Just got my epstein DVD - is it returnable?

[Swing Coach]

Wow,

I ordered the epstein DVD for the fun of it -- thought maybe I could learn a thing or two...and I have never been so disappointed. He teaches a "weight shift rearward" so the "weight is felt on the inside of the back leg thigh" during the swing. Every MLB swing I look at, there is a massive weight shift forward into that blocked front leg -- so much so that the back foot comes up off the ground or to its tip. No way is their weight shift rearward, unless the pros know how to levatate that back foot on thin air.

The only thing to learn from this DVD is that the MLB swing is a rotation, which I already knew. And that, my friends is not worth $50.

[callyjr]

none of my students seem to have a problem getting off there back side. those are drills to get the students into the correct positions, once they learn the correct positions the weight does not remain on the back side.

cally
Epstein Instructor

[Mark H]

What about tilt over toward the plate? Anything about that?

[Swing Coach]

There is no mention of shifting weight in the entire $59 dvd. It only talks about (and shows) a "weight shift rearward" a rotation in which you "feel the weight on the inside of the back leg" and "squishing the bug is the result of the swing."

It is very clear that he is teaching to keep the weight back through the entire swing.

Every example illustrates those principles. I just watched it.

[Swing Coach]

What about tilt over toward the plate? Anything about that?


He specifically says to tilt back as the knee hinges, and his sample kid does clearly tilts his shoulders to get a bat angle in line with the pitch.

[steve R]

Try learning the drills and you will see it work. you can not just read it you need to to it to understand it. Go to mike epstein hitting (just google mike epstein) and I know he will be more then willing to discuss your concerns. Don't be so fast to judge.

Thanks

[Mark H]

"He specifically says to tilt back as the knee hinges, and his sample kid does clearly tilts his shoulders to get a bat angle in line with the pitch.
Yes, but what about this tilt? I don't see Mike's drills addressing this tilt over the plate at launch or at anytime. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=3&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Lots of discussion on here and on eteamz with people's personal experience with Epstein's stuff.

[steve R]

Disission is good because hopefully we are all learning . What scares me is when someone thinks they know it all. Mark as far as tilting over the plate I see it in some but not all. What do you think?

Thanks

[Mark H]

Depends on pitch location more than anything though some tend to do it less and be high ball hitters.

[Swing Coach]

Regarding tilting the shoulders, he does not teach this. He simply teaches the hitter to start with his hands chest high, back elbow tucked down at the side (elbow up is a big NO to him), hinge the back knee and tilt back -- the result of this shows his hitter tilting the shoulders. His quote is, ""tilts back, lead elbow works up and back elbow works down."

Here is another quote from the video, "want the player to learn how to sit on his back leg" ANd every sample of the swing on the entire DVD shows the hitter doing this throughout the swing.

I have no pre-judgment against Epstein hitting - I bought the DVD to learn more about the MLB swing...but I'm seeing a VERY incomplete version here, that does not emulate the MLB swing...and this is what he is selling to the masses. If you don't agree with this post then you aren't agreeing with the Epstein philosophy on his main DVD.

[steve R]

Although i am not a fan of Bonds there is no better swing out there that I can see . He (to me) tilts very little but does lower his body to get on plane with the pitch. What do you think?

[steve R]

Swingcoach,

I really think you should discuss your concerns with mike on his discussion board. I know he could better then me address your concerns but I have had great success with his method

Thanks

The Bonds thing was for Mark H

[steve R]

Hi SwingCoach,

I know you read the elbow up thing wrong because Mike would consider that a style not a technique.

Thanks

[steve R]

Hi Coach –
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, people have told me about the GQ article.

Since I made the information on rotational hitting “public” in 2000, many have re-packaged the information and used it as their own. I am somewhat amazed at the lack of respect in baseball for an individual’s intellectual knowledge. In medicine, if a doctor makes public a new heart bypass procedure, it becomes known as the “Smith Procedure.” If a scientist, the “Smith Discovery.” Why doesn’t baseball recognize the same intellect?

I have always given credit to my mentor, Ted Williams, for advocating “The hips lead the way, Swing level to the ball, and Stay inside the ball.” I take no credit for this vital information. Nor did Ted. In fact. If he didn’t take the time to point me in the right direction 25 years ago, today I would be just as confused as the next person when it comes to hitting mechanics. He was brilliant and I was very fortunate to be able to interact with his genius.

What do I humbly take credit for is an easy-to-understand program for teaching rotational hitting, something Ted always said couldn’t be done. I received the only Letter of Recommendation for hitting instruction that he ever gave out — ONLY after him seeing first-hand how easy it was to implement the information. He said, “Anyone who can reduce the emulation period for learning from years to days has got my attention.”

You know, prior to my clinic talk at the American Baseball Coaches Association in 2000, very few (no one?) knew:

1. I coined the words “rotational hitting” to separate the technique from linear hitting

2. the vital difference between “style” and “technique”

3. dropping the front heel initiates the hips

4. that a hitter had to “slot” his rear elbow to stay inside the ball
5. that “weathervaning” was the early adjustment hitters make to get on the plane of the pitch

6. that “hinging” the back knee is what keeps the hitter level to the ball

7. the importance of the separation of the upper and lower torsos (“torque”)

8. that watching the ball hit the bat makes no sense because a hitter can’t make any physical changes inside a 10-12 foot area in front of the plate (Carnegie Mellon University study)

9. that to stay inside the ball, a hitter’s hands had to follow his rotating body around its axis

10. the universal launching point for the hands is just below the armpit to maximize leverage and power

11. that hitters maximized their power - and prevented lunging - by hitting AGAINST a stiff front leg

12. that hitters must stay “connected” until extending through the ball at contact

13. that the body must re-posture (tilt) for the swing to be level to the ball

14. about “torque angle”

My website is meant to inform and educate. Anyone can post on my forum. We average more than 3,500 hits on the forum alone each day. As most of you know, there’s a ton of good hitting information here for all to see and read. And people tell me we’re the only hitting instructors that actually put our own students on view for you to better understand rotational hitting and what the hitters go through learning. I don’t keep anything a secret; the information is there for everyone. Ted wanted it that way. Hopefully, he said, for them to give due credit where it is due.

