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View Full Version : BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1987


Freakshow
02-13-2007, 10:44 AM
Welcome to Baseball Fever's Mock VC Election for 1987. The goal of this project is to conduct Hall of Fame VC elections from 1987-2001 (and perhaps beyond, as long as we’re still electing guys), as if we were the VC, and then compare our results to the actual results. However, these elections will not consider players already elected in BBF Mock BBWAA elections, such as Ashburn and Santo.

This post will provide two things:

1) The Format and Rules

2) A Guide for the 1987 Election

Format and Rules
- The HOF VC never published an actual ballot, and the results of their voting were not compiled for public consumption. At the same time, they rarely considered players who retired over 70 years ago, preferring guys they fondly remembered seeing. Thus, our focus will be towards 20th century players they should have been considering. Our ballot will allow them a 50-year window of retirees (1914-1963 for the first election). This will eliminate most players whose careers began in the 19th century. As the actual VC did, we will consider those players in separate ballots 1995-2001. The VC was also giving short shrift to Negro league candidates at this time. Again, as the actual VC did, we will consider those players in separate ballots 1995-2001.

- We will start with a 45-player ballot. I will act as the screening committee. You can suggest other candidates, of course, and if I get a second for a candidate I’ll add him to the next ballot. This number will likely decline as we proceed with elections, but we will always list at least 25 candidates. Close attention will be paid to identifying candidates who are in their last two years of eligibility (1914-15 retirees for the 1987 election).

- Voters may vote for between 1-45 candidates; you’re free to support anyone you think is deserving of the Hall. Because we are electing only one player each time, voters will have complete freedom to support everyone they like. This policy is consistent with the VC rules in force at the time.

- A "None of the Above" option is not available. We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them.

- 75% support or greater will elect a player, but only one player per year maximum. Exception: If two players with 75%+ tie for first place, they both will be enshrined. If three or more players with 75%+ tie for first, there will be a runoff election.

- Players will ensure their continuing on the ballot as long as they draw 5% (candidates failing to get 5% will sometimes be added back to the ballot to reach the 25-player minimum or if they’re deemed deserving of another chance). We’ll also give new candidates a chance to build some momentum: players drawing less than 5% may also continue on the ballot if their vote percentage equals or exceeds their years eligible minus 1%. Look at that in chart form:

Yr 1 needs 0%
Yr 2 needs 1%
Yr 3 needs 2%
Yr 4 needs 3%
Yr 5 needs 4%
Yr +5 needs 5%

- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.

- When figuring a candidate’s worthiness, everything counts, the sum of their lifetime in baseball. Some players have significant manager credit – Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Alvin Dark and Fielder Jones. Others, like Lefty O’Doul, made contributions that nearly surpassed their playing career.

- The election will close exactly a week after it started. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.

- One thing I want to add. Remember, this is a veterans committee election. We’re dealing with players near the Hall’s in-out line. Careful study of the candidates is required to determine the ins from the outs. If you’re not up to this, please, no off-the-top-of-my-head ballots. If that means fewer ballots, that’s fine. I would rather have an informed vote of 12 ballots then a quick-and-dirty vote of 52 ballots.

1987 Guide
There are 45 candidates on the 1987 ballot. They all played their final game in the period 1914 to 1963. Here's some information regarding the candidates:

First Timers (4)
Gil Hodges
Red Schoendienst
Eddie Yost
Ted Kluszewski

Other Recently-New Eligibles
Don Newcombe (2nd year)
Mickey Vernon (2nd)
Alvin Dark (2nd)
Larry Doby (3rd)

Last Year of Eligibility
Mike Donlin (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=979&pid=3677)

Next to Last Year of Eligibility
Fielder Jones (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1195&pid=7123)
George Mullin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mullin_(baseball))

Actual Hall of Famers on VC 1987 Ballot (5)
Larry Doby (1998)
Tony Lazzeri (1991)
Hal Newhouser (1992)
Phil Rizzuto (1994)
Red Schoendienst (1989)

Members of BBF Hall of Fame on VC 1987 Ballot (6)
Larry Doby
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Stan Hack
Sherry Magee
Hal Newhouser

Members of the Hall of Merit on VC 1987 Ballot (7)
Larry Doby
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Sherry Magee
Hal Newhouser

Candidates Listed on the 2007 Hall of Fame VC Ballot (9)
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Marty Marion
Carl Mays
Don Newcombe
Lefty O’Doul
Cecil Travis
Mickey Vernon

For previous discussion of this election, see the thread “Cooperstown, NY – Spring, 1986.”

