Results?

[wogdoggy]

Since steve e and john booth and swingbuster arent available for lessons i took my boy to a local guy for a few lessons.his video is under matt p on the bottom link below..do u guys see any improvement vs the fall clip????


link from last fall

http://www.esnips.com/doc/09982ef3-6b7e-4d0a-adac-e81fcf46e43a/100_3067



links from now under matt p


http://www.sewellbaseball.com/students/student_lessons_videoclips.html


does he seem to extend better? do u see any improvement at all after 6 lesssons?


anything to work on?
I want to keep the tip of his bat up more at footplant,and get him a better posture for sure,,,he seems to like to start off a lil more upright..

thanks for any feedback.
!

please take in consideration one is in slow mo

[bamajeff]

I see bat drag, poor posture(which you alluded to). Other than that, it's not too bad. Connection is pretty good, he keeps the hinge angle maintained pretty well. He just needs to work more on rotational posture and taming that over active back arm.

I actually think the clip from the fall is better.

Why are you concerned about getting extension?

[swingbuster]

As always I like lead arm extension to occur as a upper and lower body torque position that develops on the way to foot plant

I like the barrel more vertical ( weighless) and in closer to back shoulder

I like better spine angle

I like the lead elbow down

Now ,,,he goes or starts in lead arm extension while standing upright and in ine swing the bat stays flat and the other it raises some

The tip and rip/ inside seam drill would be interesting. I have never seen it fail yet to reveal some hidden power potential and change the way people view the swing for then on

[Jake Patterson]

Wog,
Can you post a still of his initial set up. It seems to me that his hands are extended back too far. This may be one of the causes for the bat drag..
Sort of like this (White lines):
19107

Note: When taking film of swings have him take off the big sweat shirt

BTW: Looks like a pretty good swing. How old is Matt?

[chesspirate]

I dont' see his hands beeing to far back, if you look close, i think that his upper body is counter-rotated quite a bit, so that his shoulders point to the right of the second baseman (if that makes any sense) so the video would appear to show his hands being 'further back' than they actually are.

The bat drag is deffinately the issue, it points to the real issue, wich is that he is using his arms to swing instead of his body. You can play with anything in this swing you want to, but untill you get the body to power the swing, these things are going to keep cropping up.

hey bamajeff, i think that bat drag and connection are kinda mutually exclusive, so, i don't think he can be connected while dragging. Connection wouldn't allow for this type of 'slop'. what are your thoughts on this?

but wogdoggy, i must sound bamjeff's question again (and i've asked you before), why are you so worried about extension? There are many other really pertinent issues to improving this swing that can be more easily focused on and worked on than something kinda location dependant like extension.

[Ursa Major]

Some good focus in this thread. Posture is not just an issue in its own right, but symptomatic of an apparent lack of "real" loading. For example, he turns the front knee in, but is he really loading the front hip, or just making the motion because it looks like it's what he ought to be doing. If he's really feeling the tension in the inside of his left thigh, the proper tilt/posture should come more naturally.

Also, that back elbow drop has to come in concert with the rear shoulder rotating. By dropping that elbow too soon (and ultimately lagging), it bleeds off the power that should come with the shoulder rotation. Woggy, have him work on "The Greatest Drill in the World", as it focuses on keeping that back elbow more connected to the back shoulder.

And by the way, it's Jim Booth. I, however, remain...

John

[swingbuster]

AGAIN ..THE DRILL HAS NEVER FAILED ME OR ANYBODY ELSE THAT UNDERSTANDS IT. You can get all the lessons you want and keep that flat bat and you will be swinging the same 30 months from now IMHO. The PCR stuff has been applied for how long now?

Getting your top hand in a position where it cannot go to the ball linearly at swing initiation will change your swing with some work. You will be a good rotational hitter only when your upper body is rotationally sound and that sets up in the preswing


Until you change the first direction the top hand moves you will always be linear

Try this

Quote:

set up a tee thigh high

place ball on the tee with laces facing backwards

draw a chalk line back to pitchers throwing arm.

make kid keep feet on that line of direction

keep shoulder in that line of the feet not counter rotated

put hands out from right arm pit and below shoulder line

bat barrel vertical and or vertical and tipped to oppo gap slightly

coil hips ...shift (keeping the hip coil)... and hit the inside seam 50-100 times per day...he will learn to load and hit better through some trail and error and ball feedback if you enforce this starting position and stay on that inside seam to center field.

If they can throw in a segmented whip then they can hit in a segmented whip. You just try to bring that out. Slow the move down to 3-1 load and swing and get the hips to coil .

YEAGER...[smooth transition from upper body loading at back foot push is very important

If you put the tee up front a bit and still work to get on that inside seam to CF line drive you will get the batter to load and shift( get off the back side) . You must get the barrel loading out of plane, hip coil and keep the barrel loaded out of plane at coil at /push/ carry/ shift . The conscience part is coil the hips as to tip the barrel forward. You must maintain the loaded barrel outside the helmet to almost foot plant ( you will not make it that far). The aiming goal is the inside seam which makes you slot properly with mentioning the back elbow. You will be on the inside out path and you will have torque

Get the set up right, load the barrel with the hands only as you hip coil and stride with the intent to hit the inside seam. You will see how often they hit the outside seam and they can to and make their own adjustments there


More about the top hand ...( Meet Bonds Top Hand stuff)

The hips are connected to the shoulders by the torso. In order for the hips to activate and move the shoulder linkage the torso must be involved.

THe problem is ...the hips can turn , the shoulders can turn and/ or they can turn together( spin). We must break them apart to get torque . AT GO...the shoulder must be mechanized to stay in as the hips turn naturally. THe first negative hand action effecting the bat barrel positioning can smoothly break them apart

A one piece spinning pattern is a common swing flaw . Late in the swing( just before contact) the shoulders can be pulling the hips around if the hips don't lead. You see that in many kids if you look hard

To get some overlap or delay, the hands must be going back as the hips start forword unconsciecely.

SInce this is hard to do you must place the top hand in a position where it MUST go back before it can advance the barrel.

Place you top hands in front of you right arm pit and open the palm facing the pitcher and sloped down.

From that top hand position the barrel will go back 100 % of the time before it can bring the barrel forward.

Any other position can allow linear hand action with both hands pulling forward instead of rotation of the barrel at swing initiation.

Tip & Rip is grounded in science & kinesiology. Hip shoulder separation and connection of the hip drive to the barrel through the shoulder/ arm/ hand linkage is dependant on the initial direction that top hand moves

People think if they push both hands back then that is loading and the swing will initiate correctly. Only when the hands torque the handle , turing the barrel back into plane at swing initiation can the top and bottom halves break apart and stop one piece spinning . Once you gets some torque the right way you can reduce your total effort, increase your power and hit gap to gap( get inside the ball)

THis can be mechanized or put on auto pilot by pronating the top hand in the set up

[wogdoggy]

from matts instuctor


See if you can get a visual of the drill that Swingbuster is suggesting. Based on how it sounds, I think it will be perfect for your son. I'd like to know if we can see it.

As far as the swing goes, the more I look at it, the more I don't like it. I'm looking at a clip right now and it is paused. His right heel is down, back heel up, and his elbow is completely down with the knob pointing straight into the camera. That needs to be fixed.

I have a drill that I use to fix it and we'll try it Sunday. I honestly think he takes so many swings with something minor wrong, that it takes that much longer to break the bad habits.

I do have to admit that the results are much better. If you were a coach and knew nothing about hitting mechanics, you'd be amazed at how many more line drives he hits, which is good.

I do have a drill that I do to keep the hands back and allow that back hip to lead the hands, which will hopefull




any chance of a visual on u tube???

[Mark H]

Some good things but work on the casting bat drag, get some vertical load and get someone to throw him decent bp.

[Jake Patterson]

Woggy, have him work on "The Greatest Drill in the World", as it focuses on keeping that back elbow more connected to the back shoulder.
And by the way, it's Jim Booth. I, however, remain...
John

Ursa, to which "Greatest Drill in The World," are you referring to?
Jake

[Mark H]

Since steve e and john booth and swingbuster arent available for lessons



I would think it would most productive to either listen to Steve and Jim Booth or swingbuster. Interpolating between would seem less likely to be productive IMO.

[Mark H]

Ursa, to which "Greatest Drill in The World," are you referring to?
Jake

Good call UM. I assume he's talking about Steve's drill lightheartedly named the WGD by I believe it was fungo. It's available on Steve's site.

[wogdoggy]

would think it would most productive to either listen to Steve and Jim Booth or swingbuster. Interpolating between would seem less likely to be productive IMO.



I realize that..lol

[swingbuster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAjIO0_JTI

You tube swing

Tipping the barrel forward during the coil stride sends the hands BACK at the right time in the sequence

I can send you the AVI version and you can see it in slo mo and see that barrel is at the usual launch spot at heel drop.

The loading pattern gets barrel acceleration back toward the catcher and his bat is doing some serious blurring in the back side of the swing arc. That fence is 325 at the pole and that ball went way over and it was tossed too high and more " at him"

I would think it would most productive to either listen to Steve and Jim Booth or swingbuster. Interpolating between would seem less likely to be productive IMO.

Fair statement but it is " MY TURN " for a while please

Last week Kyle who hasn't played in three years worked this drill and he is learning plane transition for the first time. Notice a slight BHUT hand action that goes with his hip col. The swing is far from perfect but he is hitting line drives back through the box with better top hand action vs pulling off the ball and wrapping the outside seam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgtPU2J7K4U

[hawkiirock]

i missed the second video. thank you

[Mark H]

Fair statement but it is " MY TURN " for a while please



Feel free. I'm still wondering though if you see bhut as the same thing as Richard's swivel?

[YankeeFan01]

I don't like how far down the bat dips in the second clip.

The cameraman in the first clip has the quickest hands I've ever seen!

[swingbuster]

Feel free. I'm still wondering though if you see bhut as the same thing as Richard's swivel

BHUT is the negative loading move. It takes the top hand into a pronated position where it cannot " drag the bat" forward. The lead elbow works down closer to the chest.

PCR identified bat drag as a bad thing accurately

Mankin said both hands pulling forward is a linear hand path accurately

I do not use the term swivel but as I understand the term it describes the top hand turning palm up after the pronation but I could be wrong about that

[Mark H]

As I understand it it involves rotating the bat by swiveling the forearms as discussed in the second engine thread on Shawn's site. I'm stunned you don't feel you have a good handle on what Richard espouses as I think of you, Richard and Tom as together on mechanics. As I've said before, I don't have a problem with your loading method. I don't think it's foundational nor a good thing to add into a kid with a wad of inefficiencies but I certainly don't have a problem with it otherwise. I do think Richard's ideas are nonsense and have been rather surprised you agreed with him. Was I mistaken on your thoughts?

[Mark H]

PCR identified bat drag as a bad thing accurately



Nyman's definition or Richard's definition?



Mankin said both hands pulling forward is a linear hand path accurately



That would depend on how both hands pulled foward.

[Mark H]

This would be Jack's "linear". I would just call it a bad swing/disconnection/push. This is why a certain young man couldn't get the barrel to do what he wanted it to do. Disconnection kills flail and whip.

http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[Mark H]

These hands are pulling in a connected fashion.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=47&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

I'll catch up when I can. Computer access may be iffy for a couple of days.

[dougmac]

As I understand it it involves rotating the bat by swiveling the forearms as discussed in the second engine thread on Shawn's site. I'm stunned you don't feel you have a good handle on what Richard espouses as I think of you, Richard and Tom as together on mechanics. As I've said before, I don't have a problem with your loading method. I don't think it's foundational nor a good thing to add into a kid with a wad of inefficiencies but I certainly don't have a problem with it otherwise. I do think Richard's ideas are nonsense and have been rather surprised you agreed with him. Was I mistaken on your thoughts?

Swingbuster's loading method is used by many major league hitters, and all of them hit with power. It is good to hear that you don't have a problem with it.:clapping

[TwinEngine]

These hands are pulling in a connected fashion.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=47&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

I'll catch up when I can. Computer access may be iffy for a couple of days.

Really? Are you sure they are pulling?

Actually, I think you are right....except one hand is pulling in one direction and the other is pulling in the other.

Which is the equivalent of torquing the handle.

Same hitter, better view...

Full view...

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rose1.gif

Pertinent frames...

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rose1a1.gif

Clear forearm rotation.

[chesspirate]

Nice to see you back teacherman.

I still disagree that the forearm rotation is being fueled by the forearms. It just doesn't make sense, the body is rotating and the bat is being pulled along for the ride, and the rotational forces bring the bat around, thus forcing the forearms to change thier position relative to the torso.

this angle of rose is misleading if you focus your attention solely on the forearms. you have to account for the rotation of the body and how that affects the angle of the forearms from this angle.

[swingbuster]

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with your loading method. I don't think it's foundational nor a good thing to add into a kid with a wad of inefficiencies but I certainly don't have a problem with it otherwise.

I coach quite a few kids at certain times of the year. 33 right now. Getting the barrel in the correct slot to stop the kids from wrapping the ball is foundational for my teaching methods. In many cases it at the core of fixing the inefficiency.

But not always...I had a kid today struggling. I watched his grandfather hit and his father. They were good hitters. This kid wasn't turning his hips. His arm action is great. I showed him how the hips turn to completion before impact. He got it and started mashing

Different strokes for different folks. I just am thankful for all that I have learned on line debating the best hitting people in the world. I have learned from all of them

[TwinEngine]

Nice to see you back teacherman.

I still disagree that the forearm rotation is being fueled by the forearms. It just doesn't make sense, the body is rotating and the bat is being pulled along for the ride, and the rotational forces bring the bat around, thus forcing the forearms to change thier position relative to the torso.

this angle of rose is misleading if you focus your attention solely on the forearms. you have to account for the rotation of the body and how that affects the angle of the forearms from this angle.

I'll take grape. It's my favorite.

P.S. Are you looking at the forearms? I'm not.

[TwinEngine]

.
I showed him how the hips turn to completion before impact. He got it and started mashing

Very important point. Hard to do when everything spins together.

[chesspirate]

Clear forearm rotation.
Are you looking at the forearms? I'm not.

You say whatever it takes to argue with others.

I prefer the original red by the way. And you did too untill you figured out that you weren't smart enough to make it work.

Like most parents across the country, if they don't understand it, they just run away. Difference between them and you is, they just move on, you have a bone to pick.

[TwinEngine]

A little pissy today? Are you done?

I'm looking at the barrel and deciding what makes that happen. Watch the barrel's path. I've asked for 6 months now for a PCR swing that makes the barrel take that path.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rose1a1.gif

NO ONE has produced it.........because it can't be done with rotation alone.

Absolutely impossible.

If it could, someone would've produced it by now and the discussion would be over.

Why won't they produce it, Chesspirate?

[chesspirate]

http://a995.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/12/l_c6df241c99262a25728a42ff288ff882.gif
pretty darn close for an amateur.

[TwinEngine]

First, I must ask....Which PCR are you doing? Old? Revised?

Secondly, I'm sorry but that's not even close.

[chesspirate]

let's not talk about PCR, you never understood it anyway.

why don't you tell me how it's "not even close"

[TwinEngine]

let's not talk about PCR, you never understood it anyway.

Just knew it better than the rest of you.....as per the Master. I'll give you and the others some time. It took me awhile to figure out the shortcomings. You should have the same time to decide.

why don't you tell me how it's "not even close"

Study your upper body.

[chesspirate]

i'm sorry i'm not Pete Rose, or any other MLB player for that matter, so i'm not going to look exactly like them, but that's not the point.

Instead of being cryptic, why don't you just point out what is different? Might actually garner you a little respect around here, otherwise i'll take it that you just want to argue still and really don't care about hitting.

[swingbuster]

Everybody can unhinge the barrel on the diagonal plane

[chesspirate]

i guess it's still true.

we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

[TwinEngine]

i'm sorry i'm not Pete Rose, or any other MLB player for that matter, so i'm not going to look exactly like them, but that's not the point.

Instead of being cryptic, why don't you just point out what is different? Might actually garner you a little respect around here, otherwise i'll take it that you just want to argue still and really don't care about hitting.

You can memorize pretty well. You and the posse. It's easier. It's "your money's worth". That's why one buys.

But that doesn't work with hitting. Reminds me of the pool players that sign up for lessons. 99 out of 100 want 6 or 8 or 10 one hour lessons and then they want to play like me....or better. The 6 or 8 or 10 one hour lessons is 99% of the lessons they'll need. But nothing replaces the hours at the table. Thousands of hours. When they realize "the real price" they quit.

Study up. Study your upper body. Your shoulders. When you get to the point that "I have to have it" you'll see things.

Until then you'll parrot.

[chesspirate]

When you get to the point that "I have to have it" you'll see things.
that sure sounds like just making something up to explain something you don't understand.

I'm no poster boy, i'm still working, so actually i appreciate the opportunity to compare my 2 frame clip to the Rose 2 frame clip. I've seen some crap in my swing for some time, but i'm working on it, not easy, but i'm not going to surrender and go make something up that isn't there either.

once again, when asked to actaully represent what you say you know, you hide behind arguments like the one you just laid out in your latest post.

y'know, for not liking the guy, you sure are becoming exactly like "the huckster". The only difference is he actually understands what it is he's talking about.

[chesspirate]

and just to add another question.

If i suddenly agreed with you about all your magical stuff and started defending it, wouldn't i just be a parrot?

do i have to make up my own way to not be a parrot? or are you once again just arguing to sound good instead of arguing facts... yeah, that's probably it.

[Jake Patterson]

You can memorize pretty well. You and the posse. It's easier. It's "your money's worth". That's why one buys.

But that doesn't work with hitting. Reminds me of the pool players that sign up for lessons. 99 out of 100 want 6 or 8 or 10 one hour lessons and then they want to play like me....or better. The 6 or 8 or 10 one hour lessons is 99% of the lessons they'll need. But nothing replaces the hours at the table. Thousands of hours. When they realize "the real price" they quit.

Study up. Study your upper body. Your shoulders. When you get to the point that "I have to have it" you'll see things.

Until then you'll parrot.

