Most Ideal Leadoff Hitter

[julusnc]

#1 Rickey Henderson (no contest)
#2 Tim Raines (could have been better if he had avoided drugs and played on an American team)
#3 Lou Brock (he was awesome but should have been better)
#4 Richie Ashburn (couple batting titles and elite defense)
#5 ?
#6 ?
#7 ?
#8 ?
#9 ?
#10 ?

I would like to know who you think are the top 10 greatest leadoff hitters in Major League Baseball history.

I just think of how good Vince Coleman was in the mid 1980's.I wish he had been able to have a full career.

[Edgartohof]

I think that Ichiro warrants a spot on that list. While it may be a bit early to put him in the top 5, it would not be unreasonable to put him in around 7-8.

[Windy City Fan]

Interesting question. Henderson is clearly the best, and Raines is up there.

I'd like to submit Billy Hamilton's name into the mix. I don't know if he batted lead off back in his day, but in the modern game he would make a terrific lead off hitter.

Career 141 OPS.
912 steals.
1187 walks in 14 years.
.344 BA.
.455 OBP.
1690 Runs.

[Edgartohof]

Actually now that I think about it, with what Ichiro has already done, he has earned to be in the top 5.

(even if you do not count any of his stats from japan.
i.e. he would now have 2000 hits - at age 30,
The nine batting titles - 8 consecutive, 7 in Japan, and assuming he gets it this year)

[RuthMayBond]

What spot did Cobb bat in?

[Imapotato]

Cobb batted 3rd
so didn't Hamilton...whose steals and walks are misleading, since their were no foul strike rule AND he got a SB for stretching a single into a double

but Cobb had a good and a GREAT leadoff hitter

The good was Davy "Kangaroo" Jones

The great is a man lost in history

Donie Bush...from 1909-1920 Bush was top 5 in walks and top 10 in steals and Times on Base...and was a very good sac hit man

Another good leadoff man who is known mainly as a manager...was Miller Huggins

Mighty Mite Huggins was usually top 5 in BBS, and top ten in steals

Dode Paskert...another good leadoff hitter...he was a better CF than even Speaker and Mays...if only he could hit better...yet he was on top with BBs and steals...too bad he K'd alot as well...he was much like Lou Brock...way too little offense...Paskert doesn't belong on my list...and I think Brock drops to 8th

Early on...I'd say Ginger Beaumont, Frank Isbell, Nixey Callahan

Huggins I would drop to 10...since Huggins left to manage...and was inconsistent

Davy Jones no.

But another great man was Max "Scoops" Carey from 1914 to 1927 top ten in walks...and usually 1st in SBS! and top 5 in total bases.

Carey would go ahead of Brock def. Ahead of Raines and his sporadic career, but not behind Bush, who was much better at BBS and sac. hits.

But for this poll, only Donie Bush, Max Carey and Miller Huggins stand out in my mind as great leadoff hitters...and Bush I would put 3rd right behind Henderson...look at his "leadoff stats"

So if Bush is 3rd and Henderson 2nd...whose 1st?

Eddie Collins of course!!

so I would put

1) Collins
2) Henderson
3) Bush
4) Ashburn
5)Raines
6)Carey
7)
8)Brock
9)
10) Huggins

[dgarza]

#2 Tim Raines (could have been better if he had avoided drugs and played on an American team)

Can we update this a few decades to current terminology?
"American" means concerning North & South America.
I'm guessing you are referring to a "US" team.

[dgarza]

Is there a quick and reliable source to determine batting orders and where a player typically batted in the order?

[bf-lurker]

So if Bush is 3rd and Henderson 2nd...whose 1st?

Eddie Collins of course!!



I think Eddie Collins normally batted 3rd.

[julusnc]

I thought I read Collins batted 2 and 3 for most of his career.

[julusnc]

Tim Raines would have been more recognized if he had played his prime years with a United States of America Major League Baseball franchise :)

[Eddie Collins]

Thank goodness someone mentioned max carey!


What about Vince Coleman, Maury Wills, Kenny Lofton, and Ozzie Smith?

[Eddie Collins]

and louis aparicio?

