10 year old swing...

[ctandc]

Curious I guess.

Here ya go

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/ctandc/th_SWing1_edit.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/ctandc/?action=view&current=SWing1_edit.flv)

[MSandman]

Is it possible to post the swing in another format? I find these youtube/photobucket/etc. sites very difficult to step through swings frame by frame.

If you'd like, if the file's not too big (<10mb), you can even email it to me and I'll convert it for you.

Thanks.

[ctandc]

The file is 15meg

AVI Format.

How else can I post it up?

[Encinitas]

Ctandc I'd convert it to mpg or something. Find Super Converter from erightsoft it will slice and dice about anything.

[ctandc]

Try this

http://home.comcast.net/~ctandc/swing1.avi

You can download it from there.

[Mark H]

I'm guessing this was taken with digital camera rather than camcorder? Looks like a good athlete. If you look at frames 12 and 13 you can see that back elbow sneaking in and the back forearm laying over. This creates a lot of whip and power but it also creates a larger radius swing that takes longer to develop and that lack of quickness from decision to contact will limit him when he comes up against better pitching. Given that he looks like a kid with a good upside, I'd take the trouble to fix this asap.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

Check clip 20 on this link for an illustration. Further digging around this link will get you all the leads you need.

[callyjr]

pretty nice swing,

I wouldn't worry about bat drag to much. The front elbow is straight to the ball, it could jut up more dropping the barrel below the hands a little more. This will get him on the plane of the ball more and fix the bat lag issue as well. He could use a little more load during the stride as well, but all and all good stuff. See below for example of what I mean.

Cally

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/bonds_powerV1.JPG

[Mark H]

pretty nice swing,

I wouldn't worry about bat drag to much.

Why?



The front elbow is straight to the ball, it could jut up more dropping the barrel below the hands a little more. This will get him on the plane of the ball more.


Should he "jut it up more" independent of the upper torso?


and fix the bat lag issue as well. .

Could you elaborate?


He could use a little more load during the stride as well, but all and all good stuff..

Agreed.


See below for example of what I mean..

What specifically should we look at on this pic?

[callyjr]

looking at the front elbow, notice how it is not straight to the ball its still bent and wrapping around the body. You can get your front elbow as high as you want as long as the back elbow stays tucked. The front elbow coming up changes the way the bat comes thru, it doesn't stay back lagging it works down and gets the hands in the correct position early allowing the rest of the mechanics(body) to pull it thru.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Bonds%20vs%20Abreu%205.jpg

[callyjr]

see the difference?

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/10yr%20old.mov

[Mark H]

The relationship I see, in high level of hitters, of the front elbow and arm to the upper torso and shoulders is relatively constant through rotation and as relates to the swing plane. Also, beware of still pics. Better to look at video. Again, I suggest digging through the link I gave.

[Stealth]

callyjr - The front elbow coming up changes the way the bat comes thru, it doesn't stay back lagging it works down and gets the hands in the correct position early allowing the rest of the mechanics(body) to pull it thru.

I agree - great post.

[callyjr]

The relationship I see, in high level of hitters, of the front elbow and arm to the upper torso and shoulders is relatively constant through rotation and as relates to the swing plane. Also, beware of still pics. Better to look at video. Again, I suggest digging through the link I gave.

You have a person that does not use video, so you need to break it down in more simple terms. You cannot always use video, sure I prefer it when talking to someone that knows what to look for, but in this case he is new to video and just needed the basics of what I was trying to say. The link is also great, but again for a novice he won't know what to look for.

Cally

[Mark H]

And my other questions?

[callyjr]

pretty sure I covered what you asked? What did I miss?

[swingbuster]

I might not do anything to that swing if it was representative.

What county did that ball land in?

[Mark H]

Post #8 starting with why you wouldn't worry about the bat drag?

[callyjr]

covered that,

The front elbow coming up changes the way the bat comes thru, it doesn't stay back lagging it works down and gets the hands in the correct position early allowing the rest of the mechanics(body) to pull it thru.

"I might not do anything to that swing if it was representative."

i agree, but he won't hit everyball like that with that swing. He timed it well though.

[Mark H]

The higher this kid gets his front elbow the more his top hand elbow is going to lead his hands with laid over top hand forearm creating a wider swing radius as opposed to what you see the pro doing. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=xd4p3goja1.zebra_s?p=19&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[callyjr]

So you wouldn't get his front elbow working up, leave it the way it is? Lets compare follow thru with the 10yr old and Sosa. Next you will be telling him to goto Englisby's website as well.

Anyway, I think I have shown the 10yr old something that will help him. I'm not going to debate it with you.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/sosa2.gif

[Mark H]

My problem isn't with his bottom hand elbow, it's his top hand elbow I see as a problem, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine.

[Baseball gLove]

looking at the front elbow, notice how it is not straight to the ball its still bent and wrapping around the body. You can get your front elbow as high as you want as long as the back elbow stays tucked. The front elbow coming up changes the way the bat comes thru, it doesn't stay back lagging it works down and gets the hands in the correct position early allowing the rest of the mechanics(body) to pull it thru.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Bonds%20vs%20Abreu%205.jpg

This is the argument I am having with my kid. I say lead elbow stays bent through contact. He's excuse is that lefties are freaks. I show him the Pete Rose clip and he insists the front arm is not bent.

[Mark H]

So you wouldn't get his front elbow working up, leave it the way it is? Lets compare follow thru with the 10yr old and Sosa. Next you will be telling him to goto Englisby's website as well.

Anyway, I think I have shown the 10yr old something that will help him. I'm not going to debate it with you.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/sosa2.gif

Oh I get it. You're an Epstein guy? OK, makes sense. We will just have to agree to disagree I suppose. Instead of comparing follow through, I suggest you compare posture at rotation initiation. There you can find the answer to your elbow discussion.

[Ursa Major]

Getting back to the swing, that is All-Star level among 10 year olds where I come from. What I like is that the barrel head is in the swing plane from setup through load to followthrough.

I've taken the liberty of converting it to a 10-frame .gif file (with numbered frames) so we have something to refer to.

http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/CTandCSwing1.gif

Thinking about moving him to the next level, one of the first things I would address is his "load up", which seems to primarily be to raise up to be a little more erect. If you look at Frame #3, you'll see that there's no load in the front hip or knee.

