PDA

View Full Version : BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1993


Freakshow
03-29-2007, 08:48 AM
Welcome to Baseball Fever's Mock HOF VC Election for 1993. This is the seventh election in a project to conduct Hall of Fame VC elections from 1987-2001 (and perhaps beyond). You're being asked to play the role of a VC voter, as if you were actually part of the VC conclaves of that time. The goal of this project is to elect the best candidate each time, with the knowledge you are applying a lower standard than used for the BBWAA elections. These elections will not consider players already elected in BBF Mock BBWAA elections, such as Ashburn, Santo, Allen and Cepeda.

This post will provide two things:

1) The Format and Rules

2) A Guide for the 1993 Election

Format and Rules
- The HOF VC never published an actual ballot, and the results of their voting were not compiled for public consumption. At the same time, they rarely considered players who retired over 70 years ago, preferring guys they fondly remembered seeing. Thus, our focus will be towards 20th century players they should have been considering. Our ballot will allow them a 50-year window of retirees (1920-1969 for this election). This will eliminate players whose careers began in the 19th century. As the actual VC did, we will consider those players in separate ballots 1995-2001. The VC was also giving short shrift to Negro league candidates at this time. Again, as the actual VC did, we will consider those players in separate ballots 1995-2001.

- We will have a 29-player ballot for this election, down from 33 in 1992. I will act as the screening committee. You can suggest other candidates, of course, and if I get a second for a candidate I’ll add him to the next ballot. This number will mainly decline as we proceed with elections, but we will always list at least 25 candidates. Close attention will be paid to identifying candidates who are in their last two years of eligibility (1920-21 retirees for the 1993 election).

- Voters may vote for between 1-29 candidates; you’re free to support anyone you think is deserving of the Hall. Because we are electing only one player each time, voters will have complete freedom to support everyone they like. This policy is consistent with the VC rules in force at the time.

- A "None of the Above" option is not available. We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them. (The words above the poll, “but at least five,” are a suggestion and not a requirement, that we might have a better chance of fulfilling our mandate and actually electing a few guys.)

- We will enshrine the leading vote-getter so long as he is supported by a majority of the voters (more than 50% needed); but only one player per year maximum. If two or more players with +50% tie for first place, the one with better support in recent elections will be enshrined.

- Players will ensure their continuing on the ballot as long as they average 12% support over three years (candidates failing this requirement will sometimes be added back to the ballot to reach the 25-player minimum or if they’re deemed deserving of another chance). Players in their final year eligible will be allowed to continue beyond that as long as they receive 18% support. We’ll also give new candidates a chance to build some momentum: players drawing less than 12% may also continue on the ballot if their vote percentage equals or exceeds 2.5 times their years eligible. Look at that in chart form:

Yr 1 needs 2.5%
Yr 2 needs 5.0%
Yr 3 needs 7.5%
Yr 4 needs 10.0%

- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.

- When figuring a candidate’s worthiness, everything counts, the sum of their lifetime in baseball. Some players have significant manager credit – Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges; others, like Lefty O’Doul, made contributions that nearly surpassed their playing career.

- The election will normally close a week after it starts. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.

- MORE IMPORTANT: Remember, this is not an election of the BBF VC; this is not the place to express your personal feelings as to where the line should be drawn for the Hall of Fame. You’re playing the role of a HOF VC voter. You go into that room with a list of players that you're supporting - nobody goes in there with the aim of objecting to every candidate brought up. By requesting, insisting, agitating for at least five votes, I'm trying to impress this reality on our electorate here: you've gotta support some guys. I am also asking voters to be sensitive to the consensus of who the top candidates are (see chart below) and try to support them. I've even taken the unpleasant step of singling out ballots that are obviously contrary to our aim.

