Good for Hammerin Hank

[Lindseynelson]

This guy had to take flak on the front end of breaking Babes record.
His whole career he was somehow overlooked due to guys like Mays, Mantle, and even his own teammate Eddie M.
Now he's taking endless barry questions on the back end.
Henry never got his due except in the numbers where it counts.

[Craig S.]

I think it's more than a Braves-Giants game. Aaron has pretty much said he wants nothing to do with the whole publicity thing surrounding Bonds and the home run record.

[SamtheBravesFan]

That's his decision, and I respect him for it.

On a lighter note, Hank IS 73 years old; he can do whatever he wants in my book. ;)

[Cubsworldseries]

I dont see what the big deal is

[Craig S.]

That's his decision, and I respect him for it.

On a lighter note, Hank IS 73 years old; he can do whatever he wants in my book. ;)

Yeah, I agree. He's got the right to do - or not do - whatever he wants.

[TheKingofKings]

I'm happy he has taken a stand against Barry by announcing he will not be in attendance when Barry beats his record, the line is drawn.

[Ubiquitous]

HOw is this a stand against Barry? It might very well be but where does Hank say he is doing this because of Barry?

[PJ-34]

I love Hank for saying he's not going, I heard on my Canadian Sports Channel Sportsnet that he said he chooses not to be at the game and I say bravo, I thought he would just keep quiet and go with it but he stuck up for his record and I say good job.

[plask_stirlac]

Which one game? There would be a whole series of games he could hit 756, and like was said Hank is 73.

Not that he would necessarily go if Barry were in his hometown, facing an emergency 5th starter. That would still be a commotion.

[Ubiquitous]

I personally think a lot of people are reading a lot more into this then there really is.

The record isn't some sort of consecutive game streak like the one Ripken broke. A record in which everybody knows exactly when it is going to occur. In order for Hank to be there when the record is broken he would have to follow Barry around right around the time Barry hits 754. Sure that could only be one game but it could also be 2 weeks. Hank is 72 or 73 years old and he has clearly stated he doesn't want to be running around the country to see his record broken.

On a sidenote I don't think Hank in general likes the fact that he could lose his record. I think this would be true no matter who broke the record and even if there was no such thing as PEDS. The record is important to him, perhaps a validation or payoff for what he had to endure and now he is going to lose that payoff that legacy. I don't think the surpassing of the record would be a joyous event for him and I can understand why he doesn't want to be there and have all the cameras shoved in his face asking how he feels. Like he himself said it would be a no win situation for him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think Aaron is being subtle. By announcing that he is not attending the game when Bonds breaks his record he is telling the public that he doesn't consider Bonds breaking his HR record as legit without having to bash Bonds publically. Here's a good question. If Bonds breaks Aaron's record will he attend A-Rod if A-Rod's breaks his record in about 2015?

[Ubiquitous]

Let me ask you this is there any player that Hank would come out to see break his record? Hank has just never struck me as the kind of guy that would want to be around something like this. He isn't one of those warm and fuzzy guys.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Darn right. Sometimes, I get the impression that he's a very bitter man. Of course, that's understandable. If I had to go what he went through in his life, I'd be bitter too.

[iPod]

Does Henry Aaron strike you as the type of guy who would want to participate in, and in some sense be the center stage of, a bunch of self-congratulatory pomp and circumstance in the first place? I don't know how much this says about his opinion of Bonds and how much it says about his opinions in general.

[flash143817]

He is definitely bitter IMO, but I can see where it would also be difficult to know exactly when the record is going to fall. This isn't '01 when he was homering every other game.

On the other hand, if Barry is sitting at 754 or 755 when the Giants travel to Atlanta and Aaron doesn't show up, then the whole travel excuse is out the window. Then I will be more certain that it is a case of bitterness, because as has been said, Hank doesn't come off as a warm and fuzzy guy.

[bluezebra]

Aaron has always been a class act, before, during, and after his MLB career. I heartily commend him for not giving credence to "Chemical" Barry if he breaks Hank's record.

Bob

[Lindseynelson]

MLB would gladly pay his freight anywhere and as for 73 , , c'mon the guy is quite healthy.
IMO he is sick of always being the second story regarding his hard won records and said I am done

[plask_stirlac]

It could still drag out and make things less appealing.

Let's face it, there are too many factors to call this a clear dismissal of Barry.

[Old Sweater]

Are you referring to Henry Aaron's saying that he wouldn't travel to see the game where the SF Giants play the Atlanta Braves?


Missed this, when did this happen. I myself don't blame Mr. Aaron one bit.

[Elvis]

Somehow I feel if it was Jr. Griffey instead of Bonds, Aaron would be there. But that's just a guess and we'll never know. :reporter:

BTW: Hammerin' Hank will be throwing out the first pitch @ Dodger Stadium on Sunday. :D And Frank Robinson too.

[CuriousBoston]

HOw is this a stand against Barry? It might very well be but where does Hank say he is doing this because of Barry?

Isn't it clear it's because of Barry Balco? I believe that Aaron is too classy to put it into words. I also believe he wants nothing to do with it, avoids talking to the media about it.

[CuriousBoston]

Somehow I feel if it was Jr. Griffey instead of Bonds, Aaron would be there. But that's just a guess and we'll never know.

Does Griffey have a history of roids, or otherwise cheating?

[Ubiquitous]

Isn't it clear it's because of Barry Balco?

Well no I don't think it is clear at all. That might very well be the case or it might simply that people are making it what they want it to be. Hank Aaron like all of us is a complicated person. I personally think that the view that Hank is keeping away because of steroids is not the real reason. It might be part of the reason but I don't think it is the main reason. Afterall it isn't like Hank is free from sin when it comes to records.

[Old Sweater]

Afterall it isn't like Hank is free from sin when it comes to records.

IMO, there isn't any. Just depends on what degree everyone considers a sin.

[digglahhh]

Isn't it clear it's because of Barry Balco? I believe that Aaron is too classy to put it into words. I also believe he wants nothing to do with it, avoids talking to the media about it.

There's nothing classy about being cryptically principled...potentially.

[ESPNFan]

Somehow I feel if it was Jr. Griffey instead of Bonds, Aaron would be there. But that's just a guess and we'll never know. :reporter:

BTW: Hammerin' Hank will be throwing out the first pitch @ Dodger Stadium on Sunday. :D And Frank Robinson too.

Yes I found it funny that Hank claims that "I'm 72 years old, and I'm not hopping on a plane and flying all the way to San Francisco for anybody." And then shortly there after he is in L.A. for Jackie Robinson.

I think Hank is just like the rest of us and looks at a players accomplishments and judges them according to Merit. Jackie Robinson career obviously merits his flying to the west coast for all the and Barry Bonds breaking the Home run record merits a West Palm Beach golf trip. :)

[Old Sweater]

There's nothing classy about being cryptically principled...potentially.

Depends on one's, cryptically principled interpretation.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_32dd24dacfdc8565ad9e52beb37b9f42.png~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

[Ubiquitous]

I would counter with how long did Hank know about Jackie Robinson day? Did Hank have to fly to to 4 different cities before Jackie Robinson day happened? Or was JR day a planned event that Hank could plan for? Again Barry Bonds breaking the record is not some planned scheduled event. Nobody knows when it is going to happen, Hank for possibly week if not more would basically have to live life on standby, and why would he want to do that? Yes this could all be a smoke screen and Hank hates Barry. Or it could simply be that Hank hates anyone breaking his record, or it could simply be that he doesn't want to have to jump around the country and hanging around like some sort of trophy/prize.

[ESPNFan]

I think the reall smoking gun is when he's asked if it happens in Atlanta playing the Braves where would he be and he says taking a trip to west palm beach go golfing.

[Ubiquitous]

But what would that prove? Does that prove that he does not like Bonds or does it prove that he doesn't like somebody breaking his record?

[digglahhh]

Depends on one's, cryptically principled interpretation.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~http://www.smiliesgenerator.com/gs/GS2/save/GS_32dd24dacfdc8565ad9e52beb37b9f42.png~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Because he is being crypitc, not secretive.

[Old Sweater]

Because he is being crypitc, not secretive.


"I'm sorry Barry feels that way, and I don't have any resentment toward him whatsoever, but I have no intention of trying to get in contact with him or doing anything with him in regard to his [chasing the record]. Nothing. Why should I?" said Aaron, who discovered only recently that the privately sensitive slugger for the San Francisco Giants wants to become pen pals or something. "It's really not a big concern of mine. I don't know why I should have to do anything. I might send him a telegram, and that would be the extent of it."

================================

I don't see nothing secretive or cryptic here except for one's interpretation of Hank's statement.

[Elvis]

Does Griffey have a history of roids, or otherwise cheating?

No, that's the point.

[digglahhh]

"I'm sorry Barry feels that way, and I don't have any resentment toward him whatsoever, but I have no intention of trying to get in contact with him or doing anything with him in regard to his [chasing the record]. Nothing. Why should I?" said Aaron, who discovered only recently that the privately sensitive slugger for the San Francisco Giants wants to become pen pals or something. "It's really not a big concern of mine. I don't know why I should have to do anything. I might send him a telegram, and that would be the extent of it."

Thanks for the quote, Sweater.

No, that is not cryptic. That's relatively straightforward. When I said he was being cryptic, I was referring to his statement that he wasn't going to get on a plane for anybody. People were interpreting that as Aaron taking a stand. I said that if that was his "stand," it was cryptic and not much of a "stand" at all.

In this quote he seems to just renounce the pomp and circumstance, like Ipod said, which is why I opined for Ipod-fever.com...

[west coast orange and black]

kok: I'm happy he has taken a stand against Barry

i do not recall reading that this is aaron's reason. hammer can do whatever he wants -- he's his own man.
but maybe he tired of getting asked questions about talk of his own use has something to do with it.

wags: If Bonds breaks Aaron's record will he attend A-Rod if A-Rod's breaks his record in about 2015?
undoubtedly. i'd bet my house on it.
bonds has a deep affinity of the history of the game and would be proud to be involved in passing the baton.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

"I'm hoping someday that some kid, black or white, will hit more home runs than myself. Whoever it is, I'd be pulling for him."

-Hank Aaron, way back when no one was nearing his record.

[TRfromBR]

I think Hank would show up for someone more respectful of the game. Maybe if Junior Griffey had kept on pace, for example. Even if he didn't feel like traveling, he'd have to show up for someone the public respected. With Bonds, it's simple to say no. Few will think less of Aaron for that, and many will love the silent protest. Why show up at the scene of the crime? There's a very good chance that Bonds' "record" will be invalidated by the MLB. It practically has been already by the public. Who really believes he did this without cheating?[/COLOR]

[SRO]

I'm happy he has taken a stand against Barry by announcing he will not be in attendance when Barry beats his record, the line is drawn.

Except that it's not what his point is. I know you wish it was, but unfortunately he's explained, several times in fact, that he's tired of the media circus and just doesn't want to be part of it anymore. If Hank Aaron is so classy and principled, don't you think he'd let his anti-Barry opinion be known, if it indeed existed?

[west coast orange and black]

bluezebra: I heartily commend [Aaron] for not giving credence to "Chemical" Barry if he breaks Hank's record.

TRfromBR: I think Hank would show up for someone more respectful of the game. Maybe if Junior Griffey had kept on pace, for example.
how do you conclude that bonds is not "respectful" of the game?
how do you know that junior did not use?

There's a very good chance that Bonds' "record" will be invalidated by the MLB.
on what is this "very good chance" based?
where is invalidation mentioned, and by whom?

[Captain Cold Nose]

If Aaron disliked Bonds so much, why did he do that commercial with him a few years back where he told him to retire? Maybe it was because of the money, but I'd like to think if he were so principled against him, he would have passed.
Going to an already scheduled event is one thing, JR day, golf trip or otherwise. Flying around based on the speculation something could happen is another.

[digglahhh]

Ironically, I think that protesting the pomp and circumstance and all around media whoring that is the coverage of the game and record today is more indicative of "class" than refusing to show up and shake Barry's hand would be.

[TRfromBR]

how do you conclude that bonds is not "respectful" of the game?

how do you know that junior did not use?

There's a very good chance that Bonds' "record" will be invalidated by the MLB.
on what is this "very good chance" based?
where is invalidation mentioned, and by whom?

Bonds' incessant lying and cheating, to gain undue and unlawful advantage over others is proof positive of his disrespect for the game, its fans, his competitors, and rightful record holders he has been ripping off since the '90's.

I'm aware of no evidence that Griffey used steroids, are you? If not, why bring up his name in that manner?

The powerful evidence against Bonds suggests that he has not only cheated for a decade, but also that he has perjured himself, unlawfully suppressed evidence, obstructed justice, defrauded the public, and served as an accomplice in the distribution of illegal drugs - all in violation of Federal law, as well as the laws of several states. This all suggests and leads me to conclude that there is a good chance that his records, established since 1998, will be invalidated. Unless he can find a jury of twelve people that actually like him. (Make sure your voter registration card is in.)

[Ubiquitous]

Well TR do you like Cobb? Do you like Ruth? Do you like Mays? Do you like Mantle? Heck do you like Aaron?

Disrespect for the game is a slippery conviction to tag on a player. Virtually none of the greats can wear the respect medal. Or I should say wear that medal honestly, though we do tend to pin it on them regardless.

Since when has MLB invalidated records? About the only record I've seen invalidated is shorten no-hitters. They changed to rules to state the game must go 9 innings or more for a no-hitter to occur, that is it in terms of invalidating records. If they invalidate Bonds records then they are going to have to invalidate virtually everybodies records including the previous record holders.

[TRfromBR]

Bonds' Home Run Records should be invalidated, not because of his disrespect for the game, but for his cheating. And, yes, I do think records should be invalidated when appropriate, whether it be for deliberate violation of rules, or for mistake.

I'm not certain about how many records, achievements and tallys have been invalidated, corrected or modified over the years. Good question. Perhaps there were some Batting Titles retroactively rewarded, like in 1910 involving Nap LaJoie - and maybe one involving Joe Jackson later. I'm not sure how that all turned out. None of them seemed too bothered by it, however, if the photo below is any indication.

In any case, if the league receives clear and convincing confirmation of Bonds' cheating, they'll really have no choice. They'll have to decertify his records. And I don't see that as a difficult procedural matter.

Considering the incredible level and length of Bonds' cheating, it's entirely reasonable to conclude that he disrespects the game, its fans, and his competitors. [/COLOR]

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: Bonds' incessant lying and cheating .... is proof positive of his disrespect for the game...
you and i measure "disrespect", when it comes to baseball, in different ways.
1,000+ players who love and respect the game used. substances were around before balco, you know.
being a student of the game and acknowledging those who played before carries much weight to me when describing those who respect the game.

The powerful evidence against Bonds suggests that he has not only cheated for a decade, but also that he has perjured himself .... This leads me to conclude that there is a good chance that his records, established since 1998, will be invalidated.
dude, this invalidation thing simply ain't gonna happen. it is logistically impossible.
as for your conclusion of perjury, perhaps you can let the feds in on your powerful evidence. they have been looking for some for a couple'a years, now.

