AL Draft Opinion Championship!

[Minstrel]

Okay, the three days have passed on the discussion/argumentation aspect, so let's proceed to the polling, which will determine one half of the split-championship.

I'll provide links below for each team's rosters. If you want to vote but are unfamiliar with the teams, look through them.

This thread can be used for further discussion as the poll goes on. I'll have the poll close in one week. In the meantime, feel free to campaign for your team. Get them the respect that you feel they deserve. ;)

Remember, these are all teams in one league, fighting through a full season to reach the playoffs and then the best playing each other for the pennant. Consider offense, fielding, starting pitching and relief pitching with the weightings that you think each carries for ultimate success in real life.

Wee Willie (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=816748&postcount=5)
AlecBoy006 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=830436&postcount=15)
Erik Bedard (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=817078&postcount=6)
Disgruntaledmarinerfan (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=820243&postcount=12)
Minstrel (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=816739&postcount=2)
yanks0714 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=817471&postcount=9)
ChrisLDuncan (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=822930&postcount=14)
Westlake (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=816745&postcount=4)
-Kyle- (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=822837&postcount=13)
BoSox Rule (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=817135&postcount=7)
Wade8813 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=816741&postcount=3)
538280 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=817282&postcount=8)
Huntington Avenue (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=818419&postcount=10)
ronnie5 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=818556&postcount=11)

[USAF1]

I voted for Westlake based on the overall makeup of his team.

The first thing i look for when evaluating a teams talent/chances is the starting rotation. And nobody has one close to Westlakes. 4 LH arms and a rotation of Koufax, Feller, Carlton, Spahn and Ford is incredible, especially considering the # of teams.

The bullpen isnt the best, but its a top tier group.

The lineup is probably overall middle of the pack but its hard to argue with a 3/4 DiMaggio/Williams combo. Robinson will get on base plenty while stealing a bunch of bags, and Sisler will put the ball in play damn near every at bat and get his share of hits.

This isnt the clear cut team, but based on having the best rotation and top tier bullpen with a very solid lineup id have a hard time betting against them.

[Wade8813]

Are we supposed to vote for someone other than ourselves? (I'm not saying I would vote for myself, I just want to clarify it. Then again, I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for myself... :laugh )

Westlake certainly has a strong rotation but I wouldn't say it's the best. Lefty starters can be handy, but I think you're overrating them.

[-Kyle-]

I voted myself out of pure bias. It definitly took me a long time to pick. :think:

[538280]

Updated chart:

Team BA OBP SLG OPS+ EqA FRAA WARP1 ERA+
Kyle------ 0.336 0.442 0.589 179.2 0.35 63 106 168.2
Wee Willie 0.317 0.435 0.59 177.4 0.348 26 99.4 173.8
Wade8813 0.326 0.409 0.596 171.1 0.341 -40 83.2 178.8
538280---- 0.324 0.418 0.573 168 0.339 -13 94.7 175.8
Minstrel 0.321 0.418 0.568 166.8 0.335 49 95.9 171.2
Westlake 0.341 0.422 0.562 166.5 0.339 18 91.9 165.8
Ronnie5--- 0.32 0.415 0.566 165.4 0.338 33 96.3 171.2
DMF------ 0.336 0.417 0.56 164.5 0.337 -7 88.4 171.6
Yanks0714 0.312 0.399 0.546 155.6 0.327 47 97.6 137
ChrisLDuncan 0.33 0.396 0.547 155 0.321 66 88 164.8
Erik Bedard 0.305 0.393 0.55 154.8 0.321 0 84.4 150.4
BoSox Rule 0.318 0.414 0.513 151.8 0.324 84 97.3 163.8
Huntington Av. 0.3 0.383 0.54 149.3 0.319 63 97.3 142.4
AlecBoy006 0.299 0.38 0.506 139.9 0.308 64 82.8 136.2


WARP1 is a new category, the sum of your position players' WARP1.

Judge for yourself. My team has the 4th best OPS+ but also has a higher ERA+ than any team above it except Wade, and Wade's team's fielding is a real concern, not that mine is great but it's better than his.