Given the standards established through seven decades of voting, it’s clear that the BBWAA missed some guys that are over the line for the Hall. However, there aren’t any no-brainers on here; we’re dealing with players closer to the Hall’s in-out line. Careful study of the candidates is required to determine the ins from the outs. If you’re not up to this, please, no off-the-top-of-my-head ballots. Don’t just cast a contrarian ballot without good reasoning. If that means fewer ballots, that’s fine. I would rather have an informed vote of 12 ballots then a quick-and-dirty vote of 52 ballots. We need voters who are on board with the mission. Ballots that are judged to be frivolous or an obstruction to our goal of electing someone may be deleted from the poll.

1993 Guide
There are 29 candidates on the 1993 ballot. They all played their final game in the period 1920 to 1969. Here's some information regarding them:

Top Vote-getters in the 1987-92 Elections

38 bal 31 bal 31 bal 29 bal 31 bal 32 bal
1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992
Larry Doby CF 71.05 80.65 ----- ----- ----- -----
Nellie Fox 2B NE NE 77.42 ----- ----- -----
Hal Newhouser P 68.42 58.06 67.74 72.41 ----- -----
Sherry Magee LF 52.63 58.06 67.74 65.52 64.52 -----
Stan Hack 3B 47.37 51.61 58.06 68.97 45.16 68.75
Joe Gordon 2B 60.53 54.84 64.52 65.52 61.29 59.38
Red Schoendienst 2B 42.11 41.94 45.16 48.28 58.06 56.25
Gil Hodges 1B 34.21 45.16 35.48 58.62 48.39 56.25
Wes Ferrell P 31.58 35.48 41.94 48.28 41.94 53.13
Carl Mays P 42.11 41.94 45.16 65.52 51.61 50.00
Heinie Groh 3B 28.95 32.26 35.48 41.38 35.48 37.50
Billy Pierce P NE 25.81 32.26 37.93 32.26 37.50
Larry Doyle 2B 15.79 16.13 29.03 41.38 35.48 34.38
Gavy Cravath RF 23.68 25.81 25.81 37.93 29.03 31.25
Vern Stephens SS 18.42 16.13 19.35 34.48 35.48 28.13
Bucky Walters P 10.53 12.90 16.13 20.69 22.58 28.13
Al Rosen 3B 18.42 19.35 6.45 24.14 19.35 28.13
Tommy Bridges P 5.26 12.90 12.90 20.69 19.35 28.13
Tony Lazzeri 2B 28.95 19.35 19.35 20.69 22.58 25.00
Phil Rizzuto SS 23.68 16.13 12.90 24.14 22.58 25.00
Rocky Colavito RF NE NE NE NE NE 25.00
Bob Johnson LF 23.68 22.58 22.58 24.14 22.58 21.88
Urban Shocker P 15.79 19.35 16.13 24.14 16.13 21.88
Lefty O'Doul LF 13.16 9.68 19.35 17.24 16.13 18.75

First Timers (1)
Ken Boyer

Other Recently-New Eligibles
Rocky Colavito (2nd year)
Elston Howard (2nd)
Roger Maris (2nd)
Curt Simmons (3rd)

Last Year of Eligibility (18% needed to continue)
Gavy Cravath (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=950&pid=2979)
Larry Doyle (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=989&pid=3769)

Next to Last Year of Eligibility
none

Actual Hall of Famers on VC 1993 Ballot (3)
Tony Lazzeri (1991)
Phil Rizzuto (1994)
Red Schoendienst (1989)

Members of BBF Hall of Fame on VC 1993 Ballot (2)
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon

Members of the Hall of Merit on VC 1993 Ballot (5)
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Heinie Groh
Billy Pierce

Candidates Named to the BBF Hall of Corrections (3)
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon

Candidates Listed on the 2007 Hall of Fame VC Ballot (10)
Ken Boyer
Rocky Colavito
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Roger Maris
Carl Mays
Don Newcombe
Lefty O’Doul
Mickey Vernon

For previous discussion of this project, see these threads:
Cooperstown, NY – Spring, 1986 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57472)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1987 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57498) (none elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1988 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57838) (Larry Doby elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1989 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58135) (Nellie Fox elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58437)1990 (Hal Newhouser elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1991 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58684) (Sherry Magee elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1992 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58967) (Stan Hack elected)

Freakshow
03-29-2007, 09:00 AM
I left this poll open for only six days, rather than seven. Reason being that I am scheduled to leave town for a ten-day spring break on the 5th. I am planning to have the 1994 voting thread up before then. If somebody wants to volunteer to close out that round, raise your hand; otherwise I'll close out 1994 when I return on the 16th.