I'm aware of no evidence that Griffey used steroids, are you?
i used junior's name because you implied that griffey has not used.
but it matters not whether i happen to know if junior used. what matters is that you can not flatly claim that griffey did not.
baseball's current substance abuse program kicked in because hundreds of players failed drug testing. what evidence, other than mlb's "5-7%" nonsense, do you have of any of those players? do you have even their names?

[Ubiquitous]

[COLOR="Blue"]yes, I do think records should be invalidated when appropriate, whether it be for deliberate violation of rules, or for mistake.

In any case, if the league receives clear and convincing confirmation of Bonds' cheating, they'll really have no choice. They'll have to decertify his records. And I don't see that as a difficult procedural matter.


Did the league "decertify" Ken Caminiti's MVP? How about Jose Canseco's MVP? Did the league take away Palmeiro's 3020 hits and 569 homers?

If you think records should be invalidated then you should be all for taking records away from players like Cobb, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Schmidt, Hornsby, Ford, Sutton, Perry, and a whole bunch of other people.

Like I said to the best of my knowledge no records have ever been "decertifed". In fact the league has a rule that if an error is discovered many years later they will not change the winner of the award.

[digglahhh]

Why are we so caught up in the records anyway?

Holding the record doesn't mandate people consider you the greatest power hitter of all time. Do people consider Aaron better than Ruth?

So, what's the problem? I realize I'm committing heresy in saying this, but it is a just a number (in this sense).

Does it matter if Bonds gets to keep the seat warm for a couple of years for A-Rod?

[west coast orange and black]

digglahhh: Holding the record doesn't mandate people consider you the greatest power hitter of all time.
righty-o.
q: rose became the best hitter ever because he slapped on his "hit king" cap?
a: no.

Does it matter if Bonds gets to keep the seat warm for a couple of years for A-Rod?
:laugh

[TRfromBR]

you and i measure "disrespect", when it comes to baseball, in different ways.


Yes, you are correct, we measure respect for the game in different ways. You believe Bonds' massive cheating for the last decade is respectful of the game, and I don't.

It is not "logistically impossible." In fact, it's not difficult at all. It can be done with one stroke of the pen. And the MLB will have no choice but to do it, if Bonds' cheating is formally established.

All the authorities involved already know Bonds has been unlawfully using and perjuring. They're not sure how and when to act on that knowledge.

I'm aware of no evidence that Griffey has used or perjured, so there's absolutely no comparison between him and Bonds, that I know of.

Bonds has been the primary offender for many years now, and possibly Clemens, too, though there is not nearly as much evidence estabishing the dates and quantities of his usage, as there is for BALCO Barry.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: You believe Bonds' massive cheating for the last decade is respectful of the game, and I don't.
uh, no.
what bonds and others did is not what i consider to be "respectful" of the game. it's just that i do not find it "disrespectful", either. most correctly, though, the notion of "respect" does not enter the discussion for me.


It is not "logistically impossible." In fact, it's not difficult at all. It can be done with one stroke of the pen.
hmmm... perhaps we are speaking of different things.
i am talking about the conceivability of erasing bonds' numbers, and zeroing out, of balancing out all numbers related.


All the authorities involved already know Bonds has been unlawfully using and perjuring. They're not sure how and when to act on that knowledge.
news to me. and i'm at ground level zero, practically.


I'm aware of no evidence that Griffey has used or perjured, so there's absolutely no comparison between him and Bonds, that I know of.
a dodge. can you stste that griffey has not used?


Bonds has been the primary offender for many years now
how are you using "primary"? just curious.

[TRfromBR]

Did the league "decertify" Ken Caminiti's MVP? How about Jose Canseco's MVP? Did the league take away Palmeiro's 3020 hits and 569 homers?

This is not about Bonds, the person. This is about Bonds, the biggest cheater in Baseball today. I'm all for decertifying Conceco and Caminiti's MVPs. I've brought that up on BBF previously, I believe. Palmeiro's situation is different, of course. There was no MVP or Home Run Record involved, and, to my knowledge, he has not acknowledged usage, like Conseco and Caminiti. Nor has Clemens. But, yes, punish them all according to the evidence available and the results of their offenses. As we all know, Bonds has the most evidence against him of all active ballplayers, and the results of his offenses have been as huge as his usage.

Bonds' cheating was not an "error" - it was a deliberate and unparalled series of continual offenses, lasting a decade, successfully designed to gain him Home Run Awards and other undue remuneration and accolades, in violation of League rules and multiple criminal statutes.

[Ubiquitous]

Okay so what about Rose? What about Mays? What about Cobb? What about Ford? What about Aaron?
We know that Rose used a corked bat and used amphetamines.
We know that Mays used amphetamines.
We know Aaron used amphetamines.

Was all of Cobbs 4000+ hits obtained legally or did he cheat to get some of them? If so should we count those?

Nothing Bonds did is unusual for a baseball player. He is simply the next generation of cheaters in baseball.

[TRfromBR]

I don't know of any evidence on Rose, Mays and Aaron, so I can't answer that. If you do, please gather that evidence and write the MLB.

I don't know if Cobb cheated to get any hits. If you do, please gather the dates and write the MLB. I do believe the record books were corrected for two or so of his hits, due to erroneous scorekeeping - about fifty year after the fact.

"Nothing Bonds did is unusual for a baseball player." If you believe that, than I'm afraid you and West Coast both are beyond the pale.

[digglahhh]

It is not "logistically impossible." In fact, it's not difficult at all. It can be done with one stroke of the pen.
hmmm... perhaps we are speaking of different things.
i am talking about the conceivability of erasing bonds' numbers, and zeroing out, of balancing out all numbers related.

This is something that a lot of people don't seem to understand, how difficult it would actually be to eliminate Barry's accomplishments.

You can add an asterisk with one stroke of the pen, but invalidating the records is probably something that give Sean nightmares, when you think of what would actually have to be done. You would have to actually erase history! How do you do that?

Shall we recalculate Greg Maddux's ERA for every time he surrendered a homer to Bonds? A walk? A single? How do we replace it, with the presumed outcome of a league average clean-up hitter adjusted for a home park of SF in 1999? I mean, "integrity of the game" is a huge blanket statement; certainly it subsumes the "integrity of Tom Glavine's ERA too...

[Ubiquitous]

I don't know of any evidence on Rose, Mays and Aaron, so I can't answer that. If you do, please gather that evidence and write the MLB.

They already know



"Nothing Bonds did is unusual for a baseball player." If you believe that, than I'm afraid you and West Coast both are beyond the pale

Barry Bonds cheated yes? Was he the first to do it? No. Was he the first person to deny cheating? No. Did he go to great lenghs to cheat? Yes. Was he the first to do it? No.

[digglahhh]

I don't know of any evidence on Rose, Mays and Aaron, so I can't answer that. If you do, please gather that evidence and write the MLB.


From I Had A hammer: The Hank Aaron Story by Hank Aaron with Lonnie Wheeler

"Actually the 1968 season wasn't the best time to present my case. It was the first time since my rookie year that I didn't drive in or scored 100 runs. I was so frustrated that at one point I tried using a greenie that one of my teamates gave me. "

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061099562?v=glance


Personally, I think it is a specious to compare Aaron's small experiment with greenies to what Bonds has presumably done. But in a letter of the law sense, and perhaps more importantly, from a sense of intent...

[TRfromBR]

It's totally unnecessary, digglahhh, to eliminate or recalculate all of his "accomplishments." All that needs to be done is invalidate his Awards, including his Home Run "Records."

Under this theory of "logistic impossibility" virtually no one would ever be punished for cheating. It's a red herring.

[Ubiquitous]

That is of course if you take Aaron at his word. The amazing thing about that era is that drug use was well ubiquitous yet almost everybody from that era says the same thing that practically every teenager says when caught. "I only tried it once, it didn't do anything, and I won't do it again". Yet Mr. Aaron had an incredibly great old age run, a run that was either better or almost better then his normal peak run.

[TRfromBR]

Personally, I think it is a specious to compare Aaron's small experiment with greenies to what Bonds has presumably done. But in a letter of the law sense, and perhaps more importantly, from a sense of intent...

Fine with me. Strip him of any homer to he got that day. And, you're absolutely, right, it is specious and completely different in scope and importance compared to what Bonds has done. Another red herring.

[Ubiquitous]

Under this theory of "logistic impossibility" virtually no one would ever be punished for cheating. It's a red herring.
[/COLOR]

Well virtually no one has ever been punished for cheating. A small handful of people have been banned for cheating to lose, a few suspended for on field cheating and that is about it.

Nrom Cash admitted to cheating and he never had his batting title taken away. Whitey Ford has numerous awards and a CYA yet they have never been taken away. Gaylord Perry has 2 CYA and they have not been taken away.

[Ubiquitous]

Fine with me. Strip him of any homer to he got that day. And, you're absolutely, right, it is specious and completely different in scope and importance compared to what Bonds has done. Another red herring.

So if Barry Bonds says he only used drugs once what should we do?

What about the days in which Bonds was cycled off the drugs, can we count those? What happens if he only used them in the offseason? Can we then count his records? Can we count his stats if he was facing another cheater? What about his records in 2001 can we count those? Since it wasn't even against baseball rules. Can we count the stats since testing since he has passed all but one test, a test by the way for amphetamine use in the off-season? So does that mean his stats are legit now?

[TRfromBR]

Well virtually no one has ever been punished for cheating. A small handful of people have been banned for cheating to lose, a few suspended for on field cheating and that is about it.

Nrom Cash admitted to cheating and he never had his batting title taken away. Whitey Ford has numerous awards and a CYA yet they have never been taken away. Gaylord Perry has 2 CYA and they have not been taken away.

I already answered this question. Take away anything proven to be obtained through violation of the rules of baseball. Cash, Ford, Perry, who cares? Go gather your evidence, Ubi, and write the MLB and Hall of Fame.

... Or, you write a letter to the MLB that no one can ever be punished for cheating, no matter how severe the offense or consequences. Barry would probably pay for your postage.

Sounds like more red herings to me.

[Ubiquitous]

Sounds like more red herings to me.

I'm beginning to think you are suffereing from a stroke and only capable of saying red herring. Over 150 years of history and you want sluff it off as "red herring". Okay fine that is your perogative but I've got 150 years of case law behind me and you have "red herring". So which one of us is more likely to be right? Personally I'm willing to put every dollar I have and every dollar I'll ever have that Barry Bonds records won't be "invalidated". There is simply no history of MLB doing so nor is there any history of MLB wanting to set that precedent. It is a road that MLb has shown quite clearly time and again that they don't want to go down. But yes by all means keep saying "red herring".

[John Shoemaker]

Last year over 60% of the players that tested positive for steroid use were pitchers. How can anyone's home run records be invalidated when they hit some of their homeruns off of pitchers using steroids?

[digglahhh]

Fine with me. Strip him of any homer to he got that day. And, you're absolutely, right, it is specious and completely different in scope and importance compared to what Bonds has done. Another red herring.

Specious yes, (assuming he was telling the truth) but the intent of dishonesty is the primary concern. That's where the "disrespect" is shown, if we are going to go down that road.

I don't consider the measure of cheating to be its effects. There are two aspects of cheating, the intent to deceive and the scope to which you attempt to deceive. Scuffing a ball and taking steroids are analogous enough to be compared, but they are different enough that you have to be careful in the way you compare them.

This dynamic invites a lot of agenda pushing and very little healthy debate. Most of the noise comes in the form of using an extreme at one end of the spectrum to make the opponent seem like a either somebody who is ignorant about baseball history or somebody who condones criminality.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with the anti-Barry crowd if I saw some threads opining for the banishment of Juan Rincon.

Most of these posts are like political attack ads, attacking the other group but making only sound-byte arguments about the real issues at hand.

[TRfromBR]

I'm beginning to think you are suffereing from a stroke and only capable of saying red herring.


You're missing the issue I'm arguing in favor of, Ubi. It's not whether Bonds' "records" will be invalidated that's the issue, it's whether Bonds' "records" should be invalidated if his unparalleled level of cheating is proven.

I say yes they should be, and you say no they shouldn't be. And, yes, I agree that unless someone with more integrity forces Selig to act honorably, evidence shows he won't. He'll just hide in his office - likely noshing on some herring - and just hope he can call it a tie, or something. After all, he was in on it, too.

P.S. I had an apropos attachment of Selig & Bonds for you, but my 'Manage Attachment' function is disabled. Fortunately, I know a mod who would protect Bonds' to the bitter end would never, ever censure someone for posting things that tends to further prove Bonds' guilt. So, I'll just wait for that attachment function to be re-enabled.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: I don't know of any evidence on Rose, Mays and Aaron, so I can't answer that.
then you haven't been jabbering around baseball men, have you?

If you do, please gather that evidence and write the MLB.
are you anxious to have the records of even more players erased?
just how big is your pencil?

trfrombr: Fortunately, I know a mod who would protect Bonds to the bitter end would never, ever censure someone for posting things that tends to further prove Bonds' guilt.
excellant news!
i hope that you do not hafta keep us waiting too long for this evidence.

[TRfromBR]

trfrombr: Fortunately, I know a mod who would protect Bonds to the bitter end would never, ever censure someone for posting things that tends to further prove Bonds' guilt.
excellant news!
i hope that you do not hafta keep us waiting too long for this evidence.


I'll keep my reply brief, since my posts the other day regarding Bonds obvious guilt were all deleted.

Are you still defending that phony BALCO Barry?

You guys might be right: With guys like you & Ubi out there perpetually running interference for Bonds' crimes, he may just get to keep all those bogus "records."

I'd send you an attachment worth a thousand words about Bonds' flagrant guilt, but Ubi doesn't like them being sent.

[Westlake]

You sure do spend a lot of time being Bonds' judge, jury, and executioner, TR. You spend more time persecuting him than WCOAB or Ubi spend defending him (for lack of a better word, since they aren't really defending him, just going against your prejudice against one player out of many who have used).

[Ubiquitous]

You are throwing around accusations but you have no proof, and for the record I haven't done a thing to you but feel free to accuse me. I guess that comes easily to you.

[TRfromBR]

You sure do spend a lot of time being Bonds' judge, jury, and executioner, TR.

I have never accused him over anybody else. He happens to have the most evidence against him, but I support censuring anyone with such powerful evidence against them. If you've been reading my posts, you already know that.

The reason I am thorough in my responses against Bonds is because people like you, Orange & Black, and Ubi, are all so persistent in your bogus defenses of his steroid use - which is a pathetic thing to defend. Kids reading your posts will conclude that such massive, and highly dangerous, abuse of chemical "enhancers" is not something to be deeply concerned about. I've got news for you, it is. And you guys are doing a great disservice to the game and any kids reading your posts in support of Bonds cheating.

[TRfromBR]

You are throwing around accusations but you have no proof, and for the record I haven't done a thing to you but feel free to accuse me. I guess that comes easily to you.

I've asked quite a bit for you to look into this sudden and unusual problem, but you still haven't responded that you'll do that. This is not the first time my Bonds' posts have been inhibited. Could you look into that for me. You are the only mod I've ever known to delete and censor my posts.

Still, despite the circumstances, I am not accusing you, I am simply asking you, once again, to enable my Manage Attachment function.