KCGHOST
02-13-2007, 11:45 AM
I think when you look at this 45-man ballot you can see the problem the VC has. There are no "no-doubt-about-it" guys. Just about everyone needs some form of "boost" to get elected. I could honestly see someone saying "none of the above" to this question.

dgarza
02-13-2007, 11:58 AM
I think when you look at this 45-man ballot you can see the problem the VC has. There are no "no-doubt-about-it" guys. Just about everyone needs some form of "boost" to get elected. I could honestly see someone saying "none of the above" to this question.
They did happen to get Johnny Mize in, a "no-dobt-about-it" player.

Larry Doby and Sherry Magee are the strongest candidates this go around. I don't know why these players would need a "boost", I don't even know what "boost" means. Do you mean some sort of handicap?

Freakshow
02-13-2007, 11:59 AM
I think when you look at this 45-man ballot you can see the problem the VC has. There are no "no-doubt-about-it" guys. Just about everyone needs some form of "boost" to get elected. I could honestly see someone saying "none of the above" to this question.
Which I would liken to the sloth displayed by Bill James in his Jeff Bagwell comment: "Pass".

Freakshow
02-13-2007, 01:12 PM
With the first ten ballots, we already have three ballots that failed to find even four worthy players. This is against the spirit of these VC elections, expressed by this, from the rules: "We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them."

When 30% of the ballots are extremely short, it makes it very hard to elect anyone - basically, it sabotages the process.

It brings up the old issue of standards: we are supposed to be guided by the standards of the Hall of Fame as of 1987. They have thus far found five players worthy of enshrining off this ballot. Even more expert electorates, those of Baseball Fever and the Hall of Merit, have elected six and seven of these players, respectively.

We'll live with it for this election. I would only request that voters who can't find even five players to vote for should explain their reasoning, something more substantial than, "I'm a small-hall guy," or similar excuses.

DoubleX
02-13-2007, 01:28 PM
With the first ten ballots, we already have three ballots that failed to find even four worthy players. This is against the spirit of these VC elections, expressed by this, from the rules: "We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them."

When 30% of the ballots are extremely short, it makes it very hard to elect anyone - basically, it sabotages the process.

It brings up the old issue of standards: we are supposed to be guided by the standards of the Hall of Fame as of 1987. They have thus far found five players worthy of enshrining off this ballot. Even more expert electorates, those of Baseball Fever and the Hall of Merit, have elected six and seven of these players, respectively.

We'll live with it for this election. I would only request that voters who can't find even five players to vote for should explain their reasoning, something more substantial than, "I'm a small-hall guy," or similar excuses.

I think it should be difficult to come to a consensus here. These are players that were already bypassed by the BBWAA, and thus the chances are that the Hall of Fame cases for most of them, are pretty debatable at the very least. But unlike the regular elections, we need only elect one player, so if we did form a consensus around multiple players, it would all be for naught anyway. So if we can get enough support for just one player, then it should be viewed as a success. Right now, Larry Doby is on the line, but I think that at some point, if not in this election, we'll get Doby in. If we get Doby in, this year, he'll be that one player, so this will be a success.

I personally will only vote for players that I could have seen myself voting for in the regular election, or who would have been extremely borderline for me at the regular election (like Red Schoendienst, Bob Johnson, Wally Schang, and Heinie Groh are also examples of this). In the case of the latter, I will vote for the player here as I will open my standards up just enough for that extra limited area. Everyone I don't for are players that I would have viewed as definitively on the outside in the regular election, so why should I vote for them now? Nothing's changed - they're still on the outside. Some less so than others, in which cases, I could change my mind, and those are the players I've listed in the following post as players I couldn't quite vote for but might in the future.

