Another try at discussion

[jbooth]

OK, I obviously failed in the last attempt, so I'll try again.

I'm trying to be as OBJECTIVE and open-minded as possible and create a visual aid that shows hand/elbow/forearm action, instead of arguing over the limited things we can see looking at an MLB game swing.

In the video link below I've tried to show a couple of different ways that the bat can be moved. Please, just focus on what the extra protruding parts of the demo stick are doing and leave the nit-picking out. It is an attempt to demo a PART of the swing. I'm trying to demo what I THINK TwinEngine believes happens vs what the rest of the world believes.

I have gone on record in the past saying that the hands DO indeed do more than just go for a ride, and that a "running start" IS helpful. BUT, I don't believe it is executed bio-mechanically in the manner that TwinEngine believes. And, I don't believe ANYTHING TwinEngine says about the shoulder action, or the hand path.

OK, be objective and don't analyze my swing, study and analyze the way my arms and hands are making the stick move in two or three different ways, and see if either, or neither is what you think happens.

Each is about 4.6 meg;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/boxswivel1.mpg

http://firstpickclub.com/video/boxswivel2.mpg

[Jake Patterson]

Jim I keep getting a plug-in error. My problem... What are you using? Quicktime?

[jbooth]

Jim I keep getting a plug-in error. My problem... What are you using? Quicktime?

It's an .mpg file. You should be able to view it with QuickTime or WindowsMedia player or just about any video player. It sounds like you need to check some settings in you browser or update something. It downloads and plays for me with QT or WindowsMedia.

I create it with Adobe Premiere Elements.

4x4 converted them to QuickTime MOV files. (Thanks 4x4)

here try these

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/boxswivel1.MOV

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/boxswivel2.MOV

[jbooth]

How do you think this guy makes the bat move? Based upon how the yellow lines move.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/morneau5.gif

[Drill]

How do you think this guy makes the bat move? Based upon how the yellow lines move.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/morneau5.gif


Since i am far from qualified and please correct me if i am wrong. It looks to me he has such good weight shift and rotating with his lower body around that wedge effect of the front leg that if you have your head and hands in the right position and not release early he could not help but hit it out of the park. He makes it look so ez. (grin)

i am a novice at this please correct me if I am wrong.


love,

drill

[Jake Patterson]

OK, be objective and don't analyze my swing, study and analyze the way my arms and hands are making the stick move in two or three different ways, and see if either, or neither is what you think happens.

The first piece of the clip where the secondary pipe does not stay parallel to the forearm there is a disconnection of the elbow from the shoulder. The swing where the secondary pipe stays parallel to the forearm the shoulders and elbow are turning as a unit and they turn on an axis that is perpendicular to the spine.

I would think the second swing with the pipe parallel to the forearm is more effective and can generate more power.

[jbooth]

The first piece of the clip where the secondary pipe does not stay parallel to the forearm there is a disconnection of the elbow from the shoulder. The swing where the secondary pipe stays parallel to the forearm the shoulders and elbow are turning as a unit and they turn on an axis that is perpendicular to the spine.

I would think the second swing with the pipe parallel to the forearm is more effective and can generate more power.

You are correct.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/boxswivel1.mpg

The first swing (in each view above) is what Second Engine Theory believers, think happens. The second swing is what actually happens.

Here is another clip with 3 swings, each from the side and front view. The first side/front is the "Second Engine" theory, and the second is how Bonds and Williams execute the "tip and rip", and the third is more like the PCR method.

Play it slowly and watch how the right-angle extensions on the bat, move, and notice the box that is on the bat, above my hands. Notice the yellow and red surfaces and how differently they move in comparing the "second engine" method, to the real method. Second engine says the bat is torqued back toward the catcher. Ted Williams and Bonds flatten it out pointing away from their back, and then turn it toward the catcher as the shoulders turn. The hands may torque the bat a little bit in order to flatten it and set it on plane, but they don't torque early to get the bathead moving at the ball. Any torqing happens after the bat gets parallel with the plate.