[leecemark]

--Quite a few of the players mentioned here had great speed, but weren't especially good at getting on base. I'll take the latter and nominate Wade Boggs for a top 5 spot.

[ElHalo]

You want great speed AND great OBP...

A couple of HoF snubs have to get mentioned here... somebody mentioned Donie Bush, so...

Topsy Hartsel:
.276/.384/.370, 30 SB/162

Roy Thomas:
.290/.413/.333, 27 SB/162

Jimmie Sheckard:
.274/.375/.378, 35 SB/162

[Imapotato]

I thought I read Collins batted 2 and 3 for most of his career.

With the White Sox...he started batting 1st and switched to 2nd when Morrie Rath came...I believe Weaver was the #2 hitter, Jackson 3rd, Gandil 4th...after 1920 he started batting 3rd

With the powerful A's he was a leadoff man in the start. HR Baker was 3rd, Socks Seybold and then Danny Murphy, Eddie Murphy were 4th. McGinnis IIRC was the #2 man

[Imapotato]

You want great speed AND great OBP...

A couple of HoF snubs have to get mentioned here... somebody mentioned Donie Bush, so...

Topsy Hartsel:
.276/.384/.370, 30 SB/162

Roy Thomas:
.290/.413/.333, 27 SB/162

Jimmie Sheckard:
.274/.375/.378, 35 SB/162

Hartsel was a #3 or #2 guy for the Cubs and A's...for the Cubs..Cupid Childs was leadoff in 1901...and Dave Fultz and then Ollie Pickering was leadoff for the A's

Thomas batted 2nd or 3rd...Kid Gleason was the leadoff man

Sheckard was a #3 and #4 hitter...he had some power. Plus guys like Dahlen, Tinker, Chance were more speedy

and that's the thing...it was speed...cause OBP wasn't even a headache yet

[antihipster]

Henderson
Raines
Brock
Coleman
Wilson

[Tomahawk Chop]

Rickey Henderson has to be the best of all time, with Tim Raines a close second. But there's a lot to choose from after that...didn't Pete Rose lead off for the Big Red Machine in the '70s?

I'd like to nominate Otis Nixon for most underrated lead-off man ever. Yeah, his picture is in the dictionary next to "late bloomer," but it still blows my mind that he had a seven or eight year run as a lead-off machine and never made an All-Star team even once. I remember whenever he would get on base for the Braves in the early '90s--which was pretty often--he would drive the pitcher absolutely insane, thus making him more likely to lose his concentration in pitching to the man at the plate, which in my mind is the lead-off man's job description in a nutshell.

[Imapotato]

I thought Otis Nixon's picture was next to "Ugliest man Alive", in fact he was so ugly...they had to blur his picture on his baseball card, so that kids wouldn't be scared to go to bed.

[janduscframe]

Paul Molitor."The Ignitor". You can't leave him off,can yah?

[KHenry14]

Well, Rickey is easily the best of all time. Rock Raines was excellent for a number of years, and Maury Wills changed games with his speed.

But I am surprised that no one has mentioned Bobby Bonds. The first power hitter to ever lead off, he added a dimension to the Giants offense that no one had ever seen before. Now if he'd only cut down on his strikeouts a bit, he could very well have been in the top 3.

Also Earle Combs was the starting CF for the great Yankee teams of the 20's, avg. 325 over his career with a ton of doubles/triples and runs. Obviously having Murderer's Row hitting behind him helped with this, but I think he deserves to be mentioned as a fine outfielder and table setter.

KH14

[burger eater]

I just think of how good Vince Coleman was in the mid 1980's.I wish he had been able to have a full career.

Me too, too bad he couldn't stay healthy and not be an idiot.

I'd go with:

Henderson
Brock
Raines
Coleman

Coleman is in my eyes, one of the saddest cases of "what could have been"
since I've been a baseball fan. I like a lead-off hitter who can run... they help win games by bunting, turning slow rollers into hits, getting extra bases easily and stealing bases. Coleman did all of that. The only reason I'd rank him with these players at all is Coleman was the better base-stealer/runner of the bunch. Possibly the best base-stealer/runner ever.
Unfortunately he only played 5 FULL seasons and parts of several others. But, those 5 seasons he played full-time were amazing and he was the setup guy that ignited the running game that led the Cardinals to the world series twice. Rickey holds the SB record and was the best leadoff man ever, but Coleman was a better baserunner. I like stolen bases, it sounds illegal... like they shouldn't be doing it.