Frame #6 shows a bit of bat drag/lag (i.e., the back/top elbow leads the hands). Also, the turned front foot shows he's opened up a bit too soon, which would be problematic on pitches lower or more outside.

[Mark H]

I agree. .

[Slapper23]

Some of my kids were doing the same thing as the boy...leaving their hands behind. The hips are opening but there is no direct connection of the lead arm to the front shoulder. If you stood behind him and held onto the bat barrel, asked him to begin his swing, once the hips began rotating you would not feel any pull on the bat. He loses connection, IMO. He really bars the lead arm in the process of leaving his hands behind. It's "hips then hands", not "hips, pause, pause, hands", if you see what I mean. I show my kids what they're doing, then show them how to correct this while telling them once the hips lead, everything turns together. If he connected better, say by frame 5 or 5.5, he could wait longer and have more time to read the pitch, IMO.

Mike

[callyjr]

Actually he does not get on the plane like your saying. His swing is very flat from frame 6 on. If the video was better we coulld actually catch where the ball is coming in at. I slowed it down using my software but it would be nice to catch more frames of the swing.

I never said the swing was not good, I think he has a great swing. Better then most of our 12 to 14 yr olds in our LL, but it can still be better of course.

[Mark H]

I think he connects great. He just does it with a wide radius due to the top hand elbow leading the hands with the top hand forearm laid over. I'm sure he hits the hell out of the ball but I bet he's 7+ frames to do it and I predict he will suffer against better pitching somewhere down the line except for the occassional bomb. Get a standard 30fps video, count the frames from first movement of the bathead into the swing plane till contact. If he's five or five and a half, teach him to tilt over the plate for the low pitch and give him lots of bp. If he's 6-1/2 or more then you know what you need to do. If this kid grows, he could go far. Do your due diligence study and compare what everyone says to slow motion video of the best in the world.

Reading List:

Epstein
Mankin
Englishbey (my choice after being an Epstein fan at one time)
Williams
Dixon
and many others
Good luck

By the way, I think he bars his lead arm because he has to with his top hand arm position. Pretty standard bat drag stuff.

[ctandc]

Okay...

The clip was taken with a digital camera. Sorry for the quality all I had at my disposal, and I was pitching BP at that point so a friend was running the camera.

Someone asked where the ball went? He didn't finish his swing, I can post video from the same night where he REALLY gets thru the ball..but the ball went about 210-ish to LF

I've been reading and reading and reading....trying to 'get my head around' many of the concepts / arguments etc... I'll try to address each of the 'questions' I have in order...

1. Top hand elbow leading the way? Please explain... Any ways / drills to teach this?

I see where 'bat drag' is mentioned several times...and all the links I followed lead me to believe that when bat drag is present, the swing is slow...is that correct?

My son (the clip) never has trouble getting around. If anything he can be 'too aggressive' and gets ahead. Many times he'll get ahead of a pitch and make a last minute adjustment with this hands, and for example, hit one off the end of the bat but muscle it through for a say a double in the gap...when if he had 'stayed in' or waited on the ball longer he would have crushed it.

I understand the need for the back elbow to stay 'tucked' or close to the body as it comes around...we've worked on it before and we'll talk about it again.

The issue is, when confronted with fast pitching (for his USSSA team the 10U 'average' is high 40's to mid 50's)...he's played up to 11U and 12U to help out teams here and there and he hits the faster pitching harder than the slower stuff. And to further compound my confusion, as the posts I'm reading lead me to believe he has a 'long' swing, he flat CRUSHES anything on the inside half of the plate. I've had a parent with a radar gun on ME while I was pitching BP so I could get an idea of how I needed to throw to get as close to what they will see in a game as possible. At the end of one BP session, the kid tells me "I can't throw it by him.." So of course I took a full windup and threw it...I'd honestly say maybe 80% of what I can throw.

Radar gun said mid 70's several pitches in a row. And every one of those pitches near the plate he turned on with authority.

I just don't what to 'tinker' in the wrong direction. Is biggest, and only issue as a 10 year old hitting is WAITING on the ball. The harder it comes in the harder he hits it, so it makes me doubt his swing is 'longer' if longer is supposed to be slower.

In fact the clip post is with a 30" 22oz bat. I will post a clip tomorrow from the same session where he used a 30" 25oz bat and the heavier bat seemed to keep him back longer, but he was still able to get around on faster pitches.

Any tips on drills here? I'm no guru at picking apart clips...so real world (try this / that) would help greatly.

Thanks.

[Mark H]

The kid on the left in this clip http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=3j1uq6rlg1.zebra_s?p=19&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 is displaying bat drag aka the top hand elbow leading the hands with the top hand forearm laid over as you see in the clip. This example is about as bad as it gets. This problem creates a larger swing radius and a longer swing. The swing will likely have a high batspeed resulting in good power. Get him on a standard 30fps video and let's count the frames. Lack of quickness WILL limit a hitter at some point. If you have to start your swing 7 frames before contact vs 5 frames before contact that is a huge piece of your pitch read time that is no longer available to you.

[swingbuster]

The kid got the hands back , shifted weight in perfect time , went into lead arm extension during the shift, released his back side , got lead leg extension ahead of the unhinge, he finished low into the power V. The ball was crushed.

Leave him alone if you are basing your decision on one swing. You are not good enouugh to coach what he is doing well now....he is gifted

That is a very very good swing . Perfect lower body action. Leave him **** alone and don't come back for a while. See post 29 ..it confirms what I thought at post16

heavier bat seemed to keep him back longer

His shift was perfect.....he timed the ball well....you can't teach that. He stayed back / got his shift in perfect time to hit 220 plus. What do you want from this kid.......?

[Mark H]

He has a point about ability to coach and change. How about you check his video frames and embark on a study program yourself to understand the high level swing. I recommend www.englishbeyhitting.com . Others recommend different. Read everything and compare it yourself to slow motion video of the best in the world. Having said all that, there's no doubt that lack of quickness from decision to contact will limit any hitter and there is no doubt the mechanics displayed in the clip I linked will impact quickness.

[callyjr]

I believe Dad said he would provide more clips and thats what I asked for in the early posts. Once we see what he does on a higher pitch ect we can then further give advise. Until then theres nothing more to say. Plus the kid sounds like he has a great eye and the ability to adjust to faster pitching. Sounds like a good athlete in the making.

[ctandc]

Well I had a LONG post typed out and it said I wasn't logged in and I lost it...oh well...quick Cliff Notes..



