Buddy Bell for Cooperstown!

[AlecBoy006]

After doing research- I think that Buddy Bell has credentials that make him a worthy HOF candidate.


.6 Gold Gloves- I think anything 4 or more makes you a legit candidate.
.5 All Stars- Ok, not alot, but still pretty good
.279 Batting Average- I've non hofer's better, but it's good
.346 OBP- just three points behind Boyer- somebody who is mentioned commonly.
.201 Homers- not alot of power, ok. But George Kell played 3B and he had 78 homers.
OPS+ 108- Ok- let's skip that.
.2514 hits- not bad for 18 seasons.
.1106 RBI- another tempting stat.
I think Buddy Bell should be, but won't be in the Hall.

[digglahhh]

After doing research-

You mean looking at his page of BBR?

[AlecBoy006]

Yes. If that's not research, what is it?

[AlecBoy006]

How can you keep Buddy Bell out? What did he lack on offense besides a great deal of power?

[tearforamariner]

I like how you mentioned on the poll that there are third basemen better than Bell who are not int he Hall.

I think Bell was a very good third baseman in his prime, but there are so many other third baseman better than him not in the Hall. Before I even try, I'm guessing I can name 10 third baggers I'd put in before Bell, and I wouldn't even put all of those guys in. Let's see for the heck of it:

Santo
Hack
Boyer
Evans
Bando
Groh
Matt Williams
Nettles
Ventura
Gaetti
Cey
Pendleton
Bonilla
Madlock
Caminiti

Well, that's 15 right there. I'm going to stop now, but I think you get the idea. I'm sure somebody will shoutout any names I forgot. Of these players, I'd probably only support the first 5 or 6.

[jalbright]

Yes. If that's not research, what is it?

Well, your "research" would be more persuasive if you showed you knew how to handle a decimal point. Personally, I'd love to know how someone gets credited with exactly .1106 of an RBI. Now that's a stathead number if ever I've heard one. ;)

Jim Albright

[RuthMayBond]

After doing research- I think that Buddy Bell has credentials that make him a worthy HOF candidate.


.6 Gold Gloves- I think anything 4 or more makes you a legit candidate.
Good, now we can induct Del Crandall, Mike Matheny ,Charles Johnson, Vic Power, Wes Parker, JT Snow, Bobby Richardson, Bret Boone, Doug Rader, Mark Belanger, Paul Blair, Garry Maddox, Devon White, Torii Hunter, Dwayne Murphy, Jim Landis, Gary Pettis, Andy Van Slyke, Cesar Geronimo, Marquis Grissom, Mickey Stanley, Bobby Shantz, Mark Langston, AND Kenny Rogers :crazy :crazy

[AlecBoy006]

I didn't mean induction, I meant legit candidate.

[AG2004]

How can you keep Buddy Bell out? What did he lack on offense besides a great deal of power?

For starters, he lacks a Gray Ink score that's among the top 650.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would not vote for Bell for the HOF, but he certainly gave it a run.

Bell is an example of how a guy can, at age 35-36, be 50-50 for the HOF with a good chance to improve the odds, then see his chances plummet to zero with one bad season.

Bell had a pretty good year in 1987, a little above his career norms, and was approaching 2,500 hits. This was an excellent total for his age, and given his level of power and his Gold Glove defense, he looked like a guy who well might have given 3,000 hits a run. Had Bell made 3K, he'd have been in. Had Bell approached 3K with, let's say, 2,900 hits, he'd have been a strong candidate, who well may have gotten in on the strength of his defense.

Instead, Bell got hurt in 1988. That gave an opening for Chris Sabo, who pushed Bell to the bench. He never played regularly again, and retired after less than 100 ABs the next season.

I don't know if Bell could have hung in longer with the right team, but he was unable to dislodge Steve Buchele from a regular job in 1989, which was one of Buchele's poorer years with the bat. It's possible that Bell's 1988 injury had lasting effects to where it sped up his decline. Most people, including Bell himself, did not see him as a future HOFer; if they did, someone may have picked him up for marquee value.

Bell is a good example of a guy who needed 3,000 hits to make the HOF, but if he had gotten there, it would have been a testimony to his other skills (defense, medium power, solid all-around play) that remained intact long enough for him to stay in the lineup to collect that many hits. He did enough other things well enough to stay in the lineup a long time, and his defense was good enough to where he could have taken a hit at the bat and still stayed in the lineup. It didn't happen, though; Ken Caminiti emerged at Houston and Buchele was lodged in Texas, and Bell decided not to fight the crowd and retired.

