Hitting Basics

[Texas Aggie]

Hello to all I just found this website today.

I'm trying to prepare for upcoming Spring Little League Baseball in Austin, TX.

I own and have read several good baseball books. Ron Polk's, Bragg Stockton's and I've also read a lot of website articles on hitting such as at Online Hitting Academy, etc.

My question is ~ The most difficult part of teaching good and proper hitting technique for me is that it most coaches, teachers of the game, authors of books and dvd's have there own distinctive approach to hitting.

Can someone help me distill this down to the most important steps to teach and reinforce, no matter which book or teacher you are looking to for advice?

Off the top of my head and generally speaking I try and teach the importance of keeping eye on ball and head still. Stance and grip. Then the Load, the Stride, and the Swing.

Others talk about torque, pushing the bat or pulling the bat, opening the hips, rotating the hips, etc.

Having a limited amount of practice time and opportunity to have the kids attention, I've always found it most important to try and focus on the 2-3 most important components of the swing, the throw, the catch, etc. and then if time allows and depending on the abilities of the player teach additional concepts.

So for hitting what would you include?

Thanks for any help in advance.

[GFK]

... My question is ~ The most difficult part of teaching good and proper hitting technique for me is that it most coaches, teachers of the game, authors of books and dvd's have there own distinctive approach to hitting.

Can someone help me distill this down to the most important steps to teach and reinforce, no matter which book or teacher you are looking to for advice?

Off the top of my head and generally speaking I try and teach the importance of keeping eye on ball and head still. Stance and grip. Then the Load, the Stride, and the Swing.

Others talk about torque, pushing the bat or pulling the bat, opening the hips, rotating the hips, etc.

...

You more than likely opened an Aggie sized can of worms. Best advice that was ever given to me is to compare everything you hear, read, or see to slow motion video of MLB'ers.

With respect to hitting, find out what is meant by Posture, Connection, and Rotation then see if it passes the video test. If you think it does, then you have your starting point. Given your time constraints, I would start them out with a basic static-loaded no-stride swing. A lot of the "path forward" will depend on the individual hitter.

[Chris O'Leary]

Have you heard of Rotational Hitting? If not, then that is what you should be learning about.


With respect to hitting, find out what is meant by Posture, Connection, and Rotation then see if it passes the video test...Given your time constraints, I would start them out with a basic static-loaded no-stride swing.

This is good advice.

On my web site I discuss Albert Pujols' swing, which is pretty textbook from the perspective of rotational hitting...

- Breakdown Of Albert Pujols Swing (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/BreakingDownAlbertPujolsSwing.html)

[Jake Patterson]

Do a search on this site on "rotational hitting" You'll have plenty to read.

[Texas Aggie]

I am familiar with rotational hitting and this is what I try and teach the kids.

I guess what I am asking is how would you suggest breaking rotational hitting into a 5 or so steps so that the swing can be practiced in their component parts and then these parts reinforced with words and direction during practice.

Then these parts worked into the whole and so on.

[Maxx]

I thought I was teaching rotational hitting until I found this site :o

I tried to create a step-by-step checklist of things to teach with what I was learning here, but I never completed it. It is buried somewhere on this site. Anyway, these are the things that I've learned the past few months that I am going to focus on with my team this spring:

Bat perpendicular to the spine
Shoulder tilt
Rear elbow tuck
Eliminate stride
Rear foot--no spin or "squash the bug"
Front foot lock
Proper bat path
No weight forward
Move the middle--start the swing from the center (hips and pelvis)
Hands with the hips, elbows flexed
Front elbow maintains "box" till contact
Extension after contact
Hands above the barrel

[ironman]

I really dont want to explain my way, which will make the high-hands approach hitters became furious, but watch this clip. It is a motion-by-motion swing analyzed by Tony Gwynn on Barry Bonds' swing

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm

[Jake Patterson]

I really dont want to explain my way, which will make the high-hands approach hitters became furious, but watch this clip. It is a motion-by-motion swing analyzed by Tony Gwynn on Barry Bonds' swing

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm

Tough film to use as an example because the backdrop seems to pulsate. Take a look at the dugout fence. Hard to draw any reference from it. Great swing though!

[Maxx]

Jake if you keep clicking, it will take you thru frame by frame and give Gwynn's explanation, which i don't thing the PCR crew would agree with.....

[Texas Aggie]

Deezel,

Thanks that's a start. I'll start searching and going through these other threads mentioned.

Mark

[Mark H]

I agree with GFK.

Here's a link to some high level swing clips. Check anything you hear against these sort of clips. Let that be your truth detector.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=qbw9zyosp2.tiger_s

[jbooth]

Hello to all I just found this website today.

I'm trying to prepare for upcoming Spring Little League Baseball in Austin, TX.

I own and have read several good baseball books. Ron Polk's, Bragg Stockton's and I've also read a lot of website articles on hitting such as at Online Hitting Academy, etc.

My question is ~ The most difficult part of teaching good and proper hitting technique for me is that it most coaches, teachers of the game, authors of books and dvd's have there own distinctive approach to hitting.

Can someone help me distill this down to the most important steps to teach and reinforce, no matter which book or teacher you are looking to for advice?

Off the top of my head and generally speaking I try and teach the importance of keeping eye on ball and head still. Stance and grip. Then the Load, the Stride, and the Swing.

Others talk about torque, pushing the bat or pulling the bat, opening the hips, rotating the hips, etc.

Having a limited amount of practice time and opportunity to have the kids attention, I've always found it most important to try and focus on the 2-3 most important components of the swing, the throw, the catch, etc. and then if time allows and depending on the abilities of the player teach additional concepts.

So for hitting what would you include?

Thanks for any help in advance.

I often use a key phrase I call "H.H.H." Hips, Handle Head Which means, that the sequence of trying to hit the ball is;

1. turn the HIPS
2. then bring the HANDLE of the bat around
3. then unleash the HEAD of the bat at the ball

Of course, there are many details as to HOW to effectively turn the HIPS, and HOW to bring the HANDLE around, and HOW to unleash/throw the bat HEAD.

I now focus the student on simply learning to set the 90 degree angle at the hands, set the hands back near the back shoulder, start by turning the hips, and then keep the hands back and cocked, as the shoulders come around after the hips start the swing.

The main goal is to get to that position of, hips turned, hands back and cocked, and the bat parallel with the plate. If you get to that point correctly, you're on your way to a good hit.

You have to get to the position below; but how you stand and what preliminary movements you make are personal style:



Notice how you can clearly see the sequence in Pujols' swing below; Hips, Handle, Head



Also, click below to see various MLB hitters;

http://firstpickclub.com/backelbow.html

Also, click here

http://firstpickclub.com/Critical_swing_points.html

[Maxx]

Thanks for the phrase Jim, I'm going to add it to my list :)

[swingbuster]

Mike and Jake Epstein are going to Austin next week for a clinic. You might look them up.

[Mark H]

Search on here and on eteamz for "Epstein" to prepare.

[swingbuster]

Mark

Are you saying they cannot teach hitting to kids. ?

Well, I know you and I know the answer. You are pretty "one track" Mark.....

And you think what is posted on Eteamz by Posse is fair and accurate?

Guy lives in Austin...clinic in Austin....Go figure

Guys that approach hitting without explaining about core hip/ shoulder separation get lost quickly.

[Mark H]

How you got all that out of my post is amazing. I want him to have as much information as possible before he goes in so he can do a better job of evaluation and assimilation. You have a problem with that?

[Texas Aggie]

To follow up on some of the points made in this post, I have some questions.

GFK, How would you describe the ideal "Posture"? What does the term "Connection" mean to you?

Deezeldogg,
"Bat perpendicular to spine" @ the swing?
"Shoulder Tilt" ~ Meaning front shoulder lower than back shoulder or both shoulders in a tilt toward home plate?
"Rear Elbow tuck" ~ From the stance phase through the swing phase?
"No weight forward" ~ Meaning weight stays to back, or to middle?
"Hands with hips, elbows flexed" ~ Meaning hands move with the hips? What does "elbows flexed" mean?

Thanks,

Mark

[Maxx]

I'll kindly allow those with more knowledge to explain those phrases, as I am still learning to implement these elements myself.....

[EvanAparra]

I'm trying to prepare for upcoming Spring Little League Baseball in Austin, TX.


An aggie in Austin --- you're confusing me. :p

[bigredmachine#1]

Two words:

Charlie Lau...:clapping

[Professor]

See the ball, hit the ball.

[swingbuster]

Posture, Connection, and Rotation

Posture- Segmentation -Rotation PSR

[GFK]

... GFK, How would you describe the ideal "Posture"? What does the term "Connection" mean to you?...

Posture and connection are somewhat related. Take a look at the MLB hitting video available on this site and others. If you have the means to do so, step through it frame by frame. Notice, when viewed from the front, at contact, the bat will be nearly perpendicular to the spine. The hitter adjusts his posture for pitch height by torso tilt. On the side shots, notice that as the hitter starts to rotate, the hands and shoulders are moving as a unit for approximately the first 4 frames of rotation. The arms transmit rotational power to the bat and supply the connection to the rotating torso.

These are rather simplified definitions but should give you a place to start when looking at and evaluating video.

[Texas Aggie]

Because I'm coaching LL, I'm a bit hesitant in trying to take too much from studying MLB elite hitters' swings.

No doubt all of the elements of the "perfect swing" are there but which of those elements are applicable to 10 year olds trying to get a base hit off their classmate?

I'm sure there are nuances and ways to improve their hitting to a higher level that are present by studying MLB hitters but there may be 1 player perhaps 2 on a team of 12 or so that such a nuance would help.

I've only got so much time to instruct the kids and quite honestly the best players are getting instruction from a paid instructor or the dad's who know something about the game.

I might be able to improve these players' swings somewhat, but honestly the biggest opportunity for improvement on a LL team is with the lower level and middle of the road players.

I'm not trying to produce the next Barry Bonds, I want to give all of the kids the best opportunity to get a hit when they walk up to the plate. As a LL coach there is no greater satisfaction than getting a kid that regularly strikes out or grounds out weakly to the pitcher to not be scared of the pitches, not be up there praying for a walk, but gaining the satisfaction out of getting a base hit.

[Mark H]

When you have a dozen kids to work with in a limited time, there is a limit to what you can accomplish and trying to fix the swing of a kid who doesn't want his swing fixed just frustrates everyone. Focus on learning what a high level swing consists of and then figure out what you can accomplish on a case by case basis.

[Texas Aggie]

Generally speaking that is why I am here. I know a bit about rotational hitting and I'm trying to learn more.

