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scorekeeper
03-24-2007, 11:39 AM
Special report: Longest odds
Rich win, poor lose in high school sports
By Phillip Reese and Tim Casey - Bee Staff Writers
Last Updated 12:24 am PDT Saturday, March 24, 2007

Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A1

Winning, the losers are told, is not what matters. Sports are just for fun, after all. Losing builds character and discipline. It teaches you to deal with adversity.

Those words are like mantras at the region's lowest socioeconomic schools -- where statistics show athletes face the longest odds of winning -- their repetition increasing as the losses pile up.

They contradict the common view of sports as the great equalizer. And they offer little solace to the Highlands High Scots late in the fall soccer season, as the boys team loses 3-0 to another of the worst teams in the region.

The North Highlands school is among the region's poorest -- those with more than 40 percent of their students qualifying for a government lunch subsidy. The soccer team doesn't even have matching uniforms.
On this day, team members don't seem to be having much fun at all. Nobody smiles or laughs when the ball skips between their goalie's legs, putting them further down the hole. They don't seem to be enjoying themselves at halftime as assistant coach Dan Sisneros calls their performance "pathetic" and says he has "better things to do."

At the end of the game, they walk away downtrodden, losers again. They'll fail to score a goal in more than half their games through the fall season and win only once, underlining an unwritten rule of high school athletics: The rich win; the poor lose. A harsh truth for anyone, but especially for teenagers.

"We've really perpetuated this idea that sports can be a way to climb out of an economic hole," said Maureen Smith, who teaches sports sociology at California State University, Sacramento. "Maybe (winning) has much more meaning ... because of that idea that this is your way out."

In the last school year, poorer local high schools lost more than two of every three games they played against wealthier public and private schools, according to a Bee data analysis of more than 12,000 games played by more than 20,000 athletes from about 180 schools in the Sac-Joaquin Section of the California Interscholastic Federation, stretching from Nevada County to Merced.

The 45 poorest public schools, which educate a third of those students, were less than half as likely to win major division championships as the 44 wealthiest public schools.

It's true not just for soccer, but for all the major sports: volleyball, football, baseball, softball and basketball. Throw in traditional club-type sports such as water polo, tennis, golf and swimming -- where a competitive edge often comes through private training -- and the odds stack up even higher.

Though the discrepancy can be blamed on many factors, experts and officials say, it mostly comes down to this for the players themselves: Grow up in a poor area and you're unlikely to have the infrastructure and support needed to reach your full potential. You are set up to lose.

You probably don't play on an expensive club team outside of school, like many of your opponents. Your mom can't afford the $150 monthly membership at the private strength-training club the guy lined up against you has joined. Like a lot of poorer kids, you may have a weight problem holding you back. Your coach doesn't have a big staff like his peers at the wealthier school; in fact, your coach might take the first opportunity to leave for a winning team. You might not have the minimum grades required to play or you may just not be motivated to go out for a team with a history of losing.

And there's a real chance you've never hit a forehand winner, tried the breaststroke, learned the offsides rule in soccer or visited a driving range.

According to the Highlands Scots' head coach, Eddie Rios, his team members are drawing a devastating conclusion from their repeated losses. It's a lesson, he says, that permeates the school: We're not supposed to win.

"They settle for second-best," Rios said, "because they can't see themselves as winners."
A losing attitude spreads

Losing becomes a habit. At Highlands last year, the Scots lost 106 of their 149 games in the major sports -- almost three in four.

It's a familiar story at a majority of the area's poorest schools. When your school expects you to lose, when you expect to lose, guess what happens?

"It's frustrating when we don't have confidence in a lot of matches," said Patricia DeMille, a senior on the Valley High volleyball team, which went 4-12 in the fall. "When we get down, we stay down. We don't know how to pick ourselves up again."

Kids who would be heroes at winning schools like Grass Valley's Nevada Union or Roseville say they sometimes find themselves treated with indifference at their own poorer schools.

"It's supportive only if you are winning," said Robert Rogers, a Florin senior and one of the region's best wide receivers. "If you are not winning, a lot of people don't want to come (to the games)."

All of this Rios, the Highlands coach, already knows. But he knows something else, too: The teams that beat him, with their fit, club-trained players and full rosters, come from schools that don't likely have more raw talent. If not for economic hardship, he says, his team would win.

"There is a tradition of good athletes" at Highlands, he adds, "just not good teams."
Rios' team members seem surprised when things go their way. They follow good plays with a blunder: a great pass, then a missed goal.

During one game, a Highlands player ran down a rival and stole the ball. Assistant coach Sisneros shouted praise. "Nice, nice. That's the way to cover," he said.

The player passed the ball off quickly, too -- to an opponent.
Poor grades derail promise No one has to tell the athletes at Sacramento's Hiram Johnson High they don't have the same advantages as some of their opponents. They are reminded of it nearly every week -- in major sports, they lost 36 of last year's 40 matchups with wealthy schools.

Yet early in the fall season, the Warriors' football team members let themselves hope as they prepared for their homecoming game against another poor team. A victory could point them toward the playoffs.
That morning, class was let out for a pep rally -- the first in at least five years. In the gym, Coach Jack Garceau announced players' names. They stepped forward to cheers.

