Englishbey or Epstein?

[AcidLake]

Okay, I've browsed on those two sites of Englishbey and Epstein (to learn about rotational hitting). What I've noticed is that Epstein has big history of teaching the students to thousands dollars of scholarships and MLB contracts (that's what he states). Englishbey, in the other hand, didn't seem to have good history, but yet a lot of people here recommends his programs.

To get to subject, can you tell me which one is the way to get and good reason why? Thanks

[Jake Patterson]

Okay, I've browsed on those two sites of Englishbey and Epstein (to learn about rotational hitting). What I've noticed is that Epstein has big history of teaching the students to thousands dollars of scholarships and MLB contracts (that's what he states). Englishbey, in the other hand, didn't seem to have good history, but yet a lot of people here recommends his programs.

To get to subject, can you tell me which one is the way to get and good reason why? Thanks

What age and level?

[AcidLake]

What age and level?
I just turned 16, and I started to play baseball 3 years ago. I only played 20~30 games so far in my life since then. But I did hit well in my first league back then though. I'm looking to tryout for high school team (Junior Varsity, but it'd be superb to get promoted to Varsity)

EDIT: Oh, I actually finished with Lau's DVD. I'm hitting pretty good against 80 mph automatic fastball machine. I figured out that Lau's method wasn't rotational though...

[steve R]

Go with Epstein I promise you, you won't be sorry.:waving

[Jake Patterson]

I just turned 16, and I started to play baseball 3 years ago. I only played 20~30 games so far in my life since then. But I did hit well in my first league back then though. I'm looking to tryout for high school team (Junior Varsity, but it'd be superb to get promoted to Varsity)

EDIT: Oh, I actually finished with Lau's DVD. I'm hitting pretty good against 80 mph automatic fastball machine. I figured out that Lau's method wasn't rotational though...

Acid I would recommend Steve's DVD if you want to excell in HS. The DVD is a little expensive but access to his site for problems and discussion is worth it.

Epstein is a good teacher, I have found that Englishbey however has made teaching and learning the swing fairly simplistic. Send Steve a PM he may be able to help.

[TwinEngine]

The absolute best information is at Hittingillustrated.

[Mark H]

Go with Epstein I promise you, you won't be sorry.:waving

Always compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the the best in the world. The best in the world do not sit on their back foot and spin. Having said that, Epstein will get you to a certain level. That may be enough depending on your goals.

[turnin2]

i personally like englishbey. while the presentation of his dvd's isn't the best, the material is good. haven't looked much at epstein, but englishbey is pretty solid. personally i tried it before using it with my son or players, and i felt my attention to my posture and connection had me shorter and quicker to the ball with more explosion.

[swingbuster]

Acid I would recommend Steve's DVD if you want to excell in HS. The DVD is a little expensive but access to his site for problems and discussion is worth it.

Epstein is a good teacher, I have found that Englishbey however has made teaching and learning the swing fairly simplistic. Send Steve a PM he may be able to help.
__________________

Jake ,

could you elaborate on this please?

[dougmac]

Okay, I've browsed on those two sites of Englishbey and Epstein (to learn about rotational hitting). What I've noticed is that Epstein has big history of teaching the students to thousands dollars of scholarships and MLB contracts (that's what he states). Englishbey, in the other hand, didn't seem to have good history, but yet a lot of people here recommends his programs.

To get to subject, can you tell me which one is the way to get and good reason why? Thanks


If you go down to the local bookstore, you can buy a copy of Ted Williams book, "The Science of Hitting". As a Dad, you can read it a few times and then go to the cage and start helping your son. If you don't have any knowledge of hitting, it will be difficult to know which teacher is good, bad or whatever. Buy the book and read it until you understand it and you will be able to help your son a lot more than where you are at right now.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake ,
could you elaborate on this please?

Donny,
After running a large clinic for years and having attended dozens of clinics to iclude Cherry Hill and the World Baseball Convention numerous times I have found Steve to be one of the best in several respects.
1. I find his approach simple and easy to teach/learn.
2. He uses simple available training aids that are readily available to all players/coaches (i.e. sticks and bungie cords, etc.).
3. His site is full of good information and Steve always makes himself available for discussion and/or problems.
4. Having spoken to him several times I find he his able to relate to those who want to talk about the swing on a Kenesiological basis or those who have picked up a bat for the first time.

Look, the way I look at what goes on here (which I feel is very educational) is that most instructor/clinicians/teachers/coaches on this site, including you, agree on the major aspects of the rotational swing. We have more common ground than we do items we disagree upon. I feel that we sometimes spend so much time on the minutea that we lose sight of the basics and we may be confusing more new coaches/dads than we help. Steve just makes it simple....

Make sense?
Jake

[Mark H]

If you go down to the local bookstore, you can buy a copy of Ted Williams book, "The Science of Hitting". As a Dad, you can read it a few times and then go to the cage and start helping your son. If you don't have any knowledge of hitting, it will be difficult to know which teacher is good, bad or whatever. Buy the book and read it until you understand it and you will be able to help your son a lot more than where you are at right now.

Good advice. Another method I recommend for separating the good teacher from the bad is always compare anything anyone tells you about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=ww1dbke0y3.zebra_s

[Mark H]

More elite hitters.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?board=17.0

http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?board=23.0

http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?board=21.0

[TwinEngine]

Good advice. Another method I recommend for separating the good teacher from the bad is always compare anything anyone tells you about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=ww1dbke0y3.zebra_s

That is great advice.

My question is why doesn't PCR use video?

[AcidLake]

I appreciate your responses so far, but this time, can you tell me which program can lead to better outcome?

[4for4]

I've used both. I believe Englishbey is superior. There is a lot of information as to why that's been posted on this site over the past year or so.

I appreciate your responses so far, but this time, can you tell me which program can lead to better outcome?

[Mark H]

Agreed.

Ask your question at both sites straight out and check those answers.

[AcidLake]

Here are my situations so far:

If I am going to by Epstein, I'd have an advantage of recieving 2 books and computer program by ordering Hall Of Fame package. He seemed to detail what I'll learn in the DVD (Enforcer drill, Live hitting, more drills, etc.)

If I am going by Englishbey, I'd have 3 DVD's (basic and advanced) that I don't know the slight detail about. (If you can, can you guys tell me some things I'll learn in his DVD's?) I know you guys are recommending it alot though...

Sorry for being picky, but it's important for me. Thanks:clapping

[dougmac]

If it is really and truely important to you, then spend $15 and buy Ted Williams book. Then read it a few times and absorb what he has to say.

[4for4]

If it is really and truely important to you, then spend $15 and buy Ted Williams book. Then read it a few times and absorb what he has to say.


I think you should do as dmac says. I answered your original question above. If you would like to talk to Steve, PM me and I'll see about getting it arranged. I know Mike makes himself pretty available as well.

[steve R]

Hi Acidlake

You answered your own question in your second sentence. Mike will take you as far as you want to go . It is up to you!

Take Care

[Ursa Major]

Acid, Epstein had a headstart in terms of time and name recognition, so his web site will look glossier and have the bulletpoints that tell you all sorts of advantages. So, I wouldn't use that as a determinant.

What I like about Steve's approach it that he'll explain in kinesiological and physics terms why a certain mechanic will lead to more power, and it sure makes sense to me reading it and to kids I teach it to. And, while Epstein may have helped thousands, we don't know how many others didn't reach their full potential or fell by the wayside. On the other hand, I don't know anyone who's worked with Steve and come on here and said, "Well, that was a waste of money [or time]".

A good source to go to is Jim Booth ("JBooth"). He used to be a certified Epstein instructor and knows him well, but also is completely conversant with Steve's system. So, I think he can give you a good comparison of the two systems. Jim works with players at all levels of youth ball and has a really good sense of what works. Go ahead and PM him and say I sent ya.

UM

[swingbuster]

In Epsteins program he suggest that you stride to balance , block with a 45 dgree front foot, and then tilt your shoulders to line up your flat hands on the pitch plane.

Between the stride / rotation into block, more rotation AND the lateral tilt of the shoulders and the bat starting from a fairly vertical position there is a lot of separation created in the swing.

The conversion of the drop and tilt to immediate rotary power is quite evident.

In real terms, I would be surprised if there is really another way to get that done as I review clips in an understandable way for kids.

The lateral tilt of the shoulders projects the barrel at GO! in all great players . You will rarely see level shoulders at launch in MLB players. You decide

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=50819&page=4

NEWSFLASH..the lateral shoulder tilt helps with BAT DRAG


IT is a great observation and a useful tool.

