The modern approach to hitting

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I hope BBF's experienced ballplayers, Sultan and hiddengem, could chime in as well. What do hitters like Adam Dunn and Richie Sexton do "wrong" at the plate to pile up such huge strikeout totals and low batting averages? Even a player like Rayn Howard ,who hit .313/.425/.659, 58 HRs and 108 walks, struck out an incredible 181 times! It seems like an oxymoron for a player to hit .313 with tremendous power and draw walks to strikeout like Dave Kingman. What does Howard to differently than, say, Jimmie Foxx or Hank Greenberg at the plate? Is it a longer swing, not using the hands, lack of plate coverage, etc?

The reason I ask is that I've learned some things from Sultan's posts about the modern approach to the hitting. I was wondering how did baseball get to where it is now? The great power hitters of the past didn't strikeout like they do today.

[Mattingly]

Far from an expert, but I'd guess that it's lack of plate discipline. Some guys will hack away at anything. If they're not disciplined upon what kinds of pitches to avoid, then they may end up chasing lots of pitches out of the zone.

Reggie Jackson, the King of Swing (and-a-miss) had the same career .263 BA as did light-hitting Ozzie Smith.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/howarry01.shtml

Ryan Howard had only 1 more hit (182) than whiffs (181). I guess that one person makes lots of GIDPs, another, lots of flyouts. Everyone picks their poison as to making out. If anything, if you hit >.300 and have barely more hits than strikeouts, I'd say that you have fewer ABs than do others with lower AVGs, and also few of the other kinds of outs that sluggers are prone to make.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Far from an expert, but I'd guess that it's lack of plate discipline. Some guys will hack away at anything. If they're not disciplined upon what kinds of pitches to avoid, then they may end up chasing lots of pitches out of the zone.

Reggie Jackson, the King of Swing (and-a-miss) had the same career .263 BA as did light-hitting Ozzie Smith.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/howarry01.shtml

Ryan Howard had only 1 more hit (182) than whiffs (181). I guess that one person makes lots of GIDPs, another, lots of flyouts. Everyone picks their poison as to making out. If anything, if you hit >.300 and have barely more hits than strikeouts, I'd say that you have fewer ABs than do others with lower AVGs, and also few of the other kinds of outs that sluggers are prone to make.
How do you define good plate discipline? I always thought drawing a large number of walks was one sign of good plate discipline. Howard had 108 BBs in '06 but 37 were IBBs. But Dunn draws hardly any IBBs and he still draws 100 BBs a year. I just can't wrap my mind over the idea of a hitter having poor plate discipline and still drawing 100 BBs.

[Mattingly]

How do you define good plate discipline? I always thought drawing a large number of walks was one sign of good plate discipline. Howard had 108 BBs in '06 but 37 were IBBs. But Dunn draws hardly any IBBs and he still draws 100 BBs a year. I just can't wrap my mind over the idea of a hitter having poor plate discipline and still drawing 100 BBs.
Plate discipline is one of those overused terms. I basically think that examples would be more helpful. Otherwise, it's like calling a woman beautiful, or a kid a protege. Overused terms that have become cliched.

If you regularly swing away at a pitch that's way out of the zone, would've been ball 4, yet look at a meatball down the middle for strike 3, I'd say that's an example of bad plate discipline. If you don't take many pitches, I'd say that's bad also. If someone can give me an 8-pitch AB every now and then, I'd say that fouling off those balls represents good plate discipline. The pitcher could just throw something very useful, or even a wild pitch if his control is lacking.

Some players also know which pitches to turn on and can get a single or even a double on something that a lesser hitter couldn't even touch.

In either case, I'd say that a batter has to be very selective about what he puts into play. If he can't do anything with a pitch, but one that would still go for a strike, I'd say that fouling it off represents good plate discipline. Of course, working with a good trainer and knowing one's limits would obviously be excellent ideas.

Also, while the strikeout may be one of the least productive outs, I'd say that a DP would be the least. If you've got 1 out, a DP ends the inning. Meanwhile, even on a strikeout, a base can still be stolen.

[digglahhh]

How do you define good plate discipline? I always thought drawing a large number of walks was one sign of good plate discipline. Howard had 108 BBs in '06 but 37 were IBBs. But Dunn draws hardly any IBBs and he still draws 100 BBs a year. I just can't wrap my mind over the idea of a hitter having poor plate discipline and still drawing 100 BBs.

Swinging and missing, by definition, prolongs ABs, giving the pitcher more chances to throw balls. Plus, sometimes sluggers just get pitched around.