The difference between Bonds and PCR is simply that he gets a running start into the plane position that the PCR swing starts at. This DOES help to allow the hips to get going before the bat moves and it DOES help get some momentum into the bathead earlier, but it isn't done mechanically like the first swing in the video shows.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/democolorbox.mpg

[Encinitas]

I don't purport to be a second engine guru, but why do the demos show an unhinging, and dead hips (i.e. hands moving before hips)??? I suppose you could be exaggerating a bit to prove your point, but it should be more accurate.

[jbooth]

I don't purport to be a second engine guru, but why do the demos show an unhinging, and dead hips (i.e. hands moving before hips)??? I suppose you could be exaggerating a bit to prove your point, but it should be more accurate.

Don't look at the entire body, just the upper body, particularly the arms and hands. And, yes the very first side view is an exaggeration just showing the hand and arm movement that he proposes. The front view is more realistic.

[tom.guerry]

Jim -

Mankin says the bat is torqued between the hands.

Epstein agrees, but does not emphasize this in his teaching. He does emphasize related cues like elbow action/getting hands flat,winding rubber band,etc,

Nyman says torque does not exist prior to shoulder "turn".

He says he has disproved this early or "active" torque.

I agree with Mankin and Epstein.

The same sequence happens in overhand throw as Epstein for example demonstrates in comparing torque positions and how both throwers and swingers get there.

In the throwing case. the arms are apart, but the front arm/back arm action are the same as that which produces torque in the swing before the shoulders "turn".

Forearm action becomes much more involved in the swing with both hands on bat to enable the torquing. Hands are locus of control and forearms are closer to hands and take on heightened importance.

Finally, take some cuts yourself and I belive you will find that only by torquing the bat with arm/forearm action before the shoulders turn can you square up the ball and adjust late with good zone coverage by TILTING not turning the shoulders. This "bypasses shoulders so the swing feels like "hips and hands".

Do you believe the Player or the "scientist" ?

I'll go with the player on this one.

You should be able to feel this and see how it looks different on surface video.

You should see how it resembles a high level throw.

If you teach based on the assumption that torque is not happening and it is in the high level destination swing, then you are unlikely to facilitate trial and error prgress toward that particular desctination.

When you try harder and turn like heck, etc then you get even further from this goal.

Some details are important like whether you believe in hand applied torque or not. Better get that one right.

[swingbuster]

The difference between Bonds and PCR is simply that he gets a running start into the plane position that the PCR swing starts at. This DOES help to allow the hips to get going before the bat moves and it DOES help get some momentum into the bathead earlier, but it isn't done mechanically like the first swing in the video shows.

The BHUT ( counter rotation of the barrel) and transitioning out of plane gives the hips something to turn against before the barrel returns to plane releasing the stretch.

It is a lock and fire mechanism that utilizes stretch then release.

there is nothing like that in PCR.

Epstein release mechanics are correct. BHUT is the upper body resistance mechanic, THT and BHT happen after the Prelaunch TRIGGER of the hands lock the shoulder loading mechanism for an instant and release after the torso has been stretched

Don't mix the kool-aid in with what makes the PUNCH :clapping

[Mark H]

The BHUT ( counter rotation of the barrel) and transitioning out of plane gives the hips something to turn against before the barrel returns to plane releasing the stretch.

It is a lock and fire mechanism that utilizes stretch then release.

there is nothing like that in PCR.

Considering we have stipulated many times that your loading method is just peachy, though not foundational, perhaps you could avoid misrepresentations like this. After all, no one is offering honest criticism of the hbh. Given that, I would think avoiding misrerpresentative criticism of others would seem reasonable.





Epstein release mechanics are correct. BHUT is the upper body resistance mechanic, THT and BHT happen after the Prelaunch TRIGGER of the hands lock the shoulder loading mechanism for an instant and release after the torso has been stretched

Don't mix the kool-aid in with what makes the PUNCH :clapping

BHUT with the bat on the deltoid as Epstein recommends. Hmmm.

[swingbuster]

BHUT with the bat on the deltoid as Epstein recommends. Hmmm.