Why can't you just answer the question and point out the differences between the two clips? I would be very interested in the differences that you see. Other than the obvious age difference I see little. Your comments above bring little to the discussion at hand.

[TwinEngine]

If i suddenly agreed with you about all your magical stuff and started defending it, wouldn't i just be a parrot?

No.

You wouldn't be reciting what someone else told you.

You'd be saying what you fully know and understand and have experienced.

[TwinEngine]

You see no difference in your shoulders and Rose's shoulders in the two clips?

[TwinEngine]

Your comments above bring little to the discussion at hand.

Then you got what you paid for.

I'd say you and I are even then.

[TwinEngine]

Hint:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/mtucker.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiz.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/delgado8.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds4.gif

These hitters do things with the barrel that the hips can not do. It takes "another force" from "another source".

[chesspirate]

again, avoid all questions directed at you, then put some stuff up and say go ahead figure it out, if you don't agree you're wrong, parrot me, oh wait...

[TwinEngine]

Avoid? Nope.

Delay? Yep.

You've never even offered a suggestion. Nothing like...."they aren't level"..."they are level"..."they are rotating"...."they aren't rotating"....they're tilted"...."they didn't tilt".....nothing.

No suggestion at all.

Yes, I'm riddling you. Difference is there will be an answer given.

[chesspirate]

well, if you're so smart and know so much you should know what my answers are going to be about the Rose clip.

the shoulders are rotating in the swing plane.

[TwinEngine]

Yes they are.

How far have yours rotated?

[Ursa Major]

Ursa, to which "Greatest Drill in The World," are you referring to?
JakeMark H. replied: "Good call UM. I assume he's talking about Steve's drill lightheartedly named the WGD by I believe it was fungo. It's available on Steve's site."
Exactly, the point is to let the body turn more before the hands are released, and to keep the elbow drop connected to the shoulder drop.

Jake, if you've got access to Steve's site, his discussion of the drill is here (http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php/topic,33.0.html).

Wogdoggy, sorry to see that your thread has been hijacked. Guess that happens when Richard re-emerges.

Anyway, a new season is on the horizon and we again can live vicariously through the young hitters whose swing's we have dissected. Richard, your boy playing college ball again this year? (If I missed a thread on this point, forgive me.) If so, best of luck to him.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, if you've got access to Steve's site, his discussion of the drill is here (http://englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php/topic,33.0.html).

Got it - thanks.

[wogdoggy]

this thread really wasnt meant to be a fight between pcr and richard although every hitting thread seems to end up this way..I think matt benefited from steves tape,,I think I can get some good stuff from everybody here swingbuster,booth jake ursa etc..I dont want to say that I gave up on pcr ,,I just couldnt take junior to the next level without an on site instructor.

when i look at matts rotation from a full year earlier he has improved


BUT look how he fished out the low pitch..



http://www.esnips.com/doc/630b520c-580d-45e5-bd4d-f5ef18c36248/100_0323

[swingbuster]

Woggy ,

I am not about the guru war. I am about kids playing their best. I am pulling for all the Dads and their kids to find their BEST SWING

Good luck.

" When you are not practicing there is somebody that is: and when you meet him he will win"

I think you guys are going to out work the rest.

[chesspirate]

BUT look how he fished out the low pitch..
http://www.esnips.com/doc/630b520c-580d-45e5-bd4d-f5ef18c36248/100_0323
what's wrong with how he finished here?

[Jake Patterson]

Woggy ,

I am not about the guru war. I am about kids playing their best. I am pulling for all the Dads and their kids to find their BEST SWING

Good luck.
Ditto .

[TwinEngine]

Chess,

No comment on your degree of shoulder rotation?

[wogdoggy]

what's wrong with how he finished here?


He could get the low outside pitch there.

[chesspirate]

He could get the low outside pitch there.
he could. so what's wrong again? or was that a typo?

No comment on your degree of shoulder rotation?
seems about the same amount, close to 90 worth of movement roughly

[TwinEngine]

About the same? As Rose?

And, I can't tell from your clip, are you at contact or near it like Rose is? With Rose the ball is basically on his bat....but just before contact. Where is the ball in relation to your bat? My guess is you have another 6-8" or so to get to the ball. I could very well be wrong on that.

[chesspirate]

About the same? As Rose?

And, I can't tell from your clip, are you at contact or near it like Rose is? With Rose the ball is basically on his bat....but just before contact. Where is the ball in relation to your bat? My guess is you have another 6-8" or so to get to the ball.
it's pretty darn close, i hit this ball slightly left of center, Rose from the other side hit it dead center, so there is bound to be some difference.

[TwinEngine]

I take it you're not interested?

[chesspirate]

i answer a question you pose, then you say i must not be interested?

Please, honestly enlighten me, i don't get where you are coming from at all. I can't see it, and you're not pointing it out.

Whatever, take your time, keep getting your butt handed to you at eteamz and batspeed, and even over at shawns site, would on eh.com if you were still allowed there, and you are here again after already being banned once.

If you want to be taken seriously, then get serious and point out the differences, if you don't then i'll keep taking you for what you are, a joke.

[TwinEngine]

I asked you two or three questions. One about your shoulders. Two about the contact point.

Your answer is "it's pretty darn close".

Which question did you answer? Which did you not? Will you answer the others?

Going to work now. Will check in late tonight.

Don't tell me you are burns?:D :D

[Jake Patterson]

I asked you two or three questions. One about your shoulders. Two about the contact point.

Your answer is "it's pretty darn close".

Which question did you answer? Which did you not? Will you answer the others?

Twin, Richard, Whatever..
Participate on a positive basis or leave. We haven't had this cryptic nonsense for a long time and it brings no value to the process. No one here asked you to "Enlighten" us. If you have comments to bring to the table then please bring them.

[chesspirate]

i said "pretty darn close" to both questions, the shoulders and the contact point.

So, now that the clarification thing is done with, please come down and tell me what is different, i really want to know, untill you come out with it though, i just can't take you seriously.

[Mark H]

A little pissy today?

Well you can't say Richard doesn't understand self deprecating humor based on irony. Have to give him credit on that one. Pretty funny.

[Mark H]

Swingbuster's loading method is used by many major league hitters, and all of them hit with power. It is good to hear that you don't have a problem with it.:clapping

I"ve said the same thing many times but it doesn't matter, tomorrow I'll get misrepresented again. :)

[dougmac]

http://a995.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/12/l_c6df241c99262a25728a42ff288ff882.gif
pretty darn close for an amateur.


I don't think I have ever seen your swing Chesspirate. Would really like to see a full swing or two. If you don't want to post them you could e-mail them to me at doug5@sbcglobal.net

Thanks

[Jake Patterson]

I don't think I have ever seen your swing Chesspirate. Would really like to see a full swing or two. If you don't want to post them you could e-mail them to me at doug5@sbcglobal.net

Thanks
Chess, I would like to see the whole swing. It looks pretty good for an instructor.

[TwinEngine]

In my opinion your shoudlers and Rose's shoulders are not "pretty darn close". Neither is your barrel in relation to the shoulders.

Rose has already released his barrel and contact is being made deep in the zone for a hit to center field.

You still haven't made contact yet, you're still rotating the shoulders, haven't released the barrel yet, and when you hit the ball you'll be pushing through contact.....whether with rotation of the shoulders or the arms.

You're still flailing. Rose has already whipped the bat.

The axis of your bat's rotation is your spine. The axis of Rose's bat's rotation is his hands.

Rose will square the ball easier and earlier. You will slice the ball. Not as severe as a slice in golf. But definitely not square like mlb hitters. Rose will get much better compression.

The indicator is the arc the barrel makes "behind" the hitter. Rearward. Rose has a full arc behind him. In fact, he really can't see the bat out of the corner of his eye as he's swinging. You can. Because your arc is not really behind you. At least not like it is in good hitters. That is the part that PCR can not duplicate. That is why no one has produced a PCR swing making the barrel take the same path as a mlb player. It can't be done without the hands/forearms.

Rose's release is very quick. Very early.

Your release is very slow and very late. (relatively speaking....relative to the pitch) I'm not challenging your individual athleticism or your personal quickness. I'm talking about your mechanics.

Reason.....Rose is using the hands/forearms (Second Engine) to get early added batspeed and quickness. You are using rotation only.

This is a great example of the slow developing PCR swing. No quickness. No early batspeed. Therefore no adjustability.

With your PCR swing, you'll hit the snot out of a few balls and get a misread. It will seem right on those pitches. It seems right against a tee. It seems right against soft toss or easy bp. But, it is simply not possible to adjust to pitch location and speed with a PCR swing.

A PCR swing has no ability, no preparedness, to be able to drive the outside pitch opposite field and handle the inside pitch on any given pitch.

The degree of shoulder rotation that it takes to get the barrel up to speed, to be able to drive the ball is only achieved for the middle in pitch. There is no early speed to help with the outside pitch.

And, the amount of rotation it takes to get the barrel up to speed, and the length of time it takes to get there, means the hitter must start early. This puts his timing in jeopardy.

It means he will suffer two debilitating moves. Stare at the outside pitch for called strikes because you can't do anything with it. (the body knows you have to hit that ball deep but it can't get the barrel up to speed in that short of time/distance) And, pull off the ball because the time it takes to get the barrel up to speed means the shoulders will be turned too far and will be pulling the hands out of the hitzone. A right handed batters shoulders will take a "hard left" on every swing. This move, because of that shoulders connection to the lead arm, takes the hands/barrel out of the hitzone and pulls off the ball.

[Chris O'Leary]

I still disagree that the forearm rotation is being fueled by the forearms. It just doesn't make sense, the body is rotating and the bat is being pulled along for the ride, and the rotational forces bring the bat around, thus forcing the forearms to change thier position relative to the torso.

I agree.

What I see is a reaction to the rotation of the shoulders rather than something that the forearms are doing.

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm looking at the barrel and deciding what makes that happen. Watch the barrel's path. I've asked for 6 months now for a PCR swing that makes the barrel take that path.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rose1.gif

I will grant you that something is going on with the hands in this clip.

Watch the angle of the back elbow change from frame to frame. It's moving toward the pitcher as a result of the hands moving.

Some of this movement with the hands could be due to the location of the pitch, which was up and outside. Rose also strode fairly closed to hit this pitch, probably because the pitch was up and outside.

It could also be due to a reaction to the pitch. Maybe it was a change-up.

IOW, I don't think this necessarily makes the case that Rose was a linear hitter; just that he had to adjust to the location of the pitch.

Also, his shoulder tilt is different than ChessPirates in part due to the fact that the pitch was up in the strike zone.

[chesspirate]

In my opinion your shoudlers and Rose's shoulders are not "pretty darn close". Neither is your barrel in relation to the shoulders.

Rose has already released his barrel and contact is being made deep in the zone for a hit to center field.

You still haven't made contact yet, you're still rotating the shoulders, haven't released the barrel yet, and when you hit the ball you'll be pushing through contact.....whether with rotation of the shoulders or the arms.
i won't totally disagree with you, except that i can't see you you can tell there will most definately be a 'push' from this clip.

I'd also offer that pitch location, and the difference between the cages and a live enviornment could close the gap between these two swings, so i guess i'll have to get a shot from behind during a game (about two weeks away)

You're still flailing. Rose has already whipped the bat.
Can't argue this point in regards to these two clips.

The axis of your bat's rotation is your spine. The axis of Rose's bat's rotation is his hands.
I think Rose is around the spine, off a bit due to pitch location, wouldn't mind seeing something difinitive on that though.

Rose will square the ball easier and earlier. You will slice the ball. Not as severe as a slice in golf. But definitely not square like mlb hitters. Rose will get much better compression.
I can honestly say that my ball does not slice in either direction unless i get top hand dominant and i wrap the ball

The indicator is the arc the barrel makes "behind" the hitter. Rearward. Rose has a full arc behind him. In fact, he really can't see the bat out of the corner of his eye as he's swinging. You can. Because your arc is not really behind you. At least not like it is in good hitters. That is the part that PCR can not duplicate. That is why no one has produced a PCR swing making the barrel take the same path as a mlb player. It can't be done without the hands/forearms.
It's amazing that you can tell what each of us can see during our swings, very very perceptive of you. I think it's tough to tell for sure from my lower quality video from the rear, but i won't totally say you're out to lunch either. I will offer that it most likely has more to do with my less than optimal rotation pattern and my 'jaked up' shoulder tilt

Rose's release is very quick. Very early.

Your release is very slow and very late. (relatively speaking....relative to the pitch) I'm not challenging your individual athleticism or your personal quickness. I'm talking about your mechanics.
I could offer the old argument "he's a pro and i'm not" but that wouldn't be fair, considering i put my clip up as 'similar'.

Reason.....Rose is using the hands/forearms (Second Engine) to get early added batspeed and quickness. You are using rotation only.
I can tell you from knowing my own swing, that my problem has more to do with a lack of front arm tension than using my forearms to swivel. Here's the thing, most people out there can't see a difference between these two clips, or at least not that obvious of a difference, yet you are telling us that there is a huge difference and the only answer is swiveling forearms.. just doesn't add up for me.

This is a great example of the slow developing PCR swing. No quickness. No early batspeed. Therefore no adjustability.
To make that claim from these two 2frame clips alone is a horrendously misleading and wild claim.

With your PCR swing, you'll hit the snot out of a few balls and get a misread. It will seem right on those pitches. It seems right against a tee. It seems right against soft toss or easy bp. But, it is simply not possible to adjust to pitch location and speed with a PCR swing.
That's funny, because i've gained more 'adjustability' to pitch speed and movements since adapting PCR principles. And again, to make such a blanket statement like this is just silly.

A PCR swing has no ability, no preparedness, to be able to drive the outside pitch opposite field and handle the inside pitch on any given pitch.
are we talking about the differences between the clips, or are you just on your soapbox now?

The degree of shoulder rotation that it takes to get the barrel up to speed, to be able to drive the ball is only achieved for the middle in pitch. There is no early speed to help with the outside pitch.

And, the amount of rotation it takes to get the barrel up to speed, and the length of time it takes to get there, means the hitter must start early. This puts his timing in jeopardy.

It means he will suffer two debilitating moves. Stare at the outside pitch for called strikes because you can't do anything with it. (the body knows you have to hit that ball deep but it can't get the barrel up to speed in that short of time/distance) And, pull off the ball because the time it takes to get the barrel up to speed means the shoulders will be turned too far and will be pulling the hands out of the hitzone. A right handed batters shoulders will take a "hard left" on every swing. This move, because of that shoulders connection to the lead arm, takes the hands/barrel out of the hitzone and pulls off the ball.
this last part is all about the outside pitch, wich for me is a mental deal. I have become more of a pull hitter lately because i can help my team more that way, but believe you me that i can much better drive balls the other way now than before.. And it's funny you talk about early batspeed because just a week ago a good baseball friend of mine who doesn't care much about my interest in hitting said "man, the one thing about you vs. other guys that hit for some power is that your swing is so quick from the moment you 'go', there isn't any loop" take that for what it's worth.

Here's the real deal. You guys had some shortcomings in your hitting journey and for whatever reason you couldn't get it to all work out perfectly, so instead of working on finding the problems in his swing (wich were pointed out by a handfull of honestly caring individuals) you figured the PCR system must be wrong.
NO other options.
Then you come up with the 'swivel' idea (magically right after you got banned from EH.com) wich isn't necessarily all that crazy of an idea, but you put all the eggs in that one freakin basket, like it's the be all end all of the swing.
If that was all there was the pros wouldn't practice as much as they do, because with thier gifts and the perfection that is the second engine would be all that they needed.
So, if you think PCR failed you, fine, for any number of reasons it didn't work out, whatever. But your attack on PCR, and mainly Steve Englishbey to be exact, are not based on hitting fact or knowledge but just trying to make someone look bad, plain and simple.

I truly appreciate your last post as it was the closest thing to an 'answer' that you've served up even if it was laced with hate filled over reaching generalisations.

I wouldn't even mind your input or thoughts if you could get over your large egoed, agenda driven, smear campain (and check out my site by the way) bull crap.

If you want to talk hitting, welcome, honestly, but if you just want to argue for arguings sake and set up arguments and situations that make you look 'good' despite the information that comes out of your mouth, then just take a seat and deal with the few people that are members at your site, because if what you preach is anywhere near effective then your business will boom all on it's own. But if it's built on myth and theory with nothing able to truly back it up (as in understanding of how the body generates movement, and basics physics) you'll have to keep being a jerk trying to drum up business to get people over there.

I guess i'm a little jeckyl/hyde tonight.

[TwinEngine]

As I told Mark H.....if I had 30 minutes with you, and if you were open, I could demonstrate the difference and you would agree.

I've yet to have anyone trained with PCR, that I've spent time with, disagree with the Second Engine. And, many that have left EH.com are seeing the same things without me spending time with them.

I could list names. But, I suspect you know who they are.

No amount of rotation will rotate the barrel in the hands. Without the barrel rotating in the hands you jeopardizing your quickness. You're one of the few posters that still swing a bat actively. You should experiment with it and get it right. You will be amazed.

That last few paragraphs was not "just about the outside pitch". It is at the heart of the problem. Like I said....all is well off the tee, soft toss, bp.....but live hitting is another animal. And it's directly related to how far the shoulders must rotate in PCR to make the bat fly off the merry go round. There is not enough time for that and allow the adjustability needed to hit the top pitching at the athletes level.

As for your comments about who can see what when they are swinging....it is not clairvoyance. It is mechanics. When the Second Engine turns the barrel behind you you can't see it. When the PCR shoulders rotate the barrel to contact it's easily seen. You accuse me of not knowing/understanding PCR. Not true. I can easily accuse you of not knowing/understanding the Second Engine by your response to this point. If you are pushing, whether with flail, hands or arms through contact, which you are in your swing, you can see the bat out of the corner of your eye. If you've released the barrel in the arc behind you with the Second Engine, you can't see it.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujols10.gif

Pujols releases the barrel while it's still out of his vision.

You say I shouldn't judge your swings quickness compared to Rose. I'm not talking about frame count. I'm talking about the presence of early batspeed. When Rose has whipped and you are still flailing that is an obvious quickness issue.