[Jake Patterson]

Because I'm coaching LL, I'm a bit hesitant in trying to take too much from studying MLB elite hitters' swings.

No doubt all of the elements of the "perfect swing" are there but which of those elements are applicable to 10 year olds trying to get a base hit off their classmate?

I'm sure there are nuances and ways to improve their hitting to a higher level that are present by studying MLB hitters but there may be 1 player perhaps 2 on a team of 12 or so that such a nuance would help.

I've only got so much time to instruct the kids and quite honestly the best players are getting instruction from a paid instructor or the dad's who know something about the game.

I might be able to improve these players' swings somewhat, but honestly the biggest opportunity for improvement on a LL team is with the lower level and middle of the road players.

I'm not trying to produce the next Barry Bonds, I want to give all of the kids the best opportunity to get a hit when they walk up to the plate. As a LL coach there is no greater satisfaction than getting a kid that regularly strikes out or grounds out weakly to the pitcher to not be scared of the pitches, not be up there praying for a walk, but gaining the satisfaction out of getting a base hit.

Good Post!

[jbooth]

Because I'm coaching LL, I'm a bit hesitant in trying to take too much from studying MLB elite hitters' swings.

No doubt all of the elements of the "perfect swing" are there but which of those elements are applicable to 10 year olds trying to get a base hit off their classmate?

I'm sure there are nuances and ways to improve their hitting to a higher level that are present by studying MLB hitters but there may be 1 player perhaps 2 on a team of 12 or so that such a nuance would help.

I've only got so much time to instruct the kids and quite honestly the best players are getting instruction from a paid instructor or the dad's who know something about the game.

I might be able to improve these players' swings somewhat, but honestly the biggest opportunity for improvement on a LL team is with the lower level and middle of the road players.

I'm not trying to produce the next Barry Bonds, I want to give all of the kids the best opportunity to get a hit when they walk up to the plate. As a LL coach there is no greater satisfaction than getting a kid that regularly strikes out or grounds out weakly to the pitcher to not be scared of the pitches, not be up there praying for a walk, but gaining the satisfaction out of getting a base hit.

There is very little logic in your statements.


Because I'm coaching LL, I'm a bit hesitant in trying to take too much from studying MLB elite hitters' swings.

This makes no sense. MLB hitters have the correct swing, why would you not TRY to learn how they swing, and get your players to try the same movements?


No doubt all of the elements of the "perfect swing" are there but which of those elements are applicable to 10 year olds trying to get a base hit off their classmate?

All of the elements are applicable. The reason the average 10 year-old can't hit, is because he isn't applying even half of the elements of the MLB swing.


I'm sure there are nuances and ways to improve their hitting to a higher level that are present by studying MLB hitters but there may be 1 player perhaps 2 on a team of 12 or so that such a nuance would help.

This statement is simply not true. I think the problem lies in the fact that you haven't yet learned what the most important fundamental parts are, therefore, you don't know how to help the 10 year-old. You asked for basic help and several of us, gave it to you.

A good swing rotates the hips and shoulders, and keeps the hands near the shoulder as the shoulders rotate, and then arms guide the bathead to the ball. The batter's head must stay centered between the feet, from the start of rotation, up until contact with the ball.

If you don't keep the head centered you won't have much success in getting the bat on the ball, and if you don't rotate the hips and shoulders with the hands kept back at the shoulder, you won't hit the ball very hard. Those are critical fundamentals of the MLB swing. The difference between them and 10 year-olds is the consistency and the efficiency of execution.


I might be able to improve these players' swings somewhat, but honestly the biggest opportunity for improvement on a LL team is with the lower level and middle of the road players.

That is VERY true, and you need them to learn the basic fundamentals.


I'm not trying to produce the next Barry Bonds, I want to give all of the kids the best opportunity to get a hit when they walk up to the plate.

And to increase their chances to succeed, they need to learn to keep the head centered as they rotate the body, starting with the hips, and keep the hands back at the start of shoulder rotation.

The difficult part for youngsters, is to learn how to use the legs and torso to control the position of the head and execute the rotation.

[Jake Patterson]

Jim,
I liked his post because we have to acknowledge there is a natural transition to teaching/building a swing with what the pro's do as the ultimate goals.

Coaching young adults I get reminded of this when I am asked every once in a while to help a ten year old Little League team.

What's most important is teaching a new coach what it is he needs to do to teach a batter on the path to excellence. Showing him a MLB swing bring little to the process.

This would be like showing him a picture of a house and expecting him to build it without first showing him how to use a hammer and saw.

Make sense?

[Texas Aggie]

jbooth,

Thanks that's helpful information.

I understand how it would be ideal if I knew exactly what went into a MLB swing, but I'm not convinced that anyone on this site knows the answer to that. Not from what I've read anyway. I think it would take a lifetime of learning to know how to teach someone a major league swing (at least for me) and I haven't got the time.

I'm trying to get a handle on the fundamentals of hitting so that I can then teach it to kids tweaking it individually depending upon their abilities.

Once you get past the bickering there is some good information on this site, but there are also a lot of egos and a reluctance to share meaningful information as well.

However, posts like yours above are helpful as I'm trying to figure this all out.


Thanks, again.

[Texas Aggie]

Thanks Jake. I think you understand where I'm coming from. It's likely I'm in the wrong place asking these questions. This site seems to be focused on higher level, more elite players and how to coach them.

I can analyze a MLB swing and so can 5 other guys on this site and most likely each of us will come away with different information and none of us will necessarily be wrong in what we see.

How we process the information and try and explain it will determine how effective we are at teaching it.

It doesn't matter how well you or I understand if we can't turn around and teach it ~ if in fact that is the goal of the person studying it.

[virg]

T-Aggie,
Besides all the advanced details a 10 year-old doesn't know what a MLB-er does about;
WHERE? watch the release point (identify it beforehand),
WHEN? the pitch will come (soon after the pitcher strides),
HOW! be moving by the time it comes, and stride early.
A 10-year old (beginner) stands there wondering what's about to happen to him, doesn't stride til he finds it, swings after it's gone, and utterly destroys his own 'PCR' every time he swings.

Teach those things First!

[Mark H]

Jim is definitely a good one to listen to. Check Englishbey's site as well.

[jbooth]

Jim,
I liked his post because we have to acknowledge there is a natural transition to teaching/building a swing with what the pro's do as the ultimate goals.

Coaching young adults I get reminded of this when I am asked every once in a while to help a ten year old Little League team.

What's most important is teaching a new coach what it is he needs to do to teach a batter on the path to excellence. Showing him a MLB swing bring little to the process.

This would be like showing him a picture of a house and expecting him to build it without first showing him how to use a hammer and saw.

Make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. That's why I stated that I didn't think he understands the basics himself, enough to convey it. I previously posted photos and description of the basics. It wasn't my intent to put him down, I simply think he has a misconception of the relationship between the pro swing and a beginner's.

[Texas Aggie]

jbooth,

Re-reading your descriptions I had a couple of questions and points to clarify.

When you mention setting the 90 degree angle at the hands are you referring to 90 degrees at the hand / bat relationship only or also the bat w/ a 90 degree position in relation to the ground? I'm assuming this has nothing to do with the bat being perpendicular to the ground but wanted to clarify.

My understanding regarding rotation is that as front foot is planted on the ground, the hips / torso rotation is then initiated. The hips / torso rotation then proceeds to the point where the shoulders would naturally with the help of the pull of gravity join in the rotation. Then the shoulders continue until the arms join into the rotation and then the hands / knob of the bat finishing off the rotation to the ball. Therefore each of these movements are linked critically to each other with the correct order and linkage of one sequence to the next being of utmost importance. None of it works without all of it working. In addition the arms, hands, bat, rotate forward with the torso and then with the shoulder without these parts actually with their own muscles until they are drawn into the rotation and continue it toward the ball.

Finally, isn't the linkage, the ever so slight initiation of the next sequence of movements result in the torque necessary to provide power to the swing or does the motion sequenced prior have to be moving toward the back foot in order to create torque?

[Chris O'Leary]

My understanding regarding rotation is that as front foot is planted on the ground, the hips / torso rotation is then initiated.

More precisely, the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulders starts with the planting of the heel of the front foot.



The hips / torso rotation then proceeds to the point where the shoulders would naturally with the help of the pull of gravity join in the rotation. Then the shoulders continue until the arms join into the rotation and then the hands / knob of the bat finishing off the rotation to the ball. Therefore each of these movements are linked critically to each other with the correct order and linkage of one sequence to the next being of utmost importance. None of it works without all of it working. In addition the arms, hands, bat, rotate forward with the torso and then with the shoulder without these parts actually with their own muscles until they are drawn into the rotation and continue it toward the ball.

Actually, it's the rotation of the hips, and not gravity, that pulls the shoulders around. The rotation of the hips stretches the muscles of the torso which causes the torso to rotate and the shoulders to come around.

The same thing occurs with pitchers, but to a larger degree.



Finally, isn't the linkage, the ever so slight initiation of the next sequence of movements result in the torque necessary to provide power to the swing or does the motion sequenced prior have to be moving toward the back foot in order to create torque?

The torque is created by the rotation of one segment of the body ahead of the one next to it. The hips pull the torso (and lower legs) around. The torso then pulls the shoulders around.

Some people refer to this muscles activation pattern as Middle-Out.

What you don't want is a swing that is driven Top-Down (from the shoulders) or Bottom-Up (from the feet) because neither is as efficient as Middle-Out due to something called the Stretch Shortening Cycle.

[Mark H]

I see hip rotation starting before toe touch---rotating into foot plant.

[Chris O'Leary]

I see hip rotation starting before toe touch---rotating into foot plant.

I should have clarified this.

There is undoubtedly SOME hip rotation into foot plant.

However, I think that the majority of hip rotation, and thus the rotation of the shoulders, tends to occur after the back heel has dropped (and the front knee starts to stiffen).

That's why I think the dropping of the back heel tends to be the point of no return for the swing.

[jbooth]

jbooth,

Re-reading your descriptions I had a couple of questions and points to clarify.

When you mention setting the 90 degree angle at the hands are you referring to 90 degrees at the hand / bat relationship only or also the bat w/ a 90 degree position in relation to the ground? I'm assuming this has nothing to do with the bat being perpendicular to the ground but wanted to clarify.