Later, a procession led the team to the stadium: first, a horse ridden by former student Amanda Rodriguez, dressed in an Indian outfit; then a cheerleading squad and 10-student band.

Finally came the players, screaming through their face masks: "Let's do this. Let's go, baby. C'mon. Our field, baby. Our house."

With two wins under their belt, Johnson already had matched or beaten its victory total for each of the last four seasons. The crowd had grown along with the team's improvement.

During last year's games "we could hear crickets, it was so quiet," said running back Houston Roots. "We're building now. It's coming along."

For homecoming, though, something would literally be missing. Some of the best players would be not on the field, but in the stands; some had dropped out of school entirely. Eligibility for high school sports requires a C average, according to section rules, and many potential players couldn't hack it.

Poor grades force coaches at the less well-off schools to turn away up to half of those who try out, they say. About half of Johnson's students tested below a basic knowledge level on the state's standardized language arts test, for instance -- a showing far short of state average. Students who lack such skills are prime candidates to flunk class.

"We have kids walking the halls who could be studs on the field but their grades aren't there," said John Fleming, the Johnson athletic director.

So, with just a few more players than positions, the Johnson Warriors took the field against the Burbank Titans. That was when their grand hopes of winning began to die.

Burbank scored touchdowns on its first four possessions. Johnson couldn't move the ball on offense. On the sidelines, the Warriors tried to remain motivated. Curtis Dao, a junior, was the most animated. "We don't have to sleep out there, kid," he urged, as Burbank went ahead 14-0.

By halftime, the Titans were up 27-0. The Warriors were distraught.
As the players tried to regroup, the student body staged a halftime parade. Six pickup trucks and a stretch limousine filled with students circled the dirt track surrounding the football field.

The festive mood, already dampened by the score, soon turned ugly. Late in the third quarter, with Johnson trailing 41-0, a fight broke out near the concession stands. Over the loudspeakers came an ominous message: "Please exit immediately. No fans are allowed to watch the rest of the game.”

While school officials and police escorted fans to the parking lot, the game resumed. In the fourth quarter, Johnson finally scored a touchdown.

But by then, no one was left to cheer.
Revolving door of coaches

Empty stands are a familiar sight for Brian Mitchell, who coaches one of the worst teams in the region.
Going into the fall season, the Encina High girls volleyball team in the Arden area had not won a single set for three years, let alone a match -- 120 straight losing sets. It won a few sets this year, but still not a match.
Mitchell, the school's athletic director, is passionate about his athletes, but he admits he knows little about volleyball. Without Mitchell, there would be no team, however; he was the only one willing to coach. He tried to make up for shortcomings by watching volleyball training films and asking a former student player to give clinics.

"I've been doing all kinds of stuff," said Mitchell, who also coaches boys basketball and track.
Poorer schools have trouble attracting and keeping good coaches. And, at the high school level, consistent coaching can make a real difference.

"A coach that has been there a long time is able to tell the junior high coaches, the freshman coaches, the JV coaches, what kind of plays they are going to run and the system they are going to run," said Pete Schroeder, a sports sociology instructor at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

Each year, the Sac-Joaquin athletic section names several model coaches -- typically rewarding veterans with a history at one school. Only five of the 38 model coaches named during the past six years came from the poorer schools.

Coaches tend to give up after a year or two of losing, Schroeder said. The rare ones who succeed at a poorer school, he added, often leave for stronger programs at wealthier schools.

Mike Dimino led the Hiram Johnson Warriors football team to some of its most successful seasons six years ago. He is now at Del Campo, one of the wealthier schools in the region, and leading them to winning seasons.

Though Dimino said he left Johnson for other reasons, he acknowledges that it's easier to raise funds at Del Campo and he doesn't have to cut as many kids for poor grades.

"The academics here," he said, "without a doubt there is a stronger support system and everything."
A disparity in athlete fitness

It would be easier for coach Mitchell to do his job if all the Encina volleyball players showed up for the first practice ready to dive for a save and run down a chip shot. But, just as bad grades shrink the pool of
potential athletes, so does poor fitness.

When Mitchell's girls face off against a wealthier team, they're clearly in worse shape -- some are overweight, and jumps above the net for a big spike are rare.

Students at the 15 least successful athletic programs in the region are more than twice as likely to be in poor shape -- failing at least half of the state's six physical fitness standards -- as students at the 15 most successful programs in the region, The Bee's analysis of state data found.

At the most successful schools, about 1 in 7 ninth-graders are out of shape; at the worst, that distinction affects roughly 1 in 3. That's the situation at Florin High, a poor school in south Sacramento, where last year a third of ninth-graders failed at least half of the fitness standards.

The results were on display this fall when Florin's football team faced off against Jesuit High. The Jesuit guys were big. Eight of their 10 leading tacklers weighed more than 200 pounds -- mostly muscle, not fat. On the Florin side, only three of the team's 10 leading tacklers topped 200 pounds.

The Florin Panthers lost 31-14; in their previous five football games against Jesuit, Florin had been outscored 202 to 69.