I didn't say your ball sliced. I said your bat slices the ball. Meaning it doesn't square it completely. I even went a step further and said I didn't mean it like a golf slice. But, that's how you took it. The difference is the sound of the ball bat collision. That is one of the things 30 minutes with me would convince you of.

I can increase your decibels while decreasing your effort if need be. How loud would it be if no decrease in effort was neede.

Finally, tension in the lead arm is the standard PCR solution. I can't tell you how many times I was told that. It does not work. Try pronating the lead arm as you swing and see what happens.

[chesspirate]

while I appreciate the tone of your post, once again you are using clips that a semi-doctored to your agenda.

This Pujols clip is of a very inside pitch, and that leads to a swing vastly different than a swing geared toward the middle or away.

Oh, and i understood what you were getting at about 'slicing' it's just that usually the one creates the other to some degree.

either way, you haven't provided me with an understandable explanation of what exactly it is you're getting at, not exactly where in space, not exactly how, just some generalizations as far as i can find. and i've read your stickied posts on your old site, it just never made sense to me.

So, here we go. If you would be willing, i'd love to hear your best answer/explanation (again, but better) of what it is you are getting at. And the many ways it differs from "getting off the merry-go-round".

if you're willing to keep up the civil dialogue, i'm willing to listen. nothing more, nothing less.

[TwinEngine]

Pujols (http://recruit.hittingillustrated.com/Library.htm)

Take your pick. He can not see the barrel at launch because it is behind him.

He launches before he turns the corner. And I mean launch. Not running start.

[Mark H]

You're still flailing. Rose has already whipped the bat.

.

If you are following your teaching there can be no flail or whip. You can torque the bat around or push it around doing it your way but this eliminates the possibility of flail and whip by definition. I know you won't understand this but it's really for Chess and other's sake. Good luck this spring.

[TwinEngine]

Absolutely not.

In fact, it is you that doesn't understand how to do both.

I've never made the case that there is no flail. I've never made the case there is no whip. In fact, just the opposite.

I will make the case that you can not whip effectively without the Second Engine.

And it doesn't surprise me that all of you have spoken out against the Second Engine yet, still today, 6 months later, don't understand it.

You talk about misrepresentation all the time. YOU are the one constantly claiming I speak of one engine, handle torque, even though it's called Second Engine, as you just did again, when in fact I am the one promoting two and you are the one promoting one.

[Mark H]

Told you. :)

[Jake Patterson]

either way, you haven't provided me with an understandable explanation of what exactly it is you're getting at, not exactly where in space, not exactly how, just some generalizations as far as i can find. and i've read your stickied posts on your old site, it just never made sense to me.


I have to agree with Chess. I am not clear as to what it is exactlly that you call the second engine. I went back and re-read old posts and still don't quite get it. It would make for better discussion if you could make your position more clear for us laymen.

[TwinEngine]

You lost your head for a second didn't you.

You almost got in a hitting discussion.

But, of course you caught yourself.

Too dangerous. Exposure at risk.

I know.....good luck in the spring.

Won't be long until the masses get the picture.

[chesspirate]

okay, i'm here, and i'm listening. Give it your best explanation so that maybee I can understand what you're getting at.

[Mark H]

Jake,

There's a discussion of it on Shawn's site and on eteamz if you would like me to link.

[TwinEngine]

Early batspeed. Barrel arcing behind the hitter. It's in 99% of mlb hitter's swings and in 0% of PCR swings.

It can only be done with the hands which are driven by the forearms.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/mtucker.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds4.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujols7.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiz.gif

Watch the tip of their barrel at launch. It goes backward and it blurs at launch. The merry go round, shoulder rotational swing can not duplicate that. Impossible. Can't make it blur that early. Can't make it go in that direction.

Barrel blur at frame one.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

There's a discussion of it on Shawn's site and on eteamz if you would like me to link.

No .

[Mark H]

Won't be long until the masses get the picture.

Yeah, kind of like they got it on eteamz. :)

[Mark H]

No .

PM me if you want the link.

[chesspirate]

Barrel arcing behind the hitter....
It can only be done with the hands which are driven by the forearms.
C'mon, specifics. This is so general i could have 10 different looking swings with this 'cue'. Help me out here instead of just providing swing clips and saying "see, see" point something out.

Jake, you should consider the eteamz link.

[TwinEngine]

Get up out of your chair. Grab a bat. Make the barrel blur rearward in frame one. When you accomplish it you will be using your hands driven by the forearms rotation and the triangle rotation.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiztriangle.gif

The barrel is rotating around the hands, which are out over the plate some......the apex of the triangle.

In other words, there is no box. To have a box the lead upper arm needs to be up "in the way of" the hands. Mlb hitters do not do this.

[chesspirate]

if i try to do what you say (it's still way to general to do any good) the lead wrist angle breaks down, the hinge angle is lost, what's wrong?

[Jake Patterson]

PM me if you want the link.

Mark, I've read some of the discussion there and I feel like I'm wading through a pool of dung to get to the answer. All it would take is a couple of frames with the specifics highlighted to make all this easier to understand. Why we can't get there is beyond me. When this topic comes up it sounds like everyone argues in code - Richard, whether you accept it or not those who seem to understand do not agree, those of us who do not understand can't even test your theory. I agree some of this stuff is easier to demonstrate in person, but we do not have that luxury here. Maybe you and Brdn can make a short clip explaining the mechanics and merits of your position.

[TwinEngine]

Your mind is locked in two dimensions.

The world happens in 3 doesn't it?

[TwinEngine]

Mark, I've read some of the discussion there and I feel like I'm wading through a pool of dung to get to the answer. All it would take is a couple of frames with the specifics highlighted to make all this easier to understand. Why we can't get there is beyond me. When this topic comes up it sounds like everyone argues in code - Richard, whether you accept it or not those who seem to understand do not agree, those of us who do not understand can't even test your theory. I agree some of this stuff is easier to demonstrate in person, but we do not have that luxury here. Maybe you and Brdn can make a short clip explaining the mechanics and merits of your position.

Jake

With all due respect. What you just wrote is the dung.

If you can't understand to hold the bat out over the plate and rotate the barrel in the hands by rotating the forearms, I don't think the explanation, supported by clips, is the problem.

If you want to try that and then ask questions, just like chess did, I'll answer them. Otherwise, if this is all over your head, I can't help you.

[Mark H]

It IS wading through dung. Some threads seem to degenerate to that. Wonder what the common denominator is?

[chesspirate]

All it would take is a couple of frames with the specifics highlighted to make all this easier to understand. Why we can't get there is beyond me.
you're still being cryptic. "3 dimensions" isn't specific at all, c'mon, you say we haven't gotten it for 6 months, maybee there's a reason why. Lay it out!

[TwinEngine]

Mark,

Are you trying to confuse?

Are you in 2 dimensions also?

What is so hard about maintaining a hinge angle and rotating the forearms.

They are absolutely NOT mutually exclusive.

As a matter of fact the work very nice together.

[chesspirate]

we aren't getting it. a clip of one vs the other, performed by you preferably might help.. You say you know PCR so well, then you can put up what you think is a good PCR swing in this regard, plenty of posters to keep you honest on that one, then you post a clip of the swing with the second engine and show a difference. We can go forward from there.

[TwinEngine]

I have no quality PCR swings.

Mlb players don't do it.

Give me one.

[chesspirate]

i didn't qualify what type of PCR, i said you put a clip of yourself performing a PCR swing, then a 'second engine' swing.

I figure that's fair instead of playing around with pro's and going "see, see"

[Jake Patterson]

If you can't understand to hold the bat out over the plate and rotate the barrel in the hands by rotating the forearms, I don't think the explanation, supported by clips, is the problem.

If you want to try that and then ask questions, just like chess did, I'll answer them. Otherwise, if this is all over your head, I can't help you.

I have tried it and understand the barrel rotates at some point in order to complete/drive the swing. Without eventual wrist/forearm rotaton the swing is physically impossible to complete. What I don't understand is where exactly you feel that should happen as opposed to the PCR guys - what is different and why and why you feel your method is better.

[TwinEngine]

Here is a 3 dimensional forearm rotation that does not compromise the hinge angle (angle of lead forearm to bat)

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/step1.gif

[TwinEngine]

I have tried it and understand the barrel rotates at some point in order to complete/drive the swing. Without eventual wrist/forearm rotaton the swing is physically impossible to complete. What I don't understand is where exactly you feel that should happen as opposed to the PCR guys - what is different and why and why you feel your method is better.

It happens at launch....at "go".

Immediate and complete launch and spend at "go".

Remember, Second Engine refers to the unload not the load. Many different ways of loading it.

The Second Engine is better because it offers early batspeed and high adjustability. PCR offers neither.

[chesspirate]

how does this directly improve batspeed, bat/ball 'compression, sound off the bat, instant adjustability, and any number of other things you've ascribed this to?

kind of like weathervaning isn't it

[TwinEngine]

If you understood your buzz words I'd feel better about working with you.

Are you saying this girl is weathervaning?

[chesspirate]

they are your buzzwords, and i'm asking how the action posted above improves any of them.

Please, don't let me get in the way of you explaining your position.

I never got into Epstein, (one of the few, i know) but from the little i know, this just reminded me of it. That's all, i don't know enough about either to make a true comparison.

[TwinEngine]

Can I get a concession that it is possible to rotate the forearms and not compromise the hinge angle?

Here is Morneau, Jake.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/morneau4.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/morneau5.gif

Both swings launched with the Second Engine, forearm rotation, hands turning the barrel....at go.

They are launched almost identically even though the pitches are in different locations. He has no trouble moving the barrel to either.

This allows the arms/body/posture whatever it takes to move the moving arc in front of the ball.........high adjustability.

If the arms/shoulders, anything other than the hand are powering the barrel, you are very limited in how you can get the barrel in front of the ball.

[TwinEngine]

this just reminded me of it. That's all, i don't know enough about either to make a true comparison.

Weathervaning is not my buzzword.

This girl, doing nothing with her elbows, other than allowing the forearms to rotate, reminds you of weathervaning...which is all about the elbows and how they move?

Show me more effort to learn.

[Jake Patterson]

Here is a 3 dimensional forearm rotation that does not compromise the hinge angle (angle of lead forearm to bat)

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/step1.gif

Thanks. This may help my understanding...

Could the wrist hitters call their wrist action a second engine? Is this similar in principle (Not suggesting the two actions are the same) to what Virg and his likes promote?

[chesspirate]

i will concede that the action could sorta be taking place, but in no way am i convinced that this action is forced, or not attainable with PCR. Given the appropriate setup and forceful enough rotation, the lack of inertia of the bathead would create this apparent movement.

Besides, if it is taking place, it is a very very very small movement. I'm still trying to understand how this would make any noticable difference.

[Jake Patterson]

Can I get a concession that it is possible to rotate the forearms and not compromise the hinge angle?

I will concede I understand your point better. I think I need to go look at some clips to form any opinion.

[TwinEngine]

Thanks. This may help my understanding...

Could the wrist hitters call their wrist action a second engine? Is this similar in principle (Not suggesting the two actions are the same) to what Virg and his likes promote?

Wrist hitting refers to ulnar deviation.... a hammering type move. A push of the barrel forward with the wrists.

The Second Engine is forearm rotation, supination and pronation of the forearms which turns the barrel in an arc. It does not push the barrel forward.

Watch Morneau. You can see his barrel arc rearward immediately at launch. In both clips. In one of them his arms immediatley move the arc to the ball so it is not as pronounced. In the other it is very clear.

Just like this.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujols5.gif

That arcing rearward is early batspeed. It is joined with the hips at or near contact. It is very important to high level hitting.

[TwinEngine]

i will concede that the action could sorta be taking place, but in no way am i convinced that this action is forced, or not attainable with PCR. Given the appropriate setup and forceful enough rotation, the lack of inertia of the bathead would create this apparent movement.

Besides, if it is taking place, it is a very very very small movement. I'm still trying to understand how this would make any noticable difference.

It may only contribute 5% of total batspeed. I have no idea. I don't care how much. Nyman couldn't be more wrong on this issue.

The total contribution to batspeed is WAY overshadowed by the "early" batspeed that it forces to happen. Batspeed in frame one, behind the hitters head, creating the arc, that the hips join at or near contact.

Only this allows mlb hitters the adjustability they need to cover the zone, the speeds and the breaks.

Chess,

I await your PCR clip (no second engine allowed) showing the bat blurring rearward in frame one.

[jbooth]

Here is a 3 dimensional forearm rotation that does not compromise the hinge angle (angle of lead forearm to bat)

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/step1.gif

It simply amazes me that you think THAT movement is what MLB hitters do.

[chesspirate]

Only this allows mlb hitters the adjustability they need to cover the zone, the speeds and the breaks.

I await your PCR clip (no second engine allowed) showing the bat blurring rearward in frame one.
whoa, slow down there buddy. The burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.
You claim that the second engine does a bunch of stuff, but you haven't proven any of it yet.
So far you've identified a movement within the swing, but haven't been able to prove how it occurs, or if it really contributes to anything.
And no, i'm not claiming that PCR makes the bat blur, if you thought of implying that, because that take the focus off of everything that is important, and it's up to you to prove your point, not for me to disprove it, especially since i am only just grasping where you're going with this thing.

[jbooth]

Get up out of your chair. Grab a bat. Make the barrel blur rearward in frame one. When you accomplish it you will be using your hands driven by the forearms rotation and the triangle rotation.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiztriangle.gif

The barrel is rotating around the hands, which are out over the plate some......the apex of the triangle.




Nope. Not how they do it.

[jbooth]

Mark,

Are you trying to confuse?

Are you in 2 dimensions also?

What is so hard about maintaining a hinge angle and rotating the forearms.

They are absolutely NOT mutually exclusive.

As a matter of fact the work very nice together.

Yes, you can maintain a hinge angle and rotate the forearms, but that isn't what MLB hitters do. Your interpretation of their movement is flawed.

[TwinEngine]

in no way am i convinced that this action is forced, or not attainable with PCR. Given the appropriate setup and forceful enough rotation, the lack of inertia of the bathead would create this apparent movement.

If you're not convinced it can't be done then you should be able to create it....with PCR.

I've asked for it for 6 months. If it could be done, you'd think one of you would do it.

I can't create it with PCR. And you want me to post a clip of myself NOT being able to create it? That sounds like proof to you?

[TwinEngine]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rhowardrays.gif

Ryan Howard swiveling to the ball.

Watch the barrel.

[jbooth]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rhowardrays.gif

Ryan Howard swiveling to the ball.

Watch the barrel.

I watch the barrel, I watch the hands, I watch the forearms, I watch everything from as many angles as possible, and my conclusions are different from yours, and I am confident that my conclusions are correct and yours are not, but I'm not going to spend anytime debating with you. You're entitled to your opinion and people can judge for themselves. I've taken what you've presented with an open mind, and analyzed it, and I think you are wrong. That's MY opinion from MY conclusions based upon analysis of the swing trying to see what you see. I don't see it happening the way you see it.

I've asked 2 former minor league players, two former MLB players and a current AAA player if they, or anybody they've played with ever deliberately tried to get the bathead moving early, or apply force from the hands/arms to the bathead early, and they all gave an emphatic "NO."

Each one said they didn't do anything with the bathead at launch and, in fact, they said their concious thought was to NOT do anything with it. That's what "lagging the bathead" means. You leave it alone until everything else gets going, and you don't do much of anything with the hands until just before contact where many of them feel that they drive the bathead into the ball with the top hand. They feel/think that they leave the hands back, turn the shoulders, and then pull the knob around after shoulder rotation starts, and then throw the bathead into the ball.

They don't twist/swivel the bathead with the hands/forearms. I've tried to explain and demonstrate to you, in the past, how they do it, and you refuse to see it or believe me. That's your right, and you have a right to present your analysis and conclusions for others to consider, but you don't have a right to personally insult people just because they disagree with you.

[chesspirate]

the game is on.

http://a53.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/23/l_9d9541c4568dacf622d37b2c3586c7cc.gif
where is the forearm rotation moving the bat? I see the back elbow moving, with no transfer to the bathead, then the bat head moving at the same rate the shoulders rotate.

goodnight.

[TwinEngine]

I know drawing these line isn't easy.

But, why don't your lines stay on the body parts? Why is there no box maintenance? It's constantly changing shape.

It's because one of the lines doesn't exist. It's a PCR story.

See Oritz below. The triangle maintains it's shape pretty much all the way through the swing. It not only maintains it's shape it stays on the body parts. The only thing that changes is it's viewing angle. In the beginning the of the swing, the triangle is horizontal so the camera view makes it "look" different. When in fact, it is the same and is maintained pretty much throughout the swing. And, the triangle can be seen better and better as the swing progresses.

The hitters hands are "out over the plate. A triangle is formed from his hands through both forearms and the chest. This unit is very stable.....WAY more stable in a swing than is any box drawing. The forearms are rotated and the triangle is rotated AS the shoulders laterally tilt. THIS IS HUGE. They do not rotate.

Please get a bat, get in your stance and violently rotate your shoulders to execute a swing. Then, get in your stance and violently laterally tilt your shoulders. There is no denying which produces more energy. The lateral tilt wins hands down. The body can leverage that move much better than rotation.

The main reason for the "box" concept is PCR insists on shoulder rotation, and the lead arms connection to it, as
THE power source. They insist that the body is "inside" the swing arc. That the power source is "inside" the swing arc. It is not.

I don't have tiime right now to accurately draw a Pujols triangle. I'l do it later. Until then look at Ortiz.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiztriangle.gif

His hands are out in front of his body. His lead arm elbow is down. The hands stay out in front of the plate as he completes the vast majority of the swing. While they are out in front of his body, his barrel is arcing. It is arcing very fast. This means the hands must be turning the barrel because the lead arm is not being pulled by the shoulders. The shoulders are actually resisting rotation at this point. You may say....."yes the lead arm is being pulled by the shoulders...you can see it". To which I say....the shoulders are moving but they are not powering the swing. In this case, they are opening so he can get to this very inside pitch. Notice the lead elbow "jut" upward. This is the mechanism hitters use to keep shoulder rotation from pulling them off the ball. It is also the mechanism that transfers the hips energy into the forearms. If in fact his shoulders were rotating to supply power, and if in fact they were the source of that barrel arcing, that blur at frame one, they would have caused the "hard right" way sooner than what you see. They would have to do their "hard right" at initiation to have a chance at developing enough power to make the barrel blur in frame one. But, they can't do it. So, something else is going on. BTW, every PCR swing I've seen has the "hard right" at intiation. It has to. PCR teaches it. If shoulder rotation is powering the swing the lead shoulder must turn back. And it does in every PCR swing. In high level swings the shoulders first move is UP. The lateral tilt. The explosive lateral tilt that accompanies the forearm and triangle rotation.