[USAF1]

Wow, i didnt think Westlakes Team BA was that good. Add that to his great pitching staff and that further validates my vote for him....IMO

[Huntington Avenue]

Wow. I found it baffling that Wade8813's team is so low and mine is so high...perhaps that was not the stat to use? There's not a great correlation between EqA or OPS and WARP1.

Voted for Wade8813, after seeing his rotation coupled with a nearly impossible lineup. I think he's the favorite to win the most games, though fielding could potentially pose a problem.

[Minstrel]

My team is basically without weakness. It's essentially tied for fourth-best in team ERA+, tied for fifth in team OPS+ and sixth in team fielding. In a fourteen team league, that's pretty excellent strength all-around.

[-Kyle-]

Updated chart:

Team BA OBP SLG OPS+ EqA FRAA WARP1 ERA+
Kyle------ 0.336 0.442 0.589 179.2 0.35 63 106 168.2
Wee Willie 0.317 0.435 0.59 177.4 0.348 26 99.4 173.8
Wade8813 0.326 0.409 0.596 171.1 0.341 -40 83.2 178.8
538280---- 0.324 0.418 0.573 168 0.339 -13 94.7 175.8
Minstrel 0.321 0.418 0.568 166.8 0.335 49 95.9 171.2
Westlake 0.341 0.422 0.562 166.5 0.339 18 91.9 165.8
Ronnie5--- 0.32 0.415 0.566 165.4 0.338 33 96.3 159.6
DMF------ 0.336 0.417 0.56 164.5 0.337 -7 88.4 171.6
Yanks0714 0.312 0.399 0.546 155.6 0.327 47 97.6 137
ChrisLDuncan 0.33 0.396 0.547 155 0.321 66 88 164.8
Erik Bedard 0.305 0.393 0.55 154.8 0.321 0 84.4 150.4
BoSox Rule 0.318 0.414 0.513 151.8 0.324 84 97.3 163.8
Huntington Av. 0.3 0.383 0.54 149.3 0.319 63 97.3 142.4
AlecBoy006 0.299 0.38 0.506 139.9 0.308 64 82.8 136.2




Holy Moses, I didn't think my OBP was that good. Must be the Bonds Effect. :party: I am also surprised my D is one FRAA behind Alecboy's.

[538280]

Wow, i didnt think Westlakes Team BA was that good. Add that to his great pitching staff and that further validates my vote for him....IMO

Westlake has a lower OPS+ and ERA+ than me. His offense isn't as good, despite that high BA (my team hit for more power and got on base more), and despite you thinking his rotation is so good my team has an ERA+ 10 points better. My fielding isn't as good, but WARP1, which takes into account hitting and fielding, still has my team higher, so the fielding probably isn't enough to make up for the hitting.

[538280]

Wow. I found it baffling that Wade8813's team is so low and mine is so high...perhaps that was not the stat to use? There's not a great correlation between EqA or OPS and WARP1.

Voted for Wade8813, after seeing his rotation coupled with a nearly impossible lineup. I think he's the favorite to win the most games, though fielding could potentially pose a problem.

WARP1 takes into account everything a player does. WARP1 isn't kind to Wade's players because it essentially sees most of them as well below average fielders. The exact opposite happens with your team.

[-Kyle-]

WARP1 takes into account everything a player does. WARP1 isn't kind to Wade's players because it essentially sees most of them as well below average fielders. The exact opposite happens with your team.

But this isn't total value, Wade's player's might have better rate stats in less games, and I think rates are what are put into the sim, amount games (value) don't matter.

[538280]

My team is basically without weakness. It's essentially tied for fourth-best in team ERA+, tied for fifth in team OPS+ and sixth in team fielding. In a fourteen team league, that's pretty excellent strength all-around.

.....or I could say you're just mediocre and average all around. :laugh

[538280]

But this isn't total value, Wade's player's might have better rate stats in less games, and I think rates are what are put into the sim, amount games (value) don't matter.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. You're right that's also hurting Wade's WARP1 number.

[Minstrel]

.....or I could say you're just mediocre and average all around. :laugh

Hardly...top-third in offense and pitching and average in fielding. Virtually everyone ahead of me in both offense and pitching (which is three people) is either crap in fielding (you and Wade ;) ) or significantly behind me in fielding (Wee Willie).

