Down swing, level swing, or up swing?

[SluggerCF91]

I hear from so many different people different things, and different ways of how to swing. I'AM REALLY CONFUSED AND I NEED HELP. What is the BEST way to hit a baseball that is belt high down the middle. Would it be starting from the load, and swinging straight down on it trying to hit the bottom part of it (so it produces backspin, but the barrel stays in hitting zone for a really short time), getting on an even plane with the ball, and swinging parallell to the ground so even if you time the ball wrong you'll still make contact with it, or should you give a slight upswing, to completely match the path of the ball because it is said that the ball comes down from the pitchers hand into the strike zone. I'am just so confused, i work hard, and I am still having trouble. I need guidance I need help. Please someone help me out. Thank you

PS- I can understand what people say better when the give a visual representation. Maybe a slo-mo video, or an animated video, or w/e, thx

[Mark H]

Here's a bunch of video for you. Much of it you can watch in slo mo. Good choice to use video as your base line. Let it be your truth detector.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=no2imp8fd1.zebra_s

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

[Jake Patterson]

Take a look at this...

Compliments to Nyman

[jbooth]

I hear from so many different people different things, and different ways of how to swing. I'AM REALLY CONFUSED AND I NEED HELP. What is the BEST way to hit a baseball that is belt high down the middle. Would it be starting from the load, and swinging straight down on it trying to hit the bottom part of it (so it produces backspin, but the barrel stays in hitting zone for a really short time), getting on an even plane with the ball, and swinging parallell to the ground so even if you time the ball wrong you'll still make contact with it, or should you give a slight upswing, to completely match the path of the ball because it is said that the ball comes down from the pitchers hand into the strike zone. I'am just so confused, i work hard, and I am still having trouble. I need guidance I need help. Please someone help me out. Thank you

PS- I can understand what people say better when the give a visual representation. Maybe a slo-mo video, or an animated video, or w/e, thx

The bat path of the swing below, is pretty typical of how almost all MLB hitters would swing into this pitch location. The back shoulder drops, the front elbow raises and the head of the bat circles into the path/plane of the ball.

Note that he is NOT swinging down, he is NOT keeping the bathead above the hands, he is NOT swinging the bathead from above the head down to the ball. The bathead drops below the height of the ball, and comes up to the ball.

[SluggerCF91]

This is probably one of the better ones ive seen. It really slows it down so I can see what he is doing, the rest of the videos are too fast. I would say that pitch was about belt high, a little bit inside. So generally, what he did was he drop the bat into the plane of the ball and swung from there, still keeping it in that plane. What would a major league player do, on low pitch, would he drop his barrel to the plane of the ball also? Or would he just flick the bat at the ball and try to time it right?

[FindAGap12]

Here's another one for you...

http://media.putfile.com/sotaguchi

[SluggerCF91]

Here's another one for you...

http://media.putfile.com/sotaguchi
Thx, that was about a belt high pitch though, what would he have done on a pitch 1.5/2 feet off the ground?
PS-Those are strikes in my league.

[chesspirate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuh5v3VxDwM

[jbooth]

Thx, that was about a belt high pitch though, what would he have done on a pitch 1.5/2 feet off the ground?
PS-Those are strikes in my league.

They tilt the spine a little more and drop the back shoulder a little more and let the front elbow straighten a little.

Like this;

[SluggerCF91]

How about the path of the bat? Is it coming straight down from the load, or is it dropping to the plane of the ball first, and then moving towards the ball (like Jason Giambi)?

[KCFAN11]

It depends on if you want to swing for the fences or for a basehit. Swing upward for the fences. if u want to just get on base swing level but a downward swing will never work.

[chesspirate]

Is it coming straight down from the load, or is it dropping to the plane of the ball first, and then moving towards the ball
It's close to the following

Take a look at this...

Compliments to Nyman




Swing upward for the fences. if u want to just get on base swing level Can you provide a video of the differing swings you describe?

[jbooth]

How about the path of the bat? Is it coming straight down from the load, or is it dropping to the plane of the ball first, and then moving towards the ball (like Jason Giambi)?

The swing always STARTS the same way. If the pitch is low you simply tilt a little more, and adjust the bathead to the ball after you start to rotate.