My understanding regarding rotation is that as front foot is planted on the ground, the hips / torso rotation is then initiated. The hips / torso rotation then proceeds to the point where the shoulders would naturally with the help of the pull of gravity join in the rotation. Then the shoulders continue until the arms join into the rotation and then the hands / knob of the bat finishing off the rotation to the ball. Therefore each of these movements are linked critically to each other with the correct order and linkage of one sequence to the next being of utmost importance. None of it works without all of it working. In addition the arms, hands, bat, rotate forward with the torso and then with the shoulder without these parts actually with their own muscles until they are drawn into the rotation and continue it toward the ball.

Finally, isn't the linkage, the ever so slight initiation of the next sequence of movements result in the torque necessary to provide power to the swing or does the motion sequenced prior have to be moving toward the back foot in order to create torque?

The 90 degree angle is the angle formed between the front forearm and the bat.

The hips turn to a point where they pull the shoulders, the hands stay at the shoulder and at a 90 degree angle for a long time.

As shown below;



and here;

[Chris O'Leary]

The 90 degree angle is the angle formed between the front forearm and the bat.

Just for the record, this 90 degree angle forms naturally.

It occurs because the muscles of the hands, wrists, and forearm aren't strong enough to overcome the inertia of the bat. A 90 degree angle in the lagging position is the most efficient orientation.

It's similar to the external rotation of a pitcher's PAS upper arm, which also happens naturally.

IOW, it's the effect of a good swing, not its cause.

[Texas Aggie]

Thanks Chris and JBooth.

JBooth,

What is the book that you are showing and are referring to above?

It might be worth adding to my collection.

Mark

[Jake Patterson]

I see hip rotation starting before toe touch---rotating into foot plant.
Can you post a clip that shows this??

[jbooth]

Can you post a clip that shows this??

Look at Barry's front hip. You will see his chew-box appear on his butt as his hip turns, and that occurs before his front foot becomes weighted. Both heels are off the ground and his hips are turning;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds02.mpeg

Some hitters start earlier than others. Here's Kent;



Below, you can see his back hip move just before the front foot is fully weighted. The back knee kicks in and the hip moves as the front foot accepts weight, NOT after the front foot is fully weighted. You turn onto/into the front foot. You don't land on it, and then turn.



Here's Griffey turning INTO foot plant;

[Jake Patterson]

Thanks Jim, See it and agree,
Here's a better explanation of what several instructors here call seperation.



The action of the hands moving back while the front foot moves forward...
It seems to help with younger hitters

[chesspirate]

Jake, there is so much more going on in that clip than just 'seperation'

I'm not disagreeing that the hands in a general sense "seperate" (still not very specific) from the front foot during this move, BUT, the way the front foot moves forward is much more than just 'stepping forward' and the reason the hands move back is much more than just 'moving back'.

Again, i'm not disagreeing that some type of 'seperation' happens, but again i think using this term as a teaching cue most likely will not accomplish the goals hoped for.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, there is so much more going on in that clip than just 'seperation'
Agree


I'm not disagreeing that the hands in a general sense "seperate" (still not very specific) from the front foot during this move, BUT, the way the front foot moves forward is much more than just 'stepping forward' and the reason the hands move back is much more than just 'moving back'.

Again, i'm not disagreeing that some type of 'seperation' happens, but again i think using this term as a teaching cue most likely will not accomplish the goals hoped for.

With smaller kids I believe isolating the load and seperation as seperate items helps a child understand pre-swing action.

[chesspirate]

With smaller kids I believe isolating the load and seperation as seperate items helps a child understand pre-swing action.
I'd have to argue that what is taking place during "seperation" is actually the loading of the body. So they would be one action, not two seperate items.

To get this over with more quickly, i'd like to ask a question.
If the load and 'seperation' are two distinct parts of the swing, what is the purpose of 'seperation'?

[Jake Patterson]

I'd have to argue that what is taking place during "seperation" is actually the loading of the body. So they would be one action, not two seperate items.

To get this over with more quickly, i'd like to ask a question.
If the load and 'seperation' are two distinct parts of the swing, what is the purpose of 'seperation'?

I look at seperation as a continuation of load , but very different items. I look at load as the action of moving the body weight back. Seperation as the action of the hands continuing back as the front foot moves forward. We teach load by taking a bat and hanging it off the belly button using two fingers off the knob. A player is loaded when the bat moves from the center of the feet to the inside of the back foot.

make sense?

[Maxx]

I see the hip turn before the foot is planted. I thought it was discussed here before that rotation is started when the foot hits the ground. So, if I'm understanding correctly, hip rotation begins when the front foot touches the ground, NOT when the foot is actually planted? If that is the case, what is the significance, if any, of having a firm or locked front foot???

[GFK]

DDog, the rotation starts around toe touch and is the unloading of the back hip. Then as rotation brings the foot flat, the rotation transitions to the front hip. The firm front leg provides a solid anchor / foundation for rotation.

If I slaughtered this, someone please jump in.

[jbooth]

I see the hip turn before the foot is planted. I thought it was discussed here before that rotation is started when the foot hits the ground. So, if I'm understanding correctly, hip rotation begins when the front foot touches the ground, NOT when the foot is actually planted? If that is the case, what is the significance, if any, of having a firm or locked front foot???

The front leg firms up once the weight gets on it, and the knee straightens to keep the head centered and to finish the hip turn. The firm leg keeps the torso from shifting beyond center, over the front foot. The pressure of the shifting weight goes down to the front foot, but the upper body mass is held in place by the firming and straightening of the front leg.

The straightening of the front leg also pushes the front hip out and back to complete the hip turn.

Like these guys;

[chesspirate]

I look at seperation as a continuation of load , but very different items. I look at load as the action of moving the body weight back. Seperation as the action of the hands continuing back as the front foot moves forward. We teach load by taking a bat and hanging it off the belly button using two fingers off the knob. A player is loaded when the bat moves from the center of the feet to the inside of the back foot.

make sense?
I understand where you are coming from...

Moving the body weight back does nothing to 'load' the body though.

A player is loaded when the bat moves from the center of the feet to the inside of the back foot I can make this happen any number of ways without loading anything.

There may be a timing element involved, but the simple action of putting weight more on the rear leg does not necessarily involve loading.

Elite hitters may load and subsequently move slightly more weight to the backside (some not all) but just telling someone to shift the weight back won't necessarily create this loading pattern.

I would still like an answer to my question though,

what is the purpose of 'seperation'?at least, the kind of seperation you are describing?

[Maxx]

Thanks GFK and Jim, very helpful......

[GeorgiaHoo]

The man's trying to teach 10 year olds to hit. I assume he's looking for the very, very basic things to start with. I think everyone needs to keep in mind that he probably spends no more than 1-2 hours a week with 10-12 10 year olds. Not only is he trying to teach hitting, he has to work on fielding, pitching, etc. It might be something as simple as "hold the bat here, don't stride, and turn when you hit it." He is not going to be able to impart most of the ideas discussed here and if he could they wouldn't understand it.

Hell, I've been following these discussions for 6 months and still don't understand the half of it. What I think I have come to understand is that there's a lot of disagreement about the best ways to swing but all that is unimportant. Unless you have drills to teach the swing you are looking for all the esoteric talk about when the hips start to rotate is irrelevant to helping a 10 year old.

[virg]

The man's trying to teach 10 year olds to hit. I assume he's looking for the very, very basic things to start with. I think everyone needs to keep in mind that he probably spends no more than 1-2 hours a week with 10-12 10 year olds. Not only is he trying to teach hitting, he has to work on fielding, pitching, etc. It might be something as simple as "hold the bat here, don't stride, and turn when you hit it." He is not going to be able to impart most of the ideas discussed here and if he could they wouldn't understand it.

Hell, I've been following these discussions for 6 months and still don't understand the half of it. What I think I have come to understand is that there's a lot of disagreement about the best ways to swing but all that is unimportant. Unless you have drills to teach the swing you are looking for all the esoteric talk about when the hips start to rotate is irrelevant to helping a 10 year old.

Play it again GeorgiaHoo! I agree. This thread has gone way out of context.

[MSandman]

I look at seperation as a continuation of load , but very different items. I look at load as the action of moving the body weight back. Seperation as the action of the hands continuing back as the front foot moves forward. We teach load by taking a bat and hanging it off the belly button using two fingers off the knob. A player is loaded when the bat moves from the center of the feet to the inside of the back foot.

make sense?
Here's something I prepared to show my son's 12U AAU team tomorrow night. The text is the same on all 3 players. The point of showing 3 was to show a high-strider, a short-strider and a no-strider. And seeing we have no lefties on our team, I flipped Ortiz the other way. ;)


As I am the team's hitting coach, our manager wants me to spend a couple minutes w/ each player, showing them their swings next to MLB players. I had compiled side-by-sides for each kid, then I thought I'd like to also have the image above as a "blueprint". So I "standardized" (my own standards, as of now anyway ;)) the text a bit in what's above. But here's a sample of what I've prepared for each player (using my son):


Our manager already gave each player a 1-page printout of the key frames in their side-by-side clips w/ the pros. (I hadn't intended for him to pass them out tho at a recent meeting; instead, I had planned to go over the info w/ them, then give them the handout to take home.) I will also give each of them a 1-page printout of the 4 frames in the "blueprint" clip above, w/ a little more detail for each of the comments on the clip. Something they and their parents can read/practice at home.

I know there are other important parts to the swing (grip, hinge angle, etc.), but having just filmed the entire team a couple weeks ago, only 1 kid is even close to loading his lower and upper body correctly (and no, not my son; the manager's son). Almost without fail, the premature loading of the shoulders (at same time as hips) results in a prematurely slotting rear elbow. The kids arrive at stride toe touch w/ their elbow slotted already. So, IMO, that's the area that needs to be tackled most vigorously.

In that light, I've been practicing something (and had my son try for the first time yesterday):

1) Assume your stance and hold a bat against your upper chest, cross-armed. Point the bat toward the pitcher.

2) Load the hips:
a) While keeping the bat pointing toward the pitcher (allowing for slight movement), begin the stride by lifting the leg and coiling the hips a bit. The lead knee will likely turn in.
b) Keep the weight on the inside of the rear foot to facilitate completing the stride in a vertically-balanced position.
c) When you land on your stride toe, you will already have begun uncoiling the hips.
d) Do just this several times (w/ NO upper body loading). Back and forth until you can feel the hips loading against the resisting shoulders.

3) Load the shoulders:
a) Adding on to the hip loading above... just before the stride toe touches down, load the shoulders by slightly turning them (clockwise for a righty).
b) Repeat several times until comfortable that the shoulders are loading after the hips (while the hips are starting to uncoil).

