My son's swing.

[Sonny]

The background: Jacob is 11. About a year ago I found this site and became really encouraged to study the rotational swing mechanics debate posted here. Some of you have spent time helping me and for that I'm grateful. From Spring through Fall, we spent much time working on improving his swing. The results so far are that he led his 11-12 recreation team in hitting as a 10 year old (more doubles and triples than singles), and he hit his first homerun in August during the championship game of a tournament that our 11-Under travel team won. After about a two and half month lay-off, we are now getting prepared to play again. While he seems to be hitting well, I'm concerned that he has a bit of bat drag that we can't seem to work out. In the following video footage (sorry about the quality), it appears to me that the bat is a bit slow getting through the zone in relation to his body becoming open. Any comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Sonny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDt9RUi65ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnhgxEsBg2I

[Erik]

Sonny,
I like his batspeed and rotation. I think he needs to get off the back side though. Do you see that he is spinining?









EL,

[swingbuster]

Eric is correct

There are not but two ways to get off the back side
1. tall and fall
2 coil and drive...PUSH or carry the coil forward if you prefer

The lateral tilt of the shoulders at heel drop will catapult that barrel so do not be afraid of PUSH if you block and tilt and she will.

Coil and PUSH

Great cue to get them to push....move the hinge angle more out front before releasing it. This is shifting for a purpose and they coordinate the push and incorporate it at the right time in the sequence...tip barrl , coil hip and move the hinge angle out front before release and the lift goes away and turns into backside release.

Place a tee a little more out front maybe 4-5 inches and make her get on the inside seam of a ball still. He will have to release the back side.

I deal with this all the time.... The drop and tilt training has helped horizontal connections him but it has him back foot hitting now

Epstein said " stride to balance" and the new center of balance is forward of his front foot placement now by 2-5 inches

Yeager says" you must move your center of mass and move the front foot to a new center of pressure

Buster's Rule..... If, at impact, your back heel pivots to a point behind the line where it started you are not shifting weight properly and you are reverse pivoting. It is NEVER wrong
If that is the case you are leaving tons of effortless power on the table and in this case it is without any doubt why she gets jammed up and lifts. It is adversely affecting her internal timing

He should have 4 more inches of head over belt buckle shift as the barrel is returning to plane before front foot block to move the COM and the front foot center of pressure forward.

ON FILM ANALYSIS

WHEN YOU SEE THE REAR HEEL POP UP OR DRAG AND NOT SWIVEL BEHIND THE LINE He WILL BE FIXED

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[Sonny]

Erik,

The weight on his back side does seem to be an issue, and I'm sure there are more. Any suggestions that I can use to teach him how to have more weight distributed forward without going too far?

Sonny

[TwinEngine]

1) Horizontal swing plane. Little if any shoulder tilt.
2) Hits "out front"
3) Batspeed is late in the swing
4) Appears to be pushing through contact

I can't play it frame by frame.

Is there a way to get video off youtube (and the others) so one can play it frame by frame?

[swingbuster]

The frontal clip is at the point I put the ball's laces facing vertical and facing backwards and show them that they cannot stop hitting the outside seam and when they do hit CF or backside it is because they were late getting around

When they cannot hit the inside seam time after time and continue to wrap teh ball they have " officially failed" at the stated goal and THEN they listen

Always create failure patiently in a drill FIRST...then move on

I had about 10 kids doing the same thing Mini-Sonny is doing yesterday.

The problem is they are team leaders in LL because it IS an explosive move. The bigger problem is their journey will get more difficult if they ingrain that back foot spinning too long.

A good Lau saying

. ” I cannot stress enough the importance of the back foot's shoelaces ending up pointing toward the pitcher, and the heel pointed toward the sky. That is what allows the hip to fully rotate through the ball as well as what allows the hands to stay inside the pitch.” - Charley Lau, Jr.

AND lastly ..how are you going to shift weight and keep the barrel "shaft to shoulder" above the ball on approach to contact with the tee that high. He is doing what he must do

[dannyboy]

Sonny,

Both Jacob and you are doing fine.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jacobrearfoot.jpg

[swingbuster]

THe positives ...

The lead leg is in extension ( hips are turned through) before contact. Good separation.

That is the goal of drop then tilt

[MSandman]

Sonny,

Both Jacob and you are doing fine.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jacobrearfoot.jpgLooking at contact can be misleading, IMO.

His swing (even his age) are quite familiar. IMO, his swing is very similar to my son's - and in need of the same issues to be addressed, namely: 1) stride to balance (head over belt buckle), 2) keep lead arm bent til launch. At least he appears to have better posture than my son - tho from a pitcher's angle, my son's posture doesn't look as bad as it does from this open view either.
http://members.cox.net/dsanda/Jacob%20-%20stride%20toe%20touch.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/Kevin%20-%20early%20slotting%20rear%20elbow.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/Kevin%20-%20HR%20posture%20at%20stride%20toe%20touch.jpg

Also, I find my son's tee/dry swings to often be some of his worst mechanically. Too much time seems to allow too many extraneous movements that don't show up in live swings. Do you have any live swings of your son (as it may be quite unproductive for us to continue analyzing his tee swing)?