Swingbuster - Has nothing to do with what I WANT, it's what HE WANTS OUT OF HIMSELF. As long as he asks me to work on this or that, I'll learn / do whatever I have to do to help him as long as I'm able.


I don't take credit for the fact the kid is a naturally gifted athlete. But I also know that the hours upon hours I've spent trying to filter down all the media on rotational hitting into digestable chunks for my kid and others kids has helped alot.


I started working 'lower body' involvement in the swing with him when he was 8....some kids will get it, some won't. He did. I've coached hundreds of other kids and I love seeing their confidence level jump when going from a 'front foot', throw the hands at the ball', hitter to a TURN ON IT (my favorite hitting que..and the kids get pumped hearing it) hitter...that's priceless..watching a kid step in the box KNOWING they can crush the baseball.

Most every kid I've helped / coached won't play college or pro ball..that's just a fact. But if they can excel as long as they ARE playing, that just makes the game all that more fun to play.



As for 'not knowing enough to coach what he does well now'... I'm going to selfishly take some credit...we've been too many hours in it not too. For him it's BP..he loves hitting the baseball...and maybe I did pick up a tidbit or two on my way to DIV 1 college ball when I was playing. Maybe I didn't and it's al been blind luck.


To end that subject, as long as HE WANTS TO GET BETTER and he's ASKING ME TO HELP HIM I will...



Now...

I was 'confused' because it seemed to me that 'bat drag' was associated with the swing getting long , the top hand elbow leading the swing. He's never late on anything...I think his only real 'issue' is that he doesn't trust how truly quick he is at the plate and doesn't wait for the pitch to get to him..but jeez he is 10...so maybe the mental side will come with more maturity.



Are the any cues / drills I Can use to show him how to correc the top hand elbow leading the swing? Will just working on the back elbow staying closer to the body and maybe working on 'tilt' help?

Thanks.

[swingbuster]

Are the any cues / drills I Can use to show him how to correc the top hand elbow leading the swing? Will just working on the back elbow staying closer to the body and maybe working on 'tilt' help?

If you insist...pronate the top hand going to foot plant and he cannot drag..

[BoardMember]

Will just working on the back elbow staying closer to the body and maybe working on 'tilt' help?

No. Keeping the lead elbow close to the body won't eliminate drag. Infact that que might exacerbate the problem, causing the elbow to "lead" through the slot.

If you insist...pronate the top hand going to foot plant and he cannot drag..

Donny is right. (LOL Donny, you did that on purpose didn't you)

In otherwords, get the rear elbow "UP to the shoulder level, and Behind" the top hand, so the forearm and top hand are facing the ground(Pronated).

Like these guys:

http://i11.tinypic.com/4g62wb9.gifhttp://i15.tinypic.com/3025lx3.gifhttp://i11.tinypic.com/2usx15s.gifhttp://i14.tinypic.com/2echu9f.gif

And even this Linear hitter:

http://i10.tinypic.com/4906fja.gif

Take care to notice the rear elbow isn't "just up", it's "up behind" the top hand. As connection starts(supination) from this position, the hands will torque the bat to the shoulder, and accelerate the hands past the shoulder sooner into contact.

[callyjr]

No. Keeping the lead elbow close to the body won't eliminate drag. Infact that que might exacerbate the problem, causing the elbow to "lead" through the slot.



Donny is right. (LOL Donny, you did that on purpose didn't you)

In otherwords, get the rear elbow "UP to the shoulder level, and Behind" the top hand, so the forearm and top hand are facing the ground(Pronated).

Like these guys:

http://i11.tinypic.com/4g62wb9.gifhttp://i15.tinypic.com/3025lx3.gifhttp://i11.tinypic.com/2usx15s.gifhttp://i14.tinypic.com/2echu9f.gif

quiick note, I do agree with this.
Most these hitters do not start the back elbow high like that, they bring it up during the loading phase, during stride. Also to add to it, the front elbow juts up as the bottem elbow hits the slot allowing for an early position top hand down bottem hand up.

[Ursa Major]

I agree that if the kid still wants to improve, there's no reason to just pat him on the back and say, "Hey, you're plenty good for a 10 year old so we won't try to upgrade your game for awhile." In the same vein, though, you shouldn't think just because he can hit your fastest pitching that you don't need to worry about batspeed.

Mark is absolutely right -- the later he can make the "if, where and when" decision to swing, the better off he is. With his swing, he should end up playing All-Star or tournament ball this summer, and he'll face pitchers who are faster and trickier, with curves and changeups. If he starts his swing too early, he'll swing over low changeups, and then, with the bat drag, will hit popups on heaters around the letters.

If he's this motivated, moving him along to the elbow/hand positions as proposed by Board Members is also a good next step. Gad, if you can get all of us in agreement on anything, you know the tip is golden. Good luck with the youngster and keep us posted, It's good for us all to get feedback on what works with a kid with that kind of talent.

[swingbuster]

Are the any cues / drills I Can use to show him how to correc the top hand elbow leading the swing? Will just working on the back elbow staying closer to the body and maybe working on 'tilt' help?

If you insist...pronate the top hand going to foot plant and he cannot drag..

When you isolate the lead arm in the connection will he have enough strength to handle the force?

I personally think( and I am the only one ) the very young boys are relatively weak and overly flexable. Not sure that lead arm can handle the force his shift/ rotation is generating and control the bat head

I have seen " bat drag BEFORE pictures in that age but few AAFTER pictures. In the process you could DISTURB his entire internal timing which is quite good now

See image

http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/habahiyomo.html

SAme deal in this image...this kid did not weigh 70 lbs( you could tie him in a knot).....skinng arms but look at the shift, the lag phase, the releasing back side.....great hitter. Now am I going to starting monkeying with that at his age because NYMAN said the rear elbow was set too far in front...actually said" worse case of bat drag he ever saw"

That is when I stopped listening to that

[ctandc]

Thanks a ton guys...the light bulb went off and the pictures were right on.

It's not really 'elbow up' at all. I'm thinking more of turn everything a bit toward the pitcher during the load...that would make the elbow come up behind the hand...

And guys don't worry, I don't ever do major tinkering during the season. We kind of have a 'routine' when we're tweaking something. One evening, in the yard or in the shop, we'll work on the tweak with soft toss / wiffle balls. Usually I'll get a 'that feels kinda weird' out of him, then I always ask him just to try it long enough to see if HE thinks it makes a difference.