I think I might well have the best all-around team. While fielding isn't as important as pitching and hitting, no one's way ahead of me in pitching and the two people way ahead of me in hitting are either behind me in pitching (-Kyle-) or very close to me in pitching (Wee Willie). I think my fielding can close the gap. Wee Willie, I think is my main challenger.

[-Kyle-]

I think I might well have the best all-around team. While fielding isn't as important as pitching and hitting, no one's way ahead of me in pitching and the two people way ahead of me in hitting are either behind me in pitching (-Kyle-) or very close to me in pitching (Wee Willie). I think my fielding can close the gap. Wee Willie, I think is my main challenger.

Wait...

I am 13 points above you in offense,

14 of (whatever) in D

and 3 points of pitching behind you

and (if it matters) 10 points above in WARP1

?


WW is better than mine (probably), anyone else I think I have a case against.

[USAF1]

Westlake has a lower OPS+ and ERA+ than me. His offense isn't as good, despite that high BA (my team hit for more power and got on base more), and despite you thinking his rotation is so good my team has an ERA+ 10 points better. My fielding isn't as good, but WARP1, which takes into account hitting and fielding, still has my team higher, so the fielding probably isn't enough to make up for the hitting.

Actually Westlake has a better OBP and ill take a team with a better Team BA and OBP then one with more slugging power.

Another factor i take into account and its a large one is how players faired in postseason play. When you look at Westlake's team both his rotation (esp) and lineup he's as good as anyone and better then most.

[Minstrel]

Wait...

I am 13 points above you in offense,

14 of (whatever) in D

and 3 points of pitching behind you

and (if it matters) 10 points above in WARP1

?


WW is better than mine (probably), anyone else I think I have a case against.

That's true. I was looking at the people above me in both hitting and pitching when I considered fielding. So I overlooked you, since you weren't ahead of me in both.

[Minstrel]

Another factor i take into account and its a large one is how players faired in postseason play.

IMO, that's not a useful metric. Post-season play is a small sample size, easily distorted by going through a slump or streak over those games. Players don't choose when to slump or streak...if they could prevent slumps, they'd prevent them all the time. But all players go through them. It's random distribution as to when they happen.

[USAF1]

Oh i agree for the most part, especially when regarding hitters.

However, look at a guy like A-Rod. He will finish his career likely as the greatest hitter of all-time (he has a real shot at 800+ HR's he'll have over 3000 hits, 2000 rbi's).

However come playoff time, while hes not terrible, there is a noticable decline in stats. I value whether a player carries over his stellar play to the postseason. Can you count on a guy who puts up big #'s over the course of the year to do so when it matters most.

Pitching is a different story though. IMO if you take two very similar regular season pitchers but one has a much better track record in the playoffs, ill take that guy all day long. Again, i dont really belive in the slump factor when a guy who throws lights out most/all year turns around and bombs when its crunch time .

Just my .02 cents though....

[Minstrel]

However, look at a guy like A-Rod. He will finish his career likely as the greatest hitter of all-time (he has a real shot at 800+ HR's he'll have over 3000 hits, 2000 rbi's).

However come playoff time, while hes not terrible, there is a noticable decline in stats.

Only recently. His numbers with Seattle and then his first season with the Yankees were excellent in the post-season. The last two years, he's been terrible. So, again, I wouldn't say it's a systematic problem...just that small sample sizes are affected a lot by each series.

Pitching is a different story though. IMO if you take two very similar regular season pitchers but one has a much better track record in the playoffs, ill take that guy all day long. Again, i dont really belive in the slump factor when a guy who throws lights out most/all year turns around and bombs when its crunch time .

Do you not believe that pitchers can slump, or that they can't in the post-season? Chris Carpenter slumped in September last year before turning in a pretty good post-season. Randy Johnson had some tough post-seasons, before turning in one of the most dominating post-seasons ever. Just as with batters, I don't think pitchers control when their stuff is a little off.

[USAF1]

I'm a firm believer in slumps but i think a player controls that more than he doesnt. In the regular season not so much because of the length but in postseason play i think nerves and the "choke" factor are serious reasons for decline in play.

