Best Curveball Today/Historically

[nerfan]

Today, my pick would be Barry Zito
Historically, Dwight Gooden in '85 and Koufax in '66 had really good curves

[KCGHOST]

Camilo Pascual had a great curveball in his day. Zito's curve has a big break, but doesn't seem to give the hitters that much trouble to hit. Felix Hernandez' curve is much harder to hit.

[Jose Reyes]

I like AJ Burnett's. I hate Barry Zito's curve, it's big and slow but not that sharp.

[natsnsoxfan]

Pedro's was pretty vicious in his prime. Roy Halladay's is nasty too.

[rsuriyop]

I'd have to nominate Dontrelle Willis as having the best curve today. Historically? Well... :shrug:

[hubkittel]

Historically, Dwight Gooden in '85

i always thought gooden had the best curve i ever saw. it wasn't that picture perfect 12 to 6 fall off the table curve but what always impressed me about it was how 'heavy' it was. i've never run into to anyone who ever really agreed with me about gooden's curve so it feels good not to be alone anymore. :laugh

among recent players, matt morris had a sweet curve. and historically, we can't talk about curveballs without mentioning bert blyleven.

[FatAngel]

He did throw it maybe 30 times after 1994, but Clemens had a hook that seemed to drop a foot in the zone. Not pretty, but fast and stunning.

[plask_stirlac]

Felix's was crazy yesterday, bombing the Sox to smitereens.

[The Dude]

Ben Sheet's. The break changes on it everytime I see it.

[catbox_9]

It may not be the best, but Verlander has a pretty good curve to go with his fastball (which is pretty good, too).

[BoSoxNation]

I think the best curve in the game right now it Barry Zito's and the best all time is easily Gooden

[natsnsoxfan]

I disagree, like someone said earlier Zito's is big and slow but it isn't very sharp. BTW does the mystical Eephus pitch qualify as a curve?

[otis89]

Rich Hill has a pretty good curve. He was perfect through 5 against the Brewers in his first start of the season, and his curve looked very good.

[IronMike]

Today, definitely Sheets. Just watch his 18 K game against the Braves in 04.

[Zito75]

Sheets or Zito, but Koufax all time.

[STLCards2]

Adam Wainright's curve is moving up the charts. Just ask Carlos Beltran. It is a bit slow like Zito's, but has really late movement. It looks like a high,slow fastball that drops like a brick.

[natsnsoxfan]

Oswalt's is pretty nasty too. Hes right up there.

[Monarch]

Adam Wainright's curve is moving up the charts. Just ask Carlos Beltran. It is a bit slow like Zito's, but has really late movement. It looks like a high,slow fastball that drops like a brick.

I love it. I heard an interview in the offseason with a New York reporter and Carlos Beltran. The reporter said that it took him a week to get over Beltran not swinging at strike 3. He finally got over it when Beltran told him that the pitch was unhittable!

The curveball is a lost art. Most pitchers today have switched to the slider. Which is one of the reasons we are seeing an increase in arm injuries and surgeries.

Wainright's curve is good, but let's not forget Carpenter and Matt Morris has a pretty good one, too.

[strosfan]

I think Daryl Kile's curve was one of the best.

[plask_stirlac]

Looper should have a good one to fit his name.

Joe Nathan's is nasty for such a newly employed pitch for him.

[KCGHOST]

I think the best curve in the game right now it Barry Zito's and the best all time is easily Gooden

You are joking aren't you??

[ChrisLDuncan]

Zito, King Felix, and Sheets all have good ones...Felix's high 80s curve is hard to ignore. Historically I gotta go Koufax.

[nerfan]

Zito, King Felix, and Sheets all have good ones...Felix's high 80s curve is hard to ignore. Historically I gotta go Koufax.

Sheets today is really really good.

[digglahhh]

Oswalt's is pretty nasty too. Hes right up there.

I'm surprised it took that many posts before Oswalt was mentioned, he was actually the first guy who leaped to mind when I saw this post.

