
19. Joe Sewell
20. Larry Walker
21. Lloyd Waner
22. Vic Willis
23. Hack Wilson
24. Ross Youngs
25. leading Japanese pitcher

[BlueBlood]

Andres Galarraga 1b
Larry Walker of

I mean, that's certainly strategic and all, but it's going to lessen the chances of anyone being inducted. :ughh

[jalbright]

I mean, that's certainly strategic and all, but it's going to lessen the chances of anyone being inducted. :ughh

Actually, short ballots don't count. But ballots like yours with 11 candidates supported by no one this month or last other than the voter (and just 4 of the 16 candidates with a shot of being elected before your ballot was cast) are quite damaging to the chances of electing anyone.

Jim Albright

[AG2004]

Still rollin' with the "these players are enshrined in Cooperstown, but not here" argument, along with another choice name or two. My ballot is identical to last election's with the exclusion of Nellie Fox due to that player's induction. Only new addition is at the bottom.



The main problem with the "these players are enshrined in Cooperstown" argument is that many of us believe that Cooperstown inducted quite a few people who didn't deserve the honor, especially during the years when Frankie Frisch was in charge of the Veterans Committee. We BBFHOF voters want to do a better job of honoring players than we believe Cooperstown have done. We are not attempting to duplicate the membership of Cooperstown, nor merely to rank their selections from top to bottom.

Blueblood, when I saw your ballot from the last election, you said you used the list of people in Cooperstown who aren't in the BBFHOF, and the only two people outside Cooperstown who weren't on your ballot were McGriff and Walker, both of whom are contemporary players. I know you are trying to do the best you can, and want to see people elected, but I think that your knowledge of baseball history is limited. (We all had a limited knowledge of baseball history at one time, so it's nothing to be ashamed of.)

I suggest looking at some of the top vote-getters from recent BBFHOF elections, and comparing them to some of the players enshrined in Cooperstown who happen to be on your ballot. If you feel that some of these players who aren't in Cooperstown are better than some of the players who are in Cooperstown, then feel free to submit a new ballot by May 4. In any case, by looking at those players and their times, you get to learn more about baseball, and learning about baseball is almost always fun.

-------
Here's a handy list of people who had 4 or more votes in the last BBFHOF election, but are not in Cooperstown.

Ross Barnes
John Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
Charlie Bennett
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Will Clark
Dwight Evans
George Gore
Frank Grant (Negro Leagues)
Heinie Groh
Keith Hernandez
Kazuhisa Inao (Japan)
Edgar Martinez
Carl Mays
Fred McGriff
Dobie Moore (Negro Leagues)
Rafael Palmeiro
Dan Quisenberry
Jim Rice
Victor Starffin (Japan)
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

[Freakshow]

Still rollin' with the "these players are enshrined in Cooperstown, but not here" argument, along with another choice name or two. My ballot is identical to last election's with the exclusion of Nellie Fox due to that player's induction. Only new addition is at the bottom.

1. Chief Bender
2. Jim Bottomley
5. Jack Chesbro
6. Earle Combs
7. Kiki Cuyler
9. Harry Hooper
10. Catfish Hunter
13. Freddie Lindstrom
14. Heinie Manush
15. Rube Marquard
17. Sam Rice
21. Lloyd Waner
22. Vic Willis
24. Ross Youngs

Your ballot has 14 players that we elected to the Hall of Mistakes (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41234), meaning they rank among the worst 15% of players in the HOF.

[J W]

That may be true, but remember we just voted another member of the Hall of Mistakes (Rollie Fingers) into the BBF HOF. Although I don't think Fingers belongs in the Hall of Mistakes.

Personally I'm with most of the others, that list AG2004 provided includes higher quality players than those leftovers from the Vets Committee. But at this point in the voting, if someone wants to fill out the ballot with actual members of Cooperstown I say it counts.

So, I hope that you change the ballot BlueBlood but it's not the end of the world if you don't.

[Freakshow]

That may be true, but remember we just voted another member of the Hall of Mistakes (Rollie Fingers) into the BBF HOF. Although I don't think Fingers belongs in the Hall of Mistakes.

So, I hope that you change the ballot BlueBlood but it's not the end of the world if you don't.
I agree that Fingers was a mistaken Mistake. I would've rather seen Wilson or Gomez names as mistakes (two more names that somehow found there way onto BlueBlood's ballot).

Fingers was one of the last two guys elected, as the project was petering out. That hardly changes the fact that the 14 Hall of Mistakes players he lists are all bad choices, deserving of their elections in that project.