What I WILL say is this: I believe Buddy Bell had a superior career to Heine Groh. There is NO WAY I could support Groh's induction given where Bell stands in the Cooperstown 3B line.

[DoubleX]

I like how you mentioned on the poll that there are third basemen better than Bell who are not int he Hall.

I think Bell was a very good third baseman in his prime, but there are so many other third baseman better than him not in the Hall. Before I even try, I'm guessing I can name 10 third baggers I'd put in before Bell, and I wouldn't even put all of those guys in. Let's see for the heck of it:

Santo
Hack
Boyer
Evans
Bando
Groh
Matt Williams
Nettles
Ventura
Gaetti
Cey
Pendleton
Bonilla
Madlock
Caminiti

Well, that's 15 right there. I'm going to stop now, but I think you get the idea. I'm sure somebody will shoutout any names I forgot. Of these players, I'd probably only support the first 5 or 6.

I agree that there are a number of 3Bman I'd put in the Hall before Bell, but I have him ahead of a number of the players you mentioned, notably Gaetti, Cey, Pendleton, Bonilla, Madlock, and Caminiti, and perhaps Williams and Ventura as well. Bell's bat was just as good if not better than most of these guys for his career, especially considering that he had nearly 2000 more ABs than most of them, and he was a better fielder than probably all of them.

Also, of your list I'd probably add Bob Elliot and Tommy Leach. I think Bob Elliot is one of the most overlooked players in history. Not saying that I'd put him in the Hall, but even in these types of conversations he seems to be forgotten.

[cavalier1968]

I agree that there are a number of 3Bman I'd put in the Hall before Bell, but I have him ahead of a number of the players you mentioned, notably Gaetti, Cey, Pendleton, Bonilla, Madlock, and Caminiti, and perhaps Williams and Ventura as well. Bell's bat was just as good if not better than most of these guys for his career, especially considering that he had nearly 2000 more ABs than most of them, and he was a better fielder than probably all of them.

Also, of your list I'd probably add Bob Elliot and Tommy Leach. I think Bob Elliot is one of the most overlooked players in history. Not saying that I'd put him in the Hall, but even in these types of conversations he seems to be forgotten.

I appreciate the compliments on Bell.

He was my favorite player.....I grew up in Cleveland in the 70's and early 80's...

I have never seen a better fielder at 3b, not so much for the diving play,but positioning and an accurate arm. Good hitter, great for hit and run, great fielder. He needed several other attributes to get to the hall....

3000 hits might have done it
playing for better teams would have helped
walking more might have helped

Underrated, great great fielder.....good bat.....:coffee

Cav

[DoubleX]

3000 hits might have done it
playing for better teams would have helped
walking more might have helped

Bell through his early 30s, looked like he had a decent chance at getting to 3000 hits. He finished with 2514 hits, but he declined very quickly, with his last good season coming at age 35 and he was done by age 37. If he could have declined better and hung for a few more years, he would have had a decent chance of making it to 3000. Regardless, I believe his 2514 hits are more than any of the other 3Bman that have been mentioned in this conversation.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bell through his early 30s, looked like he had a decent chance at getting to 3000 hits. He finished with 2514 hits, but he declined very quickly, with his last good season coming at age 35 and he was done by age 37. If he could have declined better and hung for a few more years, he would have had a decent chance of making it to 3000. Regardless, I believe his 2514 hits are more than any of the other 3Bman that have been mentioned in this conversation.

Had Bell made it to 2,900 hits, he'd have most likely gotten in. Had he made it to 2,800 hits, he'd probably still have gotten in. He would have looked enough like Brooks Robinson at that point to where his candidacy might have had some juice.

There were key differences between Bell and Robinson, all of which favor Robinson pretty much:



Robinson was the best 3B in the AL; Bell never was.
Robinson's stats were compiled in a tougher era for hitters
Robinson was the better fielder, and won more Gold Gloves
Robinson won an MVP; Bell never came close
Robinson played for highly successful teams
Robinson played in far more All-Star games


One could argue that Robin Ventura is a better pick than Bell, although Ventura is not yet eligible. Graig Nettles and Darrell Evans have better cases. Bob Elliott has just as good a case, at worst. On the other hand, Bell clearly ranks ahead of Cey, Madlock, Gaetti, Caminiti, and Wallach. Needless to say, Santo, Boyer, Hack, and Bando should go in before Bell.