Swingbuster's right... at this level, kids DO get a sense of more "power" w/ this type of swing, in which they lean back, raise their lead arm and drop their elbow, then drag/sling the bat thru. It generates plenty of batspeed (albeit late, as TwinEngine said), but it lacks bat quickness. In all likelihood, it will continue to serve him well in rec ball. The real test, at least in my son's case, will be that his 12U AAU team is in the Super Division this year - which means "top 10 teams in New England". I fear that my son's swing will not hold up to the level of pitching he'll see, and that is why I continue to post his swings out here, looking for improvement.

Good luck to him this year. IMO, there is still work to be done (for both of us).

[TwinEngine]

Sonny

When I go to your first youtube clip, there is another clip to the right, titled BASEBALL SWINGS. A kid with a yellow or off white shirt.

Watch his clip (there are several swings in the clip) and compare what his shoulders do to your son's shoulders.

There is a large difference and it is huge to his ability to hit.

Also, watch his hand path as compared to your son's.

[Sonny]

Donny,

I'm not sure I understand your comments about the laces, because it appears that he is doing what you prescribe. Could you please explain a bit further?

Also, I will video him at batting practice this afternoon, so I should have some good clips against live pitching.

MSandman, you have hit the nail on the head with your comment about the ability of the swing to hold up. Thus far on our 11-Under travel team, he has performed well. My concern, though, is that with what I perceive as bat drag, he will be unable to catch up with some of the 'elite' fast balls that are sure to come his way this Spring.

Sonny


Thanks,
Sonny

[MSandman]

Sonny, we are sorta in the same boat - both of our kids are having success right now, but we anticipate the need for change to continue that success.

FWIW, I have filmed numerous hitters in our league over the past few years - many who were considered league studs - and almost all of them exhibit these same traits. I often wonder (and have asked, but never received any feedback) if anyone has seen MLB players swings when they were 11 or 12. I wonder if they were just naturally mechanically sound at a young age, or if they, like our kids, got the job done however they could figure out? Then, as they got older and the pitching got better, only then did they make the necessary adjustments?

Anyone know of any MLB youth clips floating around?

[swingbuster]

What Mike is talking about to is to have the body axis vertical to the ground before the shoulder tilt.

Your son has a great sequence now except he is tilted back lining up on that high tee to lift the ball before he gets his front foot down creating a vertical body axis.

He is tilted before the tilt which pitched him back hard on the back side or his head is moving back before contact.

Work him some at " knee high to him". Make him stay more upright before he tilts through the ball and get the hands ahead of the ball and drive some two hoppers through the infield and his back toe will drag some

Just don;t be totally one deminsional. The higher levels need to handle the down pitch and keep it down going back through the infield.

[jbooth]

Donny,

I'm not sure I understand your comments about the laces, because it appears that he is doing what you prescribe. Could you please explain a bit further?

Also, I will video him at batting practice this afternoon, so I should have some good clips against live pitching.

MSandman, you have hit the nail on the head with your comment about the ability of the swing to hold up. Thus far on our 11-Under travel team, he has performed well. My concern, though, is that with what I perceive as bat drag, he will be unable to catch up with some of the 'elite' fast balls that are sure to come his way this Spring.

Sonny


Thanks,
Sonny

He is rotating well, but he needs to rotate into the front foot, not plant the front foot and rotate on the back one. You shift and turn with the front foot accepting all the pressure from the shift AND the turn.

Compare the back foot position of your son, to ARod;

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jacobrearfoot.jpg

http://firstpickclub.com/images/arod_contact in front.jpg

[MSandman]

oops, double post

[MSandman]

Yes, but HOW does he need to do that? CAN he rotate into the front foot without first transferring his weight (stride to balance)?

I think the most important point you made is "You shift and turn". He needs to shift his weight (head over belly button or belt buckle) during the stride

[Sonny]

I thought I'd be able to post some more pics today, but as it turned out, I was to far away with my digital camera and the shots are blurred. I did get some good video footage with my digital video cam, though, and as soon as I can figure out how to upload those I will.

In the meantime, when we refer to 'shift and turn' into the front foot, can you recommend any drills that I can use to teach this? I realize that his weight is too far back, but I don't want him too far forward (out over the front foot) either. In my opinion, he is close to where he needs to be, but definitely needs a few adjustments.

Thanks for the advice so far!

Sonny

[swingbuster]

This youth swing has some great stuff Sonny.

On the side view you see him " rounding off the swing" with the top hand. Same as circling the ball ; same as wrapping around the ball.

When you tilt the axis early the lead arm has no pull leverage to control the direction of the knob to make the swing an ellipital ( elongated circle). So his swing is a literal circle. The early tilt puts the swing on a 30 plus degree upper cut on ALL swings no matter where the pitch is.

Players staying on the back side and hinging the knee with no weight transfer put that same swing on all pitch locations. They will circle the ball and hit top spin hooks to the pull side and many foul balls.

The top hand will become progressively dominant and he will become a back foot / top hand roll over hitter in time.

Fortunately, I think he can self correct much of this is you change his tee height and ball flight objective mentally. Hitting line drives to just right of 2 B and learning how to drive the palm up top hand into the ball with the knob leading the hands will force his axis more upright.