Pitching Elbow hurting (10 yr old-almost 11)

[losgadas]

My son has pitched for three seasons. He is now 10 years old, one month shy of 11.

Last season he did not pitch.

This offseason, while attempting to ready him for next Spring season, he started complaining of his elbow hurting. It all started one day when he tried to impress other kids. When we practice, he does not complain while stretching, tubing, medicine ball, running; but, after throwing only a few pitches (10) with a regular ball, he will start complaining of his elbow hurting lightly.

This coming week, I will take him to the doctor for an Xray to see if the doctor can detect anything out of the ordinary.

However, in the midst of the frustration of not being able to practice pitching, I mention this situation to see if anyone has experienced similar problems with a kid near this age.

[EdmondsFan#1]

My son has pitched for three seasons. He is now 10 years old, one month shy of 11.

Last season he did not pitch.

This offseason, while attempting to ready him for next Spring season, he started complaining of his elbow hurting. It all started one day when he tried to impress other kids. When we practice, he does not complain while stretching, tubing, medicine ball, running; but, after throwing only a few pitches (10) with a regular ball, he will start complaining of his elbow hurting lightly.

This coming week, I will take him to the doctor for an Xray to see if the doctor can detect anything out of the ordinary.

However, in the midst of the frustration of not being able to practice pitching, I mention this situation to see if anyone has experienced similar problems with a kid near this age.

Might have strained something or have tendinitis.

I had the same problem with my pitching elbow (14) and I had tendinitis, what I did was take it easy for about 3 weeks and used icy hot patches when it was soar.

I couldn't see a pull being a possibility because when I pulled my upper abes (not sure what it's scientifically called) from lifting weights it would've have been impossible to even throw the ball.


I was thirteen when I had the tendinitis and I was pitching during the summer at my pitching net, about 5 times a week for 2 hours. Yeah, not a good idea I learned. And I was 10-11 when I pulled a muscle lifting weights.

[Jake Patterson]

However, in the midst of the frustration of not being able to practice pitching, I mention this situation to see if anyone has experienced similar problems with a kid near this age.

Yes,
First thing to do is stop throwing, until you identify why he has pain.

I hate to say this, but will because I am certain others are thinking it. This is common with children whose parents feel they need to "Prepare" a 10 year old for their up-coming season. The pain may be an indication that he simply is playing too much ball, using the wrong techniques or both. Having pitched for three years I would first have to ask how many games is he playing or how much is he throwing? Is it rec travel or both?

A pre-pubescent body is susceptible to damage no matter how well you prepare it.

The second thing I would address is technique - But we would need to see a clip before any of us could offer any help.

Bringing him to a doctor is the right step.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Also, if the doctor doesn't sense anything abnormal I would reccomend him to not even touch a ball for a full week. After 1 week if he's still feeling some pain i'd give him rest for another week. If it takes more than 2 weeks he better see the doctor again.

[losgadas]

Yes,
Having pitched for three years I would first have to ask how many games is he playing or how much is he throwing? Is it rec travel or both?

The second thing I would address is technique - But we would need to see a clip before any of us could offer any help.

Bringing him to a doctor is the right step.


He is only playing rec ball. He plays Winter and Spring seasons. In each season, there are approximately twenty (20) games. However, this is not always the case because last season, he missed three weeks with a foot problem. So, he probably only played about 15 games all season. A couple of seasons ago, he missed half the season after a hurricane. Also, he did not pitch last season.

As for the technique, it can be attributed to both coach and student. Coach because I have introduced him to different styles of pitching to sort of figure out which is better for him. And student, because he will change the way he pitches without him even knowing it.

How much is he throwing? Well, in the off season, and when we are able to, we try to practice at least once a week for about 90 minutes. Of course, when the season was over we did not practice for about a month, maybe longer.

[Jake Patterson]

Los,
this all sounds very reasonable... Do you have any clips of him throwing?

[losgadas]

This problem surfaced for the first time a couple of months ago. When we realized it was a problem, it took him three weeks to recuperate. Then, we decided to extend the rest for a fourth week as extra precaution.