[swingbuster]

Start swinging and then start bending at the waist. It is the same in baseball as golf. The swing is around the body in an orbit that is slightly oblong due to weight shift.

A rotational swing is neither up down or level. It is around the body

A linear swing can be down, level, or up. Linear would require rear leg extension and rear elbow extension to keep the bat going along a predetermined slope and staying on that slope for a long time.

The rotational swing intercepts the ball with a whip of the bat as the barrel unhinges during the ellipical orbit.

[SluggerCF91]

It depends on if you want to swing for the fences or for a basehit. Swing upward for the fences. if u want to just get on base swing level but a downward swing will never work.
Im looking to hit line drives in the gaps, so basehits are what im striving for, not homeruns.


The swing always STARTS the same way. If the pitch is low you simply tilt a little more, and adjust the bathead to the ball after you start to rotate.
Do you tilt your head along with your upper body? And does your knee drop to the ground more on a low pitch, than it would on a high pitch?


Start swinging and then start bending at the waist. It is the same in baseball as golf. The swing is around the body in an orbit that is slightly oblong due to weight shift.

A rotational swing is neither up down or level. It is around the body

A linear swing can be down, level, or up. Linear would require rear leg extension and rear elbow extension to keep the bat going along a predetermined slope and staying on that slope for a long time.

The rotational swing intercepts the ball with a whip of the bat as the barrel unhinges during the ellipical orbit.
I know baseball well, but most of this I cant understand. Too many big words :crazy

[Jake Patterson]

I know baseball well, but most of this I cant understand. Too many big words :crazy

Slugger, if you're going to play serious HS ball as your profile says, then you need to understand what Swing said. What part is difficult?

Break it down maybe we can help...

[chesspirate]

agreed.
Swingbuster and I don't agree on some things, but I can't take anything away from his "big words" post.

[SluggerCF91]

Slugger, if you're going to play serious HS ball as your profile says, then you need to understand what Swing said. What part is difficult?

Break it down maybe we can help...
Okay, Ill try it again.


Start swinging and then start bending at the waist. It is the same in baseball as golf. The swing is around the body in an orbit that is slightly oblong due to weight shift.

A rotational swing is neither up down or level. It is around the body

A linear swing can be down, level, or up. Linear would require rear leg extension and rear elbow extension to keep the bat going along a predetermined slope and staying on that slope for a long time.

The rotational swing intercepts the ball with a whip of the bat as the barrel unhinges during the ellipical orbit.
The underlined words/phrases are things I need help with. Everything else I pretty much understand.

[chesspirate]

you could think of 'linear' as the bat head moving in a straight line from the catcher to the pitcher, wich doesn't happen in a high level swing.
And you can think of the 'eliptical orbit' and unhinging like the bat traveling in a circle around the body of the batter, with an 'unhinging' taking place in the hitting zone, wich is closer to what elite hitters do.

If you need any more clearing up, i'd crack at it again, or maybee swingbuster could break down his own comments.

[swingbuster]

Take a ball on a string and swing it around your body. It is a circle. When it comes around take a stride and you elongated the circle

If you want the ball to go straight when it comes around you would
extend your rear elbow leading the rope in a straight line and if you pushed your rear leg forward at the same time you could keep the ball going forward and directed up/ down or level for a while

If you stayed centered and swing the ball around the stationary axis you could not direct it along a predetermined slope

[SluggerCF91]

So is it best that I try to have a more "linear" swing?(where the barrel stays on the plane of the ball for a long long time) or is it best that I try to swing more "rotational"? Keep in mind, that I do have a lot of power, but my contact rate could be better (I strike out often).

And also, U mentioned the stride, the rear elbow, and the back leg make that circle larger. Iam supposed to try to make the circle larger?

[Mark H]

Well if you don't run like a deer you better keep that power. How about we see a clip of a game swing and maybe we can give you some useful advice.

[SluggerCF91]

I run like a deer :) Im working on getting a clip, Ive tried it with the little disks I have but they wont load on my computer. I have to go buy different disks.

[jbooth]

So is it best that I try to have a more "linear" swing?(where the barrel stays on the plane of the ball for a long long time) or is it best that I try to swing more "rotational"? Keep in mind, that I do have a lot of power, but my contact rate could be better (I strike out often).