Then we'll go out and I'll throw him BP, just us. We'll try it...and I always ask him to give me 30 minutes of really TRYING the 'tweak' or 'change' regardless of how he thinks it's better or worse. When we're done, if he's more comfortable without the change, he just goes back to hitting the ball.

What I have noticed though...sometimes we'll tweak something here or there, and he'll try it...then say "I'd just rather hit my old way." I say "Okay". And sure enough he's using the new 'tweak' and I don't say a word.

I've got another question, and it's not something I really want to mess with, but I want to ask it ....

Ever since I started working with the kid on getting the lower half into the swing, he finishes LOW like in the clip. He's comfortable with that and he's always hit the ball hard at all levels. I'm wondering if that's a 'style' sort of thing ( he's showed me pictures of Mantle and others who finished like that ) or a 'cause and effect' deal?

I'll be posting more clips shortly.

Thanks.

[ctandc]

http://home.comcast.net/~ctandc/Swing_2.avi

Maybe I'm counting the frame wrong......


This is with the 30" 25oz bat.

The swing in question resulted in a hard line drive into LC field.

Thanks.

[Erik]

ctandc,
I think he leans back to far on this swing. I would get him to move the barrell back and forth a little to get more tension in the setting of the arms. This will help launch a stronger swing. I don't like the barell so still. This allows the arms to relax to much.







EL,

[GFK]

http://home.comcast.net/~ctandc/Swing_2.avi

Maybe I'm counting the frame wrong......

ctandc, what are you using to capture the clip? The avi is at 10 fps. A standard video camera will capture at 30 fps. 10 fps does not give enough temperal information to determine swing quickness.

[ctandc]

Well I did some checking. the digicam i'm using can only record at 20fps...I can record at 20fps instead of 10fps...would that help?

If not maybe it's time to 'upgrade' the camera.

[deaconspoint]

Caution. The following advice is worth what you're paying for it. You seem to be putting a lot of time into the young man's swing and he sounds like he has a great attitude about trying new things. I think that's great. My comments are based on the last clip. The line drive to left.

I like his swing and his intent. I noticed a couple of things that I want to point out and then I'll do my best to answer your question on the finish. The first thing I would ask him to try deals with his launch and turn. He plants on an open foot. I think he may be losing some momentum due to this and it could be causing the bat to get left behind a little. The only other thing I would like to see is a bit more tilt at launch and during the swing. He seems to stand up and then lean back. I mention these two items becuase I am working on similar things with my son now. Landing on the inside of the front big toe and staying less upright throughout are two small things that have produced good results for us.

As for the finish. I am one of the few who believe that it actually does have something to offer the rest of the swing. I believe the follow through is a good way to tell if the rest of the swing was firing properly. I would just ask him to try a high finish. Show him clips of these so he knows what he is looking for. Just my opinion, but I think his body gets in the way on the low finish and he is forced to slow the swing more quickly than needed. What happens after contact does not change the outcome of the swing or where the ball goes. What I have found however is that my son can not finish high unless he has stayed tilted during the swing. When he stays in the proper posture during the swing everything else seems to come together better.

Want to see him really MASH!! Set up with his back side out and spine tilted. Have him land on a slightly turned in front toe, step down hard to fire the hips. Stay down throughout the swing and finish high. This may be one of those, "it feels better my way" times, but it also may show him what he is really capabale of. JMVHO

Hope this helps. Good luck and have fun.

Tim

[ctandc]

Thanks...that's what I figured out on my own last night. When the back elbow 'loads up' during the load phase, and if the hands stay 'in' everything seems to tilt more easily. (Have no clue if that made sense at all).

I've got some clips to show him. He's a big Manny Ramirez fan, so I've got some of his clips to show as well.

I think more 'tilt' in his stance might help with all of this as well. We'll try to play around some this week and see what happens. That and he's wanting to take more and more cuts from the LH side as well.

I've heard the 'intent' comment from many Coaches as well. Last season a friend of mine wanted to have his hitting 'guru' take a look at the kid. We went out there for a free lesson...and a video tape of the session. About 5 swings in the guy asked my kid how old he was...then he asked who worked with him on his swing. After a bit the guy asked my kid what HE thought he needed to work on..the kid looked up and said " I want to hit it HARDER...."

The guy walked up to me and we talked...he asked what my take was. I was honest...

I said that I was fine with the way he swings and hits the ball. But I told him that as long as the KID wants to push it further, I'd do my best to help. It's his swing not mine.

Although is funny how quick kid's can be. Since my son was in diapers I've coached or played in adult hardball leagues....I haven't had time to play hardball the last two seasons, but last Fall I was invited out to a local tourney to pitch. When I got on deck to hit, my son yells from the dugout... "Don't forget Dad..use your hips and TURN ON IT...."

The catcher looked up when I got to the plate and asked if that was my kid...I said yup, that's my hitting instructor LOL

[Mark H]

Sounds like you HAVE been studying. Good. Continue with Englishbey. Compare that to Epstein and to what you hear here all the while comparing everything to slow motion video of the best in the world.

[Mark H]

I think more 'tilt' in his stance might help with all of this as well.

You posted this while I was posting the above. I was impressed with your son, now I'm impressed with you as well. Very insightful.

[ctandc]

You posted this while I was posting the above. I was impressed with your son, now I'm impressed with you as well. Very insightful.

What's the best way to relay this to him? Maybe tell him to 'sit in it' more when in his stance? I'm thinking some pictures of Pujols' stance might help him see it...or is that an 'extreme' example of tilt? (Stance wise).

[Mark H]

It's more about the hips as opposed to the knees. I'll pm you.

[deaconspoint]

I personally think Pujols is a good example, but he is such a beast. It is possibly an extreme example of initial posture, but my feeling is that in practice especially, this is what I want. I want it to be exaggerated in pratice. I don't expect my son to get up there every time and look like that, but he knows what he's shooting for. If I can take him from standing tall to falling into that position at load then he's on his way.

Hopefully you will find what I have. When he is able to get in the right posture when loading up and carry that through the swing, the results are booming!! Those results are what make it easier for him to get back to that position when he's not being reminded.

I recently used a "cue" with my son that has been helpful. We talk about always being in an atheletic position. There is not a much more atheletic position than the position you would be in if you were about to jump out of your shoes. When he is batting now I don't worry as much about his initial set up. He gets in the box lines up and digs in. As the pitcher begins his motion he then get's in a position to jump out of his shoes!! What I found is that this position is knees bent weight evenly distributed and spine tilted ready to explode. The small step or stride is no different than the small step you would take before jumping as high as you can.