If his timing on any given pitch was perfect, he would hit the ball at the botton of the triangle's rotation, deep in the zone, much like he's doing in this swing, BEFORE the hands take the "hard right" (lefty batter). The "hard right" will happen in most every swing eventually. The hips rotation is so powerful it will win and will force the shoulders to turn right. Good hitters do their best to control it....to keep it from happening. But the body's rotation will eventually win and pull the lead arm and create the "hard right". The ability to hit the ball before this happens, as it happens, or jsut after it happens but before it's too far, is a part of the high adjustability of the Second Engine.

However, timing is not perfect. He may be early and if he is, the ball will be stuck just after the "hard right" begins. If he's a little late, he'll hit the ball a little deeper. The Second Engine provides a timing margin of error that gives the hitter a chance. A margin of error that is not part of PCR.

Another great concept example is clearly seen in this swing. This swing is launched by immediate and complete launch and spend while the barrel is behind him and nearly vertical. Notice the early bat blur. The swing is already launched. It is already arcing. Their is a short crescendo of power......while the barrel is still behind the hitter. Then, all energizing is done. It has already taken place. The barrel has been whipped. It has cusped. What he's doing from that point on is getting the arc in front of the ball.

Example: A ball on a string. Twirl it so the ball gets into an arc. Get it moving fast. Now, move the arc in front of an object to strike that object. That bears a loose resemblance to what underlys the high level swing.

[chesspirate]

now you're just being dishonest, or seeing what you want to see, either way. I wasn't drawing a box! The blue lines are drawn from each shoulder to each elbow, then from the elbow to the wrist, this was to show his back arm moving without the front moving in a reactive manner, and the bat not moving either.

And why miss the shoulder line? The bat relative to the shoulder line stays close to 90 until the bat starts to unhinge into the ball.

What would be the point of drawing a box? Maybee i should redraw it with just the shoulder line and the line on the bat.

[TwinEngine]

Not being dishonest. If I misinterpreted your drawing as a box I apologize.

Your question was "Where is the forearm rotation moving the barrel".

It's right in front of you. The forearms supinate and pronate AS the triangle rotates. You have to see the triangle rotating. The hands are the apex. The are out over the plate. The lead elbow is going up and the rear elbow is going down. They are rotating about the hands. That is one of the three moves of the Second Engine. (forearms, triangle, lateral shoulder tilt)

It helps to understand the diagonal swing plane to get a clear understanding of what is taking place. The swing plane is not "around the shoulders" like PCR wants you to believe. If that were the case the swing plane would have to be horizontal. Pujols swing plane is diagonal. So is Oritz's. That means the bat is being swing from high to low on a diagonal. If you had a pitchers view, it would go from high and in on the ESPN K Zone to low and away. Diagonal.

Diagonal plane...

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds30alr.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/delgado7.gif

Bonds is slightly early and hits the ball just after the "hard right". Delgado is pretty much on time and hits the ball at the bottom of his diagonal swing arc prior to the "hard right". BTW, Delgado is demonstrating the adjustability of the Second Engine. He's lowering the arc, that was created way up stream, to the low ball location, without interrupting the arc. The Second Engine, operating in the diagonal swing plane can make adjustments to almost every pitch location because the swing plane is "outside the body"...."outside the shoulders". Adjusting PCR shoulder turn swing horizontal swing plane is very limited. You can't adjust very well for height with a horizontal swing plane. Just can't be done. The diagonal plane is highly adjustable with the hand/arms/posture all while not interfering with the speed of the arc.

You must understand that the body is not "inside" the swing arc. It (the hips) power it. Along with the Second Engine. But it doesn't do it from "inside" the swing plane. The swing plane is in front of the body and the body's energy is supplied to it through the hands through the rotating forearms/traingle.

[TwinEngine]

the bat head moving at the same rate the shoulders rotate.

Nope. Shoulder's aren't rotating. They have laterally tilted. The hips are rotating. And this lateral tilt is very explosive. So, yes it is involved in moving the barrel. And yes, the barrel is moving with the shoulder's TILT. Along with the triangle and forearm rotation that occurs at the same time.

At some point you've got a blue line on each of Pujols forearms. Then it goes away. Why? Continue them and you'll see the triangle rotating as the hands stay out over the plate.

[TwinEngine]

If I can get a concession on the diagonal swing plane I can not only lead you to the beer (water), you'll drink, and I'll have you intoxicated soon.:D

Meaning, you'll start to see how it all comes together and you'll want more info.

In person, by now, I'd have your bat making a sound it has never made before. And you'd be putting in less effort.

[chesspirate]

the lines on Pujols forearms don't disapear, the rear one gets hidden as it drops and the front arm starts to straighten, so the angle there changes.

But again, you've trying to confuse people with a lot of different thoughts at the same time, so i'll go back to the shoulders/bat correlation with the clip you provided.
http://a365.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/m_048a72342e15c1e2fc85e0b2d9d40314.gif

and the bat doesn't blur untill the bat is on the way, not immediately like you propose.

gotta go to work now.

[TwinEngine]

What's your point? I didn't say there is no shoulder/bat correlation.

I said the shoulders are not rotating...they are laterally tilting.

Finally, if you raise the rear elbow high enough, like Delgado, it almost has to lower some before you'll see barrel movement. You'll have to ask them why they raise so high. I believe its for a "running start".

Here's another with the "extreme" rear elbow.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/rhoward10.gif

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds30alr.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds20alr.gif

This guy's bat doesn't blur at frame one of movement but it does at frame one of launch. Be careful when you study hitters who get a running start with their barrel.

Finally, if you make your clips small enough and play them slow enough, nothing will blur.:D

[TwinEngine]

Since I've overloaded you...you pick a specific topic regarding the Second Engine. Ask a queston. I'll answer it as concise as I can. You can ask followup questions. I'll answer them. Then, we'll go to the next topic.

Deal?

[tadlock11]

2E - I wouldn't pat myself on the back so quickly thinking you've "overloaded" him. Chess is not only a player (he who steps in the batters box), but an adamant student of the swing. He merely has to go to a job today.
The past few months I have been reading just about every thread on the many sites this discussion has gone on for and for the life of me don't know why I've decided to put my foot in the pool full of sharks. :ughh (guess it's better there than in my mouth).
With your seconde engine theory bypassing the shoulders, are you saying that you DO believe that the swing is generated in the pelvic region (middle), then by-passes the shoulders and the forearms pick up the slack and continue?
If so, I have to disagree. My understanding of an efficient swing is one generated in the pelvic/middle/lower torso region, transferred with torsion through the shoulders (tension created in the arms reducing the slack in the pelvic to shoulder seperation). From there, the "engine" has started the swing. The "P" in "PCR", from what I understand would be a tilt that gets the shoulders in a diagnal position for the hitter to connect the bat to body and release in the shoulders momentum path. The "C" in "PCR" is now how that rotational/angular momentum transfers from the middle out to the bat head. Once the kinetic konnection has made it's way beyond the shoulders, released throught forearms - wrist - and out to the bat head: getting off the merry-go-round.
A simple way that I've been using to explain this to 11-12 year olds is to the think of the bodily connection to the bat in a manner of the domino effect. From what I can get out of the 2nd engine is that within the chain of dominos, you are taking a few of them out of the middle of the chain, then restarting. May be a little off as an analogy Re: 2E but that's how it reads in my mind.
Not sure if you remember me or not, but I am one that not only has two sons that are in the learning and molding phases of their baseball lives, but also coach a little league (11-12 YO) team as well as play the game myself with a bunch of washed out college players. Almost on a daily basis do some kind of swinging a bat - off machine, Tee, heavy bag or dry. I'll admit that I have tried many of the things I've read on the many boards I reads but have found nothing that even comes close to the way Steve Englishbey teaches. I know you think there may be revision, but from day one working with him, he had told me once you get beyond the foundational swing, there are variations (however small) in loading patterns. - [not a direct quote but paraphrased to my best recollection].
We have been documenting our journey here: http://www.esnips.com/user/tadlock11 Some of the clips are a few years old and they run up to last year. Soon I will be putting up some recent clips but by far the ones on there are not perfect but part of the journey.

[wogdoggy]

tad you left the wrong clip

[tadlock11]

tad you left the wrong clip
That happens quite often - Thanks. Hopefully it's fixed now. That link should go to my folders. If not, well darnit, go to esnips and my username there is also tadlock11. :grouchy

[TwinEngine]

But again, you've trying to confuse people with a lot of different thoughts at the same time, so i'll go back to the shoulders/bat correlation with the clip you provided.


I was just responding to this.

My previous post did go into quite a bit of detail.

I'm happy to take it one thought/question/issue at a time.

[TwinEngine]

With your seconde engine theory bypassing the shoulders, are you saying that you DO believe that the swing is generated in the pelvic region (middle), then by-passes the shoulders and the forearms pick up the slack and continue?

Kind of. There are two engines. I'm usually accused of having only one, the hands/forearms. Yes, there are two. One is even bigger than the other. I'm not sure how much.

Engine #1 starts and works up to speed.

Engine #2 starts and works up to speed.

Which starts first is an interesting discussion. If you eliminate loading from the discussion I think everyone would agree that the hips move/rotate forward before the hands forearms move/rotate foreward. But if you put loading into the equation you can easily claim the hands/forearms start at least at the same time as the hips.

The two engines are both working against the shoulders to get up to speed. The shoulders provide a somewhat stationery platform (from a rotation standpoint) for them to work from. They provide resistance for them to work against. They keep from rotating by laterally tilting. Once lateral tilt is achieved they have connected to the body and will rotate with the hips but THEY ARE NOT ROTATING INDEPENDENTLY. THEY ARE SIMPLY MOVING WITH THE HIPS ROTATION. There is no transfer of energy in a kinetic chain sense from the hips to the shoulders....and then from the shoulders through the arms and to the hands...handle...barrel.

While that may be how the body generates max power, it is too slow developing, and too molasses-like compared to the speed and quickness necessary to hit top pitching. The Second Engine offers that in such a way as to allow a running start of both the engines with the energy of both combined into a sudden cusp.

When both engines are working against the shoulders in opposite directions....barrel is going backward...hips are rotating open, a build up of pressure/energy occurs in the shoulder area as they resist. During this resistance, as the barrel turns the corner from it's rearward arc, and as the shoulders laterally tilt, you can feel the forearms receive the hips energy. The bypass. Eventually they can not resist any longer. There is a stretch which can't be held and a burst occurs. Energy transfers immediately to what is already working.......the forearms....and the barrel is energized.

It is a cusp. There is no cusp without resistance.

In an earlier post I asked a poster to get in his stance and violently rotate his shoulders (as if to hit a ball). Then get in your stance and violently laterally tilt the shoulders and report back which is the quicker, cleaner, crisper, more explosive move. It's not even close. The lateral tilt move is highly leveraged compared to the sloppy shoulder rotation.

IMO there are two things that are undeniable. The vast majority of Mlb hitter's bats blur rearward in frame one. And, mlb hitter's bodys are not "inside" their barrel's swing plane. Their swing plane is diagonal and in front of them. Video is real clear on both issues.

The final thing that is clear to me is PCR has no answer for either.

[tadlock11]

There is no transfer of energy in a kinetic chain sense from the hips to the shoulders....and then from the shoulders through the arms and to the hands...handle...barrel.

While that may be how the body generates max power, it is too slow developing, and too molasses-like compared to the speed and quickness necessary to hit top pitching. The Second Engine offers that in such a way as to allow a running start of both the engines with the energy of both combined into a sudden cusp.

Again I may be misunderstanding this, but if you believe the first part of your quote, why not start in an open position (belt buckle already rotated to pitcher or beyond)? This would allow superb quickness.
I get that 11-12 year olds aren't facing elite pitching just yet, but over the past few weeks working with them and their "core" rotation, it has created a problem. That problem being that they are now way ahead of pitches. I'm guessing that this new swing IS in fact creating a quicker way to get the bat to the ball via a connected swing. Now they are in a position that they have more time to read the pitch.
They began with the "anti-trapping" drill, which (correct me if I'm wrong) you said is what LED you to discover your 2E theory.
Doing this drill, you HAVE to use your body for "max power". I'm not disputing that while the torso is generating the power, getting ready to expend it to the distal segments, they (distal segments) may be preparing to recieve and use the energy - by pronating/suppinating (which may be getting back to the tilt/posture issue).

There are periods that with my son(s), we have to go back and eliminate the loading phase. Especially my oldest, as he gets to a point of having a lot of confidence in his swing, he starts to do all kinds of whacky stuff. For a short time, we tried Tip N Rip running start. Great, but it created other inefficiencies and I realized he wasn't ready for that at this point. He needed to just keep doing the "base" swing, enough to where it is habit, then perhaps we'll play around with different loading patterns.
My youngest, who is probably out weighed by his bat, is in a position that he has no choice but use his body to swing the bat. In the clips of him, you can see how he struggles mightily when a DC (disconnected) swing is performed. When I think of the second engine, that is what comes to mind.

IMO there are two things that are undeniable. The vast majority of Mlb hitter's bats blur rearward in frame one. And, mlb hitter's bodys are not "inside" their barrel's swing plane. Their swing plane is diagonal and in front of them. Video is real clear on both issues.
"undeniable" perhaps, but how it happens is what we cannot agree on.
The swing plane, to me is that imaginary disc (as in the Nyman model) that disects the body at the shoulders. It runs perpendicular or 90* angle out from the spine. When tilted, this swing plane when looked at from the pitchers viewpoint, would in fact appear diagonal. I'm no PCR spokesperson, but is this an issue? Also with that being said, and my belief that the swing plane is indefinite, the body would be "inside" the swing plane.

[TwinEngine]

Again I may be misunderstanding this, but if you believe the first part of your quote, why not start in an open position (belt buckle already rotated to pitcher or beyond)?

Because your swing direction would be wrong and because you need momentum. BTW, that is roughly the position of the hips when they fire.:D

This would allow superb quickness.

No it wouldn't

I'm guessing that this new swing IS in fact creating a quicker way

Quicker than what? What they used to do? Very possible. Don't misread entering and leaving the zone quickly as "useable quickness". If their lead shoulder is the connection to that quickness they will suffer.

They began with the "anti-trapping" drill, which (correct me if I'm wrong) you said is what LED you to discover your 2E theory.

Bastardizing the anti-trap drill allowed me to find the Second Engine. I was not doing it like it was prescribed when I made my discovery. But, I was using the same general setup......hands WAY out away from the body.


Doing this drill, you HAVE to use your body for "max power".

Are you accusing me of one engine again? That seems to be "the move".

I dare you to hold your hands out like in the anti-trap drill and aggressively swing at a pitch by rotating the forearms. If you don't feel the energy go directly from the hips into the rotating forearms I'll accuse you of being overly religious. :D It's there. It's real. To rotate the forearms efficiently you can not rotate the shoulders. It's a very sloppy move if the shoulders are rotating. When you don't rotate the shoulders the hips energy goes directly into the already moving part.....the forearms.
you can see how he struggles mightily when a DC (disconnected) swing is performed. When I think of the second engine, that is what comes to mind.

Only out of ignorance. The Second Engine, the forearm rotation part, creates instantaneous connection. Automatic connection. Automatic slop remover. Automatically ready to receive energy from the hips.

The swing plane, to me is that imaginary disc (as in the Nyman model) that disects the body at the shoulders. It runs perpendicular or 90* angle out from the spine. When tilted, this swing plane when looked at from the pitchers viewpoint, would in fact appear diagonal. I'm no PCR spokesperson, but is this an issue? Also with that being said, and my belief that the swing plane is indefinite, the body would be "inside" the swing plane.

My "hot button" has been hit. The Nyman swing plane simulations are some of his worst work or most deceitful work. I'll let you decide which.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/swingplane2.gif

The path of the barrel that he represents here is founded in his reading. Not in his study of mlb hitters. Virtually no mlb hitter's barrel will take the path he has shown.

And, virtually no mlb hitters lead shoulder works like he shows.

And, virtually no mlb hitters swing without upper/lower separation.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiz.gif

You're going to have to study close, but this clip of Ortiz is light years from the simulation. Ortiz's plane is diagonal....out in front of his body....not around his body.

Why when this topic is discussed is the very evidence of the Second Engine overlooked, brushed aside, never talked about, kepted hush hush..........no matter how many times I bring it up........Explain the barrel arc rearward behind the hitter.

That simply can not happen without forearm pronation/supination.

[jbooth]

The two engines are both working against the shoulders to get up to speed. The shoulders provide a somewhat stationery platform (from a rotation standpoint) for them to work from. They provide resistance for them to work against. They keep from rotating by laterally tilting. Once lateral tilt is achieved they have connected to the body and will rotate with the hips but THEY ARE NOT ROTATING INDEPENDENTLY. THEY ARE SIMPLY MOVING WITH THE HIPS ROTATION. There is no transfer of energy in a kinetic chain sense from the hips to the shoulders....and then from the shoulders through the arms and to the hands...handle...barrel.

You are kind of on the right track, but from the point of view of student of kinesiology, your statements are very much incorrect. It's a fairly good description from a layman's point of view, however inaccurate, from a kinesiologist's proof of fact. But, if you can make it work, fine.

While that may be how the body generates max power, it is too slow developing, and too molasses-like compared to the speed and quickness necessary to hit top pitching. The Second Engine offers that in such a way as to allow a running start of both the engines with the energy of both combined into a sudden cusp.

Since you don't correctly understand how the body moves, your statement is your uneducated opinion, that conflicts with scientific fact. But again, if you can communicate the move to a student and it helps, then fine.