And also, U mentioned the stride, the rear elbow, and the back leg make that circle larger. Iam supposed to try to make the circle larger?

No, you do NOT want more linear, that will decrease your power.

Several things can make you swing-and-miss;

1. Your head moves during the swing
2. You're hands are moving on a downward path from your shoulders to the ball while you keep your back shoulder up. The proper form is to tilt the spine, drop the back shoulder and keep the hands going from armpit to armpit without dropping toward the ball.
or,
3. Your hands drop straight down from your back shoulder before you rotate into the ball.

[Hattrick]

I know I'm digressing from the discussion a bit, but looking at the clips above, I noticed that when Giambi makes contact, the back of his right (bottom?) hand is facing the pitcher rather than in the "palm down position" that I have always thought to be the desired hand position at contact. I can't really tell if Bonds does the same in the still photo. I seem to remember Swingbuster commenting on this some time ago, and I was wondering if there is a power advantage to torquing the bat in this manner just before contact, and if so, would it be a "teach" at some level?

[SluggerCF91]

No, you do NOT want more linear, that will decrease your power.

Several things can make you swing-and-miss;

1. Your head moves during the swing
2. You're hands are moving on a downward path from your shoulders to the ball while you keep your back shoulder up. The proper form is to tilt the spine, drop the back shoulder and keep the hands going from armpit to armpit without dropping toward the ball.
or,
3. Your hands drop straight down from your back shoulder before you rotate into the ball.
I see, what are some things I can do to become a more "rotational hitter", or have a rotational swing?

[Jake Patterson]

I see, what are some things I can do to become a more "rotational hitter", or have a rotational swing?

Slugger - there is a plethora of information on this board about that I would suggest you run a search

[R_MIOK]

Patterson has it right on the money. My coach i go to 3 times a week for pitching and hitting told it to me like this. When your in your stance bend at the hips a little bit so your almost leaning over the plate. Pretend the is a round table abound your body (acts as the plane). And drop your back shoulder like you see Barry Bonds, Ortiz and I personally think Manny does it best. And when u swing you want to have your bat swinging evenly with your shoulder angle. Its basicly a chop, even and an uppercut swing it one.

[hawkiirock]

that was a great description
No, you do NOT want more linear, that will decrease your power.

Several things can make you swing-and-miss;

1. Your head moves during the swing
2. You're hands are moving on a downward path from your shoulders to the ball while you keep your back shoulder up. The proper form is to tilt the spine, drop the back shoulder and keep the hands going from armpit to armpit without dropping toward the ball.
or,
3. Your hands drop straight down from your back shoulder before you rotate into the ball.

[SluggerCF91]

Ted Williams mentioned in his book about turning the hipes toward the catcher for a load, I think... I have had two seperate coaches tell me that I dont load enough when I swing, as if I was trying to swing with two strikes on me. How do you feel about turning your hips toward the catcher, (along with your hands and arms) and unloading from there? I personally think it gives me more power and helps me get on an even plane with the pitch easier (ill mention how later if anyone is lost with that). However, my hitting coach disagrees with that because doing that takes your head off the pitcher, and thats no good... What are your thoughts.?

[Mark H]

There's a difference between loading the hips and turning the chest back toward the catcher. Here are some references to check your thoughts and the thoughts of others against.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=lj930b18o1.zebra_s

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

[ironman]

I know I'm digressing from the discussion a bit, but looking at the clips above, I noticed that when Giambi makes contact, the back of his right (bottom?) hand is facing the pitcher rather than in the "palm down position" that I have always thought to be the desired hand position at contact. I can't really tell if Bonds does the same in the still photo. I seem to remember Swingbuster commenting on this some time ago, and I was wondering if there is a power advantage to torquing the bat in this manner just before contact, and if so, would it be a "teach" at some level?

You always want to end up with your right hand if youre a righthanded hitter facing up.

[swingbuster]

You do turn your hips minus 28 degrees " in a barrel" back to catcher but you CAN trigger you hands/ barrel tipping to pitcher or oppo gap to prevent the shoulders fron following the hips back as counter rotation at that point.

Hips DO counter rotate but shoulders do not in the initial load . You should resist the shoulders following the hips around.