[Myankee4life]

I play baseball for my high school. These are some of the problems of the low BA/ high SO guys

- Pulling off every pitch
- uppercut
- guess hitting

BTW, look at my sophmore year stats

http://psal.org/psalsports/player/psal_playerprofile.asp?cid=251857157&csport=028

[Old Sweater]

I play baseball for my high school. These are some of the problems of the low BA/ high SO guys

- Pulling off every pitch
- uppercut
- guess hitting

BTW, look at my sophmore year stats

http://psal.org/psalsports/player/psal_playerprofile.asp?cid=251857157&csport=028

Nice stats.

Why only 14 AB's?

[Myankee4life]

Nice stats.

Why only 14 AB's?

I had slid wrong and twisted my ankle. I didn't play all of last year, im planning to get in shape this year. But I missed a whole year, so I dont know how effective im gonna be.

[Paul McCartney]

I was wondering how did baseball get to where it is now? The great power hitters of the past didn't strikeout like they do today.
Yes, the strikeout numbers for sluggers these days are quite outrageous and indeed inflated from the past eras, some of the reasons may be:

There are more power pitchers in the leauge than ever, most hurlers try to strikeout every hitter they face, and few pitchers practice the finess style that is aimed towards getting batters to make contact to get outs. As mentioned earlier in the forum, hitters still walk incredible amounts in addition to striking out, this is due in large part by the power pitchers walking batters in result of trying to throw a perfect pitch every time aiming to strike them out (the famous Nolan Ryan approach.)

Also, hitters are absored more than ever into hitting home runs. Reason being is the insipid emphasis our generation puts on home run totals as if it's the only stat that defines a player's greatness. Therefore, hitters strive to just hit home runs and not much else., which likely directly leads to the mass use of steroids in this era of baseball.

[tigers527]

For the entirety of the 5 minutes or so I have been reading this thread. I thought that perhaps this reason gives you both a good number of walks and Ks for the type of hitters we are talking about. The smaller strike zone? It can be said with certainty that the players of olde had to have much better plate coverage to maintain a decent BA. Since someone like Greenberg was going to get many more called strikes from the old letters to the knees and entire width of the plate. Greenberg would of had to adjust to pitches more, just to keep at the plate, without being called out on strikes.

While this answer makes simple sense when it comes to the high number of walks, it might seem that a smaller strike zone should lessen the strikeouts? However, if a batter has a comfort zone and the expectation of a pitch having to be grooved thigh to belt high right down the middle for a certain called strike, they can swing for the fences at everything that looks good? Perhaps the letter high strike would actually have players begin to choke up on the 2nd strike like in the old days????

Just my 2 cents?

[LouGehrig]

Mickey Mantle said that the reason Dimaggio and Williams were better hitters was that they didn't go for the home run on every swing, as he did.

Mickey said that sometimes, against a hard thrower, he would start his swing before the pitcher released the ball because if he didn't, he couldn't catch up to it.

Today's pitchers throw harder than any in the history of the game. More pitchers today throw harder than ever. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were Feller, Reynolds, Duren, Chance, Koufax, Seaver, Gibson, etc., but they were the top and the drop off in velocity was great.

Today, every team has six or seven or more hard throwers. Most are not great or even good PITCHERS, but they throw hard. The hitters must do what Mickey did. They don't have as much reaction time as hitters in the past had, so they must make their decisions faster.

Today, most hitters go for the long ball. Therefore, more strikeouts.

[hiddengem]

Money lies in the RBI's folks. Teams could care less how many strikeouts you have if you are producing(if that is your role). .313 with 58 Jacks is called producing. Sexton and Howard know what kind of hitter they are and what they are expected to do. They are expected to produce, not hit singles.

Different story for a guy like Eckstein or Figgins. They are expected to set the table, get on base, work the count, hit and run ect.

Remember that most power hitters don't shorten up when they get to 2 strikes. They are looking to do damage in all counts. Also, when you are working deep in counts where you are drawing walks you are usually in quite a few 2 strike counts which puts you in a position to strike out.

Take a guy like V. Guerrero. He is up their hacking and not looking to draw a walk. He'll swing at the first pitch, second pitch, whatever. Many guys will never swing at the first pitch. He has an incredible ability to put the bat on the ball and his stats reflect his style. 520ab's 61bb 48ks


Also, you cannot compare a hitter from the 50's to a guy in the 90's-2000's. Way better pitching, different game altogether, steroids, more money for power ect ect.

[SportsTalker]

As several people have already talked about I think it stems from the long ball.

The guys that have high walk and high strike out totals do have a "good eye" so they tend to get deep in counts and if they do not get that right pitch with the right swing they end up with either a K (miss thier pitch) or a BB (never get the right pitch).