There is the long standing debate on whether there is such thing as "being clutch" or just being lucky. I stand firmly on the clutch side. Barry Bonds has unreal numbers but outside of the WS performance vs the Angles he's been horrible. Now dont get me wrong, id still take Barry over most players in the history of the game but only because he is honestly that good. Players that are on the next tier but similar in statistics will be put into two catagories for me. Guys who carry success over to the playoffs and those who dont....

[Minstrel]

I'm a firm believer in slumps but i think a player controls that more than he doesnt. In the regular season not so much because of the length but in postseason play i think nerves and the "choke" factor are serious reasons for decline in play.

I don't think that bears up logically. While I agree that people can choke due to nerves in the general population, professional athletes are a population picked, implicitly and explicitly, for their ability to handle pressure. They go through pressure-filled situations from high school onwards. If they couldn't handle the pressure, they wouldn't be one of the very, very select few that makes the major leagues. In the major leagues, you basically have a a league of players who have been through the fires and handled them well. Therefore, I don't think nerves are a significant factor at that level.

There is the long standing debate on whether there is such thing as "being clutch" or just being lucky. I stand firmly on the clutch side. Barry Bonds has unreal numbers but outside of the WS performance vs the Angles he's been horrible.

Bonds was awesome all throughout that post-season. However, the "clutch theory" has been tested, and it really doesn't stand up. The players who overperform / underperform the most in close-and-late or RISP situations change completely from one season to the next and that a player who overperforms hugely with RISP (or close-and-late) may underperform hugely the next season in the same situations. This strongly suggests that "clutch" and "choking" are not skills or abilities, because they have no real repeatability.

Playoff performance is hard to test, because many players don't get enough opportunities to overcome a few bad performances that could just be a small sample size effect. But those who do, really don't show repeatability. Bonds was called a post-season choker, then had one of the great post-seasons of all-time. Ditto Randy Johnson. Alex Rodriguez is called one despite having had multiple great performances. Reggie Jackson is hailed as a super-clutch playoff performance, but his playoff numbers are basically fueled by a few series where he was Babe Ruth. He had other series where he was miserable.

I don't think the logic or the evidence really supports the concept of "clutch." To me, it's just a nice idea that allows people to add nobility of character to playoff heroes and deficiency of character to those who don't do well. It's not as interesting a story to say that, given a large enough sample size, players generally tend towards their mean performances and huge/horrible playoff performances aren't evidence of a magical quality but rather just the fickleness of small sample sizes.

That's my take, anyway.

[Wade8813]

I'm not going to argue that fielding is a bit of a weak spot for my team, but I'm fairly sure it isn't as bad as it seems. Most everyone seems to agree that Hornsby is very underrated by FRAA.

Also, I'm starting to doubt FRAA more and more. Sure, any system will have flaws, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that while doing the Franchise Draft, I noticed Griffey has pretty bad FRAA, even in his best years. Everything I've heard or seen rates Griffey as a great fielder.

[-Kyle-]

I'm not going to argue that fielding is a bit of a weak spot for my team, but I'm fairly sure it isn't as bad as it seems. Most everyone seems to agree that Hornsby is very underrated by FRAA.

Also, I'm starting to doubt FRAA more and more. Sure, any system will have flaws, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that while doing the Franchise Draft, I noticed Griffey has pretty bad FRAA, even in his best years. Everything I've heard or seen rates Griffey as a great fielder.

Its has Duke Snider as a -17 but as long as it lowers you I am fine...:laugh

[Westlake]

Westlake has a lower OPS+ and ERA+ than me. His offense isn't as good, despite that high BA (my team hit for more power and got on base more), and despite you thinking his rotation is so good my team has an ERA+ 10 points better. My fielding isn't as good, but WARP1, which takes into account hitting and fielding, still has my team higher, so the fielding probably isn't enough to make up for the hitting.

I was unaware this vote was based soley on the one season that was to be used for the sim.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I was unaware this vote was based soley on the one season that was to be used for the sim.

Yeah I'll have to second that...Chris' team may be better for the team; but I'll take Evan's team overall. For the opinion thread I'll decide not just on the season but on who has, IMO, the best team.


