Discuss this

[jbooth]

The mpg below is 7 meg but I think it's worth looking at.

It's 3 views of the Bonds/Williams style swing, and 3 views of the other style. It's done with some unusual props in my hands.

Let's discuss what we see, and if you think it's a reasonably accurate reproduction of the two types of swings.
Look at the hoop and the bat extensions to see how the geometry of a swing changes during the swing.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/devicedemo.mpg

[Jake Patterson]

The mpg below is 7 meg but I think it's worth looking at.

It's 3 views of the Bonds/Williams style swing, and 3 views of the other style. It's done with some unusual props in my hands.

Let's discuss what we see, and if you think it's a reasonably accurate reproduction of the two types of swings.
Look at the hoop and the bat extensions to see how the geometry of a swing changes during the swing.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/devicedemo.mpg

Jim,
Hmmm ... wouldn't load. Is it me or the URL?

[jbooth]

Jim,
Hmmm ... wouldn't load. Is it me or the URL?

Plays for me on both of my computers.

It's 7 megs. It takes a few minutes before it plays depending on the download speed of your internet connection.

[LClifton]

and if you think it's a reasonably accurate reproduction of the two types of swings.
Yes, it is reasonably accurate.
If the hoop was bigger, it would keep you from ducking to demonstrate.
Also it prompts you to raise your hands more than normal on the two plane demo.
But again, (not being overly critical) it is a reasonable demo.
In the first three views, it represents a two plane swing.
Then the next 3 a one plane swing.

The thing I don't see in the one plane or the two plane version is the lead shoulder action exhibited in these clips.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/MCabrera2005FLA_SView01.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/miles1.gif
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/wright2.gif

You can have a tilted appearance to the shoulders and not have the lead shoulder "action" that is exhibited in the MLB swing, if that joint is locked in all it can do is turn the corner.
The end result of the hoop would then be different, it would "pop up" in front of your face much later.

[TwinEngine]

I see nothing reasonably accurate.

In none of the views do you demonstrate the proper use of the hands.

In every view, the barrel will drag.

In every view the shoulder usage does not resemble mlb players.

In not one view do you demonstrate a reasonably accurate diagonal swing plane.

And, I'm not being confrontational. I'm being honest.

Jim, you will not create barrel bluring rearward in frame one without handle torque. And you're doing your best to avoid it.

[LClifton]

If the idea was to show a two plane versus a one plane swing it is "reasonable",,,,not 100% accurate.
How the bat starts in front on a two plane and then moves to on plane--- this provides a reasonable demo of it, not a complete one.

[jbooth]

If the idea was to show a two plane versus a one plane swing it is "reasonable",,,,not 100% accurate.
How the bat starts in front on a two plane and then moves to on plane--- this provides a reasonable demo of it, not a complete one.

Looks pretty close to me.

What's different? Speaking of upper body only. It's not 100% accurate because I'm swinging at about 1/4 speed.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/demodevicejm.jpg

[LClifton]

Lead arm stretch.
Body angle going into stride 2nd still
Bat is flatter in Morneu in 3rd still
More upper body / lower body stretch in Morneau in 3rd still (sorry you said upper only)
Evidence of shoulder tilting as first move of shoudlers seen clear into the 4th still...based on the way the front shoulder is less open and still has the "popped up" look to it.
And you have on some nice cargo shorts that Morneau doesn't. (sorry lower body again) :p

Jim, I said reasonable because that was your word in the original post. I mean it as a compliment. The hoop is visual. Very nice, but I think restricts you some because of the size.

[jbooth]

Lead arm stretch.
Body angle going into stride 2nd still
Bat is flatter in Morneu in 3rd still
More upper body / lower body stretch in Morneau in 3rd still (sorry you said upper only)
Evidence of shoulder tilting as first move of shoudlers seen clear into the 4th still...based on the way the front shoulder is less open and still has the "popped up" look to it.
And you have on some nice cargo shorts that Morneau doesn't. (sorry lower body again) :p

Jim, I said reasonable because that was your word in the original post. I mean it as a compliment. The hoop is visual. Very nice, but I think restricts you some because of the size.

