Bernie Williams

[Jake]

His lifetime batting average is .301

263 HR is low but
2097 hits and 36 years old.

.990 fielding percentage
4 consecutive Gold Gloves
5 time all star

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And those 4 WS rings.

Does Bernie get in? Assuming he gets to 2500+ hits and 350 homers.

[julusnc]

I feel Bernie Williams career falls short for the Hall of Fame.I also feel his career is at an end.

[Jake]

I feel Bernie Williams career falls short for the Hall of Fame.I also feel his career is at an end.

What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Baseball-reference.com lists these for him:

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

94th best and 85th best.

[RuthMayBond]

His lifetime batting average is .301

263 HR is low but
2097 hits and 36 years old.

.990 fielding percentage
4 consecutive Gold Gloves
5 time all star

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And those 4 WS rings.

Does Bernie get in? Assuming he gets to 2500+ hits and 350 homers.Hmm, possibly worse than Wynn or maybe Berger yet possibly better than Puckett, Duffy and Doby.

[Jake]

Hmm, possibly worse than Wynn or maybe Berger yet possibly better than Puckett, Duffy and Doby.

Puckett got in. Was Puckett's induction largely a sympathy vote? I think you have to let Bernie in if they let Puckett in.

[Sashag]

[QUOTE=Jake]What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

[nightal]

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Edd Roush 1069
20 Marquis Grissom 1059


CF

HITS
1 Tris Speaker 3511
2 Ty Cobb 3284
3 Willie Mays 3283
4 Doc Cramer 2705
5 Richie Ashburn 2574
6 Willie Davis 2445
7 Edd Roush 2309
8 Lloyd Waner 2274
9 Brett Butler 2189
10 Ken Griffey Jr. 2080
11 Mickey Mantle 2021
12 Joe DiMaggio 2008
T13 Vada Pinson 2004
T13 Amos Otis 2004
15 Kirby Puckett 1996
16 Steve Finley 1993
17 Marquis Grissom 1991
18 Bernie Williams 1950
19 Kenny Lofton 1943
20 Earl Averill 1924



OPS
1 Mickey Mantle 1.018
2 Joe DiMaggio .982
3 Ty Cobb .964
4 Willie Mays .941
5 Ken Griffey Jr. .940
6 Duke Snider .937
7 Earl Averill .935
8 Tris Speaker .929
9 Larry Doby .885
10 Bernie Williams .882
11 Fred Lynn .859
12 Earle Combs .857
13 Dale Murphy .849
14 Jimmy Wynn .844
15 Baby Doll Jacobson .842
16 Kirby Puckett .827
17 Cy Williams .824
18 Edd Roush .819
19 Cesar Cedeno .814
20 Chet Lemon .813



CF

RCAA
1 Ty Cobb 1107
2 Tris Speaker 1054
3 Mickey Mantle 1009
4 Willie Mays 1008
5 Joe DiMaggio 672
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 535
7 Duke Snider 406
8 Earl Averill 394
9 Larry Doby 369
10 Bernie Williams 357
11 Hack Wilson 332
12 Edd Roush 302
13 Jim Edmonds 290
T14 Fred Lynn 285
T14 Jimmy Wynn 285
16 Richie Ashburn 282
17 Earle Combs 254
18 Cesar Cedeno 244
19 Wally Berger 229
20 Lenny Dykstra 223

RCAP
1 Mickey Mantle 949
2 Ty Cobb 871
3 Willie Mays 856
4 Tris Speaker 779
5 Joe DiMaggio 604
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 532
7 Bernie Williams 366
8 Earl Averill 328
9 Hack Wilson 322
10 Larry Doby 319
11 Duke Snider 312
12 Jim Edmonds 299
13 Fred Lynn 258
14 Jimmy Wynn 224
15 Cesar Cedeno 214
16 Edd Roush 212
17 Kenny Lofton 209
18 Lenny Dykstra 205
19 Wally Berger 200
20 Dale Murphy 190

TOTAL AVERAGE
1 Mickey Mantle 1.161
2 Ty Cobb 1.087
3 Joe DiMaggio 1.021
4 Tris Speaker 1.014
5 Willie Mays .982
6 Ken Griffey Jr. .981
7 Earl Averill .967
8 Duke Snider .953
9 Larry Doby .906
10 Bernie Williams .881
11 Jimmy Wynn .878
12 Earle Combs .849
13 Dale Murphy .846
14 Fred Lynn .840
15 Kenny Lofton .830
16 Lenny Dykstra .828
17 Roy Thomas .822
18 Cesar Cedeno .817
19 Max Carey .806
20 Baby Doll Jacobson .801

CF

OWP
1 Mickey Mantle .821
2 Ty Cobb .786
3 Joe DiMaggio .749
4 Tris Speaker .749
5 Willie Mays .731
6 Larry Doby .687
7 Jimmy Wynn .684
8 Ken Griffey Jr. .683
9 Duke Snider .671
10 Earl Averill .655
11 Bernie Williams .646
12 Roy Thomas .642
13 Earle Combs .641
14 Lenny Dykstra .639
15 Fred Lynn .638
16 Cesar Cedeno .635
17 Dale Murphy .630
18 Edd Roush .629
19 Ginger Beaumont .613
20 Rick Monday .600


CF

ISOLATED POWER
1 Mickey Mantle .278
2 Ken Griffey Jr. .268
3 Willie Mays .256
4 Duke Snider .254
5 Joe DiMaggio .254
6 Earl Averill .217
7 Dale Murphy .213
8 Larry Doby .211
9 Fred Lynn .207
10 Jimmy Wynn .206
11 Bernie Williams .188
12 Steve Finley .180
13 Dave Henderson .178
14 Chet Lemon .177
15 Rick Monday .176
16 Cy Williams .173
17 Vada Pinson .168
18 Cesar Cedeno .168
19 Lloyd Moseby .160
20 Tris Speaker .156
CF

EXTRA BASE HITS
1 Willie Mays 1323
2 Tris Speaker 1131
3 Ty Cobb 901
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 899
5 Mickey Mantle 819
6 Joe DiMaggio 793
7 Duke Snider 732
8 Earl Averill 722
9 Steve Finley 702
10 Willie Davis 681
11 Bernie Williams 666
12 Vada Pinson 654
13 Fred Lynn 635
14 Amos Otis 629
15 Marquis Grissom 594
16 Edd Roush 575
17 Kirby Puckett 561
18 Cesar Cedeno 544
19 Doc Cramer 542
20 Larry Doby 541

CF

AVERAGE
1 Ty Cobb .372
2 Tris Speaker .345
3 Baby Doll Jacobson .325
4 Joe DiMaggio .325
5 Earle Combs .325
6 Edd Roush .324
7 Earl Averill .321
8 Lloyd Waner .321
9 Kirby Puckett .318
10 Mickey Mantle .310
11 Richie Ashburn .308
12 Ginger Beaumont .307
13 Bernie Williams .305
14 Willie Mays .302
15 Duke Snider .301
16 Sammy West .300
17 Kenny Lofton .298
18 Willie McGee .298
19 Dom DiMaggio .298
20 Doc Cramer .296


CF

HOMERUNS
1 Willie Mays 660
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 481
3 Mickey Mantle 464
4 Duke Snider 345
5 Joe DiMaggio 332
6 Fred Lynn 257
7 Jim Edmonds 255
8 Larry Doby 253
9 Steve Finley 244
10 Bernie Williams 241
11 Dale Murphy 240
12 Earl Averill 227
13 Jimmy Wynn 218
14 Rick Monday 212
T15 Hack Wilson 200
T15 Marquis Grissom 200
17 Andruw Jones 198
18 Vada Pinson 196
19 Gorman Thomas 194
20 Amos Otis 193




CF

RBI
1 Willie Mays 1903
2 Tris Speaker 1536
3 Ty Cobb 1466
4 Joe DiMaggio 1412
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1384
6 Mickey Mantle 1289
7 Earl Averill 1100
8 Duke Snider 1097
9 Bernie Williams 1062
10 Willie Davis 1001
11 Amos Otis 997
12 Larry Doby 955
13 Edd Roush 946
14 Fred Lynn 934
15 Steve Finley 915
16 Kirby Puckett 874
17 Doc Cramer 842
18 Vada Pinson 841
19 Marquis Grissom 833
20 Hack Wilson 826

CF

DOUBLES
1 Tris Speaker 792
2 Ty Cobb 568
3 Willie Mays 523
4 Doc Cramer 396
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 382
6 Willie Davis 374
7 Earl Averill 373
8 Bernie Williams 372
9 Amos Otis 370
10 Vada Pinson 358
11 Steve Finley 356
12 Joe DiMaggio 345
T13 Kirby Puckett 343
T13 Fred Lynn 343
15 Marquis Grissom 342
16 Sammy West 341
17 Garry Maddox 337
18 Cesar Cedeno 332
19 Edd Roush 331
20 Kenny Lofton 318

CF

TRIPLES
1 Ty Cobb 240
2 Tris Speaker 222
3 Edd Roush 177
4 Willie Mays 140
5 Willie Davis 131
6 Earle Combs 128
7 Earl Averill 122
8 Joe DiMaggio 116
9 Brett Butler 115
10 Lance Johnson 114
11 Lloyd Waner 112
T12 Doc Cramer 109
T12 Richie Ashburn 109
14 Max Carey 108
T15 Steve Finley 102
T15 Bill Bruton 102
T17 Vada Pinson 100
T17 Hi Myers 100
T17 Sammy West 100
20 Clyde Milan 89



CF

RUNS CREATED
1 Willie Mays 2355
2 Tris Speaker 2352
3 Ty Cobb 2197
4 Mickey Mantle 1771
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1523
6 Joe DiMaggio 1491
7 Richie Ashburn 1386
8 Earl Averill 1329
9 Duke Snider 1249
10 Bernie Williams 1235
11 Edd Roush 1200
12 Doc Cramer 1189
13 Brett Butler 1184
14 Kenny Lofton 1135
15 Steve Finley 1134
16 Willie Davis 1130
17 Amos Otis 1104
18 Vada Pinson 1058
19 Larry Doby 1049
20 Max Carey 1046
CF

SECONDARY AVERAGE
1 Mickey Mantle .509
2 Ken Griffey Jr. .416
3 Willie Mays .412
4 Jimmy Wynn .408
5 Duke Snider .393
6 Joe DiMaggio .381
7 Larry Doby .378
8 Dale Murphy .360
9 Earl Averill .339
10 Bernie Williams .338
11 Fred Lynn .332
12 Ty Cobb .326
13 Rick Monday .325
14 Tris Speaker .322
15 Lenny Dykstra .321
16 Cesar Cedeno .316
17 Kenny Lofton .309
18 Lloyd Moseby .305
19 Steve Finley .295
20 Amos Otis .289



CF

RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Mickey Mantle 10.26
2 Ty Cobb 9.57
3 Joe DiMaggio 9.24
4 Tris Speaker 8.61
5 Earl Averill 8.29
6 Willie Mays 7.89
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 7.79
8 Duke Snider 7.71
9 Larry Doby 7.28
10 Earle Combs 7.06
11 Bernie Williams 7.00
12 Fred Lynn 6.43
13 Baby Doll Jacobson 6.38
14 Jimmy Wynn 6.37
15 Dale Murphy 6.30
16 Roy Thomas 6.29
17 Lenny Dykstra 6.28
18 Kenny Lofton 6.25
19 Dom DiMaggio 6.16
20 Richie Ashburn 6.14


Top Center Fielders using this method: (20Pts for 1st down to 1pt. for 20th)
295-Willie Mays
273-Ty Cobb
262-Mickey Mantle
262-Tris Speaker
260-Joe DiMaggio
235-Ken Griffey Jr.(through 2003)
209-Earl Averill
175-Duke Snider
163-Bernie Williams(through 2003)
126-Larry Doby
106-Fred Lynn
94-Edd Roush
83-Willie Davis
70-Jimmy Wynn
64-Dale Murphy
69-Richie Ashburn
72-Earle Combs
46-Amos Otis
45-Vada Pinson
42-Lloyd Waner
40-Kirby Puckett
33-Cesar Cedeno
31-Jim Edmonds(through 2003)

[csh19792001]

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Edd Roush 1069
20 Marquis Grissom 1059




Where did you get these stats!?