"They're obviously a lot bigger and play physical," Florin coach Mike Morales said after the game. "We were trying to get them with speed, but they're fast, too."

For the past year, Morales has tried to bulk up his players. But he gets them for only about 45 minutes a day at the end of school. They train in a 500-square-foot weight room with a lot of old equipment. In the fall and winter, Morales packs in 50 or so kids.

Morales, in his second year as coach, says he cannot always give them the individual attention they need.
"It's still developing," Morales said. "It's hard to watch 50 or 60 guys when you've got one or two coaches."
Wealthier schools tend to have more coaches available at more times. At Nevada Union, for example, the football program alone has 26 coaches for three teams.

In addition, better-off kids get private strength workouts at places like Sports Specific Training in Rocklin. Run by ex-high school football coach Steve Kenyon and former San Francisco 49ers linebacker Dan Bunz, training at SST starts at $129 a month and draws kids as young as 12.

"Our talent pool is ... the kid who aspires to be an elite athlete and they have the parental support and financial backing," Kenyon said. "A lot of kids in lower socioeconomic areas would love to train at places like here. But they can't."

Thin budgets, decrepit facilities
Florin's home football games aren't even at home, thanks to substandard facilities. The same is true at Encina, where fans must drive about four miles -- a 15-minute trek on a busy Friday night -- to El Camino High to watch their team play.

Encina's football field is torn up. There are no large bleachers, no scoreboard. The school doesn't have a pool, either. And a huge crack runs through the tennis courts, rendering them largely useless.

Football fields, pools, courts -- all cost money, and the poorer schools don't have much of it.
Though their schools' base state budgets are about the same, poorer schools tend to have demands on their resources that trump athletics. How can Encina justify spending a lot on sports teams when 53 percent of 10th-graders test below basic levels on benchmark English exams -- almost twice as bad as the state average?
The programs' small budgets also reflect a lack of money in the surrounding community.

A school like Nevada Union will draw thousands of paying spectators to each of its home football games. And the football team's booster club raised an additional $250,000 during fiscal 2005 -- a huge figure for a local program.

At Oak Ridge High in El Dorado Hills, each sport's official budget is only a portion of the money they spend. For all sports, the school receives between $75,000 and $100,000 from boosters each year, estimates athletic director Steve White, atop the district's contribution of $95,000 for program costs and about $75,000 for coaching salaries.

"Being a poor school means not having the best equipment, the best facilities, not having coaches stick around as long, uniforms," said sociologist Smith. "It's about social class."

The resulting losses, Smith said, are "evidence about how class really plays out."

Mattingly
03-24-2007, 02:04 PM
I'm curious, what's the purpose of this thread? It seems to focus a lot on HS football and coaching. Anything there related to baseball much?

I'm also wondering why a link wasn't used, rather than posting a very long article.

Oh, and spacing between paragraphs helps in terms of legibility also.

Thx.

scorekeeper
03-24-2007, 03:10 PM
I'm curious, what's the purpose of this thread? It seems to focus a lot on HS football and coaching. Anything there related to baseball much?

I'm also wondering why a link wasn't used, rather than posting a very long article.

Oh, and spacing between paragraphs helps in terms of legibility also.

Thx.

Good questions all.

The purpose was to show not necessarily that baseball was or wasn’t affected, which it is, but that there is a definitely disparity happening in the schools as far as all sports go. If you could see all the pics, the graphs and the lists provided in the story, it would prolly mean more to you.

The reason I didn’t do the link was because the jerky paper it was in requires registering, and I know most people hat doing that if its not some place they’ll regularly go to. The link is http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/143227.html if you want to try it.

The legibility thing did suck, but the truth is, I thought it was more important to get the words down than with the format. IOW, I didn’t want to spend a ton of time trying to get it formatted properly.

Definitely a lazy job by me, and I’m sorry.

This is just another piece of a very strange and what see as an ugly puzzle. Its been almost impossible to not notice that HS baseball in this area at least, has changed very much in its demographics.

As we were standing there for the National Anthem at yesterday’s game, one fellow noticed the same thing I have so many times this season. but he spoke of it right out loud. That led to a running discussion over the next hour or so, that ran from compassion to what most people would call flat out bigotry.

We’re looking at the teams line up down the lines, and what we saw was 40 players and coaches, all either very WASPISH or very Latino. The only black on the field was an assistant coach.

As the discussion progressed, I mentioned that of the 10 teams we’ve played this season. only 3 had any black kids on them. One team had one kid, another had 3, and another had 2. What was most amazing was, although most of the teams were those “wealthy” teams mentioned in the article, several could be easily called “inner city” teams, and one is the oldest school in entire metro area where the school population is a very high percentage of non-wasps.

I’ve recently been in several discussions on another board where I’m taking a pretty good butt whuppin’ for my belief that money has indeed turned baseball into a country club sport, much like golf and tennis. For whatever reasons, the best athletes are turning away and not playing baseball anymore, and IMHO cost is highest on the list.

When in order for a player to get “noticed” his parents have to not only spend the thousands on private coaching, but more thousands on travel teams and showcase events, the system is broken!

