Joe Morgan is way too full of himself

[Lindseynelson]

Lil Joe parlayed 5 brillliant years surrounded by 16 mediocre years into the Veterans spokesman.
5 years of hitting between Rose, Bench,Perez and Foster are the only reason he has that scary 271 lifetime average yet he is the final spokesperson on Santo ,Hodges etc and is outraged that the Vet committee is being questioned.
I guess arrogance is a prerequisite and thus quiet ,solid, performers get the shaft

[AlecBoy006]

They should be questioned! How could you leave off Ron Santo and Dick Allen and Tony Oliva- I know I've run into some on here opposing his election, but I would put him in. And, as I said yesterday- Grich and Face aren't in, and both should be in.

If you ask me, Morgan had only two phoenomenal seasons, plus other good seasons.

[futurehalloffamer]

But does anyone object to his being in the Hall of Fame?

[SamtheBravesFan]

But does anyone object to his being in the Hall of Fame?

Joe Morgan is a Hall of Famer. I just don't like Joe Morgan, broadcaster and analyst.

[rockin500]

Joe Morgan is a Hall of Famer. I just don't like Joe Morgan, broadcaster and analyst.
he's got a hall of fame ego, thats for sure.

[dgarza]

Lil Joe parlayed 5 brillliant years surrounded by 16 mediocre years into the Veterans spokesman.
5 years of hitting between Rose, Bench,Perez and Foster are the only reason he has that scary 271 lifetime average yet he is the final spokesperson on Santo ,Hodges etc and is outraged that the Vet committee is being questioned.
I guess arrogance is a prerequisite and thus quiet ,solid, performers get the shaft
Can you put this into context? I have no idea what this is about and you're not spelling it out to me.

[AlecBoy006]

I'd put Morgan in the hall of fame, but is highly overrated in my opinion.

[plask_stirlac]

Lil Joe parlayed 5 brillliant years surrounded by 16 mediocre years into the Veterans spokesman.
5 years of hitting between Rose, Bench,Perez and Foster are the only reason he has that scary 271 lifetime average yet he is the final spokesperson on Santo ,Hodges etc and is outraged that the Vet committee is being questioned.
I guess arrogance is a prerequisite and thus quiet ,solid, performers get the shaft

He did more for those great Reds teams than any one of those players, definitely.

And your very criteria makes him look better, even if hits are the key to scoring runs an winning games
Foster .274 average, OF
Perez .279 average, 3B/1B

Why is .271 scary for the low-offense position of 2B? He's not far from the power positions. Morgan played great defense, and his offensive package was everything that leads to runs, with or without batting average.



Now for his opinion, I don't know enough about many former players to judge him against. I would much rather have Peter Gammons or Tim Kurkjian chairing the VC (though Gammons is supposed to be Commisioner, heh). It's a shame Morgan drew walks and had a complete game, enough power and BA to do damage but not niched into either, but he's hard on advanced analysis... in the end Santo can't get in. Boo-urns!

[Los Bravos]

Knowing how Joe is thought of around here, I had a pretty good idea that this wouldn't go over well with the board.

He's a definite Hall of Famer, but he's hardly Aaron or Frank Robinson. He's a bit of a borderline candidate in some people's minds, so I found it odd and ironic to have him get all huffy over this, especially when worthy candidates like Santo, Kaat, Doug Harvey (I despise all Umpires and even I think he's a no doubter) and Walter O'Malley are given the shaft.

Maybe there was too much cronyism before, but I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

[plask_stirlac]

He's a bit of a borderline candidate in some people's minds,

To each his own but that's too bad for them... if winning is the objective, and each game is played in its era, then we need to adjust for that or we're off on who helped win games the most. Low raw numbers shouldn't be a disqualifier, nor should higher raw numbers. Joe doesn't actually need help, 800 XBH with 268 HR and 689 SB, .392 OBP should be enough and that's quick examination.

[Los Bravos]

I agree, but there is a contingent of people around here who don't think much of him. That's all I was referring to.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Morgan does serve on the HOF's board of directors, or whatever it is, so if any player is going to talk about the HOF voting process, it is him. It's not because he's full of himself. It is very much his place to comment.

[abacab]

What are you all talking about? What did Morgan say that got everyone so annoyed?

Morgan supports Santo for the Hall, so you can't attack him for that.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If you've watched him on ESPN (in the booth) you would know this by now.

[KCGHOST]

He is one of the three greatest 2B's ever so it's hard to say he's overrated, unless you are talking about his understanding of the how games are really won. His attitude of not wanting to lower the standards of the HoF would be admirable if he knew what those standards are.