You just don't get it, and neither does TwinEngine. You're nit-picking differences that will NEVER match somebody else's swing, (especially comparing a demo to a game swing), and failing to get the fundamental movements that are involved.

[4for4]

You just don't get it, and neither does TwinEngine. You're nit-picking differences that will NEVER match somebody else's swing, (especially comparing a demo to a game swing), and failing to get the fundamental movements that are involved.

Sounds 'bout right Jim.

[TwinEngine]

Looks pretty close to me.

What's different? Speaking of upper body only. It's not 100% accurate because I'm swinging at about 1/4 speed.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/demodevicejm.jpg


You're swinging 1/4 speed and you get to the same positions Morneau gets to? I assume in the same frame order?

Is that your point?

[LClifton]

Looks pretty close to me.

What's different? Speaking of upper body only. It's not 100% accurate because I'm swinging at about 1/4 speed.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/demodevicejm.jpg
Was the question to point out differences?
Jim, I was not being disrespectful to you.
I know it's not 100% accurate and if you look closely at who I was addressing, (it was Richard), ORIGINALLY with that comment, maybe you can see what I was trying to do..maybe not. It was posted right after his post.
It was support of what you were doing....thinking you were going to make a point about it. I thought that is why you wanted the feedback on what was different.
My apologies for the confusion with my post. It was not directed to you.
I felt it was a reasonable representation. Still do.
I think if you go back and look at much of the things you have posted I have always been able to see your point and support your view.
Tim on the other hand never makes a point. Pretty much sums that up.
You just don't get it, and neither does TwinEngine. You're nit-picking differences that will NEVER match somebody else's swing, (especially comparing a demo to a game swing), and failing to get the fundamental movements that are involved.
Well Jim, you are right. I don't get it,,,you asked me to point out differences.
I was just stupid enough to think that is what you wanted.

[MSandman]

[QUOTE=jbooth]Looks pretty close to me.

What's different? Speaking of upper body only. It's not 100% accurate because I'm swinging at about 1/4 speed.

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/demodevicejm2.jpg

Besides the camera angle on the pro not being really 90 degrees...

1. Your posture appears much more upright; your spine looks almost straight and your rear end straight under your shoulders (despite your head being tilted out a bit more over the plate).

2. Much less shoulder tilt at launch.

3. Lead arm away from body. Perhaps a remnant from the Fence Drill? :p

(I know you only asked for upper body, but I see an earlier straightened lead leg too. ;))

[jbooth]

You're swinging 1/4 speed and you get to the same positions Morneau gets to? I assume in the same frame order?

Is that your point?

Nope, strain your brain a little, and see if you can see what I'm trying to show. Just focus on the white stick and the hoop and how it moves in relationship to the upper body movement. Maybe if you watch long enough you'll finally understand the geometry of the movement and the kinetics.

[jbooth]

Was the question to point out differences?
Jim, I was not being disrespectful to you.
I know it's not 100% accurate and if you look closely at who I was addressing, (it was Richard), ORIGINALLY with that comment, maybe you can see what I was trying to do..maybe not. It was posted right after his post.
It was support of what you were doing....thinking you were going to make a point about it. I thought that is why you wanted the feedback on what was different.
My apologies for the confusion with my post. It was not directed to you.
I felt it was a reasonable representation. Still do.
I think if you go back and look at much of the things you have posted I have always been able to see your point and support your view.
Tim on the other hand never makes a point. Pretty much sums that up.

Well Jim, you are right. I don't get it,,,you asked me to point out differences.
I was just stupid enough to think that is what you wanted.

I'm waiting for more comments before I explain what I'm trying to show. I am waiting to see what people see. You took me literally on my differences statement and that is part of the problem. Look for the fundamental movements that are the same, not minor differences due to the technical difficulties in trying to set up a visual on the internet.

[jbooth]

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/demodevicejm2.jpg

Besides the camera angle on the pro not being really 90 degrees...

1. Your posture appears much more upright; your spine looks almost straight and your rear end straight under your shoulders (despite your head being tilted out a bit more over the plate).

