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Fuzzy Bear
03-03-2007, 06:33 PM
Sherm Lollar never gets mentioned for the HOF. Bill Freehan gets a decent amount of mention here. I'm not dissing Freehan, but I'm a little surprised that Lollar has never had a thread about him in any of the HOF forums I've ever participated in. (I can't find one here, so I wonder if I'm missing something.)

I thought I'd see how Lollar fares on the Keltner list; it's a starting point for a discussion about his place in history:

Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Of course not.

Was he the best player on his team?

The simple answer is "yes" for one year, only.

In his three (3) years with the Browns, Lollar was the best position player on the team over the entire period. Jerry Priddy was better one year, and Roy Sievers was AL ROY in 1949, but he backslid in 1950. I would say that Lollar was the best position player on the Browns in 1950-51, and was probably the best player on the team in 1950. (Ned Garver, a pitcher, had the season of his life in 1951.) This isn't an overwhelming credential; the Browns were, far and away, the worst team in baseball during Lollar's tenure.

With the Chisox, Lollar ranked behind Nellie Fox (a HOFer), Minnie Minoso (an oughtabe HOFer), and Billy Pierce (a borderline candidate for the HOF). How far behind these guys he ranked is subjective. Lollar's best seasons were from 1955-59; he was an All-Star four of those five years, and the Chisox were contenders every year, finishing 3rd four times, and winning the AL pennant in 1959.

Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

The best catcher in baseball during Lollar's tenure was, arguably, the best catcher of all time, in Yogi Berra. The second best catcher, and a guy who may have hit a higher peak than Berra (although he was less consistent from year to year) was Roy Campanella. That would make it hard to for Lollar to be the best catcher in baseball, or even in his league.

Yet Lollar MIGHT have been the best catcher in baseball for a two-year period, 1958-59. Campy was out of baseball due to his paralyzing injury after 1957. Berra had a superficially better season in 1958, but he caught only 88 games (Lollar caught 116). Berra had what appears to have been a slightly better season in 1959 with the bat, but that has to be balanced against Berra's park advantage (a LH hitter in Yankee Stadium vs. a RH hitter in Old Comiskey Park). 1959 was Lollar's best year, no question, and it was also the year the Chisox won the pennant. So, yes, it is possible that for a two year period, Sherm Lollar was the best catcher in baseball.

Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Lollar's greatest season coincided with the Chisox winning the pennant. I believe that without Lollar behind the plate, the Chisox would not have won the 1959 pennant.

Lollar had his best years with contending teams. It should be noted, however, that the Chisox consistently finished under their Pythagorean W-L records in the 1950s. I tend to view some of that as the result of leading off Luis Aparicio, a speedy hacker with a poor OBP. (Lollar would have been a better choice; he was slow, but had excellent plate discipline.)

Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Lollar contributed as a player through age 38. He was a #1 catcher through age 36, and was an active #2 behind Cam Carreon at age 37. He retired at age 38, but it is possible that he could still have contributed in a backup role for a couple of extra years, even at his advanced age.

Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Of course not.

Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

No, they are not. Guys like Lollar need extreme outside-the-books advantages to make the HOF (unusual defensive prowess, unique role as a team leader).

Do the player’s numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Lollar meets 29.6 of 100 HOF standards; he'd be near the bottom of the HOF on that score. He's ahead of some famous names (Pee Wee Reese, Joe Tinker), but many view those selections as mistakes.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Lollar was considered an excellent defensive catcher, an intelligent player, and a top handler of pitchers. The running game was not a big factor in his time, for the most part (his team did more running than much of the AL) and some say his handling of pitchers was a park illusion. Still, Lollar was able to catch a long time, and this gives creedence to his defensive credentials. He won Gold Gloves the first three years the awards were instituted; the first one being one for the entire major leagues. Lollar was probably the best defensive catcher during the second half of the 1950s, and Jim Hegan's competition for the best defensive catcher during the 1st half of the 1950s.

Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No, he's not. Where he ranks amongst catchers outside the HOF depends on whether or not you want to make park adjustments, and how much value you assign to Lollar's defense.