Until he actually comes off the groound duriing a swing we'll keep using this. May not stop then if it keeps producing results. Really what it does is reminds him that in loading up, sitting, tilting, and all those movements prior to the swing, what you are really doing is preparing to explode!!

[BoardMember]

It's more about the hips as opposed to the knees. I'll pm you.

Drag is fairly minimal. Weight shift is optimal. Impact position is excellent.

Just get his rear elbow up and behind his top hand into toe-touch, and move his finish up over the front shoulder.

I wouldn't mess with anything else.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2ujrsdt.gif

[swingbuster]

BM

Good work..I never saw any bat drag either.....it is because it is not there

I never see bat drag when you get to lead leg extension before contact/ unhinge

That was the problem with the bat drag indicator point all along ; it was not the top hand necessarily it was the swing was not hip driven up through the torso. pronating the top hand widened the torque angle and got the hips aheaed even further

We need to relook at the bat drag cause. The top hand is pulling because the hips are not driving ...the hips are not driving because the swing got out of balance to the back so the shoulders are pulling themsleves. When the weight shift is fixed, the kinetic chain gets better and NOW the bat drag " plague" is not a problem anymore.

[Mark H]

OK, you guys don't see a problem with the top hand forearm being laid over and the elbow leading pushing the radius of the swing out away from the body and I do. Fair enough.

[ctandc]

The way you posted that clip BM made me notice he does open that front foot pretty quickly.

Might throw in him trying to hit with the front foot more closed at plant.

Thanks for the input.

I think you all are saying the SAME thing but using different words / phrases to get your point across.

I think (again in my opinion) after looking at alot of 'high level' swings, that by getting the 'rear elbow up' at load, the top hand will be forced not to 'lay over' or 'lead' the swing so much.

And on that, I think if his top half was 'bent' or 'tilted' over the plate a bit more, that would 'swivel' everything around as well. Either way I've got several very good points that I can break down to SINGLE changes and if they can produce some results with minimal reps, that will get HUGE responses from him and the other kids.

That's the struggle...we as adults know that you can't change things or redo this or that and have it help overnight...but the thing is..kids don't SEE THAT...you tell them something to try, and they will try it. And if THEY THINK it helped them, they will keep it in their head pretty much from then on. Again just my take on it...

It seems like the same principles just different terminology...maybe I'm trying to make it all TOO simple, but I'm working with 10 year old's here, so maybe that's a good thing?

[BoardMember]

OK, you guys don't see a problem with the top hand forearm being laid over and the elbow leading pushing the radius of the swing out away from the body and I do. Fair enough.

Mark, with all due respect, the clip above shows every frame in the clip. What frame to you see the rear forearm "laid over"?

Here are the "only 3 frames from launch to contact:

http://i14.tinypic.com/35avwd1.jpghttp://i19.tinypic.com/477utg0.jpghttp://i16.tinypic.com/2vuhcvl.jpg

I don't see it at all. I see the rear elbow staying "below the top hand". I do see the hands being left "outside the core" too long, similar to Steve's swing in the infamous comparison clip. He agreed.

Compare these 2 positions. One has drag, one doesn't IMHO......

http://i3.tinypic.com/471xnyqhttp://i19.tinypic.com/477utg0.jpg

[Slapper23]

I think from the waist down, the kid is great, especially for his age. I think he is too top hand dominant right now. Ealier I posted it appeared he was leaving his hands behind, but think it is caused by bat drag. I agree with Mark that he is dragging the bat...my 11 yo granddaughter's swing looks quite a bit like this young guy. We have to get it fixed, even though she too hits the ball up to 220.'

The bat drag is causing the lead arm to bar almost immediatedly at launch because he is too busy with the top hand. I think he'd gain a couple of frames of quickness if he concentrated on fixing the bat drag. It's almost as if the hands have switched roles with the top hand pulling and the bottom hand only supporting the bat, instead of the reverse.

Notice too, the shoulders stop turning at contact and the top hand keeps pulling to a low finish. It is hard to have a high finish without the lead arm continuing to pull through coupled with the turning shoulder...IMO.

Mike

[BoardMember]

The way you posted that clip BM made me notice he does open that front foot pretty quickly.

maybe I'm trying to make it all TOO simple, but I'm working with 10 year old's here, so maybe that's a good thing?

That's the point. He's 10. Work the rear elbow up and behind on the load, and the finish up over the front shoulder(which will help him stay tilted), AND LET HIM HIT.

Good luck!

[Three A's baseball]

BTW Where did that ball end up.....

[deaconspoint]

Keeping it simple is a very good thing in my book. He looks really good here. Keep it up.

[ctandc]

BTW Where did that ball end up.....

210-ish to LF...

[Three A's baseball]

I am not the expert by any means but I like the fact that he looks quite atheletic, has real good balance and makes contact in a great spot.

All of the other things I am too much of a novice to pick up on. Still learning.

[Mark H]

BM,

Middle still.

[Mark H]

I think you all are saying the SAME thing but using different words / phrases to get your point across.

As an old friend used to say, I don't know that I'd go quite that far.



I think (again in my opinion) after looking at alot of 'high level' swings, that by getting the 'rear elbow up' at load, the top hand will be forced not to 'lay over' or 'lead' the swing so much..

Careful.






And on that, I think if his top half was 'bent' or 'tilted' over the plate a bit more, that would 'swivel' everything around as well. .

I think you will be pleased with what other changes this brings but I don't think I'd use the word swivel for historical reasons. lol

[Baseball gLove]

That's the point. He's 10. Work the rear elbow up and behind on the load, and the finish up over the front shoulder(which will help him stay tilted), AND LET HIM HIT.

Good luck!

Which pro finishes over the front shoulder? The closest to coming over the shoulders is Soriano, on one he probably took off the shoe laces and placed over the fence. Most of the top hitters come around the shoulders.

[jima]

I think he looks like a great 10yo athlete with a very good swing...I wouldn't change anything...my question is to MarkH and BM, it looks to me like his hips and chest move at the same time...is that something that you believe in? My son is being taught here to fire his hips first, while keeping the hands and shoulders back to gain some separation. I'm not trying to start something, just trying to learn. jima

[scooby]

Besides the safety factor - it is important to do any serious practicing with all the equipment you would normally use/encounter. It can potentially effect what you are trying to do.