Since then, I asked him that if he ever feels any discomfort whatsoever to let me know. And, the last three or four practices we've had, we've had to end the pitching part of practice because he said he was starting to feel discomfort.

[losgadas]

I do not have a current video of him pitching. This coming weekend I will try to film him again. I will just have him pitch to record the tape. The last video was taken some time last year.

One of the biggest problems I've had with his mechanics, IMO, is that he is not consistent. He will change the way he pitches considerably from day to day.

That is one of the reasons I am trying to help him get stronger that way he can control his body more effectively.

[rocko]

I am a physician. I do not specialize in orthopedics, but coach little league and my son plays. It is a real bad sign your son was hurting one month ago and again now. You can forget him pitching this season and he may not be able to play at all this season. Do not let him screw up his arm permanently because you want him to be something. Throw away all the tubes and medicine balls.

See a sports medicine specialist and be prepared to possible skip a year worth of baseball.

[Jake Patterson]

I do not have a current video of him pitching. This coming weekend I will try to film him again. I will just have him pitch to record the tape. The last video was taken some time last year.

One of the biggest problems I've had with his mechanics, IMO, is that he is not consistent. He will change the way he pitches considerably from day to day.

That is one of the reasons I am trying to help him get stronger that way he can control his body more effectively.

The thing I would look at first is the way he throws to determine whether or not he is consistant with that. Does he have good and consistant transition, shoulder rotation, arm angle, follow through, hip rotation, toe plant, etc...


First see a doctor though.......

[EdmondsFan#1]

I am a physician. I do not specialize in orthopedics, but coach little league and my son plays. It is a real bad sign your son was hurting one month ago and again now. You can forget him pitching this season and he may not be able to play at all this season. Do not let him screw up his arm permanently because you want him to be something. Throw away all the tubes and medicine balls.

See a sports medicine specialist and be prepared to possible skip a year worth of baseball.

Whoa... Don't you think he should see a doctor to see what kind of injury it is first?

[Baseball gLove]

Whoa... Don't you think he should see a doctor to see what kind of injury it is first?

That is what he is saying.

[rocko]

I have been around a long time and treat mostly musculoskeletal injuries in adults. The clincher in this case is reoccuring pain. This means it is an overuse phenomenon in a child whose bones are growing and tendons have not matured. This is a bad case scenario. In adults, these chronic overuse injuries can take up one to two years before the tissue has healed on a microscopic level (albeit they may be pain free). In children, it can be worse and cause alot of permanent damage. It just ain't worth it. I hope I am wrong (but usually are not).

[Chris O'Leary]

This offseason, while attempting to ready him for next Spring season, he started complaining of his elbow hurting.

Does he show the ball to CF or 2B? Does he always try to keep his fingers on top of the ball?


When we practice, he does not complain while stretching, tubing, medicine ball, running; but, after throwing only a few pitches (10) with a regular ball, he will start complaining of his elbow hurting lightly.

You might be overdoing things, given that he is 11. This heavy of a workout schedule doesn't really begin to put off until a kid is 15 or so.

[Chris O'Leary]

This problem surfaced for the first time a couple of months ago. When we realized it was a problem, it took him three weeks to recuperate. Then, we decided to extend the rest for a fourth week as extra precaution.

Since this seems to happen a lot, it may be that he has a mechanical problem. He could be inadvertently throwing a slider by twisting his wrist through the release point.

[Jake Patterson]

You might be overdoing things, given that he is 11. This heavy of a workout schedule doesn't really begin to put off until a kid is 15 or so.

Chris do you have a clip or pic by pic presentation of a youth pitcher using good form?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris do you have a clip or pic by pic presentation of a youth pitcher using good form?

No.

Let me see about putting one together using a clip of Greg Maddux from when he was in HS.

[Jake Patterson]

No.

Let me see about putting one together using a clip of Greg Maddux from when he was in HS.
This would be great.

As I told you before I made a flip book of the Kerry Woods pic by pic presentation you made and it has been helpful. Someone younger may be even more helpful.

[Chris O'Leary]

This would be great.

As I told you before I made a flip book of the Kerry Woods pic by pic presentation you made and it has been helpful. Someone younger may be even more helpful.