KCGHOST
03-29-2007, 09:20 AM
Boyer
Bridges
Elliott
Ferrell
Johnson
Pierce
Schoendienst
Shocker

Freakshow
03-29-2007, 11:37 AM
For the 1994 ballot we're looking to add players who last played in 1970:

Bob Allison
Johnny Roseboro
Earl Wilson

We're also considering adding players who last played in 1922:

Art Fletcher (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1001&pid=4512)
Clyde Milan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Milan)

These seem to me to be the guys possibly worthy of nominating for the ballot. Any favorites?

I'm nominating Charlie Keller again. AG2004 just did a Keltner list for Keller (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=856065#post856065).

Erik Bedard
03-29-2007, 12:00 PM
I'll nominate Roy Face again. Where's AlecBoy to second him for me?

jalbright
03-29-2007, 07:26 PM
I'll nominate Roy Face again. Where's AlecBoy to second him for me?

He's not been around for a while, for reasons I will not discuss with anyone not a moderator.

Jim Albright

DoubleX
03-30-2007, 07:17 AM
I'm guessing Cecil Travis was dropped due to consistent lack of support?

Freakshow
03-30-2007, 07:30 AM
I'm guessing Cecil Travis was dropped due to consistent lack of support?
Exactly. Last year the rules said this: "Players will ensure their continuing on the ballot as long as they average 10% support over three years." Since being reinstated, Travis' support was 6.9%-9.7%-9.4%. However, I'm lenient with this, and not dropping players whose support is increasing. So, if Travis had managed one more vote last election I would've kept him on.

Freakshow
03-30-2007, 07:45 AM
Speaking of that, there are now 24 players who dropped off due to poor support who are still eligible for reinstatement:

Joe Adcock
Lew Burdette
Dolph Camilli
Walker Cooper
Wilbur Cooper
Alvin Dark
Del Ennis
Bob Friend
Jim Gilliam
Dick Groat
Charlie Keller
Ted Kluszewski
Harvey Kuenn
Dolf Luque
Marty Marion
Frank McCormick
Buddy Myer
Johnny Pesky
Jack Quinn
Roy Sievers
Cecil Travis
Hal Trosky
Lon Warneke
Ed Yost

Freakshow
03-30-2007, 07:52 AM
I'll nominate Roy Face again.
Your argument last election consisted only of:

"He was the second consistently great reliever, after Wilhelm. His 1962 season was truly outstanding, better than all of Wilhelm's except one. His 1957 season was amazing as well, and I don't think anybody meant as much to the Pirates in their 1960 WS run as Face did."

Do you have any persuasion to add to this?

leecemark
03-30-2007, 08:15 AM
--If we were to add a reliever to this ballot I'd be more inclined to go with Firpo Marberry. He has a better ERA+ and over twice as much Black and Grey Ink as Face. Installing him as the bullpen ace was the move which propelled the Senators from losers to back to back pennants in 1924-5. He retired with the single season and career record in saves (although nobody was aware of it at the time, since the stat did not exist). If Marberry had been content to remain in the bullpen he would likely have held those records for the next 40 years, unless other teams had followed the Senators example and found relief aces of their own. Of course, if they had done that then Marberry would deserve more credit as a pioneer.

Erik Bedard
03-31-2007, 06:57 PM
All right, I'll argue for Face a little more.

Often, there are relief pitchers who have an great season or two, and then flame out. Face had two great seasons, but he stuck around for sixteen years, only three times putting up a ERA+ below 100.