When both engines are working against the shoulders in opposite directions....barrel is going backward...hips are rotating open, a build up of pressure/energy occurs in the shoulder area as they resist. During this resistance, as the barrel turns the corner from it's rearward arc, and as the shoulders laterally tilt, you can feel the forearms receive the hips energy. The bypass. Eventually they can not resist any longer. There is a stretch which can't be held and a burst occurs. Energy transfers immediately to what is already working.......the forearms....and the barrel is energized.

Again, a fair layman's description. I honestly believe that you (Richard) may be able to teach some students who are in person with you, to hit the ball harder, regardless of the fact that how you think it works is incorrect. You're close on some things, but not on others.

And, for discussion purposes with me, don't use PCR as your point of debate. You know that from the time we met, I had, and still have, some disagreements with the die hard PCR people.

What you describe, from my understanding of what you say, is closer to what Epstein teaches, than anything else. And, I was taught by Epstein. I have a couple of MINOR disagreements with Epstein, but after studying the swing diligently after having taken his instruction, and then read Nyman's stuff, and Englishbey, and you. Epstein, has it down pretty darn well. After all, he played as a starter 9 years in MLB, and spent a lot of time with Ted Williams, picking Ted's brain. And Ted wasn't your typical former player then teacher. He studied how he did it and analyzed why it worked. Although, having been a player doesn't guarantee that you understand it, or can teach it, I think Mike has done better than any other former player that I know of.

Your theory contradicts what he, and other players say, it contradicts kinesiological studies, and it contradicts what "I" see (that doesn't mean I'm right), but I don't see what you see when I look at the swing and apply the knowledge that I DO have, of physics and anatomy.

However, if you or I, or anybody else, can get our students to mimic the swing that we all see, and get the ball jumping off the bat, it doesn't matter who is right scientifically. Pro instructors rarely teach from a scientific point of view. They teach what they THINK works. The REAL problem is; most amateur hitting instructors get the student to swing in a manner that doesn't even come close to matching the MLB swing. They use words and drills that create a swing that isn't anything like the MLB swing. THAT, is a huge problem. If your descriptions and teaching method can create a succesful hitter, then great, more power to you, keep it up. But, I know that I have had a lot of success with my method, so I see no reason to change.

[TwinEngine]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/mtucker.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/edmonds3.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiz.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/delgado5.gif

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/bonds4.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujols7.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/manny3.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/morneau5.gif

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/tedbp1.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/wright2.gif




Over and over and over.

Hitter after hitter after hitter.

The barrel goes rearward at launch.

The forearms have to rotate.

Hip turn can not rotate the forearms.

Must be two engines.

[Chris O'Leary]

Over and over and over.

Hitter after hitter after hitter.

The barrel goes rearward at launch.

The forearms have to rotate.

Hip turn can not rotate the forearms.

Must be two engines.

I'm not arguing whether there are two engines or not (I haven't made up my mind yet).

However, I don't view the barrel going rearward at launch as being proof that there are two engines. Instead, I view the barrel going rearward as just a demonstration of the concept of inertia.

It's the same thing that happens when a pitcher's shoulders start to turn; their Pitching Arm Side (aka PAS) upper arm externally rotates 90 and their PAS forearm lays back.

Maybe there is indeed a second engine, but IMO the laying back of the bat into the lag position isn't the place to look for it.

P.S. The swing plane being perpendicular to the spine is another example of a principle of physics at work.

[TwinEngine]

Instead, I view the barrel going rearward as just a demonstration of the concept of inertia.

Try to duplicate the move.

Report back what you have to do to make your barrel do what is shown at the speed shown.

PCR will do the inertia thing. It won't do what the above hitter's barrels are doing.

[jbooth]

Over and over and over.

Hitter after hitter after hitter.

The barrel goes rearward at launch.

I guess we need to define where "launch" starts, but of course the barrel goes rearward in the swing. It goes in an arc. That's like saying pitcher after pitcher, the ball goes toward the plate at release.

The forearms have to rotate.

I don't like the term "rotate" but, yes, they do change position/angle, but it is simply to set direction for the bathead arc, it isn't an action that is a power source.

Hip turn can not rotate the forearms.

Of course not, but that's like saying wiggling your toes, cannot move your fingers.

Must be two engines.

No, not necessarily. There are two separate actions, but they aren't powered entirely separately, there IS a relationship.

[TwinEngine]

Duplicate the move to the degree and direction as shown above.

Let us know.

[NewbieBBDad]

I see the hips providing the initial thrust of the bat and the arms taking over as the body moves the belly button to face the pitcher.

The initial blurring isn't coming from the forearms, its the hips. I can blur the bat rearward on hips alone.

In any case, it makes no sense for a batter to commit so early with the arms. The arms go last because otherwise it would be impossible to adjust to the location of the ball.

[TwinEngine]

Post your clip.

[Mark H]

Here's a clip that might help the discussion.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/forums/richieVsteve.gif

[TwinEngine]

Nice clip.

One of these two guy's lead arm and lead shoulder resembles this lead arm and shoulder...

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/edgar.gif

...and it ain't the guy in black.

[chesspirate]

okay, now you're really stretching it.

That clip is of Edgar Martinez doing a drill almost nobody else does (hit live BP with the front arm only, with a donut on the bat). His lower body action is completely different than his game swing, mainly the sliding forward. To use this clip is extremely misleading, no matter what you would be trying to prove. I wouldn't use that clip to try to prove anything.

To say that in this clip Edgar is actively rotating the forearm to make the bat move is histerical.

Again, i'm not saying that the forearms don't 'move' per se, they aren't set in concrete or anything,(i think your idea of 'the box' is a little off) but we've got the little phrase "the wrist bones' connected to the forearm bone, the forearm bones' connected to the elbow bone..." and all that.

What i'm getting at, is that the motion you think you're seeing is starting somewhere else, being driven, if you will, somewhere else.

Yes, the forearms (as they are being described here) are physically capable of 'rotating' a small degree buy they just can't do what you are proposing they do.

(and by the way, we are getting far far away from proper descriptions of the body and how movement is created in this discussion wich i've asserted before, and JBooth mentioned previously here) we're really talking about a 'feeling' you've got, and you 'see' something in all these clips, and you are misinterpreting that movement.

The biggest problem i'm running into is that you can't physically (and i don't care what you "feel") 'bypass' the shoulders.

The body can not do that.

You can say that the shoulders don't move on the same plane as the hips rotation, and thusly the bat is moving in a different manner than the SETPRO simulation, if you want to try and argue from that angle (it'd be better than what you've got now) But to try and explain any kind of shoulder tilt, or setting of the swing plane, or lifting/setting/or just 'playing with' the box, is silly.

I'm not at my home computer, but i will be soon, i'll put up some more fun pictures with drawings. I'll make them bigger if i can, i may have the ability, but not the hosting space.

You are pointing at one action the barrell makes, and saying that only one thing can do this.
Then you say "PCR" can't do this, while using clips of Major League Hitters as the examples, BUT by the way you've crafted your stance and argument, we can't point at the same clips and say "you're wrong", we have to produce a clip of a student as our 'proof'. In effect, you've taken sole ownership of those clips, and assumed your definition of what you see as correct as the only answer. That is horribly unfair and misleading, that is why we don't produce clips for you, we can see what you're setting up. So, I look at the MLB clips and say "you're wrong", end of that.

If this were Mythbusters the T.V. show, and i was the host, i'd say "this myth is busted".

Like i said, when i get home i'll cook something special up just for you.

[TwinEngine]

So.....

Edgar is practicing something irrelevant to his swing. Just wasting time I guess.

The forearms can't do what only the forearms can do.

It's my fault mlb players don't PCR therefore you can't use them.

And, you're going to "cook" something up for us.

How many course is this meal?

I really think its time for you to tag.

P.S. I highly recommend you do something about your money problem.:D

[jbooth]

So.....

Edgar is practicing something irrelevant to his swing. Just wasting time I guess.

The forearms can't do what only the forearms can do.

It's my fault mlb players don't PCR therefore you can't use them.

And, you're going to "cook" something up for us.

How many course is this meal?

I really think its time for you to tag.

P.S. I highly recommend you do something about your money problem.:D

Do you have a quote from Edgar himself as to exactly what thoughts he has in mind while doing this drill? Or, IOW, what mechanical move he is trying to ingrain with this drill? Do you know for a fact that it is to build forearm ROTATION strength? How do you know what he is trying to accomplish with this drill?

[TwinEngine]

I said it is a lead arm one arm drill.

My biggest clue was the lead arm is the only arm holding on to the bat.

[jbooth]

I said it is a lead arm one arm drill.

My biggest clue was the lead arm is the only arm holding on to the bat.

Yeah, it's a one arm drill, designed to improve what? Grip strength, forearm strength, a feeling of moving the handle? Who knows what he is thinking, or working on? Congratulations on determining that he swings a weighted bat one-handed. Now, tell us for what specific purpose.

How do you know he doesn't do it to get the feeling of leaving the heavy part alone until everything else can get momentum into moving it? I doubt that he was trying to develop strength in his forearm to force the heavy head around with arm power, but I'm just guessing. I would really like to know what he says he is trying to feel.

[Mark H]

Epstein? Sit on the back foot and spin with the bat on your shoulder Epstein? Cue the twilight zone music.

[jbooth]

Epstein? Sit on the back foot and spin with the bat on your shoulder Epstein? Cue the twilight zone music.

Yes, the lean back and rotate on the back foot is one of the big things I disagreed with him on. I debated with him on that from the day I first met him. The bat on the shoulder is just a way to learn to lag the bathead and learn to whip the bathead from body rotation. He doesn't expect you to make that your game swing. Once you learn to rotate the bathead, then you create whatever style and/or hand set that you like.

[dougmac]

Once you learn to sit on your back foot and spin, you then become..........a guy that sits on his back foot and spins. Of course, in the game the student will become Ted Williams.;)

[Mark H]

Nice clip.

One of these two guy's lead arm and lead shoulder resembles this lead arm and shoulder...

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/edgar.gif

.

In the sense that Rosie resembles Jennifer Aniston, your one handed swing resembles Edgar M's swing. Sure.

[Mark H]

Yes, the lean back and rotate on the back foot is one of the big things I disagreed with him on. I debated with him on that from the day I first met him. The bat on the shoulder is just a way to learn to lag the bathead and learn to whip the bathead from body rotation. He doesn't expect you to make that your game swing. Once you learn to rotate the bathead, then you create whatever style and/or hand set that you like.

I don't have a problem with the bat on the shoulder as a training step but none of that bears any resemblance I can see to Richard's swiveling theory. And if you take away Epstein's drills teaching sit back and spin on the back foot, about all that's left are a lot of excellent ideas about the mental game.

[chesspirate]

So.....

Edgar is practicing something irrelevant to his swing. Just wasting time I guess.

The forearms can't do what only the forearms can do.

It's my fault mlb players don't PCR therefore you can't use them.

And, you're going to "cook" something up for us.

How many course is this meal?

I really think its time for you to tag.

P.S. I highly recommend you do something about your money problem.:D
you know how to argue on the internet, i'll give you that. I basically put out a lot of stuff, busted up your theory pretty good (yes i'm boasting, i feel that good) and you avoid that, and come up with a set of questions to divert everyones attention.
I'll just reason that my last post was sufficient enough to rest on, so i'll go ahead an answer your questions.


Edgar is practicing something irrelevant to his swing. Just wasting time I guess.
I think Mark and Jim gave very good reasons why this swing can not be used to show the second engine, don't try to play it off. You said "One of these two guy's lead arm and lead shoulder resembles this lead arm and shoulder" trying to imply that you and Edgar are doing the same thing, in your mind using the "second engine" but this for any number of reasons just isn't so.

It's my fault mlb players don't PCR therefore you can't use them
you argue better than you read. What i was getting at (and you very well know) is that you are setting up your argument in such a way, that prohibits honest debate. Something is happening in these clips, you are very wrong in how you think this takes place, yet you scream and scream that it's the only way it could happen, (based on what understanding of human movement by the way?) and then go on and demand a "PCR" clip doing this. You just showed the PCR clips doing this, you just don't get it.

And, you're going to "cook" something up for us.
I was using the word 'cook' in the sense of doing work at creating a clip with some helpful lines drawn, (yet another one), But, since you took it the way you did, i'll go ahead and refrain from posting anything you are thinking of as "cooked up".

I really think its time for you to tag.
why oh why would i want to let you off the mat?
just because you're wriggling, kicking and screaming doesn't mean you're winning.

and lastly, i don't get the comment on my "money problem", so lets just stick to you being wrong still.

[TwinEngine]

So much for my offer of one issue at a time I guess.

Please show me where you've "roughed me up"

So far the extent of your evidence is "it doesn't happen like that".

I'm waiting for a clip....from anyone....demonstrating the proper rearward barrel path that blurs in frame one.

As for your money, that's a witty way my friend, who also owns his own business, expresses people who have jobs.

His point being if they didn't have a money problem they wouldn't have a job.

I know...some people like their jobs. Just a little wit.

[chesspirate]

I'm waiting for a clip....from anyone....demonstrating the proper rearward barrel path that blurs in frame one.
I offer up as evidence, all the clips you've posted, simply because they show great mechanics and no forced forearm rotation action, and you're just making it up.

You say it's there. I say it's not. You've asserted there is something 'more' to the swing, and it's up to you to prove it, not just sit back and say "can't you see it?"

I've posted up two different visuals showing the bat does not move backward when you say it does, and independant of the shoulders.

[TwinEngine]

Clip please.

[Mark H]

Pretty funny stuff. It just doesn't matter, Richard wins. Just ask him. And when he doesn't, he'll knock the table over and say start again as he picks up the checkers.

Sir Richard as the black knight. http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-04.htm

[chesspirate]

Clip please.
this dumbfounds me.

read the important parts of my last post.
I offer up as evidence, all the clips you've posted, simply because they show great mechanics and no forced forearm rotation action, and you're just making it up.
and
I've posted up two different visuals showing the bat does not move backward when you say it does, and independant of the shoulders.
So, the clips are already up.

[Mark H]

It's just a flesh wound.

[TwinEngine]

Please Chesspirate grow up.

And, work on your comprehension.

You are a quite a bit short on knowledge of when "go" is.

Frame one is after "go".

You claim Delgado and or Pujols don't blur at frame one when you're using frames before "go".

Nice try.

[TwinEngine]

If PCR was capable of disproving the barrel bluring rearward at go, they would do it?

This would have ended months ago.

But, they can't. Plain and simple.

You can not make the barrel do that with rotation only. Something has to create that direction. Something has to create that speed that quick.

Hands and forearms and it's present in the vast majority of mlb swings.

So, they deflect, bob and weave and change the subject, shoot the messenger and claim victory.

Eddie Haskel stuff.

[TwinEngine]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/ortiz1.gif

I know it's just one clip.......but it is very revealing.:D

Forearms rotating...the triangle...the elbow jutting...lateral tilt.

I'll post Chesspirates response for him. It will save time.


"Is not".

[TwinEngine]

Please timmy. Hurry up and post.

Now we've got Dumb AND Dumber.

[LClifton]

If PCR was capable of disproving the barrel bluring rearward at go, they would do it?
No Richard they can't so would you just cut it out?
I mean really, knock it off!
If you only knew how to read, it's all right there.
Here's how you do it:
Rather than read all the stuff by Jim Booth which really has some hitting content to it. Or any of Richard's stuff which has some hitting content in it.
Or any of Chesspirate's stuff which also has some hitting content in it. They have all put there thoughts out there, right or wrong. Just edit your system so it has only one person's comments on there and you can whisk right through all the hitting schtuff you will ever need.

All without reading all the "dung"....(His words.)

I'll let the audience decide if he has brought anything to the table:


Some good things but work on the casting bat drag, get some vertical load and get someone to throw him decent bp.
I would think it would most productive to either listen to Steve and Jim Booth or swingbuster. Interpolating between would seem less likely to be productive IMO.
Good call UM. I assume he's talking about Steve's drill lightheartedly named the WGD by I believe it was fungo. It's available on Steve's site.
Feel free. I'm still wondering though if you see bhut as the same thing as Richard's swivel?
As I understand it it involves rotating the bat by swiveling the forearms as discussed in the second engine thread on Shawn's site. I'm stunned you don't feel you have a good handle on what Richard espouses as I think of you, Richard and Tom as together on mechanics. As I've said before, I don't have a problem with your loading method. I don't think it's foundational nor a good thing to add into a kid with a wad of inefficiencies but I certainly don't have a problem with it otherwise. I do think Richard's ideas are nonsense and have been rather surprised you agreed with him. Was I mistaken on your thoughts?
Nyman's definition or Richard's definition?
That would depend on how both hands pulled foward.
This would be Jack's "linear". I would just call it a bad swing/disconnection/push. This is why a certain young man couldn't get the barrel to do what he wanted it to do. Disconnection kills flail and whip.
These hands are pulling in a connected fashion.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/...=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

I'll catch up when I can. Computer access may be iffy for a couple of days.
Well you can't say Richard doesn't understand self deprecating humor based on irony. Have to give him credit on that one. Pretty funny.
If you are following your teaching there can be no flail or whip. You can torque the bat around or push it around doing it your way but this eliminates the possibility of flail and whip by definition. I know you won't understand this
but it's really for Chess and other's sake. Good luck this spring.
Told you.
Jake,
There's a discussion of it on Shawn's site and on eteamz if you would like me to link.
Yeah, kind of like they got it on eteamz.
PM me if you want the link.
It IS wading through dung. Some threads seem to degenerate to that. Wonder what the common denominator is?
Here's a clip that might help the discussion.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/f...chieVsteve.gif
Epstein? Sit on the back foot and spin with the bat on your shoulder Epstein? Cue the twilight zone music.
I don't have a problem with the bat on the shoulder as a training step but none of that bears any resemblance I can see to Richard's swiveling theory. And if you take away Epstein's drills teaching sit back and spin on the back foot, about all that's left are a lot of excellent ideas about the mental game.
Pretty funny stuff. It just doesn't matter, Richard wins. Just ask him. And when he doesn't, he'll knock the table over and say start again as he picks up the checkers.