Here it is...

- Frame By Frame Analysis - Greg Maddux (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/Documents/FrameByFrameAnalysis_GregMaddux.pdf)

[Jake Patterson]

Here it is...

- Frame By Frame Analysis - Greg Maddux (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/Documents/FrameByFrameAnalysis_GregMaddux.pdf)

Thanks!! .

[scorekeeper]

Here it is...

- Frame By Frame Analysis - Greg Maddux (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/Documents/FrameByFrameAnalysis_GregMaddux.pdf)

Chris,

May we share the pdf with others?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris,

May we share the pdf with others?

Yes.

That's fine with me.

[losgadas]

We already have an appointment for tomorrow for him to see a pediatrician.

To answer Chris O'Leary:

Mostly, he shows the ball to second base or CF. Not sure if there is a difference between the two. Normally, not third base. His fingers are consistently on top of the ball.

Although I have always warned him not to twist the wrist, he will, once in a while, twist the wrist.

My feeling is that he tends to throw with the elbow too low: lower than the shoulder.

But, one thing I want to mention, is I have seen many kids his age pitch in different leagues and many of them are able to throw with consistent mechanics.

Not sure why, but he always (my son) seems to gradually change his mechanics while pitching. He'll start with the elbow high and lower it little by little. Or, he'll have a long stride in the beginning and then will shorten it at the end. Or, have a flat back and then not as he goes along.

I want to thank everyone for continuing to post your replies. They mean alot to me.
For sure, tomorrow, I will post any new information obtained from the doctor.

thanks,

[Chris O'Leary]

Mostly, he shows the ball to second base or CF. Not sure if there is a difference between the two. Normally, not third base. His fingers are consistently on top of the ball.

I think both of these things are potentially problematic and may be related to his problems. It very common, but my opinion bad, advice.

If you look at successful major leaguers, most show the ball to 3B, not 2B or CF. They also don't keep their fingers on top of the ball as long as they can.


Although I have always warned him not to twist the wrist, he will, once in a while, twist the wrist.

This can be bad and may be related to the problems above.


My feeling is that he tends to throw with the elbow too low: lower than the shoulder.

In my experience this is rarely a problem. Instead, the bigger problem is having the elbow too high; too far above the level of the shoudlers.


Not sure why, but he always (my son) seems to gradually change his mechanics while pitching. He'll start with the elbow high and lower it little by little. Or, he'll have a long stride in the beginning and then will shorten it at the end. Or, have a flat back and then not as he goes along.

He may be making adjustments to deal with fatigue. That may mean that his current mechanics are not natural or efficient.

It would be helpful to see a video of him throwing.

[palo20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by losgadas
My feeling is that he tends to throw with the elbow too low: lower than the shoulder.


In my experience this is rarely a problem. Instead, the bigger problem is having the elbow too high; too far above the level of the shoudlers.



Chris, I think it is a problem when young kids throw with the elbow below the level of where the THROWING shoulder normally sits. I don't know too many big league pitchers that do this other than submarine pitchers. That could definitely be putting extra pressure on the elbow.

In reference to the Maddux breakdown, I think he is reverse-rotating his shoulders and he's doing so almost to the same degree that his hips are reverse-rotating.

[TG Coach]

I hate to say this, but will because I am certain others are thinking it. This is common with children whose parents feel they need to "Prepare" a 10 year old for their up-coming season. The pain may be an indication that he simply is playing too much ball, using the wrong techniques or both. Having pitched for three years I would first have to ask how many games is he playing or how much is he throwing? Is it rec travel or both? A pre-pubescent body is susceptible to damage no matter how well you prepare it.

I was shaking my head thinking the same thing. I just don't see the need to train/overtrain to create a stud pre-teen pitcher. My feelings are teach them good mechanics and let them pitch up to a certain number of pitches a week. Learn to recognize failing mechanics and yank them when their mechanics are failing.

Personally, while my son was a very good LL pitcher and also did well at 13U, I've limited his pitching training and live pitching until he hits puberty. He's almost 14. We're still waiting for puberty. It doesn't take years to create a successful pitcher. It can be done in part of a season when the kids get older.

