Always room for improvement..........

[SLBaseballDad]

One of my son's teammates moms is a photographer. She took many pictures of my son's pitching outing. I'm sure a video would be much better, but this is all I have. So I put in 6 different pitching sequences each representing one pitch (all fast balls) hoping that you all could see some things.

He's had only minimal professional instruction. Most of his instruction is from me. The issues I've noticed are.....

1. he short arm's it sometimes (described as he looks to be pushing the ball)
2. probably 60% of his misses are misses high
3. he tends to twist when he brings his knee up
4. he doesn't get into the classic "Cobra" position very well (ie. showing the ball to the center fielder)

Anyway, he's only 9, so I'm not expecting perfection but I think he does pretty good for his age. Your opinions on areas we should work on would be appreciated very much.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence1.jpg

[Chris O'Leary]

One of my son's teammates moms is a photographer. She took many pictures of my son's pitching outing. I'm sure a video would be much better, but this is all I have. So I put in 6 different pitching sequences each representing one pitch (all fast balls) hoping that you all could see some things.

He's had only minimal professional instruction. Most of his instruction is from me. The issues I've noticed are.....

1. he short arm's it sometimes (described as he looks to be pushing the ball)
2. probably 60% of his misses are misses high
3. he tends to twist when he brings his knee up
4. he doesn't get into the classic "Cobra" position very well (ie. showing the ball to the center fielder)

Anyway, he's only 9, so I'm not expecting perfection but I think he does pretty good for his age. Your opinions on areas we should work on would be appreciated very much.

I think he looks fine.

Missing high suggests rushing, which means trying to get too much out of the stride.

In terms of his not getting into the "Cobra" position, I think it's good that he doesn't. Showing the ball to 2B/CF is questionable advice for anatomical reasons, not to mention the fact that 95% of major league pitchers don't do it.

[3rdgenerationnation]

I think there is a lot more to like about what he's doing then to find fault with. I really like how he gets to foot strike and how he seems to maintain a firm front side. He seems to hide the ball well too. He may be a little bit of a short armer but there are lots of effective pitchers like that. Chris is right that without video you can't really get a sense of his rhythm. He may be rushing a little bit. I really like those pitchers that build up slowly, then explode on the hitter.

As for missing high are you asking him to adjust? Does he have a target every time he throws a pitch? My experience is that a lot of corrections can be learned by letting the body make the adjustment required. Without a target you don't know what adjustment to make.

[BallCoach06]

Looks pretty good.

With the rushing aspect, one thing that might help that you can try is trying to get hand seperation a little earlier.

I just came back from a pitching clinic where the bullpen coach from the Rockies stated he tries to get his pitchers to begin or have hand separation at the balance point rather than after the balance point. This helps with the rushing aspect.

In the photos you have, I noticed that in the balance position, the pitcher has both hands together. Just one thing you can try to see if it helps him.

[XFactor]

Granted, I'm basing this only from the pics, but from what I gathered..

1) He stays over his backleg too long (in a few pics I noticed this), which you can see it starts to bend a bit before he starts moving forward. What's happening is you're losing energy, thus maximum velocity isn't being reached

And yes, if you throw high it's usually because you're not getting your arm in the cocked position. You'll want to break your hands sooner.

[YankeeFan01]

Ummmm....are you sure he's nine?

[XFactor]

Yeah, it is his son afterall.. he could be a few years off.

[wogdoggy]

seqwuence 5 picture three looks like hes in a good spot right there? CHRIS?

[Chris O'Leary]

seqwuence 5 picture three looks like hes in a good spot right there? CHRIS?

He's throwing the ball REALLY hard.

Well above average for his age.

[steve R]

Chris,

Looks pretty good!

[steve R]

Chris,

He has got plenty of years to pitch hard. Learn to pitch to locations

Jut my 2 cents

Steve

[nikae]

seqwuence 5 picture three looks like hes in a good spot right there? CHRIS?

I am 24 and I just cant make my forearm bounce back like that.

[SLBaseballDad]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

After reading them, here are some addition thoughts/action plans I'm contemplating.

I know he throws very hard for his age. No one has stressed that as being important infact I asked his travel team coach to not mention it to him at all.

Last time I checked he was 9. :D Actually, he turns 9 in March.

XFactor, I agree. It looked like he wasn't really wasn't driving his middle home but more of a drop and drive. I wanted to see if anyone else picked that out. thanks

To all who suggested it, I'll try to get him to break his hands just a little sooner. thanks for that idea.

thanks for the kind comments on his abilities.

[Chris O'Leary]

I know he throws very hard for his age. No one has stressed that as being important infact I asked his travel team coach to not mention it to him at all.

You've got to be careful with a kid that can throw this hard at so young of an age. If he were my son, I would severely restrict his innings and pitches. Maybe 2-3 innings once a week and no pitching twice a weekend in tournaments.

Otherwise, he'll end up with an overuse injury.

Second, I would try to get him to back off a few MPH which should help him keep the ball down. He needs to learn that throwing the ball hard doesn't always work. Good hitters will destroy a hard-thrown ball that's up in the zone. Maybe teach him to throw a 2-Seamer/Sinker.