[Westlake]

[COLOR="Blue"]The reason I am thorough in my responses against Bonds is because people like you, Orange & Black, and Ubi, are all so persistent in your bogus defenses of his steroid use - which is a pathetic thing to defend.

You're making an assumption that is just plain stupid. Where have I once defended Barry's steroid use? Where? I'm sure he has used, but just because I don't want everything he has done thrown out of the record books (Especially because he wasn't on steroids his entire career, so it would be stupid to do that) doesnt mean I'm defending anyone. Those are my views, and it's not because Barry is my buddy or anything like that, IM NOT DEFENDING HIM --- Thats just my opinion on the subject. I dont care if you dont like it, but you saying that I am doing a disservice to baseball by saying what I am is just ignorant, same as your assumption that I support Bonds cheating... thats probably the stupidest of your assumptions to date.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: i'll keep my reply brief, since my posts the other day regarding Bonds obvious guilt were all deleted.
pm me, man.
i will read every word.

Are you still defending that phony BALCO Barry?
am not defending bonds. simply pointing out inaccuracies, untruths, rumors-as-facts, etc.
recently the shoe-size and cap-size thing, f'rinstance. you hang onto those yet you have no idea of the source. this is a curious thing to me.

[Ubiquitous]

I do find it funny how I am being accused of defending Barry when I don't think I have once said in this thread that Barry wasn't a cheater. About the only way I can be defending Barry is because I don't wish to lynch him which appears if you are not for then you are some sort of evil being who wishes to do incredible harm to the children and to the game.

[TRfromBR]

am not defending bonds. simply pointing out inaccuracies, untruths, rumors-as-facts, etc. recently the shoe-size and cap-size thing, f'rinstance. you hang onto those yet you have no idea of the source. this is a curious thing to me.

I never said a word about Bonds' shoe-size or cap-size. You have confused me with someone else. Everything I have claimed about Bonds cheating is well-documented.

[west coast orange and black]

tr: The reason I am thorough in my responses against Bonds...
(my underlining)

another chuckle.
anywaze, man, you seem to have no idea how i feel about substance use in baseball and abuse overall. somewhere along the line you decided all on your own that my questioning of fingerpointing posts that lack merit means that i am defending bonds. this is simply not the case.

I never said a word about Bonds' shoe-size or cap-size.
i stand corrected. it was monarch.
many of you guys kinda sound alike, though.

[TRfromBR]

I do find it funny how I am being accused of defending Barry when I don't think I have once said in this thread that Barry wasn't a cheater.

Exactly my point, Ubi. You defend him even though you know he's a cheater. And, worse, you have defended him regardless of the outcome of all investigations and findings. I did not say you are evil or you wish harm on children and the game, what I am saying is your blanket defense of Bonds' massive abuse of steroids threatens to have such severely negative impacts on kids and the game.

When a man with your knowledge and love of the game condones massive drug abuse by a role model like Bonds, how do you think a kid would interpret that. It's wrong any way you look at it, but to have a premier baseball site expert and moderator defending it, as you do, that's perilous.

[TRfromBR]

somewhere along the line you decided all on your own that my questioning of fingerpointing posts that lack merit means that i am defending bonds. this is simply not the case.


Show me one post you've ever made admitting or condemning Bonds' drug usage. All I've ever seen is dozens of your nonsensical ones denying and condoning it.

Any word on your investigation into why my Manage Attachment function became disabled during the course of these discussions, and when it will be fixed?

[Westlake]

Like with the shoe-size charge, you are wrong.

Show me one post you've ever made admitting or condemning Bonds' drug usage. All I've ever seen is dozens of your nonsensical ones denying and condoning it.

Any word on your investigation into why my Manage Attachment function became disabled during the course of these discussions, and when it will be fixed?



trfrombr: If you don't acknowledge by this point in time that Bonds has been abusing PED's, there's nothing I can do to help you learn that.

i do not see where i need your help for anything, man.
you claim that bonds "has been" using. the implication of your statement is that bonds is still using.
did bonds use? of course. rattle off the names of guys who didn't.

but with your images you claim (unsuccessfully) that bonds used from his rookie season. so, it is actually you who refuses to acknowledge.

There ya go.

[Ubiquitous]

[COLOR="Blue"]
Exactly my point, Ubi. You defend him even though you know he's a cheater. And, worse, you have defended him regardless of the outcome of all investigations and findings.

What I have defended is the due process. What I have defended is the truth. I'm not willing to trample on the due process and truth simply because. Secondly this is not a new conversation and I will say what I have always said that if you convict based on a series of lies then in the end you won't get what you want. Instead you will have a martyr on your hands and it will be you who is being perceived as in the wrong.

In terms of roles models I think any parent that would allow their kids to have some stranger that you know nothing about as their role model is perilous. I also think that a kid choosing some stranger because they can hit a ball really far to be their role model is perilous. When I was growing up strangers were not my role models.

Nor do I see why me being a mod means I should be for lynching Bonds. Stringing anybody just because doesn't strike me as something noble or right.

[TRfromBR]

You are not "defending the truth" - you are defending Bonds' lies.

Whether you accept it or not (it's more like you don't care), kids are being influenced by your condonation of Bonds's massive drug abuse and cheating. You are the one who not long ago deleted a Jessica Alba photo, but see nothing wrong about defending unlawful drug use and cheating. Please don't pretend your some defender of constitutional liberties. Your censorship of Ms Alba proved that wrong, as have all the false allegations of rascism you have made and implied on this site. Including, now, your iintentionally inflammatory implication that I am "lynching" Bonds.

I've seen repeatedly that you never admit when you're wrong, so I will attempt to leave it at that, especially since you've notified me you will not do anything to bring my Manage Attachment function back to spec.

Adios. [/COLOR]

[Ubiquitous]

TR I don't think you truly understand your consitutional liberties. Freedom of speech is a freedom the government grants you in regards to themselves. That freedom does not extend into areas like this or in your employement. Posting a picture of Jessica Alba naked coverd by a sheet is not allowed on this forum. Saying you like or do not like Barry Bonds is allowed on this forum. IT is as simple as that.

As for admitting when I am wrong I am perfectly capable of doing that. When I am wrong I own up to it. Just because you think I am wrong doesn't make it so, nor does that mean I can't admit I am wrong. It simply means we have a disagreement, one that for whatever reason you tend to take personally and again for whatever reasons tend to carry a grudge.

AS for the rest I'm not going to debate it. I'm not going to have some "think of the children" debate over Barry Bonds.

[Ubiquitous]

I've seen repeatedly that you never admit when you're wrong, so I will attempt to leave it at that, especially since you've notified me you will not do anything to bring my Manage Attachment function back to spec.

Adios. [/COLOR]

Didn't see this part. Never said that. I said I have no idea what happened to your account and that I personally cannot fix it. Which, guess what I cannot. The administrators are the only ones who can fix that, that is not me, at this time I have no idea when they are going to fix it. This is friday night I have no idea where the admins are, we are not all roomies living in the same house. We are all scattered around the country with many different professions.

[west coast orange and black]

trfrombr: Like with the shoe-size charge, you are wrong.
i admitted that i got you guys mixed up. whaddaya want?

Show me one post you've ever made admitting or condemning Bonds' drug usage.
thread "600 or 756" -- post #110:
"did bonds use? of course. rattle off the names of guys who didn't."

All I've ever seen is dozens of your nonsensical ones denying and condoning it.
denying? hmm... see above.
condoning? you are way outta line.

Any word on your investigation into why my Manage Attachment function became disabled during the course of these discussions, and when it will be fixed?
what is this about an investigation by me? i know nothing of it.
please direct your technical difficulties to the webmaster, sean holtz, who is also the owner of baseball-fever.

[TRfromBR]

TR I don't think you truly understand your consitutional liberties. Freedom of speech is a freedom the government grants you in regards to themselves. That freedom does not extend into areas like this or in your employement. Posting a picture of Jessica Alba naked coverd by a sheet is not allowed on this forum. Saying you like or do not like Barry Bonds is allowed on this forum. IT is as simple as that.

I have been a very successful representative of many dozens of litigants in the field of constitutional law, and, most particularly, in the field of First Amendment law since the mid-Eighties. So, I certainly don't need you giving me your hack interpretations of free speech.

Like I said I have no objection to the Jessica Alba deletion, which was not pornographic or prohibitively explicit as you falsely imply. My objection is that you promote and cheer on severely unlawful and dangerously drug use and cheating, while simultaneously censuring a fully lawful and harmless photo of Jessica Alba. Tells me even more about you.

Point me to one post where you have admitted you were wrong. I saw how absurd your intransigent contention was that fans who object to cocked hats are racists. And I've seen how you support the racism of Bonds. Please don't refer me to any spelling and grammar mistakes. Point me to something meaningful.

[Ubiquitous]

Want to see where I was wrong? Look no further then this thread. I was wrong to get into a conversation with you. A mistake I will now quickly correct. Good night and enjoy your time on Fever for I am done with this conversation with you on this thread.

[TRfromBR]

I see you could not point to any of your many thousands of posts, where you've admitted your wrong.

[TRfromBR]

"did bonds use? of course. rattle off the names of guys who didn't."

condoning? you are way outta line.




Good, you have now unambiguously admitted that Bonds has cheated. That's progress.

Regarding your request that I name everyboby who hasn't used steroids: I think you got everything upside down and backwards. The proof of steroid abuse I've seen is limited to only a few ballplayers. Why do you constantly and recklessly accuse so many others, without any proof or specificity whatsoever? This discussion is about the well-evidenced case against Bonds. As I pointed out repeatedly, its irrelevant to me if the offender is Bonds, or Mother Theresa, Any alleged offender should be treated pari passu.

Yes, in fact, you have repeatedly condoned Bonds' cheating through the abuse of unlawful PED's. You've overlooked it, forgived it, and excused it. That's what condoning means, and you've done all three repeatedly, in defense of your home run hero, BALCO Barry.

Good luck to you and Ubi supporting and defending Barry, you'll need it.

Sayonara

[west coast orange and black]

That's progress.
only one who is new to the party could state this.

Why do you constantly and recklessly accuse so many others, without any proof or specificity whatsoever?
who are these "so many others"? what are their names?
i have either spoken in general terms; referred to the "5-7%"; reminded that there are tons of guys who are known to have used drugs before there were administered drug tests; written of my conversations with players (6 of 'em hall of fame players) who have told insider stuff to me.
i believe that i have done so in a responsible manner; i have not named names. you seem to be confusing all of the above with my asking the simple question: "how do you know that so-and-so did not use?"

Any alleged offender should be treated pari passu.
agreed. but this has not occurred. especially not on this board.

You've overlooked it, forgived it, and excused it.
you have me confused with someone else, much the same way that i confused you with someone the other day.

Sayonara
:crossfingers:

[digglahhh]

The reason I am thorough in my responses against Bonds is because people like you, Orange & Black, and Ubi, are all so persistent in your bogus defenses of his steroid use - which is a pathetic thing to defend. Kids reading your posts will conclude that such massive, and highly dangerous, abuse of chemical "enhancers" is not something to be deeply concerned about. I've got news for you, it is. And you guys are doing a great disservice to the game and any kids reading your posts in support of Bonds cheating.

The kids?...

After all your talk about red herrings?... C'mon, TR. That's priceless.

So, how about those drug-free Beatles? Surely, you wouldn't glorify them or anything.

Oops.

[bigtime39]

If it was Cal Ripken about to break Aaron's record, even if there was some evidence that he had 'roided up in the 90s, people would be a lot less wound up than they are about Barry Bonds.
Why? Not because any of us are holding the smoking gun linking Bonds to steroid or HGH use, but because so many of us have direct or indirect evidence of Barry Bonds acting like a complete d*****bag.
I think MLB should send the two knuckleheads who ran onto the field and circled the bases with Aaron to Bonds' record breaker. Let one be the MC, the other present the award, and then let the three of 'em circle the bases together...
:blush:

[TRfromBR]

The kids?...

So, how about those drug-free Beatles? Surely, you wouldn't glorify them or anything.



You're absolutely right, diggs. Those lily-livered Liverpudlians should be roundly condemned for their foolish contributions to the drug culture. But their records would be so much more difficult to disqualify than Bonds', don't you think? And how about that Edgar Allen Poe? What should we do about that no-good, troublemakin' literary-type - always sippin' on the nepenthe. They should beat him to a pulp outside one of those wharfside, blood-alley Baltimore bars. That'll teach him a lesson not to cheat his fans.

[Mattingly]

When a man with your knowledge and love of the game condones massive drug abuse by a role model like Bonds, how do you think a kid would interpret that. It's wrong any way you look at it, but to have a premier baseball site expert and moderator defending it, as you do, that's perilous.
Trust me on this, I've had many very strongly-opinionated debates wtih wcoab (who's posted in this thread) about Bonds. So many, I've lost count and sometimes the lines are just repeated.

I don't think that one being knowledgeable about baseball or being a Mod here should affect their defense or remarks against Bonds. So long as said opinions are well-informed, I believe we're all entitled to our opinions. Isn't that what makes for great debate?

[Robin Yount]

I think Bonds is an incredibly special ballplayer no matter what he did or did not take. If it was so easy with enhancers to kick the kind of butt he has, then why doesnt McGwire have 800 HRs etc. Hammerin Hank is a bitter old geezer who doesnt realize that records were made to be broken. Aaron cant hold Bonds' jock.

[digglahhh]

Hammerin Hank is a bitter old geezer who doesnt realize that records were made to be broken. Aaron cant hold Bonds' jock.

This is pretty speculative.

The second part is just ridiculous. Taking Bonds at face value, Aaron can't hold Barry's jock like Tim Duncan can't hold Karl Malone's.

Even if we assume the underlying assumption as true, being, say the third best all time player as compared to the 9th best all time player is utterly meaningless in terms of how great these two men were.

What's the difference between them in terms of their all-time standing, one ten thousandth of a standard deviation - if that's your definition of not being able to hold one's jock, then so be it.

[TRfromBR]

Aaron cant hold Bonds' jock.

Only because Hank wouldn't let it happen.

[TRfromBR]

If it was so easy with enhancers to kick the kind of butt he has, then why doesnt McGwire have 800 HRs etc.

McGwire was always the superior power hitter. If he had kept playing, imbibing on the massive level PED abuse that Bonds' has, then he most likely would have had 800 HR's.

[Skin & Bones]

Mcgwire was the never the superior powerhitter.

If Canseco is to be believed, Mcgwire started using steroids after his rookie season, and it wasn't until 1995 where Mcgwire was actually a "better" power hitter than Clean Barry.

Then once Barry jumped on the sauce, well, he blew Mcgwire out of the water.

[TRfromBR]

You must be confusing Mark McGwire with the McGuire Sisters.

Bonds could never hit with the power of Mark McGwire. Indeed, that's one of the motivating factors of Bonds' PED mega-abuse - so that he could start hitting with the awesome power McGwire demonstrated from a very early age, even before his own steroid abuse. With as many home runs as Bonds has now hit over the right field fence, he is still not a power hitter in the league of guys like Ruth, Foxx, Gibson, Mantle ... or Howard, Jackson or McGwire, inter alia.

As evidence, look at the relative weakness of Bonds' hitting, as measured by length. Before he started overdosing, he rarely, if ever, hit a ball 450'. Ruth, for example, hit those regularly from day one - even before hot dogs were all 'roided up. Bonds only did so after his becoming such a prominent PEDophile.