You must find your perrsonal way of doing this..

Sadly, until shown few do........

[Mark H]

28?



.

[swingbuster]

the average as measured by film analysis by Yeager.

Give one an idea of the concept.

Most HS teams measure zero. Most girls I watch measure zero.

It is a problem

[LClifton]

As you look at these take care not to mistake the shoulders' movement (what they are doing in these clips) with them actively being rotated back toward the catcher as Mark H has mentioned.

Pretty big difference in what they are doing that gives their shoulders this appearance and what I perceive you are being told.

The clip of Inge shows the hip coil pretty well that swingbuster has mentioned.

[Jake Patterson]

I see it better with Inge than Beltran.

[MSandman]

Perhaps bcuz that Beltran clip was "clipped" :laugh after he'd already started?

Here's another one (original on left):

[SluggerCF91]

You do turn your hips minus 28 degrees " in a barrel" back to catcher but you CAN trigger you hands/ barrel tipping to pitcher or oppo gap to prevent the shoulders fron following the hips back as counter rotation at that point.

Hips DO counter rotate but shoulders do not in the initial load . You should resist the shoulders following the hips around.

You must find your perrsonal way of doing this..

Sadly, until shown few do........
Iam a righty. So my belly button, as well as my shoulders, should turn clockwise (towards the catcher) 28 degrees? And from there I swing? Is this correct?

[jbooth]

Iam a righty. So my belly button, as well as my shoulders, should turn clockwise (towards the catcher) 28 degrees? And from there I swing? Is this correct?

I wouldn't worry about degrees.

Just learn to keep your front shoulder in toward the plate a little bit, as you get ready, then load your hands to where you feel they are most powerful to move from, as you step and turn your hips. Don't move the shoulders and/or hands until the hips have started.

Keep it simple. Wind and unwind. Load the hands back as you stride, and then unload the Hips, the Handle, and the bat Head.

Like this;



In frames 2 and 3, you can see that only his hips have moved (the red line.)

In frames 4 and 5 he is bringing the handle around WITH his shoulder movement. The hands stay back at the shoulder.

In frame 6 the hips and handle have come around, and only now, will he let the bathead be thrown at the ball. Note that the blue and red line are paralell now. The shoulders caught up with the hips. The yellow line is the line from his front foot, to his back foot.

Don't drive yourself crazy with too many details. Keep the hands back, step and turn. Turn the hips, the handle and the bat head.

[swingbuster]

Jim ,

Draw a just line on the bat and the hips in frame 5. You will see the important x angle IMO

It will also show the hands do not go to the ball

[jbooth]

Jim ,

Draw a just line on the bat and the hips in frame 5. You will see the important x angle IMO

It will also show the hands do not go to the ball

You can also see that there is no early bathead movement, and there is no swiveling of the wrists. His wrist movement early on, was to take the bathead from leaning toward the plate, to a position behind his back (flattened it.) The bathead does not have force applied from the hands, to create batspeed until at or after, frame 6.

[GFK]

Iam a righty. So my belly button, as well as my shoulders, should turn clockwise (towards the catcher) 28 degrees? And from there I swing? Is this correct?

SluggerCF91, don't get hung up on the number. The motion that is being described is the result of the hitter loading into the back hip. You can turn back, but if you are not loading / unloading the back hip correctly, it will just add more inefficiency into your swing.

[swingbuster]

You will never understnd it until you understand what the x angle is about. If you cannot form and stretch the x angle and understand and define that you will stay lost IMHO.

It is foundational

[ironman]

I see it better with Inge than Beltran.

Perhaps this is because Inge moves his hips through first, while Beltran moves his hands through first waitint for his hands to move his hips through the zone.

[swingbuster]

Comapre anything somebody tells you about a swing to how it will affect you x factor.



1 ) HIPS The key to the new X-factor is the first move down from the top—the change in direction—and you should start it by rotating your hips (illustartion at left) toward the target just as your shoulders are completing the backswing turn.
Contrast this with the common fault of starting down with the upper body, which actually narrows the “X” between your shoulders and hips. Learn to separate your hips from your shoulders and you’ll hit longer drives right away.



http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/instruction/fullswing/article/0,17742,1148865-1,00.html