Sir Richard as the black knight. http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-04.htm
It's just a flesh wound.

Jake, haven't you reprimanded others for not bringing anything to the discussion.??? Where are you and why do you allow this ? The comments are just out of place, not to mention the latest clip reference that has nothing to do with swinging a bat.

[NewbieBBDad]

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/ProfessionalHitterAnalyses/Documents/FrameByFrameAnalysis_AlbertPujols.pdf

Frames 18-22, shows a 4 frame swing. Look at how fast the rear shoulder rotates (the purple dot) in 4 frames or 2/15th of a second. So in just 2/15th of a second the shoulders rotates 90 degrees to contact. That causes the blur in the bat.

Further proof? Look at just frames 18-20 (1/15th of a second) the blur of the bat yet the hands and elbow have maintained their relative position to the body.

[chesspirate]

who's bobbing and weaving?

maybee if you post multiple posts in a row you can bury the truth, whatever.

Lets settle "go" then, so we can keep moving forward instead of getting stuck in your muck.

http://a137.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/63/l_5ba767396237f64e794300d4bc2b01f0.jpghttp://a409.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/61/l_1c462e2b8dac11eb1d541e68be4fee70.jpghttp://a931.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/52/l_86a148af954208159ddabfdc192af40a.jpghttp://a591.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/57/l_e6bf99be8f391bf7eb0222516b93efee.jpghttp://a95.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/51/l_93095e3315a36582b6b3566ffa019216.jpg
just tell me wich one is "go" and well go from there.

[4for4]

I've posted up two different visuals showing the bat does not move backward when you say it does, and independant of the shoulders.


Clip please.


You should stop asking for others to produce a swing doing this or that until you can get your swing to look something like, anything like an MLB'r:

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/BondsVThe9FrameSwingA.gif

The Big Sreen Version (http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/BondsVThe9FrameSwingB.gif)

Your swing is at minimum 3 frames behind Bonds. Notice while bonds is unloading his shoulders with the bat moving in the momentum path of the shoulders, you are still fiddling around with trying to create bat blur, "early bat speed launch and spend" etc. Bonds demonstrates why quickness matters. I don't blame you for not being interested in frame counts. All of this from the swing you use to validate your findings.

Let's look at this from a launch perspective (as in synced to launch):

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/ThereIsOnlyOneEngine.gif

You have to launch your swing that much earlier to catch-up leaving nothing in the way of time to read and or adjust to pitch/pitch location.

You have your work cut out for you. Good luck this spring.

And look at Rose and Ches not rotating their shoulders:

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/RoseBigEShoulderRotation.gif

Ches, the big difference to me between you and Rose is the rotation. Just stare at the pelvic region through the shoulders. You look to be pushing more and my guess would be that it's related to a loading problem earlier on in your swing.

[LClifton]

Chess, for what it's worth I like your swing.

[chesspirate]

well, 4for4 isn't wrong, there's junk i've got to keep working at, i can drill drill drill, but that ball comes in and there it all goes sometimes.
LClifton, thanks, i'm glad others think my swing doesn't altogether suck (sometimes i wonder).
Maybee when this is all over, i'll post a full swing from recently. Working on stuff all the time, maybee i'll get some video thursday night... we'll see.

[TwinEngine]

When you boys find freedom you'll be able to see.

I recommend the first thing you learn is the difference between shoulder rotation and the hips moving the shoulders.

Good luck finding real answers where you hang out.

I see you got the standard answer down......"It doesn't work like that". I guess that is proof positive at your place.

And, thanks for the Bonds comparison. What I was demonstrating is very very close to what Bonds does.

Great job pulling out the still photos. I guess Mark allows that when you're on his side. lol

If I was on your side I wouldn't want to see another mlb swing clip.

[TwinEngine]

Oh...I still ask for the PCR clip that can blur the barrel backward in frame one.

[jbooth]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/ortiz1.gif

I know it's just one clip.......but it is very revealing.:D

Forearms rotating...the triangle...the elbow jutting...lateral tilt.

I'll post Chesspirates response for him. It will save time.


"Is not".

Something else you claim is that the swing isn't a circular path.

In the clip below Bonds' hands go from a spot on the right of the pitchers screen, to the middle post and then at contact they are back beyond, to the right of the right side of the screen. I would say that is pretty circular.

Also, there is no early forearm rotation. Look at the label on his glove and the number on his shoulder. The number and the label move together. As the number moves the label moves. If he was swiveling his hands, he label would drop toward the ground and out of sight, before the number on the shoulder.

The handset moves with the shoulder, and the hand path is circular.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bondshandset01.gif

[chesspirate]

I'm done here.
Richard, don't care much what you say from here on out, i've said my peace, you can dog me or whatever it is that you do to get people to respond to you, but i feel i've invested my limit here, time to move on.

And just to post what you will inevitably anyway, no i'm not "running away", and it's not that i don't "have answers or clips" and it's not a problem "keeping up" or any of that other nonsense you post when you need to keep the fire burning.
I've posted my thoughts, put up clips, and gone over the pertinent points.

so just a recap

just because you're wriggling, kicking and screaming doesn't mean you're winning.i'd say "this myth is busted".Your theory... contradicts kinesiological studies
I watch the barrel, I watch the hands, I watch the forearms, I watch everything from as many angles as possible, and my conclusions are different from yours, and I am confident that my conclusions are correct and yours are not

Seacrest, out.....

[TwinEngine]

Jim,

I feel sorry for you. You're sinking.

Bonds barrel moves rearward 4 or 5 frames before the shoulders tilt. What did that? Magic?

AND, Jim, if I'm rotating the forearms AND rotating the triangle AND laterally tilting my shoulders will you be able to see in video which is doing what and which is doing more of it?

And for the circular path......I've made it very clear that the hitter doesn't want a circular path...he wants to keep the hands out over the plate in line with the pitch in the diagonal plane as he rotates the forearms and triangle....but that the rotation will win and the hands will round off.

Please post my quotes in the future. You apparently can't be trusted.

[TwinEngine]

it's not that i don't "have answers or clips"

Where are they?

Jake,

Before you yell at me....

All I did is ask for a PCR clip that creates a rearward barrel that blurs in frame one.

That gave them the red a$$ because it is the proof they can't address.

Things were pretty decent up til then.

[jbooth]

Jim,

I feel sorry for you. You're sinking.

Bonds barrel moves rearward 4 or 5 frames before the shoulders tilt. What did that? Magic?

AND, Jim, if I'm rotating the forearms AND rotating the triangle AND laterally tilting my shoulders will you be able to see in video which is doing what and which is doing more of it?

And for the circular path......I've made it very clear that the hitter doesn't want a circular path...he wants to keep the hands out over the plate in line with the pitch in the diagonal plane....but that the rotation will win and the hands will round off.

Please post my quotes in the future. You apparently can't be trusted.

The bat isn't moving reward, it's flattening out first, then it moves reward with the shoulder. I see it fine. You're the one who simply can't correctly analyze the movement.

And, every player I've ever talked to tries to keep the hands moving inside the ball. It's just the opposite of what you say. They try to swing in a circle but quite often they can't and have to extend to the ball.

And I don't know what you mean by I'm sinking. The only thing I've sunk to is wasting my time conversing with you. Once again I broke my vow to ignore you. I'm with chesspirate now. I'm done. Let the viewers decide. We're at an impasse. We aren't going to convince each other of anything. Continue to believe all your mythical movements. I'll stick with reality.

[TwinEngine]

And, every player I've ever talked to tries to keep the hands moving inside the ball.

Talk about not understanding what they are saying.

What you've described is clear pulling off the ball.

Stay inside and keep moving in a circle? All the way to the dugout after you swing and miss.

The ball is over there. Why do you want to swing over here?

[LClifton]

This clip of Berkman show that the lead shoulder first moves or IS MOVED down and in?
The point of the post is that if you look you may see that the shoulders do delay their opening and if a proper load takes place the shoulders can appear to stay shut for a fairly lengthy period during the swing. Thus the old cue, wrongly applied, "keep your shoulder in there"...The third base coach anxiously getting the hitter to look down at him while he demos it real quick so the batter has a crystal clear image of what needs to happen when he steps back in the box. ;)

Would the following frames (a total of 41 in this clip) 30-39 show any "significant" opening of the shoulders?
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/berkman slow.gif

My opinion is that these frames do not show significant opening (rotation) of the shoulders.
The reasons why are two, again my opinion.
1)The load of the rear scap places the front shoulder into its down and in look.
2)At the same time the front scap is "released, or stretched" which gives the look of the lead arm extending, but notice the lead arm angle stays relatively the same at the elbow joint. So, the lead arm does not, IMO, change its status as far as its bend. But the lead arm is being extended by "shortening the back shoulder area via a scap load, but not so much as to lock out or lock in the joint from its ability to move pretty freely.
The rear scap can be loaded actively or passively depending on the way the hitter loads.

The lead shoulder then MAY give the appearance of not rotating for several frames as the rear elbow moves (down), rear shoulder moves (down), and rotation of the body (torso) begins.

In frames 28-41 what I see is this, the bat moves from its 45 degree angled position to launch.
Now,,,whatever causes the bat to get from frame 28 to frame 41 is going to be your own judgement, training, experience and is none of my business.
Actually, I have had some sucess in telling kids that the bat moves like this and they figure out how to move it there.
They raise the lead arm, (some instructors say, "raise the box")
They will lower the rear elbow, "some say this is premature elbow slotting"
They will let the hands relax and the barrel will then droop (certainly not good)
Some actually have said they feel like they twist the bat.
So, my point is that there does seem to be a few ways that the barrel gets from this point (which many MLB players load to this 45 degree spot) to the launch point. One thing I've figured out for sure (at least I'm sure of it) is the bat tip must have some stability in it (given to it) to keep it from continuing to fall while moving to the launch position.

That stability comes from
1)reasonable grip pressure (probably the smallest factor, by my estimation)
2)the rear elbow moving down and under the bat, (be cautious and watch for bat drag here) which lends to more stability, and which simultaneously turns the hands over, changing the look of the forearms, and changes the angle of the rear wrist from where it started.
Do I think the rear elbow can move down TOO independently?, Yes.
But it does move down and the MLB players that I've had the priviledge of talking to will talk more about their hips and hands, and the elbow talk is pretty much non-existent. Therefore, I believe that the rear elbow IS MOVED down by two things,
1)the external rotation of the rear shoulder, which must have the freedom to do this, yet the "tautness" to maintain a reasonable scap load just past launch.
2) and the dropping of the body mass during rotation.

This whole area of the swing is far too complicated, and much debate over this abounds. But the body is unique thing able to move in ways that most of us "commoners" don't fully comprehend. But, still have a right to discuss the swing.
Do the hands torque the barrel? Most certainly they can. The combination of all the factors above should certainly not rule out that this could occur
SIMULTANEOUS to other movements mentioned. The old debate of does it occur or doesn't it? Just put the bat in the 45 degree position like Berkman, twist the handle without letting your grip slip. What do your forearms do?
What does your lead arm do? What does your right (right handed batter) wrist do? Do they look anything like Berkman's? If they don't, it's no real heartburn. Probably just means I don't understand function. I hit 200 balls a night, study clips, and read, but do not profess to have it figured out.
Anyway,
3)And,,,maintaining the rear scapula load (not an overly conscious thing but certainly if the rear scap is released, that CAN be felt and noticed)

Here's the really cool part. I can disagree with the guy that runs the site I enjoy participating on and not get banned for it. Many have come from one site to join another to see what's there and are very grateful for the freedom to discuss. Not that other sites don't offer it, but it's just not as open, by their words.

Oh yeah, Good Luck this spring.

[Mark H]

I'll let the audience decide if he has brought anything to the table:

.

Yes, but Richard won't. If you disagree with him you are automatically stupid.





Jake, haven't you reprimanded others for not bringing anything to the discussion.??? Where are you and why do you allow this ? The comments are just out of place, not to mention the latest clip reference that has nothing to do with swinging a bat.

You have a problem with me, but Richard can misrepresent, abuse, distort and repeatedly prove he is not interested in good faith discussion and not a peep from you? OK, I get it. No problem. By the way, the good luck this spring is because in spite of Richard, I still hope his kid has a good time this spring.

[Mark H]

What a discussion CAN look like even when parties disagree. Who's missing?

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56476

[TwinEngine]

The messenger.....the messenger.....the messenger....

How dare he point out the failing of PCR and then PROVE it with video.

How dare he ask for that video clip showing a rearward barrel that blurs in frame one. He knows PCR can't do that. We all do or we would produce it.

That isn't fair.

mommy.....mommmmmmmmy

He's doing it again.

Jake....Jake.....didn't you see my post. If you don't ban this guy he's going to win.

Grow up.

It's not me....it's your stuff. That's why the number of PCR converts increases everyday. It's time to realize your stuff is incomplete.

It's time to say....yep, PCR can not blur the bat in frame one....like virtually every mlb player does. If our intention is to teach a high level swingk, well then, we better teach a high level swing.

[TwinEngine]

Richard can misrepresent, abuse, distort and repeatedly prove he is not interested in good faith discussion

Quote the misrepresentations.

Quote the abuse.

Quote the distort. How about timmy's post. I still can't stop laughing about what he wrote.

None of that is true when I post video demonstrating what I see.

Good faith? You mean Chesspirates "I told you it doesn't work that way"

Good Faith????????????are you kidding....what have you offered. I've offered volumes of commentary and video proof. The sum total of yours is "watch video" and "good luck in the spring".

[wogdoggy]

Your release is very slow and very late. (relatively speaking....relative to the pitch) I'm not challenging your individual athleticism or your personal quickness. I'm talking about your mechanics.

Reason.....Rose is using the hands/forearms (Second Engine) to get early added batspeed and quickness. You are using rotation only.

This is a great example of the slow developing PCR swing. No quickness. No early batspeed. Therefore no adjustability.

With your PCR swing, you'll hit the snot out of a few balls and get a misread. It will seem right on those pitches. It seems right against a tee. It seems right against soft toss or easy bp. But, it is simply not possible to adjust to pitch location and speed with a PCR swing.

A PCR swing has no ability, no preparedness, to be able to drive the outside pitch opposite field and handle the inside pitch on any given pitch.

The degree of shoulder rotation that it takes to get the barrel up to speed, to be able to drive the ball is only achieved for the middle in pitch. There is no early speed to help with the outside pitch.

And, the amount of rotation it takes to get the barrel up to speed, and the length of time it takes to get there, means the hitter must start early. This puts his timing in jeopardy.

It means he will suffer two debilitating moves. Stare at the outside pitch for called strikes because you can't do anything with it. (the body knows you have to hit that ball deep but it can't get the barrel up to speed in that short of time/distance) And, pull off the ball because the time it takes to get the barrel up to speed means the shoulders will be turned too far and will be pulling the hands out of the hitzone. A right handed batters shoulders will take a "hard left" on every swing. This move, because of that shoulders connection to the lead arm, takes the hands/barrel out of the hitzone and pulls off the ball.


CAN we address this? I find a total lack of power on outside pitches..any other possible cause?

[Mark H]

Twin,

No, awhile back I actually gave you my thoughts on what Brandon needed to do to improve. I knew you wouldn't listen but I did it anyway because it was the right thing to do. It really doesn't usuallly matter what anyone says. This is a debate contest where you are a participant AND the judge. When Boardmember exposed you on the referenced eteamz thread, which required a bunch of effort with video that I"m not willing to learn how to do, you still claimed victory, a la the Black Knight, but you gave up over there after Boardmember showed up, for the most part, and came over here to try your hand. I have chosen to mostly let your words speak for themselves since, judging by your membership, your words seem very effective at refuting your points. Nothing, I mean nothing, helps you and seems to please and encourage you more than someone taking you seriously enough to engage you. No sense in that if my goal is to see as many people as possible steered away from bad information and toward good information.

Woggy,

Sounds like you have your mind made up. I encourage you to get with Richard and work his system diligently. If he's right or wrong, you need to find out asap.

[wogdoggy]

no mark h..Im not with anybody..I just find my boy struggles on the outside ..Im not here to defend this method or that method ,,because like i said Im not sure if I taught this method or that method correctly to my kid,,My kid is by now means a poster boy of pcr..my boy never had a one on one with steve ,i bought his dvd,s and I can honestly say my boy rotates much better than before the tapes..AND thats a credit I give to steve...ITS that easy..now just cause he struggles outside doesnt mean its a strike against pcr..More than likeely i may have failed in teaching it correctly..
I have great respect for steve and his awarness for what makes a swing,,I have enjoyed talking with him on the phone and having him help me for free way above and beyond the call of duty..I just want to know why he struggles more on that pitch..im not here to tear down pcr..Im here to learn and get the best swing fo junior...

[Mark H]

Well, you could take the improvement and build on it with Steve or you could try Richard's ideas. I encourage you to do one or the other diligently.

[wogdoggy]

Is it this way or that way? can there be a blend of rotaion and posture and HANDS?

[Mark H]

Any cue any given day may be a good one but the two methods are different. Blending them would be impossible by definition.

[NewbieBBDad]

Why the focus on early bat speed? Isn't it useless if it cannot contribute to increasing bat speed at contact? Just because a runner could start 10m behind the starting line doesn't mean his max speed is any faster 50m later. Taken to a logical extreme, if early bat speed was so important wouldn't all batters be wrapping the bat around the head at launch?

And doesn't early bat speed = early commitment to the pitch?

I thought that every swing has a max bat speed point and you could move that point by altering the timing of when the arms lash out at the ball. Which is why you don't commit the arms until you need to.

[LClifton]

You have a problem with me, but Richard can misrepresent, abuse, distort and repeatedly prove he is not interested in good faith discussion and not a peep from you?
Jim Booth posts his thoughts / experiences / expertise.
Chess---same thing.
Richard---same.
You?
Richard's posting style is annoying. So is yours.
You refuse to talk specifics on what you think about hitting.

By the way, the good luck this spring is because in spite of Richard, I still hope his kid has a good time this spring.
In spite,,, is apparent.

