any1 know of a good way to strengthen my arm [Archive]

Jake Patterson

01-18-2007, 07:16 PM

EdmondsFan#1

01-18-2007, 08:47 PM

Simply put,

Long toss.

GFK

01-19-2007, 07:50 AM

I am going to say a dirty word so cover your eyes!

Overload / Underload training with weighted balls. See what Wolforth, Nyman, and Coop DeRenne say regarding results and program structure.

Long Toss, if done properly, would help also.

Jake Patterson

01-19-2007, 07:55 AM

Chris O'Leary

01-19-2007, 08:15 AM

I recommend staying away from the weighted balls....

I agree.

Also, the key to velocity is throwing with your body and not your arm. That means getting your hips rotating ahead of your shoulders.

All you want to do with your arm is condition it so that it can handle the stress of throwing. Google "Throwers Ten" for a good arm conditioning program.

Encinitas

01-19-2007, 09:59 AM

I agree with the over/under weighted balls. Depending on age, I'd keep it really simple. My kid is starting to throw 40 balls (8 each) at 5-6-7-4-5 oz. Probably two times a week. A 7 Oz. baseball is not terribly dangerous. How much does a football weigh?

GFK

01-19-2007, 02:14 PM

Like I said, I was going to say a dirty word:D

... the key to velocity is throwing with your body and not your arm. ...

Learn to throw with your arm and then build the lower body and torso motions to support it. Learn what you can about arm action.

(The rest of you lurkers can jump in at any time. Rice, Stock, Nyman, Collins, anyone, anyone, ...)

Chris O'Leary

01-19-2007, 02:24 PM

Learn to throw with your arm and then build the lower body and torso motions to support it. Learn what you can about arm action.

I think that advice like focusing on arm action is misguided, dangerous, and completely unnecessary. The arm isn't where power is generated, it's the thing through which power is delivered.

I am getting extremely frustrated about this because I was asked to cross check some prospects last night and saw multiple clips of guys who broke their hands with their elbows (ala Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes). I would then reply back that I was nervous about these guys shoulders.

LITERALLY EVERY TIME I expressed concern about the health of a guy's shoulder, the guy I am working with would say "yeah this guy has had labrum problems" or "this guy just had surgery for a Burkett's lesion."

By the end of the night I was sick to my stomach because all of these shoulder problems are completely unncessary.

Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux don't break their hands with their elbows and they were doing just fine, last time I checked.

bronxkid

01-19-2007, 10:58 PM

Baseball gLove

01-19-2007, 11:05 PM

I think that advice like focusing on arm action is misguided, dangerous, and completely unnecessary. The arm isn't where power is generated, it's the thing through which power is delivered.

I am getting extremely frustrated about this because I was asked to cross check some prospects last night and saw multiple clips of guys who broke their hands with their elbows (ala Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes). I would then reply back that I was nervous about these guys shoulders.

LITERALLY EVERY TIME I expressed concern about the health of a guy's shoulder, the guy I am working with would say "yeah this guy has had labrum problems" or "this guy just had surgery for a Burkett's lesion."

By the end of the night I was sick to my stomach because all of these shoulder problems are completely unncessary.

Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux don't break their hands with their elbows and they were doing just fine, last time I checked.

Is this is scap(ula) loading? I never liked it. Mills used to lean that way about 4 years ago.

GFK

01-20-2007, 08:03 AM

Is this is scap(ula) loading? I never liked it. Mills used to lean that way about 4 years ago.

Who cares which direction Mills was leaning at one point in time? Look at the video of how the MLB'ers are doing it and let that be your truth detector.

GFK

01-20-2007, 08:28 AM

I think that advice like focusing on arm action is misguided, dangerous, and completely unnecessary. The arm isn't where power is generated, it's the thing through which power is delivered.

I am getting extremely frustrated about this ...

Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux don't break their hands with their elbows and they were doing just fine, last time I checked.