Most of the information one finds on the internet is an outgrowth of what Ted taught me; I simplified it for everyone to understand so they could be better teachers. So what did they do? They became hitting “gurus” on internet forums!

I am very thankful for the recognition in your post. We really work hard at Mike Epstein Hitting to help people get better, both coaches and hitters. The best advice anyone ever gave me was, when it comes to hitting, leave your ego at the door. If this were the case in baseball, all those worthy would get their due respect.

Good luck, continued success, and “get a good pitch to hit!”

- Mike

[Mark H]

Although i am not a fan of Bonds there is no better swing out there that I can see . He (to me) tilts very little but does lower his body to get on plane with the pitch. What do you think?

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds01.mpeg

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds02.mpeg

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=20&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=19&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=21&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

I think he adjusts his degree of tilt over the plate for pitch location.

[steve R]

Hi Mark,

In the number 3 down I see he does tilt alittle but he also lowers his body. In the first one it is just BP and I can't really tell.

Thanks Mark

Steve

[Mark H]

Looks about 45 degrees in some of them to me. This is a big part of hitting mechanics IMO. The body lowering you speak of I think to be part of the loading unloading process. The tilt back toward the catcher varies from player to player.

[steve R]

I guess it just goes to show you that all the teachers of rotational mechanics have valid point and maybe without egos getting in the way there will be a better understanding of these mechanics so the kids can get back to where they never should have left had it not been for the age of linearisum. Is that a word? HA

Steve

[chesspirate]

and maybe without egos getting in the way
LOL! The last handfull of years have proven one "absolute" of online hitting instruction... Everyone lets thier egos get in the way at some point or another, just some much more so than others.

[Mark H]

I guess it just goes to show you that all the teachers of rotational mechanics have valid point and maybe without egos getting in the way there will be a better understanding of these mechanics so the kids can get back to where they never should have left had it not been for the age of linearisum. Is that a word? HA

Steve

Epstein and Mankin came along and spoke out against this nonsense and I give them full credit as pioneers. http://www.champsedge.com/products.html As you can see, in spite of their efforts, the fungus still lives.

I do think Mike needs to re-think his stuff a la Tom House in light of his own saying "do we teach what we see". No way hinging of the back knee adjusts for location for one thing.

[swingbuster]

He specifically says to tilt back as the knee hinges

Some vaild confusion here. The shoulders are tilting as the back knee hinges and the lead leg should have the weight in a finished swing beyond the drills.

What I got that is good to know

The sequence IS hip turn to generate torque 1

Lateral tilt of shoulders to INCREASE X factor 2 and align and release in ONE MOVE

You need to internalize what align and release in one move really does for great hitter's power production

Stay in balance is ...head over belt buckle shift to your NEW BALANCE CENTER such the the lower body axis is vertical until the SHOULDER TILT occurs. IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILL NOT HINGE THE BACK LEG WITH TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON IT AND FALL BACK PREMATURELy AND YES YES YES THAT CAN BE A PROBLEM

The shoulder tilt is UPSTREAM of the elbow position changes LEAD UP and REAR SLOTTING and that is UPSTREAM of flat hands SO

You cannot widen the torque angle 2 , align and fire unless you do that

My advice....calm down about the weight shift and get what he is saying above and when you do it will worth many times the $59.00

AGREE STRONGLY that there is NO REASON you cannot do all of this with better posture over the plate.

I started with Mike ...went around the world and came back to see just how right the core move is. It might take you doing that too..I hope not.

I have given quick lessons many many times( don't recommend) but I can get more batspeed with drop and tilt in 5 minutes than any other way I know and I have done this 13 years. I can almost double that bat speed literally. Angular accleration is physically superior and that is what he creates vs push . So take what you can work with there and move on.

I did the drop and tilt stuff with a girl that worked for me during lunch one day and she hit a ball over the fence off the tee that afternoon at FP pitch practice.. The coaches mouth dropped open; mine too

[Swing Coach]

My motivation is teaching. I am only looking for the best way to teach hitting to young people. I am not a disciple of Epstein and have no bias one way or another. I am only asking about the facts of the DVD, which nobody seems to want to address. Let's say I've got a talented high schooler (getting college letters). Do I teach him to start from a dead stop with his back elbow tucked down against his side, hinge the leg, sit on his back side and let his weight go back and the bug be squished? This is exactly like the dvd teaches!

When you are responding, please keep in mind I have heard quoted on this forum that something like (over 100%) of weight is shifted into that front leg in a MLB swing. Swingbuster says to calm down about the weight shift. Somebody go for it - I bought the dvd to help me teach a high level swing, so feel free to use the quotes from the dvd that I have given previously and teach that high schooler or college player how he can advance to the next level. Maybe the weight shift is overrated????

[Mark H]

I agree with you. There are deficiencies. Having said that, take a hitter with a chop down through the ball lunging swing and Mike's stuff will make a huge difference. No question. Will it result in a ML swing? Well some kids will figure stuff out no matter what. His enforcer drill seems goofy, he needs to teach the tilt over the plate, the reverse weight shift thing bothers me, etc, BUT his stuff will make a big difference with a poor hitter. Since he doesn't teach the tilt over the plate, I think this results in some things like his weather vaning ideas but good for Mike for getting people started in the right direction back in the day away from the goofiness you see in the above link. Wish I'd been at the debate between he and Slaught in Tucson. Pretty good theater I heard. There's an example for you slapper, of two ex pros who think the other is very wrong. Persnally I think Don is closer and has done a better job taking the dictum "do we teach what we see" to the nth degree. Even created some software to help any novice do just that (right view pro) which software I recommend. Don has a problem IMO, with that back arm skipping a rock iniate the swing with elbow dropping thing but I do love the software. Even if you, swing coach, or anyone else completely understands a ML swing and how to teach it, the software is a valuable illustration tool to help your kids "get" what you are trying to teach them.