The bat across the chest serves as a visual cue. Once comfortable w/ this, progress to holding the bat in the hands the normal way. During the shoulder load step above, pull the rear elbow back toward the dugout behind you (i.e. 3B for a righty), keeping the hands very close to the rear shoulder/armpit area.

Once/if we can improve in this area, I will then address other areas, like:
1) From this loaded launch position, take the rear shoulder and hands to the ball at the same time.
2) Maintain hinge angles - bat to forearm and forearm to upper arm both at ~90 degrees.
3) Improving posture - keeping shoulders over toes and butt protruded ("athletic/ready" position).
etc.

I may fall flat on my face w/ this tomorrow, but if we're to help these kids improve their long, slow swings so that they can compete w/ the presumably-better pitching they'll face (better than their rec leagues), they need to stop dropping the bat horizontal and slotting their rear elbow so soon.

Appreciate comments. Have you tried a loading drill like this? Have you used video and printed images w/ your young players? Do you have other methods for eliminating the long slow swings produced by early slotting elbows?

Thank you,
Sandman

P.S.
HTML version (http://members.cox.net/msanda/Loading%20Sequence.htm).

[bbjunkie]

The info that others have given you is good, but having recently tried to teach this stuff to kids under around 11 has to be very basic. The things discussed on this board are important for you to understand, but what you need to teach the kids are:

1. Hands at back shoulder, bat 90 degrees to trunk of body, back shoulder loaded.

2. No stride, keep weight balanced.

3. Bend forward from hips to adjust to ball. You want the bat to be 90 degrees to body through swing.

4. Rotate around spine keeping hands by shoulder, from hips up should turn as one piece until bat releases just before contact.

I found all this very difficult to teach young kids. When Englishbey came up here I asked what age kids he wanted to work with. He set a bottom limit of 11. I can see why after I saw him working with them and working with younger kids myself. I have very good success with 12 yo's, limited success with 11 yo's, and below that all you can hope for is they get the basic notions of rotation, bending at the hips and keeping the hands by the back shoulder with the bat held at 90 degrees. If that's done correctly, the bat almost takes care of itself. If they can get that, they'll be among the best hitters in the league. Good luck, its great to watch them develop.

[MSandman]

The info that others have given you is good, but having recently tried to teach this stuff to kids under around 11 has to be very basic. The things discussed on this board are important for you to understand, but what you need to teach the kids are:

1. Hands at back shoulder, bat 90 degrees to trunk of body, back shoulder loaded.
I have lots of players (on film) who keep their hands back at shoulder and the back shoulder loaded in their stance. IMO, this is a problem, not a solution because from there, they fail to load their hips; they just step, and unload their shoulders.


2. No stride, keep weight balanced.
No stride is not an absolute, by any means.


3. Bend forward from hips to adjust to ball. You want the bat to be 90 degrees to body through swing.
Agreed.


4. Rotate around spine keeping hands by shoulder, from hips up should turn as one piece until bat releases just before contact.
How do you start unloading from hips, if hips never got loaded? AAMOF, nowhere in #s 1-4 above do I see any mention of loading the lower body. Wouldn't this just equate to "spinning"?


I have very good success with 12 yo's, limited success with 11 yo's, and below that all you can hope for is they get the basic notions of rotation, bending at the hips and keeping the hands by the back shoulder with the bat held at 90 degrees. If that's done correctly, the bat almost takes care of itself. If they can get that, they'll be among the best hitters in the league.
Not to come across argumentative, but... how do you define "very good success"? Do you have film of them swinging as you've instructed? Because we all know that game success is often achieved w/ mechanics ranging anywhere from average to very poor.

[bbjunkie]

"I have lots of players (on film) who keep their hands back at shoulder and the back shoulder loaded in their stance. IMO, this is a problem, not a solution because from there, they fail to load their hips; they just step, and unload their shoulders."

Again, we're talking about kids under 10. Getting them to understand how to rotate the upper body is usually about as much as they can incorporate. The hips won't be fully loaded, but they will be enough that muscle memory will ingrain the idea. They can refine the swing as they get older.

"No stride is not an absolute, by any means."

I've found that teaching them with no stride simplifies the lesson. Once they grasp the concepts they can add stride later.

"how do you define "very good success"?"

I define it as having the best hitting team in the league. Our majors teams cover the age range from 9-12. So, the younger kids have to hit against 12 yo pitchers. Given the age disparity they do pretty darn well. I do have films that I use for teaching. Posting them here would only prompt tearing their swings apart compared to Barry Bonds. They work for me and the team, I don't need outside approval. The point I've tried to make here is that you have to keep is simple for most 9-10 yo's.

[MSandman]

Again, we're talking about kids under 10. Getting them to understand how to rotate the upper body is usually about as much as they can incorporate. The hips won't be fully loaded, but they will be enough that muscle memory will ingrain the idea. They can refine the swing as they get older.
You're probably right for that age group. Keeping it FUN is priority #1. All I'm saying is that THE most common swing flaw I see on youth fields is slotting the elbow early, creating a long swing around the body.


I've found that teaching them with no stride simplifies the lesson. Once they grasp the concepts they can add stride later.
I've done some no-stride work w/ my teams too. I agree it can be useful. I just thought your original post sounded more like "we always hit no-stride".


"how do you define "very good success"?"

I define it as having the best hitting team in the league. Our majors teams cover the age range from 9-12. So, the younger kids have to hit against 12 yo pitchers. Given the age disparity they do pretty darn well. I do have films that I use for teaching. Posting them here would only prompt tearing their swings apart compared to Barry Bonds. They work for me and the team, I don't need outside approval.
That was my point. You may have the best hitting team, but it may not be because they're doing everything you've taught. Heck, I've had the best hitting team the past 3 or 4 years (and we've won a couple championships), but I know for sure (video) that our kids still largely aren't swinging the way we try to teach them. For instance, their hands may very well not be back at their shoulder, their bats may not be 90 degress to their trunks, their back shoulders may not have loaded (very very few youth hitters do), they may have upright postures instead of bent forward from the hips, and their upper bodies may not turn as one piece units... but they still manage to hit well. We just don't have enough time in a Spring season to make a full-blown project out of each player (like we Dads do w/ our own kids).

My larger point w/ challenging this - and I don't mean to offend - is that there are as many methods of teaching hitting, w/ as many "key focus points" as there are coaches. But do ANY of us really know that our way of teaching is any better than others? I know I'm still searching. :)


The point I've tried to make here is that you have to keep is simple for most 9-10 yo's. Agreed. But then I'd question how much our instruction really helps at this level, and if it's more a case of getting a lot of reps in? I know several players whose Dads don't give them much instruction, but DO give them a TON of BP. They tend to be the better hitters in our league, yet when you see their swing on film, it'd be a tough sell for US to take much credit in their mechanics.

[Texas Aggie]

Just a progress report for all that have been kind enough to share their knowledge.

I'm currently searching and analyzing all of the great information on this site and trying to figure out as Sandman and bbjunkie and several others have done herein how to simplify, and teach these concepts to the kids.

I've got some time and so I am trying to learn as much as I can before the season starts.

Thanks again and as I develop the approach that I'm thinking of taking, I'll share with all for more feedback and comments.

[Erik]

Sandman,
this is great stuff. I like how you guys do this video creation. I need to learn how to do this. :lookitup :lookitup









EL,

[MSandman]

Thanks and you're welcome guys. But I have to admit... the diagnosis is often a LOT easier than the prescription! :( Or so it seems... then we try something, only to find that wasn't it either.

Even w/ my own son, I can't seem to get him to stop dipping his lead shoulder down and swaying back as his initial move - even before his stride foot leaves the ground! He's simply swaying back too much to get ready, putting too much weight on his rear foot, collapsing his front side... probably ingrained from his first swings back when he was 3 or 4. From there, as he continues loading, he just dips more and more and his rear elbow flies way up, etc..

At others' suggestions, I've tried to get him to keep the weight on the inside of your rear foot during the stride. But I think he might need to try to keep it there even before he lifts his foot - during his weight shift back. I've been looking more closely at this Tejada clip, as well as the ARod one, watching how both lift their foot in relation to their balance. I'll check back in a little while w/ some more info on what I see, but namely, that they both keep their foot under their knee while lifting. I believe that this keeps them from swaying back too much. More to come. :)



This image is from a stride drill he was doing, where his intent was not to actually swing. Later tonight, I will update it w/ a similar image from an actual swing, where the differences are magnified.

[dannyboy]

Sandman,

Good posts.

You said:
“The kids arrive at stride toe touch w/ their elbow slotted already.”


And asked:
“Do you have other methods for eliminating the long slow swings produced by early slotting elbows?”

My experience is not to approach this solely with a mechanical solution. Summation of force (in a ballistic action) is not slave to simply the order in which movement and force is initiated (for max effect/result), but also the time constraints imposed (the time within which the order of movement of different body parts must occur).

Sorta something like this (but not quite):



Consider Arod sees a 90 mph fastball. From pitch release to contact, the ball travels approx. 52 ft. in .42 seconds.
A 12 year old sees a 58 mph fastball (out of hand average), and from pitch release to contact the ball travels approx. 40 ft. in .5 seconds.
How can you side by side the two?
Arod is 7 frames from toe touch to contact.
Kevin is 5 frames.
Arod is 6 frames from change of direction of bat (elbow first lowering) to contact.
Kevin is 8 frames.
Arod is 5 frames from heel plant to contact.
Kevin is 3 frames.
Arod is facing a pitcher.
What was Kevin facing?
And if it was a machine, what was the distance from pitch release to where he normally makes contact? And what was the speed, if it was a machine pitching?

At what point in a swing toe touch occurs, is a function of two things: how long the stride foot is in the air, and when it lifts off.
Arod is 20 frames from lift off to toe touch. Kevin is 13.

The distance to the plate from the pitching rubber for Little League is 46 ft., for PONY it’s 54 ft., and for 15 year olds and above, it’s 60 ft. 6 inches.
Who determined these values?
Consider a 12 year old moving up to PONY the following year, with 14 year old’s throwing 72 mph (out of hand) fastball average.
Consider 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 year olds exposure to batting cages of varying lengths with machine pitching at varying speeds to simulate equivalent reaction times.

It most certainly takes a yeoman effort to make it through this speed – accuracy labyrinth.
What it takes, is an athlete with genetic ability and proper exposure.

[Texas Aggie]

Sandman, Have you considered getting rid of his stride? The load and the stride can lead to a lot of movement some unnecessary. Perhaps working without a stride for awhile might reduce some of the extra movement.