How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Lollar never had an MVP-type season. In his best season, 1959, he finished 9th in the MVP balloting. His teammate, Nellie Fox, won the award, and deserved it. Luis Aparicio, however, finished second. He did NOT, in my opinion, deserve to finish that high. Aparicio was overrated, due to his base stealing, and was NOT as valuable a player as Lollar was until after 1959.

How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Lollar played in seven (7) All-Star games. This is a decent number for a HOFer. His selections came from being the second best catcher in the league, and there were years in the fifties when Jim Hegan and his miniscule BA (but hefty defense) were chosen over Lollar. Still, his raw numbers and overall credentials during his All-Star years are not outlandish, especially for a catcher.

If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Probably not. When Lollar was the best player on his team, he was on the worst team in baseball. It is possible that if the Lollar of 1958-59 were the best player on your team, that team would at least contend.

What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not that I know of.

Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider.

Yes.

Sherm Lollar has a better HOF case than Ray Schalk and Rick Ferrell. Beyond that, one would have to ascribe a LOT of defensive value to him for him to be a HOFer.

Cougar
03-03-2007, 07:18 PM
Solid analysis. Lollar isn't one of the ten best eligible catchers who's not in the HOF, but he's probably somewhere around number eleven or twelve. That won't get him in, but it's worthy of note.

Skin & Bones
03-03-2007, 08:18 PM
I wouldn't put him in, but he's certainly more deserving than Ray Schalk.

Calif_Eagle
03-03-2007, 11:56 PM
I would like to say that I was impressed by the straight forward way in which Fuzzy Bear worked through the Keltner List, giving candid and real answers to all the questions. So often, when someone suggests a player for the HOF, even as a possibility, the lengths they go to to advance & defend their position border on the ridiculous. Sherm Lollar is a solid suggestion at least, seeing as how the catching crop in the HOF is regarded as weak by many (Schalk, Ferrell, some dont like Bresnahan). He (Lollar) sure wouldnt be the worst ever choice for the Hall. (although with Morgan Bulkeley in there, almost no one else ever would be). I'd like to see Bill Freehan get some consideration one day as well.

Fuzzy Bear
03-04-2007, 06:01 AM
I'd like to see Bill Freehan get some consideration one day as well.

Freehan is in competition with Ted Simmons, Lance Parrish, and Joe Torre for being the best catcher eligible for the HOF but not in.

Freehan is the player most similar to Lollar; each is the other's 3rd most comparable batter. Freehan was probably the better hitter; he hit more HRs and had more power in an era less desirable for hitters. Freehan's peak was higher; one can make a good case that he, and not Denny McLain, deserved the 1968 AL MVP award. On the other hand, Freehan came up to the big leagues at age 21, and there was a job waiting for him. Lollar got a cup of coffee at age 22 with Cleveland, but he was not going to displace Jim Hegan (possibly the greatest defensive catcher of all time). Then he was traded to the Yankees, where he languished for two years; his competition for the job was Yogi Berra. Guess who won? He was 24 before he became a semi-regular, due to reasons not of his making. Still, Freehan deserves the edge here; he retired at a time where he still had a little left in the tank. Lollar and Freehan are comparable, but Freehan rates the edge.

THE OX
03-04-2007, 06:53 AM
Well, if Lollar should be considered (and he was a fine player), let me propose one of his contemporaries who was also a decent hitter with power and an excellent catcher:

Can you say Del Crandall ?

He even had a post-playing days career as a manager!

Cougar
03-04-2007, 09:26 AM
Ox is correct...Crandall is the best comparison to Lollar. I think, in terms of value, they are virtually even.

Lollar and Crandall are both largely forgotten today, and were overshadowed in his time by Berra and Campanella, two of the best half dozen or so catchers ever.

But, they were both top fielders, hit for power, and were team leaders. Lollar walked more; Crandall had a little more pop. Crandall lost two years of his career for military service in Korea, which depresses his overall record. Lollar was blocked for a couple years in the Yankee system by Berra, and before that by Hegan in Cleveland, which depresses his.

Fuzzy Bear
03-04-2007, 10:50 AM
I didn't think about Del Crandall, but he's the second best comp for Lollar, and Lollar is the second best comp for Crandall.