[tearforamariner]

For all time, no wants to bring up Blyleven? Johnny Bench, Reggie Jackson and Rod Carew all called it the toughest breaking pitch they ever faced.

[Mygirljess]

Yep, Blyleven not bad. What about the Kooz-man? Jerry Koosman. 80 miles per hour, nobody could make contact.

[KevinWI]

Can't believe nobody said Phil Hughes. I think his curve is pretty good.

As for Sheets, I saw him strike out Barry Bonds (one of the best hitters of this generation) with that curve. Nuff said.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

For a short time Shawn Estes had one of the nastiest curves anyone ever saw.

[Imgran]

Joakim Soria has the best curveball in Major League Baseball. Big, slow, and deadly. It makes hitters look ridiculous and no one hits it. I'm absolutely flabbergasted that no one has mentioned it yet..

/thread

Historically, I donno. I haven't seen a lot of curveballs.

[DodgerBlue8188]

Clayton Kershaw anybody :waving

[Tenorman]

Halladay's curve might be good, but he has nowhere near the best one on his team. That honor belongs to Scott Downs. His curve is just filthy, and he has such confidence in it that he will throw it at any point in the count. He dropped a few on the Twins the other night that made batters look like little leaguers. Nasty!

[babaganoosh]

Halladay's curve might be good, but he has nowhere near the best one on his team. That honor belongs to Scott Downs. His curve is just filthy, and he has such confidence in it that he will throw it at any point in the count. He dropped a few on the Twins the other night that made batters look like little leaguers. Nasty!
What's scary is that Downs' slider is almost as sick too.

And though he isn't really the best, but I'd just like to throw in Ted Lilly.

[MyDogSparty]

I think Bert Blyleven, Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax had great curveballs. Both Ryan and Koufax could bring the heat but when their curve was working they were literally unhittable.

Today, I hear that Clay Kershaw has a pretty good curve. I haven't seen it but I'm looking forward to checking it out.

[slugger33]

When Verlander is on, his curveball is nearly unhittable.

[StanTheMan]

Can't believe nobody said Phil Hughes. I think his curve is pretty good.

As for Sheets, I saw him strike out Barry Bonds (one of the best hitters of this generation) with that curve. Nuff said.

Care to comment on the other 1,538 strikeouts Bonds had? Nuff Said? Give me a break.

[StanTheMan]

All the "when player X is on.. his curveball is great" are nonsense. When nearly any major league pitcher is ON, his curveball, should he throw one, is a great pitch. Even no-names throw no hitters.

It's the defining, memorable, highlight uses of the curveball that separate the men from the boys in this thread. Sure, I'm biased, but Wainwrights beauty of a curve, freezing Beltran like a statue? That's the biggest curve ball in recent years that I can remember....

68076


Having the stones to throw it in such a big moment, and pulling it off as well.... THAT'S an Uncle Charlie.

[Zito75]

Clayton Kershaw's curve looked awesome last night!

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

That's an easy one: Nolan Ryan's curveball

Not only was it completely and utterly knee-buckling, he threw it very hard - up to 90MPH. Therein lies the difference because many pitchers past & present have had big benders but could only throw it between 75-82MPH. Ryan's curveball had just as much break but could be almost impossible to hit as the velocity was almost as hard as an average ML fastball. Try hitting that sucker!

[joshfan]

Doc Gooden made Uncle Charlie "Lord Charles"
Yet another reason to be so dissapointed that life and it's temptations outran his talent and desire

[metrotheme]

Now watching Soria, that curve almost 30 MPH slower than his fastball (he throws it around 65 MPH). When you are geared up for 95 MPH and he throws it 65 MPH, as a hitter there is NOTHING you can do except take.

I've heard from many old-timers that Sam Jones "Toothpick" or "Sad Sam" (former Negro Leaguer) and then Chicago Cub / Cleveland Indians / SF Giants pitcher had one of the best curves of that era.

[plask_stirlac]

Can we count Halladay? He blends all his pitches; fastballs break like an angry bee and curves slide out to the side.