[DoubleX]

Robinson was the best 3B in the AL; Bell never was.

Nice post and I agree with you general assessment of Bell in relation to other 3Bmen on the outside. However, when Robinson played, he didn't have someone like George Brett to compete with for the mantle of best 3Bman in the AL. IMO, other than Brett Bell has a strong case for being the best 3Bman in the AL from 1979-1981 and he might have been the best in 1984 as both George Brett and Wade Boggs experienced down years - their slight advantages in OPS+ over Bell may have been made up for by Bell's defensive prowess.

[tearforamariner]

I agree that there are a number of 3Bman I'd put in the Hall before Bell, but I have him ahead of a number of the players you mentioned, notably Gaetti, Cey, Pendleton, Bonilla, Madlock, and Caminiti, and perhaps Williams and Ventura as well. Bell's bat was just as good if not better than most of these guys for his career, especially considering that he had nearly 2000 more ABs than most of them, and he was a better fielder than probably all of them.

Also, of your list I'd probably add Bob Elliot and Tommy Leach. I think Bob Elliot is one of the most overlooked players in history. Not saying that I'd put him in the Hall, but even in these types of conversations he seems to be forgotten.

I see your point on these candidates. I don't think Bell's bat was as good as Madlock, Bonilla, or Cey, even with the AB edge. I agree that, as a fielder, Bell was lightyears ahead of these guys. So I agree with you. I actually made this list without looking at stats, so I guess that I was doomed from the beginning.

Still, the list of third basemen in front of Bell is long.

[Sockeye]

Bell was a good player, but not a HOF caliber player.

[DoubleX]

Still, there list of third basemen in front of Bell is long.

It's pretty long. I'd probably put in Santo, Hack, Boyer, Evans, Nettles, Bando, Elliot, before Bell, then I'd also strongly consider Groh and perhaps Tommy Leach (though he could be considered in CF as well).

[tearforamariner]

It's pretty long. I'd probably put in Santo, Hack, Boyer, Evans, Nettles, Bando, Elliot, before Bell, then I'd also strongly consider Groh and perhaps Tommy Leach (though he could be considered in CF as well).

Agreed. I would probably only put Santo, Hack, Boyer, and Evans in. I'd have to think long and hard about Nettles, Bando, Elliot, and Groh. I'd put all of them in before I'd advocate for Bell.

One thing is for sure: There aren't enough third basemen in the Hall right now.

[dgarza]

When I see that I have at least all these players ahead of Buddy Bell, then I know it's not time to start dipping into the "Buddy Bell level" of thirdbasemen. And these are just those eligible.

(not in order, probably not complete)
Ken Boyer
Ron Santo
Dick Allen
Al Rosen
Stan Hack
Graig Nettles
Bob Elliott
Sal Bando
Denny Lyons
Eddie Yost
Heinie Groh
Darrell Evans
Bobby Bonilla
Tommy Leach
Deacon White
Bill Madlock
Howard Johnson
Red Rolfe
Lave Cross
Ezra Sutton
Harlond Clift
Heinie Zimmerman
Ron Cey

I do not advocate HOF for all of these players, they are just those ahead of Bell.

[Cougar]

Lave Cross is a guy that seems to me to be at least superficially quite similar to Bell.

Obviously played the same position. Offensively, never great but always either good or very good over a rather lengthy career. Defensively, I think Cross had a reputation as being pretty solid with the glove; Bell was obviously sterling.

Cross's stats are a bit better, but obviously Bell played against much tougher competition given any sort of era adjustment. And, I'm guessing that a lot of Cross's triples would translate into HR's in the modern game (as would a fair number of fly-outs), yielding a pretty comparable number of extra-base hits.

Just a thought...I don't know really where I'm going with this.

[Fuzzy Bear]

When I see that I have at least all these players ahead of Buddy Bell, then I know it's not time to start dipping into the "Buddy Bell level" of thirdbasemen. And these are just those eligible.

(not in order, probably not complete)
Ken Boyer
Ron Santo
Dick Allen
Al Rosen
Stan Hack
Graig Nettles
Bob Elliott
Sal Bando
Denny Lyons
Eddie Yost
Heinie Groh
Darrell Evans
Bobby Bonilla
Tommy Leach
Deacon White
Bill Madlock
Howard Johnson
Red Rolfe
Lave Cross
Ezra Sutton
Harlond Clift
Heinie Zimmerman
Ron Cey

I do not advocate HOF for all of these players, they are just those ahead of Bell.