[BoardMember]

Which pro finishes over the front shoulder? The closest to coming over the shoulders is Soriano, on one he probably took off the shoe laces and placed over the fence. Most of the top hitters come around the shoulders.

Well I guess you could start with this one I guess:
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MCabrera2005FLA_SView02.gif

But basically I'm talking hand height at finish. Thanks for clarifying that. The hands finish above the shoulder in most cases. Can you see the hands above the shoulder in these clips?:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/DLee_SView.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MRamirez_Side.gif

The bottom line is if the torso is tilted at launch, the path will be rising into finish. As the torso levels up through finish the hand-path somewhat maintains it's rising plane.

[Baseball gLove]

Well I guess you could start with this one I guess:
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MCabrera2005FLA_SView02.gif

But basically I'm talking hand height at finish. Thanks for clarifying that. The hands finish above the shoulder in most cases. Can you see the hands above the shoulder in these clips?:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/DLee_SView.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MRamirez_Side.gif

The bottom line is if the torso is tilted at launch, the path will be rising into finish. As the torso levels up through finish the hand-path somewhat maintains it's rising plane.

Draw a line shoulder to shoulder and I'd say they are finishing around the shoulders. I think you and I are saying the same thing, but differently. I have found linear coaches want their hitters to not tilt and want them to finish with hands above the shoulders like a golf swing.

[deaconspoint]

Notice that in all three clips the ball location is belt high. Low ball location is not the only time you will see a higher finish. The finish is a result of a proper swing path. When I see a low finish I expect that it resulted from a flat swing. JMHO

Many kids these days are taught to swing flat through the zone or ball. It is unnatural to expect a high finish from a flat swing. That's one of the reasons I think the finish is a bit more important than some.

[swingbuster]

Get a rear view of CLemente or Aaron and you will see the finish of some pretty good batters that swung into a low finsih. THey look more like that kid than you think.

Leave him alone and you might be able to borrow some money in a few years from him

[BoardMember]

Get a rear view of CLemente or Aaron and you will see the finish of some pretty good batters that swung into a low finsih. THey look more like that kid than you think.

Leave him alone and you might be able to borrow some money in a few years from him

Way to pick out 2 linear hitters for hand path at finish. Don't think we're talking linear mechanics with this kid, do you?.

Watch Yaz and tell me he doesn't torque the bat over the shoulder:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//CYastremski1970BOS.gif

[swingbuster]

Way to pick out 2 linear hitters for hand path at finish. Don't think we're talking linear mechanics with this kid, do you?.

Well??

He doesn't coil his hips that I can see. He shift liberally, he rotates the barrel ,

I don't know.....it is what Peavy calls a HYBRID. Shifting that leverages the lead arm and gets off the back side.

I like his swing.

Aaron torques the barrel and so did CLemete with a two plane swing.

Some players have a great hip turn and a more linear hand path; some have a big shift and a CHP up top.

[BoardMember]

Some players have a great hip turn and a more linear hand path; some have a big shift and a CHP up top.

Can't argue with that.........

[Mark H]

My son is being taught here to fire his hips first, while keeping the hands and shoulders back to gain some separation. I'm not trying to start something, just trying to learn. jima

Yes but when does most of the separation happen? As part of the load or part of the unload? Prior to the shoulders starting to rotate or after? Prior to heel plant or after?

[BoardMember]

I think he looks like a great 10yo athlete with a very good swing...I wouldn't change anything...my question is to MarkH and BM, it looks to me like his hips and chest move at the same time...is that something that you believe in? My son is being taught here to fire his hips first, while keeping the hands and shoulders back to gain some separation. I'm not trying to start something, just trying to learn. jima

I find it pretty common for very young hitters to move the entire sequence together. That pretty much IS connection for them. Problem is they're connecting the wrong parts, which is why the hands are frequently late.

It's just my opinion that "drag" is not the same as leaving the hands behind a little to long.

As Donny pointed out, these guys/girls are usually pretty loose "top-side" in general at this age. I prefer not to tighten too much, too early, otherwise you create a mechanical swing that lacks whip to the ball.

You know, I've never said this here, but being a pitching coach has really been a benefit to me in terms of teaching hitting. Give me a 12 year old pitcher that really brings it, and I guarantee you I can "coach him/her into slowness" trying to make her "technically correct" at a young age.

The other problem I've found is when I emphasize HIPS FIRST in 8-10 year olds, they can fire the hips and leave the rest behind because they're so loose top-side.

Getting the elbow "up and back" during the load/stride sequence seems to create just enough separation and torque(yes torque from pronation) for the youngsters, that they don't open the hips to hard and leave the rest behind.

You know the o'l saying if it ain't broke don't fix it? I don't try to "read ahead" to much with young kids unless something is really obviously hurting their chances for center contact and/or power.

Just the way it works for me..........

[jima]

Thanks BM. Mark - his teacher has him trying to tie together the load and separation, but most of the separation occurs after loading and before the shoulders begin to rotate and after plant. The timing is tough to get down; easier with a tee but much more difficult in game situation. I wouldn't change this young player at this age...my son is 13 and has been playing on tournament teams for two years. jima

[LClifton]

As Donny pointed out, these guys/girls are usually pretty loose "top-side" in general at this age. I prefer not to tighten too much, too early, otherwise you create a mechanical swing that lacks whip to the ball.
Nicely stated, BM.

[4for4]

Good point BM. IMO, one of the things to watch out for on the other side is active use of the back arm and thoughts (implicit or explicit) that external rotation of the back arm is the way to go in young players or at all. With the limited frame counts it’s not nearly as easy to tell enough about this swing and I’ve given a cautionary mention to Dad my thoughts on what I would address while waiting for 30fps. But, often you will see the bat moving downward before the foot comes down leading to a swing more dominated by the arms whipping the bat as opposed to a more timely unhinging into contact. I've seen video illustrating this recently and it tends to make the swing slower based on frame count as long as that is considered an important way to measure improvement. Objective standards are important in measuring this, IMO.

[swingbuster]

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/DLee_SView.gif



check how far the elbow comes down before foot plant on the infamous Dereck Lee clip so often posted.