[west coast orange and black]

iPod: Just ignore all of WCOB's posts on this thread. Problem solved.

what problem is that?

TRfromBR: Bonds could never hit with the power of Mark McGwire .... As evidence, look at the relative weakness of Bonds' hitting, as measured by length. Before he started overdosing, he rarely, if ever, hit a ball 450'.
lotsa power hitters would take up the argument against you on this, that they gotta consistently hit the ball 450' to be considered a power hitter.

Bonds only did so after his becoming such a prominent PEDophile.
not cute. distasteful, really.

[Ubiquitous]

Bonds is approaching the record a lot faster than where I thought he would be at this time. It will be interesting too see just how fans react to him breaking the record if he does it on the road.

Who will be the Al Downing for Bonds? :think:


I've bought tickets to all three home games when he comes to town next month. First game behind home plate, the next two in the right field bleachers hoping to be the guy who catches one of the important homers.

[TRfromBR]

TRfromBR: Bonds could never hit with the power of Mark McGwire .... As evidence, look at the relative weakness of Bonds' hitting, as measured by length. Before he started overdosing, he rarely, if ever, hit a ball 450'.
lotsa power hitters would take up the argument against you on this, that they gotta consistently hit the ball 450' to be considered a power hitter.

Bonds only did so after his becoming such a prominent PEDophile.
not cute. distasteful, really.

I did not say all power hitters have to consistently hit 450' to be considered as such. What I said is that McGwire was a superior power hitter to Bonds, as evidenced by significantly more powerful homers he hit. Before it's all over, all you Bonds supporters will be referencing the careers of Mel Ott, Brady Anderson, and maybe even Wee Willie Keeler as proof as of how awesomely powerful Mr. Bonds' can hit.

And you're absolutely right, Bonds' PEDophilia is indeed really distasteful. As is any excusing and defending of it.

[TRfromBR]

I've bought tickets to all three home games when he comes to town next month. First game behind home plate, the next two in the right field bleachers hoping to be the guy who catches one of the important homers.

Still not supporting him, I see.

[west coast orange and black]

TRfromBR: What I said is that McGwire was a superior power hitter to Bonds, as evidenced by significantly more powerful homers he hit.
oh, ok. my bad.
i do happen to disagree with you on this, though.

everywhereman: First game behind home plate...
don't know how often you have seen bonds up close, man.
but watch for how quickly bonds recognizes the pitch. the ball seems to still be in the pitcher's hand when he does. you can tell by how quickly his body relaxes.

[iPod]

iPod: Just ignore all of WCOB's posts on this thread. Problem solved.

what problem is that?

I was making a (pretty lame) joke. TR says you shouldn't defend Bonds because it would corrupt the children, ignoring the fact that no kids even read this board except Chris the Younger, and he's 15.

"Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it." - E.B. White

[Skin & Bones]

With as many home runs as Bonds has now hit over the right field fence, he is still not a power hitter in the league of guys like Ruth, Foxx, Gibson, Mantle ... or Howard, Jackson or McGwire, inter alia.


Gibson? We don't even know what his actual stats are - And against Major League competition, I doubt it's close to 900 homeruns, or whatever he's said to have hit.

And your ignoring the fact that Mcgwire is alleged to have started using steroids after his rookie season - So please tell me, before his alleged steroid use, was he hitting moonshots and breaking homerun records?

No, and neither was Bonds - But when Bonds hopped on the sauce, like Mcgwire was allegedly on, he blew Mcgwire out of the water.

Evidence? Check out his 2001 season, the greatest display of power of all-time - Certainly superior to mcgwire's 98.

[John Shoemaker]

What corrupts children is having them learn that they or anyone else can be found guilty without any proof.

[TRfromBR]

Gibson? We don't even know what his actual stats are - And against Major League competition, I doubt it's close to 900 homeruns, or whatever he's said to have hit.

I believe you are mistaking Bonds, too, for someone else. Bonds is not known for all time long distance power. In fact, until he unlawfully pumped himself up, he had no shots over 450'. Some high schoolers have hit that distance.

With respect to Gibson, I'd say the evidence is overwhelming that he could hit the ball a long distance - probably a hundred foot further than Bonds ever did legitimately. And you can argue all day against McGwire, but the fact is he was more powerful than Bonds, on and off steroids. As Bonds would say, "Call God. Ask him."

[Skin & Bones]

You are right, Mcgwire did hit more "moonshots" than Bonds. Of course, when Bonds hopped on the sauce, he hit homeruns at a more frequent pace than Mcgwire - While playing in a brutal pitchers park.

And as to Gibson? What evidence? I don't know much about him, so if you could give me some info on Josh, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[TRfromBR]

What corrupts children is having them learn that they or anyone else can be found guilty without any proof.

Oh yeah, that's been a major epidemic. We'd better appoint a Guilty-Without-Proof Czar quick. Saving Bonds should be our first priority. He's so misunderstood and mistreated. If only Baseball and the public would give him a chance to explain how innocent he is of these malicious and totally unfounded charges. If only William Fallon was still around to defend him. Next thing you know they'll be waterboarding him in Guantanamo.

[TRfromBR]

And as to Gibson? What evidence? I don't know much about him, so if you could give me some info on Josh, I'd greatly appreciate it.



Like with all Negro League stats, there are significant shortages of verifiable data on the total number of homers Gibson hit. Even so, I believe it is beyond any reasonable question that he could hit the ball a country mile. I see no reason to doubt the universal regard his contemporaries all shared for his hitting power. I never saw him, but, from what I can tell, everyone that did was mightily impressed by his sheer power. He was the Babe Ruth of his League. Is there anyone who still disputes his power? Jim Crow should not be permitted to obscure his undeniable hitting prowess in this day and age.

[digglahhh]

FWIW, I'd like to state the reasons why I have adopted the stance on Bonds that I have.

I don't like Bonds as a person, per se, though he grates on me less than he does others. I believe he knowlingly took PEDS. I also believe he is one of the absolute best to ever put on a pair of spikes.

There is an overzealous tar and feather crowd, eager to denounce all that he has accomplished because he has the temerity to compare himself to Ruth and because he continues to acknowledge the importance of race in America. There is a crowd that hides behind the disingenuous claim made on the basis of Barry Bonds, morality and our children - who does not speak up against many things far more immoral and detrimental. Basically, the fraudulent self-righteousness of the anti-Bondsians irks me more than Bonds himself.

I've been told by too many people that I have a William Kuntsler streak in me to dismiss that as part of the reason I take the stance that I do, and I have some pretty radical views in general. But, this is a common phenomenon with me, those eager to judge others (and not themselves) becoming more offensive to me than the original offending party.

[cardsfanatic]

You are right, Mcgwire did hit more "moonshots" than Bonds. Of course, when Bonds hopped on the sauce, he hit homeruns at a more frequent pace than Mcgwire - While playing in a brutal pitchers park.

And as to Gibson? What evidence? I don't know much about him, so if you could give me some info on Josh, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Let me just get this out of the way before I start my defense of McGwire here. Bonds is literally twice as good as Big Mac as an all-around player. McGwire is a HOF caliber player if you ask me... but Bonds is the upper tier HOF'er with the "good company" of Mays, Musial, Teddy and Babe.

With that said, I just have to say that whoever said McGwire was a better power hitter than Bonds _over their career_ was 100% correct. McGwire is the greatest HR hitter that ever lived (in regards to ability and quality -- obviously not quantity and longevity), having retired with a HR:AB ratio nearly two full AB's better than Babe Ruth and well above the pack. Mac was an average contact hitter -- people love to trash his average but it was just that, "average" (.263 vs league average of .262, I'll take that _all_ day long with his other numbers being astronomical) -- he got on base exceptionally well, he was an average defender and he was the creme de le creme of Homerun Hitters.

Bonds is no doubt the better _player_. McGwire is also, no doubt, the better _homerun hitter_ of the two.

[Skin & Bones]

Let me just get this out of the way before I start my defense of McGwire here. Bonds is literally twice as good as Big Mac as an all-around player. McGwire is a HOF caliber player if you ask me... but Bonds is the upper tier HOF'er with the "good company" of Mays, Musial, Teddy and Babe.

With that said, I just have to say that whoever said McGwire was a better power hitter than Bonds _over their career_ was 100% correct. McGwire is the greatest HR hitter that ever lived (in regards to ability and quality -- obviously not quantity and longevity), having retired with a HR:AB ratio nearly two full AB's better than Babe Ruth and well above the pack. Mac was an average contact hitter -- people love to trash his average but it was just that, "average" (.263 vs league average of .262, I'll take that _all_ day long with his other numbers being astronomical) -- he got on base exceptionally well, he was an average defender and he was the creme de le creme of Homerun Hitters.

Bonds is no doubt the better _player_. McGwire is also, no doubt, the better _homerun hitter_ of the two.

I don't dispute that Mcgwire's probably the best power hitter ever ( ignoring issues of PED'S), just that Mcgwire always had the superior power. I don't believe that's true. Prior to 1995, Bonds actually has a case power-wise ahead of Mac - Then from 1995-1999, there's no Doubt Mac was the superior power hitter.

I also believe Mac belongs in the HOF, and is certainly one of the most productive offensive players ever.

[Westlake]

I don't dispute that Mcgwire's probably the best power hitter ever ( ignoring issues of PED'S), just that Mcgwire always had the superior power. I don't believe that's true. Prior to 1995, Bonds actually has a case power-wise ahead of Mac - Then from 1995-1999, there's no Doubt Mac was the superior power hitter.

I also believe Mac belongs in the HOF, and is certainly one of the most productive offensive players ever.

Even with PEDs, I think Ruth is better. McGwire might be better at hitter home runs, but that's about it.

[Skin & Bones]

Even with PEDs, I think Ruth is better. McGwire might be better at hitter home runs, but that's about it.

Well, I should of rephrased it, I was talking solely homeruns.

[TRfromBR]

FWIW, I'd like to state the reasons why I have adopted the stance on Bonds that I have.

I don't like Bonds as a person, per se, though he grates on me less than he does others. I believe he knowlingly took PEDS. I also believe he is one of the absolute best to ever put on a pair of spikes.

There is an overzealous tar and feather crowd, eager to denounce all that he has accomplished because he has the temerity to compare himself to Ruth and because he continues to acknowledge the importance of race in America. There is a crowd that hides behind the disingenuous claim made on the basis of Barry Bonds, morality and our children - who does not speak up against many things far more immoral and detrimental. Basically, the fraudulent self-righteousness of the anti-Bondsians irks me more than Bonds himself.

I've been told by too many people that I have a William Kuntsler streak in me to dismiss that as part of the reason I take the stance that I do, and I have some pretty radical views in general. But, this is a common phenomenon with me, those eager to judge others (and not themselves) becoming more offensive to me than the original offending party.

What a joke, digglahhh. Get real. Bonds is one of the most pathetic rascists of his generation. And, the reason people so strenuously object to him is because of his flagrant lying and cheating. Don't attack the messenger with your phony counterculture nonsense. That kind of bogus victimhood crap only serves to hurt race relations. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's the effect.

P.S. I hope you realize that any comparison to Kuntsler is not a compliment. He, like Bonds, was another overrated fraud.

[digglahhh]

That kind of bogus victimhood crap only serves to hurt race relations. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's the effect.

I don't know what "bogus victimhood crap" you're referring to. These are my personal feelings and I'm trying to explain how they've formed as best I can understand them and communicate them. I'm not making a pitch to adopt my sociological, philosophical, economic or political view of the world, baseball, or counterculture (not here, at least...;) ).

I think those who bash Bonds relentlessly and don't know or care about who people like Matt Lawton, Juan Rincon, Alex Sanchez and Guilermo Mota, are bigger self-serving hypocrites than Barry Bonds is - it is that simple.

I don't have to recognize Bonds as the all time greatest homerun hitter. I don't even particularly care about the record at all. It is absolutely irrelevant to my love for the game. And if Barry continuing to sock big flies gets a bunch of self-righteous, selectively moral, historical revisionists' panties into a bunch, then I hope he hits 1,000!

[TRfromBR]

With that said, I just have to say that whoever said McGwire was a better power hitter than Bonds _over their career_ was 100% correct. McGwire is the greatest HR hitter that ever lived (in regards to ability and quality -- obviously not quantity and longevity), having retired with a HR:AB ratio nearly two full AB's better than Babe Ruth and well above the pack. Mac was an average contact hitter -- people love to trash his average but it was just that, "average" (.263 vs league average of .262, I'll take that _all_ day long with his other numbers being astronomical) -- he got on base exceptionally well, he was an average defender and he was the creme de le creme of Homerun Hitters.

Bonds is no doubt the better _player_. McGwire is also, no doubt, the better _homerun hitter_ of the two.

Well now, I certainly agree that McGwire was vastly superior in power to Bonds. But, declaring Big Mac a greater home run hitter than Babe Ruth just won't fly. Ruth was more powerful and far more dominant that McGwire, in every way. All Mac can rightfully claim is that he hit more out in left.

Plus, we can't forget that Mac, too, was a cheater. It doesn't appear that he imbibed quite as much as Bonds, or with as much percentage impact - but, because he cravenly "won't talk about the past" - in the face of such significant evidence against him - his batting records should be nullified, right along with Bonds & all the other cowardly cheats.

[Skin & Bones]

It doesn't appear that he imbibed quite as much as Bonds, or with as much percentage impact

How doesn't it appear that he took as much as Bonds?

Because his numbers weren't as good? Isn't talent the factor here?

I once read an nytimes article where they had posted Mcgwire's alleged steroid cocktail - and It looked exactly the same as Bonds, Giambi's etc.

[iPod]

Anymore quips, errors, and failed attempts at humor, like those, and I might have to call the People's Republic of Berkeley ASPCA on you. If they can't find you at [whatever's left of] People's Park, or one of the local hookah halls, I'll suggest they look for you strokin' through McCovey's Cove in a tie-dye kayak, waiting for the Left Coast's biggest moment [since Milli Vanilli won the Grammy.]

Failed attempts at humor, huh? Calling everyone in the Bay Area a communist stoner hippie is a great way of proving how unbiased you are, by the way.

[TRfromBR]

[QUOTE=digglahhh;886795]I don't know what "bogus victimhood crap" you're referring to.

"Bogus Victimhood Crap" refers to your bogus claims that Bonds is the victim, when in fact he's the perp. You're starting to sound like William Kuntsler begging the court for mercy because his mother-killing client is an orphan.

I think those who bash Bonds relentlessly and don't know or care about who people like Matt Lawton, Juan Rincon, Alex Sanchez and Guilermo Mota, are bigger self-serving hypocrites than Barry Bonds is - it is that simple.

You're right, that is very simple. At the Nuremburg trials, do you think they should have prosecuted the low level Nazi scumbags with the same fervor and visibility as Hitler's main sidekicks. Of course not.

I don't have to recognize Bonds as the all time greatest homerun hitter. I don't even particularly care about the record at all. It is absolutely irrelevant to my love for the game. And if Barry continuing to sock big flies gets a bunch of self-righteous, selectively moral, historical revisionists' panties into a bunch, then I hope he hits 1,000!