[Swing Coach]

Seems to me that the bottom line of this discussion and after viewing the dvd and reading posts that this Esptein theory is a first step to take young hitters who are totally disconnected and connect their arms/hands to the body as it rotates. Forget everything else. Just get that kid to that point first. Now he doesn't flail at the ball with his arms with an off balance swing. Perhaps, with that skill mastered - at that point you can begin teaching that kid proper weight shift etc. I could see that progression, but it sure is not described this way in the dvd. It is specifically taught the way I described. But let's agree on one thing, the dvd would not help any advanced hitter in high school or college move to the next level. And it is those hitters I am working with the most.

Perhaps it is what it is - a basic first step learning fix for very disjointed, unskilled hitters. I just wish I would have known it was so limiting when I bought it.

[Mark H]

If Englishbey gets up your way or you get down to Houston, I'm sure you two would enjoy discussing hitting.

[swingbuster]

A bat speed monitor is a good tool for a before and after measuring speed gains

THere is much more than speed at stake but it helps to quantify what is happening

[Swing Coach]

Can you recommend one or two options for a bat speed monitor?

[Mark H]

well Nyman has a great one but good luck getting it.

[Mark H]

If Englishbey gets up your way or you get down to Houston, I'm sure you two would enjoy discussing hitting.

I guess I could have said the public side of his website is free.

[callyjr]

My motivation is teaching. I am only looking for the best way to teach hitting to young people. I am not a disciple of Epstein and have no bias one way or another. I am only asking about the facts of the DVD, which nobody seems to want to address. Let's say I've got a talented high schooler (getting college letters). Do I teach him to start from a dead stop with his back elbow tucked down against his side, hinge the leg, sit on his back side and let his weight go back and the bug be squished? This is exactly like the dvd teaches!

When you are responding, please keep in mind I have heard quoted on this forum that something like (over 100%) of weight is shifted into that front leg in a MLB swing. Swingbuster says to calm down about the weight shift. Somebody go for it - I bought the dvd to help me teach a high level swing, so feel free to use the quotes from the dvd that I have given previously and teach that high schooler or college player how he can advance to the next level. Maybe the weight shift is overrated????


Maybe its not clear enough on the DVD. The purpose is to put the kids in the positions is to take away the old swing. Sure you can start them like there are now, but it will take longer to change them over to the final goal. I do take kids in hischool and rework their entire swing. I have a kid starting Monday that is a Junior and is is the 4 hitter on his Varsity team. Your not gonna leave the kids hands tucked into the side, but you want them to understand the feel of what they need to be doing.
There are a couple little things that Jake and Mike can address, I have spoke with them about it and Jake actually addressed the whole squishing the bug thing with me. Its not the goal to have a kid squish the bug, I have had 1 student in the last 10 that I cannot get her off the back side. For some reason she just cannot make it onto the back toe. I am still working with her though and she will get it before we are done.
The other is the tip and rip as Teach from hittingillistrated would call it. Its not addressed in the Dvd's because its not something you can change in 7 days and thats the basis of the program. I have been able to add it in as of late with some success.
I don't think your gonna get better instruction from a set of dvd's, and the succcess of the program speaks for itself. I think spending a few minutes or hours on his forum would answer a lot of what your looking for. and if that doesn't do it then sign up at http://www.hittingillustrated.com/ and you will earn plenty there.

[Mark H]

Uh, seriously? Epstein has some faults but I give him a LOT more credit than THAT.

[Swing Coach]

You guys are missing my point -- it's all fine if you say the goal is not to squish the bug and get the kids off of the back side...great!....BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DVD IS TEACHING. It is specifically teaching to reverse the weight backward with no other explanation. If you watch the dvd, and did what he says, you would never try to get the kids off the back side.

If you are trying to get kids off the back side, then you are doing the opposite of what the dvd preaches - plain and simple. See my confusion.

Perhaps his clinics go a lot further, but at least objectively admit that this dvd falls way short in instruction.

[swingbuster]

http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/swspra.html

That tool is unbelievable

Resets between swings ........best there is BY FAR

[callyjr]

You guys are missing my point -- it's all fine if you say the goal is not to squish the bug and get the kids off of the back side...great!....BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DVD IS TEACHING. It is specifically teaching to reverse the weight backward with no other explanation. If you watch the dvd, and did what he says, you would never try to get the kids off the back side.

If you are trying to get kids off the back side, then you are doing the opposite of what the dvd preaches - plain and simple. See my confusion.

Perhaps his clinics go a lot further, but at least objectively admit that this dvd falls way short in instruction.

Swing coach,

If you take 5 minutes and email Jake and Mike your concerns it would go a long way i them addressing this in the future. I can assure you once you have taken the kids thru the #'s drill they will not be on the back side any longer.

[ssarge]

If you take 5 minutes and email Jake and Mike your concerns it would go a long way i them addressing this in the future. I can assure you once you have taken the kids thru the #'s drill they will not be on the back side any longer.


How's THAT again? The kids on the CDs do the numbers drill. They are still on their back foot. NOT being on the back foot means being on the toes ballet-like, the foot dragging forward on the toes towards the piitcher, or actually lifting off the ground. THESE are the pattern of elite hitters, almost universally.

Anyway, if you take 5 minutes and look at the videos Epstein himself puts up on his site as representative of good swings, you can save the phone call. Or at least be extremely well armed for it.

Same with the pictures in his book, which is basically a collection of articles he wrote for Collegiate Baseball News, and so hardly geared at beginners. At least when initially written. But EVERY picture is a rear foot hitter.