When Boardmember exposed you on the referenced eteamz thread
And other than telling boardmember that his cause and effect was not accurate (in so many words) What did you offer as a counter point?
As in, what really happens to set the fulcrum he was attempting to describe.
And when Haze coach talked about getting the bottom hand into a knuckles facing pitcher position and you disagreed, what did you offer as to how this really happens----NOTHING....you just said basically, "no, not like that."

Good luck this spring.

[Mark H]

Tried engaging him a long time ago. Pointless. But once again, it's about me with one cursory line about Richard being annoying. If you read his stuff and think it's about the kids rather than about Richard and his vendetta...well, never mind, you obviously do. Good luck with that. And I really do wish his kid well. Been there. Know how it feels to have a kid come to the end of the line on his career before he and Dad want it to be the end of the line.

[LClifton]

Woggy,
To the business of helping your son.
I don't have the ability to save the clip, clip #2 specifically.

There may be something that would help him be more effective in hitting the outside pitch. Keep in mind the low and away pitch is the lowest batting average spot on the chart.
That said,
There is an adjustment that needs to be made to the way he moves out or strides, IMO.

In the clip #2 his upper body continues to move forward to foot plant.
This gets him out over his front side too much and makes hitting outside (inside too) very difficult.

So how does one move forward, in effect, with the lower body and still "stay back" with the upper.

Some say it's by moving the middle properly. Some say he is cocking his hips.
Both are true in this clip.
But how?
Maybe a visual would help.

Take a look at Mauer.
Here's the full clip.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/mauer sync.gif
In his set up he has just a slight tilt to his shoulders, which I don't see in Matt.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/mauer set up.bmp
From there as he strides, which, is where I believe, that when Matt learns this it will benefit him greatly.
Take a close look at the angle of his upper body, it is a result of how he
1) sets up initially
2) and how he moves out. He sits on the back leg as he is moving out.
Matt does this pretty well already, but his weight (upper body gets out over his front leg too much, IMO.)
Anyway here's the picture:
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/mauer slant.bmp
Compare his angles at toe touch or near toe touch to your son.
I would have placed them side by side but for some reason I can't save the clip of Matt.

Your son's axis has moved into an unfavorable spot from which to hit anything away, or for that matter to be able to turn effectively on anything that is slightly in.

This is mostly a posture issue. He can start (set-up) like he does now, but IMO needs to move into a little better posture as he starts to move into his load, (posture being part of the load)

I know he is working with someone now and I'm sure he sees the things that will help your son improve.

I will say this, the way your son keeps his middle (beltline) tucked during his stride will benefit him when he gets the stride,,,, more correct.
I suspect with a better posture his ability to hit those problem pitches will improve relatively quick.

[wogdoggy]

From there as he strides, which, is where I believe, that when Matt learns this it will benefit him greatly.
Take a close look at the angle of his upper body, it is a result of how he
1) sets up initially
2) and how he moves out. He sits on the back leg as he is moving out.
Matt does this pretty well already, but his weight (upper body gets out over his front leg too much, IMO.)
Anyway


fantastic..the varsity coach noticed he jumps out on his front side as well.I also think he needs more tilt right from the start..thanks,this is the stuff im looking for..

[LClifton]

Tried engaging him a long time ago. Pointless. But once again, it's about me with one cursory line about Richard being annoying. If you read his stuff and think it's about the kids rather than about Richard and his vendetta...well, never mind, you obviously do.
You have obviously formed an opinion on assumption, but you did have a good teacher.
What is truly amazing is the times I've tried to engage in conversation with you only to be ignored....That is what has formed my opinion about you.
Good luck with that. And I really do wish his kid well.
Save it.

[Mark H]

Don't recall it. I generally work very hard to help someone who is working hard at learning. You can ask Scott or Greg about that. OTOH, I do sometimes suffer from burn out and I do have a family and a job that sometime keep me very busy. Didn't mean to neglect you. I understand you have a very good player who will likely have a lot of success in college. I wish her well too.

[LClifton]

fantastic..the varsity coach noticed he jumps out on his front side as well.I also think he needs more tilt right from the start..thanks,this is the stuff im looking for..
Your welcome.

[Mark H]

They were some good comments. Not sure why he didn't pick that up from Steve's site but good comments. You show an understanding of some of Dixon's observations. Now what about the lack of vertical loading/tilting toward the plate? That would seem to be critical to hitting the low outside pitch. Also, what about the casting bat drag? That would seem to be critical to hitting any good pitcher in any location. These are points I brought up on the first page. I thought they were substantive but...

[Mark H]

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[TwinEngine]

Now what about the lack of vertical loading/tilting toward the plate? That would seem to be critical to hitting the low outside pitch.

Says who.

Mlb video doesn't.

And this is where you accuse me of misreprentation.

ANYTHING said against PCR is a misrepresentation to you.

Even when video doesn't support you.

Here is the most revealing "move" Mark H is trying to accomplish

He says BoardMember and HazeCoach "worked me over". Two guys that can't recognize a diagonal swing plane from a hortizontal swing plane. A few days ago he starts referring people to jbooth and swingbuster.....guys he highly disagreed with 6 months ago....guys who were saying the sames things 6 months ago as they are saying today.....all off a sudden he's referring people to them? Please.

They are even happy to mention Nyman....trying to get in good with him again.

You should hear the things I've heard them say about the named individuals......and now they want to be in bed with them.

The goal is to "make happy"....to "build an alliance" of those folks to discredit me.

Why? Because my stuff thrusts a dagger into PCR and they NEED to shut me up. Once they are rid of me, see how they treat you, jbooth.

The "get along" that they encourage is for one thing. To hide their stuff and their arrogance about their stuff. "How could WE be wrong". How dare you point it out. You're unfair. You're misrepresenting us.

If it wasn't, why won't they just produce a PCR swing that moves the barrel rearward with blur in frame one? You know, the move seen in virtually all mlb swings. The move they will say you don't see if you hang around them long enough.

It would be so simple to shut me up IF they could disprove my stuff. But they can't. So, they are campaigning for your vote..........all the while misleading their students. It's more important for them to win the argument than to help kids.

PCR.....your actions are so loud I can't hear what you say.

[TwinEngine]

Your release is very slow and very late. (relatively speaking....relative to the pitch) I'm not challenging your individual athleticism or your personal quickness. I'm talking about your mechanics.

Reason.....Rose is using the hands/forearms (Second Engine) to get early added batspeed and quickness. You are using rotation only.

This is a great example of the slow developing PCR swing. No quickness. No early batspeed. Therefore no adjustability.

With your PCR swing, you'll hit the snot out of a few balls and get a misread. It will seem right on those pitches. It seems right against a tee. It seems right against soft toss or easy bp. But, it is simply not possible to adjust to pitch location and speed with a PCR swing.

A PCR swing has no ability, no preparedness, to be able to drive the outside pitch opposite field and handle the inside pitch on any given pitch.

The degree of shoulder rotation that it takes to get the barrel up to speed, to be able to drive the ball is only achieved for the middle in pitch. There is no early speed to help with the outside pitch.

And, the amount of rotation it takes to get the barrel up to speed, and the length of time it takes to get there, means the hitter must start early. This puts his timing in jeopardy.

It means he will suffer two debilitating moves. Stare at the outside pitch for called strikes because you can't do anything with it. (the body knows you have to hit that ball deep but it can't get the barrel up to speed in that short of time/distance) And, pull off the ball because the time it takes to get the barrel up to speed means the shoulders will be turned too far and will be pulling the hands out of the hitzone. A right handed batters shoulders will take a "hard left" on every swing. This move, because of that shoulders connection to the lead arm, takes the hands/barrel out of the hitzone and pulls off the ball.


CAN we address this? I find a total lack of power on outside pitches..any other possible cause?

Woggy

You can not drive the outside pitch without Second Engine type movement. And, if your swing is driven by shoulder rotation, you can't do it either. Watch them set a tee on the outside pitch and drive it....that's the extent of their proof. They'll say "see...looky here". The problem is they know exactly where the pitch is and they align for it and they turn their merry go round so it lets the bat fly off at the right spot and POW...they hit the snot out of the ball and smirk.

Put the same hitter in the batters box and watch him stare at the outside pitch while he takes it. Called strike one. Called strike two. Called strike three. Go sit down. Can't even pull the trigger. There is no need to pull the trigger. Just hope for a different pitch. There is no speed to hit it. No adjustability to get there. Turn and go sit down is all they can do. I've lived it. It is very real. It is built into PCR. Part and parcel. There is no way around it as long as you "just hang on to the damn bat"...and as long as "the hands are along for the ride".

They will say you can do it. But remember, none of them hit live pitching anymore. And they do the same thing I did when my son expressed concerns.....they repeat the dogma. Over and over. The more you say it the more it's true. And, if it doesn't work and you say so.....their answer is "you don't understand it". I let Lucy pull the football from in front of me for 5 years listening to a group that is well meaning but limited in experience. See timmy and chesspirates supporting evidence a few posts back.

It is simply not possible for a bat to fly off the merry go round at the right time at the right location with the right speed to drive the outside pitch.

Of course, anything I say is a misrepresentation. Even though I am the only (former) posse member that still plays and teaches and can actually understand players concerns. Even though when that pitch comes to the outside part of the plate, and I'm all PCR'd ready to swing and I can't pull the trigger because you simply can't generate early enough batspeed, deep enough batspeed without hand action.

Your concern is VERY real.

This Michael Tucker clip is excellent showing how he attacks the outside pitch.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/mtucker.gif

Watch the barrel arc behind him. That is critical to hitting the outside pitch. That allows batspeed early in the swing. Without that you'll have little useable speed until you've turned the corner much much later in the swing.

If you pick up a bat, or your son, and simply create the arc Tucker creates you will immediately feel something different. You will feel plate coverage. You'll feel swing quickness. You'll feel early batspeed. You will also feel the body acting differently than it has in the past.

Don't ignore that stuff. The answer is in the upper body action and how it controls the lower body. How it works to get everything to "go" at once no matter the location.

The PCR merry go round just goes. If started it's goes. It cannot be directed to the ball efficiently.

[Mark H]

Says who.

Mlb video doesn't.

And this is where you accuse me of misreprentation.

ANYTHING said against PCR is a misrepresentation to you.

Even when video doesn't support you.


http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[LClifton]

They were some good comments. Not sure why he didn't pick that up from Steve's site but good comments.
Not sure why you bothered to compliment---then jab.
Just save it, Mark.
You show an understanding of some of Dixon's observations
Gosh, that's just swell of you to say so.
Maybe I'll get to your level someday.
How much more can you talk down to me?
Now what about the lack of vertical loading/tilting toward the plate? That would seem to be critical to hitting the low outside pitch.
What about it? Explain what it is and how to get there, please, not for me, but for Matt.
That would seem to be critical to hitting any good pitcher in any location. These are points I brought up on the first page. I thought they were substantive but...
They were lost in the dung.

[Mark H]

Not sure why you bothered to compliment---then jab.
Just save it, Mark..

Well actually it wasn't a jab unless you think you agreeing with Steve is a jab. It was me being perplexed that Steve's website and dvd's failed to convey that to Woggy.




Gosh, that's just swell of you to say so.
Maybe I'll get to your level someday.
How much more can you talk down to me? .

Perhaps I could have phrased it better, but then perhaps your mind is made up about me. Sounds like we agree on the substance. At least partially.



What about it? Explain what it is and how to get there, please, not for me, but for Matt.

.

I included the link. More tilt for low pitches and holding the spine angle through rotation seems pretty straight forward to me. Stick your butt out and assume an athletic posture common to most sports. Adjust the tilt of the spine for the pitch location. You correctly, IMO, addressed posture as a problem. I just added to what you had already, correctly IMO, stated.

On the bat drag (defined in this case as letting the top hand elbow lead the hands with the hands cast out away from the shoulder) is not something that will cause a problem per se with hitting the low outside. it is a problem that kills quickness. Donny has a method he believes works to cure the problem which method I don't have a problem with except as the foundational cure all he believes it is. At least up until he adds in Richard's notions. Steve has numerous drills on his site and dvds, which Woggy has, to address the problem. He should try whichever methods make sense to him.

[jbooth]

Why the focus on early bat speed? Isn't it useless if it cannot contribute to increasing bat speed at contact? Just because a runner could start 10m behind the starting line doesn't mean his max speed is any faster 50m later. Taken to a logical extreme, if early bat speed was so important wouldn't all batters be wrapping the bat around the head at launch?

And doesn't early bat speed = early commitment to the pitch?

I thought that every swing has a max bat speed point and you could move that point by altering the timing of when the arms lash out at the ball. Which is why you don't commit the arms until you need to.

Ahh, someone with some intelligence and understanding. Good post!

[TwinEngine]

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

Mark H

You the "misrepresentation" accuser.

Would you like to talk about the misrepresentation of "doctored" clips?

Why is the first half of these players swings deleted?

Simple question.

Second simple question.

Which body parts form the 4 sides of the box. Be specific please as in upperarm/forearm etc.

[Mark H]

Ahh, someone with some intelligence and understanding. Good post!

Agreed. .

[TwinEngine]

holding the spine angle through rotation

Mark H

Can you tell me which of these clips of Pujols he "holds the spine angle through rotation?

Please.

Pujols (http://recruit.hittingillustrated.com/Library.htm)

I see him raising as he's swinging.

Isn't that what you see?

[TwinEngine]

Ahh, someone with some intelligence and understanding. Good post!
Originally Posted by NewbieBBDad
Why the focus on early bat speed? Isn't it useless if it cannot contribute to increasing bat speed at contact? Just because a runner could start 10m behind the starting line doesn't mean his max speed is any faster 50m later. Taken to a logical extreme, if early bat speed was so important wouldn't all batters be wrapping the bat around the head at launch?

And doesn't early bat speed = early commitment to the pitch?

I thought that every swing has a max bat speed point and you could move that point by altering the timing of when the arms lash out at the ball. Which is why you don't commit the arms until you need to.

Simply unbelievable that anyone who frequents hitting boards and holds themselves up to be an instructor could agree with this.

[Mark H]

Mark H

You the "misrepresentation" accuser.

Would you like to talk about the misrepresentation of "doctored" clips?

Why is the first half of these players swings deleted?

Simple question.

Second simple question.

Which body parts form the 4 sides of the box. Be specific please as in upperarm/forearm etc.

Shortened at both ends to make a specific point does not mean doctored. Point is, they ARE tilted and the swing plane IS roughly perpendicular to spine angle. Plenty of full length clips are available on the same site. Surely you aren't accusing Siggy of duplicity.

Don't get tied up in the term box. The point is connecting the power of the rotating torso to the bat. Maintaining the "box" is a cue to get the point across.

[TwinEngine]

Agreed. .

And another just did.

Mark H, no less.

He will agree with ANYTHING, if I'm on the other side.

I'm waiting for your comments on Pujols.

[TwinEngine]

Shortened at both ends to make a specific point does not mean doctored. Point is, they ARE tilted and the swing plane IS roughly perpendicular to spine angle. Plenty of full length clips are available on the same site. Surely you aren't accusing Siggy of duplicity.

Don't get tied up in the term box. The point is connecting the power of the rotating torso to the bat. Maintaining the "box" is a cue to get the point across.

Mark

At least half of the swing plane isn't shown. How can you say "shortening" has no effect on the clip. When you speak swing plane and don't show most of it....that's doctoring.

If you said.....the bat is perp to the spine at contact....you'd be ok. The clips show that. What happened up stream from that is completely different than described by that clip.

[Mark H]

Mark H

Can you tell me which of these clips of Pujols he "holds the spine angle through rotation?

Please.

Pujols (http://recruit.hittingillustrated.com/Library.htm)

I see him raising as he's swinging.

Isn't that what you see?

Don't have a real fast connection here and your link was taking too long. Here's one. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=3&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[TwinEngine]

Don't get tied up in the term box. The point is connecting the power of the rotating torso to the bat. Maintaining the "box" is a cue to get the point across.

Unbelievable. I ask for clarification of a PCR term. The box. One that he CAN NOT clarify because their is no box that is maintained.

So he says.....don't get tied up in the term.

Revisionism folks.

The box is a long term very important term/concept to PCR.

A triangle is easily seen.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiztriangle.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujolstriangle.gif

They can't show you a box because it isn't there.

They won't admit there is a triangle, which is clearly there, BECAUSE THAT PROVES FOREARM AND TRIANGLE ROTATION. Something their one and only power source can not do.

[TwinEngine]

Don't have a real fast connection here and your link was taking too long. Here's one. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=3&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Please. Watch my link.

You will see "maintaining tilt" throughout the swing isn't an absolute.

I expect an answer when you get to a high speed connection.

[Mark H]

Mark

At least half of the swing plane isn't shown. How can you say "shortening" has no effect on the clip. When you speak swing plane and don't show most of it....that's doctoring.

Doctoring would be changing the clip to show something it's not. These clips are obviously shortened before and after to show a particular point in the swing. As I said, there are plenty of full clips on the same site. These are teaching aids. I understand you disagree with them and that's fine but I certainly hope you aren't suggesting any intent by Siggy to purposely mislead.

[TwinEngine]

You are the doctor. Not siggy.

You are pointing to clips to make a swing plane statement that don't show the swing plane.

Would you call that misrepresentaton? Or distortion?

[Mark H]

Unbelievable. I ask for clarification of a PCR term. The box. One that he CAN NOT clarify because their is no box that is maintained.

So he says.....don't get tied up in the term.

Revisionism folks.

The box is a long term very important term/concept to PCR.

A triangle is easily seen.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/dortiztriangle.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/pujolstriangle.gif

They can't show you a box because it isn't there.

They won't admit there is a triangle, which is clearly there, BECAUSE THAT PROVES FOREARM AND TRIANGLE ROTATION. Something their one and only power source can not do.

Well the figurative box certainly didn't run from elbow to elbow to hands and back to elbow. lol

Time to let the folks decide though Richard has, as always, declared victory. Dare I say it? Good luck this spring. IOW, I wish you well though we will have to agree to disagree.

[Mark H]

You are the doctor. Not siggy.

You are pointing to clips to make a swing plane statement that don't show the swing plane.

Would you call that misrepresentaton? Or distortion?