Well, if the strike zone got any smaller, the ball any juicer, the fences any shorter, the pitching any weaker, his armor any larger, and his PEDophilia any more pronounced, maybe he would've hit a 1000. As of now, though, he still hasn't batted .400

P.S. How much can you love the game, as you profess, if you don't care at all that's its most prominent player is a flagrant cheat? Is this something you learned from reading one of William Kuntsler's losing briefs - of which he had many?

[TRfromBR]

How doesn't it appear that he took as much as Bonds?

Because his numbers weren't as good? Isn't talent the factor here?

I once read an nytimes article where they had posted Mcgwire's alleged steroid cocktail - and It looked exactly the same as Bonds, Giambi's etc.

Maybe so, I have no allegiance to any of these frauds. I'm just not aware of all the evidence. Hanging out with Conseco in Oakland, he just may have had such cocktails. I thought BALCO's supply to Bonds was more substantial and advanced, but maybe not. Let Mac swing with the rest of them.

[TRfromBR]

Failed attempts at humor, huh? Calling everyone in the Bay Area a communist stoner hippie is a great way of proving how unbiased you are, by the way.

I was just joking with you on the Berkerley/Left Coast stuff. I used to stay quite a bit up that way, and I think it's a beautiful area, with a highly intelligent populace. No offense intended. I was just having fun with the stereotypes. What did Roger Angell's Step Father, E.B White, say?

[cardsfanatic]

Well now, I certainly agree that McGwire was vastly superior in power to Bonds. But, declaring Big Mac a greater home run hitter than Babe Ruth just won't fly.


Your mileage obviously varies. I'm an admitted Big Mac fan as he's my favorite player of all-time. So, there's obviously some room for bias there. But I'm sure one thing people will say about me around here is that I try to be brutally honest about _everything_ and very rarely do I homer out. I'm just looking at it from a realist perspective. Ruth and Bonds were and are vastly superior players to McGwire. McGwire, imo, is a HOF talent but he's one of the "average" HOF guys. The kind of player that in 20 years, only true baseball fans and McGwire fans will know or care that he's in there -- if he ever gets in there, that is.

But when you sit down at look at his numbers there's no doubt in my mind he's the best HR hitter ever. Yet again, your mileage may vary. But in a mere 6,000 AB's he did what took most people 10,000+ AB and that's hit nearly 600 HR. His career was cut short by injury and he rarely had a healthy season and yet he was still able to send a ball out of the park every 10 at-bats which is a pace most great homerun hitters only attain a few times in their career. Big Mac averaged that for an entire career.

And I find it funny that someone who would boast about the length of McGwire's hr's as a means to prop him over Bonds would try to act like McGwire's homeruns were "weak and all to left field" in the same thread. Big Mac is the same guy that hit a ball out of Tiger Stadium and hit a ball into the lights of the Skydome. Most of his HR balls weren't just "barely clearing the fence," chief. I'll accept a lot of things about McGwire and I acknowledge them all myself. He wasn't a good contact hitter. He couldn't run the bases. He was average defensively. He was far from a complete player. But he was really, really, really good at the power game.


Plus, we can't forget that Mac, too, was a cheater.


Eh, I'm not going to get into this whole thing again. I'm not saying McGwire did or didn't take roids. We all know he took andro. My stance is that while he was playing there were no rules that banned any of those substances. What you're trying to do is label him a cheater because he "broke a rule that wasn't there when he played." So why don't we just go ahead and label basically every player from the 50's, 60's and 70's as cheaters too due to amphetamine (greenie) usage? And every pitcher from Ruth's era as cheaters due to the spitball that is now illegal. At this rate, since we're labeling people cheaters for breaking rules that were put in _after_ they retired, I'll throw a crisp $100 bill someone's way if they can find me a player that never broke a rule... the only catch, even if you _could_ find a player that fits that mold, the prize can't be paid out until baseball folds. Since we never know when they'll put a rule in that says you can't wear stirrups or white cleats... or something else like that.


It doesn't appear that he imbibed quite as much as Bonds, or with as much percentage impact - but, because he cravenly "won't talk about the past" - in the face of such significant evidence against him - his batting records should be nullified, right along with Bonds & all the other cowardly cheats.

Heh, I don't know how you come to the concluson he didn't use as much "carrot juice" as Bonds. I don't even know for fact that either guy used steroids much less the quantity in which they used it. I'm not totally blind here and I can basically admit that they both probably roided. I mean, there's only so much circumstancial evidence that you can ignore.

However... and this is the big caveat here... there's no such drug, to my knowledge called "halloffameplayershotintheass" where people just stick a needle in their butt cheek and start playing like McGwire and Bonds. Now, I've always contended that people would be fools to think that steroids don't help at all. I can't think of a rational reason why anyone would risk early death, cancer, shrunken genitals, heart problems, stroke and liver problems by taking the damned things if they didn't help at all. However, there's way too many players that are probably on them that _aren't_ on Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire's skill level to say "dude, roids are a wonder drug that _made_ Bonds and Mac!" When you show me a syringe that can hit 70 and 73 homeruns all by itself, maybe you'll change my opinion. In the mean time... have fun discussing the never ending topic!

[Skin & Bones]

Maybe so, I have no allegiance to any of these frauds. I'm just not aware of all the evidence. Hanging out with Conseco in Oakland, he just may have had such cocktails. I thought BALCO supply to Bonds was more advances, but maybe not. Let Mac swing with the rest of them.

Flipping through Game of Shadows, and to Bond alleged steroid cocktail, I see no steroids used that weren't available to everyone. Balco did "specialize" in designer steroids, though the basic use of those steroids is to mask steroid tests. We also don't know if there was other suppliers of steroids/designer steroids that other players went to - So we can't rule out this factor.

I'm not condoning Bonds alleged cocktail, but I don't think it was any different than other cocktails used by other juicers.

[cardsfanatic]

I don't dispute that Mcgwire's probably the best power hitter ever ( ignoring issues of PED'S),


I wouldn't agree with that. McGwire isn't the best power hitter every. I was talking about strictly homerun power. That's it. McGwire was never fleet of foot enough to amass doubles and triples. His extra-base power lent itself to yard ball only. If we're throwing in all EBH then Bonds certainly has a leg to stand on with Mac in the "power" department.


I also believe Mac belongs in the HOF, and is certainly one of the most productive offensive players ever.

Well, at least we agree there.

[Skin & Bones]

I wouldn't agree with that. McGwire isn't the best power hitter every. I was talking about strictly homerun power. That's it. McGwire was never fleet of foot enough to amass doubles and triples. His extra-base power lent itself to yard ball only. If we're throwing in all EBH then Bonds certainly has a leg to stand on with Mac in the "power" department.


Right, which was my mistake. I actually meant to say strictly homeruns. Mainly how frequently he hit them.

[TRfromBR]

And I find it funny that someone who would boast about the length of McGwire's hr's as a means to prop him over Bonds would try to act like McGwire's homeruns were "weak and all to left field" in the same thread. Big Mac is the same guy that hit a ball out of Tiger Stadium and hit a ball into the lights of the Skydome. Most of his HR balls weren't just "barely clearing the fence," chief.



You had better go back and read what I said about McGwire, because you've completely manufactured a string of misquotes. Take the incredibly ridiculous paragraph above, for example. Each and every one of the quotes and arguments you attribute to me are completely fabricated. I never said that "McGwire's home runs were weak and all to left field." And I never said "most of his home run balls barely clear[ed] the fence. In fact, I've repeatedly pointed out throughout this thread how very powerful a hitter McGwire was "from day one." Why in the world did you make up all those fake quotes?

Apparently you resent my pointing out that, as powerful and dominant as McGwire was, Ruth was even better. I know Ruth didn't play for St. Louis, but my rating of him over McGwire isn't rational cause for you to start making up preposterous misquotes and arguments against me.

Why don't you start a new thread: "Ruth vs. McGwire: Who was the better Home Run Hitter?" Maybe McGwire will win, I don't know. But that won't change the fact that Ruth was better.

[TRfromBR]

Flipping through Game of Shadows, and to Bond alleged steroid cocktail, I see no steroids used that weren't available to everyone. Balco did "specialize" in designer steroids, though the basic use of those steroids is to mask steroid tests. We also don't know if there was other suppliers of steroids/designer steroids that other players went to - So we can't rule out this factor.

I'm not condoning Bonds alleged cocktail, but I don't think it was any different than other cocktails used by other juicers.

Sounds like you're probably right. I hope Mitchell does the right thing and diligently goes after everybody he can prove a case against. But, if you look at his track record, he's a compromiser, not a disciplinarian. So, it's likely all up to the Feds. God help us.

[KHenry14]

Henry Aaron hardly ever hit tape measure jobs, but he's a far better power hitter than McGwire. Hank's said in the past that all he had to do was hit the ball a foot over the fence as that counted as much as one that went 100 feet past.

[TRfromBR]

Henry Aaron hardly ever hit tape measure jobs, but he's a far better power hitter than McGwire. Hank's said in the past that all he had to do was hit the ball a foot over the fence as that counted as much as one that went 100 feet past.

Yes and no. Certainly the official scorer regards such hits equally. But, there are other very important levels to the value of a homer. As one example, the King of Swat was packing them in like sardines with his, literally, Ruthian shots, while people were yawning across the river at Mel Ott's chip shots. Moreover, if you're going to hit a ball "one foot over the fence," your success is likely to vary dramatically from game to game, depending on stadiums and opposing outfielders (not to mention pitching).

Having said all that, I'm sure Hank was speaking figuratively. As far as being a better power hitter, that requires some preliminary definitions, and probably a whole 'nother thread. I like Aaron over McGwire, but I'm sure there are good arguments for both, as far as power hitting goes.

[cardsfanatic]

Henry Aaron hardly ever hit tape measure jobs, but he's a far better power hitter than McGwire. Hank's said in the past that all he had to do was hit the ball a foot over the fence as that counted as much as one that went 100 feet past.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. However, I have a hard time accepting that Hank Aaron was a better homerun hitter than McGwire, Ruth or Bonds. It took the man an ungodly amount of plate appearances to break Ruth's record -- something like 3,000 more PA's than Ruth -- and he had literally almost double the career PA's of McGwire and only hit 170 more homeruns. Aaron might be the king of longevity and quantity of homeruns but he's nowhere near the best homerun hitter ever. Just like Pete Rose isn't anywhere near the best contact hitter God has ever graced us with. They both just happened to play until their breasts were hitting their knees as they rounded the bases, were healthy their entire careers and racked up an ungodly amount of plate appearances. Good stuff is bound to happen when you do that.

[west coast orange and black]

skin & bones: ...I see no steroids used that weren't available to everyone.
uh, kinda sorta; fainaru-wada and williams have not ever fully figured out what balco manufactured or distributed; have not ever fully determined what bonds used.


We also don't know if there was other suppliers of steroids/designer steroids that other players went to
uh-uh. there definitely were and have been other suppliers.


I don't think it was any different than other cocktails used by other juicers.
is your opinion based soley on the book's info, s + k? thanx.

[digglahhh]

P.S. How much can you love the game, as you profess, if you don't care at all that's its most prominent player is a flagrant cheat? Is this something you learned from reading one of William Kuntsler's losing briefs - of which he had many?

I like you, TR, but you should know better than trying to pull your apples to oranges analogies on me.

First off all, I never claimed I was a personal fan of William Kunstler. I just said that a lot of people compare me to him because I'm usually on the minority side of arguements. Of course, that is usually a misconception. I'm not playing devil's advocate, my ideals are actually in contrast to many of the practices I see. I know he lost many cases, he defended primarily guilty parties.

I also never stated that I do not care if Bonds is a cheat. My love for the game is not tied to 755. That's what I said. I don't like Bonds or his attitude, I just like yours even less - on this topic. I'm so sick of this nonsense that if you love the game, you have to hate Bonds. There is absolutely no foundation for that - get over it!

You're right, that is very simple. At the Nuremburg trials, do you think they should have prosecuted the low level Nazi scumbags with the same fervor and visibility as Hitler's main sidekicks. Of course not.

Completely apples to oranges. Do you not see the difference? Or, did you just hope others wouldn't?

Apparently, Barry Bonds was a self appointed leader of an organized movement who forced his underlings to take steroids under an implied threat. Apparently the seizing of global power and the homerun record are similar coups. I must have missed the part of Lawton's plea when he pointed to Barry and claimed and winced, "I was only following orders." This attempted analogy is not only completely off base, it is emblematic of your complete lack of rationale regarding this subject as a whole.


"Bogus Victimhood Crap" refers to your bogus claims that Bonds is the victim, when in fact he's the perp. You're starting to sound like William Kuntsler begging the court for mercy because his mother-killing client is an orphan.[/COLOR]

I'm not calling him a victim. He is a target of the media and of the fans and at the painful end of a double standard. It doesn't excuse what he did. If we are going to make a legal analogy. This isn't a case of "blame the victim," it is a case of equal crimes getting unequal sentences. He has been pretty damn near proven guilty, but he is a unique case because of his talent, not his crime.

[west coast orange and black]

dirk:
He is a target of the media and of the fans and at the painful end of a double standard.
It doesn't excuse what he did.
He has been pretty damn near proven guilty, but he is a unique case because of his talent, not his crime.

very well put, digglahhh.
i happen to agree.

[TRfromBR]

I like you, TR, but you should know better than trying to pull your apples to oranges analogies on me.

These things can sometimes happen when you're dealing with fruits & nuts, diggs.

And I like you, too, because you are a guy who walks the walk. I just happen to think Bonds doesn't deserve the sincerity of your defense. He's a phony and a cheat. I think you're legit.

I know he lost many cases, he defended primarily guilty parties.

This is exactly why I dwelled on him in relation to Bonds, who is also guilty.

I'm not calling him a victim. He is a target of the media and of the fans and at the painful end of a double standard.

Claiming he is an unfair target, being inflicted with pain, is indeed calling him a victim. In truth, he has victimized the game with his defiantly massive, protracted & ill-motivated cheating. The fact that he had such natural talent makes his cheating all the more unecessary and pathetic.
Having those beliefs, though, does not lessen my respect for your sincerity.

[Skin & Bones]

skin & bones: ...I see no steroids used that weren't available to everyone.
uh, kinda sorta; fainaru-wada and williams have not ever fully figured out what balco manufactured or distributed; have not ever fully determined what bonds used.


We also don't know if there was other suppliers of steroids/designer steroids that other players went to
uh-uh. there definitely were and have been other suppliers.


I don't think it was any different than other cocktails used by other juicers.
is your opinion based soley on the book's info, s + k? thanx.

West - I'm just basing my opinions on what's in the book. Everything they claim Bonds allegedly took was available to everyone. Maybe there's more to the story, but they both seem damn certain that everything you need to know about Bonds drug abuse is in their book.

[ESPNFan]

THG was not something that was available to everyone.

According to Will Carroll, he interviewed the man who created THG and explained exactly what it was and how it worked so well. It was a combination of Trenbolone (an Anabolic) and Gestrinone which is a female fertility drug. It was the way in which these two were combined that gave THG the unique characteristic of having the drug test itself break it down and render it undetectable. The discovery was basically an accident. But the person Carroll interviewed said that once they understood the science behind the accident then they had the best stuff out there. That is why BALCO had so amny high profile clients.