Coleman stole .569 bases per game
Rickey stole .459 per game

Coleman's SB% was .809
Rickey's was .808

But Rickey out-hit Coleman and definitely out-classed him.

If Ichiro finishes out his career playing anything like he does now, he'll be #1

[HDH]

These 3 standout more than others. I think Pete Rose was better than Rickey. Rose was faster than most give him credit for. Hamilton was a scoring machine. If he keeps going, Ichiro makes my list.



1 Billy Hamilton
2 Pete Rose
3 Rickey Henderson

[MudvilleMike]

Dom Dimaggio definitely is on the list. What a pity WW2 interreupted what should have been considered a HOF career (he still should be in the HOF, but had there been no war he easily would be).

Times on Base
1941-262-6
1942-254-7
1946-236-8
1948-288-3
1949-284-4
1950-279-5
1951-264-4

Runs
1941-117-3
1942-110-3
1946-85-9
1948-127-2
1949-126-3
1950-131-1
1951-113-1

All-Star
1941
1942
1946
1949
1950
1951
1952

http://www.motivational-celebrity-speakers.com/players/domdimaggio.gif

[MudvilleMike]

These 3 standout more than others. I think Pete Rose was better than Rickey.

I'm a big Pete Rose fan, but I can't even fathom the argument that Rose was better than Rickey Henderson. Because of the hit record? That's like saying Dave Kingman was better than Joe DiMaggio because he hit more homers.

[RuthMayBond]

These 3 standout more than others. I think Pete Rose was better than Rickey. Rose was faster than most give him credit for.
1 Billy Hamilton
2 Pete Rose
3 Rickey HendersonWas Rose fast enough to have over 1400 SB? Was Rose fast enough to have 200 SB?

[Edgartohof]

I now more than ever truly believe that after this past season, that Ichiro deserves a spot on that list. And depending on how long he stays in this league, he could challenge for the number 2 spot, and be the closest challenger to the #1 spot (yes I know that is kind of repetitive, but so what)

200+ hits/season
30-40 SB/season
.300+ BA/season

2 batting titles
SB title
.372 BA/RISP this past season - led the league (unfortunately his team could not seem to get a lot of men on base....Don't get me started)

the list could go on, but I think you get the picture.

No I do not think he is challenging Rickey's spot, it will take several more years before that should even be mentioned - but I am not taking out that possibility if what we have seen from him (Ichiro) continues many more years

[HDH]

I'm likely a little older than most on this site. Anyone who watched Rose before he was fat can testify of what I say; Rose was more alert than anyone on the field, took extra bases when the defense wasn't expecting and could steal when needed. He even got the most from of an out. If he knew he was going to get thrown out on the bases, he would stop and make the fielders come and get him in order to allow the other runners to move up or score. He did that regularily. The goal for the top of the order is to get on base and score. Both Rose and Rickey did that better than anyone. If you think Rickey was better, that's OK with me. I know what I saw and my opinion is that Rose was a little better of a leadoff hitter. Henderson's was a great base stealer; Rose was a great base runner.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Which of these guys do you think would be the most ideal leadoff hitter?


Pre-1999 Bonds
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson

[Minstrel]

Henderson. What I can't get over is how often he walked when that was the last thing pitchers wanted to do. Bonds recently broke Henderson's walk record, but it was nowhere near as impressive to me, as pitchers often wanted to walk Bonds purposely. Henderson was the last guy any pitcher wanted to walk and he still drew them routinely.

Combining that with his great speed, brilliant base running and compact power, I doubt if I could design a better "lead-off hitter."

Of course, I think the concept of a lead-off hitter is a little overrated (you want the best possible players in every spot of the lineup; I'd happily take a lineup of 9 prime Barry Bondses or Babe Ruths even if Henderson was a superior "lead-off hitter"), but if you want someone to fill that traditional role, Rickey seems like the guy.