Great work, Nightal.

[Brad Harris]

Bernie Williams already has 292 career win shares. This is more than Earl Averill, Earle Combs, Larry Doby, Kirby Puckett or Lloyd Waner and very close to Hugh Duffy (294) and Edd Roush (314).

Win shares confirms my subjective evalation: that Williams is as good or better than the bottom third of center fielders already in the Hall of Fame. He's on his last legs now and I don't suspect him to be much of a contributor over the last few years of his career so his career win shares will probably settle just over the 300 mark.

He'll be a good candidate, statistically, but I'm willing to bet money that he's one-and-done by the BBWAA when his name is called. Of course...I would have bet money the same was true of Willie McGee, but 26 morons, err...BBWAA voters..proved me wrong. :crazy

[DoubleX]

Bernie might have a few more decent seasons left in him and could pass 300 homeruns and 2500 hits, that would make his candidacy much more attractive. After Griffey Jr., Bernie was the best CF of the 90's, but even while playing for high profile Yankees teams, I never felt that Bernie got the respect he deserved. Opposing pitchers and managers spoke with reverence about having to be careful when pitching to Bernie, but I don't think the media or fans ever embraced him as being as good as he was.

[Aegis]

Nightal, you do great work with those stat lists, but you left Puckett off of a number of them.

As far as postseason stats go, yeah; the increase in postseason series overmagnifies Bernie's stats. In 10 trips to the postseason he's played in 23 individual series. That wasn't even possible back in the day.

I think Puckett's better than Williams, and the former's induction should be no demand for the latter's. Need I remind people that Williams' Black and Gray Ink scores are 4/61? That's something conspicuously left out of the original post, especially since he saw fit to mention the other two Jamesian categories. The only two things Williams has ever led the league in are BA once and IBB once. For reference, Puckett's scores are 22/122. Bernie certainly hits for more HR, but Puckett hit for more 2B and 3B, and has a better 162 game average for TB. Puckett has a FP of .989, .001 below Bernie. He has six GG, two more than Bernie. He went to 10 AS games, five more than Bernie. In two fewer years.

Please, stop favorably comparing the two.

[JACKIE42]

[QUOTE=Jake]What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

You beat me to it, thats my feeling also.

[DoubleX]

[QUOTE=Jake]What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

They're valid, just not valid when comparing Bernie Williams to Mickey Mantle or anyone who played prior to the modern playoff format. But I think it's useful when comparing Bernie to his peers and later players when assessing Hall of Fame worthiness.

[Aegis]

They're valid, just not valid when comparing Bernie Williams to Mickey Mantle or anyone who played prior to the modern playoff format. But I think it's useful when comparing Bernie to his peers and later players when assessing Hall of Fame worthiness.

I disagree. Higher postseason stats for one man over another do not inherently indicate that the former is a better player. There are other factors to be considered, such as the teams the juxtaposed players compete on. Is Enos Slaughter better than Stan Musial because he has the same or better postseason stats in R, H, 3B, HR, RBI, BB, BA, OBP, and SLG in 7 fewer AB? The only category Musial leads in is 2B. Also, if you start talking about the postseason, where do you draw the line between a great player on bad teams and an okay player on great teams?

[nightal]

Nightal, you do great work with those stat lists, but you left Puckett off of a number of them.

As far as postseason stats go, yeah; the increase in postseason series overmagnifies Bernie's stats. In 10 trips to the postseason he's played in 23 individual series. That wasn't even possible back in the day.

I think Puckett's better than Williams, and the former's induction should be no demand for the latter's. Need I remind people that Williams' Black and Gray Ink scores are 4/61? That's something conspicuously left out of the original post, especially since he saw fit to mention the other two Jamesian categories. The only two things Williams has ever led the league in are BA once and IBB once. For reference, Puckett's scores are 22/122. Bernie certainly hits for more HR, but Puckett hit for more 2B and 3B, and has a better 162 game average for TB. Puckett has a FP of .989, .001 below Bernie. He has six GG, two more than Bernie. He went to 10 AS games, five more than Bernie. In two fewer years.

Please, stop favorably comparing the two.

I didn't leave Puckett off of a damn thing. He was top 20 on the ones you see him on. Do your research or look/learn from my homework.
Williams compares very favorably to the overrated Puckett.
And as for what you "think", hey that's great! But the numbers do not lie.

yours
al

[Aegis]

I didn't leave Puckett off of a damn thing. He was top 20 on the ones you see him on. Do your research or look/learn from my homework.
Williams compares very favorably to the overrated Puckett.
And as for what you "think", hey that's great! But the numbers do not lie.

yours
al

I love you too.

Adjusted lists: (New Puckett listing bolded, old # to the side)

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Kirby Puckett 1071 (n/a)
20 Edd Roush 1069

CF

HITS
1 Tris Speaker 3511
2 Ty Cobb 3284
3 Willie Mays 3283
4 Doc Cramer 2705
5 Richie Ashburn 2574
6 Willie Davis 2445
7 Edd Roush 2309
8 Kirby Puckett 2304 (15)
9 Lloyd Waner 2274
10 Brett Butler 2189
11 Ken Griffey Jr. 2080
12 Mickey Mantle 2021
13 Joe DiMaggio 2008
T14 Vada Pinson 2004
T14 Amos Otis 2004
16 Steve Finley 1993
17 Marquis Grissom 1991
18 Bernie Williams 1950
19 Kenny Lofton 1943
20 Earl Averill 1924

OPS
1 Mickey Mantle 1.018
2 Joe DiMaggio .982
3 Ty Cobb .964
4 Willie Mays .941
5 Ken Griffey Jr. .940
6 Duke Snider .937
7 Earl Averill .935
8 Tris Speaker .929
9 Larry Doby .885
10 Bernie Williams .882
11 Fred Lynn .859
12 Earle Combs .857
13 Dale Murphy .849
14 Jimmy Wynn .844
15 Baby Doll Jacobson .842
16 Kirby Puckett .837 (16)
17 Cy Williams .824
18 Edd Roush .819
19 Cesar Cedeno .814
20 Chet Lemon .813

EXTRA BASE HITS

1 Willie Mays 1323
2 Tris Speaker 1131
3 Ty Cobb 901
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 899
5 Mickey Mantle 819
6 Joe DiMaggio 793
7 Duke Snider 732
8 Earl Averill 722
9 Steve Finley 702
10 Willie Davis 681
11 Kirby Puckett 678 (17)
12 Bernie Williams 666
13 Vada Pinson 654
14 Fred Lynn 635
15 Amos Otis 629
16 Marquis Grissom 594
17 Edd Roush 575
18 Cesar Cedeno 544
19 Doc Cramer 542
20 Larry Doby 541

HOMERUNS

1 Willie Mays 660
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 481
3 Mickey Mantle 464
4 Duke Snider 345
5 Joe DiMaggio 332
6 Fred Lynn 257
7 Jim Edmonds 255
8 Larry Doby 253
9 Steve Finley 244
10 Bernie Williams 241
11 Dale Murphy 240
12 Earl Averill 227
13 Jimmy Wynn 218
14 Rick Monday 212
15 Kirby Puckett 207 (n/a)
T16 Hack Wilson 200
T16 Marquis Grissom 200
18 Andruw Jones 198
19 Vada Pinson 196
20 Gorman Thomas 194

RBI

1 Willie Mays 1903
2 Tris Speaker 1536
3 Ty Cobb 1466
4 Joe DiMaggio 1412
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1384
6 Mickey Mantle 1289
7 Earl Averill 1100
8 Duke Snider 1097
9 Kirby Puckett 1085 (16)
10 Bernie Williams 1062
11 Willie Davis 1001
12 Amos Otis 997
13 Larry Doby 955
14 Edd Roush 946
15 Fred Lynn 934
16 Steve Finley 915
17 Kirby Puckett 874
18 Doc Cramer 842
19 Vada Pinson 841
20 Marquis Grissom 833

DOUBLES

1 Tris Speaker 792
2 Ty Cobb 568
3 Willie Mays 523
4 Kirby Puckett 414 (13)
5 Doc Cramer 396
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 382
7 Willie Davis 374
8 Earl Averill 373
9 Bernie Williams 372
10 Amos Otis 370
11 Vada Pinson 358
12 Steve Finley 356
13 Joe DiMaggio 345
14 Fred Lynn 343
15 Marquis Grissom 342
16 Sammy West 341
17 Garry Maddox 337
18 Cesar Cedeno 332
19 Edd Roush 331
20 Kenny Lofton 318

RUNS CREATED

1 Willie Mays 2355
2 Tris Speaker 2352
3 Ty Cobb 2197
4 Mickey Mantle 1771
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1523
6 Joe DiMaggio 1491
7 Richie Ashburn 1386
8 Earl Averill 1329
9 Duke Snider 1249
10 Kirby Puckett 1242 (n/a)
11 Bernie Williams 1235
12 Edd Roush 1200
13 Doc Cramer 1189
14 Brett Butler 1184
15 Kenny Lofton 1135
16 Steve Finley 1134
17 Willie Davis 1130
18 Amos Otis 1104
19 Vada Pinson 1058
20 Larry Doby 1049

I don't even know what to do with some of those other stats. I may recalculate Puckett's and Williams' standings in a minute, but I doubt I'm going to bother to go through everyone.

[Aegis]

New totals: (change +/-)

Williams - 159 (-4)
Puckett - 88 (+48)

I might take a look at lists of those other stats sometime.

[nightal]

New totals: (change +/-)

Williams - 159 (-4)
Puckett - 88 (+48)

I might take a look at lists of those other stats sometime.