When you go to his support forum, you'll read that hitters never have the rear foot off the ground, unless it is a high pitch. That doesn;t match up with what I see elite hitters doing. (You"ll also see that it is NOT real time, and is very heavily screened for eMails which are positive or lead to a point Mike wants to make. And I have no problem with that - it's his site. But it ISN'T useful for discussion.)

Amazingly, although Williams was accused of being a rear foot hitter, almost every clip I see of him shows the rear foot off the ground. I don't see that with Epstein students, and I believe there is definitely a weight distribution problem.

It seems to me that there HAS to be. It is useless to hinge the rear knee to set body tilt UNLESS there is weight on the rear leg. Otherwise, it is meaningless - a leg flapping in the wind. Since elite hitters get the mass to the front side BEFORE swing launch (create momentum and set up vertical and horizontal separation between the lower body and the still stretching/loading upper body) - and Epstein describes the tilting of the rear knee as AFTER swing launch - there is obviously a dichotomy here.


Also, the Enforcer drill is horrific in terms of teaching a connected swing. And meaningless anyway when the bat is simply on the deltoid - NOT representative of hand or bat position of a hitter facing actual pitching.


I would echo Mark's comments. The Epstein principles will help most young hitters. Generally, they will improve rapidly, and hit for more power. Possibly stay connected better, too (at least if they ignore the Enforcer drill, and I think most do - this is NOT how to keep hands from casting - a more efficient upper body load accomplishes that. And resting the bat on the deltoid is NOT efficient. This is at best a band-aid.). Depending on their goals, that rapid initial improvement may be enough. But they WILL soon reach a glass ceiling as they face elite pitching.


I also agree that Epstein is a delight to speak with. A true gentleman, sincere, passionate, and incredibly willing to help. So is Jake. And his material on the mental side of hitting is top notch. That DOESN'T make him right about hitting mechanics. Only being right about hitting mechanics does that.

I also know (very well) an Epstein certified instructor, and I believe that Mike can probably do a pretty good job in F2F lessons. I DO believe he knows an elite swing when he sees it. But the CDs ARE a mass market product, and are geared at a pretty low common denominator. That is why he has sold 50,000 of them. Tho that makes the choice of video examples on his site even more noticeable.

Scott

[Erik]

Checkout the Benza radar. I use this and it measures bat tip speed. This is the same radar that is in Jim Dixons book. A guy in Cincinnati bought the writes to it. I like it.










Erik,

[Swing Coach]

Swingbuster,

Does yours read bat speed + ball distance? -- that wasn't clear on your link. Also, do you offer a money back guarantee if unsatisfied? Please tell us more about the product.

[callyjr]

How's THAT again? The kids on the CDs do the numbers drill. They are still on their back foot. NOT being on the back foot means being on the toes ballet-like, the foot dragging forward on the toes towards the piitcher, or actually lifting off the ground. THESE are the pattern of elite hitters, almost universally.

Anyway, if you take 5 minutes and look at the videos Epstein himself puts up on his site as representative of good swings, you can save the phone call. Or at least be extremely well armed for it.

Same with the pictures in his book, which is basically a collection of articles he wrote for Collegiate Baseball News, and so hardly geared at beginners. At least when initially written. But EVERY picture is a rear foot hitter.

When you go to his support forum, you'll read that hitters never have the rear foot off the ground, unless it is a high pitch. That doesn;t match up with what I see elite hitters doing. (You"ll also see that it is NOT real time, and is very heavily screened for eMails which are positive or lead to a point Mike wants to make. And I have no problem with that - it's his site. But it ISN'T useful for discussion.)

Amazingly, although Williams was accused of being a rear foot hitter, almost every clip I see of him shows the rear foot off the ground. I don't see that with Epstein students, and I believe there is definitely a weight distribution problem.

It seems to me that there HAS to be. It is useless to hinge the rear knee to set body tilt UNLESS there is weight on the rear leg. Otherwise, it is meaningless - a leg flapping in the wind. Since elite hitters get the mass to the front side BEFORE swing launch (create momentum and set up vertical and horizontal separation between the lower body and the still stretching/loading upper body) - and Epstein describes the tilting of the rear knee as AFTER swing launch - there is obviously a dichotomy here.


Also, the Enforcer drill is horrific in terms of teaching a connected swing. And meaningless anyway when the bat is simply on the deltoid - NOT representative of hand or bat position of a hitter facing actual pitching.


I would echo Mark's comments. The Epstein principles will help most young hitters. Generally, they will improve rapidly, and hit for more power. Possibly stay connected better, too (at least if they ignore the Enforcer drill, and I think most do - this is NOT how to keep hands from casting - a more efficient upper body load accomplishes that. And resting the bat on the deltoid is NOT efficient. This is at best a band-aid.). Depending on their goals, that rapid initial improvement may be enough. But they WILL soon reach a glass ceiling as they face elite pitching.


I also agree that Epstein is a delight to speak with. A true gentleman, sincere, passionate, and incredibly willing to help. So is Jake. And his material on the mental side of hitting is top notch. That DOESN'T make him right about hitting mechanics. Only being right about hitting mechanics does that.

I also know (very well) an Epstein certified instructor, and I believe that Mike can probably do a pretty good job in F2F lessons. I DO believe he knows an elite swing when he sees it. But the CDs ARE a mass market product, and are geared at a pretty low common denominator. That is why he has sold 50,000 of them. Tho that makes the choice of video examples on his site even more noticeable.

Scott


While I agree that on Epstein's site, a lot of the older pictures show too much weight back he is absolutely right on the creation of separation and torque between the upper and lower body. And, he should go a step further in his teaching and demonstrations to satisfy us hard cores. But, the fact remains, his hitters have great success because they have the underlying core move down and as they then take it to the field they learn to shift weight and create momentum and do the things necessary for success. They are "within the high level pattern".