The case for Crandall is very similar to the case for Lollar. Crandall was the best catcher in the NL for 3 years (1958-60) at that same time that Lollar was the best catcher in the AL.

I didn't think of Crandall when I made the comment that Lollar was, quite possibly, the best catcher in baseball in 1958-59. They had very similar seasons, but I'm going to stick with Lollar over Crandall for the two year period of 1958-59. One can argue that Crandall was better, but my preference for Lollar is based on (A) Lollar's overall offensive numbers being slightly better than Crandall's those years, and (B) Lollar played in a slightly more difficult park (although Crandall's splits those years show a player performing much better on the road). It's really close between the two.

DoubleX
03-04-2007, 12:00 PM
I agree that both Lollar and Crandall have been too overlooked, as well as two more of their contemporaries, Smokey Burgess and Walker Cooper, but I don't believe any of them belong in the Hall. They were all good catcher who don't seem to get as much mention as they deserve, and perhaps all in the top 30-35 all time, but that's a good measure outside of the Hall, IMO.

Calif_Eagle
03-04-2007, 12:06 PM
.... Lollar got a cup of coffee at age 22 with Cleveland, but he was not going to displace Jim Hegan (possibly the greatest defensive catcher of all time)....
This brings up a point, shouldnt being the greatest defensive player in baseball history at a given position, be credential enough for a HOF berth? I know a man like Jim Hegan is never going to get in based on his work with the stick, but if the above can be shown to be true, it would seem to me it would qualify Hegan. After all, 130 + years of professional baseball have passed. If you are the best defensively over that time, better than *anyone* else, thats quite an accomplishment. (Im sure some will dispute Hegan as being the B.D.C. Of All Time also.) It seems an all defense team would have to be a pretty solid team. If you were to assemble an all *offensive* team by position I would think most of it (Wes Ferrell P being a notable exception, & of course counting Babe Ruth as an outfielder.) would already be in the HOF. What does anyone think? Should the best defensive player at each field position be in the Hall? (Not trying to hijack the Lollar thread, if a mod feels this should be a new thread, thats perfectly fine with me. )

Fuzzy Bear
03-04-2007, 01:47 PM
This brings up a point, shouldnt being the greatest defensive player in baseball history at a given position, be credential enough for a HOF berth? I know a man like Jim Hegan is never going to get in based on his work with the stick, but if the above can be shown to be true, it would seem to me it would qualify Hegan. After all, 130 + years of professional baseball have passed. If you are the best defensively over that time, better than *anyone* else, thats quite an accomplishment. (Im sure some will dispute Hegan as being the B.D.C. Of All Time also.) It seems an all defense team would have to be a pretty solid team. If you were to assemble an all *offensive* team by position I would think most of it (Wes Ferrell P being a notable exception, & of course counting Babe Ruth as an outfielder.) would already be in the HOF. What does anyone think? Should the best defensive player at each field position be in the Hall? (Not trying to hijack the Lollar thread, if a mod feels this should be a new thread, thats perfectly fine with me. )

I'm going to start a thread on this.

Fuzzy Bear
03-04-2007, 02:04 PM
I agree that both Lollar and Crandall have been too overlooked, as well as two more of their contemporaries, Smokey Burgess and Walker Cooper, but I don't believe any of them belong in the Hall. They were all good catcher who don't seem to get as much mention as they deserve, and perhaps all in the top 30-35 all time, but that's a good measure outside of the Hall, IMO.

Cooper was not an exact contemporary for Lollar or Crandall; he was the second best catcher in the NL before Crandall. He was the best in the NL during WWII, but that has to be discounted a bit. He had a higher peak, but a shorter career than Crandall or Lollar.

Burgess' offensive totals are a bit misleading; he was a platoon player who only once had over 400 ABs. His stats against lefties are good enough that it begs the question as to why he never took the whole job. Burgess, as a rule, hit 50 points lower against lefties, and was fat, so I suspect that his teams were either trying to platoon with a RH bat, or attempting to establish a glove-stick platoon. His career was pretty much that of a platoon player, much more so than Crandall or Lollar, and, consequently, he needs to be rated lower than they.