Ok, I'll bite what "adjustments" did you use?
It sounds like "Leveling The Field", Blackdog Publishing; 2002, but isn't quite as accurate.
Some people deal with "adjustments", or "leveling", I'm just an old fashioned-"what really happened" Lee Sinins stats kind of guy.

but, hey that's me

al

[Aegis]

Ok, I'll bite what "adjustments" did you use?

...I just looked up his stats. Plugged 'em in. Williams only loses a few points because Puckett jumps ahead of him in a few places. At first glance Williams' numbers are a-OK through 2003 on this list, but almost nothing I'm seeing concerning Puckett is matching up.

[cubbieinexile]

I have a feeling Nightal was using Lee Sinnins Sabremetric Encyclopedia and had the filters set too high to include Kirby in the lists.

[nightal]

I have a feeling Nightal was using Lee Sinnins Sabremetric Encyclopedia and had the filters set too high to include Kirby in the lists.


Yes, I was using the encyclopedia, but used 5000 at bats as the only filter. ABTW, what filters could have kept Kirby out? If that was the case, he would not have appeared on any list. You conspiracy theorist. OBTW, I used games played only in center field!, not DH or left or right field,second base, shortstop or third base-- CENTER FIELD only. Thought that is what we were discussing. That's why you see the CF before each category.


al

[nightal]

...I just looked up his stats. Plugged 'em in. Williams only loses a few points because Puckett jumps ahead of him in a few places. At first glance Williams' numbers are a-OK through 2003 on this list, but almost nothing I'm seeing concerning Puckett is matching up.


Because you counted all positions, not just center field.
RF-276 games
DH-91
LF-10
2B-4
3B-4
SS-3

[Aegis]

80%~ of his games in CF. I can maybe see cutting out DH stats, but the rest? Why?

[nightal]

Top Center Fielders using this method:
295-Willie Mays
273-Ty Cobb
262-Mickey Mantle
262-Tris Speaker
260-Joe DiMaggio
235-Ken Griffey Jr.(through 2003)
209-Earl Averill
175-Duke Snider
163-Bernie Williams(through 2003)
126-Larry Doby
106-Fred Lynn
94-Edd Roush
83-Willie Davis
70-Jimmy Wynn
64-Dale Murphy
69-Richie Ashburn
72-Earle Combs
46-Amos Otis
45-Vada Pinson
42-Lloyd Waner
40-Kirby Puckett------this is not a first ballot guy
33-Cesar Cedeno
31-Jim Edmonds(through 2003)



I don't think Puckett is one of the 20 greatest Center Fielders. These numbers are through 2003, minimum 5000 At Bats while playing Center Field.


Here's part of my original post concerning center fielders. As you can see I said Center Fielders. I took only Kirb's (and everyone else's) numbers while they were playing center.

[ElHalo]

80%~ of his games in CF. I can maybe see cutting out DH stats, but the rest? Why?

Aegis,

I think you missed the 276 games Puckett played in RF.

By comparison, before 2004, Bernie had played in his career a grand total of 33 games at positions other than CF (25 DH, 4 LF, 4 RF). He had another 50 games at DH this year.

[cubbieinexile]

I wasn't being a conspiracy theorist I was offering a suggestion as to why the stats were different. If you were intentionally trying to leave Kirby I would not know about it because I have not followed any of your discussions (if there are any) about Kirby.

Your filters are a little too narrow in that you are only looking at seasons in which a played played the majority of games at Center. But it does not filter individual games. So Puckett loses about 200 games from his total while a player like Cramer gains 100 games to his total.

As for your paranoia and attitude, if you don't want discussion and debate about your work then don't post it publicly. If you want to lessen useless discussion about your work then at least go into a little more detail about what you are doing instead of just writing CF on the top of a list. For instance a title of Stats while playing the majority of time as a CF. Would have avoided all the vinegar that ensued.

[nightal]

80%~ of his games in CF. I can maybe see cutting out DH stats, but the rest? Why?


Because I was dealing with Center Field play, only.


yours
al

[nightal]

I wasn't being a conspiracy theorist I was offering a suggestion as to why the stats were different. If you were intentionally trying to leave Kirby I would not know about it because I have not followed any of your discussions (if there are any) about Kirby.

Your filters are a little too narrow in that you are only looking at seasons in which a played played the majority of games at Center. But it does not filter individual games. So Puckett loses about 200 games from his total while a player like Cramer gains 100 games to his total.

As for your paranoia and attitude, if you don't want discussion and debate about your work then don't post it publicly. If you want to lessen useless discussion about your work then at least go into a little more detail about what you are doing instead of just writing CF on the top of a list. For instance a title of Stats while playing the majority of time as a CF. Would have avoided all the vinegar that ensued.

Well, scuse me! I was trying to be lighthearted about it. I had no problem with what you were saying. I'll be sure to include laughter next time.
And, I was very clear that I was using center field play only. I clearly stated 5000 career at bats in center field only. I guess I could have broken it down further, but c'mon.
Note: I believe Lee has broken down individual stats by game, If I'm not mistaken.
I'll e-mail him and ask



al

[Aegis]

Aegis,

I think you missed the 276 games Puckett played in RF.

By comparison, before 2004, Bernie had played in his career a grand total of 33 games at positions other than CF (25 DH, 4 LF, 4 RF). He had another 50 games at DH this year.

1432 G at CF / 1783 G overall = .803.

[ElHalo]

1432 G at CF / 1783 G overall = .803.

Ok, and Bernie Williams

1640 G at CF / 1723 G overall = 95%. So 80% of Puckett's value counts here, while 95% of Bernie's does. This isn't a comparison of overall player value, but rather value as a CF.

[nightal]

Ok, and Bernie Williams

1640 G at CF / 1723 G overall = 95%. So 80% of Puckett's value counts here, while 95% of Bernie's does. This isn't a comparison of overall player value, but rather value as a CF.


Welcome, Friend.........

[cubbieinexile]

Well, scuse me! I was trying to be lighthearted about it. I'll be sure to include laughter next time.
And, I was very clear that I was using center field play only. I clearly stated 5000 career at bats in center field only. I guess I could have broken it down further, but c'mon.

"paranoid" al


I apologize for not picking up on your lighthearted gibe. I guess that after reading your response to Aegis I thought you were going along the same lines as that response. Perhaps that was meant to be lighthearted too but I failed to pick up on it. Sorry.

AS for the CF and 5000 at bats when I made the response all I had in front of me was your list. Which as far as I can tell did not have the 5000 at bat for CF only detail. So far I only saw that in your response to Aegis question. It is possible I missed it elsewhere

[nightal]

I apologize for not picking up on your lighthearted gibe. I guess that after reading your response to Aegis I thought you were going along the same lines as that response. Perhaps that was meant to be lighthearted too but I failed to pick up on it. Sorry.

AS for the CF and 5000 at bats when I made the response all I had in front of me was your list. Which as far as I can tell did not have the 5000 at bat for CF only detail. So far I only saw that in your response to Aegis question. It is possible I missed it elsewhere


No problem, you are a good poster. The filters were only on my first Puckett post, (under "Kirby Puckett"), so I understand the confusion

yours
al

[Aegis]

I personally went through my responses to combat the attitude of "if Puckett's in then Williams should be to" since I wholeheartedly disagree. At pure CF value, fine, I'll roll with nightal's charts. There's not much to argue with. But I don't think the overall value comparison needed to support the claim I've previously stated as disagreeing with is here. You cut 20% of Puckett's value and give Williams 2 more years, then yes, as the charts clearly show, Williams wins by a landslide. But factor everything in overall and I think it gets murkier, beyond the validity of a simple "player A is in so player B should be too" statement. And I'll shut up now.

[nightal]

I personally went through my responses to combat the attitude of "if Puckett's in then Williams should be to" since I wholeheartedly disagree. At pure CF value, fine, I'll roll with nightal's charts. There's not much to argue with. But I don't think the overall value comparison needed to support the claim I've previously stated as disagreeing with is here. You cut 20% of Puckett's value and give Williams 2 more years, then yes, as the charts clearly show, Williams wins by a landslide. But factor everything in overall and I think it gets murkier, beyond the validity of a simple "player A is in so player B should be too" statement. And I'll shut up now.


I agree with you here. My original intent was to show that Kirby Puckett was not a first ballot Hall of Famer. The battle concerning him is over at the "Kirby Puckett" thread.

[ElHalo]

Bernie definitely strikes me as one of those guys who's better than a lot of players in the Hall, but not really HoF worthy as a whole. Maybe he'll get in one day on the VC; his Yankee status certainly gives him a boost.

[nightal]

Bernie definitely strikes me as one of those guys who's better than a lot of players in the Hall, but not really HoF worthy as a whole. Maybe he'll get in one day on the VC; his Yankee status certainly gives him a boost.

Bernie's numbers will look so much better in the future when they are "cold", without Yankee anti-bias etc.
He does match up so well with many of the Hall of Fame outfielders. Someday soon, I'll line them up for everyone. (and include all positions and prime positions).

[dgarza]

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)


This seems like a larger difference in over/unders than normal.
What make his HOF Monitor so "high"?

[Freakshow]

This seems like a larger difference in over/unders than normal.
What make his HOF Monitor so "high"?
I'm guessing that postseason play gives him a lot of Monitor points.

Beware of comparing players with the HOM Monitor or trying to use it to justify elections. It is not trying to answer the question Who deserves to be elected. Rather, it is showing who rates best in relation to a study of elements the Hall has emphasized in its selections. There are no adjustments for parks or offensive levels. Excelling at the Hall's subjective criteria gets you a good Monitor score.

[Freakshow]

Bernie's numbers will look so much better in the future when they are "cold", without Yankee anti-bias etc.
He does match up so well with many of the Hall of Fame outfielders. Someday soon, I'll line them up for everyone. (and include all positions and prime positions).
If you could also include 19th century center fielders it would be much appreciated. Too often we forget Hines, Gore, Hamilton, Duffy, Van Haltren, Ryan, Hoy, Brown, Griffin and Browning.

[dgarza]

I'm guessing that postseason play gives him a lot of Monitor points.


I'm guessing that as well, I guess.

Right about the Monitor...Standards is the more objective measure.

[tybear]

I agree that Kirby was a sympathy vote.

I agree that Bernie's stats compare favorably to many other HoFers.

I don't think Bernie will get in, mostly because of playing for the Yankees. His stats will be seen as inflated due to all of the protection in the lineup. He has never had to be a "leader" on the club. He was better than average at many things. He is one of the better all-around players of his time. His major problem will be that he didn't do anything at a great level. Bernie has a lot of good stats, but runs the risk of being overlooked because of it.

[iPod]

I'm guessing that as well, I guess.

Right about the Monitor...Standards is the more objective measure.

I don't think HoF Standards adjusts for era either. Truth be told I don't really like HoF Monitor or HoF Standards... I don't have a system of ranking or anything, but the things I look at most are all-star selections, MVP voting, career OPS+/ERA+, peak OPS+/ERA+, and ink.