[ctandc]

Granted I can't throw out all the terminology, I'm also sure I don't understand the 'high level swing' anywhere near as much as many posters on this site. I do know that I've been pretty successful with my son and the other 9/10 yeard old's on the team I coach...I can describe some of the things I've done with my son and others.

One thing I see so often with the kids is undoing years of Dads and Coaches yelling "Back elbow up" (resembling a chicken wing) "Stay back" (leaning all their weight back on their back side)...etc etc. While the verbal cues themselves aren't really harmful, it's what the kids do when they hear this. If they don't associate the correct action with the verbal cue, they are going to do what they THINK it means.

Try this....

From the clip I see your son is a pretty big kid. First off have him widen his stance. At first you want it so wide that it feels uncomortable to him. To help you get the width of the stance, you can either try putting the bat he uses between his feet, or you can have him take his normal swing and see where his front foot ends up when he strides.

Have his feet pretty much even with each other. You want a basic 'athletic' position, eg. you don't want his knees locked out etc.

Now the following I'm sure will cause uproar...but I've used this time and time again with the kids and it works...

Have him stop worrying about where he's holding the bat. They hear so much about this and that, they sometimes get hung up on where the bat is before the swing, when in reality it only matters where the bat is on contact.

So...to ease his mind to concentrate on other things, have him hold the bat laying on his shoulder, or on the outside of his rear shoulder. Hands RELAXED.

Now concentrate on him being balanced between his feet....not too much weight on either side.

Try to get him to FEEL What it's like to trigger the swing with his HIPS turning everything else with it.

I like telling my guys to hold the bat like I said above. And concentrate on NOT MOVING THEIR HANDS AT ALL....just turning the hips and making the top half move with that turn. Try to find some verbal cues "exploding the hips" "swinging with your butt" etc. They will quickly notice, after you point it out, that their 'hands' will move, as will the bat, and their entire top half when they turn their hips fast / hard enough.

I use a tee drill where the kids 'hit' the ball without trying to move their hands. You have to adjust to tee to where they can actually hit it like this. Enforce "NO HANDS" make them use their bottom half for the swing. They quickly learn that they can't hit it worth a crap unless they reall turn their bottom half.

Another drill I've used with success is to have the kids standing in the wider stance. Bat behind their backs gripped with both hands...bat is behind their waist area. Line the tee up accordingly and have them 'hit' the ball off the tee with the bat. To do that they have to rotate their lower half, as their hands are occupied holding the bat and can't 'swing' it.

You need them to feel what it's like to 'wind up' using their top half against their lower half like a corkscrew.

I like having them 'load' by simply turning their ENTIRE top half as far back as they can while still being able to keep their eyes / head on the pitcher/ball.

Then tell them to start the swing with the bottom half. Sometimes simply getting behind them and turning their waist with your hands will get this across.

I know this has worked with my son, the team, and other kids I've been asked to help with.

If it's any encouragement at all, my son just turned 10. He's pretty big at 4ft 9, 98lbs. He hit his first true dinger (220+ dead center) in the Fall when he was still 9. 3 other kids on our team hit their first one's this past Fall as well. All 3 are smaller than my son and hit it just as hard.

And they aren't swinging toothpicks... in fact they ALL swing the same big barrel 30" 22oz bat.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: I posted this last Summer...this is my kid swinging in a cage. Right around 50mph pitches. 22oz 30" bat. SURE there are alot of things he could improve on...but he hits the ball ALOT and HARD, and when other kids notice that they want to do it too...

[GeorgiaHoo]

4. Rotate around spine keeping hands by shoulder, from hips up should turn as one piece until bat releases just before contact.


I think (emphasize think) that this is either incorrect or not explained so that I understand it. It appears to me that the hands do more in the swing than just follow the body. I'll freely admit that I am new to this and could be wrong.

Here's a link to a clip of Griffey and the hands do not stay at the shoulder. http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Griffey03.mpeg

I think that on pitches up in the zone you might see more of what you are explaining. Here's a pitch that is about waist high and Griffey's hands end up at his waist http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Griffey01.mpeg

If you hold the bat at or around your rear shoulder and do nothing but turn your body the bat never gets around to the ball. At some point you have to involve the hands/arms.

[jbooth]

I think (emphasize think) that this is either incorrect or not explained so that I understand it. It appears to me that the hands do more in the swing than just follow the body. I'll freely admit that I am new to this and could be wrong.

Here's a link to a clip of Griffey and the hands do not stay at the shoulder. http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Griffey03.mpeg

I think that on pitches up in the zone you might see more of what you are explaining. Here's a pitch that is about waist high and Griffey's hands end up at his waist http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Griffey01.mpeg

If you hold the bat at or around your rear shoulder and do nothing but turn your body the bat never gets around to the ball. At some point you have to involve the hands/arms.

This is a good example of why teaching is so difficult, particularly with written words. Of COURSE the hands come away from the shoulder at some point. We're talking about teaching beginners to not immediately push the hands/bat at the ball. You must not initially start the bat with hand/arm power. Even in the swings you posted, Griffey's hands are at his shoulder for the first few degrees of shoulder rotation. His hands then, of course, move to get the bat on line with the ball, but the forces that got the bat moving initially, came from hip turn and shoulder turn, while the bat and hands stayed back. The sequence of a MLB swing is Hips, Handle, and bat Head. And the handle starts moving with the hands at the shoulder and as part of the shoulder. THEN, after the handle gets moving, the arms guide the bat to the ball.

check this link to get a more detailed explanation; http://firstpickclub.com/Critical_swing_points.html

[GeorgiaHoo]

Thanks for the response. I'm on board with the fact that the arms start back near the shoulder and that you have to use your body, or "rotate," to generate power and have a good swing. The issue I've had is that I've seen some people say "you put your hands back, rotate, and that's it." Well, that's not it, or I'm missing something. As you mention, at some point, and I don't know how to define that point, the hands/arms have to start working in the swing. If you look at the first clip of Griffey it looks to me like his hands are sliding the bat down to the low pitch as his shoulders start to turn, as opposed to tilting to the pitch. Hard angle to see that from though.

That's a good link you provided.

[Encinitas]

ctanc just be careful about undoing "back elbow up" since so many great hitters do have their back elbow up. You are correct though that some kids tend to put it up in an awkward way.

For instance if one of my son's coaches told my son to have his back elbow down, we'd be reviewing some video together so he and I could come to terms with what he means. Just like there are ignorant but well-meaning dads who scream "get yer back elbow up", there are many well-meaning coaches who think back elbow up is bad advice and actually teach everyone to put the elbow down. Hitting with the elbow up or down is a style thing, but achieving great quickness is easier if it's loaded properly (scap controlling the lift, rather than the elbow)

[MSandman]

How can you side by side the two?
Ray,

Are you suggesting that, because there is different reaction time, that their mechanics should be visibly different too? I don't think I'd agree w/ that.

[MSandman]

Sandman, Have you considered getting rid of his stride? The load and the stride can lead to a lot of movement some unnecessary. Perhaps working without a stride for awhile might reduce some of the extra movement.

Tex,

We haven't done no-stride in awhile (year or 2?). He hates it (which doesn't make it bad/wrong) because he doesn't feel like he can get any "power" that way. And that's probably because he's generating his kind of power in the usual kid way - drop the elbow and sling the body around, getting as much momentum as possible from a wild stride. ;)

Probably not a bad idea to give it a try again. Before that tho, I may just have him widen his stance a bit (as someone ctandc suggested).

Thanks for the input.

[MSandman]

I do know that I've been pretty successful with my son and the other 9/10 yeard old's on the team I coach...
No offense, but I'll ask you the same thing I asked bbjunkie the other day: How do you define success? Just hitting well in games [NOW] doesn't mean we're training our kids to have swing mechanics that will still allow them to succeed vs. better pitching. FWIW, tho I post my son's swing a lot, looking for help, he too has been extremely successful w/ the swing he has. I post hoping to learn ways to improve his swing for better competition than he's faced so far. For the record, he is one of the top 3 hitters in his Little League this year, he was THE best hitter on his 11YO All-Star team last year, and the second best hitter on our reg. season team (to the 12YO league stud on our team). And our league is a very competitive 8-team Majors, having sent 2 of our last 3 12YO All-Stars to the State Final. Also, my son's 11YO All-Star team (two years ago, as he was a repeat 11 last year) won the State Championship. I say this not to brag (really), but to make the point that, there are LOTS of swings that get the job done very well at this age, but if you looked at them on video, they'd be very similar to my son's - and will need vast improvements to succeed vs. higher levels of pitching, IMHO.


I can describe some of the things I've done with my son and others.
I do appreciate the time you took to respond; thank you.


From the clip I see your son is a pretty big kid.
Not at all. He's 4'11" and 100 lbs. Not big for a 12YO at all.


First off have him widen his stance. At first you want it so wide that it feels uncomortable to him. To help you get the width of the stance, you can either try putting the bat he uses between his feet, or you can have him take his normal swing and see where his front foot ends up when he strides.
I like this idea and have been considering trying a wider stance [again, as we've tried it in the past] or even no-stride. He prefers to stride and I really don't want to suck every ounce of athleticism out of his routine. ;) So maybe the wider stance is a good start. Anything that might help get that stride foot down sooner. A couple weeks ago, I posted a dark clip of him in our garage on Teacherman's site, focusing at the time on keeping weight on the inside of the rear foot during the stride. In that clip, tho there were still disconnect issues, he didn't seem to dip his front shoulder nearly as much. Maybe the fact that the stride leg is in the air longer removes some time for him to make so many "damaging" moves?

As Jim Booth said in another thread: Many MLB hitters are using very short strides, so that the time between lower body movement and upper body movement is short. That's kinda what I'm thinking along the lines of. As you suggest, open his stance. But my reason (not sure if this was yours too?) is to "reduce the stride duration" to give him less time to overload his shoulders. Of course, that might not help the fact that he starts turning/dipping his front shoulder even before he starts his stride.


Try to get him to FEEL What it's like to trigger the swing with his HIPS turning everything else with it.
We never really committed long enough to the no-stride for him to get this feeling.


Another drill I've used with success is to have the kids standing in the wider stance. Bat behind their backs gripped with both hands...bat is behind their waist area. Line the tee up accordingly and have them 'hit' the ball off the tee with the bat. To do that they have to rotate their lower half, as their hands are occupied holding the bat and can't 'swing' it.
I used to do these w/ my team when they were younger too. But I seriously doubt I'd like what it would look like on film either. It is useful for kids who don't even get off their back foot and just use their arms to swing. I don't believe that to be the case w/ my son tho.