Compare that to Englishbey PCR which doesn't create separation....in fact says it's not important.....which means they spin. If there is no separtation there can only be two things. Through great amounts of tension they connect the upper and lower body and "spin" as everything moves at once.....or.....they don't have this tension and separation is created at "go", like joof said/showed in his diagram here at BBF, which means at "go" the linkage isn't tight yet and there is slack/slop. Those are the only two options for anyone who doesn't create tight separation in the preswing. And while they may develop momentum and get off the back side, they all spin or suffer from slack. In additon, in the Englishbey model, there is no whip. No cusp. It isn't possbile without separation.

So, you can start with Epstein, learn the high level pattern, and then improve through trial and error in the batters box.....and not have to remake anything.

Or...

You can start Englishbey, learn to spin with momentum, or suffer from slack with momentum....and through your batters box trial and error experience, realize your underlying swing won't cut it. You will realize you need a remake


Also is this the kid your talking about on the DVD being on his back leg. not seeing that for some reason.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/conventional_machine.mov.GIF


cally

[ssarge]

Cally:

Did Tom give you the verbiage for the above response? Certainly sounds familiar. . . .


Yes or no: Epstein SAYS the weight should rest on the inside of the rear leg. . . .

Argue it all you want, it is what he SAYS.


As for the kid - where is the video taken from? The Baseball On Target series? I don't own that. I have the softball On Target series. And I know what THAT shows. Anyway, this kid IS way better than the older kid on the original video (before the DVDs came out). And certainly better than most Epstein choses to include on his site. Still a very inconclusive video, since it is missing most of the frames. But not bad. WHATEVER the video shows when all the frames are in place, the key indicator is this: Those who get the weight off the back side are up on the rear toes ballet-like. The sole of the rear foot never turns at all. The foot simply rolls up onto the toes. Or lifts off the ground. Because it CAN.


Everyone believes in separation, both horizontal and vertical. The devil is in the details. NO problem agreeing to disagree, but believe me, EVERYONE has studied Epstein over the years. Everyone. Many - myself included - were as zealous as you now are. If it is working for you, fantastic. I hope that you never run into the glass ceiling many of us have. But everyone has been there. I worked with 50 hitters - mostly female - over a two year period using Epstein as a model. Good early results, but the methodology proved unworkable - for me - as the pitching became more elite. But regardless, virtually everyone has studied the Epstein materials. Some have moved towards Setpro and Englishbey and gotten great results. I am in that camp. FAR better results than when using Epstein as a model. By results, in my case, I am talking about placing players into college, and last year, 7 of our 8 seniors (ASA 18Gold play) were signed to college teams. 5 out of 8 signed so far this year, with the other three deciding between offers. Plus one verballed as a junior. So I am satisfied with the results, and plan to stay the course. If these hitters are "spinning," they are spinning their way into dramatically price-reduced educations.

Others have moved (from Epstein) in different directions. This is true of some of the guys at Hitting Illustrated. They seem satisfied with results, too, and that's great. But as I know you have encountered through your participation on that site, there are many who don't support Epstein there, either. Anyway, that's your business, not mine.


Again, if it is working and you are getting the results you desire, fantastic. But please don't assume others are unaware of what is taught. Been there, done that.


Please take the last word as you chose. This is such old ground for everyone, there is nothing new to say. Best wishes to you and your hitters. Hope things work out great for them.

Best regards,

Scott

[4for4]

No Scott, I don't think that's Tom. It's from the head HI posse member who's been banned from the Baseball-Fever community. And cally's (mike) just doing his bidding.

And the kid looks typical of an Epstein excessive weight back regressive spinner. Swing Coach nailed it with his description of things very well, as did you. Been there done that. And congratulations to you in helping place all the players you have at the college level, including your own at a top notch D-1 after making the move to Steve Englishbey/Englishbeyhitting.com (http://www.englishbeyhitting.com)

[4for4]

http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/swspra.html

That tool is unbelievable

Resets between swings ........best there is BY FAR

Donny, what other devices have you field tested this one against to come to this conclusion? Or has someone else done the testing and made the findings available for review??

[swingbuster]

Swingbuster,

Does yours read bat speed + ball distance? -- that wasn't clear on your link. Also, do you offer a money back guarantee if unsatisfied? Please tell us more about the product.


I have tested Bat Action, QuickSwing, Swiftstik, Speed Radar


AL Dilz owns it. He is a great person. The product would never be returned. Not one on a 1000 would return that item and that person would have a PayPal return guarantee and just be an OCD buyer that should be on a pound of Prozac. NO unit can measure ball flight. Ball flight is a function of COMPRESSION. Batspeed you can measure. Compression is determined by batspeed plus hitting ball center.

You can email Al..adilz@cinci.rr.com and buy it from him direct....he sells jillions of them and they are worth more than he charges.


AS far as the Estein hitter....I really do not believe that a hand ful of people see the drill get lead leg extension before contact. I don't think a handful of people see that the lateral tilt IS the align and release mechanism that also gets that last x factor stretch. I don't think people get what getting that last widening of the x angle really does in golf and baseball or have ever felt it

If you do and try to make those things happen for a nubie without the working knowledge of Epstein...you might be worse off

It's from the head HI posse member who's been banned from the Baseball-Fever community. And cally's (mike) just doing his bidding.



As for CallyJR being a guy that shoots bullets in other people's knee caps for Richard..... come on.



H-I is founded on OPEN info , uncensored, nobody calling and blessing you out or shooting off emails telling you stuff. It is about stretch and fire mechanics, weight shift that is weight shift, two plane swings and what makes them work. People within H-I disagree and they are still there.

It is about separation/ segmentation/ whip, lateral tilt that IS lateral tilt of the shoulders preceding flat hands and lead leg extension that occurs because the lead leg actually extends.

It has its roots in Mankin, Yeager and Epstein/ Williams and NOT Paul Nyman. Fact not taking a shot at anybodywith that statement....just giving credit to whom we have followed in our model.
I figured out one thing only in my model...that was the lead elbow being behind the belly button at footplant and how it effected LL players....come to think of it I probably read that somewhere else
too.