[MrRuss]

On most of these lists (except doubles and BA), Bernie is right below the HOFers and above guys that get some support but fall or fell way short of getting in. Dale Murphy for example. I think Kirby (who I think was great to watch play) was a sympathetic vote, especially on the first ballot and he's usually one of the guys that Bernie is beating out in these categories. Bernie may get in, but he'll get in on the Jeter argument. The intangibles and the 4 rings. Statistically, he's not a HOFer in my humble opinion.

[J W]

Well, this is just where the intangibles and four rings might mean something. A borderline candidate.

Bernie is one of those cases where I'm really rooting for him to get in, hoping he achieves enough stats to make it legit. Though he's on the other side of the fence now, knowing me he'll have my theoretical vote fairly soon.

Hmmm... does that qualify as a "sympothy vote"? I think it does; what if some major dirt is dug up on him soon? I think I might feel differently--subconsciously if anything.

[johnnypapa]

Bernie Williams - HOF?

[1905 Giants]

Bernie Williams
OPS+ 127
2218 hits
Good Fielder
4 gold gloves

Played for a ood team his career

I give him a solid chance

[johnnypapa]

Bernie Williams
OPS+ 127
2218 hits
Good Fielder
4 gold gloves

Played for a ood team his career

I give him a solid chance


I started this poll because I always thought Williams was borderline at best but then I heard a discussion about it on ESPN radio. Max Kellerman was making the argument (and a pretty strong one at that). I took a closer look at Williams stats. To add to the above....


Career RCAA 344
Career RCAP 354


jp

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bernie Williams
OPS+ 127
2218 hits
Good Fielder
4 gold gloves

Played for a ood team his career

I give him a solid chance

He was never the best CF in baseball. He was never the best CF in the AL. For many of his best years, he was behind not only Griffey, but Lofton, in his better years.

Bernie's career from 1995-2002 is a HOF-worthy career, but he got started a little late, and didn't become a star until he was in his late 20s. If his best years started 2 years earlier and ended two years later, he'd have a chance. As it is, he's not likely, unless he stays long enough to give 3,000 hits a run, and I doubt he can even start to do that at his age.

[mac195]

Bernie looked to be on course for the HOF through the 2002 season, but then his level of performance just dropped off the table. Now, as he completes his 4th straight mediocre year, his rate stats have fallen to the point that they don't catch your eye like they did. His counting stats are not really impressive enough for a player of this era, and he isn't likely to add much more to them before he retires. Bernie's had a very good career, but his chances of making the HOF are slim to none.

[johnnypapa]

1995 - 2002 OPS

Ken Griffey jr. .958
Bernie Williams .937
Jim Edmonds .922
Steve Finley .821
Kenny Lofton .796


1995-2002 RCAA

Bernie Williams 339
Ken Griffey jr. 276
Jim Edmonds 248

Lofton was 7th with 99


jp

[PhilWings24]

i'd be very surprised if he doesnt make it, but i don't think he should be as much of a lock as i bet he'll turn out to be.

he should have a decent shot as just a normal CF, but his classiness as a human being and his image as the consummate winner should end up getting him in.

[KCGHOST]

He might make it but his counting numbers are a little light and he has been a defensive liability for years.

[mac195]

1995 - 2002 OPS

Ken Griffey jr. .958
Bernie Williams .937
Jim Edmonds .922
Steve Finley .821
Kenny Lofton .796


1995-2002 RCAA

Bernie Williams 339
Ken Griffey jr. 276
Jim Edmonds 248

Lofton was 7th with 99


jp

Those eight years were Williams' peak. They were not the peak years of any of the other players listed.

Edmonds is actually a pretty close comparison to Williams. I don't think he'll make it either, but he still has a decent chance if he can put together a couple more good years. Bernie on the other hand is just about done.

[johnnypapa]

[QUOTE=mac195]Those eight years were Williams' peak. They were not the peak years of any of the other players listed.

Yes, I know...I was responding to Fuzzy Bear's statement that Williams was not even the best CF in his peak years. I should have quoted him...my mistake.


jp

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds, by the way, has hurt his chances this year. If he doesn't recover from his concussion problems, which appear to now be serious, his HOF chances are in jeopardy.

Lofton, on the other hand, has done a lot to help his chances this year; he's got his BA back to .300, I think. This will be a big plus for him, since he's not likely to get to 3K.

[Myankee4life]

Bernie's having his best season since 2002. He needs a few HR for 300 and could very well get 2500 hits. Also Bernie's hinted that he wants to play a few more years. If he gets near 400 HR and 2700 hits, hes in.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bernie's having his best season since 2002. He needs a few HR for 300 and could very well get 2500 hits. Also Bernie's hinted that he wants to play a few more years. If he gets near 400 HR and 2700 hits, hes in.

No way. If Bernie, why not Al Oliver? Why not Vada Pinson?

Right now, if Bernie, why not Fred Lynn? Lynn was far more of an impact player than Bernie.

Williams won't make it to 350 HRs; he'll barely make 300, and he'll have to play regularly next year to do that.

[EvanAparra]

i'd be very surprised if he doesnt make it, but i don't think he should be as much of a lock as i bet he'll turn out to be.

he should have a decent shot as just a normal CF, but his classiness as a human being and his image as the consummate winner should end up getting him in.

Id be very surprised if he did make it. He needs to put up a couple more good years to make it, IMO.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Id be very surprised if he did make it. He needs to put up a couple more good years to make it, IMO.

A few more good years at a level that Bernie is no longer at.

He'll be a part timer from here on out.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Very borderline indeed:

Career EQA- .290

Best EQA- .325

Translated Career HR- 334

Translated Single Season best HR- 30

Translated Career BA- .305

Translated Single Season best BA- .353 (2nd- .349, 3rd- .340)

Translated Career OBP- .391

Translated Single Season best OBP- .441 (2nd-.440)

Translated Career SLG%- .506

Translated Single Season best SLG%- .624

Career SB- 147

Career CS- 90

Best SB Season- 1996, 16/20

Career WARP3- 101.1

Best Single Season WARP 3- 1999, 10.8

3 Year Peak WARP 3- 1998-2000, 9.0, 10.8, 8.4

Throw in some good defense and you have a tough question.

His biggest advantages seem to be his tremendous on base ability and great intangibles. I don`t think so. He doesn`t have quite enough power IMO. Unless he puts in some years I don`t think he has he doesn`t deserve to get in (yes I`m becoming tougher with who i think should get in) he might get in because of his rings and intangibles but his numbers tell me maybe and leaning towards the NO side of the gray-zone if you know what I mean.

[538280]

Very borderline indeed:
Throw in some good defense and you have a tough question.

Word of advice: Quit making posts that have nothing but BP stats. It's for your own good, trust me.

[DoubleX]

I'm a huge Bernie fan. He's been my favorite Yankee going back to before the recent WS years. That being said, I don't think he'll make it or deserves it. Borderline, perhaps, but that constitutes a pretty large group of CFers.

[EvanAparra]

A few more good years at a level that Bernie is no longer at.

He'll be a part timer from here on out.

Exactly why i would be surprised if he would make it.

[JimAbbott]

Bernie is a solid journeyman center fielder. He is not a HOFer though. He will never get the 2700 hits and 400 HRs as suggested above. He is washed up at this point and is only playing a lot this year due to Matsui's injury

[rsuriyop]

Although I wouldn't vote for his enshrinement, he's one of those players who I wouldn't mind getting in either way. Good #'s, but not great. If he were to put up 2-3 more such years, however, only then would he get my vote. Final analysis: borderline.

[mtortolero]

Not before Dale Murphy.

[Brad Harris]

Not the best center fielder not in. Not the best Yankee not in. Not the best player from his era not in. Down those lists.

However, I'm inclined to say "yes," he belongs. Will be one of the weaker choices, I suppose, but he's still over the line if you consider the whole package.

He'll get homer votes from the Yankee fans among the BBWAA and not much else. Perhaps 30% in his initial ballot. Won't be elected.

[GiambiJuice]

Bernie is a solid journeyman center fielder. He is not a HOFer though. He will never get the 2700 hits and 400 HRs as suggested above. He is washed up at this point and is only playing a lot this year due to Matsui's injury

Bernie, a journeyman???

he's been on one team for 17 years!

[Sliding Billy]

Bernie, a journeyman???

he's been on one team for 17 years!
"Journeyman" means a day laborer, someone between a master and an apprentice, not a traveler.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Being the all itme leader in post season helps him too. Dude hit 22 jacks in the post season, he's in.

[Redondos]

Bernie's lifetime regular season stats aren't eye-popping. Does anyone think his postseason numbers (22 HRs, 80 RBIs, 83 runs) might at least garner him some moderate support for Cooperstown that will keep him on the BBWAA ballot for a few years?

[KCGHOST]

To me Bernie has been something of an "under the radar" guy. I think he is worthy of discussion though I would probably vote against him.

[dl4060]

Definitely worthy of discussion. I'm not sure how I would vote. Bernie is very close, and I think better than many people think. The core of his career, 95-02 was excellent, he was a complete player, good at every aspect of the game. He was a center fielder, which gives him added value. He's close, not sure how I would lean.

I thnk Jeter is slightly overrated, while Bernie is underrated. If he had been able to put together three more seasons which would have fit in with 95-02 he would get there. He has had a normal decline period, if he had shown exceptional longevity that might have put him over the edge. A class act, played the game the right way.

[JordanDL3891]

Comming from a Yankee fan, I don't think Bernie will make the Hall, he is a great guy, and a key player, but he wasn't amazing. He didn't hit 30-40 hrs every year, with a .310 avg.

Derek Jeter, I don't know, he is very popular, but I don't think he is overrated. I think he is just very popular. Because if you look at a lot of fantasy games, they underrate him, they say rollins is better, and reyes too. I think Reyes will become better, but not yet, he hasn't batted OVER .300 yet.

if you look at that, then Cano is even better than Reyes!

(though Cano actualy is a very good player, but I mean compared to what fantasy games say between Cano and reyes)

[dl4060]

Comming from a Yankee fan, I don't think Bernie will make the Hall, he is a great guy, and a key player, but he wasn't amazing. He didn't hit 30-40 hrs every year, with a .310 avg.

Derek Jeter, I don't know, he is very popular, but I don't think he is overrated. I think he is just very popular. Because if you look at a lot of fantasy games, they underrate him, they say rollins is better, and reyes too. I think Reyes will become better, but not yet, he hasn't batted OVER .300 yet.

if you look at that, then Cano is even better than Reyes!

(though Cano actualy is a very good player, but I mean compared to what fantasy games say between Cano and reyes)

I don't think there is any way Reyes is better than Jeter. He has a long way to go. Jeter was voted the face of baseball, when he is clearly not close to being the best player in the game. There are lots of casual fans who think he is baseball's best player, when he is clearly not. He is much like David Bechkam in this way, clearly a great player, but also clearly overrated. The fact that people try to argue that he is better than Arod is absurd. There are many threads about this so I'm not going to go into it here, I don't know what fantasy games say about him and I don't really care. As I said before, Reyes and Rollins have a long way to go before they are in Jeter's class.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Black Ink: Batting - 4 (401) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 61 (398) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.3 (84) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 133.0 (96) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

The HOF standards number jumps out at me.