[Paul McCartney]

Lil Joe parlayed 5 brillliant years surrounded by 16 mediocre years into the Veterans spokesman.
5 years of hitting between Rose, Bench,Perez and Foster are the only reason he has that scary 271 lifetime
If you look around the site, you'll notice Little Joe is considered as good as a top-25 all-time position player by many, so your statements about his performance are in a minority. As for the part about Morgan speaking about the Hall of Fame vote, I never got the news about that, could anybody provide a link to the story?

[ChrisLDuncan]

He is one of the three greatest 2B's ever so it's hard to say he's overrated, unless you are talking about his understanding of the how games are really won. His attitude of not wanting to lower the standards of the HoF would be admirable if he knew what those standards are.


One of five.

[Los Bravos]

Judge for yourself...

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/16799510.htm

[Lindseynelson]

He did more for those great Reds teams than any one of those players, definitely.

And your very criteria makes him look better, even if hits are the key to scoring runs an winning games
Foster .274 average, OF
Perez .279 average, 3B/1B

Why is .271 scary for the low-offense position of 2B? He's not far from the power positions. Morgan played great defense, and his offensive package was everything that leads to runs, with or without batting average.



Now for his opinion, I don't know enough about many former players to judge him against. I would much rather have Peter Gammons or Tim Kurkjian chairing the VC (though Gammons is supposed to be Commisioner, heh). It's a shame Morgan drew walks and had a complete game, enough power and BA to do damage but not niched into either, but he's hard on advanced analysis... in the end Santo can't get in. Boo-urns!Morgan played great defense?
Yes sir so did Larry Bowa.
It's easy to have a swell percentage when you play on green concrete and can't get to anything hit hard

[abacab]

Judge for yourself...

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/16799510.htm

So Morgan doesn't agree with the VC results, but he doesn't want outsiders bashing the group because they don't like the results. I think that's fair. I don't understand what the Morgan bashing is all about, and I really don't understand what his playing career has anything to do with this.

[Los Bravos]

Actually, the reaction I described initially came from me hearing just the simple sentence "Do we lower our standards?" reported, which sounded a lot worse than it reads in the full context of his remarks. Finding out that he voted for as many people as he did allays most any concern I had about him, personally.

Again, I reiterate, that I liked Joe as a player, a lot, and I definitely feel he's a HOFer. I just know that he's not held in great esteem by a segment of this board. Nothing more.

[yanks0714]

So Morgan doesn't agree with the VC results, but he doesn't want outsiders bashing the group because they don't like the results. I think that's fair. I don't understand what the Morgan bashing is all about, and I really don't understand what his playing career has anything to do with this.

Joe is a bit over-rated by some but he is clearly in the top 5 2B of all time and a slam dunk HOF'er.

I think what a lot of people don't like about him now as a broadcaster is that he has his opinions and is not reluctant to express them. Some of his opinions are controversial to a segment of fans if they don't agree with him. He expresses those opinions with a great deal of confidence. This strikes fans as outspoken. But, ya know what? That is one of the things he is getting paid to do these days.

[AlecBoy006]

I'd put Joe at #5 amongst second baseman.

[Appling]

Joe Morgan is a Hall of Famer. I just don't like Joe Morgan, broadcaster and analyst.
I DO like Joe Morgan, color broadcaster. I believe he knows what he is talking about. I even like his radio voice.

I'm not sure Joe is the last word on who should be in Cooperstown, but as a player he certainly belongs.

[JRJohnson6]

So what should Joe Morgan do? He IS on the committee, so don't you think he should comment on the votes? I think Joe Morgan hit the nail straight on the head when he asked why everyone is coming down on the veteran's committee when the writers didn't vote these guys in either. I think we forget, its the HALL OF FAME, not the Hall of Very Good. Joe Morgan is great at what he does, whether it be announcing or voting for who should be in the Hall. I would actually go as far as saying there shoulnd't be a Veteran's Committe at all. If the player can't get in the first couple of votes after he is eligable, then the player shouldn't be in at all. The HOF vote from the veteran's committe is just a popularity contest. We forget over time that these guys were just very good players, not HOF players. As soon as we start letting these mediocre guys in, the age old argument of "well, this guy's in so this other guy should be in to" starts. This is where we have the problem. I say disband the Veteran's Committee!!!!

[SamtheBravesFan]

I DO like Joe Morgan, color broadcaster. I believe he knows what he is talking about. I even like his radio voice.