You need them to feel what it's like to 'wind up' using their top half against their lower half like a corkscrew.
Agreed. But only a "subtle" wind up. Too much "corkscrew" and their backs will be facing the pitcher.


I like having them 'load' by simply turning their ENTIRE top half as far back as they can while still being able to keep their eyes / head on the pitcher/ball.
Uh... no thanks on the excessive counter-rotation. :eek:


EDIT: I posted this last Summer...this is my kid swinging in a cage. Right around 50mph pitches. 22oz 30" bat. SURE there are alot of things he could improve on...but he hits the ball ALOT and HARD, and when other kids notice that they want to do it too...


No offense, but (a) it's a still pic, not a video and (b) judging from the level shoulders and extended arms, I'd venture a guess that your son's swing may be similar to my son's - highly effective vs. less-than-superb youth pitching, but mechanically in need of improvement.

Thanks again for the ideas.

[MSandman]

Here's an updated version of the pic I showed yesterday to show how his front shoulder dips before he even lifts his stride foot. This one was during an actual dry swing, not just a stride/load drill. With a tee swing, the front shoulder dip is even more exaggerated.

He seems to sway back too much as his initial move, then by the time his stride foot lands, he's barely gotten his upper body back to where it started instead of carrying his upper body out w/ his stride.

[MSandman]

I've updated a thread of my own from last fall for anyone who wouldn't mind continuing the discussion on how to help my son. Thanks.

Synching upper and lower body (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=808994#post808994)

[ctandc]

No offense, but I'll ask you the same thing I asked bbjunkie the other day: How do you define success? Just hitting well in games [NOW] doesn't mean we're training our kids to have swing mechanics that will still allow them to succeed vs. better pitching. FWIW, tho I post my son's swing a lot, looking for help, he too has been extremely successful w/ the swing he has. I post hoping to learn ways to improve his swing for better competition than he's faced so far. For the record, he is one of the top 3 hitters in his Little League this year, he was THE best hitter on his 11YO All-Star team last year, and the second best hitter on our reg. season team (to the 12YO league stud on our team). And our league is a very competitive 8-team Majors, having sent 2 of our last 3 12YO All-Stars to the State Final. Also, my son's 11YO All-Star team (two years ago, as he was a repeat 11 last year) won the State Championship. I say this not to brag (really), but to make the point that, there are LOTS of swings that get the job done very well at this age, but if you looked at them on video, they'd be very similar to my son's - and will need vast improvements to succeed vs. higher levels of pitching, IMHO...


Okay..the team in question is a USSSA/AAU sanctioned 'travel' team. I put travel in quotes because we actually only travelled far enough to stay overnight for one tourney last year, which was the 9U USSSA World Series. We made it to the last day, finished in the top 5. I could type out all types of stats...but as far as hitting we outscored our opponents more than 2 to 1...including 10U teams. Of the 11 kids on our team, 8 played rec ball as well. 5 of those in the same league. All 5 of those made the 10U All Star team as 9 year olds. All 5 of those were drafted up to play with the 10/11's during the regular season. We've kept the same group together as a 10U team.



I do appreciate the time you took to respond; thank you..

Not a problem at all. It's what these boards are for.




Not at all. He's 4'11" and 100 lbs. Not big for a 12YO at all...

My mistake I obviously missed where you quoted his age.



I like this idea and have been considering trying a wider stance [again, as we've tried it in the past] or even no-stride. He prefers to stride and I really don't want to suck every ounce of athleticism out of his routine. ;) So maybe the wider stance is a good start. Anything that might help get that stride foot down sooner. A couple weeks ago, I posted a dark clip of him in our garage on Teacherman's site, focusing at the time on keeping weight on the inside of the rear foot during the stride. In that clip, tho there were still disconnect issues, he didn't seem to dip his front shoulder nearly as much. Maybe the fact that the stride leg is in the air longer removes some time for him to make so many "damaging" moves?

As Jim Booth said in another thread: Many MLB hitters are using very short strides, so that the time between lower body movement and upper body movement is short. That's kinda what I'm thinking along the lines of. As you suggest, open his stance. But my reason (not sure if this was yours too?) is to "reduce the stride duration" to give him less time to overload his shoulders. Of course, that might not help the fact that he starts turning/dipping his front shoulder even before he starts his stride.


We never really committed long enough to the no-stride for him to get this feeling....

My son doesn't use a no stride approach. I to think that's 'style' more than anything if the bat is where it needs to be at contact. As for the wider stance I like it because it gives the hips ROOM to open up and rotate pulling the top into position...



I used to do these w/ my team when they were younger too. But I seriously doubt I'd like what it would look like on film either. It is useful for kids who don't even get off their back foot and just use their arms to swing. I don't believe that to be the case w/ my son tho.....

Point taken. It's just that I still see older kids that are hitting entirely with their upper half..and that drill lets them FEEL the difference..congrats if that's not the case with your son..



Agreed. But only a "subtle" wind up. Too much "corkscrew" and their backs will be facing the pitcher.


Uh... no thanks on the excessive counter-rotation. :eek: .....

Agreed. I obviously wasn't clear. I'm not implying excessive counter-rotation. Some is good...too much is bad, like many other things. The main thing I want the kids to get doing that is that the top half goes back AGAINST the lower half..just like when a pitcher coils / uncoils...



No offense, but (a) it's a still pic, not a video and (b) judging from the level shoulders and extended arms, I'd venture a guess that your son's swing may be similar to my son's - highly effective vs. less-than-superb youth pitching, but mechanically in need of improvement.

Thanks again for the ideas.

If you click on the pic it should be a direct link that will open up a video of my son's swing. Sure there are things to work on, but at barely 10 years old, he led his team in average, HR's, RBI's, and extra base hits. As for the pitching he faced some of the best at his age level there is. Not counting the games where he was asked to play up with 11u teams. Average pitchers at his 10U level this past Fall ranged from the high 40's to the low 60's...Good luck with your son

[MSandman]

I did click on the image, but no video plays?

I'm not here to have a male anatomy measuring contest... :) ... I'm still not convinced - no matter how succesful the hitting is in games - that it's because we've taught our players optimum mechanics. Let me correct that... we may have taught them that, but in 95% of the kids I see, they're nowhere near swinging what we tried to teach them - despite their game success.

I have filmed several of our league's All-Star teams over the past few years; I've seen very few kids w/ good mechanics, yet numerous "successful" teams.

I could leave my son alone and he will hit the cover off the ball this year. Even vs. some of the best pitching, kids can drag an aluminum bat around, making contact halfway down the bat and still drill a double in the gap. What I'm trying to do is help him learn to swing so that more of those are hit on the sweetspot.

Good luck to you and your son and his team this year.

P.S.
Please let me know if you get the video working.

[ctandc]

In no way was I trying to make this a pissing contest...You asked how I would measure 'success'....I gave you part of what I think.

The video works for me...try it this way

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/ctandc/?action=view&current=cody1.flv

Truth is, at the younger levels, say 9-12 years old, I don't think that performance or past history on the small field has much impact on what may or may not happen when they hit the big field, if they hit the big field.

I think knowledge OF the game can be taught at any age...but having more knowledge than the next guy doesn't usually overcome the physical abilities..

I played into college...I was shocked by how many of the stud players I played against growing up never played HS baseball. Some by choice, some not. Puberty is a weird deal...I'll never forget a kid in elem school / middle school we called the Monster..he was HUGE compared to everyone else. I ran into him (Crosstown HS) when I was a JR or SR....he was pretty much the same size he was then...he used to tower over me, and now I was a good 8-9" taller than he was...so the growth can be a big factor.

So personally, as long as my son and these boys WANT to play, and WANT to learn, I'll do what I can to help 'em.

And I'm sure ALOT of people will disagree...but there will come a point in these kids baseball 'career' that it comes down pretty much to pure physical ability. Technique can be taught / changed at any age if one has the inherent ability. Higher level pitching is just that....some guys will be able to hit it..and some won't. For many it won't matter how they swing the bat...unfortunately.

But between other sports, girls, puberty, jobs, money, cars etc etc.. I'll consider myself lucky if I get to watch my kid play HS ball like my Dad did with me....

[swingbuster]

THanks for the great clip example of how most LL players fail to form the proper hinge angle at launch ( casting and no barrel release ). The hands do NOT come cocked at foot plant and he is a top player...I can see that.

My point from the very beginning.

I am sure Sandman can draw obtuse hinge angle at foot plant.l

Great lower body action and very athletic though.

I can add 20-30 feet with one simple hand set change

An obtuse angle is one which is more than 90° but less than 180°


This is an obtuse angle but I say he is about 110-120 degrees

http://www.mathsisfun.com/obtuse.html

[Chris O'Leary]

The video works for me...try it this way

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/ctandc/?action=view&current=cody1.flv

Just to jump in here...

This kid's got near-perfect lower body action (near-perfect middle-out rotation thus the back foot off the ground at the point of contact) but his upper body isn't quite right. His torso also looks a little odd.

I'm not sure about all of this hinge angle stuff. What I see is a hint of bat drag. There is something funny in what his back elbow does.

It's hard to say for sure since I can't go frame by frame through the clip.

How old is he and how heavy of a bat is he using in the clip?

[bbjunkie]

Originally Posted by MSandman
No offense, but I'll ask you the same thing I asked bbjunkie the other day: How do you define success? Just hitting well in games [NOW] doesn't mean we're training our kids to have swing mechanics that will still allow them to succeed vs. better pitching. FWIW, tho I post my son's swing a lot, looking for help, he too has been extremely successful w/ the swing he has. I post hoping to learn ways to improve his swing for better competition than he's faced so far. For the record, he is one of the top 3 hitters in his Little League this year, he was THE best hitter on his 11YO All-Star team last year, and the second best hitter on our reg. season team (to the 12YO league stud on our team). And our league is a very competitive 8-team Majors, having sent 2 of our last 3 12YO All-Stars to the State Final. Also, my son's 11YO All-Star team (two years ago, as he was a repeat 11 last year) won the State Championship. I say this not to brag (really), but to make the point that, there are LOTS of swings that get the job done very well at this age, but if you looked at them on video, they'd be very similar to my son's - and will need vast improvements to succeed vs. higher levels of pitching, IMHO...

Well, lets turn the tables. Suppose you taught your kids a particular batting style and they stunk up the place at bat. Wouldn't you think that maybe your system might need some work? There's no question that reps make a difference, but so does batting style. I've seen pretty dramatic improvements in a few of our kids after teaching them according to Englishbey's method. Do any of them have perfect swings, not by a long shot, but perfecting a swing is a lifelong enterprise, not an overnight thing.