It starts up and back and by the time the foot blocks see where it is

Not saying that is good ; it is just an interesting look

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MCabrera2005FLA_SView02.gif


see Cabrerra going up and back

[4for4]

Thanks Donny. I think Lee's different in terms of what he's doing as opposed to what I've (I'm sure you've seen it as well) seen in recent video of kids. I think there's a lot to be said about the timing and coordination issues that kids have to deal with when trying to get this down. It may be best to stay way from emphasizing the unloading (external rotation of the back arm as opposed to shoulders) and emphasize the loading and timing.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/DLee_SView.gif



check how far the elbow comes down before foot plant on the infamous Dereck Lee clip so often posted.


It starts up and back and by the time the foot blocks see where it is

Not saying that is good ; it is just an interesting look

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MCabrera2005FLA_SView02.gif


see Cabrerra going up and back

[4for4]

Way to pick out 2 linear hitters for hand path at finish. Don't think we're talking linear mechanics with this kid, do you?.

Watch Yaz and tell me he doesn't torque the bat over the shoulder:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//CYastremski1970BOS.gif


I tell ya, this is just one great example of many of the concept of what tilt, sit and turn is IMO. Very nice.

[BoardMember]

Yaz also loads the CRAP out of his rear scap doesn't he.........No wonder the "rail" pounded the ball.........

I tell ya, this is just one great example of many of the concept of what tilt, sit and turn is IMO. Very nice.

[hawkiirock]

time for the dumb question. How do you know if your camera does 30 fps. Also, can u edit film and make it 30 if it isnt that speed from your camera?

[Mark H]

My understanding is the camcorders do and most of the cameras don't.

[GFK]

time for the dumb question. How do you know if your camera does 30 fps. Also, can u edit film and make it 30 if it isnt that speed from your camera?

If it is a camera and not a camcorder, it more than likely tops out at approximately 15 fps. Nearly every camcorder you can purchase at Best Buy or Circuit City will record at 30 fps.

Most camcorders will record at 60 fields per second. Each frame is composed of two fields interlaced together. The end result is 30 fps (frames per second). It is possible with some tools such as AVISynth and VirtualDub to pull the fields back apart (de-interlace) and make a frame from each field. The end result is 60 fps. You convert 30 fps interlaced to 60 fps progressive. The conversion is not for the novice video editor but it can and is done on a regular basis. The 60 fps progressive gives even greater detail.

[hawkiirock]

alright. I think that is about 10 feet over my head. However, i do have a sony dvd camcorder as well. So i will start using it. thanksIf it is a camera and not a camcorder, it more than likely tops out at approximately 15 fps. Nearly every camcorder you can purchase at Best Buy or Circuit City will record at 30 fps.

Most camcorders will record at 60 fields per second. Each frame is composed of two fields interlaced together. The end result is 30 fps (frames per second). It is possible with some tools such as AVISynth and VirtualDub to pull the fields back apart (de-interlace) and make a frame from each field. The end result is 60 fps. You convert 30 fps interlaced to 60 fps progressive. The conversion is not for the novice video editor but it can and is done on a regular basis. The 60 fps progressive gives even greater detail.

[swingbuster]

Yaz also loads the CRAP out of his rear scap doesn't he.........No wonder the "rail" pounded the ball.........

To me, focused loading in the back scap is a small part of what is happening in hitting. It is a much larger part in throwing

In hitting, the baseball backswing involves the lead arm and in pitching not as much.

SO rear scap focus can fog things for a coach adn player. Getting the rear scap loaded will do nothing for bat drag in my hands. I have tried lots of times to make that work but I failed.

The pronated top hand was a miracle insertion in the back swing to connect the lead arm with hips rotation through widening the torque angle.

The fact that a pronated top hand cannnot pull forward and the fact that widening the torque angle is a proven and integral part of power production through torso torque gives me a better foundation to make swing adjustments that I understands and can rely on.

But I know that is not shared by all

[LClifton]

Thanks Donny. I think Lee's different in terms of what he's doing as opposed to what I've (I'm sure you've seen it as well) seen in recent video of kids. I think there's a lot to be said about the timing and coordination issues that kids have to deal with when trying to get this down. It may be best to stay way from emphasizing the unloading (external rotation of the back arm as opposed to shoulders) and emphasize the loading and timing.
You bring up a very good point. (loading and timing)

[BoardMember]

Donny, I was making an observation, not a coaching point. I'm sure you knew that, and just wanted to make a point about drag. I don't think anyone is thinking that scap load has anything to do with correcting drag. Do they?

I do however know that getting the back elbow up, and behind the top hand does help correct drag, for reasons we both agree on.

To me, focused loading in the back scap is a small part of what is happening in hitting. It is a much larger part in throwing

In hitting, the baseball backswing involves the lead arm and in pitching not as much.

SO rear scap focus can fog things for a coach adn player. Getting the rear scap loaded will do nothing for bat drag in my hands. I have tried lots of times to make that work but I failed.

The pronated top hand was a miracle insertion in the back swing to connect the lead arm with hips rotation through widening the torque angle.

The fact that a pronated top hand cannnot pull forward and the fact that widening the torque angle is a proven and integral part of power production through torso torque gives me a better foundation to make swing adjustments that I understands and can rely on.

But I know that is not shared by all

[swingbuster]

Donny, I was making an observation, not a coaching point. I'm sure you knew that, and just wanted to make a point about drag. I don't think anyone is thinking that scap load has anything to do with correcting drag. Do they?

I do however know that getting the back elbow up, and behind the top hand does help correct drag, for reasons we both agree on.

I don't really know how they fix it. I know I could not until we got pronated

I think we do agree. The bat in the 45 slot with a lower elbow and the top hand NOT pronated and the rear elbow around the corner will not help bat drag.

The fix is the pronated top hand and the around the corner elbow not a fix....the two plane swing is a fix too...he was a drag king and in a two plane swing he is not doing this. I see his top elbow up behind his top hand as you descibe here....is that right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAjIO0_JTI

[BoardMember]

Like I said:

http://i19.tinypic.com/450m23p.jpg

I don't really know how they fix it. I know I could not until we got pronated

I think we do agree. The bat in the 45 slot with a lower elbow and the top hand NOT pronated and the rear elbow around the corner will not help bat drag.

The fix is the pronated top hand and the around the corner elbow not a fix....the two plane swing is a fix too...he was a drag king and in a two plane swing he is not doing this. I see his top elbow up behind his top hand as you descibe here....is that right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAjIO0_JTI

[tom.guerry]

for the Dixon aficianados, this is a typical "pull pattern".