Then on top of that, the attitude of most people who disdain any college opportunities other than large D1s, it makes things even worse! Baseball appears to be headin’ down the road of eltism, and there doesn’t seem to be any way to stop it.

-Kyle-
03-24-2007, 03:22 PM
Very interesting article, the post above made me understand it much bettter.

scorekeeper
03-24-2007, 06:12 PM
Very interesting article, the post above made me understand it much bettter.

This is a real difficult topic to discuss because there are a lot of people out there who as soon as you say something “ethnic”, they assume the bigotry is raging and you’re out to destroy the civilized world!

I don’t know about other places, but the differences are so blatant around here, its nearly impossible to miss.

What’s funny is, everyone willing to discuss it, seems to have wildly different views as to why its happening. I’ve seen it blamed on the fact that blacks are migrating to basketball. That one seems pretty funny since a lot of folks feel that they have trouble making grades so they aren’t eligible for baseball. DUH. Ya gotta be academically eligible for basketball, as well as all the other sports too! ;)

I’ve seen it blamed on the Latin countries providing MLB so many players for such low fees, but this is HS ball! To some, the reason is that black kids are not as smart as Latinos. S’cuse me? Dumb is dumb and smart is smart. Some say that poor blacks are poorer than poor Latinos! I laugh at that one because to me poor is poor!

I honestly believe the reasons are much simpler than what a lot of people want to believe. Its simply a matter of how much disposable income people can devote to baseball. If baseball’s important enough, the money can be found no matter what. IMHO, baseball has simply become more important to wasps and Latinos, and as a result, that’s who we see playing the game.

-Kyle-
03-24-2007, 08:49 PM
This is a real difficult topic to discuss because there are a lot of people out there who as soon as you say something “ethnic”, they assume the bigotry is raging and you’re out to destroy the civilized world!

I don’t know about other places, but the differences are so blatant around here, its nearly impossible to miss.

What’s funny is, everyone willing to discuss it, seems to have wildly different views as to why its happening. I’ve seen it blamed on the fact that blacks are migrating to basketball. That one seems pretty funny since a lot of folks feel that they have trouble making grades so they aren’t eligible for baseball. DUH. Ya gotta be academically eligible for basketball, as well as all the other sports too! ;)

I’ve seen it blamed on the Latin countries providing MLB so many players for such low fees, but this is HS ball! To some, the reason is that black kids are not as smart as Latinos. S’cuse me? Dumb is dumb and smart is smart. Some say that poor blacks are poorer than poor Latinos! I laugh at that one because to me poor is poor!

I honestly believe the reasons are much simpler than what a lot of people want to believe. Its simply a matter of how much disposable income people can devote to baseball. If baseball’s important enough, the money can be found no matter what. IMHO, baseball has simply become more important to wasps and Latinos, and as a result, that’s who we see playing the game.
I agree that people respond to harshly to refering to ethnicty, as long as the people talking about are not actually prejudicing against a certain race I can't see the harm.

Mattingly
03-24-2007, 09:37 PM
I've moved this from CE to the Amateur forum, as it deals (even if on a limited basis) with HS baseball.
Good questions all.

The purpose was to show not necessarily that baseball was or wasn’t affected, which it is, but that there is a definitely disparity happening in the schools as far as all sports go. If you could see all the pics, the graphs and the lists provided in the story, it would prolly mean more to you.

The reason I didn’t do the link was because the jerky paper it was in requires registering, and I know most people hat doing that if its not some place they’ll regularly go to. The link is http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/143227.html if you want to try it.
I think that if we could focus moreso on the baseball aspect of things, that would be much more preferable. If you'd like to heavily discuss American football, soccer, track & field, volleyball, tennis, golf, etc, rather than occasional and limited references to these other sports, there may be other "all sport" forums more suited for these discussions.
The legibility thing did suck, but the truth is, I thought it was more important to get the words down than with the format. IOW, I didn’t want to spend a ton of time trying to get it formatted properly.

Definitely a lazy job by me, and I’m sorry.
Did you remove the extra spaces between paragraphs? Whenever I copy & paste, these always seem to be in there already.
This is just another piece of a very strange and what see as an ugly puzzle. Its been almost impossible to not notice that HS baseball in this area at least, has changed very much in its demographics.
In which area is this publication based? I've never heard of it, and how many baseball teams are there? Unless I know of the area, I'm unsure what to think.
As we were standing there for the National Anthem at yesterday’s game, one fellow noticed the same thing I have so many times this season. but he spoke of it right out loud. That led to a running discussion over the next hour or so, that ran from compassion to what most people would call flat out bigotry.

We’re looking at the teams line up down the lines, and what we saw was 40 players and coaches, all either very WASPISH or very Latino. The only black on the field was an assistant coach.

As the discussion progressed, I mentioned that of the 10 teams we’ve played this season. only 3 had any black kids on them. One team had one kid, another had 3, and another had 2. What was most amazing was, although most of the teams were those “wealthy” teams mentioned in the article, several could be easily called “inner city” teams, and one is the oldest school in entire metro area where the school population is a very high percentage of non-wasps.
I think we've had discussions in the past under CE (Current Events) about the lack of black involvement in sports. Pretty much, you'll see more blacks in football and basketball (both pro and collegiate), so I believe that it would need to be looked at the various sports that blacks actually do play.