Most borderline cases are in the mid 30s to low 40s, but Bernie is close to the AVERAGE HOFer.

Some of that comes from a position bonus from playing CF, but Bernie really surprises me here. His case is much stronger than I thought.

[Cougar]

The Monitor Score is pretty noteworthy too. 133 is what BJ called a sure thing when he first created the metric. Granted, I think the index might need some recalibration, since 15 years or so have passed, but still...

I think a large bit of the Monitor score is tied to the Yankees' success. I don't think that's quite so true of the Standards score -- I'd have to look that up.

The thing that hurts are the low Ink scores. It's a really peculiar combination -- Bernie was so consistently productive for a long time that he piled up those Standards scores and Monitor scores, but never had that big counting stats year or two to pile up Ink.

He missed out on a lot of Ink, esp. gray ink, because almost every season he'd have like one 15 or 20-day stint on the DL -- just enough to knock him from the top 10 in hits, doubles, triples, HR, RBI, BB...

If you look at the record, he's only played in 150 games twice, even though he doesn't have an obviously truncated season jumping out at you.

Take 1997 and 1998:
In 1997 his triple crown stats were .328/21/100 -- in 129 games!
In 1998 his triple crown stats were .339/26/97 -- in 128 games!

The stats are so good that you don't notice he missed about a month each season. Had he played those months -- these would be monster years, 120 RBI with real high BA, and he probably gets 20+ steals too (he had 15 both years), while he's winning GG in CF.

That missed time in what were really his prime seasons is really hurting his case in a very subtle way.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bernie's got star quality and is perceived as a star; this will help him. That perception is not wrong; he really has been a star for a number of years.

I'm not going to beat the drum for Bernabe, but it won't be bad if he gets in.

[DoubleX]

I don't believe Bernie will or should make the Hall, but he was my favorite player for several years, and I believe he was the centerpiece of the most recent Yankees dynasty, and I don't believe he ever quite got the attention and praise he deserved, despite being on those great teams in New York. Time after time, I remember listening to interviews with opposing managers and players and they all said the guy that scared them the most in those Yankees lineups, the guy they really had to be careful with, was Bernie Williams.

[ElHalo]

I don't believe Bernie will or should make the Hall, but he was my favorite player for several years, and I believe he was the centerpiece of the most recent Yankees dynasty, and I don't believe he ever quite got the attention and praise he deserved, despite being on those great teams in New York. Time after time, I remember listening to interviews with opposing managers and players and they all said the guy that scared them the most in those Yankees lineups, the guy they really had to be careful with, was Bernie Williams.

Yeah, ditto. If he hadn't fallen off so suddenly and dramatically, he'd have a fantastic case for being the best player to not make the HoF (because I think that even with two or three more 2002 type years, he wouldn't make it).

[iPod]

The numbers really aren't very close to what you expect out of a Hall of Famer. I'm a little surprised, since I had always just assumed for some reason that he was a borderline candidate.

[DoubleX]

The numbers really aren't very close to what you expect out of a Hall of Famer. I'm a little surprised, since I had always just assumed for some reason that he was a borderline candidate.

In a different era, I think his numbers coupled with being on all those great teams, would probably be enough to put him over the line. But playing in the era he did, his numbers aren't as impressive as they probably should be for the Hall.

[JD6]

Bernie Williams absolutely deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. If you look at some of the all-time yankees stats, Bernie's name is right up there. You just can't ignore him if his name is up there with players like Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehrig.

Yankees All-time:
#3 in at-bats with 7869 (behind mantle and Gehrig)
#4 in hits with 2336 (begind mantle, ruth, and gehrig)
- #2 in doubles (behing gehrig)
#6 in HRs with 287
#6 in RBIs with 1257

In all of these categories he is higher than guys like Mattingly and Paul O'niel who everbody thinks should easily make it to the hall.

[hellborn]

Bernie Williams absolutely deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. If you look at some of the all-time yankees stats, Bernie's name is right up there. You just can't ignore him if his name is up there with players like Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehrig.

Yankees All-time:
#3 in at-bats with 7869 (behind mantle and Gehrig)
#4 in hits with 2336 (begind mantle, ruth, and gehrig)
- #2 in doubles (behing gehrig)
#6 in HRs with 287
#6 in RBIs with 1257

In all of these categories he is higher than guys like Mattingly and Paul O'niel who everbody thinks should easily make it to the hall.

I think that Bernie is a better player than Mattingly or O'Neill (despite not quite matching Don's brief peak), but I don't believe that either one of those men has a shot at making the HOF.

[jalbright]

Bernie Williams absolutely deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. If you look at some of the all-time yankees stats, Bernie's name is right up there. You just can't ignore him if his name is up there with players like Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehrig.

Yankees All-time:
#3 in at-bats with 7869 (behind mantle and Gehrig)
#4 in hits with 2336 (begind mantle, ruth, and gehrig)
- #2 in doubles (behing gehrig)
#6 in HRs with 287
#6 in RBIs with 1257

In all of these categories he is higher than guys like Mattingly and Paul O'niel who everbody thinks should easily make it to the hall.

Eliminating all non-Yankees is a bogus way of making the argument, IMO. Also, while there's at least serious support for Mattingly and some for O'Neill, they're hardly locks to make the Hall. In either case, it's entirely possible they won't make it. Furthermore, why is 2300+ hits with 287 HR a HOF argument for the HOF for an outfielder?

Jim Albright

[Redondos]

Furthermore, why is 2300+ hits with 287 HR a HOF argument for the HOF for an outfielder?

Jim Albright

Well, not just any outfielder, but a centerfielder, and a GG winning one at that.

As Cougar brought out in his very eloquent post, injuries turned what could have been monster MVP years into seasons which were just "very good." The time spent on the DL during what were his peak seasons likely prevented Bernie from padding his lifetime regular season stats. If you want to keep harping on that and focusing on nothing else, you can. And you wouldn't be alone.

But from this thread, you can see that I'm not alone either when it comes to Bernie getting some consideration. I think Bernie's case is a little tricky because how does his performance in the postseason (which is very considerable) fit into the HOF equation? How much more weight does postseason at-bats carry than regular season ones, with pennants and world titles on the line? Beyond the 1996 ALCS MVP he won, look at Bernie's stats in the postseason and see how many individual series there were when he batted .400 or better. Take away some of his contributions, and would the Joe Torre-led Yankees still have won 6 pennants and 4 World Series? At the very least, it's something to think about. Hence, all the interesting discussion and debate in this thread.

[jalbright]

Well, not just any outfielder, but a centerfielder, and a GG winning one at that.

As Cougar brought out in his very eloquent post, injuries turned what could have been monster MVP years into seasons which were just "very good." The time spent on the DL during what were his peak seasons likely prevented Bernie from padding his lifetime regular season stats. If you want to keep harping on that and focusing on nothing else, you can. And you wouldn't be alone.

But from this thread, you can see that I'm not alone either when it comes to Bernie getting some consideration. I think Bernie's case is a little tricky because how does his performance in the postseason (which is very considerable) fit into the HOF equation? How much more weight does postseason at-bats carry than regular season ones, with pennants and world titles on the line? Beyond the 1996 ALCS MVP he won, look at Bernie's stats in the postseason and see how many individual series there were when he batted .400 or better. Take away some of his contributions, and would the Joe Torre-led Yankees still have won 6 pennants and 4 World Series? At the very least, it's something to think about. Hence, all the interesting discussion and debate in this thread.
That's a very different argument than the one I was reacting to. I don't buy it, but it's a lot more reasonable. The argument I quoted and questioned was far less well thought out IMO. In my book Williams is good, but he gets no real credit for having impeccable taste in teammates--if he played with the Phillies. Pirates or Royals, how many chances would he have had to amass those postseason heroics? Very few if any.

Jim Albright

[Redondos]

In my book Williams is good, but he gets no real credit for having impeccable taste in teammates--if he played with the Phillies. Pirates or Royals, how many chances would he have had to amass those postseason heroics? Very few if any.

Jim Albright

Perhaps, but then again, the same kind of thinking usually prevails when it comes to the regular season MVP awards, doesn't it? (Most winners usually being members of championship or contending teams.) Is it fair for the guys compiling monster stats to be "penalized" in the MVP voting for being on cellar-dwelling teams? Is it fair for the player chosen as MVP that he gets a boost from "having impeccable taste in teammates?" Whether this is fair or not is a debate for another thread. The point here is,.... people's perception of a good player is, for the most part, usually enhanced by their being on winning teams. Exactly how much it is enhanced varies from case to case, of course. But it certainly has an impact on MVP voting. That's the reality.

Does it have an impact on HOF selection? Look at the regular season stats of Lefty Gomez and compare it to what he did in the World Series. You tell me that Lefty going 6-0 with a 2.86 ERA in WS play had absolutely nothing to do with him being in Cooperstown today.

[nerfan]

Bernie Williams Counting Stats/John Olerud Counting Stats
(Williams/Olerud)

PA: 9053.....9063
Runs: 1366.....1139
Hits: 2366.....2239
Doubles: 449.....500
Triples: 55.....13
Home Runs: 287.....255
RBI: 1257.....1230
SB: 147.....11
CS: 87.....14
BB: 1069.....1275
SO: 1212.....1016
IBB: 97.....157
HBP: 39.....88

Rate Stats

BA: .297..... .295
OBP: .381..... .398
SLG: .477..... .465
OPS+: 125.....129
RC/27: 6.66.....6.61

Olerud also deserved an MVP in 1993, and had easily eight All-Star type seasons.

To me they are the same player.

And, for all the talk about Bernie's postseason heroics... Olerud's got similar postseason numbers.

I don't suppose we'll be seeing the overprotected Olerud in the HoF soon, do you?

Neither do I.

And I don't think Bernie belongs.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bernie Williams Counting Stats/John Olerud Counting Stats
(Williams/Olerud)

PA: 9053.....9063
Runs: 1366.....1139
Hits: 2366.....2239
Doubles: 449.....500
Triples: 55.....13
Home Runs: 287.....255
RBI: 1257.....1230
SB: 147.....11
CS: 87.....14
BB: 1069.....1275
SO: 1212.....1016
IBB: 97.....157
HBP: 39.....88

Rate Stats

BA: .297..... .295
OBP: .381..... .398
SLG: .477..... .465
OPS+: 125.....129
RC/27: 6.66.....6.61

Olerud also deserved an MVP in 1993, and had easily eight All-Star type seasons.

To me they are the same player.

And, for all the talk about Bernie's postseason heroics... Olerud's got similar postseason numbers.

I don't suppose we'll be seeing the overprotected Olerud in the HoF soon, do you?

Neither do I.

And I don't think Bernie belongs.

Olerud's defense came at FIRST base, a less critical defensive position. Edge to Bernie.

Bernie was far more consistent from year to year. Olerud had some super years, but his 1993 and 1998 seasons are fluke seasons, rather than peak seasons; they are out of context with Olerud's career.