It was the best undetectable that money could buy at the time and it remained so until a rival track coach, Trevor Graham, turned in a sample of THG. Not because he wanted to do the right thing but because according to Carroll's source "Graham was juicing his guys too. He was just keeping his advantage. Take out Conte and Graham has got the best stuff on the block." And who was one of Graham's guys? Justin Gatlin, world's fastest man now serving an 8 year ban for doping.
There were other suppliers but Conte apparently had the best stuff out there, and obviously had some people with intimate knowledge behind the scenes guiding them. Conte, Anderson, Arnold, those guys were just running the storefront.

And not just anyone could make this substance, according to the source if he made 10 batches of Steroids, 4 would do little or nothing, 5 would be toxic to various degrees, and one would be exactly what he was looking for.
Now this source claims that (at the time) they were 3 generations beyond THG. THG wasn't something that just anyone could get. And its new incarnations are probably the same. Unless you know the right people you probably wont even know it exsists.

[Skin & Bones]

Interesting, over at BP, I couldn't find that article.

I did find one with this interesting tidbit though: Another expert, Dr. Charles Yesalis of Penn State, author of several books on performance-enhancing drugs, feels that the number is probably higher. "We have to assume that there are more designer steroids out there," he said in a phone conversation, "because THG is the fourth such drug found." Three other designer drugs, one a steroid and two that were stimulants, were developed in the Soviet Union and East Germany during the 1970s and 1980s. "Just like THG, they were only found because some brave soul stepped forward," he said. "Without something to match against, any drug is essentially undetectable."

I just think it's possible that there is other suppliers out there capable of putting together such drugs - Conte is just one caught, but I don't believe he's the only one.

I also found this on THG: According to Dr. Lewis Black of Aegis Sciences Corp., one of the leading drug-testing facilities in America, it is impossible to detect any drug that is not known. This sounds like common sense, but is in fact widely misunderstood. A drug test is something like a police lineup, where the tested urine, hair, or blood is broken down and compared to certain known substances. When there is a match, red lights flash and horns sound. However, much like a lineup, if the substance is unknown or if there's the chemical equivalent of reasonable doubt, the test is "passed." Add in masking agents, diluting substances, and even prescribed drugs and the testing becomes even harder. THG, is in fact, designed to be just slightly different from two known anabolic steroids. "The molecule is just different enough," said Dr. Black in a Baseball Prospectus Radio interview, "to not cause a failure."

The theory is that while adding a molecule would fool the testers, it wouldn't fool the body, and the steroid would have its full effect. Thing is, we don't know. Imagine being handed a syringe filled with a liquid that at first glance resembles urine. No one knows anything about this liquid. It's an anabolic steroid to be sure, engineered to be self-masking. We know that steroids, used in the typical, near-veterinary doses of athletic abusers, have serious side effects. Those effects, from the so-called minor ones like gynocemastia, liver problems, and loss of hair, run to kidney failure, tumors, and death. While many adult athletes may be willing to take this gamble in return for hoped athletic excellence, it is the trickle-down effect of performance-enhancing drugs that is most chilling.

[Skin & Bones]

Another: The drugs now made famous in the BALCO scandal are known as "the cream" and "the clear", but it's not clear what these substances actually were. The word "steroids" is used too often in the generic sense, while in fact only one of these substances is accurately described as a steroid. "The clear" is THG (tetrahydrogestrinone), an anabolic steroid that is a chemical combination of two other known steroids, gestrinone and trenbolone. "Chemically, it's brilliant," said the chemist. "It's just two things combined in order to bypass the testing. It requires very little change and appears to be relatively easy to synthesize. Any graduate level chemist could make it, although whoever thought of it would be at a much higher level." THG is said to be the fifth known designer steroid, according to steroid expert Charles Yesalis of Penn State University. Sadly, it is hardly going to be the last. .

Interesting. That seems to go against what your saying, ESPN, though it does mention that the creator would be at a higher level. Still could of been widely available though.

[ESPNFan]

Interesting. That seems to go against what your saying, ESPN, though it does mention that the creator would be at a higher level. Still could of been widely available though.

"The clear" is THG (tetrahydrogestrinone), an anabolic steroid that is a chemical combination of two other known steroids, gestrinone and trenbolone. "Chemically, it's brilliant," said the chemist. "It's just two things combined in order to bypass the testing. It requires very little change and appears to be relatively easy to synthesize. Any graduate level chemist could make it, although whoever thought of it would be at a much higher level."

Actually its exactly what I was saying. Something that is described as "chemically brilliant" is not something that that any graduate level chemist will be able to come up with, but if directed they could manufacture it. Your graduate level chemist in BALCO was most likely Patrick Arnold. If there were similar substances that were widely available, why did a rival track coach who was doping his own athletes not get some THG of his own instead of turning it in to authorities? That makes no sense. Also it would make no sense for the people who created it as they would make the most by keeping it exculsive. the more people that know about it the more likely it is to be discovered and then its worthless.

[Skin & Bones]

Actually its exactly what I was saying. Something that is described as "chemically brilliant" is not something that that any graduate level chemist will be able to come up with, but if directed they could manufacture it. Your graduate level chemist in BALCO was most likely Patrick Arnold. If there were similar substances that were widely available, why did a rival track coach who was doping his own athletes not get some THG of his own instead of turning it in to authorities? That makes no sense. Also it would make no sense for the people who created it as they would make the most by keeping it exculsive. the more people that know about it the more likely it is to be discovered and then its worthless.

I don't know what to say about the Track Coach. Maybe he didn't know it was available else where. Bonds tested positive for Amphetamines last season. He apparently wasn't aware of undetectable Greenies out there. Palmerio tested positive, apparently he wasn't aware that undetectable steroids were out there. Not everyone is aware of everything.

I'm just saying that the substance, or something similar to it could of been available else where, and we have yet to learn anything about it. Maybe when the "investigation" is through we may learn something new.

[ESPNFan]

I don't know what to say about the Track Coach. Maybe he didn't know it was available else where. Bonds tested positive for Amphetamines last season. He apparently wasn't aware of undetectable Greenies out there. Palmerio tested positive, apparently he wasn't aware that undetectable steroids were out there. Not everyone is aware of everything.

I'm just saying that the substance, or something similar to it could of been available else where, and we have yet to learn anything about it. Maybe when the "investigation" is through we may learn something new.

According to Carroll's source Trevor Graham made himself the best outlet for cutting edge steroids once he eliminated Conte. So apparently he knew exactly what THG was but turned it in, and by doing removed Conte and made himself THE provider to the athletic elite.

Undetectable greenies are apparently so undetectable no body has ever heard of them. The only one I ever heard of was again from Patrick Arnold and wasn't anything new or innovative like THG. It was just an old forgotten formulation that nobody tested for, using his old Andro tricks again. And given the nasty habit that amphetamines have of killing people with one wrong dose, its highly unlikely they would be something that could safely produced on an underground level without some serious chemical know how.
couple that with the fact that there is no where near the money in amphetamines as ther is in Steroids/HGH and that there are plenty of substances that can legally approximate the lift that greenies provide it just leaves little profit or reason to create them.

Palmeiro was probably using the same steroid he used for years and just thought he wouldn't get caught.


i'm sure there are many substances that we don't know about that are undetectable. Hell there are people that try to make their own stuff in ways that would make a home meth lab look sanitary and its probably undetectable. If they work and how toxic they are is another question entirely. Given what we know and how many athletes from different sports were invovled I don't think that there was anything that was as successful as THG among that select group of elite BALCO athletes.

[Skin & Bones]

According to Carroll's source Trevor Graham made himself the best outlet for cutting edge steroids once he eliminated Conte. So apparently he knew exactly what THG was but turned it in, and by doing removed Conte and made himself THE provider to the athletic elite.

Fine, but what article is this from

Undetectable greenies are apparently so undetectable no body has ever heard of them. The only one I ever heard of was again from Patrick Arnold and wasn't anything new or innovative like THG. It was just an old forgotten formulation that nobody tested for, using his old Andro tricks again. And given the nasty habit that amphetamines have of killing people with one wrong dose, its highly unlikely they would be something that could safely produced on an underground level without some serious chemical know how.
couple that with the fact that there is no where near the money in amphetamines as ther is in Steroids/HGH and that there are plenty of substances that can legally approximate the lift that greenies provide it just leaves little profit or reason to create them.

I highly doubt Gary Wadler is making things up. There most likely is undetectable amphetamines out there, and are probably used today. I never said there was " as much money " in Amphetamines as there is steroids, but this doesn't rule out that Undetectable Amphetamines are mostly likely out there, and used.

And the "legal alternatives" to Amphetamines, are well, a joke. Gary Wadler pointed out this factor, as well as several other athletes. If these "alternatives" were to provide the same performance enhancing benefits greenies do, they wouldn't be used knowing that there's a serious health risk accompanied by it's use.

Whether those shots of caffeine actually replace or mimic the effects of a greenie is up for debate.

"I hear it's not the same. I've never taken a greenie, personally," Zito says. "But I know there are Mexican diet pills, and the way I heard the diet pills affect you, it gets you jittery and amped up and stuff. I've never had that effect with a cup of coffee."

Wadler warns that players who charge up on coffee and other caffeinated products actually might be accomplishing the opposite of what they're after.

"There's increasing evidence that increased amounts of caffeine actually impair performance," he said.

Some alternatives :)





i'm sure there are many substances that we don't know about that are undetectable. Hell there are people that try to make their own stuff in ways that would make a home meth lab look sanitary and its probably undetectable. If they work and how toxic they are is another question entirely. Given what we know and how many athletes from different sports were invovled I don't think that there was anything that was as successful as THG among that select group of elite BALCO athletes.

And that's based on what we know now. In a few years, we may know a lot more.

[Skin & Bones]

I found info on Arnold's substance: The Washington Post recently reported that Patrick Arnold, the Illinois chemist who pleaded guilty to supplying BALCO with the designer steroid THG, is marketing a supplement whose active ingredient is an amphetaminelike substance that was patented in 1944. It's so obscure, current drug tests don't look for it.

Interesting - This could be a substance used by many athletes now to enhance their performance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2492703

[ESPNFan]

Fine, but what article is this from
Its from Will Carroll's book The Juice.

I highly doubt Gary Wadler is making things up. There most likely is undetectable amphetamines out there, and are probably used today. I never said there was " as much money " in Amphetamines as there is steroids, but this doesn't rule out that Undetectable Amphetamines are mostly likely out there, and used.

But it certainly reduces the amount of people willing to risk the penalties for drug crimes for less money.

And the "legal alternatives" to Amphetamines, are well, a joke. Gary Wadler pointed out this factor, as well as several other athletes. If these "alternatives" were to provide the same performance enhancing benefits greenies do, they wouldn't be used knowing that there's a serious health risk accompanied by it's use.


Some alternatives :)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE0504/S00053.htm

“Several studies have shown that caffeine enhances performance of single bouts of endurance exercise such as long distance running, but its effects on repeated bouts typical of those in high-intensity team sports are unclear.

“This study showed benefits for athletes including sprinting speed, fatigue reduction and up to a 10 per cent improvement in passing accuracy. These results are quite remarkable and show there are significant performance advantages across the board,” he says.


Gary Walder needs to get some up to date reserch...

And that's based on what we know now. In a few years, we may know a lot more.

I hope we do.

[west coast orange and black]

skin & bones: Maybe there's more to the story, but they both seem damn certain that everything you need to know about Bonds drug abuse is in their book.
not by the length of bonds' 8 june 2002 yankee stadium shot. that is, not by a country mile.

[Skin & Bones]

Its from Will Carroll's book The Juice.


Cool, I'll check it out.

But it certainly reduces the amount of people willing to risk the penalties for drug crimes for less money.

But if they can still make some money on Athletes lookin' to cheat, I don't see why not.


And what you found on Caffeine is interesting - But does that prove that they are a legit alternative to Greenies? We all know Creatine can enhance athletic performance, but are they a legit alternative to Steroids?

I think the answers to both questions are no.



I hope we do.

Same here.

[ESPNFan]

I found info on Arnold's substance:

Interesting - This could be a substance used by many athletes now to enhance their performance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2492703

Yeah not likely, they probably missed that boat once that substance and BALCO related Patrick Arnold were named in the same article.

[ESPNFan]

And what you found on Caffeine is interesting - But does that prove that they are a legit alternative to Greenies? We all know Creatine can enhance athletic performance, but are they a legit alternative to Steroids?

I think the answers to both questions are no.


Creatine does not work in a similar fashion to Steroids. They are two different substances which are designed to promote muscle growth.

Caffeine and Amphetamines are both Stimulants and work in similar ways. You could even say that Caffiene might be better in the long run because its not as addictive and its side effects are not nearly as severe and it would provide the boost that most athletes looking to stimulants would seek.

[Skin & Bones]

Creatine does not work in a similar fashion to Steroids. They are two different substances which are designed to promote muscle growth.

Caffeine and Amphetamines are both Stimulants and work in similar ways. You could even say that Caffiene might be better in the long run because its not as addictive and its side effects are not nearly as severe and it would provide the boost that most athletes looking to stimulants would seek.

I never said that Creatine works in a similar fashion to steroids, but they most certainly do enable someone to build muscle. You can toss Andro in that group as well, a once "legal" supplement that's believed to enhance performance, though not at the level of anabolic steroids.

Caffeine and Amphetamines may be similar in term of them being stimulants, but when it comes to enhancing performance, Amphetamines clearly do more. If all these athletes just needed " coffee " to provide what they wanted, there wouldn't be such rampant use of an illegal, and harmful drug. It's rampant because it works.

[Dirt Dog]

Bonds' brother bothered by baseball snub
ESPN

Bobby Bonds Jr. does not know for certain if his famous older brother took steroids, but he believes Barry deserves better treatment from Major League Baseball as he approaches Henry Aaron's career home run record.

In an interview with the Newark Star-Ledger, Bobby Bonds Jr. says he's bothered that commissioner Bud Selig has not committed to being present when Barry hits home run Nos. 755 and 756 -- and that Aaron has said he'll be elsewhere playing golf when the moment comes.

"Especially Hank Aaron," Bonds Jr., whose late father played in the same era as Aaron, told the newspaper. "Hank Aaron does not even want to support Barry. Being a black man going through what he went through in the past and not supporting my brother, it kind of makes me look at him like, 'Are you serious, brother? Are you serious?' "

"Cut the steroids out, just look at my brother as a human being. He stole bases, he ran, he caught the ball," Bonds Jr. told the Star-Ledger. "It's so hard to justify what's going on with baseball and how they're treating him."

Bobby Bonds Jr., 37, had warning-track power as a hitter and never made it past Triple-A. He now lives in New Jersey, where he settled after playing for the Somerset Patriots of the independent Atlantic League, and drives a forklift for a living. He knows of ex-teammates who used steroids when he refused to do the same.

"That's where my career ended," he told the newspaper. "But I refused to take them. I refused to shoot anything into my butt. If I couldn't make it naturally, then I didn't deserve to be there."