I'll run him through the Keltner Test:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Often times, he was.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Not usually, because Hoyt Wilhelm was around, but he was almost always one of the best relievers in the NL.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

In 1960, he had 24 saves and finished 61 games while his team won the pennant.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

No, but I personally don't like similarity scores for relievers of his era.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

No.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

I'd say that he may be the best eligible reliever who is not in as of 1993.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

In 1959, he finished seventh in MVP voting. In 1962, he had a CYA-caliber season.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?

He had quite a few All-Star type seasons, yet only played in three. Most three-time All-Stars are not HoFers.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

No, although it was possible.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

No.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I can tell.

ironman
03-31-2007, 08:20 PM
I think its time we get Boyer in.

DoubleX
04-02-2007, 10:09 PM
Speaking of that, there are now 24 players who dropped off due to poor support who are still eligible for reinstatement:

Joe Adcock
Lew Burdette
Dolph Camilli
Walker Cooper
Wilbur Cooper
Alvin Dark
Del Ennis
Bob Friend
Jim Gilliam
Dick Groat
Charlie Keller
Ted Kluszewski
Harvey Kuenn
Dolf Luque
Marty Marion
Frank McCormick
Buddy Myer
Johnny Pesky
Jack Quinn
Roy Sievers
Cecil Travis
Hal Trosky
Lon Warneke
Ed Yost

What about Tommy Leach? If Myer and Travis were put back on the ballot, I'd continue to vote for them.

Another player I'd say is worth of some consideration is Del Pratt.

John Shoemaker
04-02-2007, 10:57 PM
If Joe Adcock and Roy Sievers were put back on the ballot I'd continue to vote for them.

Freakshow
04-03-2007, 07:54 AM
What about Tommy Leach? If Myer and Travis were put back on the ballot, I'd continue to vote for them.

Another player I'd say is worth of some consideration is Del Pratt.
Leach last played in 1918, so he played before the time period being considered for this ballot. The rules now require candidates to draw at least 18% support if they have exceeded the expiration date. For example, it appears that Doyle and Cravath will continue on the ballot past this election. Leach received only 9.7% support in his final year. He will be eligible for the 19th century ballot, since he debuted before 1900.

For Myer, Travis and Pratt: perhaps you can persuade us why they should be seconded. Those first two already have two strikes on them (three strikes and you're out), while Pratt is not far from his expiration date.

Colorado Express
04-03-2007, 08:00 AM
Gordon
Hodges
Mays
Schoendienst

Freakshow
04-03-2007, 08:04 AM
If Joe Adcock and Roy Sievers were put back on the ballot I'd continue to vote for them.
Adcock's support in his three years was 10.3%-9.7%-6.3%; Sievers received 6.5%-10.3%-9.7%-6.3%. As one of his few advocates, maybe you can persuade us why they are more than deadwood. BTW, even if reinstated they would need to get over the 12% support level to continue, which they haven't reached yet.

Freakshow
04-03-2007, 08:15 AM
IMO, this the first election we've had with no deadwood, the process having gradually weeded them out. Well, except maybe for Simmons, who is on the bubble right now, needing one more vote to exceed the 7.5% needed to continue.

I still wish we could get Charlie Keller on the ballot. If you haven't followed the links I provided for him last year and this year, please do so.

DoubleX
04-03-2007, 09:45 AM
For Myer, Travis and Pratt: perhaps you can persuade us why they should be seconded. Those first two already have two strikes on them (three strikes and you're out), while Pratt is not far from his expiration date.

I can let Myer and Travis go because they've had their chance, though I will say that Travis was headed for a Hall of Fame career until WWII. He missed nearly four seasons and was never the same player after the war, due to frostbite he suffered (at the Battle of the Bulge I believe), and thus I believe he deserves a good amount of war credit. Before the war, he was a tremendous hitter for average, especially for a SS, where he only once hit below .317 in 8 seasons, and he hardly ever struck out. And he was just coming into his own as the war broke out. 1941 was by far his best season, and he was still only 27. That year he hit. 359 and had a 150 OPS+.