What is the STATED PCR equivalent of the lateral shoulder tilt and is there one and how is that reconciled?? Never heard Nyman mention it ; don't know about E-H

Could Steve have initiated and executed the one arm swing without the lateral tilt that I see...?

I don't think you guys know what your talking about concerning Epstein and I don't think you SEE what he does at all concerning the core move.

I would be surprised if Booth has denounced all of the Epstein principles. If so I would be really interested in what he removed as fact and inserted as useful

I have had some good hitters get their first move at launch somewhat "muddled". Something was missing. I would say when your front side firms up think " shoulder tilt"......bam! The sequence comes back and the hands stay back and whip on the ball. They were not interested in kinesiology and physics they wanted to know a move that would get their swing back

Lets don't throw Mike out just yet. I would suggest further study and observation of the core move

we don't know how many others didn't reach their full potential or fell by the wayside

THat number would be 8 million minus the 600 MLB players and includes the pupils of all the other instructors too. What about the LL guys that hit 12 HRs per year and will never forget that experience? For them let me say " Thanks Mike, sorry about these guys as they do not know what they are talking about"

[Ursa Major]

SwingB, I did not intend to criticize Epstein, as I have not studied his system as I have Steve's. I have heard criticisms of some of his advice from people I trust and the criticism seems valid. I was just advising folks that it's not the sheer number of people helped that is as important as the percentage of those who've gone to that source and come away satisfied. Steve has a very high satisfaction ratio. And, I think on issues like the lateral shoulder tilt, Steve probably wouldn't take issue with the concept as you've attributed it to Epstein.

And, I too "would be surprised if Booth has denounced all of the Epstein principles." I mentioned his name as someone conversant with that system, that's all. From my conversations with Jim, I think he has tremendous personal respect for Epstein and probably agrees with most of what Epstein teaches. Heck, I think simply for taking the lead and saying, "Why don't we teach what we see?" and freeing up many of us from the dead-end route of "take the hands straight to the ball", Epstein goes straight to the hitting guru hall of fame.

[swingbuster]

UM,

I just know of the kids playing out of the Certified Epstein Instructors programs across the country and they lead their leagues as a rule.

Sheer numbers must be addressed as the sheer numbers playing are huge. SO Mike, through certifying instructors, has a big outreach program. I feel that a 4 day program in CO with Mike makes for better coaches than a Dad buying a DVD. My point is that he makes an effort to get the best info interpreted correctly by guys willing to take the personal time, energy and money to educate themselves.

That would be a good model for any instructor

The complains you read are filtered through a prism of contempt usually and coming from people with a poor understanding of his process and many that have not used it. By process, I mean how do you start the journey and learn the core power move.

BUT , I still have the same question and this is my main point.

How can a player release the torque without keeping the head over the belt buckle to foot plant and THEN tilting the shoulders at GO.

There must be a building up of force and a sudden release.

What is the mechanism of sudden release in the Nyman model? Epstein has clearly shown where it is in MLB players.

If you take nothing else from him ; I strongly urge you and anyone else to study and evaluate that important concept. It will help you coaching kids to see this IMO,,,it has helped me

[Mark H]

Heck, I think simply for taking the lead and saying, "Why don't we teach what we see?" and freeing up many of us from the dead-end route of "take the hands straight to the ball", Epstein goes straight to the hitting guru hall of fame.

Yes, he deserves large credit as a pioneer.

[Mark H]

UM,

I just know of the kids playing out of the Certified Epstein Instructors programs across the country and they lead their leagues as a rule.



He WILL help most kids. Depending on your gifts and goals, that might be just fine.

[TwinEngine]

Englishbey helps most of those girl softball players too.

[Mark H]

Yes he does. He's helped a lot of people.

[bbjunkie]

Yes he does. He's helped a lot of people.
I know a couple kids he has helped a lot, and a few coaches.

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: How can a player release the torque without keeping the head over the belt buckle to foot plant and THEN tilting the shoulders at GO.

There must be a building up of force and a sudden release.

What is the mechanism of sudden release in the Nyman model?Well, I'm not going to go back through my Nyman videos (his self-made ones downloaded from his old site -- NOT the $500 pro version) to see what Nyman was teaching. Just watching Nyman swing the bat is enough to keep you awake at night. :eek:

But, as far as Steve goes, I don't think that staying balanced and then turning the shoulders is inconsistent with his teachings. I assume that's what you mean by "tilting the shoulders". Or are you talking about "tall to fall"?

On the concept of "building up of force and a sudden release", I think Steve has a very sophisticated view of using the lower body and middle to load up and release. What I see as most successful in 11-12 y/o ball is a quick load and unload with the front hip and inner front thigh. It's often hard to detect, but if it's there, it makes a big difference.

TwinEngine said: Englishbey helps most of those girl softball players too.I'm not sure what THAT is supposed to mean, but for my purposes (i.e., dealing with kids without a lot of upper body strength), I think there's a lot of cross-transfer between coaching girls and coaching pre-teen boys. The fact that Steve appears to be successful with teenage girl softball players tells me something. But, I defer to Scott ("SSarge") on Steve's prowess with girls. ... Uh, let me re-phrase that.... :ughh

[swingbuster]

But, as far as Steve goes, I don't think that staying balanced and then turning the shoulders is inconsistent with his teachings. I assume that's what you mean by "tilting the shoulders". Or are you talking about "tall to fall"?

I am talking about right at foot plant the next move you see the upper body do as the hips turn is tilt away from the pitcher sharply. THat is the upper body GO signal that unleashes the torque.

[Mark H]

Seriously? Perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you saying the upper torso takes a sharp tilt back right at foot plant or are you saying the torso angle is developed during momentum development?

[TwinEngine]

ABSOLUTELY.

You see that move in virutally every mlb player.

And, it's very sloppy and inefficient to try to rotate your shoulders after you've done that.

In fact, if you don't do that to launch your swing, it suffers from slop.

Hmmmmm.

[TwinEngine]

Got to eliminate the "hard right" or "hard left".

Mandatory.

Got to direct the energy into the ball instead of the dugout.

Only way to do that is lateral tilt.

[TwinEngine]

That damn video just keeps getting in the way of the Hansen Plea.

[Mark H]

What video?

[TwinEngine]

Seriously? Perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you saying the upper torso takes a sharp tilt back right at foot plant or are you saying the torso angle is developed during momentum development?

Dancing With the Star....I mean PCR'ers.:D

You tell us which one is right, Mark H.

In your own words..........are there any?

[MSandman]

I am talking about right at foot plant the next move you see the upper body do as the hips turn is tilt away from the pitcher sharply. THat is the upper body GO signal that unleashes the torque.

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/ARod%20and%20Bonds%20-%20launch.gif

I see the rear shoulder/elbow drop, but I don't see the upper body tilt. :confused:

[MSandman]

Here are some more. I'm having trouble finding any clips of hitters who tilt their upper body at launch. Unless by "upper body" you mean "the shoulders"???

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Pujols%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Tejada%20-%20launch.gif
http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Bonds%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Beltran%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Ortiz%20-%20launch.gif

I'm wondering... if you launch the swing from the proper posture, is the rear shoulder/elbow almost a "no-teach"?

[AcidLake]

I don't know if the argument on tilting is over yet, but here's an interesting read from Mike Epstein of why we should tilt:

http://mikeepsteinhitting.com/extra/askmike36.pdf

[MSandman]

Mike's article IS a good read. Thank you.

But it's a case, IMO, of a good message not being accurately portrayed by the choice of video frame. In Mike's article, he makes a good point about the shoulders tilting, but referring to this as "upper body tilt" is misleading, IMO, perhaps because I think of "hips to shoulders" as "upper body".

Also, WHEN Mike says it occurs is more accurately represented, IMO, by the images I posted above than of the still he used of Griffey in his article. Griffey's clearly been "on his front foot" longer than any of the above hitters. The bat is already pointing towards the catcher, as opposed to the others where it's more upright.

And the camera angle is not truly perpendicular to Griffey's chest. I'll bet the axis he was on at first frame of foot plant was the same as he's on now.

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Epstein%20on%20tilting.jpg

So, yes, I think the shoulders do tilt when the swing launches at foot plant, but the front side of the torso remains vertical, which means the shoulders are moving somewhat "independent" of the waist/hips. I would think of "upper body tilt" as "from the waist up to shoulders tilted on a line".

Again, thanks for the article.

[LClifton]

So, yes, I think the shoulders do tilt when the swing launches at foot plant, but the front side of the torso remains vertical, which means the shoulders are moving somewhat "independent" of the waist/hips. I would think of "upper body tilt" as "from the waist up to shoulders tilted on a line".
Good points Mike.