My son hasn't been saved. But he hasn't been overworked either. A lot of the 10U pitching studs were not the studs at 13U. Some failure was due to lack of growing. Some was due to overuse from 9U to 12U.

I get concerned when I hear a kid has been pitching for three year by age nine (took 10yo season off is my understanding).

[Jake Patterson]

I was shaking my head thinking the same thing. I just don't see the need to train/overtrain to create a stud pre-teen pitcher.

After looking at what Los does with his boy I think he has a reasonable handle on what's good and what's not. Some parents call it a workout I used to call it playing catch.

[palo20]

Chris, do you have any comments to my last post about the elbow-shoulder relationship?

[losgadas]

Thanks everybody for continuing to post on this issue.

As I promised, my son went to the doctor today. The doctor recommended for him not to pitch until he is at least seen by an orthopedics doctor.

The doctor gave us a referral for an orthopedics doctor for next week. He deferred doing an analysis to the orthopedics doctor.

At the very least, after we see the orthopedics doctor, I will post the outcome.

Thanks,

[Jake Patterson]

Looking forward to the post.

[MSandman]

losgadas,

In case you haven't read this before, my son Kevin fractured the growth plate in his throwing elbow during an April scrimmage game last year when he as 11 (12 in July). I would second the advice to stop all throwing until you learn why it's hurting.

Like most 11YOs, he doesn't have perfect throwing mechanics, but certainly always been passable. He's one of the more athletic kids and there are certainly more kids on our team to devote our throwing mechanics time too. He pitched a couple complete games as a 10YO that, in hindsight were probably not a good idea, tho he complained of no pain then. We thought 80-90 pitches wasn't all that high for an occasional outing. Of course, that number IS high for any kid, and esp. a 10YO; but we've sure seen a lot higher counts in our league over they years. (not copping out, just creating the backdrop)

Anyway... he was first put in a removable cast by ortho for 3 weeks. She then said he could start light throwing at that point. My wife and I thought that was a bit aggressive, but we deferred to her expertise. Well, after missing the first 3 games, he came back for a game, but injured it again - on a swing, not a throw.

He was told to rest it for 3 more weeks. After that (4 more games missed), he came back and finished the rest of the season, playoffs and All-Stars. Obviously, no pitching, and only at 2B the rest. By the time All-Stars ended, we were just playing catch in the yard and he said it still hurt. So he DH'ed only during Fall Ball and we found a new ortho.

He recommended that Kevin shut down completely from all throwing (incl. football, gym class, etc.) for 3 months - which he did (and he became pretty adept at throwing lefty in gym class ;)). Then he did some light physical therapy for 3 weeks and was sent home told to continue the stretching, tubing and light dumbbells every day through the winter. He faithfully complies and hasn't missed a day yet. A few weeks ago, I added a light throwing drill (one knee in family room w/ a tape ball into a pillow on couch). Just 10-20 throws at light/medium speed, focusing on mechanics. He does this throwing most of the time.

We will see what this year brings for his arm strength. I'm hoping all the rest, rehab and practice - combined w/ light pitching load (60 pitches or so) - will help him bounce back full strength.

So please... don't monkey w/ the signs you're getting - both in his pain and during games when his elbow gets lower, etc. as the game goes on.

Good luck to him and you.

-Mike

[dw8man]

losgadas, I hope your son's arm heals up soon and doesn't have any major damage to it.

MSandman, sorry to hear about your son's arm. Please keep us updated on his progress if you can.

We have a young man that graduated from HS in 05 that should be playing in college, but because he tore his growth plate in his shoulder as a 14 yr old he can hardly throw a ball 60 ft anymore. He did play in HS and was asked to try to walk on at a college South GA but the pain got to be to much. He tore it at the end of summer after playing school ball, rec ball, all-stars and then went right into fall ball with little or no break.