No, I pointed to the clips as examples of torso tilt through rotation though they would be a good starting place for the other discussion. Glad to hear you think Siggy is an honest man.

[Mark H]

Still think I ought to keep this up Loren?

[LClifton]

And doesn't early bat speed = early commitment to the pitch?
No, it doesn't equate to early commitment.
I could see how this would be a fair assumption.

To use your analogy with the runner.
If the race is 20 yards and the runner gets a 5 yard running start vs. the other runners starting from a static start,,,the runner with the running start will have an advantage, because he is accelerated at the start of the race.
You are right he may not reach any higher speed, but he doesn't need to.
Unlike the hitter, the earliest possible bat speed development is crucial.
And it is done, with a running start, dictated largely by loading pattern.
When a batter has movement leading up to launch he has more potential early bat speed than the one that starts from a static position. No correlation to early commitment. In fact, just the opposite, due to the bat not going forward as in the racer analogy.
Instead the bat is primed to go forward without commitment to swing.

Here is an example of a good running start.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/inge.gif


There is a greater ability with this to not only launch with more batspeed (due to a running start) but also to decide "no" on the pitch. Look at the clip and decide at what point Inge could no longer "hold up" on the swing.
Pretty late, IMO.

It is one continuous movement that allows greater decision making time wise, coupled with greater early batspeed.

[TwinEngine]

Is timmy an honest man? Did he really use a live game swing to compare to a one arm swing....and before you cry foul..........AND COUNT FRAMES...Unbelievable. Slap me if you can find a post where I counted frames or refered to a frame count on Steve's one arm swing. I spoke of the swing plane.....his horizontal swing plane.....I did not count frames.

Did you see the clip work he did last night?

ROFLMAO

And his commentary was absurd. The guy has no understanding........is he kept around for his computer work?

He is embarassing to himself. Would take a good friend not to tell him his shortcomings. Is he related to burns?

[TwinEngine]

Still think I ought to keep this up Loren?

I know you don't like it. Because you won't say anything and I'm not afraid to point it out.

You can act all "abused" if you want, and pull your sympathy pleas.

Right thinking people see through it.

All I want is to discuss issues that you refuse to discuss....or cut off discussion and cry foul when my points expose your theory.

Our disagreement is based in the fact that we see different things in the video. And I was asked to speak about them by Chesspirate and Jake. So I did. And you guys then say "no that's not right" and point to video clips. You won't discuss the details of those clips....you just point to them and say.....good luck in the spring. When I pry deeper you say....see he's at it again.

Fact of the matter is you don't want to explore the differences and reach a consistent hitting theory that video supports.

How many times do I have to point out the barrel movement and blur at frame one? That IS where the answer will be found.

You won't go there.

[TwinEngine]

Again, Mark, at least my lines (of the triangle) stay on the body parts they are intented to represent.

I did not make a misrepresentation by drawing a box and then letting the body parts move wherever as is shown in the siggy site clip.

[bbjunkie]

Unbelievable. I ask for clarification of a PCR term. The box. One that he CAN NOT clarify because their is no box that is maintained.
Huh? The first image shows a classic box. Don't add the back arm into the equation, the box is the front upper arm, lower arm, bat and body. In the first image it is nearly square. The second is more of what some call an elongated box.

[LClifton]

Still think I ought to keep this up Loren?

Richard, would you continue to discuss your point(s) without the jabs?

Most clips don't include the load---for whatever reason, several clips just don't show it.

[tadlock11]

In 2E's link, it may be my ignorance (again) but I see the tilt - started with it, maintained it throughout the swing. May have lifted up or tilted a bit more as he committed to the given pitch.
Also, if I may take a crack at the "box" issue. What I believe the "box" to be is (in no particular order)
side 1 - lead hand at bat to elbow
side 2 - lead elbow to shoulder
side 3 - lead shoulder to rear shoulder
side 4 - rear shoulder to lead hand at bat (this is the non-materialistic side that is often busted open via casting)
The box, as has been said many times across many boards, is not four ninety degree angles. In fact, long before any second engine theory, I was told to "stretch" the box as part of Steve's "one move". Illustrated here by Barry Bonds: http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/Bonds%20Barry%2016.gif
and here by Junior: http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/Griffey01.gif

Woggy,
Comparing most of the swings of your son to MLB hitters, IMO he is way out in front. Same with my youngest son, when he waits longer to explode on the ball, he has less trouble. Try filming from pitcher or catcher view.

[TwinEngine]

Huh? The first image shows a classic box. Don't add the back arm into the equation, the box is the front upper arm, lower arm, bat and body. In the first image it is nearly square. The second is more of what some call an elongated box.

Really? So it's open ended (3 sided) as far as body parts are concerned?

[TwinEngine]

Can we agree on three of the four sides...

Bat, lead forearm, lead upper arm?

[TwinEngine]

No, it doesn't equate to early commitment.
I could see how this would be a fair assumption.

To use your analogy with the runner.
If the race is 20 yards and the runner gets a 5 yard running start vs. the other runners starting from a static start,,,the runner with the running start will have an advantage, because he is accelerated at the start of the race.
You are right he may not reach any higher speed, but he doesn't need to.
Unlike the hitter, the earliest possible bat speed development is crucial.
And it is done, with a running start, dictated largely by loading pattern.
When a batter has movement leading up to launch he has more potential early bat speed than the one that starts from a static position. No correlation to early commitment. In fact, just the opposite, due to the bat not going forward as in the racer analogy.
Instead the bat is primed to go forward without commitment to swing.

Here is an example of a good running start.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/inge.gif


There is a greater ability with this to not only launch with more batspeed (due to a running start) but also to decide "no" on the pitch. Look at the clip and decide at what point Inge could no longer "hold up" on the swing.
Pretty late, IMO.

It is one continuous movement that allows greater decision making time wise, coupled with greater early batspeed.

Very good comment.

May I add that only with "early batspeed", meaning speed early in the swing.....getting up to speed as soon as possible after "go"....can a hitter wait, let the ball travel, get a good read on it, and hit it deep in the zone.

To do that the swing must be launched before the hitter turns the corner. This requires handle torque. Knob pulling, whether by the arms or by rotation is too slow developing.

[Mark H]

It is one continuous movement that allows greater decision making time wise, coupled with greater early batspeed.

A five frame swing is a five frame swing.

[TwinEngine]

No it is not.

Where and how "go" is achieved is extemely important.

My oldest son who leads with his elbow has had five frame swings.

This is really revealing stuff.

A five frame swing with no adustablity is useless.

A five frame swing powered by shoulder rotation can cover a small fraction of the zone.

And, a five frame swing done with a running start may be a 4 frame swing.

[Mark H]

Well then he should do well at a small college. Congratulations.

I'm headed for a game. I'd say good luck to all but...

[TwinEngine]

Let's talk more "5 frame swing" when you return.

K?

[LClifton]

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/mauer box.bmp
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Mauer triangle.bmp
Box, triangle...does something need to be maintained?
At least as much as humanly possible other than when fooled?

By my understanding the triangle should rest on top of the arms as opposed to the way I drew it on Mauer, either way I think the point is the two elbows and the hands..Like this still of Wright:
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/wright triangle.bmp

Is the contention that the lead arm ---if already up in the swing plane, and it forms a box---as described by Tadlock---and if that box is maintained---is this how most MLB's start or do they arrive at that position later?
(lead arm position) box is raised as seen with Bonds, Stock,i.e.

Whether the lead elbow is up or down there is a "box"...and there is a triangle.
Probably a parallelogram, on obtuse something or other and a circle could be found if we looked hard enough....:laugh

Anyway,
The triangle is to illustrate how it's maintenance in front of the body keeps the hands going in a line parallel to (inside) the ball longer, before turning the corner as in a CHP...---
and the argument, as I understand it is,
maintaining a box around the corner causes one to be pulling off, away from the ball / strike zone.
So, apparently if one is right and the other is not it's going to make a drastic change in the shape of things.:laugh

Not that the maintenance of the box is taught that way, I'm not saying that. If it is then I disagree with it, if it isn't then,,,great.

Sorry, lest I forget, this is hitting discussion and there is no room for humor.
How dare me.
It is truly life and death.
Call the press....:radio
The world is subject to poor instruction and humanity may be in jeapordy. And believe it or not there are successful hitters out there that have gotten there without us, you, whoever.

[LClifton]

A five frame swing is a five frame swing.
O.k. Thanks.

[FlippJ]

Sorry, lest I forget, this is hitting discussion and there is no room for humor.
How dare me.
It is truly life and death.

LClifton,

You really didn't need to make an attempt at humor. This thread had enough material already. As far as this "stuff" being life and death... I don't know about that. It is pretty obvious to me though that when people are trying to make money they'll say and do just about anything.

Carry on! :waving

Jason

[LClifton]

O.k............

[dougmac]

Why the focus on early bat speed? Isn't it useless if it cannot contribute to increasing bat speed at contact? Just because a runner could start 10m behind the starting line doesn't mean his max speed is any faster 50m later. Taken to a logical extreme, if early bat speed was so important wouldn't all batters be wrapping the bat around the head at launch?

And doesn't early bat speed = early commitment to the pitch?

I thought that every swing has a max bat speed point and you could move that point by altering the timing of when the arms lash out at the ball. Which is why you don't commit the arms until you need to.

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/br8.mpg

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/Vlad.mpg

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/HABP.mpg

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/DickAllen.mov

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/Bonds4.gif

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/soh.gif


I would have to doubt that the early start (tip) with the bathead by these great players would be considered useless. They don't wrap the bat around their head, they tip it and get it going long before the guy who goes from a dead start, who is usually the guy with the bat wrapped around his head. Some of them are big and strong, and others are very normal sized guys, but they have one thing in common and that is hitting the ball out of the park. If anyone wants to argue, they should argue with Ruth, Foxx, Williams, Aaron, Robinson, Bonds, Bagwell, Guerrero etc. The proof is with them and their great swings.

[NewbieBBDad]

If the race is 20 yards and the runner gets a 5 yard running start vs. the other runners starting from a static start,,,the runner with the running start will have an advantage, because he is accelerated at the start of the race.
You are right he may not reach any higher speed, but he doesn't need to.
Unlike the hitter, the earliest possible bat speed development is crucial.
And it is done, with a running start, dictated largely by loading pattern.
When a batter has movement leading up to launch he has more potential early bat speed than the one that starts from a static position. No correlation to early commitment. In fact, just the opposite, due to the bat not going forward as in the racer analogy.
Instead the bat is primed to go forward without commitment to swing.

There is a greater ability with this to not only launch with more batspeed (due to a running start) but also to decide "no" on the pitch. Look at the clip and decide at what point Inge could no longer "hold up" on the swing.
Pretty late, IMO.

It is one continuous movement that allows greater decision making time wise, coupled with greater early batspeed.
My running analogy wasn't perfect, the flaw in your argument is what dictates the winner of the race and it's my fault I was not clearer. In my race, the winner isn't who finishes first, it is who achieves the highest speed during the race.

In hitting, the race is to have the fastest batspeed not to get to the finish line first. Swinging early gets you to the finish line faster but the ball might not be there yet so what good is that? But reaching higher bat speed is the key goal and as you said yourself, early acceleration may not achieve that.
Very good comment.

May I add that only with "early batspeed", meaning speed early in the swing.....getting up to speed as soon as possible after "go"....can a hitter wait, let the ball travel, get a good read on it, and hit it deep in the zone.

To do that the swing must be launched before the hitter turns the corner. This requires handle torque. Knob pulling, whether by the arms or by rotation is too slow developing.
Your speed early and let the ball travel arguments are direct contradictions. That necessarily implies the bat must reduce its acceleration during the swing if you have early bat movement vs. a swing that does not have early bat movement and merely waits to commit. It can only be one or the other.

Or take the running analogy one step further. If the pitch is analogous to the firing of the starter pistol, the batter who starts early 5m behind would need to slow down if he mistimed the starter pistol and lose speed.

One thing I need to clarify is that the MLB swing does have early bat movement but that isn't exactly the same as speed or energy expended by the batter. The key difference between an MLB swing and TwinEngine's theory is that the MLB early bat movement is merely incidental to loading and the shoulder turn and not an active expenditure of energy by the arms. As we saw in the Pujols frames, the hip turn is fast enough to blur the bat while the arms remain uncommited.

To use the arms early is necessarily commitment and a precious waste of energy. Having the bat whip around incidentally due to load and hip turn isn't.

[TwinEngine]

In hitting, the race is to have the fastest batspeed not to get to the finish line first.

Unbelievable. All those slowpitch softball players are lining up as we speak for mlb contracts.

Swinging early gets you to the finish line faster but the ball might not be there yet so what good is that?

Simply unbelieveable.

But reaching higher bat speed is the key goal and as you said yourself, early acceleration may not achieve that.

May I pitch to you and all your hitters. Why don't you sign all those slow pitch softball players with the batspeed records.

Your speed early and let the ball travel arguments are direct contradictions.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand.

That necessarily implies the bat must reduce its acceleration during the swing if you have early bat movement vs. a swing that does not have early bat movement and merely waits to commit. It can only be one or the other.

Wrong again. Just what if the barrel was moving away from the ball. Have you committed?


One thing I need to clarify is that the MLB swing does have early bat movement but that isn't exactly the same as speed

Many have both. All have early speed.

The key difference between an MLB swing and TwinEngine's theory is that the MLB early bat movement is merely incidental to loading and the shoulder turn and not an active expenditure of energy by the arms.

Do you mean those shoulders that resist turning? I'm anxiously awaiting your barrel rearward, blur in frame one clip

As we saw in the Pujols frames, the hip turn is fast enough to blur the bat while the arms remain uncommited.

Yeah those stills flew across my screen so fast I couldn't see them. Incredible speed.

To use the arms early is necessarily commitment and a precious waste of energy.

What arm movement? Pulling? Extending? Pushing? Rotating? What arm part? Entire arm? Upper arm? Forearm? What if you're using your hands not your arms? What if one part of your arms is generating the speed and another part commits to the ball?

[dougmac]

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/OH.mov

This guy weighed 170 lbs and hit 868 home runs. He not only started the bat early (tip), he was well into his swing before the front foot came down. People can argue all they want, but when he looks at the record books, it says 868 home runs.

[TwinEngine]

Originally Posted by NewbieBBDad

I'll pull a Mark.

There is a lot to learn.

Go to w w w.com and read.

[Jake Patterson]

Where are they?
Jake,
Before you yell at me....
All I did is ask for a PCR clip that creates a rearward barrel that blurs in frame one.
That gave them the red a$$ because it is the proof they can't address.
Things were pretty decent up til then.

I think both sides need to let it go at this point. There are opposing and/or disenting views that will not be resolved on a discussion board. The debate has existed for months and you guys are no closer to an understanding now than you were in November. From an outsider's perspective I feel like I'm watching the crew arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. Me personally - I like what Steve does and more important his clarity and teachable methods. If this gets me through one more year and get a few more kids into high school ball I'm Ok. Maybe I just don't have the same desire or interest level you guys have.

I would however appreciate it if we eliminate the jabs. I will not let the board digress to where it was last summer.
Any problems PM me. I will be away, but should be home later this PM.

Jake

[LClifton]

My running analogy wasn't perfect, the flaw in your argument is what dictates the winner of the race and it's my fault I was not clearer. In my race, the winner isn't who finishes first, it is who achieves the highest speed during the race.
Point taken. My explanation could certainly need refining as well.
In hitting, the race is to have the fastest batspeed not to get to the finish line first. Swinging early gets you to the finish line faster but the ball might not be there yet so what good is that?
It may be the race in hitting to have the fastest batspeed which WOULD require starting early (as you propose I've said)
But the real combination is not just batspeed but couple that with swing quickness.
Slow pitch players may actually have the highest batspeed but lack the required quickness to turn around a fastball.
In the clip I posted it shows (at least to me) that it is not about swinging earlier.
It is preparation to swing, by moving, (running start-dmac) but not by moving the bat forward. In fact just the opposite.

But reaching higher bat speed is the key goal and as you said yourself, early acceleration may not achieve that.
Early accleration is achieved by setting up for the forward portion of the swing...poising the bat and body for the acceleration prior to executing the swing. By loading in such a manner that will accelerate the bat following a running start as opposed to a more "static" start position.

Like this:
Notice the continuous movement of the bat and how it is set to be accelerated forward.
It does not move foward until the front foot plants and swing decision has been made "yes" on the pitch location. Much better than a stationary bat trying to suddenly get going. Cabrerra is reading the pitch thru the entire loading sequence and has what has been referred to as a running start.
It is a good combination of bat speed and swing quickness.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/MCabrera2005FLA_SView01.gif

[TwinEngine]

A great clip.

His lead shoulder action is 'strong' as they say in the pool hall. Meaning very good.

[LClifton]

I like what Steve does and more important his clarity and teachable methods.
Perfect.....what I have found is what is dicussed and what is actually taught are different...Many things discussed are not what / how you would teach it to a young hitter.
You are right Jake,
Just so I understand, in order to have further discussion, you need to approve the clarity?

[dougmac]

I think both sides need to let it go at this point. There are opposing and/or disenting views that will not be resolved on a discussion board. The debate has existed for months and you guys are no closer to an understanding now than you were in November. From an outsider's perspective I feel like I'm watching the crew arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. Me personally - I like what Steve does and more important his clarity and teachable methods. If this gets me through one more year and get a few more kids into high school ball I'm Ok. Maybe I just don't have the same desire or interest level you guys have.

I would however appreciate it if we eliminate the jabs. I will not let the board digress to where it was last summer.
Any problems PM me. I will be away, but should be home later this PM.

Jake


Jake, The quote at the bottom of your post is what most of the heated arguments are about. "He who dares to teach must never cease to learn".

My favorite teacher is Ted Williams, but he never taught the "tip and running start" which I love, even though he did it. It just took me longer to find it without him letting me know in 1970 when he wrote his book. It does not matter, because I learned a lot from him and he is still my favorite teacher. There are many people out there who are reading and trying to learn more about the swing, but are a little shy about posting. I know that for a fact, because I hear from many of them each week. As long as the guys arn't swearing or picking on each others kids, let them hammer away...........:)