[Mark H]

Richard,

I don't know if you are misunderstanding scap loading and unloading or what but it just seems to incoherent venom to me.

[LClifton]

Mark do you see the shoulder tilting as a result of scap load and unload?

[Mark H]

Loren,

Honestly? I see babbling incoherency all through this. Now if that sounds harsh, consider I am just saying you and Twin make no sense and demonstrate little understanding. That seems not nearly as offensive as Richard saying Steve and others know better and are intentionally leading kids astray. Does that about sum it up Richard?

[Mark H]

Speak clearly. Are you saying Steve is intentionally teaching things he knows are wrong? Is that what you are saying?

[LClifton]

Mark can the scaps tilt and that creates the shoulder tilt?

[Mark H]

Sandman's got you in a trap Mark.

What? That's just spectacular. He said he didn't see the sharp tilt back at footplant which of course is true. Your posts consist of venomous attacks and continually declaring victory. Does anyone on here think reasoned discourse is possible with this man?

[LClifton]

Loren,

Honestly? I see babbling incoherency all through this. Now if that sounds harsh, consider I am just saying you and Twin make no sense and demonstrate little understanding. That seems not nearly as offensive as Richard saying Steve and others know better and are intentionally leading kids astray. Does that about sum it up Richard?
So you do see the shoulders tilt or you don't? In order to win the prize for saving the world you must compare to video of the best. Do they tilt?

Rather than making a simple (literally simple) statement that says I babble and demonstrate little understanding, show me a post that exhibits the babble and lack of understanding ---- we can talk about it. It will help me get to your high state of understanding so I too can judge incoherency.

Go ahead son.

[LClifton]

Tilting Mark? Just yes or no. No babbling or demonstrating lack of understanding, just yes or no.
Then I will bother you no more, ever about a thing.
http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Pujols%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Tejada%20-%20launch.gif
http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Bonds%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Beltran%20-%20launch.gif http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Ortiz%20-%20launch.gif

[LClifton]

Epstein or Englishbey?
Epstein for several reasons.
Epstein is a solid stable guy.
The material is proven.
The cost is reasonable.
The video is first rate.
The integrity is extremely high.
The results are proven.
The website is open where you can preview what your are going to buy.
The man is a class act.
He worked alongside and was endorsed by, arguably, the greatest hitter ever.

[swingbuster]

Epstein said

Stride head over belt buckle to a balanced position

Land the foot 45 degrees

Tilt the shoulders and turn with the hands flat

Get on plane and get inside the ball

He said HOW YOU GET TO THE TORQUE POSITION WAS STYLE

People say that he can take you only so far. WHat are those guys doing beside what he said?

If you cannot understand and do those steps I cannot imagine that you will ever get it

See the above clips and decide if that is what they do ...Pretty simple

Maybe there is a reason Epstein and the Certified Instructors still use the HBH and Nyman did not. They get it. They want the foot down at 45 and the sudden release from shoulder tilt and get inside balls to CF. They teach core mechanics of MLB players.

It took two years to get back to this point in understanding , ,,,phew.....exhausting

AND FOR THE RECORD...I am quite sure that Steve understands that shoulder tilt links the arms to the turning trunk preventing arm and distal segment driven swings at impact.

[4for4]

Are you saying the upper torso takes a sharp tilt back right at foot plant or are you saying the torso angle is developed during momentum development?

Good question Mark. It's a poor description (sharp tilt way from pitcher) of what's going on in the swing. There is no sharp tilt back away from the pitcher.

Here is what Epstein teaches. This comes from his book:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/forums/epstein-young.jpg

This shows a poor understanding of the swing. This is a pretty typical example of what an Epstein hitter looks like:

· Upright bug squishing regressive spinners
· Setting the swing plane by hinging the rear knee/rearward teeter-totter
· External rotation of the back shoulder aka slotting the elbow
· Counter-rotation

and this example is of the "line drive" hitter. These poor tendencies are even worse for the so-called power hitters that work through his system.

He has three drills. The numbers drill, torque drill and enforcer. The enforcer drill is the worst drill of the series IMO. In any case, they are drills that will not get you on the road to the high level pattern.

Can players get better using Epstein? Sure. But it depends on where they are coming from. He's right in that the swing down to the ball "linear" type mechanics aren't high level. So players coming from that background, and there are a lot of them, will improve. I saw some of this type improvement when I was using this system. But there is a ceiling and kids that are really serious about the game will hit it pretty young as pitching gets better.

[4for4]

AND FOR THE RECORD...I am quite sure that Steve understands that shoulder tilt links the arms to the turning trunk preventing arm and distal segment driven swings at impact.

What makes you quite sure?

[swingbuster]

.And what I would argue [well actually assert in this case] is that this alignment is a function of the "en bloc" nature of the torso [upper /lower trunk ] and how the arms/bat are being "set-up " to quickly and effciently link to the "tilted" gyroscopic motion[force/momentum ] of the entire pelvic to shoulders region .

Shoulder tilt 4X4


steve

We are all teaching very close to the same thing 4 BY. IT is just fun to fight about it

I would add that Epstein has said this a long time and how the tilt aligns the flat hands and does a good job of striding to BALANCE before the tilt. The hip rotation beginning perpendicular to the ground BEFORE the tilt in milli -seconds is an important postural concept IMO

We get it

[4for4]

.

We are all teaching very close to the same thing 4 BY. IT is just fun to fight about it

What you and Steve are saying is very different. There is no sharp tilt away from the pitcher and the MLB clips show that, IMO. Steve demonstrates what this move is and how to think about and do it on his DVD and on his website.

Hinging with all the weight on the back leg to set plane is not supported by MLB video. Counter-rotation is not supported by video.

The bottom line for me is that you and he are not saying the same thing. Perhaps you are thinking about the same way. If that's the case, I think you should be a bit more careful in how you communicate it, especially for those that are new to the site.

[swingbuster]

Hinging with all the weight on the back leg to set plane is not supported by MLB video.

Where did he say that? I thought he said " stride to balance" and where is balance?

I don't think Steve and I said different things 4BY concerning TILT

What you and Steve are saying is very different

I would agree that Steve would never agree that anyone ever paraphrased him correctly. You can bet the ranch on that

[4for4]

Where did he say that? I thought he said " stride to balance" and where is balance?

His DVD. That's what he shows and says:

Epstein (paraphrasing)

"Hinging the rear knee allows the player to position the body to adjust swing plane to the plane of the pitch. Weight shifts rearward. Weight is over inside of back thigh."

I don't think Steve and I said different things 4BY concerning TILT

Well this:


And what I would argue [well actually assert in this case] is that this alignment is a function of the "en bloc" nature of the torso [upper /lower trunk ] and how the arms/bat are being "set-up " to quickly and effciently link to the "tilted" gyroscopic motion[force/momentum ] of the entire pelvic to shoulders region .

And this:

I am talking about right at foot plant the next move you see the upper body do as the hips turn is tilt away from the pitcher sharply. THat is the upper body GO signal that unleashes the torque.

seem to be worlds apart. I'll take your word for it that you really mean what Steve is saying is correct.

[swingbuster]

I'll take your word for it that you really mean what Steve is saying is correct.

Clinton " I never had sex with that women"

Bush " Read my lips; no new taxes"

The Posse a.k.a THE FIRM

[4for4]

Clinton " I never had sex with that women"

Bush " Read my lips; no new taxes"

The Posse a.k.a THE FIRM

Donny -- people might take you more seriously if you weren't posting by proxy for TeachermanJoeBadIdeaLinearTwinEnginerShardInfoPimp MartiniBluntInstrument. He's not here anymore and no one takes him seriously.

[LClifton]

Originally Posted by Englishbey
And what I would argue [well actually assert in this case] is that this alignment is a function of the "en bloc" nature of the torso [upper /lower trunk ] and how the arms/bat are being "set-up " to quickly and effciently link to the "tilted" gyroscopic motion[force/momentum ] of the entire pelvic to shoulders region .
Was this comment accompanied by a clip?

[AcidLake]

I think what I see in the above gif clips is that all hitters make a good downward movement (as Epstein says as 'tilt') by bending their back legs while starting the swing. In the article that I posted the link of ("The Perfect Swing" by Epstein), Epstein describes of tilt that 'The hinging of the rear knee is the key to this process!' He also mentions tilting will bring good 'weathervaning'-which means 'an oscillating movement (up/down) of the lead elbow and works in a narrow "window".'


If you wanna see the article again here's a link:
http://mikeepsteinhitting.com/extra/askmike36.pdf

EDIT: If you also see the page 6 of the article, he also shows a picture of hitter over-hinging. Does anyone think that the picture resembles D and E of that young boy's swing above?