As far as what happens when they move up to the big field, I'll use my son as an example. After his last year in LL (during which he had the best batting average and OBP in the league. His teammate, a big powerful kid who batted clean up, had more HR's, rbi's and higher slugging %), he went directly onto a 13-15 BR team. He still had one of the three best BA's on the team. He didn't have a lot of power for the big field (5'3", less than 90#) but he was a dependable hitter. I have to conclude that the time I spent teaching him this method paid off. At some point you have to believe your eyes.

[Texas Aggie]

Guys there is no hijacking here, don't sweat it.

All good baseball discussion and I continue to learn from a lot of you.

Carry on!

[ctandc]

Just to jump in here...

This kid's got near-perfect lower body action (near-perfect middle-out rotation thus the back foot off the ground at the point of contact) but his upper body isn't quite right. His torso also looks a little odd.

I'm not sure about all of this hinge angle stuff. What I see is a hint of bat drag. There is something funny in what his back elbow does.

It's hard to say for sure since I can't go frame by frame through the clip.

How old is he and how heavy of a bat is he using in the clip?

This was last Summer. He was 9 then...just turned 10 last month. He's grown a good bit as well..he's up to 4ft 9 and 90 some odd lbs now.

The bat is a 30" 22oz bat.

I know his hands / bat placement aren't ideal. But the point is we just worked on lower body / hip rotation and letting him drop his hands a bit helped reinforce the lower body rotation FOR HIM.(every kid is different).

That swing in the cage pictured was well into his 3rd round of BP..he loves swinging the bat. I usually have to make him stop...lol

That swing has served him well from Spring 06 until this past Fall. A local HS coach, who's kid was playing against my son's team, approached me after knucklehead hit his first REAL HR in a game. It was a line shot that never got that high off the ground.

The coach told me that was the hardest hit ball he's ever seen at such a young age...that's the point...he makes ALOT of contact and it's with INTENT to knock the cover off the ball...aggressive.

We are now tweaking the bat hold / placement right now before Spring season starts. I'm trying to get the bat more in his fingers..and more at an angle as some have talked about. The big hurdle, for now, is over..he's EXTREMELY confident at the plate ( struck out less than 5 times in over 60 some odd games from Mar-Oct last year) and it shows.

he's expressed interest in hitting from the LH side as well, so we've worked on that some too....

[Chris O'Leary]

This was last Summer. He was 9 then...just turned 10 last month. He's grown a good bit as well..he's up to 4ft 9 and 90 some odd lbs now.

The bat is a 30" 22oz bat.

I know his hands / bat placement aren't ideal. But the point is we just worked on lower body / hip rotation and letting him drop his hands a bit helped reinforce the lower body rotation FOR HIM.(every kid is different).

That swing in the cage pictured was well into his 3rd round of BP..he loves swinging the bat. I usually have to make him stop...lol

That swing has served him well from Spring 06 until this past Fall. A local HS coach, who's kid was playing against my son's team, approached me after knucklehead hit his first REAL HR in a game. It was a line shot that never got that high off the ground.

The coach told me that was the hardest hit ball he's ever seen at such a young age...that's the point...he makes ALOT of contact and it's with INTENT to knock the cover off the ball...aggressive.

We are now tweaking the bat hold / placement right now before Spring season starts. I'm trying to get the bat more in his fingers..and more at an angle as some have talked about. The big hurdle, for now, is over..he's EXTREMELY confident at the plate ( struck out less than 5 times in over 60 some odd games from Mar-Oct last year) and it shows.

Like I said, he's got a REALLY nice swing. Well done!

I have seen a lot of prospects who don't have that level of lower body movement; extremely good HS and college guys who could learn from this video.

I think his arm/bat angle at setup may be related to the size of the bat (and to holding the bat in the palms a bit). He may not be able to handle it completely at this point. However, it doesn't seem to matter since the bat is pretty much dead on in the swing plane. He has a very quick swing.

One thing I noticed is that his balance is a little weak in the follow through since he holds onto the bat with both hands all the way around. He might be a little quicker out of the box if he let go of the bat with his top hand as he followed through ala Pujols.

[MSandman]

His swing, to me, looks very typical of most young hitters. Yes, he's obviously very athletic and aggressive - both great traits that influence his success. I'm sure the amount of reps you give him helps too.

I do like his "less is more" approach and wish I could get my son to buy into that instead of the exaggerated movements he has.

But again, my point in what hopefully didn't come across "too" challenging was that game success can't automatically be attributed to good mechanics or coaching.

My 2 cents.

This is the best I could grab from that video clip, seeing I had to do good ol' Windows Alt-PrtScrn screen captures. ;)

[Mark H]

Nice work Sandman.

I see casting bat drag (defined as the top hand elbow leading the hands with the hands casting out away from the body). I predict a seven, maybe seven and a half frame swing with high terminal bat speed hitting the crap out of pitchers up to a certain level. Then he won't. Now let's see a quality clip and count the frames to see if I'm full of it. :)

[Mark H]

Occurred to me I was guilty of defining a problem without offering a solution. You can get help on here. Jbooth is good and several others as well. You can get Steve's dvd's. You can study video of the best in the world, question those on here and on Steve's site and grind through it. Getting Dixon's book would be good as well. Priority one-learn about bat drag and why it's a perfectly rational solution to a kid but a solution that builds a roadblock for later.

[Mark H]

Video of some of the best in the world.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=y82sc1pc71.buffalo_s

[Jake Patterson]

Any comments on his lower body angles??

[Mark H]

Well he does develop momentum but I think he starts rotation by opening his front knee and then drags the bat around. As to the finishing position, no I don't really have a comment. I guess I could say he doesn't lunge.

[Chris O'Leary]

Any comments on his lower body angles??

Very good.

When I mentioned bat drag, this is what I meant...



Notice how his shoulders are turning but his hands have slid behind his back shoulder while his elbows are way out front. His hands need to turn more as a unit with his shoulders.

[hawkiirock]

do u think 22 ounces was 2 heavy for him at age 9?
Very good.

When I mentioned bat drag, this is what I meant...



Notice how his shoulders are turning but his hands have slid behind his back shoulder while his elbows are way out front. His hands need to turn more as a unit with his shoulders.

[jbooth]

In no way was I trying to make this a pissing contest...You asked how I would measure 'success'....I gave you part of what I think.

The video works for me...try it this way

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/ctandc/?action=view&current=cody1.flv

Truth is, at the younger levels, say 9-12 years old, I don't think that performance or past history on the small field has much impact on what may or may not happen when they hit the big field, if they hit the big field.

I think knowledge OF the game can be taught at any age...but having more knowledge than the next guy doesn't usually overcome the physical abilities..

I played into college...I was shocked by how many of the stud players I played against growing up never played HS baseball. Some by choice, some not. Puberty is a weird deal...I'll never forget a kid in elem school / middle school we called the Monster..he was HUGE compared to everyone else. I ran into him (Crosstown HS) when I was a JR or SR....he was pretty much the same size he was then...he used to tower over me, and now I was a good 8-9" taller than he was...so the growth can be a big factor.

So personally, as long as my son and these boys WANT to play, and WANT to learn, I'll do what I can to help 'em.

And I'm sure ALOT of people will disagree...but there will come a point in these kids baseball 'career' that it comes down pretty much to pure physical ability. Technique can be taught / changed at any age if one has the inherent ability. Higher level pitching is just that....some guys will be able to hit it..and some won't. For many it won't matter how they swing the bat...unfortunately.

But between other sports, girls, puberty, jobs, money, cars etc etc.. I'll consider myself lucky if I get to watch my kid play HS ball like my Dad did with me....

That is an EXCELLENT swing for a 9 year-old, and a pretty darn good swing for any age.

His lower body is fine, don't let anybody convince you to change it. He also keeps his hands back well, but he has a small flaw with how he does it.

He needs to get the hands back during the stride and set a 90 degree angle of forearm to bat, and the bathead should be more toward a position above his head. He loses the angle early during upper body rotation, (casting a little). He also drags the bat forward a bit with his hands and arms because he has slop in the front shoulder joint when he starts to rotate, because he didn't get the hands loaded back, he just sort of left them where he thinks back is.

What I mean is; his hips turn, then his shoulders turn (which is perfect), but the hands/handle don't move when the front shoulder moves. Slack occurs, and then he makes up the slack, by pulling the bat. Your arms and hands should be relaxed as you start to rotate, but the instant that the shoulders start to rotate, the muscles in the shoulder joints need to firm up, so that the handle and the hands move with the shoulder and don't get left behind. This works best if you get the slack out (load) before turning the shoulders.

It's OK for the hands to move back during the lower body rotation, but they must come forward with the shoulder, and not get left behind due to removing slack. His shoulder movement removes the slack in his front arm. The slack in the front arm needs to be removed during the stride. Another way to describe this is loading the hands during the stride.

[Mark H]

Normally I agree with most of what you say but the casting bat drag is obvious IMO. Reference still #4.

[jbooth]

Normally I agree with most of what you say but the casting bat drag is obvious IMO. Reference still #4.

Are you addressing me? If so, I thought I was clear that he is casting and dragging. I thought I stated that, and stated the cure. Tell me where I wasn't clear, so I can get better at explaining things.

[Mark H]

Perhaps I mistake you being encouraging with approval. Knowing your track record I should probably think twice before assuming.

[ctandc]

I really appreciate all the input guys. I'll go thru it all, and we'll work on one thing at a time. Don't want to overload him and get him thinking too much at the plate.....he's hitting the crap out of it as is...so any small improvements would just be cake...

I'll try to get some video of his swing this weekend. Remember the one I posted was from early Summer '06. He's grown a good bit since...I wonder what it has changed in his swing...he's 4'9" and stays around 95-98lbs....so we'll see.

As for the bat being too heavy...pretty much his choice.
I went thru ALOT of bats (Ebay is your best friend, I bought and sold bats on there and locally and never lost money) with him until he found the size / weigh / type he liked.

I would figure it's not to heavy, since he has no trouble getting around on 60mph+ kid pitch with it...I'm sure I could be wrong.


One thing that is interesting...I posted this same clip last year...and some of the same posters actually said slightly different things, then the thread turned into an argument over rotation vs this or that..

I guess what it comes down to is whatever works for each person.

If my kid is 13-14 and is still wanting to play higher level ball...I guess I'll have to go for my hitting degree.