I do not personally like the deltoid position although I think I know why it is used to STOP the arm and hand swing until they forget that old mechanic.

The tipped hand set is superior in torque creation and as a starting hand set for teaching in my use

Please explain the PCR equivalent of what constitues the " release of the stretch" ;
" the point of build then GO! " that compares.

I have asked that before. If somebody can tell it and show it I will teach it and praise it. I have not seen it in any body of text or any swing so far.

So far silence.... Building reistance the right way is foundational and knowing how to release it is foundational

I just loaded 15 HBHs to ship so that has nothing to do with my question. The GO problem is what is missing when you use the HBH improperly as it builds the stretch fine but you need to know what FIRES the mechanism. Let people get it

[Mark H]

Tom,

I read your post but I wonder if you could more clearly frame your reply specifically to Jim's posts.

[Mark H]

.

I do not personally like the deltoid position although I think I know why it is used to STOP the arm and hand swing until they forget that old mechanic.

The tipped hand set is superior in torque creation and as a starting hand set for teaching in my use

Please explain the PCR equivalent of what constitues the " release of the stretch" ;
" the point of build then GO! " that compares.

I have asked that before. If somebody can tell it and show it I will teach it and praise it. I have not seen it in any body of text or any swing so far.

So far silence....

So you are OK with Epstein minimizing arm action as a teaching step? I've told you many times, that's the way to do it. Not necessarily exactly like that but... Some elite hitters show your loading pattern and some do not. Therefore it is not a universal but it is not a problem either. Adding that layer of complexity to a kid trying to unlearn a bunch of bad habits is a bad idea IME. Silence? I've told you myself many times that your way of loading is exhibited in many elite hitters yet you continue to act otherwise. Who's drinking whose kool aid there?

Leaving town and leaving you guys to the care of Jim. A fellow who understands reasonable but vigorous debate and who actually teaches hitters. A LOT of hitters. Adios.

[swingbuster]

OK...JIM ..they left you at the HELP window

Give it a shot.

Where is the stretch built up( the torque angle widened) and how is it released in he original Nyman Model?

This IS a reasonable question that sends them out of town every time I ask it.

[Mark H]

Haven't left yet but how about answer Jim's questions on this thread and starting your own thread on this other? Adios again.

[dougmac]

[QUOTE=Mark H]Considering we have stipulated many times that your loading method is just peachy, though not foundational, perhaps you could avoid misrepresentations like this.






When you say "your loading method", are you refering to the way Ruth, Williams, Aaron, Bonds, Allen, Oh, Bagwell, Guerrero etc. tipped the bat? If you are, then the foundation was set about 80 years ago.

[Eagle]

Don't look at the entire body, just the upper body, particularly the arms and hands. And, yes the very first side view is an exaggeration just showing the hand and arm movement that he proposes. The front view is more realistic.

In the Second Engine swing, the hands and forearms appear to be actively moving the bat. In the PCR swing, they seem to be very passive.

So, then what is role of the hands and forearms in the swing? In your opinion, do the hands do anything other than hold onto the bat? Forearms have any role at all? Do they do any work in conjunction with each other?

[ace.3]

How do you think this guy makes the bat move? Based upon how the yellow lines move.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/morneau5.gif


I am fairly new to this site and am by no means an expert on hitting but it looks to me like the action of Morneau's elbow in the beginning does not coincide with the action of his shoulders. Then would it make sense that this action is to keep the barrel back allowing for more "whip" at contact? After this initial movement it appears that the elbow and shoulders then act as one, rotating, to get to the level of the ball. Anyways, this is a great site.

Thanks

[tom.guerry]

Mark-

Looks like Jim hopped over here without finishing up in the other thread.

I was asking what else he disagrees with Epstein about besides the existence of "THT".

I'd like to get clear on that first.

If someone like you does not believe in "THT", that can be a big reason for the poor results you get trying Epstein, that and a lot of other cues that are incompatible with an MLB swing like "turn like heck", adjust by bend at waist, turn bat in shoulder plane,keep front foot closed, etc,etc, all making trial and error of the mlb harder,not easier. All forcing a spin swing with lack of segmentation, lack of early batspeed, lack of plane adjustment,etc, The many fatal flaws of the Nyman "science".