DoubleX
02-13-2007, 01:30 PM
I voted for:

Larry Doby
Joe Gordon
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Bob Johnson
Sherry Magee
Hal Newhouser
Wally Schang
Red Schoendienst

I could not quite pull the trigger on (but might in the future):

Wally Berger
Tommy Bridges
Larry Doyle
Bob Elliot
Wes Ferrell
Gil Hodges
Tony Lazzeri
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays
Buddy Myer
Vern Stephens
Cecil Travis

I kind of wish now that I voted for Myer and Travis as they have not received any support thus far and I think it would be ashame if they were dropped from future ballots.

KCGHOST
02-13-2007, 01:56 PM
Larry Doby and Sherry Magee are the strongest candidates this go around. I don't know why these players would need a "boost", I don't even know what "boost" means. Do you mean some sort of handicap?

"Boost", (i.e. extra credit for something). Like Doby getting extra credit for being the first A-A in the AL, or "short career big peak", or "he missed three years to the war", etc.

The only guy I really like is Newhouser. There is no way I could vote for ten of these guys. Maybe Doby, Magee, and Hack.

Freakshow
02-14-2007, 10:37 AM
Through 20 ballots so far we have a three-horse race, with Doby a nose ahead of Newhouser and Gordon. Also named on at least half the ballots are Hack, Magee, Mays and Schoendienst. Rounding out the top ten are Groh, Cravath and Ferrell.

Of course, there is a distinct possibility that nobody will be elected. If it were possible, I would set up this poll with a minimum vote requirement, so a voter couldn't just pull the lever for Yost and no one else. Again, I ask that anyone who can't find five worthy candidates here to explain the difficulty, that we might all profit from your thought process.

KCGHOST
02-14-2007, 03:16 PM
Well, it's easier to vote for five guys than to explain why 41 guys aren't up to the mark so I'll go with:

Newhouser, Doby, Hack, Shocker and Magee. Feel okay about the first three.

dgarza
02-16-2007, 11:14 AM
Anybody interested in seconding any of these players for next year's VC ballot?

Dixie Walker, Walker Cooper, Bobby Veach, George Burns (LF), Cy Williams, Del Ennis, Frank McCormick, Del Pratt

THE OX
02-18-2007, 06:12 AM
Anybody interested in seconding any of these players for next year's VC ballot?

Dixie Walker, Walker Cooper, Bobby Veach, George Burns (LF), Cy Williams, Del Ennis, Frank McCormick, Del Pratt

I'll second Walker Cooper and Del Ennis. Aw, what the hell, I'll second McCormick, too!

-Kyle-
02-18-2007, 03:56 PM
Voted veeery relaxed...I must have like 15 guys on there....

RuthMayBond
02-18-2007, 06:24 PM
Anybody interested in seconding any of these players for next year's VC ballot?

Dixie Walker, Walker Cooper, Bobby Veach, George Burns (LF), Cy Williams, Del Ennis, Frank McCormick, Del PrattI guess I'll lay off the real VC ;)

Freakshow
02-19-2007, 08:46 AM
I'll second Walker Cooper and Del Ennis. Aw, what the hell, I'll second McCormick, too!
OK, I'll add those three to the 1988 ballot. I also have Billy Pierce and Nap Rucker lined up. With (at this point) ten guys dropping off, we'll have a 40-player ballot. I also might keep Fielder Jones around for his final year.

Freakshow
02-20-2007, 12:50 PM
Well, this election is over and, like the actual VC in 1987, we elected no players from MLB. I'll post a wrapup tonight.