[Mark H]

Tilting Mark? Just yes or no.

What kind of tilting? Are you asking if most hitters set an axis of rotation tilted slightly away from the pitcher? Sure. See Dixon for the particulars. Are you asking if hitters tilt over the plate depending on pitch location? Sure. See Siggy's analysis page and his clips.
Then I will bother you no more, ever about a thing.


You're not bothering me. From what you said, I apparently did something to bother you in the past.

[Mark H]

Epstein or Englishbey?
Epstein for several reasons.
Epstein is a solid stable guy.
The material is proven.
The cost is reasonable.
The video is first rate.
The integrity is extremely high.
The results are proven.
The website is open where you can preview what your are going to buy.
The man is a class act.
He worked alongside and was endorsed by, arguably, the greatest hitter ever.

Well, Mike would beat a lot of people as an instructor and I used to push his stuff hard. But I've moved on for reasons mentioned many times. Opinons vary and that's fine.

[mike28nc]

Well, it is great to see so many people I know from the other web sites.

I have the Epstein videos and have been on Steve's site (not viewed his dvd's).
In the past I was all Mankin. I think (IMO) they all describe High Level Swing. Some are better at parts then others. Some say this or that is a no teach. But it is desired result so you have to know how to teach it. Right now. I would say Epstein out of the two you have listed. But that doest mean he has all the answers or you have to follow with no questions/other drills from someone else.

The best advise I could give is video tape what your swing is now. Try Epstein and then Video tape again. There is some very good advise on many boards. Sometimes if you mentioned Steve E hitting you get reaction to the name (STEVE E / PCR) not the person that is swinging the bat. Each hitting guru thinks they have the answers or the quick fix. I have found more from looking at many different hitting instructors and taking what I feel works best. For me working with 12 kids this seems the best so far.


1st post here. I hope that helps.

Mike

[Ursa Major]

LClifton said:
Epstein or Englishbey?
Epstein for several reasons.
Epstein is a solid stable guy. What does that have to with anything? And Steve shoots up minimarts? That's just silly.
The material is proven.
The results are proven.How do these points differ from one another? Anyway, both men have had significant success across a range of hitters. Hey, we're supposed to be a bit more sophisticated than soccer moms looking to see four out of five doctors recommend. Let's examine the merits of their instruction.
The cost is reasonable. Epstein's series IS cheaper. Mankin's is cheaper yet. But that didn't get me where I needed to get.
The video is first rate. So is my copy of Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone. It didn't help my swing though. Who cares?
The integrity is extremely high. What'n'ell does THAT mean? Steve takes bribes from bat manufacturers? What? Hey, Steve tries to talk people out of buying the DVD or engaging his services if he doesn't think the targeted hitter is ready or committed enough to learn what he's teaching.
The website is open where you can preview what your are going to buy.I think if you do a search under Steve's screen name here, you'll find that he has in the aggregate delivered a master's class worth of free hitting instruction in his posts. Epstein's posts in his forum is mostly just chat or self-congratulation.
The man is a class act.Good to know. And this differentiates him from Englishbey .... how?
He worked alongside and was endorsed by, arguably, the greatest hitter ever.I think if you read Williams' quote that overwhelms the website's first page, you'll realize it comes down to (a) the guy played for me for three years, (b) we still chat, and (c) he's as good as anyone else out there at understanding what hitting's about.

Loren, I don't know you, but you've made some valuable points and contributions to this and other sites while I've been tracking them. So what makes you want to trash Englishbey by implication with points that I think you're smart enough to realize don't really display much about the merits of the two men's hitting instruction? It sounds like there's something else going on.

[MarkL]

DR. Yeager's DVDs are far and away the most ground-breaking and informative materiel on the high-level swing. He has a new training facility.. http://www.dryeagersbaseball.com/index.asp

[swingbuster]

'The hinging of the rear knee is the key to this process!'

I see all knees hinged in rotational hitters

You see rear leg extenzion in linear hitters

I see Bonds leg hinged and Steve's leg hinged

So Epstein doesn't get the hinged leg thingy,,,,,laugh!

[MSandman]

I think what I see in the above gif clips is that all hitters make a good downward movement (as Epstein says as 'tilt') by bending their back legs while starting the swing.

Hmmm... from what I can see/do, the bending of the rear knee does coincide w/ the tilting of the shoulders. But I know I can stand up in my post-stride position and bend my rear leg without tilting my shoulders too. So is the bending really causing the tilting? (doubtful)

[jbooth]

I think what I see in the above gif clips is that all hitters make a good downward movement (as Epstein says as 'tilt') by bending their back legs while starting the swing. In the article that I posted the link of ("The Perfect Swing" by Epstein), Epstein describes of tilt that 'The hinging of the rear knee is the key to this process!' He also mentions tilting will bring good 'weathervaning'-which means 'an oscillating movement (up/down) of the lead elbow and works in a narrow "window".'


If you wanna see the article again here's a link:
http://mikeepsteinhitting.com/extra/askmike36.pdf

EDIT: If you also see the page 6 of the article, he also shows a picture of hitter over-hinging. Does anyone think that the picture resembles D and E of that young boy's swing above?

The back leg must turn while bent in order to keep your head at specific height as you rotate. If the leg straightens your head raises, if it bends and have weight on it, your head lowers, it has little to do with the tilt angle of the axis of rotation. The front leg braces and staightens to prevent lunging the torso forward, and to finish the hip rotation.

[swingbuster]

The front leg braces and staightens to prevent lunging the torso forward, and to finish the hip rotation.

Jim

I think the lead leg weight block occurs over the bent lead knee and negative shoulder tilt and lead leg extension is finishing the hip turn

Do you still believe the Shoulder tilt is upper body GO as epstein shows.

Your students seem to exhibit that well Is it a teach for you

[4for4]

I see all knees hinged in rotational hitters

You see rear leg extenzion in linear hitters

I see Bonds leg hinged and Steve's leg hinged

So Epstein doesn't get the hinged leg thingy,,,,,laugh!

Nah. Epstein wants the weight to go backwards with the knee hinging to get on plane. Please show us all a video of an MLB player that lerches backwards with the weight on the back leg. Eptein has it wrong so does tom.

[AcidLake]

Sorry, but another question: What do you guys think of Dr. Yeager's DVD's? I don't think he has played baseball in his career, but it looks like he can make a point on kinesiology on swing

Not considering his DVD, but asking questions how his DVD's are

EDIT: Disregard everything I wrote above. Boy, am I a sucker for new things I see

[swingbuster]

................

[MarkL]

EDIT: Disregard everything I wrote above. Boy, am I a sucker for new things I see

What bad info have you been given on Dr. Yeager's materiel?????

Yeager's is the best info avail. on how MLBers do it....PCR crew won't say so (because he punched holes in Nyman's theories), but many of the vets will agree--as good as it gets...

[swingbuster]

Must have gotten a PM:atthepc

Yeagers stuff is great. I highly recommend Chris Yeager.

You should see the chop job Nyman did on it a while back for no reason except he cannot coexist. That is after he took Mankin to task about THT and just got that shoved up his " coal chute"

Nyman writes:

What I find interesting is that for someone (Yaeger) who allegedly has a biomechanical background (biomechanics implying this person knowing something about physics), why Yaeger would make such a big deal about COP (Center OF Pressure) or should I say attach such importance on it.


Nyman talking down to somebody about using confusing terms. OMG!

then Nyman wrote this right underneath it... I am serious....I could not make this up

Emergence is...

1) ...what parts of a system do together that they would not do by themselves: collective behavior.
2) ...what a system does by virtue of its relationship to its environment that it would not do by itself: e.g. its function.
3) ...the act or process of becoming an emergent system.

According to (1) emergence refers to understanding how collective properties arise from the properties of parts. More generally, it refers to how behavior at a larger scale of the system arises from the detailed structure, behavior and relationships on a finer scale. In the extreme, it is about how macroscopic behavior arises from microscopic behavior.

He is a piece of work man :clapping

All that and they cannot understand "drop and tilt"

[AcidLake]

Thank you for your explanation, swingbuster. Oh yes, I searched this forum, and noticed that there was a feud between Yeager and Nyman.

I actually decided what to choose of between Epstein or Englishbey.

Well, I'm not thinking of revealing of my decision right now though..:o Oh well, I decided to go with Englishbey's because it sounds like he'd explain the biomechanical aspects of swing well enough to explain how the muscle works to react to hit 95mph fastballs.