Shoulder turn is NOT what starts the bat turning.Torquing handle does in the mlb patern.

Rather than fault Epstein, I would take a look at what you teach and try to understand that you are preventing rather than promoting the path to the mlb pattern.

That may not be too harmful in fastpitch, but it's a killer in baseball. That's why we all just can't get along.

[Stealth]

Jbooth

I looked at your clips - this is what is interesting to me. Look at the clips from the rear, the first one you have the ability to hit the outside pitch (or inside for that matter). When the clip stops I can see your lead arm in the picture. You have also achieved the palm up palm down position in clip one.

The second clip has what appears to be what Richard would call a "hard left" with the lead arm, the position of the hands when the clip stops would not allow you to hit the outside pitch - middle in you would be ok. In the second clip I cannot see your lead arm when the clip stops. In addition it looks like you would need another frame to get to a palm up palm down position.

I am curious as to what you see?

[swingbuster]

Jim

I looked at the clips. I know you are an Epstein pupil or at least somebody that is well versed in teaching it if you wanted to


I ask again. Where in PCR doctrine , text or imagery, is the storage and release mechanism ?

I see you demo the Epstein elbows and tilt well. The lead elbow goes up and the rear slots.

I do not see the PCR doctrine get the lead elbow UP enough. I see the lead elbow dive left and the bat drag. I do not see a loading pattern that causes any segmentation of the body but more over if you CAN get resistance and some segmentaion in one plane, I for the life of me do not see a release mechanism.

I just see a hard turn and no stretch and fire

[jbooth]

Jim
I ask again. Where in PCR doctrine , text or imagery, is the storage and release mechanism ?

I do not see the PCR doctrine get the lead elbow UP enough. I see the lead elbow dive left and the bat drag. I do not see a loading pattern that causes any segmentation of the body but more over if you CAN get resistance and some segmentaion in one plane, I for the life of me do not see a release mechanism.

I just see a hard turn and no stretch and fire

You appear to be under the misconception that because I think Richard (TwinEngine) is clueless, that I refute him with PCR as being the correct alternative method. I have never been a PCR person. I got kicked off Nyman's site for disagreeing with him 3 years ago. I have always had my own beliefs based upon what I have learned about the swing from several instructors, (Epstein being the most influential), and what I have concluded own my own. I don't totally agree with PCR, nor totally disagree, and I don't totally disagree with the fact that a running start (tip and rip) helps, and that the hands do get involved in the swing. I simply disagree with how Richard thinks it gets done. And I totally disagree with his "new" other stuff that he came up with that is nonsense. Such as; hands away from the body, and no CHP.

I posted the video as a point of discussion, not to favor one or the other, although I think the middle swing, which was intended to be a replica of how I believe Bonds and Williams swing, is the best one. They don't have to be perfect replicas to make a point and show the differences.

[Stealth]

Jbooth - another question? What is wrong with the hands away from the body?

[Mark H]

[QUOTE=Mark H]Considering we have stipulated many times that your loading method is just peachy, though not foundational, perhaps you could avoid misrepresentations like this.






When you say "your loading method", are you refering to the way Ruth, Williams, Aaron, Bonds, Allen, Oh, Bagwell, Guerrero etc. tipped the bat? If you are, then the foundation was set about 80 years ago.

Well that's not really what I'm discussing but ok fine.

[Mark H]

Mark-

Looks like Jim hopped over here without finishing up in the other thread.

I was asking what else he disagrees with Epstein about besides the existence of "THT".

I'd like to get clear on that first.

If someone like you does not believe in "THT", that can be a big reason for the poor results you get trying Epstein, that and a lot of other cues that are incompatible with an MLB swing like "turn like heck", adjust by bend at waist, turn bat in shoulder plane,keep front foot closed, etc,etc, all making trial and error of the mlb harder,not easier. All forcing a spin swing with lack of segmentation, lack of early batspeed, lack of plane adjustment,etc, The many fatal flaws of the Nyman "science".