This is usually the case for this age, and what you want to do is move them to the high level whip pattern without getting them stuck for long in the "spin" pattern.

Dixon was very good at seeing this and describing it and noting that the same progression happens in throwing overhand.


Dixon also recognized the approach to "fixing" this or progressing to the high level pattern of the "exceptional player" was to insert a missing phase of the swing in the middle, the phase he called shift to explode.

Unfortunately, he did not understand this phase well enough to work.

What does work best of the available/accessible approaches is the Epstein approach. What needs to be inserted is the "rubber band winding" or "running start" which then prepares you for the "drop and tilt".

Epstein's approach is very good for moving this player along. Additional info on arm/forearm action as dominant aspect of the running start and encouraging stride as opposed to no-stride are also good ideas in my opinion.

The difference in this swing appearance of "finishing low" vs the high level upsloping swing preferred by Williams is also apparent. The upsloping look is what results from powering the swing with good torso stretch/loading/segmentation.

[BoardMember]

Crap, there goes the neighborhood.......

Go back on vacation.........

for the Dixon aficianados, this is a typical "pull pattern".

This is usually the case for this age, and what you want to do is move them to the high level whip pattern without getting them stuck for long in the "spin" pattern.

Dixon was very good at seeing this and describing it and noting that the same progression happens in throwing overhand.


Dixon also recognized the approach to "fixing" this or progressing to the high level pattern of the "exceptional player" was to insert a missing phase of the swing in the middle, the phase he called shift to explode.

Unfortunately, he did not understand this phase well enough to work.

What does work best of the available/accessible approaches is the Epstein approach. What needs to be inserted is the "rubber band winding" or "running start" which then prepares you for the "drop and tilt".

Epstein's approach is very good for moving this player along. Additional info on arm/forearm action as dominant aspect of the running start and encouraging stride as opposed to no-stride are also good ideas in my opinion.

The difference in this swing appearance of "finishing low" vs the high level upsloping swing preferred by Williams is also apparent. The upsloping look is what results from powering the swing with good torso stretch/loading/segmentation.

[swingbuster]

Epstein's approach is very good for moving this player along. Additional info on arm/forearm action as dominant aspect of the running start and encouraging stride as opposed to no-stride are also good ideas in my opinion.

the two plane swing helps foster better well synched weight transfer.....
do not leave before you get that

[BoardMember]

the two plane swing helps foster better well synched weight transfer.....
do not leave before you get that

Hey Donny. I ran across this thread from '05. A heated discussion about scap loading and upper load planes. Very interesting reading for me.

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1356022

Pretty incredible discussion considering today's camp make-ups.

I was surprised to here Richard "rip-ur-butt" and treat you like crap back in '05.

I was happy to hear Steve E say to Tom:
Have the maturity of someone like "swingbuster " ,who tries to be very objective,is trying to learn still from people he may disagree with [or that disagree with him or his manner of instruction]

From what I can tell, at least one person from that 2 year old thread holds the same personality today as he had back then.

[swingbuster]

My position has not changed.

Since then , the two plane swing has been revealed better and I am glad for those who got some use out of the light I shined on it along with Tom who knew it all along.

Richard has a good understanding of the swing.

Scap loading was an interesting find. The bigger issue is widening the torque angle and Nyman did not talk about the relationship of scap loading to hip / shoulder separation

Forming a solid/ tight CONNECTION was no always the road to success.

A looser segmented, rythmic, connection with top hand whip was hitting the long ball from my point of view.

I am sure there are other ways to do it. I just don't have as much personal interest in them as I do the better segmented swings

Board Member

I honestly cannot tell at times whether you have a coaching style, an affiliation, or an agenda that motivates your posting. Who are you and what IS you motivation?

[Jake Patterson]

Board Member

I honestly cannot tell at times whether you have a coaching style, an affiliation, or an agenda that motivates your posting. Who are you and what IS you motivation?

Would would have to agree with Donny here. What IS you motivation?? Do you have a camp?

[tom.guerry]

His camp's a little hazey ?

BM -

There are some good threads on eteamz searching under Englishbey as author and reading the give and take is a good way to highlight the differences between PCR and MLB.

[BoardMember]

Jake, Tom, Donny, Why does there have to be a camp? I've said it before, I'll say it again. I have NO CAMP other then the path to learning, and FINDING TRUTH in what happens in the swing.

I did a search on many topics over on eteamz. I was amazed to find a thread, FROM 2 YEARS AGO, where Donny, Richard, Steve and Tom were discussing the same things that I've discussed continually on the boards.

My interest was particularly peaked because I had just made mention of Yaz's scap load.

Then I read Donny's somewhat self-indulgent question over on Eteamz:
Why does his barrel go from the 45 slot to vertical during the load?

Just curious
And I Posted:
When you load the top-side properly, getting the rear elbow up and behind the top hand, and the front shoulder turns in slightly, if the bat is held at 45 degrees in the slot it causes HUGE bat-wrap.

Keeping the bat more vertical allows for the proper upper load sequence without causing bat-wrap and lengthening the path.

In the old thread you guys(Tom Donny, Richard and Steve) were kicking around the same question Donny asked above. It seemed like the answer was close to what I said, so I found it interesting.

Last, I had to laugh when Richard ripped into Donny, calling his invention a "TOY" and rendering it useless.

I laughed because it appeared Richards demeaner has remained consistant since this 2005 thread.

OK? NO CAMP. Just hitting stuff........Oh ya, and a little reminder what a Jerk Richard is........LOL!

His camp's a little hazey?

BM -

There are some good threads on eteamz searching under Englishbey as author and reading the give and take is a good way to highlight the differences between PCR and MLB.

Tom, I DO NOT care to research what SE says. I've already told you that.

And as always, throughout the haze of information on what "is" and "isn't" a teach, clarity/truth exists, if one is open minded enough SEE it.

Donny, as well as you, and many others, have contributed to the journey.

I'm having fun, I hope you are as well.........!

[Jake Patterson]

I'm having fun, I hope you are as well.........!

Fair enough!

[swingbuster]

As long as I am still learning I am having fun. The golf guru Guerry worked my swing back in shape via a few well presented suggestions and I shot a 76 today.

A little shakey at times but solidly improved.

JV team and varisty team won last night and varisty won region albeit rather weak this year.

Things are good :waving