Third, I would also teach him an off-speed pitch and try to get him to throw that 30-40% of the time.

Fourth, breaking the hands sooner is something to try. It may help with the rushing problem.

Bottom line is that this kid has got a lot of talent but has to be managed carefully or else he'll destroy his arm.

[SLBaseballDad]

You've got to be careful with a kid that can throw this hard at so young of an age. If he were my son, I would severely restrict his innings and pitches. Maybe 2-3 innings once a week and no pitching twice a weekend in tournaments.


Funny you should say that. That's about all he does pitch as he starts to get wild in the 3rd almost every time. Kind of a mental hurdle I think but that's ok for now as it keeps him from being in too long. My rule for his coaches is 50-55 pitches only per game.

Everything else you said I agree with whole heartedly. We've been working on a change up but he's just not ready to use it yet. It's a three finger change thrown like a football. Real affective if he can get the hang of it.

Thanks again for your kind words on his talent. Maybe he'll go somewhere with it if his dad (me) doesn't mess him up.:D

[SLBaseballDad]

And yes, if you throw high it's usually because you're not getting your arm in the cocked position. You'll want to break your hands sooner.

If possible from the pics, what would his arm look like if he were getting it cocked well?

Actually, I guess the right question to ask is....what can I key in on to help him get his arm in the cocked position?

thanks

[Chris O'Leary]

Thanks again for your kind words on his talent. Maybe he'll go somewhere with it if his dad (me) doesn't mess him up.:D

I think you've done a great job with him and wouldn't change a thing.

I'm more worried about a coach screwing him up.

[bbjunkie]

My son and I went to a pitcher's clinic last weekend. A pro-pitcher, an ex-pro-pitcher and a college coach ran the show. There are a couple significant differences in what they were teaching and what your boy is doing. One is the so-called cobra position. They wanted the kids to essentially have their hands go in symmetrical circular directions until the upper arms and body were in essentially a straight line pointing toward home plate and the ball hand facing 2nd base. They said the glove hand shouldn't come back toward the body until rotation begins. They also suggested dropping the hands to knee level (in balance position) before separating.

This isn't any kind of criticism, but I notice that your boy doesn't extend his glove hand at all. I too am just looking for feedback. I know a lot more about hitting than pitching. I agree with the others' suggestions to separate the hands a little earlier.

Chris,

What is the rationale for not using the cobra position? Thanx

[Chris O'Leary]

If possible from the pics, what would his arm look like if he were getting it cocked well?

Actually, I guess the right question to ask is....what can I key in on to help him get his arm in the cocked position?

S3P2 shows that his timing is fine...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/newtexasjeeper/Sequence3.jpg

[bbjunkie]

BTW, I forgot to mention that your boy's motion looks far better than any kid I've seen around here at the same age, and better than most at older ages.

[Chris O'Leary]

BTW, I forgot to mention that your boy's motion looks far better than any kid I've seen around here at the same age, and better than most at older ages.

I agree.

He even looks better than some college guys I've scouted.

[wogdoggy]

that being said make sure you teach him to play both infield and outfield just as hard as you stress his throwing..just cause hes a stud pitcher at 9 means nothing..when hes 13 and theres bigger kids physically he should have something to fall back on..

[SLBaseballDad]

that being said make sure you teach him to play both infield and outfield just as hard as you stress his throwing..just cause hes a stud pitcher at 9 means nothing..when hes 13 and theres bigger kids physically he should have something to fall back on..

I'm with ya on this one! On this team they play 2 positions (1 being primary) plus pitcher if they pitch. His has been Cat(1) and LF(2) in the past and is now SS(1) and Cat(2) plus pitcher some. Alot of long throwing in his current rolls. Just another reason to limit his pitching.

Thanks again everyone!

[Jake Patterson]

I'm with ya on this one! On this team they play 2 positions (1 being primary) plus pitcher if they pitch. His has been Cat(1) and LF(2) in the past and is now SS(1) and Cat(2) plus pitcher some. Alot of long throwing in his current rolls. Just another reason to limit his pitching.

Thanks again everyone!

Because most pitchers tend to be the better players they usually play SS, LF CF or 3B when they are taken out of the game. I suggest to coaches that when the pitcher is done take him out of the game. If you need to play him move him to 1B and make the adjustments. An explosive unexpected throw from SS can have devastating effects on a tired young arm.

[Baseball gLove]

I am 24 and I just cant make my forearm bounce back like that.

Don't worry about it. It is not something you should be trying to do consciously. Do the long toss drill I was telling you about. After you reach your maximum distance, come back in 5 feet with each throw; keep throwing hard while pulling down on the ball to make your throws until you are 50 feet from your partner. If you have no partner, use a bucket of balls. My 14 year old son long tosses over 300 feet (from goal post to goal post on a football field).