Thanks to everyone (whether they recommended Englishbey or Epstein) who has replied with their best opinions especially for those who argued about tilting thoughtfully. :clapping :clapping :clapping

[swingbuster]

Oh well, I decided to go with Englishbey's because it sounds like he'd explain the biomechanical aspects of swing well enough to explain how the muscle works to react to hit 95mph fastballs.

Good luck

The decision might be good for you but the reason you chose it is astounding

You really don't need to start with the pregame meal. You are coaching children I presume and not the
Med School Mens Fastpitch team

Thank you for your explanation, swingbuster. Oh yes, I searched this forum, and noticed that there was a feud between Yeager and Nyman.

Chris doesn't feud...that is why I like him. He was attacked for no reason like everybody else

[AcidLake]

You really don't need to start with the pregame meal. You are coaching children I presume and not the
Med School Mens Fastpitch team
I don't coach anything... I'm a high schooler actually. Looking to learn a good swing here

[LClifton]

I think if you do a search under Steve's screen name here, you'll find that he has in the aggregate delivered a master's class worth of free hitting instruction in his posts. Epstein's posts in his forum is mostly just chat or self-congratulation.
I respect your opinion.
As I read some of the posts here, both current and past, I will keep in mind the "self congratulation" part you mention.
Good to know. And this differentiates him from Englishbey .... how?
I think if you read Williams' quote that overwhelms the website's first page, you'll realize it comes down to (a) the guy played for me for three years, (b) we still chat, and (c) he's as good as anyone else out there at understanding what hitting's about.
Are you an attorney?
Even if you are not, you would understand a simple statement(s).
You would indeed understand that the "differentiation" was asserted by you.
I posted my opinion of Epstein and why, nothing more. Clear and concise, and you read something into it.
Loren, I don't know you, but you've made some valuable points and contributions to this and other sites while I've been tracking them.
Thank you.
So what makes you want to trash Englishbey by implication with points that I think you're smart enough to realize don't really display much about the merits of the two men's hitting instruction?
I'm not really smart enough UM,
(and a couple from the list do describe the merits of his hitting instruction)
But I know this:
When my nose itches I scratch it,
When I posted the list of things regarding Epstein that is what I meant,,,nothing more.
You implied that I implied something by my posting.
The implication is by the author of the repsonse to my post ----
which would be you.

Acid Lake will decide for himself regardless (IMO) of what I say.

[ShawnB]

All things aside there is something to be learned from everybody. Choosing between just two different programs is fine. But, If you are a serious student of the game you study hitting all the time. That means more then just one program and looking at ML swings as well as youth swing.

I would choose Steve over Epstein, because Epstein is bias on his system and he thinks he invented rotation. Epstein incorrectly explains the swing plane and how rotation is developed or initiated. Epstein and Yeager both believe that the stride initiates rotation (Epstein the front foot/leg). Yeager believing in ground reaction forces and Epstein in the same boat using the heel drop/heel up sequence. There is no such force except hip rotation, that causes hip rotation. At least Yeager has it right the back heel comes up first, but he believes in a false force or a force that can magically rotate your hips for you.

Now that I think about it pretty funny that a guy who claims to have invented rotation doesn't know how it works, LOL. Funny stuff. And Yeager is just as bad saying your using muscled up effort if try to rotate the hips, as if there was some magical force caused from the ground that will rotate your hips for you.

You see, the more you learn the more you will understand faults in believe systems. You will learn some things and learn what doesn't work and what does work.
----------------------------
Now about this tilting. 4for4 is correct. Epstein believes that the tilt sets the swing plane. The only problem is he is looking at the wrong tilt. It's not tilting backwards and there are few swings/hitter who tilt backwards, that is old school reverse C, don't come forward garbage. And that is exactly what Epstein students are doing the reverse C, weight back, leaning back. He has just repackaged the reverse C garbage and re sold it. It just goes to show you there is nothing new, just re learned and unlearned stuff repackaged.

[jbooth]

All things aside there is something to be learned from everybody. Choosing between just two different programs is fine. But, If you are a serious student of the game you study hitting all the time. That means more then just one program and looking at ML swings as well as youth swing.

I would choose Steve over Epstein, because Epstein is bias on his system and he thinks he invented rotation. Epstein incorrectly explains the swing plane and how rotation is developed or initiated. Epstein and Yeager both believe that the stride initiates rotation (Epstein the front foot/leg). Yeager believing in ground reaction forces and Epstein in the same boat using the heel drop/heel up sequence. There is no such force except hip rotation, that causes hip rotation. At least Yeager has it right the back heel comes up first, but he believes in a false force or a force that can magically rotate your hips for you.

Now that I think about it pretty funny that a guy who claims to have invented rotation doesn't know how it works, LOL. Funny stuff. And Yeager is just as bad saying your using muscled up effort if try to rotate the hips, as if there was some magical force caused from the ground that will rotate your hips for you.

You see, the more you learn the more you will understand faults in believe systems. You will learn some things and learn what doesn't work and what does work.
----------------------------
Now about this tilting. 4for4 is correct. Epstein believes that the tilt sets the swing plane. The only problem is he is looking at the wrong tilt. It's not tilting backwards and there are few swings/hitter who tilt backwards, that is old school reverse C, don't come forward garbage. And that is exactly what Epstein students are doing the reverse C, weight back, leaning back. He has just repackaged the reverse C garbage and re sold it. It just goes to show you there is nothing new, just re learned and unlearned stuff repackaged.

Yeager isn't wrong. You don't understand how it works. Epstein is definitely wrong, but if you don't think that the muscles that connect the bottom of the pelvis, to the leg bones, leverage the leg bones between the ground and the bottom of the pelvis to make the pelvis rotate, you are simply ignorant of the anatomy and physics involved, which is what kinesiology is, and Yeager has a PhD in it. I don't have a PhD, but I understand enough and have studied it enough most of my life, to understand that the hip turn works the way Yeager says it does. I've tried to explain it in several threads on this site, but I guess some people just believe what they want to believe.

The magical force is Newton's laws of physics. YOU are the one believing in some magical force in the middle that makes the pelvis turn.

[swingbuster]

try to block weight and tilt the shoulder away from the pitcher without lead leg extension. You cannot

get lead leg extension before the tilt what happens to the hips before the barrel comes around.

Now what is driving the swing?

You can move from the middle , swing your arms and never go into lead leg extension if you like



Think about it. You might get it in time. Now go back and watch Bonds smoke Steve to the zone again and see if you can see it

Epstein believes that the tilt sets the swing plane.

It does much more than that .....you are missing the core power move again

[jbooth]

try to block weight and tilt the shoulder away from the pitcher without lead leg extension. You cannot

get lead leg extension before the tilt what happens to the hips before the barrel comes around.

Now what is driving the swing?

You can move from the middle , swing your arms and never go into lead leg extension if you like



Think about it. You might get it in time. Now go back and watch Bonds smoke Steve to the zone again and see if you can see it



It does much more than that .....you are missing the core power move again

Are you replying to me? If you are, I have no idea what you're describing or what it relates to. Try again, if you wish.

[Drill]

I am so mixed up


tilt, angle, core power. What do you tell a 10 year old

[dougmac]

Tell the 10 year old to sit down and watch about 15 MLB games on TV. Then go outside with him and toss some balls to him and let him swing. Then ask him if he likes to watch the games on TV. If the answer is yes, keep allowing him to watch games on TV and keep tossing him balls to hit. If the answer is no, then have him take up another sport. As far as instruction goes, if you are not real good at it, don't say anything, just keep tossing the balls and have him watch the big leaguers.

[ShawnB]

Yeager isn't wrong. You don't understand how it works. Epstein is definitely wrong, but if you don't think that the muscles that connect the bottom of the pelvis, to the leg bones, leverage the leg bones between the ground and the bottom of the pelvis to make the pelvis rotate, you are simply ignorant of the anatomy and physics involved, which is what kinesiology is, and Yeager has a PhD in it. I don't have a PhD, but I understand enough and have studied it enough most of my life, to understand that the hip turn works the way Yeager says it does. I've tried to explain it in several threads on this site, but I guess some people just believe what they want to believe.

The magical force is Newton's laws of physics. YOU are the one believing in some magical force in the middle that makes the pelvis turn.

I think I know how the body works. Yeager never says the hips use the legs for leverage. What he says is there is a push followed by a block creating ground reaction forces that cause rotation. He even goes as far as to say there should be no attempt to cause rotation with the back leg, that the push should be in a straight line force. He also says that you should relax the hips and the ground reaction forces created by the legs will cause hip rotation. He thinks it's all about the legs acting on the hips.

