The HOF Flashpoint [Archive]

Calif_Eagle

03-17-2007, 04:59 PM

The title of the thread refers to the man or men that is/are the biggest flashpoint in the history of the HOF debates. "Does he or doesnt he belong?" Obviously its not someone like Cy Young or Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth. These men are IN with unimpeachable qualifications. Equally its not someone like Minnie Mendoza, someone who is OUT & with no hope of getting in. I am looking for one or two men, perhaps 1 in and 1 out about whom there is the most argument. Men with strong makeable cases EITHER way as to whether they should be in, or out of the HOF. Who is IN that is the strongest symbolic representation of this debate? and who is OUT with the same position? Who are the lightning rods of HOF debate? I am curious what you gentlemen think, (ladies welcome also, to be sure.) (not looking for clear cut mistakes here ala' Bulkeley or Frisch type selections. I am looking for 50-50 type players right on the real argument borderline.)

ironman

03-17-2007, 05:45 PM

I hope you're not talking about Minnie Mendoza, the career minor leaguer who got called up with the Twins for a cup-of-coffee stay in 1970 at age 36. :noidea :D Jk I know youre thinking Minnie MINOSO

Erik Bedard

03-17-2007, 06:23 PM

Rollie Fingers strikes me as one of those total borderline guys, just off the top of my head.

The Kid

03-17-2007, 06:24 PM

I'd have to say a guy like Catfish Hunter on the in side and someone like Luis Tiant on the out side.

AstrosFan

03-17-2007, 07:00 PM

I hope you're not talking about Minnie Mendoza, the career minor leaguer who got called up with the Twins for a cup-of-coffee stay in 1970 at age 36. :noidea :D Jk I know youre thinking Minnie MINOSO

Actually, if he's talking about a player with no hope of getting in, Minnie Mendoza would make more sense. Minoso could get in if things bounce right. He's got the credentials.

Calif_Eagle

03-17-2007, 08:52 PM

I hope you're not talking about Minnie Mendoza, the career minor leaguer who got called up with the Twins for a cup-of-coffee stay in 1970 at age 36. :noidea :D Jk I know youre thinking Minnie MINOSO
I did in fact mean Minnie Mendoza of Mendoza Line fame. I was trying to think of a player that was a clear no-argument non HOF-er. I was going to use Rabbit Maranville, but then I suddenly realized he IS in! (Said tongue in cheek) (btw, I personally do feel the Rabbit should be out.) . Minoso is a good possible candidate for "flashpoint" status. I have seen argument here on the fever for and against Minoso. I am wondering who the truly most polarizing men both in and out are. The exact dividing lines between HOF and non-HOF status.

leecemark

03-17-2007, 10:07 PM

Mario Mendoza is the mendoza line guy.

AG2004

03-17-2007, 11:17 PM

In the BBFHOF voting, Addie Joss, Chuck Klein, and Will Clark have all been hanging around the 50% mark for the past few months. Joss and Klein are in Cooperstown, while Clark isn't.

Thus, I would consider these three players as flashpoints for debate. The fact that they have been consistently able to draw 50% of the BBFHOF vote indicates that there are strong arguments for their inclusion in Cooperstown. The fact that they have been stuck at 50%, and unable to move towards 75% in the BBFHOF poll, indicates that there are strong arguments against their inclusion in the Hall of Fame. They would have to be three of the most polarizing figures here.

(PS - Mario Mendoza was on a spoof ballot for the BBFHOF submitted on April 1, 2005. As there were actually 27 players listed, the ballot would not have been counted in any case.)

Honus Wagner Rules

03-18-2007, 12:19 AM

Bert Blyleven

Calif_Eagle

03-18-2007, 12:21 AM

Mario Mendoza is the mendoza line guy. My mistake. I stand corrected. Mario will do also as an example of someone who wont be going in. I do note though, that he hit .215 for his career, where my man Minnie hit .188. Either one will do fine for my purposes here. :)

The Dude

03-18-2007, 02:27 AM

Any of our defensive guys. Ray Schalk, Luis Aparicio, and Bill Mazeroski.