Olerud retired for personal reasons, to be sure, but his chances for 3,000 hits pretty much ended with his disappointing 2003 season. That season was, in retrospect, a clear change of his level of performance. Olerud was the kind of guy who NEEDED 3,000 hits for the HOF, and after 2003, that wasn't going to happen.

[Redondos]

Olerud's defense came at FIRST base, a less critical defensive position. Edge to Bernie.

Here here! A much better comparison to Bernie would be someone like Kirby Puckett, who got into Cooperstown despite getting "only" 2,304 hits and 207 HRs.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Here here! A much better comparison to Bernie would be someone like Kirby Puckett, who got into Cooperstown despite getting "only" 2,304 hits and 207 HRs.

Puckett's career, however, was cut short by glaucoma, a condition that was not his fault, not a result of natural aging, and not a result of his particular skill base or the way he played.

Had Puckett not had the glaucoma, he would have gotten to 3,000 hits, and then there wouldn't be the debates about his candidacy that we have had.

The only part of his career that Puckett is misssing is his decline phase; we've seen all of Kirby's best. Bernie needed his decline phase to get to the career totals that Kirby had.

Bernie has some edges on Kirby; a higher OBP, with identical slugging. It could be argued that Bernie's peak was higher than Kirby's. Puckett was a great player, and a guy for whom much of the intangible rah-rah stuff was actually true, and something that helped his teams win, but one can make the case that Bernie's peak numbers were better than Kirby's. Kirby's peak was longer, however.

[Redondos]

Puckett's career, however, was cut short by glaucoma, a condition that was not his fault, not a result of natural aging, and not a result of his particular skill base or the way he played.

I think speculation on the kind of stats Puckett "could" have put up had it not been for his medical condition was factored into his HOF selection,... but only up to a point.

I mean, what could Thurman Munson have done had he not crashed his jet? I think many voters did give some allowance for "what he could have done", which is why his name stayed on the BBWAA ballot for 15 years. But obviously, that alone wasn't enough to get him into the hall.

In Puckett's case, I believe there were many other factors at work going in his favor besides specs on what his lifetime stats were going to be. His "good guy/humanitarian" image as evidenced by the Branch Rickey award he won. He was highly popular and beloved by the fans as well as very being personable to the media, including those guys who vote for the HOF. (OTOH, it didn't help Munson's case that he was oftentimes gruff with reporters.) Last but certainly not least, Kirby came through with two great postseasons in 1987 and 1991 that brought the Twins their only world championships, which made him a bigger than life figure in Minnesota, even after his premature retirement and quickly ballooning waistline. Hmmm, what was that about Kirby being a lock to get 3,000 hits?

No, I think there many other factors which got him into the hall beyond the perception of "Mr. Coulda, Shoulda had 3000 Hits."

[DoubleX]

In Puckett's case, I believe there were many other factors at work going in his favor besides specs on what his lifetime stats were going to be. His "good guy/humanitarian" image as evidenced by the Branch Rickey award he won. He was highly popular and beloved by the fans as well as very being personable to the media, including those guys who vote for the HOF. (OTOH, it didn't Munson's case that he was oftentimes gruff with reporters.) Last but certainly not least, Kirby came through with two great postseasons in 1987 and 1991 that brought the Twins their only world championships, which made him a bigger than life figure in Minnesota, even after his premature retirement and quickly ballooning waistline. Hmmm, what was that about Kirby being a lock to get 3,000 hits?

No, I think there many other factors which got him into the hall beyond the perception of "Mr. Coulda, Shoulda had 3000 Hits."

I agree. The Hall of Fame, despite how many of us would like it to be, is not strictly based on ability, there are many other subjective elements that go into being a Hall of Famer. A ranking of players based on statistical analysis will not exactly mirror a list of players worthy of the Hall of Fame. In that vein, Puckett has a ton of things going for him. First, he was a very good all around player. He had 2300 hits by age 35, showed no signs of slowing up in his last season, and seemed a virtual lock to get to 3000. He has the postseason heroics, so that goes in his favor. He was named to 10 consecutive All Star teams in just a 12 year career. He won six Gold Gloves and six Silver Sluggers, attesting to his all around ability at a key defensive position. A shiny .318 BA. He finished his career an impressive 47th in career MVP shares despite playing just 12 years. And as the awards and MVP finishes and All Star appearances indicate, he was generally regarded as among the best in the game for a decade and had an image as one of the good guys who just went out there and played. I remember him quite clearly as being regarded as among the best players and biggest names in the game when he played. Combine that with the fact that his career was cut short in his prime, it's no surprise here that he was a 1st Ballot Hall of Famer.

[dl4060]

Perhaps, but then again, the same kind of thinking usually prevails when it comes to the regular season MVP awards, doesn't it? (Most winners usually being members of championship or contending teams.) Is it fair for the guys compiling monster stats to be "penalized" in the MVP voting for being on cellar-dwelling teams? Is it fair for the player chosen as MVP that he gets a boost from "having impeccable taste in teammates?" Whether this is fair or not is a debate for another thread. The point here is,.... people's perception of a good player is, for the most part, usually enhanced by their being on winning teams. Exactly how much it is enhanced varies from case to case, of course. But it certainly has an impact on MVP voting. That's the reality.

Does it have an impact on HOF selection? Look at the regular season stats of Lefty Gomez and compare it to what he did in the World Series. You tell me that Lefty going 6-0 with a 2.86 ERA in WS play had absolutely nothing to do with him being in Cooperstown today.

I agree as far as MVP awards go. I don't really look at them when assessing whether or not someone should go into the hall. I give postseason heroics some credit, but really not all that much. It might get someone over the edge, but the way I see it teams win, not players.

[Colorado Express]

Bernie falls below the HOF standard line IMO, but he certainly is worthy of discussion.

[yankillaz]

I think that Bernie has a strong case, but nevertheless, he won't make it. Other good cfers, haven't had the desired support: Jimmy Wynn, Vada Pinson, Bobby Bonds, Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy. Both Pinson and Murphy had outstanding careers and neither will make it. This means that Bernie won't either. Seems a lot like Edmonds and Finley.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think that Bernie has a strong case, but nevertheless, he won't make it. Other good cfers, haven't had the desired support: Jimmy Wynn, Vada Pinson, Bobby Bonds, Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy. Both Pinson and Murphy had outstanding careers and neither will make it. This means that Bernie won't either. Seems a lot like Edmonds and Finley.

Wynn, Pinson, Bonds, Lynn, and Murphy all had truncated careers and finished weakly. Bernie hasn't been the best finisher, but his career has a more normal progression and is a little less truncated. Murphy's isn't all that truncated, but he was done as a star after age 32.

[yankillaz]

But Murphy's peak, compared to that of Williams, is better IMO. All of them had stellar careers, and are the players i can think of that are more comparable to Williams in their respective HOF considerations.

[DTF955]

I'd compare him more to Tony Oliva.

Oliva gets more clout becasue of his hitting versus league average, but that's balanced out by Williams' gold glove and postseason. Both had injuries take away from very promising careers; Oliva's more bunched up than Williams', but still, injuries hurt both just enough that people will talk about them for years, and there will be discussion on these boards for a long while about him. But, in the end, while he will have his supporters, Bernie will fall just short.

[Fuzzy Bear]

But Murphy's peak, compared to that of Williams, is better IMO. All of them had stellar careers, and are the players i can think of that are more comparable to Williams in their respective HOF considerations.

Murphy's peak was much higher than Williams' peak; this is unquestionably true.

Murphy is a definite HOFer if you believe that peak value alone can a HOFer make. Not everyone believes that around here (although I do, to a point).

[ElHalo]

Murphy's peak was much higher than Williams' peak; this is unquestionably true.

Why is that unquestionably true?

In Murphy's two MVP years, he had the following lines:
.281/.378/.507, 142 OPS+, 36 HR, 109 RBI, 113 R, 23 2B, 23 SB, GG
.302/.393/.540, 150 OPS+, 36 HR, 121 RBI, 131 R, 24 2B, 30 SB, GG

Bernie's two best seasons, he had the following lines:
.339/.422/.575, 159 OPS+, 26 HR, 97 RBI, 101 R, 30 2B, 15 SB, GG (missed 30 games to injury, won batting title)
.342/.435/.536, 157 OPS+, 25 HR, 115 RBI, 116 R, 28 2B, 9 SB, GG

From where I sit, Murphy was probably the better baserunner, and was better than Bernie at staying on the field (hard to believe, but Bernie's only played over 150 games twice in his career, a bigt negative mark on him). Bernie was the better hitter, though, and just as good a fielder (four straight GG's).

[Yankees 27]

Bernie is a borderline player in my opinion. He most likely won't get in but there's a small chance. He was a consistant player but none of his stats during his career really stood out. I like to believe post season performance effects a player's chances, but it shouldn't make too big of an impact. Winning 4 Gold Gloves and winning a batting title, along with four championships, should help. As much as I would like to see him get in I don't think he will.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Why is that unquestionably true?

I suppose "unquestionably" is a strong word.

Still, Murphy, at his peak, was, arguably, the best player in baseball for two years. Back to back DESERVING MVP seasons. Murphy, more than any other player on his team, turned his team into a contender from a loser. Bernie never had two years, let alone two back to back years, as Murph did in 1982-83.

On the Keltner list, Murphy is a guy who can possibly say "yes" to the toughest question: "Was he ever the best player in baseball?" People suggested frequently that he was in his best years with the Braves. Williams never approached that status, though he was a fine player, and had greater longevity.

OPS, by the way, is a stat that needs to be adjusted for era. That Bernie missed 30 games due to injury in one of his best seasons is NOT a plus, in my opinion.

[ElHalo]

Still, Murphy, at his peak, was, arguably, the best player in baseball for two years. Back to back DESERVING MVP seasons. Murphy, more than any other player on his team, turned his team into a contender from a loser. Bernie never had two years, let alone two back to back years, as Murph did in 1982-83.

I do agree that Murphy probably was the best player in baseball for those two years, while Bernie pretty clearly wasn't. That, to me, is a reflection of how weak and star-barren the '80's were, rather than a reflection of their relative merit. In my opinion, Bernie was a better player at his best ('98-'99) than Murphy was at his ('82-'83)(although Bernie does get demerits for his regular injuries); the fact that Bernie wasn't one of the five best players in the game rather than the best, as Murphy was, just says that Bernie played in a vastly stronger era with vastly better stars.

[yankillaz]

And vastly better pharmaceuticals...

C'mon EH, i know you're a Yankees fan and all, but in the 80's you had to be there to understand the greatness of such player. Something you never heard of Bernie Williams.

[ElHalo]

And vastly better pharmaceuticals...

C'mon EH, i know you're a Yankees fan and all, but in the 80's you had to be there to understand the greatness of such player. Something you never heard of Bernie Williams.