As for Pratt. I'm not hugely enthusiastic about him, but given that he's time of eligibility is nearing an end, that in itself might be a good reason to put him on the ballot, just to see how he'll fare. Pratt had a 112 OPS+ at a time when 2Bmen weren't expected to contribute much, and had a very respectable .292 career BA when the league was hitting .271. He had very good speed (though he was caught stealing quite often), and he drove in a lot of runs for a 2Bman back then, twice topping 100.

Freakshow
04-03-2007, 10:07 AM
All right, I'll argue for Face a little more.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Often times, he was.

There are only two years he was in the running for his team's best player, 1959 and 1962. Neither win shares nor WARP sees him as the Pirate's top player in those years, or any year, for that matter; he's not rated as the second best player in any season either. Guys like Friend, Mazeroski, Hoak and Law were consistently rated ahead of him. In MVP voting he was the top Pirate only in 1959.

Erik Bedard
04-03-2007, 11:01 AM
I don't feel that WARP and WS do relief pitchers enough justice, especially guys in Face's era.

Freakshow
04-04-2007, 07:01 AM
As for Pratt. I'm not hugely enthusiastic about him, but given that he's time of eligibility is nearing an end, that in itself might be a good reason to put him on the ballot, just to see how he'll fare. Pratt had a 112 OPS+ at a time when 2Bmen weren't expected to contribute much, and had a very respectable .292 career BA when the league was hitting .271. He had very good speed (though he was caught stealing quite often), and he drove in a lot of runs for a 2Bman back then, twice topping 100.
I agree, Pratt has a few things going for him. But if I'm looking for a secondbaseman from that era to enshrine, it has to be Doyle.

It should be remembered that 2B and 3B were switched on the defensive spectrum from where they are now; 2B was more the offensive position, while 3B was defense first. There are a number of 2B from Pratt's era who were plus hitters or great hitters: Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Frisch, Doyle, Evers, Huggins and McManus along with Pratt.

RuthMayBond
04-04-2007, 07:15 AM
He's not been around for a while, for reasons I will not discuss with anyone not a moderator.

Jim AlbrightThank you :applaud: :clapping

Freakshow
04-04-2007, 09:11 AM
Here are the results, in order, for the 1993 Mock VC election:

1920-1969 Votes Pct
Ken Boyer 19 65.52% (elected)
Joe Gordon 18 62.07%
Wes Ferrell 17 58.62%
Red Schoendienst 17 58.62%
Gil Hodges 15 51.72%
Carl Mays 15 51.72%
Heinie Groh 13 44.83%
Vern Stephens 12 41.38%
Larry Doyle 11 37.93%
Billy Pierce 11 37.93%
Tony Lazzeri 10 34.48%
Bob Johnson 9 31.03%
Tommy Bridges 8 27.59%
Gavy Cravath 8 27.59%
Phil Rizzuto 8 27.59%
Al Rosen 8 27.59%
Bucky Walters 8 27.59%
Rocky Colavito 7 24.14%
Joe Wood 7 24.14%
Elston Howard 6 20.69%
Roger Maris 6 20.69%
Urban Shocker 6 20.69%
Wally Berger 5 17.24%
Bob Elliott 5 17.24%
Lefty O'Doul 5 17.24%
Mickey Vernon 5 17.24%
Don Newcombe 4 13.79%
Wally Schang 4 13.79%
Curt Simmons 2 6.90%

Just as we did with Nellie Fox, we have elected Ken Boyer in his first year eligible after being rejected by the mock BBWAA voters. As expected, Gordon battled him for the lead the entire election before losing out at the wire. Let's keep focusing on the top guys. Among the top finishers, IMO at least four have impeccable cases for election.

The average ballot had 9.28 names listed, up from 8.72. That seems like a pretty reasonable minimum to me; voters ought to be able to find eight guys worth supporting.

As it stands now, there are no newcomers for the 1994 ballot, so we'll give Simmons a second chance at building a constituency. Any eleventh hour nominations?