[sturg1dj]

I got to watch a game the other day between Felix Hernandez and Justin Verlander and let me say both have awesome curves. I may have to give it to Felix though. In this game Verlander was un-hittable through 4...then get pelted. Felix got pelted early then became un-hittable.

What amazed me was how many times the Tiger hitters were bailing on Felix curveballs...that shows how great his was.

[All-StarLF1713]

brett myers, when hes on has a filthy 12-6

[keystone]

StlCards2 -- You beat me to Wainwright. His is the classic 12-6. Nasty when he's on.

And I thought Kile's was pretty nifty as well.

Historically? It's so hard without being able to "see" anyone pre-TV... I remember Blyleven's as being one of the best. Would love to have seen some of the old-timers...

[CandlestickBum]

Care to comment on the other 1,538 strikeouts Bonds had? Nuff Said? Give me a break.

70/Season. Last 5 full seasons a little less than 50/per

These days that counts as low.

[Dalkowski110]

Bob Gontkosky or Ron Necciai for sheer pitch movement. Gontkosky's pitch probably had more movement than any other drop curve; the only problems were that he had VERY spotty control over it and didn't really have much of a fastball. Necciai threw a big, slow, overhand curve that dropped off the table (helped him strike out 27 guys in a game...he only really had a four-seam fastball and the curve). Sadly, when he tore his rotator cuff, it became too painful to throw.

[brewers08]

Ben Sheets. Who ever gets him mid-season will be getting a great pitcher as long as he says healthy (he did start the all-star game last year). Clayton Kershaw also has a nice one. Zito in his prime as well.

[keystone]

Did anyone see Danks pitch today? He flashed a pretty fierce curve...

[nerfan]

Doc Gooden made Uncle Charlie "Lord Charles"
Yet another reason to be so dissapointed that life and it's temptations outran his talent and desire

That, AND the fact that Dwight Gooden pitched nearly 280 innings in 1985, and 250 in 1986. At the ages of 20 and 21. Unsurprisingly, he came back in 1987 with a much worse fastball. The drugs were bad, no doubt, but how many managers today would let their 20-year-old ace throw 16 complete games?

Interestingly enough, Gooden led the league in strikeouts in both 1984 and 1985, but he had a 11.4 K/9 in 1984 and 8.7 K/9 in 1985.

[joshfan]

Doc Gooden had LORD CHARLES
Beyond compare

[Honus Wagner Rules]

That, AND the fact that Dwight Gooden pitched nearly 280 innings in 1985, and 250 in 1986. At the ages of 20 and 21. Unsurprisingly, he came back in 1987 with a much worse fastball. The drugs were bad, no doubt, but how many managers today would let their 20-year-old ace throw 16 complete games?

Interestingly enough, Gooden led the league in strikeouts in both 1984 and 1985, but he had a 11.4 K/9 in 1984 and 8.7 K/9 in 1985.

The Mets' blatant overuse of Dwight Gooden destroyed his arm. By Godden's mid 20's his arm was shot.

[mwiggins]

That, AND the fact that Dwight Gooden pitched nearly 280 innings in 1985, and 250 in 1986. At the ages of 20 and 21. Unsurprisingly, he came back in 1987 with a much worse fastball. The drugs were bad, no doubt, but how many managers today would let their 20-year-old ace throw 16 complete games?

Interestingly enough, Gooden led the league in strikeouts in both 1984 and 1985, but he had a 11.4 K/9 in 1984 and 8.7 K/9 in 1985.

Here's an interesting quote about the decline Doc's fastball from a '91 SI article...

<<Gooden started losing the hop on his fastball in 1987, after his return from a drug rehabilitation program. He began using a cut fastball, dropping his arm a little in his delivery, which produces a pitch with a slight break that resembles a slider. "I got caught up in what people expected of me," Gooden says. "They'd say, 'You won 2-1, but you only had three strikeouts. What's wrong?' I said to myself, 'Maybe I need another pitch.' I had fooled around with a slider, but I experimented with a cut fastball and said, 'I'll try this.' "

He threw so many cut fastballs that he became sloppy with his highest-octane heater, letting that pitch go from a lower angle, too. His fastball had deteriorated so badly by 1991 that, after one pasting by the Philadelphia Phillies that year, former teammate Wally Backman marched into the Met clubhouse and asked him, "Doc, what are you doing? That thing is about a yard shorter."