Shoulder turn is NOT what starts the bat turning.Torquing handle does in the mlb patern.

Rather than fault Epstein, I would take a look at what you teach and try to understand that you are preventing rather than promoting the path to the mlb pattern.

That may not be too harmful in fastpitch, but it's a killer in baseball. That's why we all just can't get along.

Epstein? THT? You mean Mankin?

[steve R]

Hi Swingbuster,

I have always found you to be a fair man. Not hung up on an ego trip like some people on these hitting websites. Personal I find your hbh a great tool when you understand rotational mechanics. As far as I can see Jack kicked no one off his site. I did not learn rotational from Jack but when some people keep coming back over and over again with linear concepts and do not want to see that is fine. Jack said they would just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks

Steve:dance :dance

[swingbuster]

posted the video as a point of discussion, not to favor one or the other, although I think the middle swing, which was intended to be a replica of how I believe Bonds and Williams swing, is the best one. They don't have to be perfect replicas to make a point and show the differences.

Thanks Jim,

Your reply was a good one. I do not take this stuff personal even when Mark and I go back and forth. I search for what works. I personally do not teach getting the hands away from the body. I see it working for some (SOSA) but usually by making them come back closer at the cusp. It can be an add on resistance move.

Like a two plane swing in golf these guys are starting in the second plane and it makes them go outside/ in and slot the elbow.

ALL rear elbows must slot to give the lever to the lead arm to be rotational.

I think Epstein nailed it when he showed how the lead arm must work up to form a diamond ( on the frontal view; as you did) to allow the rear to slot. You cannot separate those actions and release the barrel. When you do not allow or teach the lead elbow up then you force the rear elbow to extend and you push around / round off/ circle/ wrap/ hit the outside seam/ the ball.

I see that off my inside seam drill work.

So when I ask where is the stretch and what is the fire mechanism, I would be consoled to think the one plane scap load is a stretch albeit a weak one but I have never heard anybody show the FIRE mechanism and that is because NYman thought the barrel flew out of the rotation by turn/ flail and it flies out from torque/sudden release by separation then TILT and elbow positions. When PCR swings are decent the hitter is TILTING at GO. Many are still experiencing a linear hand path and pulling both hands to the ball

It is a weak point in the PCR program and a strong part of the Epstein program

How to load the hips and hands with BHUT / plane transition ( the peachy thing) is another story all together.

And STEVE ...thanks for your positive comments

[tom.guerry]

Mark H -

Epstein and THT where Jim bailed on the "slot" thread:

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/dcforum/DCForumID2/2534.html#3

"People will ask me about “top hand torque” and its importance in the swing. I think Jack Mankin has been very effective explaining it. It IS important, and Jack should be commended for the thoughtful explanation he has put forth."


Mark, when are you going to contribute some content ?

Do you believe the Nyman "science" ?

Jack is just a crackpot and Nyman put the final nail in the tht coffin ?

I say Nyman just put the nail in the mlb swing if you follow his instructions.

Or you could selectively ignore his "rules" like young Stock did.

Or you could obssessively follow the Nyman rules like STEVE E and it just gets you the Nyman spinhook as even Nyman has figured out.

Lets call obssessive Nyman rule following "PCR".

Lets call ignore what Nyman says if its not working and call it "PCRW" trial and error. Yeah, That's it !

It's a "blueprint".

Sorta like Lau Jr taking credit for any good hitter who releases the top hand.

Can we all just get along ? or is actual quality of info more important ?

[Jake Patterson]

Can we all just get along ? or is actual quality of info more important ?

Why can't it be both? Would this not be similar to going to a great doctor who has no bedside manner. Both are necessary for good patient care.

Why do we need to be contentious in order to argue?

[tom.guerry]

Sounds good to me.

There will be a huge difference in implementing Epstein, for example depending on whether you believe the bat is turned by arm/forearm action involving the one elbow up one elbow down type action as opposed to thinking that shoulder turn is what is turning the bat.