NOPE..cannot even take credit for that http://www.hittingacademy.com/ohalibrary/picpages/elbowtobellybuttonpics23and24.cfm

I guess I am just a tireless FILTER and certainly no GURU OF ORIGINAL MATERIAL and maybe I can speed your journey or simply point you to what I have applied that really is meaningful for me.

My claim to any knowledge is the mountain of mistakes I have learned from..........

Maybe there are two ways to hit...this is the other way or for some they end up the same inspite of us all. I wish everybody the best as whatever way you chose to hit.....it is just a game

Happy Easter. Act like Christians....................and that goes for me too BTW

[Chris O'Leary]

6. that “hinging” the back knee is what keeps the hitter level to the ball

This is wrong.

Hinging the back knee is the result of the rotation of the hips.

Tilt is what lets the hitter adjust to the height of the ball.

[ssarge]

AS far as the Estein hitter....I really do not believe that a hand ful of people see the drill get lead leg extension before contact. I don't think a handful of people see that the lateral tilt IS the align and release mechanism that also gets that last x factor stretch. I don't think people get what getting that last widening of the x angle really does in golf and baseball or have ever felt it

I'm not sure I can concede these points, Donny, but let's say for a moment that you are right. What does it say for the materials if 50K have been sold, and less than a handful "get it?"

Also, and again, the pitcures and video chosen by the material's author show what they show. I think they are indicative of what he REALLY means. More power to those who can extend additional meaning onto them. But it may be extension beyond author intention.

Regardless, what about the 50,000 who DON'T spend time extending the material?

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Maybe there are two ways to hit...this is the other way or for some they end up the same inspite of us all. I wish everybody the best as whatever way you chose to hit.....it is just a game


Donny:

Happy Easter to you as well.

This in my opinion is the appropriate attitude. And is much appreciated.

Obviously, many of us have attained solid results,or at least claim to have. That is the ONLY real yardstick I put on what I teach - are kids advancing to - and thriving in - the next level of play? IMO, this is ALL that matters, and I respect any methodology or instructor who can attain this result. Those who PROACTIVELY slam others without first having attained reasonably widespread results can't be respected. And while I paint with a broad brush, I also believe that those who chose to associate with such people - WHATEVER the rationale - are making an error in judgment. I have long regreted my own prolonged stay - and rationalization for it - in the Setpro environment. In retrospect, that was inexcusable (for me, at least).

Criticism of perceived deficiency - hopefully with some level of respect still associated - of any hitting system is apporopriate. Especially when it comes up in a thread, and is then responded to. We're all entitled to our opinions. A consistent barrage of criticism leveled against someone - especially as an obvious marketing strategy - is absurd. It also doesn't work very well, and in that, I speak from my vocational life as a professional marketer. What works in marketing is the accentuation of positive results, NOT a constant slam against the competition. No one who truly desires to market a product, service, or idea would ever be so foolish as to use such a strategy (as I know you know, Donny, when you wear your second hat and market your own products in an appropriate and positive way). CLEARLY such action is indicative of a different agenda.

Never too late to change, though.

Anyway, Donny, I appreciate the conciliatory tone, and hope your hitters are having a great season. I also accept the admonition to act in a Christian manner. It's what I want in my life. But I also mildly point out that this doesn't mean one needs to accept a role as a punching bag.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

two plane swings and what makes them work. People within H-I disagree and they are still there.

What percentage of MLB hitters do you believe to be two plane?

[swingbuster]

I'm not sure I can concede these points, Donny, but let's say for a moment that you are right. What does it say for the materials if 50K have been sold, and less than a handful "get it?"

Also, and again, the pitcures and video chosen by the material's author show what they show. I think they are indicative of what he REALLY means. More power to those who can extend additional meaning onto them. But it may be extension beyond author intention.

Regardless, what about the 50,000 who DON'T spend time extending the material?

Your point is valid. I was one of 50K for a time. I did get immediate results in batspeed but things dawned on me more and more. His release move is golden. His loading move lacking for me but he was not teaching loading starting in the deltoid position. he did start the swing BHUT in that position.

OTOH....how many people can grasp " barrel loading outside the helmet" and widen the torque angle smash a ball to the RCF gap as well. How many people can swing a golf club right. Not many with average scores over 90.

There are limits to what you can tell or show to the masses as there are limits to their willingness to spend the time and limits to their ability to apply knowledge even putting a product together looking at a diagram

So I am certain that there are useful things in PCR and in Two Plane swings that most never see and never will outside of a very limited group.

The collaborative internet think tanks will advance knowledge at a never before seen rate....that is the good news

But I also mildly point out that this doesn't mean one needs to accept a role as a punching bag.

Not a common human trait....turning the other cheek



Christ is risen....Christ is risen indeed!

Happy Easter

[ssarge]

Not a common human trait....turning the other cheek

Criticism accepted. I'm sure others are better at this than I. I'm working on it, though.

For me, a big consideration still is where one chooses to associate, Donny.

Best wishes,

Scott

[callyjr]

Cally:

Did Tom give you the verbiage for the above response? Certainly sounds familiar. . . .


Yes or no: Epstein SAYS the weight should rest on the inside of the rear leg. . . .

Argue it all you want, it is what he SAYS.


As for the kid - where is the video taken from? The Baseball On Target series? I don't own that. I have the softball On Target series. And I know what THAT shows. Anyway, this kid IS way better than the older kid on the original video (before the DVDs came out). And certainly better than most Epstein choses to include on his site. Still a very inconclusive video, since it is missing most of the frames. But not bad. WHATEVER the video shows when all the frames are in place, the key indicator is this: Those who get the weight off the back side are up on the rear toes ballet-like. The sole of the rear foot never turns at all. The foot simply rolls up onto the toes. Or lifts off the ground. Because it CAN.