You can push and block until the cows come home, it will never cause rotation. Sounds more like fastpitch pitching mechanics. The only way to cause rotation with the legs is to tuirn them and the feet. But' like I said he is even against that notion.

Here's one for Einstein, if baseball and hitting are even rometly close, then how in the heck does a pitching rotate the hips in mid air, prior to the block. After all I do recall Yeager saying the kinetic link worked the same for both. In his view of the kinetic link is that there are four phases, load/push block/push. So tell me how does a pitcher begibn rotation prior to the block?? CHew on that for awhile, haha.

He's the one pulling forces out of thin air, not me. I know how it works. It will be a different story know that he must work with younger players, no more teaching magical forces to player that already know how to rotate.

[Drill]

Tell the 10 year old to sit down and watch about 15 MLB games on TV. Then go outside with him and toss some balls to him and let him swing. Then ask him if he likes to watch the games on TV. If the answer is yes, keep allowing him to watch games on TV and keep tossing him balls to hit. If the answer is no, then have him take up another sport. As far as instruction goes, if you are not real good at it, don't say anything, just keep tossing the balls and have him watch the big leaguers.


OK so i tivo 15 MLB games and toss balls. Than what

[jbooth]

I think I know how the body works. Yeager never says the hips use the legs for leverage. What he says is there is a push followed by a block creating ground reaction forces that cause rotation. He even goes as far as to say there should be no attempt to cause rotation with the back leg, that the push should be in a straight line force. He also says that you should relax the hips and the ground reaction forces created by the legs will cause hip rotation. He thinks it's all about the legs acting on the hips.

Yep, and he's correct.

You can push and block until the cows come home, it will never cause rotation.

Sure it will.

So tell me how does a pitcher begin rotation prior to the block?? CHew on that for awhile, haha.

He pushes and uses the muscles that connect the leg and hip. The angles of the leg allow for the muscles to apply leverage to rotate in the air.

I agree it is a very complex organization of movements, but the basic principle is that the torso has weight and the Earth has weight and the leg bones are being squeezed inbetween. When the muscles that connect from multiple locations on the legs to multiple locations around the pelvis and spine, they work to use the legs a levers that twist the pelvic bone.

Hold a bar-bell above your head. Hold your shoulders still and let them represent the ground. Your arms are representing your legs and the bar is the bottom of the pelvic bone. Now, keep your shoulders still and twist the bar. Isn't the bar being moved by your arms? Isn't it being moved by your arm bones being levered by muscles, while the shoulders provide the support? Please point out any serious errors in this analogy, and/or analysis. What muscles above the bar, or within the bar, are making it move.

[MarkL]

ShawnB
What he (YEAGER)says is there is a push followed by a block creating ground reaction forces that cause rotation. He even goes as far as to say there should be no attempt to cause rotation with the back leg, that the push should be in a straight line force. He also says that you should relax the hips and the ground reaction forces created by the legs will cause hip rotation. He thinks it's all about the legs acting on the hips.

Um yea I'd say that's pretty much right.....And you will (hopefully) eventually come around to see it this way as scientists see it....

ShawnB--You can push and block until the cows come home, it will never cause rotation. Sounds more like fastpitch pitching mechanics.

Just curious---what do you think causes their (fastpitch) rotation??????

BTW---why do you think baseball pitchers throw harder off of a mound??




answer----increased Ground Reaction Forces



ShawnB---The only way to cause rotation with the legs is to tuirn them and the feet
exactly why you have no idea what you are doing.....


wow Booth---just saw your post as I previewed---could have just said ditto JIM!

[chesspirate]

I'd like to echo. Where does the rotation before/into footplant come from?

[jbooth]

I'd like to echo. Where does the rotation before/into footplant come from?

ONE MORE TIME. From muscles that connect the leg to the hip, and the leg is firmly planted on the ground which allows the muscle to contract between a firm foundation, (the leg), and the free weight (the torso.) Actually pretty simple to understand.

[Mark H]

I'd ask how the Cat turns in mid air and what MarkL and others think of Dixon but I think I'll just go to sleep instead. ;)

[chesspirate]

ONE MORE TIME. From muscles that connect the leg to the hip, and the leg is firmly planted on the ground which allows the muscle to contract between a firm foundation, (the leg), and the free weight (the torso.) Actually pretty simple to understand.

"ONE MORE TIME" Damn Jim, calm down.

The specifics of the english language lost in translation while writing...

Are you referencing the rear leg in your last post then? Because my question was about the hips rotation before the front froot plants.

I find it hard to rotate the hips with the 'block' from the front leg before the front leg is actually on the ground capable of 'blocking'.

Pros are "rotating into footplant".

So, specifically now, (and i don't need to cap all my letters to ask) what forces are initiating the rotation of the hips before the front foot plants?

If you are asserting that the rear leg 'push' has something to do with the hips rotating before the front leg 'blocks' i'd like to be enlightened. Honestly.

In all seriousness, i'm looking for a serious explanation, and i'd be open to any ideas presented that make sense. I gave Richard his chances with his second engine (i really wanted to know if there was anything out there) but every time i had a serious semi-deep question he thought i was attacking him, or he just answered by attacking me as a kool-aid drinker or having been brain washed, etc.

I just wanted to be really specific and get an answer that i could understand. And the same thing applies here.

I'd ask how the Cat turns in mid air and what MarkL and others think of Dixon but I think I'll just go to sleep instead kinda where i'm at.

[jbooth]

"ONE MORE TIME" Damn Jim, calm down.

The specifics of the english language lost in translation while writing...

Are you referencing the rear leg in your last post then? Because my question was about the hips rotation before the front froot plants.

I find it hard to rotate the hips with the 'block' from the front leg before the front leg is actually on the ground capable of 'blocking'.

Pros are "rotating into footplant".

So, specifically now, (and i don't need to cap all my letters to ask) what forces are initiating the rotation of the hips before the front foot plants?

If you are asserting that the rear leg 'push' has something to do with the hips rotating before the front leg 'blocks' i'd like to be enlightened. Honestly.

In all seriousness, i'm looking for a serious explanation, and i'd be open to any ideas presented that make sense. I gave Richard his chances with his second engine (i really wanted to know if there was anything out there) but every time i had a serious semi-deep question he thought i was attacking him, or he just answered by attacking me as a kool-aid drinker or having been brain washed, etc.

I just wanted to be really specific and get an answer that i could understand. And the same thing applies here.

kinda where i'm at.

The CAPS was not intended to be an angry response. It was frustration. I realize you seriously want to understand, and I am trying, and have tried in the past to explain it. I don't know how to get you to understand it. I'm caught between giving detailed physics and anatomy explanations, and trying to keep it in simple layman's terms.

And, the last thing I want is to be compared in any way, shape, or form, to that stupid idiot, with psychological problems, that was recently banned from here.

I'll try again tomorrow. My brain is worn out tonight. In the meantime take note of this; the leg bones can be set at many angles, and there are many muscles and they are connected to many different locations, so that the legs can move in many directions. And, the bones that move are the ones that have the least resistance, or force holding them. The back leg is on the ground, essentially connected to the Earth which has the greatest weight.

The rest of the body is free to be moved when a muscle that is indirectly connected to the ground, pulls against the free mass.

When you do a push-up, are muscles in your torso pulling you off the ground, or are the muscles in your arms pushing you away from the ground?

The muscles in the torso don't pull the torso, it's the muscles connected from the torso to the leg, and indirectly to the ground, that push the torso.

[ShawnB]

try to block weight and tilt the shoulder away from the pitcher without lead leg extension. You cannot

get lead leg extension before the tilt what happens to the hips before the barrel comes around.

Now what is driving the swing?

You can move from the middle , swing your arms and never go into lead leg extension if you like



Think about it. You might get it in time. Now go back and watch Bonds smoke Steve to the zone again and see if you can see it



It does much more than that .....you are missing the core power move again

Who the heck would want to even try to block and tilt the shoulders away from the pitcher. This is old, old school reverse C garbage. You are in a time warp going backwards.

[ShawnB]

You have got to be kidding me, you actually think that will cause rotation MarkL?

Show me. Prove it.

And by the way the legs don't move by themselves. It a function of the hips and surrounding muscles that move the legs. You ever hear of inverse kinetics, or is it inverse kinematics, don't really care. Inverse biomechanics work by moving the the proximal body part and then the distal follows. If I want to jump the pelvis and torso lowers and the legs are then loaded.

Anyways it really doesn't matter if your head is stuck in the sand. IF you want to believe in Yeager that's fine. I just know that isn't the way it works. I know this from trying and by teaching hitters. If you if you think it works the more power to you.