Morgan grates on me. Sometimes I think he analyzes too much and it gets annoying. I guess it has gotten to the point where I hear Joe Morgan's voice and *MUTE BUTTON*. Call it illogical, but I just can't stand Morgan on TV.

[jalbright]

This forum is not meant to discuss Joe Morgan the broadcaster. If you want to talk about his comments or votes on the HOF or his worthiness as a player, you are welcome to do so here. There are other forums where a discussion of his qualities as a broadcaster are appropriate. Any further discussion of his broadcasting in this thread will be edited out. Repeated violations by the same individuals may merit more severe discipline.

Jim Albright

[SamtheBravesFan]

All right. Sorry about that.

[yankillaz]

Whar are we arguing here?

Morgan's HOF worthiness? Or the fact that he has a say on the HOF VC?

Don't get it...:noidea

[Captain Cold Nose]

Whar are we arguing here?

Morgan's HOF worthiness? Or the fact that he has a say on the HOF VC?

Don't get it...:noidea
I think the thread starter has an issue with Morgan speaking out on the topic at all. Part of that has to do with Morgan's HOF worthiness, which the thread starter doesn't seem to think is there. But Morgan is, in his role on the HOF board as well as a voting member of the VC, well-qualified to comment on the VC election, as well as being well-qualified as an HOF'er. Most have him top 5 as a Second Baseman, all-time, at least.

So, I guess it's both.

[Appling]

Morgan is at least as qualified as Frankie Frisch, another HOF second baseman, who also had a big input into VC selections.

[bluezebra]

Knowing how Joe is thought of around here, I had a pretty good idea that this wouldn't go over well with the board.

He's a definite Hall of Famer, but he's hardly Aaron or Frank Robinson. He's a bit of a borderline candidate in some people's minds, so I found it odd and ironic to have him get all huffy over this, especially when worthy candidates like Santo, Kaat, Doug Harvey (I despise all Umpires and even I think he's a no doubter) and Walter O'Malley are given the shaft.

Maybe there was too much cronyism before, but I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

"I despise all Umpires..."

Why? Or do you despise ALL authority figures?

Bob

[bluezebra]

Morgan is at least as qualified as Frankie Frisch, another HOF second baseman, who also had a big input into VC selections.

Frisch had a career .316 BA, 13 seasons .300+, 11 consecutive seasons .300+.

What input did Frisch have in VC voting? He died in 1973?

Bob

[Westlake]

Frisch had a career .316 BA, 13 seasons .300+, 11 consecutive seasons .300+.

What input did Frisch have in VC voting? He died in 1973?

Bob

The entire league's batting average was .292 in Frisch's time. He still hit for better average than Morgan.. but hitting .300 in the 20s and 30s was not that big of a deal.

A number of years after Frisch left the playing field as a manager, he became a member of the Hall of Fame's Committee on Baseball Veterans, which is responsible for electing players to the Hall of Fame who may have been overlooked initial balloting by the Baseball Writers; he later became chairman of this powerful committee. In the years just prior to his death, a number of Frisch's Giants and Cardinals teammates were elected to the Hall; some notable writers, chiefly among them Bill James, have criticized these selections - including Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Rube Marquard, Ross Youngs and George Kelly - which include some of the most widely questioned honorees in the Hall's history.

[Appling]

"I despise all Umpires..."

Why? Or do you despise ALL authority figures?

Bob
I personally admire persons with the courage to become an umpire. Someone has to do it.

Nonetheless, I never did understand what makes a HOF umpire stand out above the rest. Is it that he is more flamboyant? Or Controversial? More assertive?
Or is the HOF just "always right"?

[Appling]

Actually, I think of Frankie and Joe as very similar.
Both good hitters, good fielders, and excellant base runners.

Frisch has a better career BA (.316 vs .271 for Morgan) but as stated above, Frisch hit in a hitter's era. Joe had better career OBP (.392 versus .369 for Frankie) and Joe had four consecutive years with SA above .490 (including OBP of .576 in 1976!) Frisch career best OBP was .407 in 1930.

Each was voted league MVP: FF in 1931, JM in 1975 and 1976.

[steelcurtain76]

They should be questioned! How could you leave off Ron Santo and Dick Allen and Tony Oliva- I know I've run into some on here opposing his election, but I would put him in. And, as I said yesterday- Grich and Face aren't in, and both should be in.

If you ask me, Morgan had only two phoenomenal seasons, plus other good seasons.

Dick Allen has no business being in the Hall Of Fame other than by paying his own admission.