RuthMayBond

03-18-2007, 06:01 AM

Who is IN that is the strongest symbolic representation of this debate? and who is OUT with the same position? Who are the lightning rods of HOF debate?Perhaps you've heard a thing or two about Jim Rice and Gil Hodges? ;)

yanks0714

03-18-2007, 06:53 AM

I think the very first thing that would have to be done to determine the 'flashpoint' of those that are in is eliminate the Vets Comm selections. There were some good selections by the Vets Committee but the Frankie Frisch era brought in several players whom just about everyone agrees should not be in.
I think you can only look at those selected by the writers via the ballot process.

In that case I would say Jim 'Catfish' Hunter is a major flashpoint.

For those not in the HOF, Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo, and Minnie Minoso are the clear flashpoints.

Erik Bedard

03-18-2007, 08:46 AM

Except almost anyone who's not an extreme small-hall person believes Santo should be in, and even some exceptionally small-hall people voted for Santo in our Mock HoF election. Blyleven is somewhat like that too. I'd say that, to pick two from each category, Hunter and Fingers would fit the bill on the "in" side, and Minoso and Clark on the "out" side.

Calif_Eagle

03-18-2007, 01:24 PM

The responses so far have been interesting. One response is against defense only selections. (I personally think there is a place for defense on the level of Ozzie Smith, Bill Mazeroski & Brooks Robinson) We also have criticism of the VC, which is wholly justified. I think the VC ought to be composed of baseball historians myself. And yes, I got that idea from "The Politics of Glory" by Bill James about the HOF. I always thought Frank Selee deserved to be in, and feel that if "TPOG" hadnt been written, he never would have made it. In "TPOG" James uses Don Drysdale and Phil Rizzuto as his "flashpoints". 2 good players about whom controversial debate took place before the gates finally swung open. I will say the I do like RuthMayBonds' 2 choices, Jim Rice and Gil Hodges, both for the HOF. As for Rollie Fingers... I have a hard time with relievers for reasons I bet some of you share. The role of the relief man has changed so much through the years. From mop-up man to "Fireman" to the 1 inning closer. I think "closer" is a very overrated position & would like to see better standards in place for the save. I like Catfish Hunter for the Hall too, both for his big seasons and for being the free agent that led the way to the end of the reserve clause. Just some random thoughts about whats been posted so far...

wickedcurve093

03-18-2007, 01:55 PM

what about willie mcgee and dave parker?

CTaka

03-18-2007, 03:16 PM

what about willie mcgee and dave parker?

I think there are very few who would strongly advocate for Willie McGee. I believe Alec put him up for a poll a short time back and it was pretty quickly dismissed.

I'd say that Dave Parker, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, and Dale Murphy would be closer to your definition of a "flashpoint" for those outside looking in than McGee.

CTaka

03-18-2007, 03:20 PM

what about willie mcgee and dave parker?

Here was the poll on McGee:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54249&highlight=willie+mcgee

Pretty decisive.

538280

03-18-2007, 08:12 PM

Players like Dave Parker, Joe Torre, Ken Boyer, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, and Stan Hack all seem to nearly split the house whenever we have a poll on them. I'd say they would be good examples of "flashponts". And I'm sure there are other examples as well.

Fuzzy Bear

03-19-2007, 07:38 PM

All-Borderline IN THE HALL Team:

1B Jim Bottomley
2B Red Schoendienst
3B George Kell
SS Pee Wee Reese
LF Kiki Cuyler
CF Heinie Manush
RF Ross Youngs (I rate him higher than most here do.)
C Ernie Lombardi
RHP Don Drysdale
LHP Lefty Gomez
RP Bruce Sutter

MANAGER: Leo Durocher

All-Borderline OUTSIDE THE HALL team

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Buddy Myer
3B Bob Elliott
SS Dave Concepcion
LF Albert Belle
CF Vada Pinson
RF Dwight Evans
C Bob Boone
RHP Luis Tiant
LHP Ron Guidry
RP Elroy Face

MANAGER: Ralph Houk

All HOF INJUSTICE Team (Guys who are no-doubt quality, but out)