Here's what your team features Chris:

Western Mass. Rocketeers

Starting Lineup
C-Mike Piazza 1996 .342/.431/.553 R
1B-Lou Gehrig 1930 .346/.448/.677 L
2B-Bobby Grich 1976 .283/.400/.475 R
SS-Ernie Banks 1958 .311/.366/.589 R
3B-Dick Allen 1966 .317/.411/.634 R
LF-Gary Sheffield 2003 .330/.418/.568 R
CF-Billy Hamilton 1891 .343/.449/.470 L
RF-Elmer Flick 1900 .340/.426/.578 L
DH-Boog Powell 1964 .300/.413/.611 L

Bench
1B/3B-Darrell Evans 1983 .282/.386/.536 L
UT-Tony Phillips 1991 .288/.377/.441 S
OF-Eric Davis 1989 .290/.378/.565 R

Pitching Rotation
SP-Roger Clemens 1990 R
SP-Dazzy Vance 1930 R
SP-Kevin Brown 2000 R
SP-Amos Rusie 1897 R
SP-Lefty Gomez 1931 L

Bullpen
RP-Hoyt Wilhelm 1954 R
RP-John Franco 1985 L
RP-Jeff Montgomery 1992 R
RP-Kent Mercker 2003 L

That's a pretty solid team with players that each had awesome years...however here's Evan's team


Lineup

C - Ray Schalk
1B - George Sisler
2B - Jackie Robinson
3B - Frank 'Home Run' Baker
SS - Nomar Garciaparra
LF - Ted Williams
CF - Joe DiMaggio
RF - Carl Yastrzemski
DH - Dan Brouthers


Bench

SS Rabbit Maranville
3B Pie Traynor
OF Ritchie Ashburn
C Buck Ewing


Rotation

LHP Sandy Koufax
RHP Bob Feller
LHP Steve Carlton
LHP Warren Spahn
LHP Whitey Ford

Spot Starter - RHP Carl Mays


Bullpen

RHP Rich Gossage
RHP Rollie Fingers
LHP Tug McGraw
LHP Jesse Orosco
LHP Tom Burgmeier
RHP Roberto Hernandez


I'd say that Chris has the advantage at Catcher, Ace, and First Basemen...other than that I like Evans team more. His OF features three top 40 players of all time, and his INF I would say on the whole is better than yours. I will also take his rotation over yours as well, and I'd say the bullpen is a tossup.

[538280]

I'm not going to argue that fielding is a bit of a weak spot for my team, but I'm fairly sure it isn't as bad as it seems. Most everyone seems to agree that Hornsby is very underrated by FRAA.

Who is that? The other main defensive metric is defensive Win Shares. Hornsby had 3.05 per 1000 innings over his career. The average 2Bman has 3.53. I've heard arguments before about how Hornsby was supposed to be a great fielder, they mostly are about his raw assist and putout totals. Would you trust raw statistics, not adjusted for things like the tendencies of the staff and double play opportunities, or ones that ARE adjusted for those things in logical ways?

Also, I'm starting to doubt FRAA more and more. Sure, any system will have flaws, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that while doing the Franchise Draft, I noticed Griffey has pretty bad FRAA, even in his best years. Everything I've heard or seen rates Griffey as a great fielder.

FRAA is probably more accurate over a career than over a season, I would agree with that. Griffey is a player where there is a disconnect between observation and statistics. Griffey was an A- OFer (not CFers, compared to all OFers), through 2001 but has pretty awful since. FRAA and SABR Matt's PCA both have him as a very mediocre fielder. I think that the obeservation should count for something, he won 10 GGs, but I also think we should bring him down at least somewhat because statistics have not been able to confirm his defensvie greatness.

[Westlake]

Who is that?


There are plenty of us, Chris. You saw it in the Hornsby thread.

[ronnie5]

538280, I think you got my staff ERA+ wrong in the new chart. Can you correct it? In the original chart, you had me at 171.2, which is correct, and now you have me at 159.6. My starting five's ERA+...

Walter Johnson, 1918- 214 ERA+
Orel Hershiser, 1985- 172 ERA+
Brandon Webb, 2003- 165 ERA+
Sam McDowell, 1968- 163 ERA+
Tom Glavine, 1997- 142 ERA+

That averages out to 171.2. Thanks in advance.