The World Series will never enjoy the crazy ratings that the Super Bowl has, and how often do you see collegiate baseball games and rivalries being promoted on TV? Happens all the time with college gridiron and hoops. Therefore, perhaps black college athletes may have simply preferred more popular sports.
I’ve recently been in several discussions on another board where I’m taking a pretty good butt whuppin’ for my belief that money has indeed turned baseball into a country club sport, much like golf and tennis. For whatever reasons, the best athletes are turning away and not playing baseball anymore, and IMHO cost is highest on the list.

When in order for a player to get “noticed” his parents have to not only spend the thousands on private coaching, but more thousands on travel teams and showcase events, the system is broken!

Then on top of that, the attitude of most people who disdain any college opportunities other than large D1s, it makes things even worse! Baseball appears to be headin’ down the road of eltism, and there doesn’t seem to be any way to stop it.
Please elaborate upon this. Which are examples of the best athletes you're referring to, and why, because their parents did not invest as you'd mentioned, were they unable to secure more notice from or better scholarships, invites, etc from colleges?

Oh yeah, what's a D1?

brewcrew82
03-24-2007, 11:35 PM
Oh yeah, what's a D1?

Division 1 school.

TonyK
03-25-2007, 11:19 AM
I think SK's article has some good points. Unless parent volunteers offer to help out, a school baseball program faces years of mediocrity. Talented HS players are overlooked by colleges because the team behind them is weak. Surround a decent pitcher with several screwups and chances are nobody is going to notice his 0.50 ERA if he is giving up 7 runs per game. The guy with two nice hits won't get the same attention if his team is losing by ten runs every game.

What prevents poorer high schools from installing a weight room to benefit both the boys and girls? Are there local summer baseball leagues that these kids can play in for under $50? Can the parents fundraise to raise money for youth baseball?

I have seen youth programs "carry" a poorer family right through HS. Their kids don't pay league fees, they are given new uniforms and team jackets at no cost to them, and used equipment is offered to them when needed. It's part of being a member of the team where those that have help those that don't.

scorekeeper
03-25-2007, 12:28 PM
I've moved this from CE to the Amateur forum, as it deals (even if on a limited basis) with HS baseball.
That’s fine with me.

I think that if we could focus moreso on the baseball aspect of things, that would be much more preferable. If you'd like to heavily discuss American football, soccer, track & field, volleyball, tennis, golf, etc, rather than occasional and limited references to these other sports, there may be other "all sport" forums more suited for these discussions.
And that’s OK too. The article wasn’t even in the sports section of the paper, it was news. To me it was indicative of a phenomenon happening in all sports, but was definitely showing up in baseball.

Did you remove the extra spaces between paragraphs? Whenever I copy & paste, these always seem to be in there already.
As I said in a previous post, I’ve tried to post the URL to stories in that paper before, but as far as I know, in order to have access, the user has to log into, and that takes either setting up an account or having the article e-mailed. If anyone wants to try to get the story straight from the paper and thus get to see all of the graphs and charts, its http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/143227.html

In which area is this publication based? I've never heard of it, and how many baseball teams are there? Unless I know of the area, I'm unsure what to think.
The paper is the Sacramento Bee. There are 174 High Schools and Junior High Schools in the immediate area.

I think we've had discussions in the past under CE (Current Events) about the lack of black involvement in sports. Pretty much, you'll see more blacks in football and basketball (both pro and collegiate), so I believe that it would need to be looked at the various sports that blacks actually do play.
I’ve tried to get the writers of the article to go more into that aspect, but so far with no luck.

The World Series will never enjoy the crazy ratings that the Super Bowl has, and how often do you see collegiate baseball games and rivalries being promoted on TV? Happens all the time with college gridiron and hoops. Therefore, perhaps black college athletes may have simply preferred more popular sports.
True, but the operative word there is “MAY”. Why would any particular group, whether it be ethnic, religious, area, political, or whatever, choose one sport over another?

People in this country don’t embrace soccer the way other countries do. That would be an area thing, and at least understandable. Its never been a secret that blacks don’t play a lot of tennis or golf, and that would be an ethnic thing, but it is probably based on socio-economics too.

But, I don’t know for sure if what I’m personally seeing here is a nationwide trend, either in the ethnicity of the players or in the overwhelming statistics the paper provided for the superiority in sports of “rich” schools over “poor” ones. I was hoping to see if there are others who with some kind of empirical evidence, could either substantiate or refute what the article said.

Please elaborate upon this. Which are examples of the best athletes you're referring to,
I can’t give “specific” examples, but if one tries to keep up with the current affairs of baseball, they would have to keep their head buried in sand not hear all of the whining and lamenting about how great athletes are turning away from baseball for other sports, and it starts in pre-pubescence.

The subject has come up on various sports shows, bulletin boards like this one, newsaper and magazine articles, as time filler discussions during games, as well as just in casual conversations at ball fields everywhere.