The guys I've highlighted are, IMO, behind Bell, not ahead.

[MDog795]

Buddy Bell was a pretty good baseball player. But he will NEVER make the hall of fame!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Buddy Bell was a pretty good baseball player. But he will NEVER make the hall of fame!

Probably true.

The reason Bell makes for an interesting thread is how close he came, and how he was ALMOST to the level where he could be a serious HOF candidate. Then he fell apart, all at once.

Three more years of full time play well may have done the trick for Buddy, but he may well have been the kind of guy who didn't want to hang on when he was mediocre. Playing THIRD base at age 40 is a mean trick, and Bell didn't hit enough near the end to stay in the lineup if he couldn't stay at third.

[Brian McKenna]

Bell is obviously a damn good ballplayer like so many others but just as obviously not among the top 300-400 that ever played the game. HOF come on?

I was lucky enough to drive to Philly one night when him hit a grand slam - same night Schmidt tied Mantle on the all-time HR list.

[CTaka]

Well, your "research" would be more persuasive if you showed you knew how to handle a decimal point. Personally, I'd love to know how someone gets credited with exactly .1106 of an RBI. Now that's a stathead number if ever I've heard one. ;)

Jim Albright

I believe if the baserunner's shoe comes off and touches the plate but the runner is tagged out, the batter is only credited with .1106 of an RBI. He gets .6342 of an RBI if the runner is Shaquille O'Neal. :laugh

[KCGHOST]

Bell was a fine player who had a career to be proud of, but not an HoF one. Shouldn't be seriously considered.

[Fuzzy Bear]

While Bell was not the player Brooks Robinson was, the similarities beg the question of just how overrated Brooks is.

I love Brooks. He's one of the good guys of MLB. But he was, and is, overrated; by how much is the question.

How far behind Brooks Robinson do you have to be to be a HOF third baseman? And how far behind is Buddy Bell?

[JDD]

Buddy Bell did everything you would want your favorite player to do if you were pulling for him to make the HOF.

Land a starting gig before turning 21.
Run off twelve good years in a row. (some better than others of course, but not one stinker from 73-84)
Hit for a high batting average (HOF voters like that).
Hit more homers when he hit his prime.
Play good defense. (Six straight Gold Gloves I think.... ?)
Continue to play well up to his age 35 year (as he walked more than he struck out).

But then, dang it, the wheels fell off. His career rate stats look real good, because his decline phase lasted less than one season's worth of playing time.... he just quickly stopped producing. He was averaging more than one hit a game, and lacks those last five hundred games at the end of his career to get to 3000 hits. He probably would have been among the worst players ever to reach that plateau, but still quite a feat considering he is epileptic (he has never had a seizure on the field as far as I know).

A he had a nice career, and he had a chance to manage. Any updates on his cancer?

[philkid3]

Weird, I was JUST talking about this elsewhere.

While I don't think Bell should be in the Hall of Fame, I think he deserves a long look and got pretty close. I think he's become horrifically underrated today.

[henrich]

Bell is 25th at 3B with a score of 8111

1. Schmidt 15,114
2. Brett 13,028
3. Robinson 13,012
4. Matthews 11,512
5. Jones, Chipper 10,922
6. Boggs 10,725
7. Nettles 10,208
8. Home Run Baker 9927
9. Boyer 9758
10. Williams, Matt 9678
11. Santo 9198
12. Evans 9072
13. Gaetti 9033
14. Martinez Edgar 9017
15. Cross, Lave 8890
16. Bonilla 8768
17. Bando 8767
18. Cey 8671
19. Pendleton 8525
20. Elliot Bob 8515
21. Hack, Stan 8460
22. Gardner, Larry 8255
23. Dykes, Jimmy 8222
24. Ventura, Robin 8188
25. Bell, Buddy 8111
26. Castilla, Vinny 8089
27. Groh, Heinie 8060
28. Scott Rolen 8030
29. Carney Lansford 7994
30. Jimmy Collins 7859


This backs up what many of you are saying.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't remember what transpired, but I think Bell retired too early.