Cougar
03-04-2007, 06:23 PM
I agree that both Lollar and Crandall have been too overlooked, as well as two more of their contemporaries, Smokey Burgess and Walker Cooper, but I don't believe any of them belong in the Hall. They were all good catcher who don't seem to get as much mention as they deserve, and perhaps all in the top 30-35 all time, but that's a good measure outside of the Hall, IMO.

I don't think anyone said they did.

It's a useful exercise (and a fun one) to determine where the HOF line is. I think there's a consensus here that it's north of Lollar and Crandall, but not very far north.

Hence, when DoubleX mentions Smokey Burgess: He's not as good as {Lollar, Crandall}, so QED he doesn't have a compelling case.

Fuzzy Bear
08-15-2007, 12:50 PM
I think it's fair to say that the case for Lollar and Crandall is almost exactly the same.

I believe that both of these guys, in the final analysis, are below the borderline. However, I think they are both ahead of Wally Schang, a guy who has gotten some love here. They were far superior on defense to Schang, and they were true full-timers (as was Ray Schalk, who I also rate ahead of Schang). I don't see how you can justify Schang's selection if he isn't up to the standards of Lollar and Crandall.

538280
08-15-2007, 01:01 PM
I think it's fair to say that the case for Lollar and Crandall is almost exactly the same.

I believe that both of these guys, in the final analysis, are below the borderline. However, I think they are both ahead of Wally Schang, a guy who has gotten some love here. They were far superior on defense to Schang, and they were true full-timers (as was Ray Schalk, who I also rate ahead of Schang). I don't see how you can justify Schang's selection if he isn't up to the standards of Lollar and Crandall.

Schang had basically the same length career as Lollar and longer than Crandall and was clearly a better hitter than both of them. He had the same length career despite playing earlier when catchers weren't expected to catch as many games due to not as developed equipment. In Schang's era it was considered a big accomplishment to catch 100 games. Crandall and Lollar were essentially right at the league average as hitters, Crandall has a 96 OPS+ and Lollar 104. Schang is at 117. Defensively I would agree Crandall was a lot better though I had never heard that Lollar was a particularly great defensive catcher, I always thought he was more just good. His rate of SBs allowed per inning is almost exactly average: 1% above. Schang is probably around average. He's 2% above league average in opposition SBs. Either way, I still think his offense more than overcomes the defensive differences-and I don't even particularly like Schang for the HOF. Lollar and Crandall IMO aren't really much of candidates at all.

KCGHOST
08-15-2007, 01:45 PM
I just can't see much reason for advancing Lollar's candidacy. Functioning at the level of Del Crandall and Elston Howard is not enough to sound the clarion call to me.

Fuzzy Bear
08-17-2007, 06:44 PM
I just can't see much reason for advancing Lollar's candidacy. Functioning at the level of Del Crandall and Elston Howard is not enough to sound the clarion call to me.

The case for Howard is much different than the case for Crandall and Lollar.

Howard was a truly great catcher trapped by both racism and Yogi Berra ahead of him. I'm on the fence with him as a peak value selection for the HOF, but he was truly great at his peak, he got a late start through no fault of his own, and he retained his ability through age 39. (Howard's 1968 seaon looks like a downer, but he hit 11 points above league average.) Had Howard been given a regular catching job at age 23, he'd be in the HOF right now.

Fuzzy Bear
02-24-2008, 05:03 AM
Well, if Lollar should be considered (and he was a fine player), let me propose one of his contemporaries who was also a decent hitter with power and an excellent catcher:

Can you say Del Crandall ?

He even had a post-playing days career as a manager!


I'm going to give Lollar the edge here.