If you want to read a sample of what others have to say, Google “blacks baseball”, “baseball ethnic” or any of a number of other things that will show you there is definitely some discussion on the matter.

and why, because their parents did not invest as you'd mentioned, were they unable to secure more notice from or better scholarships, invites, etc from colleges?
Now that one I can speak to! ;)

Just yesterday I got suspended from a different bulletin board because I was arguing with the fellow who founded and evidently owns Perfect Game. He gave the name of a now “top prospect” who had been missed by them and evidently everyone else, and had ended up in an “obscure” Texas college.

He further stated that the boy had gone to a HS in Ca that was highly scouted, and in fact had a 1st round draft pick taken from it, but still the boy fell through the cracks and was attending a school which typically those kids of players don’t have to go to.

He went on about how PG has that vast data base that colleges and pro use to identify the top players, and I don’t doubt that for a moment. He also said that data base didn’t only come from the showcase events and tournaments they produce, but was also made up of observations they make at events like the Area Code games, the Jr Olys, etc.

So, according to him, and his cronies on that bulletin board who have so many kids playing at the best schools and well as in pro ball and the ML, if a player really wants to get noticed, they definitely need to go the route that unfortunately does take a lot of resources to travel.

Our difference of opinions came when someone asked how they could get their son noticed, but not just on the radar, but rather: I am trying to find out how to get my son noticed by D-I colleges or any pro scouts for a possible draft right out of high school. My son is 16 years old (17 this April 24th), 6'4" tall, 175 lbs, and is currently a junior in high school. His fastball tops out at 90 mph and tails off as it reaches the plate, his curveball averages in the mid to upper 70s and moves from the 2 o'clock position to the 7 or 8 o'clock position with a span of break of about 18 inches (right to left), and his change-up averages about 75 mph with a delivery that looks like his fastball delivery.

When people offered the typical advice to get on a better team, play tournaments, go to showcases, etc., all I said was that a pitcher with those kinds of credentials was already on the radar, and that’s when all He** broke loose!

So while I do believe truly good players will get seen, much as what baseball dogma has suggested over its 150 years, times evidently have changed! According to these people, the only way to really make sure of getting the best opportunity is to get out there and spend the bucks, much like companies advertise their products.

Well, some people simply don’t have the bucks!

scorekeeper
03-25-2007, 01:16 PM
Tony,

Those are all good points, and I sure don’t disagree in general! It is wonderful to see those kinds off things happen, and although they aren’t rare, there’s still no way all of the kids who need that help are getting it.

However I do make distinctions between the “top” players and all of the players who can play ball in college and beyond.

IMHO, any above average starter in HS has the capacity to play either college or pro ball. But even in that group, there are different levels. Let’s forget about all but the very top pitching prospects for a moment, and define them as being HS Jrs or better, able to hit 90 on the gun, 6’ or better tall, 175# or better, and with the ability to throw at least one other quality pitch.

Some might disagree, but I’m guessing that only represents the top 1% of HS P’s in the country, and that’s a pretty lofty group. The guy from perfect game says they see hundreds of those guys every year, but still, when you look at all of the HS P’s who are Jr’s or above, there’s a boat load of P’s.

I think the definition I gave is far enough above the “decent” P you spoke of, that its extremely unlikely he won’t get a lot of attention, even in the places where people like CADad say the top HS have as many as 4 guys like that, and some sit the bench. I may certainly be wrong, but something tells me those guys are so rare, even in the very weakest baseball areas, they are definitely on lots of radar screens.

Those other players though, is where there’s a major problem. They may be pretty good, but don’t meet the profile, have the money to gain wide notoriety, or perhaps have the grades to justify getting a ship on the skills they have, and end up going to JUCO’s, DII, III, or NAIA schools.

But even then, as long as they’re getting playing opps, they still have a chance to advance. What’s always seemed crazy to me is how much everyone wants the prestige of playing at a big D1, but its not as though all D1 players get drafted!

TonyK
03-25-2007, 06:13 PM
Tony,

Those are all good points, and I sure don’t disagree in general! It is wonderful to see those kinds off things happen, and although they aren’t rare, there’s still no way all of the kids who need that help are getting it.

However I do make distinctions between the “top” players and all of the players who can play ball in college and beyond.

IMHO, any above average starter in HS has the capacity to play either college or pro ball. But even in that group, there are different levels. Let’s forget about all but the very top pitching prospects for a moment, and define them as being HS Jrs or better, able to hit 90 on the gun, 6’ or better tall, 175# or better, and with the ability to throw at least one other quality pitch.

Some might disagree, but I’m guessing that only represents the top 1% of HS P’s in the country, and that’s a pretty lofty group. The guy from perfect game says they see hundreds of those guys every year, but still, when you look at all of the HS P’s who are Jr’s or above, there’s a boat load of P’s.

I think the definition I gave is far enough above the “decent” P you spoke of, that its extremely unlikely he won’t get a lot of attention, even in the places where people like CADad say the top HS have as many as 4 guys like that, and some sit the bench. I may certainly be wrong, but something tells me those guys are so rare, even in the very weakest baseball areas, they are definitely on lots of radar screens.