So what about his 42-year-old brother? Barry Bonds, who holds baseball's single-season home run record and is 10 homers shy of tying Aaron's career record of 755, was a focal point of the BALCO investigation, but he has never failed a drug test and has repeatedly said that he has never knowingly used steroids.

"Everyone asks," Bobby Bonds Jr. told the Star-Ledger. "The only thing I tell them is the same thing I tell everyone, 'I don't know if he took [steroids]. Even if he did, he wouldn't have told me.' "

Bobby Bonds Jr. said he even asked his brother point-blank about steroids.

"He said, 'No man, I don't need to do that [stuff].' Point blank. I'm not going to sit here and try to pump my brother up," he told the newspaper. "If he did it, if he snuck it, he's not going to let me know. You know what I mean? And if he did, he kept it quiet from the whole world."

"When other people started getting busted, of course, this guy hit 73 home runs [in 2001], he's big as hell, let's go after him. But they've tested him, he's come back negative. I don't understand why they keep bringing it up. They can't prove it."

Barry has remained rather mum about his pursuit of Aaron's record. Ninety minutes before the Giants opened a three-game series in Houston on Tuesday night, he was engulfed by about 50 reporters but refused to open up.

"I haven't done any interviews about myself at all. I'm not going to start now," he said. "If you want to talk about us and the team, and how we're doing, that's fine. But I'm not doing interviews about me. I haven't done any at all, and I'm not going to start now."

Houston's Lance Berkman said Tuesday if Bonds' eclipses Aaron's record, it should be considered tainted.
"Yeah, I think it is tainted," Berkman, quoted in the Houston Chronicle, said. "I think people are going to look at it as tainted whether it truly is or not. I think it has gotten to the point now in the media that people are assuming that he's guilty. While it's not what we're supposed to do in America, it's certainly what's happened in this case."

Bonds is off to another strong start and credits his good health as the main reason. He has 11 home runs, 23 RBI, a .511 on-base percentage and .300 batting average.

"I'm really proud of my brother," Bobby Bonds Jr. told the Star-Ledger. "It's unfortunate that reporters take it to another level and not just look at him as a human being who loves the game. I don't care if it's negative or positive, at least in the history books, they're going to know our last name!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Bobby Jr., have a seat. You're 15 minutes are up. :blah:

[TRfromBR]

[B][SIZE="4"]


[a]t least in the history books, they're going to know our last name!"

Hey Bobby Jr., have a seat. You're 15 minutes are up. :blah:

Well, at least this Bonds seems to have a good heart. He's just trying to help out his brother - who doesn't deserve it. He shouldn't attack Aaron like he's some kind of Uncle Tom, though. Aaron just happens to see right through the whole charade of Bonds' "record." It's not a racial issue - as (Barry) Bonds wants everyone to believe. It's an issue of integrity.

His brother's right about one thing: Bonds' name will go down in history.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well, at least this Bonds seems to have a good heart. He's just trying to help out his brother - who doesn't deserve it. He shouldn't attack Aaron like he's some kind of Uncle Tom, though. Aaron just happens to see right through the whole charade of Bonds' "record." It's not a racial issue - as (Barry) Bonds wants everyone to believe. It's an issue of integrity.

His brother's right about one thing: Bonds' name will go down in history.



Bobby, Jr. basically calling Hank Aaron an Uncle Tom really rubbed me the wrong way, too. That's just low.

[Mattingly]

From the link:
[quote]"Everyone asks," Bobby Bonds Jr. told the Star-Ledger. "The only thing I tell them is the same thing I tell everyone, 'I don't know if he took [steroids]. Even if he did, he wouldn't have told me.' "

Bobby Bonds Jr. said he even asked his brother point-blank about steroids.

"He said, 'No man, I don't need to do that [stuff].' Point blank. I'm not going to sit here and try to pump my brother up," he told the newspaper. "If he did it, if he snuck it, he's not going to let me know. You know what I mean? And if he did, he kept it quiet from the whole world."
Interesting that his own brother doesn't get to know a "yes" or a "no", and that Barry wouldn't even tell his own brother what's going on.

[Ubiquitous]

His brother did get a yes or no answer. Bobby Jr. asked him if he was Barry said no.

[Mattingly]

Bobby, Jr. basically calling Hank Aaron an Uncle Tom really rubbed me the wrong way, too. That's just low.
Bobby Bonds, Jr, the baseball failure, has no right whatsoever to tell Hank Aaron, the baseball legend, the man who withstood the very cold winter of '73 stuck on #713 and a prime target of every yahoo on the planet who wanted Ruth's record preserved, what he should do.

I can think of only one black player who was so inspired countless to see him fail, and that would be the legendary Jackie Robinson. Only he could have understood what Aaron went through. Bobby the failure should send Hank a lengthy note of apology, thanking him for all he's done for others. Had Bobby, Jr been more talented, he could've realized some of the fruit borne upon the letters of pure hatred that Aaron unfortunately inspired.

I have no idea how the "black" thing becomes room for discussion here. Had Bobby, Jr been able to see past the family ties, he could've known an accused cheater when he sees one.

[Mattingly]

His brother did get a yes or no answer. Bobby Jr. asked him if he was Barry said no.
From the article:
Even if he did, he wouldn't have told me.
That's what I'd meant. How do you go on the record about your brother and your own brother wouldn't have even told you if he took PEDs? To me, that means that if Barry did take anything, then Bobby, Jr, the Minor League failure wouldn't have been the one to know. How then can Bobby, Jr question Hank's integrity? To me, he should be questioning the integrity of one human being:

Barry Lamar Bonds! That's it!

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: Bobby Bonds, Jr, the baseball failure, has no right whatsoever to tell Hank Aaron, the baseball legend .... what he should do.
very surprised to read this.
there is but one man -- who happens to be deceased -- who can comment?

[Mattingly]

two-three: Bobby Bonds, Jr, the baseball failure, has no right whatsoever to tell Hank Aaron, the baseball legend .... what he should do.
very surprised to read this.
there is but one man -- who happens to be deceased -- who can comment?
To me, Bobby Bonds, Jr is only famous in name (his father's, anyway), but not in accomplishments. Henry Aaron is legendary in accomplishments which made his name.

As much hatred as Hank withstood that cold winter, I'm surprised that someone could call him out on any racial thing, much less someone who's never even been able to reap the rewards set forth before him by people like Aaron and Barry's godfather, Say Hey.

No, I don't believe that only one man (if you're referring to the legendary Jackie Robinson) can comment. If so, we wouldn't need BBF and other forums. To me, Bobby, Jr has no complaints to make of Hank. If anything, only Willie Mays owes Barry Bonds any celebration.

If Hank feels that Barry has tarnished the HR record, he, in my opinion, has earned every single right to think this, and I don't believe it is for someone who's never even played the game at its highest level to question the integrity of such a legend.

If Bobby, Jr wouldn't expect Barry to tell him whether or not he'd taken PEDs, then it's obvious to myself that Barry won't be telling anyone else either whether or not he'd taken these.

Let's just say that I could do w/o either of the Bonds brothers, but Henry Aaron's level of distinction is, to me, far above either of them.

[Mattingly]

Jr. made himself a nice chunk a change for being such a bad baseball player. He played 3 seasons in the Monty Brewster Baseball Association and he got paid $300,000 a season for doing this:

Year/Team/League G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB HP SF K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS VORP
1995 VAN - MBBA 147 572 143 31 12 24 76 79 33 1 2 151 31 15 .250 .291 .472 .763 19.5
1996 VAN - MBBA 111 443 118 25 6 15 58 59 22 3 5 126 36 15 .266 .302 .451 .754 13.5
1997 HAK - MBBA 151 573 157 39 12 17 75 68 30 3 2 132 46 24 .274 .313 .473 .785 30.1
Total MBBA 409 1588 418 95 30 56 209 206 85 7 9 409 113 54 .263 .302 .467 .769 63.1


I don't know how much Fresno paid him to put up the .569 OPS in 1998.
Well, maybe I overexagerrated the "failure" part, but compared to Hank Aaron, I'd say he's a failure. How can someone speak for their brother when his own brother isn't going to speak? That Minor League career thing is cute, but it simply isn't even in the same planet as Aaron's.

Regardless, to me, Hank has every right not to associate himself with someone whom he feels has tarnished the image of the career HR record. If Hank believes that Barry has not legitimately gone about capturing this by keeping his body free of PEDs, then I believe he's more than earned the right to do so. Having a career Minor Leaguer who's speaking for his brother, I don't believe that's appropriate.

I presume that Mays doesn't wish to get involved with this, so to me, Barry should speak for himself, and hopefully, in a very respectful manner, in that Aaron is, to me, respected far and beyond by a much greater measure than is Barry Bonds.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: To me, Bobby, Jr has no complaints to make of Hank.
that's cool; that's yer opinion.

If Hank feels that Barry has tarnished the HR record >>> to question the integrity of such a legend.
ok. i just don't get where you believe that bonds, jr questioned aaron's integrity.

[Mattingly]

two-three: To me, Bobby, Jr has no complaints to make of Hank.
that's cool; that's yer opinion.
Exactly. Nothing more or less.
If Hank feels that Barry has tarnished the HR record >>> to question the integrity of such a legend.
ok. i just don't get where you believe that bonds, jr questioned aaron's integrity.
From the 2nd paragraph that Dirt Dog quoted of Bobby, Jr:
"Especially Hank Aaron," Bonds Jr., whose late father played in the same era as Aaron, told the newspaper. "Hank Aaron does not even want to support Barry. Being a black man going through what he went through in the past and not supporting my brother, it kind of makes me look at him like, 'Are you serious, brother? Are you serious?' "

"Cut the steroids out, just look at my brother as a human being. He stole bases, he ran, he caught the ball," Bonds Jr. told the Star-Ledger. "It's so hard to justify what's going on with baseball and how they're treating him."
Are you serious, brother? Is that what Bobby, Jr has to say? That Bonds hasn't done enough on his part as a black man for Bobby, Jr's tastes? If only Bobby, Jr were good enough in the MLB to have realized how much Aaron meant as a baseball player, he could've realized the fruits that Aaron has planted, cooked the recipe that Aaron mixed.

That's why I said that only Willie Mays, who played in Hank's era, could've been the one to say this, but I can certainly understand why Willie wouldn't wish to get into a shouting match with Hank. At least Willie Mays has the common sense to understand decency, and that making a stinky argument over a simple snub isn't worth risking any form of the wealth of respect he's more than earned (unlike Bobby, Jr).

Geez, like it's the end of Barry's Little World because neither Aaron nor Selig are willing to commit to this thing. Seems like the Earth revolves around Barry Bonds, I feel sometimes.

To me, only one living baseball player has come through all the hatred of masses of people willing to see him fail, and got hate mail galore. That would be Hank Aaron during the winter of '73-'74 when he was 2nd to Ruth by a single HR.

Bobby Bonds, Jr is on neither the same planet as Aaron in terms of accomplishments, he's not done anything remotely as close as Aaron as far as withstanding abuse, and like the legendary Jackie Robinson, he didn't go fighting back every single yahoo out there who wanted to see him fail or in a coffin. So if that isn't enough for Bobby Bonds, Jr, then he should try being very respectful of his far greater elders, including those who've handled themselves in a far more dignified manner than either of the Bonds brothers have ever done (in my opinion).

[Mattingly]

Ending each day with a toon means you'll awake with a smile on your face. Beginning your day with a toon can mean a very happy day. :)

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/05/16/gallo16.gif

[Ubiquitous]

Well, maybe I overexagerrated the "failure" part, but compared to Hank Aaron, I'd say he's a failure. How can someone speak for their brother when his own brother isn't going to speak? That Minor League career thing is cute, but it simply isn't even in the same planet as Aaron's.



My post was not a response to yours. Bobby Bonds was truly a bad baseball player (relative to other professionals of course) and yet the guy was still pulling down 300K a year. I just found that amazing.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Honestly, Matt, I hardly see any relevance to Bobby Jr's occupation in regards to his speaking up for his brother. Are you telling me if you had a sibling about to accomplish something major, and someone who accomplished it before wanted nothing to do with it, you'd sit back in deference and not speak out for your very own flesh and blood?
Barry is his brother. All the things in the world Hank Aaron has done as a baseball player and a human being does not trump that.

[Mattingly]

Honestly, Matt, I hardly see any relevance to Bobby Jr's occupation in regards to his speaking up for his brother. Are you telling me if you had a sibling about to accomplish something major, and someone who accomplished it before wanted nothing to do with it, you'd sit back in deference and not speak out for your very own flesh and blood?
Barry is his brother. All the things in the world Hank Aaron has done as a baseball player and a human being does not trump that.
I'll give it to you as far as occupation, but I'm not budging much as to what Aaron has done and the conditions he's done it under. Looking at all the hate mail that Aaron received that winter from '73 to '74, and the classy manner in which he handled the blatant hatred, I'd say that Bobby Bonds, Jr doesn't have much to stand on that Aaron owes his brother Barry anything as a black man. If anything, it's Barry who owes Hank something, and that would be a lot.

Would I speak up for a relative? Very likely if he was as famous, but I would never under any circumstances ask someone who's been through so much to support someone simply because of race. Hank has already dignified his place as far as race and how he's carried himself strongly during that time. Barry and Bobby, Jr could learn well from this.

I may privately ask Aaron to come to the game, but I wouldn't have any cricitism for him if he chose not to. Like I said, Hank has more than gained the right not to go to a place where he believes his record was surpassed but wasn't done fairly. If Hank doesn't feel that Barry used legitimate means to very likely surpass #755, then to me, that's his right.

It's obvious from reading Bobby, Jr's own words that he himself isn't certain that his own brother is drug-free, so I'm not taking either of them seriously.

Barry, unlike McGwire and Sosa, would've already have been in on the first ballot. These allegations just make me wonder if he only took PEDs just so that he could get the single-season and career HR records. I'd have much preferred that Bonds get 550-600 or even 600+ w/o scandal than 756+ with scandal.

If Tommy Aaron had still been alive, I wish he'd have advised Bobby, Jr to encourage his brother to come clean about whether he'd used anything. All these ties to BALCO make me feel that there are more important things in baseball. If Barry himself doesn't care much for this, that's fine. I don't care much for him, nor do I to honor him. I'm glad that Hank Aaron shares this view.

My feeling is that, like Rose, McGwire and Sosa, if someone tarnishes a record, then they don't deserve to be honored. I believe that more effort and time should be spent to Barry's allegations of PED usage and ties to BALCO than Bobby, Jr's worrying about his brother being snubbed (like the world revolves around Barry Bonds).

If I had my own flesh and blood being involved in all this, I'd like to get a clear answer from *HIM* before I approached a legend. Him being my own brother wouldn't excuse my getting a definitive answer. In fact, if he couldn't be 100% honest with me, then what's the advantage of him being flesh and blood? I'm supposed to support a relative who can't tell me whether he'd used PEDs or not beyond the media-hyped "not knowingly used" thing? No way!

As mentioned upthread, if Barry isn't going to definitely tell his own brother that he did or didn't use PEDs, then I don't expect any honesty on his part towards anyone else. If that's not dishonorable, I don't know what is.