Add to it that same as the hitters want the HR most pitchers are looking for the K. Even though there are more good to very good pitchers there are also far more average to below average pitchers. Batters with a "good eye" can pray on the lesser pitchers for thier HR's and BB's while suffering to K's to the better pitchers.

[stevebogus]

Power hitting has long been associated with strikeouts. Batters who have led their league in strikeouts in the 1920s-30s include the names Babe Ruth, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Wally Berger, Dolph Camilli. They swung hard and sacrificed some bat control for the ability to hit the ball hard. They also took lots of pitches while looking for one they could drive, so they went deeper into the count.

In the deadball era striking out was just about the worst thing you could do as a batter. HRs were scarce. Pitchers were unafraid to throw strikes. Doubleplays were far less frequent than today. Teams needed to advance runners any way they could, and that meant making contact and hitting the ball on the ground. Babe Ruth was the first batter to hit enough HRs to change that. And along with Ruth's HRs came strikeouts. Although Ruth never had more than 93 strikeouts in a season he led the AL 5 times.

Modern power hitters strike out at rates approximately double that of Ruth. I can think of several reasons why:

1. More effective pitches. I don't believe that modern pitchers throw much harder than those of years ago, but I do think they have a more varied array of breaking pitches. For a few decades after the spitball/scuffball ban pitchers simply didn't have enough different pitches. Strikeout rates during that period were lower than any other (since the adoption of the foul strike rule). Even pitchers known for blazing speed didn't strike out all that many batters in this period.

2. The relief pitcher as a specialist. Starters no longer need to go through the lineup 4 times or more, have less of a need to pace themselves. Batters are facing fresher pitchers and (related to above) often the reliever is throwing a different repertoire of pitches.

3. Thinner bats. Hitters now use thinner bats because they don't want a heavy bat, and you cannot manufacture lightweight wood bats with a full-diameter barrel. The tradeoff is bat speed for hitting area.

4. The stigma of the strikeout has all but disapppeared. Batters are no longer expected to choke up and put the ball in play after strike two. They are free to swing away.

Some figures on bat control: The best contact hitters will hit the ball over 90% of the time on pitches they decide to swing at (including fouls). A Boggs or Gwynn would be up around 95%. The high strikeout guys will only contact about 65%-70% of the pitches they swing at. A batter's strikeout to walk ratio is a great indicator of how often he makes contact. A high strikeout rate is defensible if combined with a high walk rate. That just means the batter is working the count while trying to get a good pitch.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

So what does Albert Pujols do right to not strikeout like a modern power hitter? He's struck out just 394 times in six seasons and just 301 times the past five seasons.

[digglahhh]

So what does Albert Pujols do right to not strikeout like a modern power hitter? He's struck out just 394 times in six seasons and just 301 times the past five seasons.

Everything!:laugh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Everything!:laugh
Thanks! That explains everything now! :laugh

[hellborn]

So what does Albert Pujols do right to not strikeout like a modern power hitter? He's struck out just 394 times in six seasons and just 301 times the past five seasons.
I'm curious to see if some of the real hitting gurus will reply to this, but I feel like Pujols is so strong and has such a well-controlled, tuned-in swing that he can hit with amazing power without swinging wildly. He basically has no stride, just points his toe down and then puts the foot back, and he doesn't lunge at the ball. I also think that he takes more of an "old fashioned" approach with two strikes, still trying to hit the ball hard but willing to go with the pitch instead of pulling it.
Plus, the guy is just amazingly talented and works really hard! I get the feeling that he takes a strikeout as more of an affront than some hitters, it's an unacceptable way of failing for him. Not the Jack Clark-esque "oh well, I'll just jack one next time." Not a slam on Clark, I loved to watch him hit, but he clearly was not that worried about striking out at a pretty good clip.

[stevebogus]

So what does Albert Pujols do right to not strikeout like a modern power hitter? He's struck out just 394 times in six seasons and just 301 times the past five seasons.

I don't know much about the mechanics of hitting, but Pujols has more bat control than players such as McGwire and Sosa did. Besides that, he tends to attack pitches earlier in the count than hitters such as Barry Bonds and Frank Thomas. This reduces both strikeouts and walks. In that way he is more like a Joe DiMaggio or Johnny Mize type hitter. Or, for that matter, like Aaron or Mays. None of those great hitters struck out as often as the typical power hitters of their day, and they didn't walk as much as the guys who took lots of pitches.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well most of these power hitters aren't contact hitters. The greats (Ted, Joe, and Stan) weren't power hitters...they were contact hitters with tremendous power. They didn't K a whole lot, made contact alot...but they were able to jack the ball out of the park if needed.