Those other players though, is where there’s a major problem. They may be pretty good, but don’t meet the profile, have the money to gain wide notoriety, or perhaps have the grades to justify getting a ship on the skills they have, and end up going to JUCO’s, DII, III, or NAIA schools.

But even then, as long as they’re getting playing opps, they still have a chance to advance. What’s always seemed crazy to me is how much everyone wants the prestige of playing at a big D1, but its not as though all D1 players get drafted!

I think JUCO's are taking some of the athletes you are describing. In my area most of the opportunities for HS pitchers are at Div III schools and JUCO's. There just aren't many Div I schools nearby, and I don't think my son's HS has ever had a major Div I baseball player. Our local Div III school's coach told HS parents at a clinic that some of his players had Div I scholarships. Either their grades went south or they got sick of sitting on the bench. Now they are the big fish in the little pond at our state school.

I imagine some of the HS players you are talking about in CA don't even know what their weaknesses are or how to improve them.

I read an article about two HS soccer teams in LA playing for a Sectional title or the local championship. One was mostly Latino players and the other was an upper crust travel team. The upper crust team won mainly because of greater experience, and not because of more athletic ability according to the reporter.

scorekeeper
03-25-2007, 07:02 PM
I think JUCO's are taking some of the athletes you are describing. In my area most of the opportunities for HS pitchers are at Div III schools and JUCO's. There just aren't many Div I schools nearby, and I don't think my son's HS has ever had a major Div I baseball player. Our local Div III school's coach told HS parents at a clinic that some of his players had Div I scholarships. Either their grades went south or they got sick of sitting on the bench. Now they are the big fish in the little pond at our state school.
Now that’s reality!

I just looked it up and saw that there are 287 D1 baseball colleges. Under the upcoming rules, that’s a tad over 10,000 rostered players total. divide that by 4 to get a rough idea about ho many Frosh will make the roster(real generous), and you get just over 2,500.

Considering how many HS baseball players are seniors, that makes the odds of getting that big D1 ship look pretty slim.

Neat article about the probability of continuing play.
http://www.ncaa.org/research/prob_of_competing/probability_of_competing2.html


I imagine some of the HS players you are talking about in CA don't even know what their weaknesses are or how to improve them.
LOL!

Actually, we’ve prolly got more “EGGSPURTS” per square yard out here than anyplace else in the country, and they’re all ready, willin’, and able to tell you not only how great you are, how much potential you have if you’ll just let them work with you, what every weakness you have is, and exactly how to guarantee how to correct it, if only you’ll come up with that cash “INVESTMENT”!

All kidding aside, unless someone really believes in fairies and that all coaches are great people who are all knowing, it would be ludicrous to think that at least the same percentage of kids aren’t out there who have fixable weaknesses, as there is of coaches who are, shall we say, lacking.

I read an article about two HS soccer teams in LA playing for a Sectional title or the local championship. One was mostly Latino players and the other was an upper crust travel team. The upper crust team won mainly because of greater experience, and not because of more athletic ability according to the reporter.
Isn’t that the way it usually works once the game gets under way? Most successful teams need both talent, and the experience to know how to use it. Teams like Ohio State’s basketball team, where the talent level is so high they can overcome the lack of experience, are really rare.

bbjunkie
04-01-2007, 08:40 AM
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I live in a school district that is centered in a poor small town. We have a somewhat different ethnic mix than most discussed in this thread, but it is analogous in some respects.

However, my impressions still focus on poverty. I coached LL here for 6 years and my son is now on the JV team. The town has LL up to 12yo, BR after that and JV and V school ball. There are no club or travel teams near enough or cheap enough for most parents in this area to take advantage of. With very few exceptions the kids here play only in those organizations.

My kid is one of the exceptions. He played on a travel fall ball team a couple years ago and is practicing with a 13U travel team this year. They start play next month. So, I've seen what a difference money and organization can make. His travel team is professionally run by guys who have pro and college experience and the practices are top notch. His 13U team could run circles around his JV team and probably beat the V team more times than not.

The big problem that I see locally that is different in wealthier communities is organization. The wealthier areas tend to have lots of parents and coaches who understand and practice building feeder systems that bring kids along from Tball to HS and travel, understanding the importance of teaching fundamentals and building on those fundamentals. You don't have to be wealthy to do that, but you have to have an understanding of how successful organizations work. That is much more prevalent in wealthier communities.

By contrast, our small town has no vision of building for the future. The politics in LL are corrosive and there is no opportunity for coaches to learn from others in the league or outside it. Everyone is trying to build little kingdoms based on a few studs. They don't learn how to run efficient practices and most are running on what they learned playing locally decades ago.

Once the kids age out of LL, the survivors play BR and, if they're good enough, HS. Our V coach is quite good and the closest thing this town has to a real professional. Unfortunately, there is no feeder system in place that can teach and take advantage of the best local talent. I now know every kid playing in HS and have known them since LL. There is some real talent in this town that just isn't being taught and allowed to develop a love of the game. Unfortunately, we lose a lot of kids to lacrosse, a sport that is better organized due to some demographic characteristics I won't go into here.