[Mattingly]

My post was not a response to yours. Bobby Bonds was truly a bad baseball player (relative to other professionals of course) and yet the guy was still pulling down 300K a year. I just found that amazing.
Thanks for the clarification. :)

I just think that re protocol, Barry himself could've asked to privately speak to Aaron, rather than his brother going to bat for him. Either that or ask Mays to be an intermediary. I'm just not too crazy (to say the least) about Barry's brother criticizing Aaron publicly the way he did.

Right now, I'm happy that Bonds won't be getting the same treatment as Aaron, in that he'd get special baseballs pitched only to him that had some code embedded. I remember Aaron had some dispute with Bowie Kuhn about that time re his playing on a special day, but that's it.

Why doesn't Bobby, Jr criticize Selig for not saying he'll show up? I remember that 1974 season when Aaron broke Ruth's record and I just don't have the same feel-good emotions that there were back then, even if some in the media tried belittling Aaron's accomplishments. At least Aaron's integrity wasn't challenged, despite his having used greenies at the time (like many others of his era).

[TRfromBR]

Why doesn't Bobby, Jr criticize Selig for not saying he'll show up?



Excellent point, Mattingly. This would be the far more valid criticism, no matter which side of this issue your on. I personally believe that Selig is one of the progenitors of the steroid scandal. I don't like Bonds for cheating, but I regard the MLB as the more guilty party. They encouraged these abuses, and created the circumstances for it to thrive. All out of greed.

As much as I don't like Bonds, I think it's wrong to punish him alone, especially without punishing the creeps who planned and profited from this whole misadventure.

Selig is not being a hero by not showing up - he's being a coward and a fraud. Aaron, on the other hand, appears to be silently protesting the whole charade.

[Ubiquitous]

Bobby Jr. did.

[Mattingly]

Excellent point, Mattingly. This would be the far more valid criticism, no matter which side of this issue your on. I personally believe that Selig is one of the progenitors of the steroid scandal. I don't like Bonds for cheating, but I regard the MLB as the more guilty party. They encouraged these abuses, and created the circumstances for it to thrive. All out of greed.

As much as I don't like Bonds, I think it's wrong to punish him alone, especially without punishing the creeps who planned and profited from this whole misadventure.

Selig is not being a hero by not showing up - he's being a coward and a fraud. Aaron, on the other hand, appears to be silently protesting the whole charade.
I'm curious, why the need to post in blue? Did you think I couldn't read your post otherwise??? :confused:

I haven't closely followed Selig's dealings with steroids and other PEDs, so please feel free to enlighten me on anything I may have missed. It seemed more like he'd looked the other way while everything was being swept under the carpet, hoping not to create too much suspicion. I do realize that he's adoring of offensive numbers, but unsure how he played an active role in allowing this to continue.

If someone gets a needle up their tush, then you'd have to blame their teammates also if done in the lockerroom. It's not as if someone wouldn't notice this being done to a large grown man who's on your own team.

I'm not sure if it's Selig's cowardice or not. If he showed up, he could be accused of "approving" of how Bonds got the #756.

Lastly, since we're all familiar with Selig's affiliation with the city of Milwaukee, WI, then it's notable that Aaron began his career with the Milwaukee Braves and ended it with the Milwaukee Brewers (after he'd said the Braves didn't appreciate him enough, according to his ESPN SportsCenter bio). I believe that Selig may be deferring to the man he's known and been a big fan of for about 50 years. That's not exactly a short period of time.

Under this NY Times baseball link (http://nytimes.com/sports/baseball/), you'll see a slide show of Selig regarding steroids, the Mitchell Report and Barry Bonds. Under the latter, you'll see a pic of Selig and Aaron.

Here's a related NY Times article:

The Commissioner of Baseball Is on Deck (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/sports/baseball/12selig.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/05/12/sports/12selig.600.1.jpg
Darren Hauck for The New York Times
Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig in his Milwaukee office. He said he doesn’t know if he will be there
in person if Barry Bonds breaks the home run record.

MILWAUKEE, May 11 — Bud Selig, the commissioner of Major League Baseball, slowly turned the desk chair in his 30th-floor corner office toward a panoramic view of Lake Michigan. Few could see him here, but Selig knows the eyes of the nation’s baseball fans are watching him.

With Barry Bonds rapidly approaching Hank Aaron’s revered record of 755 career home runs, Selig is nearing a defining moment for baseball. Bonds’s impending achievement would normally have the sport in a congratulatory frenzy, except that many fans view Bonds’s ascendancy as the signature event of the ignominious steroids era.

As news leaks and federal investigators widen the scope of baseball’s steroid entanglement almost daily, Selig, the common-man commissioner from middle-class Midwestern means, must decide whether to take the most symbolic step of all: snubbing Bonds with his absence at the ballpark where home run No. 756 crests an outfield wall.

Selig said that he had not made up his mind what to do. But tellingly, in an 80-minute interview Thursday, he neither praised Bonds nor expressed sympathy for Bonds’s current plight, which includes being vigorously booed in ballparks he visits around the country.
Bobby Jr. did.
You know how long ago he'd said this? I haven't come across the article. Link? :)

Thx. :)

[Mattingly]

One more point to make: when Aaron weathered the twisting tornade that came about when he'd slowly approach Ruth's record, Bonds never came anywhere near this. Most of the stuff that was Ruth-related that people disagreed with was self-inflicted, since it was he (unlike with Aaron) who'd said that Ruth should be forgotten about afterwards.

Just think, had Willie Mays been 2nd behind only Ruth, how much negativity would Bonds be getting right now, in addition to his surly demeanor and PED allegations? I'd say a lot more than what he's currently getting.

For smoothing that road, I believe that Barry Bonds (as well as his brother, Bobby, Jr) should be quite thankful.

[Ubiquitous]

You know how long ago he'd said this? I haven't come across the article. Link? :)

Thx. :)

It is in the first paragraph of the article. They don't quote him but say he is not happy that Selig won't be there. They then focus the entire article on Hank Aaron. I would love to see the transcript and what Bobby said completely and what the authro asked. I'm pretty sure we would find that Bobby was not happy with Bud either but the real story was his comments on Aaron. so that was what was given to the public to read.

[TRfromBR]

I'm curious, why the need to post in blue? Did you think I couldn't read your post otherwise??? :confused:

I haven't closely followed Selig's dealings with steroids and other PEDs, so please feel free to enlighten me on anything I may have missed. It seemed more like he'd looked the other way while everything was being swept under the carpet, hoping not to create too much suspicion. I do realize that he's adoring of offensive numbers, but unsure how he played an active role in allowing this to continue.

If someone gets a needle up their tush, then you'd have to blame their teammates also if done in the lockerroom. It's not as if someone wouldn't notice this being done to a large grown man who's on your own team.

I'm not sure if it's Selig's cowardice or not. If he showed up, he could be accused of "approving" of how Bonds got the #756.

Lastly, since we're all familiar with Selig's affiliation with the city of Milwaukee, WI, then it's notable that Aaron began his career with the Milwaukee Braves and ended it with the Milwaukee Brewers (after he'd said the Braves didn't appreciate him enough, according to his ESPN SportsCenter bio). I believe that Selig may be deferring to the man he's known and been a big fan of for about 50 years. That's not exactly a short period of time.

Under this NY Times baseball link (http://nytimes.com/sports/baseball/), you'll see a slide show of Selig regarding steroids, the Mitchell Report and Barry Bonds. Under the latter, you'll see a pic of Selig and Aaron.

Here's a related NY Times article:

The Commissioner of Baseball Is on Deck (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/sports/baseball/12selig.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/05/12/sports/12selig.600.1.jpg
Darren Hauck for The New York Times
Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig in his Milwaukee office. He said he doesn’t know if he will be there
in person if Barry Bonds breaks the home run record.


Selig was put in power because he was certain to be a commissioner who enforced the best [read: greedy] interests of the owners. First they axed Fay Vincent, one of the true great commissioners - an honest, intellectual, and true-blooded baseball man. Then, they installed 'I'll do anything-you-say-boss" Selig. No time here and now, but there was a well-written book about Selig that came out a couple of years ago. Suffice it to say, he not only knew about the PED's, he greatly facilitated their rampant usage. I'm in the same camp as those who think it's unfair for Bonds to be the fall guy for a whole pack of liars & cheats. Still, that's no reason to go around cheering for the guy, either.

P.S. Regarding the blue lettering, I am at the computer a great deal of time, and the blue font relieves the strain on my ever-worsening eyes. It's not that necessary for me on short posts, but significantly better for me on reading and editing longer posts - like this one.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: If anything, it's Barry who owes Hank something, and that would be a lot.
bonds speaks only highly of aaron, and with much due respect.

but I would never under any circumstances ask someone who's been through so much to support someone simply because of race.
well, that's you. different strokes.

If Hank doesn't feel that Barry used legitimate means to very likely surpass #755, then to me, that's his right.
true. but is this aaron's expressed reason for not attending?

It's obvious from reading Bobby, Jr's own words that he himself isn't certain that his own brother is drug-free, so I'm not taking either of them seriously.
bonds has probably witheld certain things from certain people because of legal issues - being subpoened as witness, having to testify.

if Barry isn't going to definitely tell his own brother that he did or didn't use PEDs, then I don't expect any honesty on his part towards anyone else. If that's not dishonorable, I don't know what is.
if bonds told his brother that yes, he did use, what is bobby gonna say to the media?
if bonds told his brother that he did not use, bobby jr's words to the media are not gonna be believed by many.
again, the legal issues are probably involved here.

[Elvis]

Aaron will not reconsider decision

May 22, 2007

NEW YORK (AP) -- Even if Barry Bonds is poised to break the home run record right there in Atlanta, Hank Aaron is not going.

Period.

"I will never reconsider my decision," Aaron told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Tuesday from his adopted hometown.

Bonds is 10 homers from matching the 755 mark that Aaron set during a 23-year career with the Milwaukee and Atlanta Braves, and the Milwaukee Brewers.

Aaron doesn't plan to see the milestone homer in person, wherever it might happen. And that includes Atlanta, if it takes that long -- Bonds and his San Francisco Giants don't play there until mid-August.

"No, I won't be there," he said.

Asked why, Aaron said: "I traveled for 23 years, and I just get tired of traveling. I'm not going to fly to go see somebody hit a home run, no matter whether it is Barry or Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig or whoever it may be. I'm not going any place. I wish him all the luck in the world."

Aaron said he had no wisdom for Bonds as the Giants slugger pursued the mark.

"I don't have any advice whatsoever, no advice to anybody," Aaron said.

The interview largely covered a classical music composition by Richard Danielpour whose subjects are Aaron, Jackie Robinson and Josh Gibson.

Aaron for the most part declined to discuss Bonds, whose run for the record has been tainted by allegations that he has used performance-enhancing drugs.

Aaron, a Braves senior vice president, said he follows his team closely, but usually by television from home rather than going to Turner Field.

As to what he might be doing when Bonds broke the record, Aaron said, "I have no idea, probably playing golf somewhere."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-aaron-bonds&prov=ap&type=lgns

:waving

[Bench 5]

Aaron isn't obligated in any way whatsoever to attend the game. Even if he were being passed by someone that was universally considered a "clean" player, I wouldn't hold it against him.

I remember when Franco Harris and Walter Payton were within striking distance of Jim Brown. Brown openly criticized Harris and challenged him to a contest of events to show everyone that he was still the greatest. And I don't remember him being at the game when Payton broke the record (although maybe he was and I just don't remember).

I also remember when Kareem broke Wilt Chamberlain's scoring record. Wilt was there but he stole the moment by showing up in a tight tank top which was meant to show everyone that he was still bigger and stronger than Kareem. He also gave Kareem a half-ass congratulatory speech.

If Aaron showed up, I am sure he wouldn't go out of his way to show Bonds up. But if his heart isn't in it, why go through the motions just to please others.

[Robin Yount]

Hank Aaron's true self is coming out in this whole thing. He is showing himself to be the uneducated Alabama redneck that he is. All respect I had for him is gone. He could have taken the high road and shown he was a better person by at least acknowledging the incredible feat by Bonds. Instead he looks like a moron and idiot by taking this stance. I guess he doesnt like the fact that Barry is a better baseball player. Barry gets a bum rap from so many out there and no doubt in some cases it is race related veiled with the steroids thing. Hammerin' Hank is now a loser in my eyes and his record is history soon. I long for the day that AROD shatters his RBI and other marks so Aaron is bumped right out of the record books.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Hank Aaron's true self is coming out in this whole thing. He is showing himself to be the uneducated Alabama redneck that he is. All respect I had for him is gone. He could have taken the high road and shown he was a better person by at least acknowledging the incredible feat by Bonds. Instead he looks like a moron and idiot by taking this stance. I guess he doesnt like the fact that Barry is a better baseball player. Barry gets a bum rap from so many out there and no doubt in some cases it is race related veiled with the steroids thing. Hammerin' Hank is now a loser in my eyes and his record is history soon. I long for the day that AROD shatters his RBI and other marks so Aaron is bumped right out of the record books.

I'm starting to wonder if you actually believe this stuff you're saying right now, or if you're just being an extreme parody for comedic effect.

Be that as it may, thank you very much for calling me a moron and an idiot too, because I happen to support Aaron's stance.

Obviously, you understand that if Aaron attends the game in which Bonds hits #756, that will be an implication of support and acknowledgement. But what I don't think you understand is that if Aaron goes to the game, he'll be seen as supporting a cheater by most people, and that could be damaging to his own credibility. At worst, Aaron is trying to save face. At best, he's taking the high road and not supporting an alleged cheater.

[Ubiquitous]

At worst, Aaron is trying to save face. At best, he's taking the high road and not supporting an alleged cheater.

Well no that isn't the at worst scenario. At worst he is a guy who cares deeply about his record and doesn't want to see it taken away from him regardless of who does it. This whole thing could be because of steroid or this whole could not be about steroids. A lot of people are simply projecting their own opinions onto Hank Aaron. He provides an easy target since he hasn't said why, so we can say why for him.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well no that isn't the at worst scenario. At worst he is a guy who cares deeply about his record and doesn't want to see it taken away from him regardless of who does it. This whole thing could be because of steroid or this whole could not be about steroids. A lot of people are simply projecting their own opinions onto Hank Aaron. He provides an easy target since he hasn't said why, so we can say why for him.

And I think he has a right to not say why.

[Seattle1]

I'm happy he has taken a stand against Barry by announcing he will not be in attendance when Barry beats his record, the line is drawn.

Way to go Hank Aaron!

:clapping

Check out these two photos:

[west coast orange and black]

aaron expressed support and acknowledgement towards bonds after bonds hit 73. aaron continued to speak highly of bonds and his achievements... until it became clear that 755 was on assault.

i do not believe that aaron is trying to save face. i believe that he still wishes that 755 was not being threatened. also, aaron did an about-face regarding answering question concerning drugs in the game.

he wants to relax. nothin' wrong with that.

[SamtheBravesFan]

aaron expressed support and acknowledgement towards bonds after bonds hit 73. aaron continued to speak highly of bonds and his achievements... until it became clear that 755 was on assault.

i do not believe that aaron is trying to save face. i believe that he still wishes that 755 was not being threatened. also, aaron did an about-face regarding answering question concerning drugs in the game.

he wants to relax. nothin' wrong with that.

I don't really think he's doing that. I just said that was the worst thing he could be doing.