[-Kyle-]

Henderson was a no-brainer.

[Wade8813]

I agree with what Minstrel just said. In reality, you want the best players 1-9. However, for the traditional roll of leadoff hitter, Rickey is it out of these.

[KCGHOST]

I couldn't figure out whether to vote for Barry or Bobby so I went with Rickey.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Barry Bonds wasn't a leadoff guy after 1989 I believe.

[plask_stirlac]

Henderson is most ideal, probably.

I would choose Bonds to lead off for me long term (assuming he's willing), unless we can cherry pick Rickey's best seasons. I would also choose post-1999 Barry, though. I mean even if they're dead even (and they aren't), Bonds played in more games per season. I can't find an inefficiency other than self-concept as a 3-4 hitter that would make me reject Bonds, who hit much better.

[Old Sweater]

Voted Henderson. Morgan just was leadoff for the Astros, batted 2nd and 3rd mostly after that.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Not who the best "leadoff hitter" was but which of these guys would be the most ideal.

[Old Sweater]

Not who the best "leadoff hitter" was but which of these guys would be the most ideal.

OK I see. Wouldn't the best, be the most ideal, to most though?

[Minstrel]

OK I see. Wouldn't the best, be the most ideal, to most though?

I guess the idea is you can also consider people who never batted leadoff but you think would have been perfect to do so.

[Westlake]

Henderson.

Typical, Minstrel.

:p

[Colorado Express]

I have a hard time believing that it could be anyone other than Henderson. Great eye, phenominal speed and good power...the total package.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I guess the idea is you can also consider people who never batted leadoff but you think would have been perfect to do so.


Yeah that's the idea, or possibly if you think Henderson was the most ideal you cna vote him too.

[Minstrel]

Typical, Minstrel.

:p

Always being right and all?

:coffee

[USAF1]

Just out of curiousity, who/how would you rank the best leadoff hitters all-time?

[Edgartohof]

1.) Rickey Henderson
..
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..
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.
.
.
.
.
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2.) Ummm.....?
3) Lou Brock?

[ChrisLDuncan]

Tim Raines

[CTaka]

Outside of Rickey Henderson, I think Billy Hamilton was as good a leadoff hitter as anyone else.

[PepperMartin]

A lot of people seem to interpret this as "greatest player who happened to bat leadoff."

I would interpret it as best guy to have in the leadoff spot. If that's the case it's probably Eddie Collins or Rickey Henderson, but I would also like to point out who I think is the most underrated leadoff hitter of all time - Max "Camera Eye" Bishop.

Although he wasn't a base stealer, he has the 2nd highest career OBP among leadoff hitters, and the 3rd highest walk rate among any hitter ever (1 BB every 5.01 PA), trailing only Ted Williams and Barry Bonds.

I made a full thread on him here:
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=61781

[Honus Wagner Rules]

No love for Brett Butler?

.290/.377/.376 for a career. In his best years he'd hit over .300, .390-400 OBP, 40-50 SB, 100+ runs.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

A lot of people seem to interpret this as "greatest player who happened to bat leadoff."

I would interpret it as best guy to have in the leadoff spot. If that's the case it's probably Eddie Collins or Rickey Henderson, but I would also like to point out who I think is the most underrated leadoff hitter of all time - Max "Camera Eye" Bishop.

Although he wasn't a base stealer, he has the 2nd highest career OBP among leadoff hitters, and the 3rd highest walk rate among any hitter ever (1 BB every 5.01 PA), trailing only Ted Williams and Barry Bonds.

I made a full thread on him here:
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=61781

Bishop was a poor contact hitter. He played in one of the most offensive eras in baseball history and he hits .271? In 1930 when the NL hit .303 as a league Bishop hit .252. That is just terrible relative to the league. Large walk totals can't make up for that. I believe a good leadoff guy should draw walks and hit for a good batting average. Power and SBs are gravy.

[cardsfanatic]

I now more than ever truly believe that after this past season, that Ichiro deserves a spot on that list. And depending on how long he stays in this league, he could challenge for the number 2 spot, and be the closest challenger to the #1 spot (yes I know that is kind of repetitive, but so what)

200+ hits/season
30-40 SB/season
.300+ BA/season

2 batting titles
SB title
.372 BA/RISP this past season - led the league (unfortunately his team could not seem to get a lot of men on base....Don't get me started)

the list could go on, but I think you get the picture.