[dgarza]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Jim Bunning
Orlando Cepeda
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Bob Johnson
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Edgar Martinez
Bobby Mathews
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Cal McVey
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Al Rosen
Lee Smith
Bobby Veach
Larry Walker
Mickey Welch
Hack Wilson

[TheSlaff]

Ross Barnes
John Beckwith
Charlie Bennett
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Jim Bunning
Bob Caruthers
Orlando Cepeda
Will Clark
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Keith Hernandez
Addie Joss
Joe Kelley
Chuck Klein
Edgar Martinez
Carl Mays
Jose Mendez
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Joe Sewell
Bruce Sutter
Lou Whitaker

:gt

[AG2004]

My May 4, 2004 ballot is as follows:

John Beckwith
Akira Bessho
Bobby Bonds
Jim Bunning
Perucho Cepeda
Will Clark
George Gore
Frank Grant
Heinie Groh
Pete Hill
Kazuhisa Inao
Home Run Johnson
Joe Kelley
Carl Mays
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Hiromitsu Ochiai
Dickey Pearce
Spotswood Poles
Dan Quisenberry
Jimmy Sheckard
Victor Starffin
Joe Start
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn

I believe that I am the first person here to cast a vote for Sheckard. A few months ago, I posted a Keltner List for Sheckard in the BBFHOF discussion thread, and the evidence led me to believe that Sheckard was worthy of induction into the BBFHOF.

[jalbright]

We elected no one last voting cycle, with only 13 valid votes cast. The results:


Name ......votes pct Name ........votes pct
Bunning, Jim 9 69.2 Aparicio, Luis 6 46.2
Cepeda, Orlando 9 69.2 Bando, Sal 1 7.7
Mays, Carl 9 69.2 Baines, Harold 1 7.7
Whitaker, Lou 9 69.2 Barnes, Ross 6 46.2
Clark, Will 8 61.5 Beckley, Jake 6 46.2
Groh, Heinie 8 61.5 Beckwith, John 7 53.8
Mendez, Jose 8 61.5 Bender, Chief 1 7.7
Beckwith, John 7 53.8 Bennett, Charlie 4 30.8
Gore, George 7 53.8 Bessho, Akira 2 15.4
Rice, Sam 7 53.8 Bonds, Bobby 3 23.1
Starffin, Victor 7 53.8 Bottomley, Jim 2 15.4
Aparicio, Luis 6 46.2 Boyer, Ken 6 46.2
Barnes, Ross 6 46.2 Bresnahan, Roger 2 15.4
Beckley, Jake 6 46.2 Browning, Pete 5 38.5
Boyer, Ken 6 46.2 Bunning, Jim 9 69.2
Hill, Pete 6 46.2 Canseco, Jose 1 7.7
Joss, Addie 6 46.2 Caruthers, Bob 3 23.1
Kelley, Joe 6 46.2 Cash, Norm 1 7.7
Klein, Chuck 6 46.2 Cepeda, Orlando 9 69.2
Palmeiro, Rafael 6 46.2 Cepeda, Perucho 2 15.4
Roush, Edd 6 46.2 Chesbro, Jack 1 7.7
Browning, Pete 5 38.5 Clark, Will 8 61.5
Grant, Frank 5 38.5 Combs, Earle 1 7.7
Inao, Kazuhisa 5 38.5 Cravath, Gavvy 2 15.4
McGriff, Fred 5 38.5 Cuyler, Kiki 2 15.4
Quisenberry, Dan 5 38.5 Davis, Chili 1 7.7
Rice, Jim 5 38.5 Day, Leon 1 7.7
Sutter, Bruce 5 38.5 Doyle, Larry 2 15.4
Wallace, Bobby 5 38.5 Evans, Darrell 3 23.1
Bennett, Charlie 4 30.8 Evans, Dwight 4 30.8
Evans, Dwight 4 30.8 Faber, Red 1 7.7
Gomez, Lefty 4 30.8 Galarraga, Andres 1 7.7
Hernandez, Keith 4 30.8 Glasscock, Jack 3 23.1
Martinez, Edgar 4 30.8 Gomez, Lefty 4 30.8
Ruffing, Red 4 30.8 Gore, George 7 53.8
Ryan, Jimmy 4 30.8 Grant, Frank 5 38.5
Walker, Larry 4 30.8 Grimes, Burleigh 3 23.1
Welch, Mickey 4 30.8 Groh, Heinie 8 61.5
Bonds, Bobby 3 23.1 Hernandez, Keith 4 30.8
Caruthers, Bob 3 23.1 Hill, Pete 6 46.2
Evans, Darrell 3 23.1 Hooper, Harry 1 7.7
Glasscock, Jack 3 23.1 Hunter, Catfish 1 7.7
Grimes, Burleigh 3 23.1 Inao, Kazuhisa 5 38.5
Manush, Heinie 3 23.1 Johnson, Bob 2 15.4
Moore, Dobie 3 23.1 Johnson, Home Run 2 15.4
Sewell, Joe 3 23.1 Joss, Addie 6 46.2
Wynn, Jimmy 3 23.1 Kelley, Joe 6 46.2
Bessho, Akira 2 15.4 Kingman, Dave 1 7.7
Bottomley, Jim 2 15.4 Klein, Chuck 6 46.2
Bresnahan, Roger 2 15.4 Leach, Toimmy 1 7.7
Cepeda, Perucho 2 15.4 Lindstrom, Freddie 1 7.7
Cravath, Gavvy 2 15.4 Manush, Heinie 3 23.1
Cuyler, Kiki 2 15.4 Maranville, Rabbit 1 7.7
Doyle, Larry 2 15.4 Marquard, Rube 1 7.7
Johnson, Bob 2 15.4 Martinez, Edgar 4 30.8
Johnson, Home Run 2 15.4 Mathews, Bobby 1 7.7
McPhee, Bid 2 15.4 Mays, Carl 9 69.2
Ochiai, Hiromitsu 2 15.4 McCormick, Jim 1 7.7
Perez, Tony 2 15.4 McGriff, Fred 5 38.5
Poles, Spotswood 2 15.4 McPhee, Bid 2 15.4
Rixey, Eppa 2 15.4 McVey, Cal 1 7.7
Smith, Hilton 2 15.4 Mendez, Jose 8 61.5
Smith, Lee 2 15.4 Moore, Dobie 3 23.1
Van Haltren, George 2 15.4 Nettles, Graig 1 7.7
Wilson, Hack 2 15.4 Ochiai, Hiromitsu 2 15.4
Bando, Sal 1 7.7 Olerud, John 1 7.7
Baines, Harold 1 7.7 Oliva, Tony 1 7.7
Bender, Chief 1 7.7 Oliver, Al 1 7.7
Canseco, Jose 1 7.7 Palmeiro, Rafael 6 46.2
Cash, Norm 1 7.7 Pearce, Dickey 1 7.7
Chesbro, Jack 1 7.7 Perez, Tony 2 15.4
Combs, Earle 1 7.7 Pinson, Vada 1 7.7
Davis, Chili 1 7.7 Poles, Spotswood 2 15.4
Day, Leon 1 7.7 Quisenberry, Dan 5 38.5
Faber, Red 1 7.7 Rice, Jim 5 38.5
Galarraga, Andres 1 7.7 Rice, Sam 7 53.8
Hooper, Harry 1 7.7 Rixey, Eppa 2 15.4
Hunter, Catfish 1 7.7 Rosen, Al 1 7.7
Kingman, Dave 1 7.7 Roush, Edd 6 46.2
Leach, Toimmy 1 7.7 Ruffing, Red 4 30.8
Lindstrom, Freddie 1 7.7 Ryan, Jimmy 4 30.8
Maranville, Rabbit 1 7.7 Sheckard, Jimmy 1 7.7
Marquard, Rube 1 7.7 Shocker, Urban 1 7.7
Mathews, Bobby 1 7.7 Sewell, Joe 3 23.1
McCormick, Jim 1 7.7 Smith, Hilton 2 15.4
McVey, Cal 1 7.7 Smith, Reggie 1 7.7
Nettles, Graig 1 7.7 Smith, Lee 2 15.4
Olerud, John 1 7.7 Starffin, Victor 7 53.8
Oliva, Tony 1 7.7 Start, Joe 1 7.7
Oliver, Al 1 7.7 Staub, Rusty 1 7.7
Pearce, Dickey 1 7.7 Stephens, Vern 1 7.7
Pinson, Vada 1 7.7 Sutter, Bruce 5 38.5
Rosen, Al 1 7.7 Van Haltren, George 2 15.4
Sheckard, Jimmy 1 7.7 Veach, Bobby 1 7.7
Shocker, Urban 1 7.7 Walker, Larry 4 30.8
Smith, Reggie 1 7.7 Wallace, Bobby 5 38.5
Start, Joe 1 7.7 Waner, Lloyd 1 7.7
Staub, Rusty 1 7.7 Welch, Mickey 4 30.8
Stephens, Vern 1 7.7 Whitaker, Lou 9 69.2
Veach, Bobby 1 7.7 Willis, Vic 1 7.7
Waner, Lloyd 1 7.7 Wilson, Hack 2 15.4
Willis, Vic 1 7.7 Wynn, Jimmy 3 23.1
Youngs, Ross 1 7.7 Youngs, Ross 1 7.7