Everyone believes in separation, both horizontal and vertical. The devil is in the details. NO problem agreeing to disagree, but believe me, EVERYONE has studied Epstein over the years. Everyone. Many - myself included - were as zealous as you now are. If it is working for you, fantastic. I hope that you never run into the glass ceiling many of us have. But everyone has been there. I worked with 50 hitters - mostly female - over a two year period using Epstein as a model. Good early results, but the methodology proved unworkable - for me - as the pitching became more elite. But regardless, virtually everyone has studied the Epstein materials. Some have moved towards Setpro and Englishbey and gotten great results. I am in that camp. FAR better results than when using Epstein as a model. By results, in my case, I am talking about placing players into college, and last year, 7 of our 8 seniors (ASA 18Gold play) were signed to college teams. 5 out of 8 signed so far this year, with the other three deciding between offers. Plus one verballed as a junior. So I am satisfied with the results, and plan to stay the course. If these hitters are "spinning," they are spinning their way into dramatically price-reduced educations.

Others have moved (from Epstein) in different directions. This is true of some of the guys at Hitting Illustrated. They seem satisfied with results, too, and that's great. But as I know you have encountered through your participation on that site, there are many who don't support Epstein there, either. Anyway, that's your business, not mine.


Again, if it is working and you are getting the results you desire, fantastic. But please don't assume others are unaware of what is taught. Been there, done that.


Please take the last word as you chose. This is such old ground for everyone, there is nothing new to say. Best wishes to you and your hitters. Hope things work out great for them.

Best regards,

Scott


Tom did not give me any verbage, I have been hanging around long enough.

Epstein wants you to understand the position your body needs to be and yes you will feel the weight on the back while doing the torque drill. That does not mean thats where the weight remains. again I agree that Epstein may need to update the series, but the core of what he teaches will get most hitters into the same positions as the high level player.

With all due respect Scott, We are talking about watching the dvd's vs live training. You have had the opportunity to learn over the years and make adjustments to everything you have seen and read. Put an Englishby student and an Epstein student side by side and only allow them to only use the Dvd's. I wonder how it would turn out. Now lets do the same with you and I training our students. I am going to have them looking like a pro in 7 days and let them back to their team whereas how long will it take for your program to kick in. And lets be real, How hard is it to improve hitting in softball, 90% of the hitters were taught to hit down and slap hit. Any college out there wil be interested in a girl that can hit it over the infield. I just finished with an 8th grader that hit all ground balls last year and now she is hitting the ball all over the field. Hitting some balls as far as 220ft. She will start on the Varsity team next year without question and have no problems getting into a D1 school, plus she is carrying a 4.0 currently.

Happy easter,

cally

back toe? Some get off the back completely, some just roll the toe. Howard is doing it pretty much like the kid on the DVD and so does Bonds.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/RHoward7.gif

[Mark H]

They are "within the high level pattern".

Not really. Their rotation model is flawed, they don't tilt over so they don't load the body other than the twist, they don't know how to create momentum/shift their weight unless they figure it out on their own and given their upright posture they end up looking like a car antenna pulled back and let go like this clip.

Compare that to Englishbey PCR which doesn't create separation....in fact says it's not important.....which means they spin. If there is no separtation there can only be two things. Through great amounts of tension they connect the upper and lower body and "spin" as everything moves at once.....or.....they don't have this tension and separation is created at "go", like joof said/showed in his diagram here at BBF, which means at "go" the linkage isn't tight yet and there is slack/slop. Those are the only two options for anyone who doesn't create tight separation in the preswing. And while they may develop momentum and get off the back side, they all spin or suffer from slack. In additon, in the Englishbey model, there is no whip. No cusp. It isn't possbile without separation.

You would be better off sticking with Epstein rather than spending time on hi.com and accepting what Richard, who is banned here, says about what Englishbey teaches. Epstein is light years ahead of Richard and Tom.





So, you can start with Epstein, learn the high level pattern, and then improve through trial and error in the batters box.....and not have to remake anything.

Or...

You can start Englishbey, learn to spin with momentum, or suffer from slack with momentum....and through your batters box trial and error experience, realize your underlying swing won't cut it. You will realize you need a remake

You KNOW Epstein's system and see the deficiencies. You said as much. You repeat what Richard says about Englishbey's teachings. Maybe your research is incomplete. You think?






"Also is this the kid your talking about on the DVD being on his back leg. not seeing that for some reason.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/conventional_machine.mov.GIF


cally[/QUOTE]

Looks like an upside down pendulum. I see this in Epstein hitters all the time.

[Mark H]

As for CallyJR being a guy that shoots bullets in other people's knee caps for Richard..... come on.

Personally I'm sure he's sincere. I was an Epstein booster at one time myself. Been there done that.



H-I is founded on OPEN info , uncensored, nobody calling and blessing you out or shooting off emails telling you stuff. It is about stretch and fire mechanics, weight shift that is weight shift, two plane swings and what makes them work. People within H-I disagree and they are still there.

It is about separation/ segmentation/ whip, lateral tilt that IS lateral tilt of the shoulders preceding flat hands and lead leg extension that occurs because the lead leg actually extends.

It has its roots in Mankin, Yeager and Epstein/ Williams and NOT Paul Nyman.

What happened to the vaunted swivel? That was the MAIN thing Richard pushed when he opened his website. Don't hear anything about that anymore. As for stretch and fire, old news.






[/QUOTE]

[Mark H]

back toe? Some get off the back completely, some just roll the toe. Howard is doing it pretty much like the kid on the DVD and so does Bonds.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/RHoward7.gif

This swing looks vastly different from the clip of the kid.