"He said he wasn't even trying to cut the ball," Backman says. Gooden had lost the natural action on his fastball. Though the Mets still clock his heater around 93 mph on the slower of the two radar guns used by major league teams, Backman says, "It doesn't have that rise to it anymore."

"He lost the movement because of throwing the cut fastball over time," Stottlemyre says. "And because of injuries to his shoulder, his arm strength wasn't always there to get the proper extension."

Gooden has been placed on the disabled list with shoulder trouble three times in the past six seasons. His natural looseness betrayed him. The ligaments that held his shoulder in place were so loose that they put a greater burden on his rotator cuff, which began to fray.

"That same looseness that made Doc such a great pitcher is part of what led to his physical problems," says Met physician David Altchek. Thirty-three pounds heavier than when he began his career, Gooden now throws with a more erect delivery. He has junked the cut fastball and still resists the urging by Stottlemyre to embrace the changeup—he throws it occasionally but with little confidence—as a legitimate third pitch. Despite his troubles, Gooden has remained essentially a two-pitch pitcher. "But I throw my curve-ball at different speeds and my fastball with different grips," he says.>>

[BigRon]

The best curvebll isn't just the one with the biggest break, or the sharpest break, or the most or least speed, although those things obviously matter. It's also having command over the pitch, being able to throw it where you want when you want to.

That's why Ryan doesn't play an important role in this discussion, at least 'til late in his career.

For me, the best curveballers since I've been watching in the mid-50s;
1. Sandy Koufax
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Camilio Pascual
4. Maybe Sam Jones

There are a few outstanding curveballers today, but not many. The rise of the slider in the 60s and the splitter in the 80s has resulted in few pitchers with good/outstanding curveballs.

[giantsrule]

imma go with a guy whose still one of my faves...



zito...

[mwiggins]

imma go with a guy whose still one of my faves...



zito...

It's got a big break, but it's not really a dominant pitch. He can't live off his curve like a guy like Blyleven could when he had it working. Blyleven could pitch his way out of jams by just throwing curve after curve by hitters.

Even when Zito was pitching well, he only used it about 15-20% of the time. There's a reason that Zito has declined as he lost velocity and command of his fastball.

[VIBaseball]

The rise of the...splitter in the 80s has resulted in few pitchers with good/outstanding curveballs.

I'm glad you mentioned that, BigRon, I was going to.

I remember Ron Darling had a nice classic curveball in his first few years, but then he fell in love with the splitter and scrapped his curve. At least that was my memory of it...in this video, Darling reveals why he changed. An injury to his thumb in September 1987 while fielding a Vince Coleman bunt meant that he couldn't grip the ball and get rotation the same way.

I was at that game, which is better remembered for Terry Pendleton's homer off Roger McDowell, a pivotal moment in the pennant race. Now I have another unhappy memory of it. :sigh:

http://www.metsblog.com/2009/04/15/interview-ron-darling-about-book-curve-ball/

Sid Fernandez had a beautiful sweeping slow curve that he used to drop over the outside corner to righty hitters -- they'd be frozen watching it.

[RangerFanInNE]

right now I'd say Sheets

all time Doc Gooden when he first came up or Kerry Wood

[joshfan]

Sam McDowell was another who mixed his 95 pre roids heat with a curve that fell to earth but he, like doc, was more interested in the destruction rather then the production

[metfan]

For all time, no wants to bring up Blyleven? Johnny Bench, Reggie Jackson and Rod Carew all called it the toughest breaking pitch they ever faced.

Agreed, Blyleven's curve was the best I've seen, and I'm a big Mets fan who saw Gooden pitch many a time. Doc had a great curve, but Bert's was better IMO. Never saw Koufax so don't know how his compared.