2. Much less shoulder tilt at launch.

3. Lead arm away from body. Perhaps a remnant from the Fence Drill? :p

(I know you only asked for upper body, but I see an earlier straightened lead leg too. ;))

It's NOT a critique of my swing, it isn't even a swing. Geez, can any of you get the point? Look at the white stick and see if you can see how it's angles move similarly to Morneau's bat and arm angles. Then ask yourself how the body moves to accomplish that. Compare how the YELLOW lines I drew on Morneau, compare to the movement of the corresponding angles on the stick I'm swinging. Don't focus so much on my body positions.

[LClifton]

I'm waiting for more comments before I explain what I'm trying to show. I am waiting to see what people see. You took me literally on my differences statement and that is part of the problem. Look for the fundamental movements that are the same, not minor differences due to the technical difficulties in trying to set up a visual on the internet.
No thanks,
From a guy that doesn't get it you wouldn't want that from me.
From you---- regarding my daughter you said her upper body in her swing was near perfect,,,so I'll just go on "not getting it."
Again I've always admired your teaching but the respect is obviously not mutual. Good luck in egoland.

[swingbuster]

I am lost on this thread. WHen we tallk two plane swings isn't a frontal view best

[jbooth]

No thanks,
From a guy that doesn't get it you wouldn't want that from me.
From you---- regarding my daughter you said her upper body in her swing was near perfect,,,so I'll just go on "not getting it."
Again I've always admired your teaching but the respect is obviously not mutual. Good luck in egoland.

I sent you a PM, but I will also apologize here for misunderstanding your first reply.

[MSandman]

It's NOT a critique of my swing, it isn't even a swing. Geez, can any of you get the point? Look at the white stick and see if you can see how it's angles move similarly to Morneau's bat and arm angles. Then ask yourself how the body moves to accomplish that. Compare how the YELLOW lines I drew on Morneau, compare to the movement of the corresponding angles on the stick I'm swinging. Don't focus so much on my body positions.

Yes, you keep the hinge angle between forearm and bat, as the yellow line shows.

But you also do a lot of other/different things w/ your upper body. And I thought the point was to answer your direct question below, not try to read between the lines to discover what you meant this to show us.

What's different? Speaking of upper body only.

[tominct]

Im not going to go into all the kinestetics of it, I don't have time for that, certainly no time to guess what the Boothman is getting at, but I will say this, its a pretty cool toy! I assume its PVC and hula hoop right? I like the piece of pvc against the right forearm, preventing casting with the front arm, the hula hoop getting around the head on vertivcal load is nice, all very visual and concrete for the learner. Also, that front pvc piece gets upright at the contact point, which I suppose one could use to teach.

I just go make one for my kids!

Tom

[jbooth]

Im not going to go into all the kinestetics of it, I don't have time for that, certainly no time to guess what the Boothman is getting at, but I will say this, its a pretty cool toy! I assume its PVC and hula hoop right? I like the piece of pvc against the right forearm, preventing casting with the front arm, the hula hoop getting around the head on vertivcal load is nice, all very visual and concrete for the learner. Also, that front pvc piece gets upright at the contact point, which I suppose one could use to teach.

I just go make one for my kids!

Tom

It's just 3 pieces 3/4" PVC stuck into a "T" elbow. The hoola hoop is separate, it's not attached to the PVC. That's why the swing isn't 100% accurate because I'm trying to hold the hoola hoop in position with my hands while doing everything else.

I use the PVC to allow the student to see and feel, how to get the bat horizontal and parallel with the plate, without straightening the front elbow, or losing the 90 degree bat to forearm angle.

[tominct]

I use the PVC to allow the student to see and feel, how to get the bat horizontal and parallel with the plate, without straightening the front elbow, or losing the 90 degree bat to forearm angle.

So I had a clue?

tom

[jbooth]

So I had a clue?

tom

Absolutely!

[Encinitas]

Gents a quick question or actually for JBooth.

Many hitters as they stride out achieve extension with the lead arm. Not barring, but more like good extension (think Griffey). I would assume that this device doesn't really impact that because it's more concerned with the bat angle relative to forearm?

[jbooth]

Gents a quick question or actually for JBooth.