No I do not think he is challenging Rickey's spot, it will take several more years before that should even be mentioned - but I am not taking out that possibility if what we have seen from him (Ichiro) continues many more years

Heh, and you have the unmitigated gall to call other people homers. Sweet jesus.

[Edgartohof]

Heh, and you have the unmitigated gall to call other people homers. Sweet jesus.

Are you TRYING to piss everyone off? Or does it just come naturally?

[cardsfanatic]

Are you TRYING to piss everyone off? Or does it just come naturally?

Don't flatter yourself. You're not "everyone". I just find it funny that you constantly lay sloppy wet ones down for all Mariner players and devote your log in name to Edgar Martinez for the HOF (lol, should never happen...) and then call someone else a homer. The vast majority of my posts on this forum have next to nothing to do with the Cardinals or their players. Every time I read a post from you it's about King Felix being a lock for the AL CY, Ichiro being a top five lead off man of all-time (and that post was from 2004! Jumping the gun much???) or what have you.

You sir, have no room to call anyone a homer. Ever again. Well, unless you happen to be staring in a mirror. G'day.

[CTaka]

No love for Brett Butler?

.290/.377/.376 for a career. In his best years he'd hit over .300, .390-400 OBP, 40-50 SB, 100+ runs.

Butler was one of my favorite players. A top notch leadoff hitter and class act. I just don't think he was quite as good as Henderson or Hamilton as leadoff hitters, but he's definitely in that next echelon.

[Chisox]

Bishop was a poor contact hitter. He played in one of the most offensive eras in baseball history and he hits .271? In 1930 when the NL hit .303 as a league Bishop hit .252. That is just terrible relative to the league. Large walk totals can't make up for that. I believe a good leadoff guy should draw walks and hit for a good batting average. Power and SBs are gravy.

Who cares what his batting average is? His OBP was .423 compared to the league average of .365. Rickey wasn't exactly challenging Boggs for league titles, either. Rickey's OBP was .401 compared to league average of .327. That's 116 for Bishop compared to 123 for Rickey. BTW, Rickey hit .279 compared to the league's .260. Both were terrific of getting on base, and walking was the only thing that seperating either of them from the pack in that regard. I know Bishop was poor at BA hitting only .271 compared to the league's .296. Rickey's BA+ is 107 compared to Bishop's 92. However, the difference between .279 and .271 is about 3-4 hits/season. Even adjusted for era and park it's only about a dozen or so more.
I'm not about to say that Bishop was better than Rickey, but I will say that he was absolutely one of the best leadoff hitters in history, low average or not. Barry's BA during his leadoff days (86-89) was .255.

[Chisox]

I now more than ever truly believe that after this past season, that Ichiro deserves a spot on that list. And depending on how long he stays in this league, he could challenge for the number 2 spot, and be the closest challenger to the #1 spot (yes I know that is kind of repetitive, but so what)

200+ hits/season
30-40 SB/season
.300+ BA/season

2 batting titles
SB title
.372 BA/RISP this past season - led the league (unfortunately his team could not seem to get a lot of men on base....Don't get me started)

the list could go on, but I think you get the picture.

No I do not think he is challenging Rickey's spot, it will take several more years before that should even be mentioned - but I am not taking out that possibility if what we have seen from him (Ichiro) continues many more years
There is NO WAY Ichiro is either in the top 5 actual or ideal lead-off hitters ever. He hasn't had the career length to match Boggs, Raines, Rose, Hamilton, Bobby Bonds, or Brock. Maybe somewhere along the lines of Earle Combs or Dom DiMaggio. He doesn't walk (read take pitchers deep into counts and use all their pitches for the rest of the team to see) enough to be an ideal leadoff man. I do like that he's figured out how to not get caught stealing as often, however.

In answer to the questions, I think the most ideal leadoff man in history is Barry Bonds; I have him hitting leadoff on my all-time line-up. The greatest lead-off man ever is Rickey Henderson.