Bell got off to a slow start in 1988, in part due to injuries. He had a pretty good 1987, but the Reds had a good replacement for Bell in Chris Sabo, so Bell was dealt to the Astros in June for a PTBNL.

Bell didn't play all that badly for the Astros. He posted a .467 Offensive Winning Percentage, which isn't great, but isn't the living end if you are a Gold Glove-caliber third baseman who has done better in the past. The Astros, however, had Ken Caminiti waiting in the wings, so Bell was released. He signed on with the Rangers, his old team, but started slow and retired.

Bell, I'm sure, did not view himself as a potential HOFer, and was thinking about his career in baseball post-playing days. He was far enough away from 3,000 hits that it was unlikely that he would be able to make it. But I believe that Bell COULD have come closer if he had decided to find a team that would play him regularly. His glove was still up to the task, and he might have been able to hold a regular job for an extra year. That wouldn't have put him at 3,000, but it MIGHT have gotten him to 2,800 hits, and that, coupled with his Gold Gloves, MIGHT have gotten him more HOF support.

[Paul Wendt]

Bill James revised his first Historical Baseball Abstract for 1988 publication. Through the 1987 season he ranked Buddy Bell seventh in that century, about 80 years, between Ron Santo and Ken Boyer. He wrote that Bell's career was only long story of slow steady growth.

[RuthMayBond]

Bell is 25th at 3B with a score of 8111

1. Schmidt 15,114
2. Brett 13,028
3. Robinson 13,012
4. Matthews 11,512
5. Jones, Chipper 10,922
6. Boggs 10,725
7. Nettles 10,208
8. Home Run Baker 9927
9. Boyer 9758
10. Williams, Matt 9678
11. Santo 9198
12. Evans 9072
13. Gaetti 9033
14. Martinez Edgar 9017
15. Cross, Lave 8890
16. Bonilla 8768
17. Bando 8767
18. Cey 8671
19. Pendleton 8525
20. Elliot Bob 8515
21. Hack, Stan 8460
22. Gardner, Larry 8255
23. Dykes, Jimmy 8222
24. Ventura, Robin 8188
25. Bell, Buddy 8111
26. Castilla, Vinny 8089
27. Groh, Heinie 8060
28. Scott Rolen 8030
29. Carney Lansford 7994

and then

30. Jimmy Collins 7859
If this is a Hall of Fame predictor ...

[SABR Matt]

I can't believe the lack of support for Bell. Considering how weak third base is as a position, Bell's exemplary defensive record gives him just as strong a case as Pie Traynor...who made the HOF easily.

[SABR Matt]

Here's the HOF Marker ranking for Bell:

First Last
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Eddie Mathews
Paul Molitor
Wade Boggs
Edgar Martinez
Ron Santo
Darrell Evans
Brooks Robinson
Frank Baker
Stan Hack
Graig Nettles
Buddy Bell

[henrich]

Bell is 25th at 3B with a score of 8111

1. Schmidt 15,114
2. Brett 13,028
3. Robinson 13,012
4. Matthews 11,512
5. Jones, Chipper 10,922
6. Boggs 10,725
7. Nettles 10,208
8. Home Run Baker 9927
9. Boyer 9758
10. Williams, Matt 9678
11. Santo 9198
12. Evans 9072
13. Gaetti 9033
14. Martinez Edgar 9017
15. Cross, Lave 8890
16. Bonilla 8768
17. Bando 8767
18. Cey 8671
19. Pendleton 8525
20. Elliot Bob 8515
21. Hack, Stan 8460
22. Gardner, Larry 8255
23. Dykes, Jimmy 8222
24. Ventura, Robin 8188
25. Bell, Buddy 8111
26. Castilla, Vinny 8089
27. Groh, Heinie 8060
28. Scott Rolen 8030
29. Carney Lansford 7994
30. Jimmy Collins 7859


This backs up what many of you are saying.

Ruth may bond. I forgot Pie Traynor in there at #12 so Collins doesn't make the top 30, sorry about that. What this tells you is that Jimmy Collins is a mistake just like George Kell and Fred Lindstrom. If you look at the top 20, I don't think you get much argument, though many in this forum probably would disagree with me on Collins, the remainder of the list I think they would think I was dead on. Perhaps it's a predictor and a ranking. That's the way I use it. Those that are outliers don't belong. Jimmy Collins is one of those people that aren't an awful choice, but they aren't the best choice either. You can see how Ron Santo falls here, and many others that get the attention of this peer group.