Many hitters as they stride out achieve extension with the lead arm. Not barring, but more like good extension (think Griffey). I would assume that this device doesn't really impact that because it's more concerned with the bat angle relative to forearm?

It depends on the front elbow angle at load. Griffey doesn't have much of a "box" shape. If you think of a box as four 90 degree angles. The "box" doesn't have to have four 90 degree angles. It can have a different shape, but whatever shape it has at launch, you need to try to maintain. However, in a real game swing, no MLB hitter maintains his "box" on EVERY swing.

Setting a box, and maintaining it is a GOAL. That goal cannot always be met in a game at-bat.

The best hitters, like Bonds etc, have close to a 90 degree box, and they maintain it well on pitches middle and in, at the belt. THAT is the swing that you try to ingrain into your brain and muscles. You adjust to game pitches from that swing. The PVC device I use teaches the student how to set and maintain effective arm angles, to effectively hit the "fat" pitch. Obviously, you could not hit every pitch thrown at you while absolutely maintaining that position.

You START the swing by keeping the hands at the shoulder as you turn the shoulder, and you try to maintain your front elbow bend, but as you turn into the ball, you may have to make adjustments in arm angles and hand direction, in order to hit the ball. The more adjustments that you make, the faster you lose effeciency of creating energy to hit the ball hard. But, the main goal is to hit the ball. You have to adjust. It doesn't do any good to take a perfect looking swing that has maximum force, and not hit the ball.
But, it also doesn't do any good to simply do whatever move you feel like, to get the bat on the ball, and in so doing, hit it weakly. You have to hit it, AND hit it hard. That is what separates the MLB hitters from the rest of us. They can do BOTH.

I have an above average ability to hit the ball, but I can't consistently hit it HARD. And my best hard hits, are not at the level of high level hitters. I know some amateur friends who can hit it much harder than me, when they hit it, but they miss, or mis-hit, much more than me.

There are fundamental body movements that relate to, and affect power production, and others that relate to, and affect the abiltiy to consistently hit the ball. You have to learn both and put them together to consistently hit the ball, and hit it hard.

The device I made teaches fundamental principles of how to keep the hands and bathead back and release late to create maximum power. Proper leg movement is critical to keeping posture, and the head steady, so that that power will contact the ball.

[LClifton]

Originally Posted by Encinitas
Gents a quick question or actually for JBooth.

Many hitters as they stride out achieve extension with the lead arm. Not barring, but more like good extension (think Griffey). I would assume that this device doesn't really impact that because it's more concerned with the bat angle relative to forearm?


It depends on the front elbow angle at load.
Lead arm extension and how:
this is one (of the many) directions I wrongfully (obviously) thought this thread was going to take,

Nonetheless,

Lead arm extension (shoulder load) (just my "no clue" view)

Can the lead arm be extended without changing the angle at the elbow?
Yes, and should be, IMO.
With the lead arm only if you were to get into your batting stance.
The elongation of the lead arm, without elbow extension, can be done by movement in the lead shoulder joint, more specifically the rear part of the shoulder.
From the rear arm perspective loading the scapula, either actively or passively (during the load, as perhaps in Bonds) could extend the lead arm.
Maybe the right wording is not extend but "stretch without changing the angle at the elbow"...

Put these two together (with both hands on the bat) and actively load the back scap (pinch toward the spine) while extending the front one (away from the spine)---does this move effectively extend / stretch the lead arm without changing the angle at the elbow?

Is this beneficial for preparedness to unload?

What is a way you would teach this to young hitters?

[swingbuster]

lead arm is extended ( when done properly) by rotational divergence of the upper and the lower body not linear elongation

The internal rotation of the rear shoulder and the external rotation of the hips does in on the way to foot plant as the x angle widens

[LClifton]

lead arm is extended ( when done properly) by rotational divergence of the upper and the lower body not linear elongation
So, it would be done more passively via a later-- shoulder load?

[swingbuster]

I think it is TOTALLY passive or at least not a conscience function of the arm

I think it just happens in the over lap of shoulder load vs hip rotation into foot plant

I am almost certain of this....it must

Barring the lead arm is pushing the arm long and then striding to hit . There is no spatial separation of the upper and lower body

It is a bad swing flaw