And you never answered my question, how the heck can a pitcher rotate in mid air without the push block/push? What is causing their rotation?

[swingbuster]

Who the heck would want to even try to block and tilt the shoulders away from the pitcher. This is old, old school reverse C garbage. You are in a time warp going backwards.

If your body axis is perpendicular to ground at tilt there is no reverse C, your rear toe will drag

The shoulders tilt and the lead elbow juts upwards and the rear clamps down at upper body GO

You might not ever see this....If not your kids will arm swing a lot

Check what I wrote against Bonds

[swingbuster]

And you never answered my question, how the heck can a pitcher rotate in mid air without the push block/push? What is causing their rotation?

They coiled into their back hip before push and begin uncoiling before block. They block and finish the hip coil by lead leg extension.

You are seeing Yeagers description as non flowing/ stiff/ choppy maybe.

He is just stating facts.

[LClifton]

Jim,

Is it possible that the hips can move (rotate) without assist from the legs?

If you load into your back leg (coil the hips) wouldn't that make is easier to NOT use the legs to rotate the hips? They could be turned while the lead leg is in the air during the stride, right? (similar to Mark H, cat example)

The next question for me is why would you want to do this without the assist of the legs, the ground force reactions?

Last one, using the legs or not using the legs (push, block--Yeager) which one is more powerful?

[Jake Patterson]

Is it possible that the hips can move (rotate) without assist from the legs?
How is this possible. The resistance we develop that allows for movement has to start on the ground and thus the legs, at least the back leg.

[LClifton]

How is this possible. The resistance we develop that allows for movement has to start on the ground and thus the legs, at least the back leg.
How is it that you can suspend yourself in the air, no feet on the ground, and still rotate your hips?

[LClifton]

How is this possible. The resistance we develop that allows for movement has to start on the ground and thus the legs, at least the back leg.

Agree Jake.
My point was in the last sentence. :)
Last one, using the legs or not using the legs (push, block--Yeager) which one is more powerful?

Which means I should have phrased my question more like,

Can one move the hips without a fairly major contribution of the legs, especially the rear leg.
If / Since you can indeed rotate the hips without contribution from the legs ----in the context of hitting---- why would you?

Or why would you not want a major contribution from the legs?

[Jake Patterson]

How is it that you can suspend yourself in the air, no feet on the ground, and still rotate your hips?
Isn't this the old how can a cat right itself in mid air arguement??

[Jake Patterson]

Agree Jake.
My point was in the last sentence. :)


Which means I should have phrased my question more like,

Can one move the hips without a fairly major contribution of the legs, especially the rear leg.
If / Since you can indeed rotate the hips without contribution from the legs ----in the context of hitting---- why would you?

Or why would you not want a major contribution from the legs?
I think we agree...

[GFK]

Tell the 10 year old to sit down and watch about 15 MLB games on TV. Then go outside with him and toss some balls to him and let him swing. Then ask him if he likes to watch the games on TV. If the answer is yes, keep allowing him to watch games on TV and keep tossing him balls to hit. If the answer is no, then have him take up another sport. As far as instruction goes, if you are not real good at it, don't say anything, just keep tossing the balls and have him watch the big leaguers.

This is actually pretty good advice from Doug. I would also suggest finding some slow motion shots and letting the kid watch those. I suspect the overwhelming majority of MLB hitters learned through emulation and "trial and error".

OK so i tivo 15 MLB games and toss balls. Than what

Learn what you can from watching the videos and study. Video the kid and synch it up to the slow motion video of the big boys. Show him the differences between him and the big boys. Pick out one of the major differences (identified flaws) and start working toward correcting the issue. If you want some help in addressing the identified flaws, go talk to Steve E.

You are the one that needs to do the homework and distill it down to a level suitable for your student hitter. A 10 YO is not going to wade through all this stuff. He just wants to hit.

[jbooth]

How is it that you can suspend yourself in the air, no feet on the ground, and still rotate your hips?

I've explained this before. Because you've reversed the foundation point. The hips now move from the arms connecting to the bar you are hanging from, which is firm, and the muscles that connect the top of the pelvis to the spine. Make you move.

Be a surgeon and remove both legs from a person. I mean remove the entire, intact, upper and lower legs, leaving empty sockets at the pelvic bone, remove his arms also. Now set this person on the ground and see how well he can rotate "from the middle."

The torso sits on top of the legs, and the legs manipulate the torso by appyling force between the ground and the torso, through the MANY muscles in the legs that connect the legs to the torso, and the two leg bones of each leg, to each other.

I'm going to follow Jake's advice from his "perspective" thread. Just turn your hips, and if you're not athletic enough to figure out which muscles to use, find a sport that doesn't require that movement. :p

I do know that over-thinking this can mess you up. Just turn and let your brain figure it out. You can't sense, or direct, the muscles needed because about 30 of them all fire during the movement. Some simultaneously and some in sequence, and some are just in the leg and some are in the torso, and some connect the two. It's way too complex to try and describe it. JUST DO IT. Make the torso turn, and don't just turn the legs. That should be the focus. Turn the torso, with all the forces you can gather, from all the sources your brain thinks it needs, including the legs. Don't ignore the legs, and likewise, don't just isolate on them. The move involves the legs AND the middle, not just one or the other.

I'm done with this topic, it's too frustrating for me. Just turn!

[swingbuster]

Put your bat back and turn into a heavy bag feeling the lead leg extension drive just ahead of the unhinge

Now relax the lead leg completely and turn the barrel into the bag with the middle.

Go figure again..... I want to play against the one legged team every game:clapping

Remember guys ...they looked up some abstract crap in a book or from google when they posted that stuff a few years ago. They took some well meaning work of some dude out of context and set out to make the obvious seem really wrong. THey did that with every body part if you think about it.

The shock and awe spread like "a rumor in church" and suddenly you were nobody if you thought you used your legs at all to hit a baseball. THe legs fell off , the shoulder became two scaps, the hips to the shoulders became the middle, THT and BHT were the work of the devil, there was no arm and hand action that was speakable, the foot got closed, tension was applied to the back scap, it was held in place, the hands were riding along , ....the world turned upside down

Waste of time discussion.

[Mark H]

Waste of time discussion.

That's true.

[swingbuster]

That's true.

Very little of it was true and it all started from an electrical engineer( or so he says) that never played sports in CT.

Wow..the power of the internet

[joof]

I agree that at present the discussion is a waste of time.

But understanding Dixon in terms of the movement of the elite athlete is very enlightening. It's based on using the core of the body. And I might add that ML hitting instructors use this idea.

joof

[LClifton]

Very little of it was true and it all started from an electrical engineer( or so he says) that never played sports in CT.

Wow..the power of the internet
Yup.

Don't say you use the legs---
Don't say you use the middle---
Just turn.
Get your biomechanics degree later.

Joof's right, Dixon is enlightening. (said sincerely Joof)

[swingbuster]

It's based on using the core of the body

And that is only possible working the hips against the shoulders.

The middle is a storage device for forces applied above and below it.

It is not a generator

[LClifton]

It's based on using the core of the body
And, like any other material there is some of it people will agree with and parts of it they will not.
Core stability is crucial.
Generating much significant speed--- solely from it, unlikely.

[MarkL]

boy the PCR "posse" has done a # on you.....

do have answers for these???

Just curious---what do you think causes their (fastpitch) rotation??????

BTW---why do you think baseball pitchers throw harder off of a mound??




answer----increased Ground Reaction Forces

ShawnB--your answers/explinations please???

[MarkL]

also--why do you need to stride to rotate from the middle???

[dannyboy]

The shock and awe spread like "a rumor in church" and suddenly you were nobody if you thought you used your legs at all to hit a baseball. THe legs fell off , the shoulder became two scaps, the hips to the shoulders became the middle, THT and BHT were the work of the devil, there was no arm and hand action that was speakable, the foot got closed, tension was applied to the back scap, it was held in place, the hands were riding along , ....the world turned upside down

Donny,

the best of you, that i have ever read.

[joof]

Swingbuster

And that is only possible working the hips against the shoulders.

The middle is a storage device for forces applied above and below it.

It is not a generator

The model you have only partially described(other components and associated dynamics) is powerful for understanding and execution of the swing.

joof

[Mark H]

Very little of it was true and it all started from an electrical engineer( or so he says) that never played sports in CT.

Wow..the power of the internet

So...you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you????

[swingbuster]

I was lost....you agreed with something I said....I knew something was wrong or had hidden meaning if I believed that.

I just froze on that pitch I guess :rolleyes:

[Nap]

And that is only possible working the hips against the shoulders.

The middle is a storage device for forces applied above and below it.