[Chris O'Leary]

do u think 22 ounces was 2 heavy for him at age 9?

In general, 30/22 would be too long and heavy for a 9U. I still have some rec league 11Us who were overmatched by a 29/22.

However...

1. This kid is obviously an early maturer.
2. It works.

It might make sense to stay at this size for a while in the hope of reducing the bat drag issue rather than continuing to increase the length and/or weight.

[jbooth]

Perhaps I mistake you being encouraging with approval. Knowing your track record I should probably think twice before assuming.

I was approving of the swing in general and parts of it. But, he does have some flaws, and you and I agree on one of them (the casting and drag.) He's only 9. It IS a good swing for a 9 year old, don't you think?

[jbooth]

In general, 30/22 would be too long and heavy for a 9U. I still have some rec league 11Us who were overmatched by a 29/22.

However...

1. This kid is obviously an early maturer.
2. It works.

It might make sense to stay at this size for a while in the hope of reducing the bat drag issue rather than continuing to increase the length and/or weight.

A lousy swing requires a light bat. If the kid has a good, body generated, hands back, rotational swing, there is no reason to use a bat lighter than 20 or 21 ounces. Bat weight is a discussion for another thread. Just throwing a thought out. A light bat swung poorly will get knocked back by the energy of the ball. A heavy bat swung poorly, will still turn the ball around. If the heavy bat is making them late on the pitch, then that is a different story, but that's probably due to poor swing mechanics.

[ctandc]

A lousy swing requires a light bat. If the kid has a good, body generated, hands back, rotational swing, there is no reason to use a bat lighter than 20 or 21 ounces. Bat weight is a discussion for another thread. Just throwing a thought out. A light bat swung poorly will get knocked back by the energy of the ball. A heavy bat swung poorly, will still turn the ball around. If the heavy bat is making them late on the pitch, then that is a different story, but that's probably due to poor swing mechanics.

He's definitely not late on anything. One of his biggest 'issues' at the plate is trusting his quick swing and waiting on the ball to get to him. When he's getting anxious I pitch BP to him low and outside so he has to sit back...and also I tell him to hit everything to the right of centerfield.

I'm sure someone will scream foul, but the kid actually used a wood bat in BP the majority of the time, and it's 29" long and I weighed it at 24oz....and he likes the woods bat alot.

We rarely use batting cages (I personally don't like 'em but that's just me) so I pitch alot of BP to him and the entire team. One thing about the majority of our kids, they are not afraid of inside pitches..I've thrown 'em at them long enough that they know they can turn on the inside pitches. I love the look on other coach's faces when one of our guys absolutely cranks an inside FB down the 3b line...Our 3B coach isn't too thrilled (might take him a season or two to understand why I don't do it anymore...)

I'm going to do my best to get video this weekend and post it. I also hope to have him swing like he has been, and then I want to see what addressing his bat / hand position does to it....

[Mark H]

I was approving of the swing in general and parts of it. But, he does have some flaws, and you and I agree on one of them (the casting and drag.) He's only 9. It IS a good swing for a 9 year old, don't you think?

Given where he is now and given dad is doing his due diligence study I'd say this one has a bright future.

[hawkiirock]

can u clearly explain slotting the elbow early. I am just not picturing it. TIA[QUOTE=MSandman]You're probably right for that age group. Keeping it FUN is priority #1. All I'm saying is that THE most common swing flaw I see on youth fields is slotting the elbow early, creating a long swing around the body.

[tadlock11]

My understanding of premature slotting of the elbow is at swing initiation, the FIRST thing that happens is your elbow "slots" or somewhat tucks in. This will generally cause the bat to go flat before any good type of angular momentum is created and may be easier to spot for a hitting coach.

[jbooth]

can u clearly explain slotting the elbow early. I am just not picturing it. TIA[QUOTE=MSandman]You're probably right for that age group. Keeping it FUN is priority #1. All I'm saying is that THE most common swing flaw I see on youth fields is slotting the elbow early, creating a long swing around the body.

The elbow should tuck into the side as the shoulder drops and turns. You have to be careful not to turn the top palm up too soon, as you do it, and be careful not to let the bathead cast out or back, as you do it. The elbow comes into the side without changing the forearm to bat angle.

Like these examples;



His elbow tucks into his side, but the bathead stays up.



Same move. Elbow drops, but hand angle and bathead are affected very little.



His back elbow moves a LOT, and EARLY, without much coinciding movement of the bathead.

[hawkiirock]

thanks for the clarification. So MS' son is dropping his elbow and losing the bat/forearm angle rather than dropping the elbow without altering the 90 degree bat to forearm angle. Hoping i am getting this straight
[QUOTE=hawkiirock]can u clearly explain slotting the elbow early. I am just not picturing it. TIA

The elbow should tuck into the side as the shoulder drops and turns. You have to be careful not to turn the top palm up too soon, as you do it, and be careful not to let the bathead cast out or back, as you do it. The elbow comes into the side without changing the forearm to bat angle.

Like these examples;



His elbow tucks into his side, but the bathead stays up.



Same move. Elbow drops, but hand angle and bathead are affected very little.



His back elbow moves a LOT, and EARLY, without much coinciding movement of the bathead.

[MSandman]

Yes, but even worse, my son (and most youth hitters) drop their rear elbow during their stride (hence the "premature" term)... so that once their stride foot lands, the elbow's already either fully slotted or well on its way. Notice that my son hasn't even dropped his front heel yet.

[ShawnB]

First of all your question is very wide based. There aren't any 5 steps that can be broken down and then put back together.

It's all about hip action and rotation.

The swing itself can be broken down to two phases. The preparation to swing and the swing itself.

Your question or answer about not taking to much from a ML swing is incorrect.

Read, study clips, and ask direct questions.

[ctandc]

Well no clips. Had an indoor practice Friday evening...and we weren't able to get our cage hung up in the gym we use, so we ended up doing some soft toss. Hard to toss and film at the same time. I talked to my son about getting the bat up at more of an angle to the body and he tried it a good bit. Didn't seem to effect his lower body rotation at all either.

I wish I had a 'magic word' that would make my son realize how much time he has to pull the trigger when hitting. He's never had a kid throw it by him, even playing up an age level, and he's got a very quick swing. We worked for awhile doing soft toss, where he wouldn't swing until the ball had started falling for a '1' count, and he was still driving the ball to the middle.

I'll try to get some video this week.

[hawkiirock]

i see. Thank you
Yes, but even worse, my son (and most youth hitters) drop their rear elbow during their stride (hence the "premature" term)... so that once their stride foot lands, the elbow's already either fully slotted or well on its way. Notice that my son hasn't even dropped his front heel yet.

[TwinEngine]

His back elbow moves a LOT, and EARLY, without much coinciding movement of the bathead.

Not much?

It goes from pointing to the pitcher to lag.

[jbooth]

Not much?

It goes from pointing to the pitcher to lag.

Let me restate it; the distance from where his elbow starts, to where it is after the bat has only slightly moved, is a large distance.

The elbow moved a great distance while the bathead moved a very small distance.

These images show what I am talking about. The bathead remains relatively motionless, while the elbow drops down and near the body. This is true in almost all MLB swings, but Howard's movement is exceptionally great.

[TwinEngine]

Why'd you leave the next frame out this time?

[AcidLake]

To tell about my swing method, (I'm 16 yrs old, going to tryout for school team soon) I use Charley Lau method. Why? Because it's very easy to comprehend. But here are some adjustments that I made:

+my front arm is straight (or close being straight). Which gives me rotational edge of my swing.

+I don't really do weight shift thing. I just keep my balance 50-50

Results? I was never given opportunity to play in real games alot (started to play baseball 2 years ago), but I do kill the balls come out of automatic fastball machines (those come out fast;most of my kids in my age cannot hit them consistently) and I do hit the simulated pitching (my 'instructor' throws the balls) well.

Any comments? Thanks

[jbooth]

Why'd you leave the next frame out this time?

Because it has nothing to do with the point being made. It's quite simple and clear as can be in the photo. His elbow moves a lot while the bat moves only a little. How is the next frame relevant to THAT issue?

[swingbuster]

Look at those clips again and consider that the lateral tilt of the shoulders after the head over belt buckle shift lines that flat hands up. The lateral shoulder tilt is upstream of the elbow slotting and you cannot slot it of you do not get that right

While you can make some interesting and quit true statements about that rear elbow...the shoulder tilt at the beginning of the hip turn is the beginning of the GO sequence.

I don't talk that rear elbow stuff. Go to a more vertical barrel and aim at the inside seam and the rear elbow will fix itself after some cuts

[jbooth]

Look at those clips again and consider that the lateral tilt of the shoulders after the head over belt buckle shift lines that flat hands up. The lateral shoulder tilt is upstream of the elbow slotting and you cannot slot it of you do not get that right

While you can make some interesting and quit true statements about that rear elbow...the shoulder tilt at the beginning of the hip turn is the beginning of the GO sequence.

I don't talk that rear elbow stuff. Go to a more vertical barrel and aim at the inside seam and the rear elbow will fix itself after some cuts

You're missing the point. The point is; that the bathead is the last thing to have force applied to it, to attack the ball. Yeah, he's moving his legs, his hips, his shoulder, his elbow, just about everything BUT the bathead.

That's how you get super acceleration of the bathead, you leave it alone until everything else gets going, then you whip the handle and throw the head.
The early movement of the bathead for hitters who have the "tip and rip" style is primarily a movement into a position from which it will then arc toward the ball. It DOES help get a little more batspeed, but a serious application of force from the hands, designed to smack the ball doesn't occur early. The early movement of "tip and rip" gets the bathead to where the NON "tip and rip" style hitter would already have it, but with some momentum already in effect, again, which DOES help, and then the swing executes the same for both styles.

I agree that tipping adds power, but I totally disagree with how a certain person thinks it gets done. And, tipping isn't for everyone. SOME tipping occurs in all good hitters, but there are many HOF hitters who didn't use tipping to the extent of a Bonds or Williams.

[hawkiirock]

great thread here. Wondering about updates on these kids



also, for the 10 year old that has been crushing the ball i have a question. Has he faced many good curve ball and change up pitchers?

Our 11 Year old team faced a lot of 12U teams last season and came across a lot more "junk" pitching. My boy hardly ever struck out(he was 10) until he faced the curve balls. He struck out twice in one game on a slow curve ball lol


after that he didnt strike out much on them but wasnt hitting off speed pitches very hard
interested to see how your kid was doing against the off speed stuff since he has such an aggressive swing