[callyjr]

Not really. Their rotation model is flawed, they don't tilt over so they don't load the body other than the twist, they don't know how to create momentum/shift their weight unless they figure it out on their own and given their upright posture they end up looking like a car antenna pulled back and let go like this clip.

show me what you mean by tilt over, give 3 clips explaining this. I think your thinking becasue a ball is in a certain location that a player should do this every time. Its a no teach, it happens with ball location. Is not the seperation between the upper and lower causing the torque? Or do you reli on tilt for your power? Is this the tilt your referring too? How come they are not leaning over the plate? Is it possible it is more of a location of the ball thing.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/griffey3.gif http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/bondsbarry1.gif

[callyjr]

This swing looks vastly different from the clip of the kid.

and your students look like this? Show me. not to many look like this do they. we were looking at the toe not rolling up, lets not confuse the issue. I can pic apart every student you put on here just like you can do to me.

[4for4]

As for CallyJR being a guy that shoots bullets in other people's knee caps for Richard..... come on.

Not in the sense that he's taking marching orders from the banned one. Wasn't my intent to suggest that notwithstanding what I wrote. But to clarify, it’s more about Mike parroting what the banned one says with what appears to be no basis to do so. To my knowledge, he's never seen, talked or interacted with Steve in anyway. So what does he really know about Steve and what he teaches? Fairness dictates an effort to find out. After all, he did implore Swing Coach to get in touch with Mike E. OTOH, I have the Epstein material and put players through the 7-day boot camp. So I have a basis from which to opine on the efficacy of both teaching methods.

Thanks for the info on the radar.

[4for4]

show me what you mean by tilt over, give 3 clips explaining this. I think your thinking becasue a ball is in a certain location that a player should do this every time. Its a no teach, it happens with ball location. Is not the seperation between the upper and lower causing the torque? Or do you reli on tilt for your power? Is this the tilt your referring too? How come they are not leaning over the plate? Is it possible it is more of a location of the ball thing.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/griffey3.gif http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/bondsbarry1.gif

Yes, it is. That's the point of making postural adjustments. All of Epstein's hitters that I've seen are verticall for all pitches and the adjustment is to hinge the rear knee with weight on rear leg to match plane along with weathervaning which is what he teaches on his DVD. That's not what I see in MLB video.

[callyjr]

Not in the sense that he's taking marching orders from the banned one. Wasn't my intent to suggest that notwithstanding what I wrote. But to clarify, it’s more about Mike parroting what the banned one says with what appears to be no basis to do so. To my knowledge, he's never seen, talked or interacted with Steve in anyway. So what does he really know about Steve and what he teaches? Fairness dictates an effort to find out. After all, he did implore Swing Coach to get in touch with Mike E. OTOH, I have the Epstein material and put players through the 7-day boot camp. So I have a basis from which to opine on the efficacy of both teaching methods.

Thanks for the info on the radar.

do yourself a favor and read the countless threads of me argueing with Teacherman. I don't think you will form the same opinions.

[callyjr]

Yes, it is. That's the point of making postural adjustments. All of Epstein's hitters that I've seen are verticall for all pitches and the adjustment is to hinge the rear knee with weight on rear leg to match plane along with weathervaning which is what he teaches on his DVD. That's not what I see in MLB video.


Explain what your referring to then so I understand what your saying.

[4for4]

do yourself a favor and read the countless threads of me argueing with Teacherman. I don't think you will form the same opinions.

I see what you are saying in terms of the banned one not having much (any) tolerance for your opinion and experience. I'm suggesting you avoid doing the same thing until you know what Steve is all about.

[callyjr]

I see what you are saying in terms of the banned one not having much (any) tolerance for your opinion and experience. I'm suggesting you avoid doing the same thing until you know what Steve is all about.

I've done as much research on Steve as possible without spending money on his system. I have made multiple attemps to get access to the website without even 1 email reply. My opinion is that he is a not a good business person and I don't feel his system is as good as Epsteins from a core standpoint. When the ring leader won't take the time to reply to an email then how much can you validate the product.

[4for4]

Explain what your referring to then so I understand what your saying.


I'm saying that the tilting of the spine (butt out) occurs in part as a loading mechanism (creating a large lever/rotational posture as Steve would say) and more or less as you commit to pitch location along with a sitting component. Manny starts up more and falls in where Bonds starts out with a more butt out posture and goes from there. But neither one adjust for pitch location by hinging the rear knee with the weight back.

Here is an example of Pujols:

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/APTorsoTilt2.gif

[4for4]

I've done as much research on Steve as possible without spending money on his system. I have made multiple attemps to get access to the website without even 1 email reply. My opinion is that he is a not a good business person and I don't feel his system is as good as Epsteins from a core standpoint. When the ring leader won't take the time to reply to an email then how much can you validate the product.

Mike, I approved your membership to Steve's site the day you signed-up if memory serves. You haven't logged in since you registered. Check your yahoo email addr and see if the notification is there. Better yet, you can talk to him by phone. Would you like the opportunity?

[callyjr]

Mike, I approved your membership to Steve's site the day you signed-up if memory serves. You haven't logged in since you registered. Check your yahoo email addr and see if the notification is there. Better yet, you can talk to him by phone. Would you like the opportunity?

Could you send another email, I do not have it. At some point I may want to talk to Steve, but right now its not needed.

thanks

[callyjr]

got it,,thanks

[Mark H]

I can pic apart every student you put on here just like you can do to me.

I agree with that and I would never judge an instructor on one or two students and I'm not saying you are not an effective instructor. I'm also not saying this kid is a poor student. In fact, with the exception of the momentum development I would say he's doing an excellent job of executing what's on the Epstein instructional materials.

[Mark H]

show me what you mean by tilt over, give 3 clips explaining this. I think your thinking becasue a ball is in a certain location that a player should do this every time. Its a no teach, it happens with ball location. Is not the seperation between the upper and lower causing the torque? Or do you reli on tilt for your power? Is this the tilt your referring too? How come they are not leaning over the plate? Is it possible it is more of a location of the ball thing.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/griffey3.gif http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/bondsbarry1.gif

The tilt is part of the loading and then part of the location adjustment. As to clips, which of these do not verticallly load and tilt? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=15uau0kjj3.tiger_s

Both of your above clips show the tilt. The first clip comes up out of it during unload to adjust to the high pitch.