My son got a bad case of "tennis elbow" or as the doctor put it "Little League Arm" the first weeks of middle school ball as a 6th grader (12 yr old). I, like an idiot, wanted him to make the team so badly (almost no 6th graders do), so I had him working out and throwing way to much before try outs (in my defense, he wanted to make the team just a bad, but I should have known better). Well, he made the team but had to sit out for 2 weeks and miss 4 games because he couldn't straighten his arm. It has appeared to heal but I worry that there might be a price to pay later.

[Jake Patterson]

We have a young man that graduated from HS in 05 that should be playing in college, but because he tore his growth plate in his shoulder as a 14 yr old he can hardly throw a ball 60 ft anymore....

My son got a bad case of "tennis elbow" or as the doctor put it "Little League Arm" the first weeks of middle school ball as a 6th grader (12 yr old). I, like an idiot, wanted him to make the team so badly (almost no 6th graders do), so I had him working out and throwing way to much before try outs (in my defense, he wanted to make the team just a bad, but I should have known better). Well, he made the team but had to sit out for 2 weeks and miss 4 games because he couldn't straighten his arm. It has appeared to heal but I worry that there might be a price to pay later.

Good post - the unfortunate part is the amount of times this story repeats itself in some form or shape and that those most unwilling to listen are those with youngsters.

There are so many sites that can help- ASMI among them. I encourage any parent with a child playing baseball to go there and read. I also encourage them to search Little League Elbow and Little League Shoulder.

[kylebee]

ASMI is a great resource. I've been lucky enough to hear a few seminars and have read the majority of the pitching-related work they have put out, and while I don't agree with 100% of the exercises they suggest, I think that it is extremely interesting information that is very applicable to all baseball players at any age.

[MSandman]

When he went to the new ortho, the guy did an MRI, which revealed a partial tear in the MCL. So even if an xray doesn't show damage, if your dr. doesn't suggest an MRI, you might want to bring it up.

I will try to remember to update this board (and a couple others I hang at) as the season progresses.

Good luck to all of us. :gt

[Jake Patterson]

Sandman, who did you end up seeing??

I met and listen to Dr. Michael Joyce at the WBC. Found him to be very interesting. My wife is in the medical field and she said he has a great reputaion in our area.
Jake

[MSandman]

Dr. Danny Humbyrd at West Bay Ortho.

[hawkiirock]

MS makes a key point here that xrays are useful but MRI studies are needed to see ligament damage

[Drill]

after he heals get him a one on one pitching leason to see what he is doing wrong.

[MSandman]

Drill,

Were you suggesting that to me or the original poster?

If me... that was one of the first things I did last year around mid-season - took him to a local training facility whose owner is a former Minor Leaguer (AA?). He played catch w/ him for awhile and said "his mechanics are fine".

So I'm guessing it was just cumulative overuse (tho I still suspect his mechanics may have been a bit at fault too).

[losgadas]

My son has an appointment on February 20th with the Pediatrics Orthopedics doctor.

Obviously, my son has taken most of his lessons from me. Last summer, he took some lessons with an ex-major leaguer.

When my son started pitching, most of the lessons we received recommended to show the ball to 2b or cf and have the fingers on top of the ball. Yesterday, I had him play catch showing the ball to 3b without fingers on top, and he said he felt less pain or no pain.

Currently, when I ask him in a scale of 1 to 10 how much it hurts, he says 1 or 2. But, that number can go up after team practice even if he doesn't pitch. If he doesn't pitch and just plays, ultimately my believe is that he would be fine.

Of course, only after he sees the doctor and has the MRI will we know for sure.

Thanks!

[rocko]

My opinion only for your son.

He is having pain so please shut him down for his sake. No throwing period.

If you totally shut him down he might actually be better by Feb 20. Just one pitch or throw can reaggravate him.

[ctandc]

The one thing I think people tend to overlook in the search / agreement on "perfect mechanics" is that each and every person is different.

I've coached kids who NATURALLY threw sidearm. That's what was comfortable for them...if you showed them the 'correct mechanics' of an overhand throw, they didn't feel comfortable doing it.

But I agree with other posters...if he's feeling any pain at all, shut him down completely. It could be something simple, that rest will cure. But if you keep him throwing AT ALL it will keep making it worse, never letting the arm truly heal.