[Baseball gLove]

My son and I went to a pitcher's clinic last weekend. A pro-pitcher, an ex-pro-pitcher and a college coach ran the show. There are a couple significant differences in what they were teaching and what your boy is doing. One is the so-called cobra position. They wanted the kids to essentially have their hands go in symmetrical circular directions until the upper arms and body were in essentially a straight line pointing toward home plate and the ball hand facing 2nd base. They said the glove hand shouldn't come back toward the body until rotation begins. They also suggested dropping the hands to knee level (in balance position) before separating.

This isn't any kind of criticism, but I notice that your boy doesn't extend his glove hand at all. I too am just looking for feedback. I know a lot more about hitting than pitching. I agree with the others' suggestions to separate the hands a little earlier.

Chris,

What is the rationale for not using the cobra position? Thanx


He doesn't need to extend his arm.

Here is a clip of a pretty decent pitcher.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro?p=15&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[Chris O'Leary]

They wanted the kids to essentially have their hands go in symmetrical circular directions until the upper arms and body were in essentially a straight line pointing toward home plate and the ball hand facing 2nd base. They said the glove hand shouldn't come back toward the body until rotation begins. They also suggested dropping the hands to knee level (in balance position) before separating.

I am fine with all of this.


This isn't any kind of criticism, but I notice that your boy doesn't extend his glove hand at all. I too am just looking for feedback. I know a lot more about hitting than pitching. I agree with the others' suggestions to separate the hands a little earlier.

I like extending the hands toward the target during the stride because it can help some people keep their shoulders closed.

However, this isn't a problem for this kid.


Chris, What is the rationale for not using the cobra position? Thanx

1. 95% of major leaguers do not do this. Instead, they show the ball to SS/3B. Danys Baez is one of the few ML's who actually does this. Maddux, Clemens, Ryan, etc. don't.

2. The problem with showing the ball to 2B/CF at this point is that you have to pronate to do this. To get the palm to face the target, you then have to supinate the forearm prior to the release. Supinating the forearm at this point is bad because it focuses the load on the UCL. What you want to do is be supinated at the high cocked position so you are forced to pronate prior to the release point.

[Chris O'Leary]

I am 24 and I just cant make my forearm bounce back like that.

Don't worry about it. It is not something you should be trying to do consciously.

I agree.

Forearm lay back or bounce is the EFFECT of throwing hard, not the CAUSE of throwing hard.

I can usually judge pretty well how hard a guy is throwing by looking at how much bounce/layback/external rotation they achieve.

[SLBaseballDad]

2. The problem with showing the ball to 2B/CF at this point is that you have to pronate to do this. To get the palm to face the target, you then have to supinate the forearm prior to the release. Supinating the forearm at this point is bad because it focuses the load on the UCL. What you want to do is be supinated at the high cocked position so you are forced to pronate prior to the release point.


I have a real mental block on "pronate" and "supinate". Is ther an easy way to explain this?

[Chris O'Leary]

I have a real mental block on "pronate" and "supinate". Is ther an easy way to explain this?

Imagine turning a door knob.

Supinating = Turning the knob clockwise (aka palm up)
Pronating = Turning the knob counterclockwise (aka palm down).

Most pitchers supinate through the Release Point when throwing a slider or curveball.

Just to be clear, pronating is a very good thing, but it has to be done at the right moment.

The right moment to pronate is just before and through the Release Point.

Also, to maximize how much you can pronate, it is best to have your forearm supinated (not just neutral).

[nikae]

I am 24 and I just cant make my forearm bounce back like that.


I agree.

Forearm lay back or bounce is the EFFECT of throwing hard, not the CAUSE of throwing hard.

I can usually judge pretty well how hard a guy is throwing by looking at how much bounce/layback/external rotation they achieve.

FINALLY! I got the answer to my question. Was looking for it for like a month.

I always tought its a CAUSE of throwing hard. I tried all stupid things to make my farearm bounce back.

I tried to focus on my elbow going first, which was obviously stupid.

One more thing, when forearm gets bounced back, should i use arm (probably forearm) muscles to get it extend, or it will extend on its own?

[SLBaseballDad]

Imagine turning a door knob.

Supinating = Turning the knob clockwise (aka palm up)
Pronating = Turning the knob counterclockwise (aka palm down).

Most pitchers supinate through the Release Point when throwing a slider or curveball.

Just to be clear, pronating is a very good thing, but it has to be done at the right moment.

The right moment to pronate is just before and through the Release Point.

Also, to maximize how much you can pronate, it is best to have your forearm supinated (not just neutral).


Ah....ok, my older son takes lessons and his instructor tells him to pretend he has a glass of water in his hand and to pour the water out in front of him after he breaks his hands. That basically gets him to pronate. Correct?

[Chris O'Leary]

One more thing, when forearm gets bounced back, should i use arm (probably forearm) muscles to get it extend, or it will extend on its own?

If you're throwing hard enough, it will extend on its own.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ah....ok, my older son takes lessons and his instructor tells him to pretend he has a glass of water in his hand and to pour the water out in front of him after he breaks his hands. That basically gets him to pronate. Correct?

That is correct.

[SLBaseballDad]

That is correct.

Thanks...as usual, I've once again learned something new and maybe a better way to describe something to my boys.