It is not a generator

This might be the best description of the function of the core I have heard on the site, I would put forth that it is a transmitter of forces generated above and bellow the core, because if that energy is stored to long it is lost in the form of heat.

Thus a crucial element that appears to define the productive hitter is the ability to have both the bat and hips in motion just prior to launch (a good trigger), overcoming inertia and not loosing energy in the form of heat (dead hands).

The difficult part of teaching the swing then, becomes assisting athletes in finding their appropriate trigger and timing.

[MarkL]

Shawn B boy the PCR "posse" has done a # on you.....

do have answers for these???

Just curious---what do you think causes their (fastpitch) rotation??????

_______________________________________________

BTW---why do you think baseball pitchers throw harder off of a mound??
answer----increased Ground Reaction Forces



ShawnB--your answers/explinations please???


ShawnB---no answers???? any PCR people care to help him out???/

[swingbuster]

The difficult part of teaching the swing then, becomes assisting athletes in finding their appropriate trigger and timing.

Nap,

I think " their trigger" is not as individualized as people think. I think there are a couple of standard mechanisms that can be seen in most HOF hitters

I think learning the simple leverage and physics of those mechanisms is more promising than believing that molecular biology is the answer.

[Jake Patterson]

Nap,

I think " their trigger" is not as individualized as people think. I think there are a couple of standard mechanisms that can be seen in most HOF hitters

I think learning the simple leverage and physics of those mechanisms is more promising than believing that molecular biology is the answer.

This would make for an interesting study at ASMI. Hook the body muscles up to sensors and then record their firing sequence as the hitter initiates the swing. It would first be interesting to see the sequence in which the muscles are activated and then see if it is different for different hitters.

[Mark H]

In my 30's and early 40's I seemed to have more time and energy for all this. Now, my answer to the whole thread is...read Dixon and Steve. Getting old or maybe recognizing who the audience is that I can help. Something. Wish I already had my ppl. Too far to drive 8 hours to watch a blow out this weekend. It's getting warmer outside. May all of you have an enjoyable season.

[swingbuster]

In my 30's and early 40's I seemed to have more time and energy for all this. Now, my answer to the whole thread is...read Dixon and Steve. Getting old or maybe recognizing who the audience is that I can help. Something. Wish I already had my ppl. Too far to drive 8 hours to watch a blow out this weekend. It's getting warmer outside. May all of you have an enjoyable season.

Seasonally Affected Disorder


Get some sunlight man....your making ME SAD :dance

[Nap]

Nap,

I think " their trigger" is not as individualized as people think. I think there are a couple of standard mechanisms that can be seen in most HOF hitters

I think learning the simple leverage and physics of those mechanisms is more promising than believing that molecular biology is the answer.

Unfortunately you cannot have one without the other, they are principles. You can simplify or complicate the issue any way you like, an athlete can be knowledgeable or oblivious, but if his timing is not there, he will be unable to match top end pitching velocities.

With out the ability to overcome inertia at foot strike (hips and hands in motion), the entire motor pattern will be altered, as strength and not power will be required. It is the difference between a rigged swing vs. a fluid sweet swing.

[Nap]

This would make for an interesting study at ASMI. Hook the body muscles up to sensors and then record their firing sequence as the hitter initiates the swing. It would first be interesting to see the sequence in which the muscles are activated and then see if it is different for different hitters.

It would be an interesting study, and I am sure people have tried, and are still working on it. The problem with the information is that power movements are 'feed forward loops' and not 'feed back loops'. Due to the velocity of the action athletes do not get instant feed back as they would be in non ballistic motions (the difference of teaching a power clean vs. standing shoulder press). The power clean needs much input from the coach, and athletes have to learn to evaluate the movement after completion and not during its execution as this would cause a breakdown in the movement. The shoulder press on the other hand is much slower and simpler, with little instruction athletes can learn it quickly and do it well.

[swingbuster]

Unfortunately you cannot have one without the other, they are principles. You can simplify or complicate the issue any way you like, an athlete can be knowledgeable or oblivious, but if his timing is not there, he will be unable to match top end pitching velocities.

With out the ability to overcome inertia at foot strike (hips and hands in motion), the entire motor pattern will be altered, as strength and not power will be required. It is the difference between a rigged swing vs. a fluid sweet swing.

Nap you ain't just nappin ...great post

[Nap]

Nap you ain't just nappin ...great post

Swingbuster,

One thing I have seen is a consistent difference between the trigger and shoulder position at foot strike between RHH and LHH, have you noticed a difference between lefties and righties?

LHH seem to have bigger triggers, hands slightly lower, and shoulder (left shoulder lower than front shoulder at foot strike?

Do you think it is because lefties have more time to see the ball than righties vs. RHP?

[swingbuster]

I think batting from the opposite side early in life gave them a big mental advantage making them more agressive hitters that got in position to hit the ball more often than the righties.

[Nap]

I think batting from the opposite side early in life gave them a big mental advantage making them more agressive hitters that got in position to hit the ball more often than the righties.

Good observation.

[Jake Patterson]

I think batting from the opposite side early in life gave them a big mental advantage making them more agressive hitters that got in position to hit the ball more often than the righties.

I tried a LH hitters Vs RH hitters batting average search.

It would be interesting to have RH vs LH by year, RH hitter against RH pitcher RH against LH and LH against RH and LH aganist LH.

Anyone have any ideas?

jake

[GFK]

I tried a LH hitters Vs RH hitters batting average search.

It would be interesting to have RH vs LH by year, RH hitter against RH pitcher RH against LH and LH against RH and LH aganist LH.

Anyone have any ideas?

jake

www.foxsports.com lists the hitting stats for a given player against RHP and LHP. If you pulled a random sample of 30 RH hitters and 30 LH Hitters, you may be able to pull some significant statistical conclusions. I suggest you go pose the problem on the sabermetrics board. I could do the analysis but I would have to dig out the math books and relearn much of it to do it properly. Some of the people on sabermetrics board live for this kind of stuff. Besides, I would be willing to bet the study has been done in the past. The people that frequent the sabermetrics section of BF.com would know about it and how to get to it.

Let me know if you find out anything. I am interested in the outcome.

[Nap]

I tried a LH hitters Vs RH hitters batting average search.

It would be interesting to have RH vs LH by year, RH hitter against RH pitcher RH against LH and LH against RH and LH aganist LH.

Anyone have any ideas?

jake


Jake I will put my money on the lefties!!

[Fiver]

... Epstein is bias on his system and he thinks he invented rotation. Epstein incorrectly explains the swing plane and how rotation is developed or initiated. Epstein and Yeager both believe that the stride initiates rotation (Epstein the front foot/leg). Yeager believing in ground reaction forces and Epstein in the same boat using the heel drop/heel up sequence. There is no such force except hip rotation, that causes hip rotation...

Now that I think about it pretty funny that a guy who claims to have invented rotation doesn't know how it works, LOL. Funny stuff...

----------------------------
Now about this tilting. 4for4 is correct. Epstein believes that the tilt sets the swing plane. The only problem is he is looking at the wrong tilt. It's not tilting backwards and there are few swings/hitter who tilt backwards, that is old school reverse C, don't come forward garbage. And that is exactly what Epstein students are doing the reverse C, weight back, leaning back. He has just repackaged the reverse C garbage and re sold it. It just goes to show you there is nothing new, just re learned and unlearned stuff repackaged.

It's pretty clear that you have no clue about what Epstein says. I worked with Mike 1:1 last year and what you are saying is just wrong.

1) "he thinks he invented rotation"
Wrong - he states (in writing) that he coined the phrase, but clearly has also stated on numerous occasion that he only simplified the way it is taught and that's what caught Ted Williams' attention.

2) "Epstein and Yeager both believe that the stride initiates rotation"
Wrong again At least in the case of Epstein, he teaches to "stride to balance" and that the heal drop is used as a TRIGGER mechanism. When he and I worked together, we used the heal drop as a timing point for when rotation starts. I drop my heal on a fastball at a different point than when I drop it for a change or a slider. It is what que's the hips, not what actually fires them.

3) "And that is exactly what Epstein students are doing the reverse C, weight back, leaning back."
Um...Not quite - Clearly, Epstein has shown, said and taught that the weight is supported on the "inside of the rear thigh". If the batter strides to balance, then the weight only starts there, but as the momentum is stopped by the blocking front leg, the weight shifts to the front foot while the tilt is established. As for leaning back, quite a few hi-level swing hitters in MLB tilt at the end fo their swing provided the ball is low. The tilt is done to match the plane of the ball and if it is a high strike, there just isn't that much tilt that can be done correctly.