Yes, I'm a Yankee fan; no, I'm not an irrational Yankee fan. In my opinion, being the best player in the NL in the early 80's is probably not as impressive as being the 20th best player in the AL in the late 90's. The league was just much, much, MUCH stronger. If you think it's just a Yankee bias, it's not... Dave Winfield's a HoF'er for the Yankees; Albert Belle never played for the Yanks and was dropped from the Hall ballot his first year. But I think Belle is a vastly superior player to Winfield. The 80's were just a terrible, terrible time for baseball, that made mediocre players look fantastic.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yes, I'm a Yankee fan; no, I'm not an irrational Yankee fan. In my opinion, being the best player in the NL in the early 80's is probably not as impressive as being the 20th best player in the AL in the late 90's. The league was just much, much, MUCH stronger. If you think it's just a Yankee bias, it's not... Dave Winfield's a HoF'er for the Yankees; Albert Belle never played for the Yanks and was dropped from the Hall ballot his first year. But I think Belle is a vastly superior player to Winfield. The 80's were just a terrible, terrible time for baseball, that made mediocre players look fantastic.
Not a good anaolgy. You are ignoring the real reasons Winfield is in the HoF and Belle never will be. Winfield had a long carer, 3,000+ hits, 12 time All-Star, 7 Gold Gloves. You never saw Winfield in his prime. I did. He was considered a great all-around player in his prime. He didn't have a huge peak like Belle and I know you are a "peak" guy. Belle had a short career and thus missed out on all the major career milestones. Plus, Belle, was not well liked by the media. If Belle would have had a normal decline I believe strongly that he would have been inducted to the HOF. He would have easily cleared 500 HRs, perhaps even 600 HRs.

And I will never agree that the 1980s sucked. It was a time of balance between offense and pitching.

[dl4060]

I think the 80's had less of a difference between the best and worst players than the 90's. I think the 90's were overall a stronger era, but I would not go so far as to call the 80's extremely weak. I think we had a larger number of players clustered around the median, but I don't see that median as too much lower than the 90's median, just somewhat lower.

[AstrosFan]

Yes, I'm a Yankee fan; no, I'm not an irrational Yankee fan. In my opinion, being the best player in the NL in the early 80's is probably not as impressive as being the 20th best player in the AL in the late 90's. The league was just much, much, MUCH stronger. If you think it's just a Yankee bias, it's not... Dave Winfield's a HoF'er for the Yankees; Albert Belle never played for the Yanks and was dropped from the Hall ballot his first year. But I think Belle is a vastly superior player to Winfield. The 80's were just a terrible, terrible time for baseball, that made mediocre players look fantastic.

So, there were 20 players who played in the late '90s AL who were better than Mike Schmidt? Let's see them.

[ElHalo]

So, there were 20 players who played in the late '90s AL who were better than Mike Schmidt? Let's see them.

20 might be stretching it. But players I'd say since 1995 who are clearly, in my view, better than Schmidt (and by that I mean currently rank ahead of him on my all time player rankings) include Frank Thomas, Ivan Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Albert Pujols, and Ken Griffey Jr., (I guess some would insert that Bonds guy here; I'm loathe to). I'm gonna throw an unlikely but not impossible label on Derek Jeter. Other than Bonds, Piazza, and Pujols, those are all AL'ers.

I actually think Jeter's a pretty good argument there. I have a feeling Jeter will end up with better longevity than Schmidt; we'll have to hold off and see on that. The difference between a great defensive 3B and a poor defensive SS is, in my view, a wash. And I call Jeter a better offensive player (Jeter's pretty clearly the better baserunner, and I'd gladly trade Schmidt's 24 point OPS+ edge for Jeter's 50 point BA edge). I actually think that if Jeter can manage to stay healthy through age 40 (relatively reasonable) and come close to maintaining his current averages (somewhat less likely), it'll be hard to say Schmidt's the better player. Schmidt looks hot because his league was terrible, but he really wasn't all that great of a ballplayer.

[Redondos]

20 might be stretching it. But players I'd say since 1995 who are clearly, in my view, better than Schmidt (and by that I mean currently rank ahead of him on my all time player rankings) include Frank Thomas, Ivan Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Albert Pujols, and Ken Griffey Jr., (I guess some would insert that Bonds guy here; I'm loathe to). I'm gonna throw an unlikely but not impossible label on Derek Jeter. Other than Bonds, Piazza, and Pujols, those are all AL'ers.

So from 20 ALers, you're down to naming only 5. Talk about being the worst enemy of your own argument.

And why is Albert Pujols even in this discussion about players from the late '90s. His career didn't start until 2001.

[PVNICK]

I think he's more worthy than a cursory glance might reveal.

Career numbers Awards
R - 1366 All-Star 1997-2001
H - 2336 Gold Glove 1997-2000
HR - 287 ALCS MVP 2006
RBI - 1257 Silver Slugger 2002
Avg. .297
OBP .381 American League Batting Champion 1998
SPct .477
OPS+ 125

Black Ink: Batting - 4 (404) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 61 (399) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.4 (82) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 133.0 (99) (Likely HOFer > 100)

His numbers, particularly the black and gray ink, were severely tamped down by Yankee Stadium vis-a-vis the bandboxes most of the rest of his contemporaries were playing with. This made it hard for him to put up numbes rivalling the league leaders. Furthermore, his numbers while MVP caliber twenty years prior were made to look very pedestrian by his peers and seem unimpressive considering what we've grown accustomed to.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I think he's more worthy than a cursory glance might reveal.

Career numbers Awards
R - 1366 All-Star 1997-2001
H - 2336 Gold Glove 1997-2000
HR - 287 ALCS MVP 2006
RBI - 1257 Silver Slugger 2002
Avg. .297
OBP .381 American League Batting Champion 1998
SPct .477
OPS+ 125

Black Ink: Batting - 4 (404) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 61 (399) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.4 (82) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 133.0 (99) (Likely HOFer > 100)

His numbers, particularly the black and gray ink, were severely tamped down by Yankee Stadium vis-a-vis the bandboxes most of the rest of his contemporaries were playing with. This made it hard for him to put up numbes rivalling the league leaders. Furthermore, his numebrs while MVP caliber twenty years prior were made to look very pedestrian by his peers.

You hit the nail on the head. Williams had good number while likely being hurt by his home park. But amongst his peers, he does not stand out, which a HOF'er should really do. Playing in New York will get him some votes, and he'll deserve them, but it's not enough.

[jalbright]

Merged four Bernie Williams threads together. The poll that survived started Feb 2007.

[dl4060]

. And I call Jeter a better offensive player (Jeter's pretty clearly the better baserunner, and I'd gladly trade Schmidt's 24 point OPS+ edge for Jeter's 50 point BA edge). I actually think that if Jeter can manage to stay healthy through age 40 (relatively reasonable) and come close to maintaining his current averages (somewhat less likely), it'll be hard to say Schmidt's the better player. Schmidt looks hot because his league was terrible, but he really wasn't all that great of a ballplayer.

There is absolutely no way Jeter is a better offensive player than Schmidt. Trading 24 points of OPS+ for 50 points of BA is a great way to score fewer runs. Jeter has an advantage of only 8 points in OBP, and his SLG is .461 versus a league which slugged .429. Schmidt slugged .527 versus a league that slugged .394. I really can't see an intelligent argument for Jeter here.

[penneyAA]

Probably deserving.No more so than Mattingly,in my opinion.

[Walt Zink]

i'm from boston and a big red sox fan, and love to hate the yankees, and i would personally say yes to bernie being inducted.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In Puckett's case, I believe there were many other factors at work going in his favor besides specs on what his lifetime stats were going to be. His "good guy/humanitarian" image as evidenced by the Branch Rickey award he won. He was highly popular and beloved by the fans as well as very being personable to the media, including those guys who vote for the HOF. (OTOH, it didn't help Munson's case that he was oftentimes gruff with reporters.) Last but certainly not least, Kirby came through with two great postseasons in 1987 and 1991 that brought the Twins their only world championships, which made him a bigger than life figure in Minnesota, even after his premature retirement and quickly ballooning waistline. Hmmm, what was that about Kirby being a lock to get 3,000 hits?

No, I think there many other factors which got him into the hall beyond the perception of "Mr. Coulda, Shoulda had 3000 Hits."

I've posted this before, but Kirby Puckett is a deserving HOFer. He didn't have a "short" career, he had a "shortened" career; his career was shortened by factors outside his control.

Puckett is different than Bernie, in that Puckett's career is all prime; he's missing the decline phase. That, to me, is proof of Puckett's excellence; he didn't need to hang on to add to counting stats to bolster his credentials. Bernie probably needed to do that a bit; he was not likely to get to 3,000 hits, but if he had hung in long enough to be the player with the most amount of hits not in the HOF, he'd be a much stronger candidate.

Bernie doesn't seem to get much credit for being a "winning" player, and that's not fair. The "winning" player label certainly helped Puckett, and he certainly deserved that label, but Williams' ascendence coincided with the Yankee return to the postseason. Williams' emergence began in 1994, the strike-shortened season where the Yankees had the best record in the AL. His first real star season was in 1995, when the Yankees won the wild card, and continued through the years where the Yankees went to the series regularly. A number of teammates overshadowed Berne, but the only two players during the pennant winning years that were truly better than Bernie were Jeter and Clemens. And even Clemens is doubtful; he was good but not great in 1999 and 2000. And if you look at Paul O'Neill's numbers, there's no way you'd say he was better than Bernie.

Bernie Williams was the #2 star on a team that won five pennants and four World Series in six years. He's done the kind of things HOFers do. The more I look at his case, the more I become sold on Bernie as a HOFer.

[Walt Zink]

Bernie Williams was the #2 star on a team that won five pennants and four World Series in six years. He's done the kind of things HOFers do. The more I look at his case, the more I become sold on Bernie as a HOFer.

bingo! he was a big reason why the yankees resurged and became a force again. they built around him initially, with jeter being the last cog that i think made it happen. if he hadn't been overshadowed by jeter, i think many people would probably look at him a little more closely.

[philkid3]

[QUOTE=Sashag]

They're valid, just not valid when comparing Bernie Williams to Mickey Mantle or anyone who played prior to the modern playoff format. But I think it's useful when comparing Bernie to his peers and later players when assessing Hall of Fame worthiness.

But then you're also rewarding him for the team he played on. I don't think that's right.

[Fuzzy Bear]

But then you're also rewarding him for the team he played on. I don't think that's right.

In Bernie's case, he was, arguably, the second best player on a team that won 5 pennants and 4 world championships in a small span of time (1996-2001). That's a lot different than being the second best player on the Devil Rays for a 6 year period. The Yankees of 1996-2001 were an all-time great team; a mini-dynasty. The top 2-3 players on those teams would be a good place to START looking for HOFers, don't you think? Bernie was a front line star on a team that was great for a period of years; that fact DOES give him extra credit for the team he played on.

[philipthegreat]

If we are taliking about bernie's place on that great yankee dynasty wouldn't it be easy for him to be second among position players on those teams when you're oppostion where guys like Knoblauch ,Brosius. The only other great position player other than Jeter and Williams might've been Paul O Neil

The only way I think that Bernie Williams will be able to get in is if the VC lends him a helping hand.