[Wade8813]

I voted for myself, but I think I actually have a good shot at being the best team. If I couldn't vote for myself, I think I'd vote for Wee Willie, although I'd want to look into it more before committing.

[538280]

538280, I think you got my staff ERA+ wrong in the new chart. Can you correct it? In the original chart, you had me at 171.2, which is correct, and now you have me at 159.6. My starting five's ERA+...

Walter Johnson, 1918- 214 ERA+
Orel Hershiser, 1985- 172 ERA+
Brandon Webb, 2003- 165 ERA+
Sam McDowell, 1968- 163 ERA+
Tom Glavine, 1997- 142 ERA+

That averages out to 171.2. Thanks in advance.

I'll change it and sorry about that. I may have made some other mistakes, so, feel free to check me if you think I made a mistake.

Also, we need more voters. I think it would be a good idea if we make a thread in the history forum notifying people about this thread and saying they should vote.

[The Splendid Splinter]

you guys really shouldve not been able to vote for your own team... I think it's kinda silly since almost everyone would vote for their own team. That's just my opinion.

As for who I'm voting... I'm still undecided and I've been looking over the teams 2 days ago. It's pretty hard, but I got it down to like 4 or 5 teams now. I'll make my decision by tonight and I'll give my reasoning for it.

I'm still waiting for the NL draft to get over. I've been done for 3 rounds now and TFAM just finished not too long ago too so we're the only 2 teams finished in the NL. I don't think I will do good on the voting cuz I don't have the flashy names and plus, this is the team I would want if I was an owner and had to make an all time team so it totally was just for my entertainment and getting the team I envision having with the stadium I wanted. You have to think about my team really.

[Westlake]

you guys really shouldve not been able to vote for your own team... I think it's kinda silly since almost everyone would vote for their own team. That's just my opinion.


Agreed. I think everyone shouldn't be allowed to vote for their best team, but oh well, it's really no biggie. I think that Ronnie and I have the best teams, and really could pick one over the other. He has a tremendous infield and DH, and some really great pitching at the top of his rotation. IMO, I have the best outfield and rotation. It's really close to me, a virtual tie. But in the interest of what i've stated above in voting for your own team, I voted for Ronnie's.

[ronnie5]

I agree with Evan, I think our two teams rate really well for the vote. My infield is the best of any team IMO, and my team defense is pretty solid. My starting lineup averages 29.33 steals per man, so that will be a huge help when trying to manufacture runs. As for my rotation, I can't say anything about Walter Johnson that hasn't been said before, and Hershiser, Webb, McDowell and Glavine are no sticks in the mud either. My bullpen is pretty nasty as well.

As for Evan's team, he has an impossible outfield, great rotation, and deep bullpen. I voted for him.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah my vote I guess would have to go to Ronnie's...his OF isn't as strong as Evan's is...but his INF is sickening.

[Colorado Express]

Here's my rankings -
1. Wade
2. Westlake
3. Wee Willie
4. Kyle

[Wee Willie]

Looks like Chris (538280), Yanks0714, Disgruntledmarinerfan, and AlecBoy are still yet to vote among our group.

[The Splendid Splinter]

Here's my rankings... this is my own opinion so don't get mad at me please.


1. Wade 8813
2. Westlake
3. Ronnie5
4. Minstrel
5. Wee Willie
6. Erik Bedard
7. 538280
8. ChrisLDuncan
9. -Kyle-
10. yanks0714
11. BoSox Rule
12. Huntington Avenue
13. Disgruntaledmarinerfan
14. AlecBoy

[tearforamariner]

Looks like Chris (538280), Yanks0714, Disgruntledmarinerfan, and AlecBoy are still yet to vote among our group.

AlecBoy cannot vote, since he has been banned.

[-Kyle-]

AlecBoy cannot vote, since he has been banned.

:( Forever?

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

there are a few teams that stand out in my mind as best.
But, there is One that IMO stands alone as best, I give my vote to Wade.

[Erik Bedard]

I think sixth may be a little high for my team... I'd put them around eighth or ninth. I drafted mostly off names, and as a result, I completely blew my first-round pick and took Mays over Williams, Bonds, and anyone but Ruth.