1B: Mark McGwire/Dick Allen
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Cecil Travis
LF: Minnie Minoso
CF: Dale Murphy
RF: Charlie Keller
C: Ted Simmons/Joe Torre
RHP: Bert Blyleven]
LHP: Jim Kaat
RP: Rich Gossage

MANAGER: Dick Williams

RuthMayBond

03-20-2007, 10:14 AM

All-Borderline IN THE HALL Team:Nice post, I'll give mine

1B Tony Perez
2B Bobby Doerr
3B George Kell
SS Maranville
LF Lou Brock
CF Edd Roush
RF Harry Hooper
C Ernie Lombardi
RHP Bucky Walters, Bob Lemon :eek:
LHP Lefty Gomez
RP Rollie Fingers

MANAGER: Wilbert Robinson

All-Borderline OUTSIDE THE HALL team

1B Will Clark
2B Willie Randolph
3B Elliott/Cey?
SS Tony Fernandez :eek:
LF Jimmy Sheckard
CF Fred Lynn
RF Rusty Staub
C Gene Tenace
RHP Dutch Leonard
LHP Tommy John, Wilbur Cooper
RP Tom Henke

MANAGER: Don Zimmer

All HOF INJUSTICE Team (Guys who are no-doubt quality, but out)

1B: Mark McGwire?/Dick Allen
2B: Bobby Grich
3B: Darrell Evans
SS: Dahlen/Trammell
LF: Sherry Magee
CF: Andre Dawson
RF: Dwight Evans
C: Ted Simmons/Joe Torre
SP: Bert Blyleven
SP: Jim McCormick
RP: Rich Gossage, Lee Smith

MANAGER: Ralph Houk (I still gotta look up Dick Williams)

dgarza

03-20-2007, 10:52 AM

3B Frank Baker

How is Frank Baker borderline?

RuthMayBond

03-20-2007, 11:12 AM

How is Frank Baker borderline?Career length. I know it wasn't his fault but it still happened, but I can change that to Traynor (I think I know the next question ;)

Calif_Eagle

03-22-2007, 08:58 PM

Career length. I know it wasn't his fault but it still happened, but I can change that to Traynor (I think I know the next question ;)
Well, OK... I'll bite... why is Pie Traynor a border line HOF-er? I know there isnt universal agreement about his HOF worthiness, and I would be interested to hear your list of arguments as to why he doesn't or at least may not belong in the HOF.

RuthMayBond

03-22-2007, 09:06 PM

Well, OK... I'll bite... why is Pie Traynor a border line HOF-er? I know there isnt universal agreement about his HOF worthiness, and I would be interested to hear your list of arguments as to why he doesn't or at least may not belong in the HOF.My bad, I thought he was the last HOFer before it dropped down into questionable territory, but there's Jimmy Collins. After him, you go way down to Lindstrom, dangit, I mean Kell. Kell's probably a good choice

digglahhh

03-23-2007, 12:07 PM

Hodges is a lightning Rod, so is Brock for the stat crowd.

Personally, I think the Brock is a great candidate for the borderline.

He tests the viability of milestones, career records (which he held at the time of his election) and fame.

The guys who represent the borderline will change based upon how many people different people should be in the Hall.

I think we'll see a lot of "borderline" candidates among current players by the time they're eligible.

Delgado, Kent, Helton, Edmonds, Bernie, Mussina, Tejeda, Thome all strike me as guys who will have problems getting in, but will have plenty of supporters.

Fuzzy Bear

01-01-2009, 07:13 AM

jjpm74

01-01-2009, 10:50 AM

In the BBFHOF voting, Addie Joss, Chuck Klein, and Will Clark have all been hanging around the 50% mark for the past few months. Joss and Klein are in Cooperstown, while Clark isn't.

Thus, I would consider these three players as flashpoints for debate. The fact that they have been consistently able to draw 50% of the BBFHOF vote indicates that there are strong arguments for their inclusion in Cooperstown. The fact that they have been stuck at 50%, and unable to move towards 75% in the BBFHOF poll, indicates that there are strong arguments against their inclusion in the Hall of Fame. They would have to be three of the most polarizing figures here.

You're forgetting about the king of all the in/out debate from that project: Jake Beckley.