Mike thinks tht is involved. So does Jack.

Jim is creating models which he believes show that shoulder turn what starts the bat turning. This is an ENTIRELY different way of organizing the body, using the arms to form a box to be pulled by shoulder turn as opposed to using this elbows apart configuration to torque the handle.

If you try to get ther bat to turn first by shoulder action, the swing is too long and can NOT be adjusted adequately. COmpletely different patterns/incompatible ways of using shoulders/arms/forearms. Very confusing to teaching learning.

[swingbuster]

When the barrel is more vertical and the elbows change relative positions as the shoulder turns something special happens

The hands rotate the handle a certain distance. If you want to see it extend the top hand thumb and rotate the wrist from palm facing the body to palm flat. The hands are holding the handle that rotates the barrel many times that distance because of the radius of the circle that bat turns is the length of the barrel

It is like a gear effect. A small hand/ handle rotation yields a big barrel rotation radius

One planers cannot do that over the same range of motion because the hands did not counter rotate at all in the BHUT pattern. They get some barrel rotation if the work the elbows right but since PCR doesn't focus there then it rarely happens

If you can see this then the battle is half over

Mike thinks tht is involved. So does Jack.

So does Donny.... I do not belive that THT exist without BHT . You cannot put a force in opposite directions around a point without both hands. THus the lead elbow must work up too

Do you want a high speed gear "amping up" the rotary system or not is the question or tune in next week for " can you really see it or not".

[jbooth]

There will be a huge difference in implementing Epstein, for example depending on whether you believe the bat is turned by arm/forearm action involving the one elbow up one elbow down type action as opposed to thinking that shoulder turn is what is turning the bat.

It's a combination of both.

Mike thinks tht is involved.

I haven't spoken with him in almost 2 years, but the last time we talked, he didn't beleve in THT.

Jim is creating models which he believes show that shoulder turn what starts the bat turning. This is an ENTIRELY different way of organizing the body, using the arms to form a box to be pulled by shoulder turn as opposed to using this elbows apart configuration to torque the handle.

It isn't "torque" by the strict physics defintion. The hands, arms, and shoulders make the bat change angle and move, but "torque" isn't involved.

If you try to get the bat to turn first by shoulder action, the swing is too long and can NOT be adjusted adequately. COmpletely different patterns/incompatible ways of using shoulders/arms/forearms. Very confusing to teaching learning.

I disagree.

[jbooth]

The hands rotate the handle a certain distance. If you want to see it extend the top hand thumb and rotate the wrist from palm facing the body to palm flat. The hands are holding the handle that rotates the barrel many times that distance because of the radius of the circle that bat turns is the length of the barrel

It is like a gear effect. A small hand/ handle rotation yields a big barrel rotation radius

It's more like pulling the knob out from under the bathead, it isn't a twisting action. The knob is moved forward and the bathead gets whipped around.

You cannot put a force in opposite directions around a point without both hands.

That statement is true, but that isn't what happens. The knob is pulled out from under the bathead. The hands stay in position without applying torque, to keep the bathead still while the handle moves. Once the handle changes position and accelerates, the bathead has to accelerate with angular momentum to catch up. It's all about accelerating the hands, it's not about applying early force to the bathead, using the hands. The hands DO apply torque just before ball contact.

[swingbuster]

The hands DO apply torque just before ball contact.

Probably not. They do more at launch than at contact from stretch and fire

I said that as the shoulders turn the relative elbow positional changes apply a force to the handle

The handle is moved around a rotation center between the hands a few inches. At the other end at the barrel the bat moves a huge multiple of that.

That hand rotation/ torque in conjuction with the shoulder turn yields a mulitple lever or gear effect.

That is just plain fact.

The knob is pulled out from under the bathead

By the bottom hand going from vertical to flat and the top hand going pronated to palm up
there is a forward pull and a rotational force that are opposite. The top hand with elbow slotting hard and fast has NO force??/ come on....The barrel turning from vertical to diagonal gains no gravity advantage...come on.

Why is it hard to catch up to the high fast ball?