I will use my own experience to illustrate the point I'm trying to get at. I started coaching my son's LL minors team 6 years ago (his 2nd year) because no one else would. I freely admitted then and now that I knew next to nothing about coaching and little about baseball. Fortunately, a couple parents who knew a little more than I did volunteered to help and we managed to put together a team that did pretty well that year.

The next year my son and I moved up to a majors team that one of the mothers managed because no one else would. She knew little, but was willing to go to the meetings and do the paperwork. It was not a very successful year. I managed the next year and had a couple of dads help. Over the years, with a lot of work on our parts and education we went out of our way to find, we built an organization that by any measure is the best in the league. What we earned from the rest of the league was a lot of anger and envy. By slight of hand and backroom politics the league made sure that none of us ever managed an AS team, even though our kids were always disproportionately represented on the teams. We did, however, put together teams to play in local tournaments after the LLAS team was eliminated from LL tournament play. The kids always had fun, and they saw that they could play with some very good teams from wealthier suburban leagues.

And, because we got some kids on the tournament teams who were pretty much wash outs in LL, we found some diamonds in the rough and were able to turn them into competent ball players in relatively short times. These were kids whose coaches hadn’t taught them the fundamentals because they were either working nearly exclusively with the studs or didn’t know the fundamentals themselves. In either case it’s a sad commentary on the league.

This digression was in way of illustrating what I think is one of the greatest impediments to developing good sports programs in poor communities. It isn’t lack of talent or money, it’s lack of organizational skills.

Jake Patterson
04-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Dirt:
I edited the origimal post and eliminated your post. Thanks for the help...

Mattingly:
We have had numerous discussions on Baseball 101 about parents and coaches placing unhealthy emphasis on youth athletics. See the thread titled Diaper Ball. This organization is starting a 2U team.... Sad...

The article raises numerous questions with regards to where we are going with athletics as a society and exposes many of the problems we now face as coaches. Here's an article I presented at a recent coaches clinic. 22177

As a country we are out of control with regards to parent's expectations of their children. Families regularly move to different schools based on their athletic programs or coaching staffs in spite of the limited numbers who play college or the pros. What drives all this is the ridiculous money we pay pros. How can a guy playing ball make more money in eight weeks than the President does in eight years? Or an Astronaut? (Not looking for answers - I have them) Just pointing out what does it say about our society?

The problem is this all rolls down hill. AAU, TB, USSSA, Showcase Baseball, Privates schools, personal instructors, Diaper Ball (I think I coined that), etc, etc have bled NOT JUST the poorer schools, but the average schools. Now if you're not paying $5,000.00 per year for your child's "athletic development" you're not doing what it takes to make them successful.

The cost for all this? The best part of what the game can give us and our children.

Title IX did a lot for female sports, maybe we need another law that controls $/athlete.


Jake

Jake Patterson
04-01-2007, 06:11 PM
We’re looking at the teams line up down the lines, and what we saw was 40 players and coaches, all either very WASPISH or very Latino. The only black on the field was an assistant coach.

Much of this is driven by the recent migration from rec ball to travel ball. Many feel that the route to competative ball can only be achieved by participating in TB. This is bad on several different levels and would take a great deal of time to discuss properly. TB is typically played by wealthier families making it difficult for lower income families to participate. This good and bad as it gives them both an advantage and a means of destroying talent prematurely.

There are also those who posit that changing dynamics in minority socioeconomic groups are further complicating the problem. Here's an article written in 2003 about vanashing Black players. It would be interesting to have an update...22196

scorekeeper
04-01-2007, 07:10 PM
Much of this is driven by the recent migration from rec ball to travel ball. Many feel that the route to competative ball can only be achieved by participating in TB. This is bad on several different levels and would take a great deal of time to discuss properly. TB is typically played by wealthier families making it difficult for lower income families to participate. This good and bad as it gives them both an advantage and a means of destroying talent prematurely.

There are also those who posit that changing dynamics in minority socioeconomic groups are further complicating the problem. Here's an article written in 2003 about vanashing Black players. It would be interesting to have an update...22196

Here’s as close to an update as I know about. The 2006 report should be out in the next couple of months.
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/sport/public/downloads/2005_Racial_Gender_Report_Card_MLB.pdf

The conclusion I’ve come to, and believe me, this is only MHO, is that while the sheer numbers of ball players has increased in this country, the widespread appeal it once enjoyed has diminished greatly. That widespread appeal is what made it possible to get the “best” athletes possible to stay in the game, and eventually reach the highest echelons of the sport.

That isn’t to imply the “best” athletes available aren’t making it to the top now though! All it means is, not nearly as high a percentage of athletes are sticking with baseball, and all that does is allow “lesser” athletes in the door at the top.

When you look at baseball, until the color barrier was broken, roughly a third of all the best players and athletes, were left out of the equation. For the years from 1950 thru 1980, baseball literally got athletes from every ethnic group, and the game was the better for it.

But since the 80’s, things have headed into a different direction. Baseball in other countries has made tremendous progress in catching up with baseball here, and that’s why there are so many foreign born players, and why there will be even more in the very near future. IOW, the competition for those coveted slots has increased greatly, and will continue to do so.

Jake Patterson
04-01-2007, 08:50 PM
Thanks for the report... Looking forward to reading it.