What most people don't realize is that pitching is NOT a natural motion (overhand). And pitching causes tiny 'micro' tears in the shoulder muscle. And if the pitcher is allowed to rest, those tiny tears will heal, and it's nothing. If they are not allowed to heal, they grow larger, and become much more than micro tears.

[Chris O'Leary]

When my son started pitching, most of the lessons we received recommended to show the ball to 2b or cf and have the fingers on top of the ball. Yesterday, I had him play catch showing the ball to 3b without fingers on top, and he said he felt less pain or no pain.

This doesn't surprise me.

I don't understand where the whole "show the ball to 2B/CF" and "Fingers always on top of the ball" things come from. It's not what the best pitchers in the world do.

It's also quite dangerous advice, as this post shows.


Currently, when I ask him in a scale of 1 to 10 how much it hurts, he says 1 or 2. But, that number can go up after team practice even if he doesn't pitch. If he doesn't pitch and just plays, ultimately my believe is that he would be fine.

Residual pain is a bad sign. I would shut him down and give him time to heal.

[losgadas]

Well, as I promised, here is what the doctor said after doing the MRI:

It is a strained ligament. He said it should be nothing to worry about.
The doctor recommended for my son to take Aleve three times a day for three weeks. Also, he recommended physical therapy on the arm for three weeks to strenghthen the arm.

The doctor said he could play baseball for the next three weeks but no pitching. After the next three weeks, the doctor said, he could resume pitching; but, if the strain persists or returns, other recommendations/actions would follow.

Again, I think his problem probably stemmed from bad mechanics, i.e. showing the ball to 2b/cf and perhaps overuse.

After this experience, we'll continue to fix his mechanics and reduce his throwing to give him more time to heal.

[MSandman]

Glad to hear it wasn't nearly as serious as with my son. Good luck for a full recovery. Take your time tho; he's young.

[Jake Patterson]

Los,
Glad to hear he's going to be OK... I agree with taking it easy. I would recommend going to Mike Marshall's site and read his study on pre-pubescent throwing.
Jake

[TG Coach]

How much is he throwing? Well, in the off season, and when we are able to, we try to practice at least once a week for about 90 minutes. Of course, when the season was over we did not practice for about a month, maybe longer.

At his age he should take three months off from throwing. You're running the risk of damaging growth plates. Those plates have another three to five years of growing left. They need to be healthy.

[TG Coach]

Like most 11YOs, he doesn't have perfect throwing mechanics,

How can that be? Doesn't he have a pitching coach teaching him "perfect mechanics" (sarcasm directed not at you but gullible parents)?

My favorite is hearing a little kid has a perfect rotational swing. Even major leaguers have slumps with bad mechanics, but the little studs are perfect.

[MSandman]

I hear ya, TG. My son's had some success, yet I'm not naiive enough to think his hitting or throwing mechanics are anywhere NEAR perfect (I've seen too much video of it! ;)).

Yet, when you just see him hit live, people comment on how great his swing is?! :P

losgadas, I concur w/ the "take 3 months off" recommendation. If your son's not even in his last year of small field ball, what's the big rush? Rest him, let him comeback midway through the season, then take the fall off again. Maybe his arm will be nice and rested for next year?

I still have my fingers crossed that my son's out of the woods. We'll see in a couple weeks when he starts throwing indoors (just hitting right now, while we're in a small cage facility). And I wouldn't wish on anyone what he and my family went through watching him suffer last year.

[Monarch]

I would ask the ortho about a throwing program to help strengthen the arm.

[Drill]

I would ask the ortho about a throwing program to help strengthen the arm.

that sounds like another referral to me, unless he is a specialize in sports medicine

Which is good, but no matter what they will want a report from rehab first.

[rocko]

If you go to a good therapist he should be able to give you better info than the orthopod. the therapist can then comunicate back to the ortho if he thinks your son is not ready.

If it werre my son I would forget about this year and let it heal.

Plus your therapist may tell you to see a different doctor.

[hawkiirock]

sorry to bump this old thread but some great info for new parents and also would be nice for updates with these young men. Are they doing ok?


MS, is your boy alright now?