Lollar's career Offensive Winning Percentage was .536, while Crandall's was only .447. That's a BIG difference for two guys with superficially similar batting stats who were both top defensive catchers. Indeed, the skill bases of the two players are so much alike, and they were both contemporaries, so I really view the difference in OWP as a clear verdict on who was better.

leecemark
02-24-2008, 07:04 AM
--Somehow I always thought of Lollar as a short career guy. I was actually about to say that Crandell had the advatage of longevity, but decided to check my facts before posting - and saved myself some embarassment. Lollar caught over 1500 games - about 100 more than Crandell. Crandell was a great defensive catcher, while Lollar was (so far as I know) only a good one, but the offensive edge for Lollar pretty much has to carry the day. Not that topping Crandell makes him a Hall of famer, but his case is better than I originally thought.

Cougar
02-24-2008, 10:20 AM
For the record, Crandall lost time serving in the Korean War; hence, I'd be reluctant to debit him too badly for catching 100 games less than Lollar.

Paul Wendt
02-24-2008, 03:05 PM
The case for Crandall is very similar to the case for Lollar. Crandall was the best catcher in the NL for 3 years (1958-60) at that same time that Lollar was the best catcher in the AL.

I didn't think of Crandall when I made the comment that Lollar was, quite possibly, the best catcher in baseball in 1958-59. They had very similar seasons, but I'm going to stick with Lollar over Crandall for the two year period of 1958-59.

Did the Yankees stick too long with Yogi Berra as first or share catcher?
Does Lollar have a "best in baseball" case only because the Yankees shared the position more?

Fuzzy Bear
02-24-2008, 07:33 PM
For the record, Crandall lost time serving in the Korean War; hence, I'd be reluctant to debit him too badly for catching 100 games less than Lollar.

This is true; however, Crandall was not a well-established regular before he went to war.

Fuzzy Bear
02-24-2008, 07:50 PM
Did the Yankees stick too long with Yogi Berra as first or share catcher?
Does Lollar have a "best in baseball" case only because the Yankees shared the position more?

The Yankees had an All-Star caliber catcher in Elston Howard backing Berra up. Howard was a star; they had to find a way to get him into the lineup.

Berra was pushing 1,400 games at catcher for his career at the beginning of the 1958 season. At the time, the record for games caught was at 1,918 games by Al Lopez, and many of those games at the end were either substitutions or games where Lopez, himself was pulled. He was certainly at the point where a manager would begin to think how to keep Berra hitting without wearing him down at catcher.

Lollar was clearly better than Berra in 1958. I've revisited the 1959 season. An argument for Lollar can certainly be made; he caught more games, but not as many more games than Berra in 1959 (Lollar played 24 games at 1B in 1959, one of the few seasons where he played at a position other than catcher). An argument that Berra was better in 1959 can be made as well. I consider Lollar to have been the better catcher over the two year period, but part of that comes from playing more games. (Lollar was certainly not better than Berra while Berra was in his prime.) It's an argument that's not really a HOF argument, but Lollar is an underrated player, and a forgotten player. I don't particularly want to see him in the HOF, but he was a minor star and deserves to be remembered more than he is.

At the time of his retirement, Lollar was, IMO, the best White Sox catcher ever, better than Schalk, a HOFer, IMO. I consider Lollar's edge on offense to outweigh Schalk's POSSIBLE edge on defense. Lollar was considered the best defensive catcher in all of baseball in 1957, and as he also won the Gold Glove in 1958 and 1959, he was, at the least, the best defensive catcher in the AL. This is not an "if Schalk than Lollar" argument, but it is an attempt to place Lollar accurately in the history of the White Sox and of the AL.

Cowtipper
05-26-2009, 09:46 AM
Lollar was considerably better than Gus Triandos. He was an All-Star in seven seasons compared to Triandos' three; he won three Gold Gloves compared to Triandos' zero; Lollar had a better eye at the plate, a better batting average, better OPS - however, his OPS+ was only one point higher than Triandos', which is interesting.

Fuzzy Bear
10-11-2009, 08:36 PM
Lollar's case is pretty much the same as Del Crandall's, for whom a thread has arisen.

Cougar
10-12-2009, 09:54 AM
Elston Howard's being compared to Lollar and Crandall.

Without wanting to slight the other guys, they had nothing remotely close to Howard's peak in the early 60's. Not in the same area code. Howard won an MVP; the others never came close.

Peak matters. Howard is a full tier above Lollar and Crandall. At least.