Eleven candidates failed to get 5%:
Wally Berger
Wilbur Cooper
Alvin Dark
Mike Donlin
Fielder Jones
Dolf Luque
Marty Marion
George Mullin
Buddy Myer
Jack Quinn
Cecil Travis

Alvin Dark is saved by the newer candidate rule - he needed only 1% to continue after his second year eligible. I may also bring back Fielder Jones for his last year eligible. The other nine will fall off for 1988.

If there are any other candidates you'd like to see for the next ballot, you have until tonight to raise them and have them seconded.

Captain Cold Nose
02-20-2007, 01:23 PM
I guess I'll lay off the real VC ;)
Those who don't vote see their complaints worth the same amount.

RuthMayBond
02-20-2007, 01:31 PM
Those who don't vote see their complaints worth the same amount.Apparently those who vote for Doby, Magee and Newhouser are persona non grata :confused: :noidea

Freakshow
02-20-2007, 02:03 PM
Apparently those who vote for Doby, Magee and Newhouser are persona non grata :confused: :noidea
Yeah, don't quite know where he's coming from. Still, if you could manage to vote for Joe Gordon, Stan Hack and a couple others, you might actually achieve persona apotheosis! ;)

RuthMayBond
02-20-2007, 02:06 PM
Yeah, don't quite know where he's coming from. Maybe someone will add a bullseye avatar :ughh

Freakshow
02-20-2007, 08:59 PM
Here are the results, in order, for the 1987 Mock VC election:

1914-1963 Pos Pct Votes
Larry Doby CF 71.05 27
Hal Newhouser P 68.42 26
Joe Gordon 2B 60.53 23
Sherry Magee LF 52.63 20
Stan Hack 3B 47.37 18
Carl Mays P 42.11 16
Red Schoendienst 2B 42.11 16
Gil Hodges 1B 34.21 13
Wes Ferrell P 31.58 12
Heinie Groh 3B 28.95 11
Tony Lazzeri 2B 28.95 11
Gavy Cravath RF 23.68 9
Bob Johnson LF 23.68 9
Phil Rizzuto SS 23.68 9
Al Rosen 3B 18.42 7
Vern Stephens SS 18.42 7
Larry Doyle 2B 15.79 6
Don Newcombe P 15.79 6
Urban Shocker P 15.79 6
Eddie Yost 3B 15.79 6
Ted Kluszewski 1B 13.16 5
Lefty O'Doul LF 13.16 5
Johnny Pesky SS/3B 13.16 5
Wally Schang C 13.16 5
Tommy Leach 3B/CF 10.53 4
Mickey Vernon 1B 10.53 4
Bucky Walters P 10.53 4
Bob Elliott 3B 7.89 3
Charlie Keller LF 7.89 3
Tommy Bridges P 5.26 2
Dolph Camilli 1B 5.26 2
Hal Trosky 1B 5.26 2
Lon Warneke P 5.26 2
Joe Wood P 5.26 2
Wally Berger CF 2.63 1 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Wilbur Cooper P 2.63 1 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Alvin Dark SS 2.63 1
Mike Donlin LF/CF 2.63 1 ( eligibility expired)
Jack Quinn P 2.63 1 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Cecil Travis SS 2.63 1 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Fielder Jones CF 0 0
Dolf Luque P 0 0 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Marty Marion SS 0 0 ( not on 1988 ballot)
George Mullin P 0 0 ( not on 1988 ballot)
Buddy Myer 2B 0 0 ( not on 1988 ballot)

The average ballot had 8.21 names listed. That seems like a pretty reasonable minimum to me; voters ought to be able to find eight guys worth supporting.

Now that we've established a pecking order, maybe we can focus on the top guys and elect somebody. The top five finishers here have impeccable cases for election, IMO.

There are nine players here who will not be carried over to the 1988 ballot. These players may appear on future ballots, if someone raises them as candidates and they are seconded. Except for Donlin, whose case now passes to the 19th century ballot committee, set to begin voting in 1995.

Captain Cold Nose
02-21-2007, 05:36 AM
Apparently those who vote for Doby, Magee and Newhouser are persona non grata :confused: :noidea
My apologies, missed your name. Consider yourself persona grata. :confused: :noidea