[philkid3]

In Bernie's case, he was, arguably, the second best player on a team that won 5 pennants and 4 world championships in a small span of time (1996-2001). That's a lot different than being the second best player on the Devil Rays for a 6 year period.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand how that's true. He would be the exact same player on the Devil Rays, the team around him would just suck more. Why should he get credit for the support Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, David Cone, David Wells, an awesome bullpen and a host of strong, if not amazing, players gave him?

The Yankees of 1996-2001 were an all-time great team; a mini-dynasty. The top 2-3 players on those teams would be a good place to START looking for HOFers, don't you think?
No, I don't think that. I don't even understand it.

[Gregory Pratt]

Are there any people with strong opinions one way or the other about this man's career?

I suspect he will be enshrined in time for being one of the more consistent and excellent overall players of his team -- never one of the "very best" but often one of the very better -- combined with his extraordinary postseason batting numbers.

Your thoughts?

[Cougar]

He's going to be a tough sell in some quarters, because he's a guy who did everything pretty well, but no one thing extremely well, and he fell short of the kind of significant milestones that will anchor an argument, in part because he developed a little slowly and then aged rather suddenly.

He didn't have a exceptionally high peak (i.e., at an MVP-type level), but he had a rather long one, being an All-Star caliber player for close to a decade. He was a useful player for a couple seasons after his bat slowed, and a solid part time guy in his final season. His fielding was very solid most of his career but fell off sharply at the end.

His post-season record is very good...it's heavy on counting stats, but that's because he was a key contributor on a lot of playoff teams. His legacy will be as one of the two or three best position players on the late 1990's Yankee dynasty...Bernie, Jeter, maybe Posada, maybe Paul O'Neill.

I'd support him myself...the rate stats are right there, the legacy is there...we're not supposed to get too hung up on counting stats, right? If not, Bernie is the test case. A 125 career OPS+ from a gold glove caliber center fielder on a multiple WS winner is a pretty darn good case.

[White Knight]

It is very sad that he kind of ran out of gas too soon. If only he had three or four more years he would have made it. He's still not that old, wish he was still playing. :(

[White Knight]

His legacy will be as one of the two or three best position players on the late 1990's Yankee dynasty...Bernie, Jeter, maybe Posada, maybe Paul O'Neill.

Hmm, no Tino?

[henrich]

The posts above I largely agree with, my addition would be that his exposure to all of those writers who vote in this thing saw him play over and over again in October. I think for that reason he gets in...over 11,000 in the H-Factor

[JDD]

I say he is not voted in... for lack of counting stats. It will have something to do with those twenty or so games he would miss every single year. The strike hurt too. His counting stats sure did follow the bell curve, no?

[Cougar]

Hmm, no Tino?

I didn't think of him. He's definitely in the mix...a very underrated and underappreciated player, in my opinion.

I think Jeter and Bernie are pretty clearly 1 & 2...order is a matter of opinion...maybe 1 and 1a.

[Cougar]

I say he is not voted in... for lack of counting stats. It will have something to do with those twenty or so games he would miss every single year. The strike hurt too. His counting stats sure did follow the bell curve, no?

Strike hurt a little, but he didn't come especially close to any particular milestone. Maybe he might have gotten to 300 HR or a .300 career BA, but neither strikes me as very likely at all.

One of the most perfect bell curves in baseball history. If you like that sort of thing, it's almost beautiful.

I think you've got a point about the counting stats...it's not quite that he was especially brittle, and I don't think it's something that one can absolutely rip him over, but he had enough short stints on the DL that it may have really cost him over time. He might have gotten to 2500 hits or 300 HR.

It's likely that the lack of counting stats will hurt him. Should it? I'm inclined to say it should be only a minor demerit.

[jalbright]

merge time.

[Brad Harris]

Is Williams the Dwight Evans of his generation? How does he rate against the other CF of his era: Griffey, Edmonds, Jones and Lofton?

I suppose it depends on where you want to draw the line (as usual). Williams is certainly better than the worst CF in the Hall of Fame, but is he so much better that his absence from Cooperstown is quite visible omission?

[Cougar]

Is Williams the Dwight Evans of his generation? How does he rate against the other CF of his era: Griffey, Edmonds, Jones and Lofton?

I suppose it depends on where you want to draw the line (as usual). Williams is certainly better than the worst CF in the Hall of Fame, but is he so much better that his absence from Cooperstown is quite visible omission?

I was actually thinking of the Dwight Evans comparison myself.

Bernie isn't better than Griffey (obviously), but I'd judge him to be better than the other three, although it's rather close, and they're all different types of players (Lofton a classic leadoff guy, Bernie a #2 or #3 sort, and Edmonds & Jones cleanup or #5 hitters).

It's striking how similar Edmonds and Jones' numbers are. Of course, Jones is only 31 and has the opportunity to improve his numbers significantly if he can extract himself from the horrific funk he's been in.

[Cougar]

The Monitor Score is pretty noteworthy too. 133 is what BJ called a sure thing when he first created the metric. Granted, I think the index might need some recalibration, since 15 years or so have passed, but still...

I think a large bit of the Monitor score is tied to the Yankees' success. I don't think that's quite so true of the Standards score -- I'd have to look that up.

The thing that hurts are the low Ink scores. It's a really peculiar combination -- Bernie was so consistently productive for a long time that he piled up those Standards scores and Monitor scores, but never had that big counting stats year or two to pile up Ink.

He missed out on a lot of Ink, esp. gray ink, because almost every season he'd have like one 15 or 20-day stint on the DL -- just enough to knock him from the top 10 in hits, doubles, triples, HR, RBI, BB...

If you look at the record, he's only played in 150 games twice, even though he doesn't have an obviously truncated season jumping out at you.

Take 1997 and 1998:
In 1997 his triple crown stats were .328/21/100 -- in 129 games!
In 1998 his triple crown stats were .339/26/97 -- in 128 games!

The stats are so good that you don't notice he missed about a month each season. Had he played those months -- these would be monster years, 120 RBI with real high BA, and he probably gets 20+ steals too (he had 15 both years), while he's winning GG in CF.

That missed time in what were really his prime seasons is really hurting his case in a very subtle way.

I'm always relieved when it turns out I said substantially the same thing a year ago that I'm saying now.

[Brad Harris]

I'm always relieved when it turns out I said substantially the same thing a year ago that I'm saying now.
Whereas others prefer to improve over time. ;) (jk of course)

[henrich]

Is Williams the Dwight Evans of his generation? How does he rate against the other CF of his era: Griffey, Edmonds, Jones and Lofton?

I suppose it depends on where you want to draw the line (as usual). Williams is certainly better than the worst CF in the Hall of Fame, but is he so much better that his absence from Cooperstown is quite visible omission?

I have it Griffey 12,924, Williams B. 11,911, Lofton 10,749, Finley 10,633, Jones A. 9480, Edmonds 9471, and then Johnny Damon at 8469.

This supports the above notion that Edmonds and Jones are similar scoring as well.

[lovethegame]

16 yrs avg season is as follows
hr 22 rbi 98 avg 297
obp 381 slg 477 0ps 125
switch hitting cleanup hitter for a dynasty
Welcome to Cooperstown

[Captain Cold Nose]

16 yrs avg season is as follows
hr 22 rbi 98 avg 297
obp 381 slg 477 0ps 125
switch hitting cleanup hitter for a dynasty
Welcome to Cooperstown

What about that exactly says shoo in?

[PVNICK]

Bernie left on a low note. His GG awards look and I think by the end of his career wwere looked at as being less than weel merited. I think he gets killled by playing in Yankee Stadium versus any of the newer hitters parks that many of his contemporaries played in plus probably not taking advantage of any of the other stat enhancing goodies they used. His numbers just won't look very impressive in the context of their time.

[jjpm74]

16 yrs avg season is as follows
hr 22 rbi 98 avg 297
obp 381 slg 477 0ps 125
switch hitting cleanup hitter for a dynasty
Welcome to Cooperstown

The stats pretty much describes about 1000 ball players.

What makes hitting cleanup for a dynasty so special? Are you saying he's in because he had the good fortune to play on an excellent team?

[jalbright]

Another thread merged.

[Brad Harris]

I smell a thread merge in the air...

[Yankeefan94]

I think Bernie will barely miss the hall, but he will undoubtbly have his number retired by the Yankees (along with Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Posada and possibly a few other players from the 90's dynasty) and be regarded as one of the Yankee's greats.

[White Knight]

I think Bernie will barely miss the hall, but he will undoubtbly have his number retired by the Yankees (along with Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Posada and possibly a few other players from the 90's dynasty) and be regarded as one of the Yankee's greats.

I don't see them retiring Petitte's number. The others you mentioned, I agree.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Technically, Rivera's number is retired already, but he will get and does deserve the honor of having the number associated with his name.
You don't need to be a HOF'er to have your number retired by the Yankees. Is 23 retired yet?

[Cougar]

Technically, Rivera's number is retired already, but he will get and does deserve the honor of having the number associated with his name.
You don't need to be a HOF'er to have your number retired by the Yankees. Is 23 retired yet?
Yup it is.

[Brad Harris]

When Bernie debuts on the ballot, he'll most likely be up against the following outfielders: Andre Dawson (if not elected first), Juan Gonzalez (debuts the year before at over 5% likely), Dale Murphy (eligibility almost expired), Tim Raines (strong minority support), Tim Salmon (debut) and Larry Walker (same as Gonzo). How much will Williams really stand out from that crowd, especially outside the NY writers?

[White Knight]

I just don't see how Bernie gets in. NY sports writers didn't elect Mattinglty.

[Brad Harris]

I just don't see how Bernie gets in. NY sports writers didn't elect Mattinglty.

No, and they won't elect Williams. I don't think very many people here believe he will be elected, but the question being tossed around seems to be should he be elected.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I just don't see how Bernie gets in. NY sports writers didn't elect Mattinglty.

Mattingly's case is nowhere near as strong as Bernie's case, IMO.

Mattingly had a higher peak, but we're really talking about four (4) seasons (1984-87). Outside of those seasons, Mattingly was not HOF-quality; indeed, in the 1990s he was just another player at 1B, getting by on his glove work. There were several seasons where Mattingly was clearly below replacement level, and it was only the hope that he's come back to previous levels that kept giving him chances.

Bernie's 1997-99 peak is comparable in value to Mattingly's three best seasons. Bernie never had a season quite as good, offensively, as 1986, but he posted OWPs of .711, .716, and .717 in his three best years. Mattingly's three best were .716, .719, and .753, which are better, but Williams brought more to the table defensively, in that he played a more demanding defensive position (CF) at which he won 4 Gold Gloves. (Mattingly was a perennial Gold Glove winner, even in his declining years, so that narrows the gap in defensive value some.)

The difference is that the REST of Williams' career is so much more impressive than the rest of Mattingly's career. Their career OWPs are close (.619 for Mattingly, .609 for Williams), but Williams clearly did more with the years outside his peak than Mattingly did. I can't see how one could favor Mattingly over Williams, given the whole of their career accomplishments.