On the first point. Set on a bucket or chair and gun a hard throw. Then make a hard throw off the mound. Compare the velocities. How much does the arm contribute?

On the second point, I too get frustrated to hear you constantly trying to scare people with comments regarding potential injury. If we were discussing football, you would want to eliminate tackles below the hips and from the side to reduce knee injuries. Athletes push their bodies to the physical limits and sometimes beyond. If that bothers you, go take up cooking or something.

Last point. Are you so sure Ryan and Maddux don't break their hands with the elbows? (The Maddux clips come from Dmac and the Ryan clips are from Nyman.)

http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/NolanMadduxElbowBreak/maddux1.gif http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/NolanMadduxElbowBreak/maddux2.gif

http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/NolanMadduxElbowBreak/nolan10sequence1.gif http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/NolanMadduxElbowBreak/nr220b.gif http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/NolanMadduxElbowBreak/nr510.gif

RobV

01-20-2007, 03:52 PM

A good long toss program is definately a great first step. I would also recommend that you being an outfielder, make sure you are getting a good crow hop when you're working on your long toss. Footwork (mechanics) will definately add to your throws.

Start a good conditioning program. Weights (basic compound movements using good form, done explosively), polyometrics, sprints will also be a great help.

Arm care excersises (with banding) along with a solid throwing program will take you where you want to go.

Weighted balls can also be very helpfull after a solid conditioning foundation is realized.

Set goals (both short and long term) and stick with it.

Jake Patterson

01-20-2007, 04:04 PM

On the second point, I too get frustrated to hear you constantly trying to scare people with comments regarding potential injury.

I don't feel we can talk about this enough. With the proliferation of travel ball more and more kids are playing the game and arm injuries are among the top athletic injuries in children. What I see is more and more untrained parents coaching. If we do not have those who are willing to champion the cause of youth arm safety like ASMI and Chris and others then the problem would be epidemic.

Jake Patterson

01-20-2007, 04:12 PM

Says who? My son has been doing this for three years and no sign of shoulder problems at all.

How old is your son? If he's young (U12 or so) then you may simply be lucky. I don't want to make this a, "my son versus your son" thing but you need some significant history before you can assume what you are doing works. My son pitched post high school with no problems and I am certain I would have changed a bunch of things.

kylebee

01-20-2007, 05:26 PM

How old is your son? If he's young (U12 or so) then you may simply be lucky. I don't want to make this a, "my son versus your son" thing but you need some significant history before you can assume what you are doing works. My son pitched post high school with no problems and I am certain I would have changed a bunch of things.

I agree completely. Saying that you subject someone to what might be poor mechanics or injury-prone instructions and defend it by saying that he hasn't suffered injury or complication yet is not a valid argument. You're lacking sample size.

GFK

01-20-2007, 07:41 PM

I don't feel we can talk about this enough. With the proliferation of travel ball more and more kids are playing the game and arm injuries are among the top athletic injuries in children. What I see is more and more untrained parents coaching. If we do not have those who are willing to champion the cause of youth arm safety like ASMI and Chris and others then the problem would be epidemic.

I agree completely. Saying that you subject someone to what might be poor mechanics or injury-prone instructions and defend it by saying that he hasn't suffered injury or complication yet is not a valid argument. You're lacking sample size.

I have no problem with talking about arm injuries. What bothers me is people using scare tactics instead of reasoning. Implying that certain forms of arm action will more than likely lead to injury is a play on the fear emotion. The argument does not take into consideration conditioning programs, how many pitches per outing, how much rest between outings, ... .

kylebee your argument has merit but it does not go far enough. Sample size is important but you must isolate the variable of interest as much as possible or use an ANOVA form of statistical analysis to see what variables are truely significant.

In example, consider the following little story. A researcher looks at heart disease statistics and notices Eskimo's have a considerably lower rate of heart disease than New Yorkers. He also notices the Eskimo's eat considerably more fish than New Yorkers and reasons that the lower rate of heart disease is because of the Omega-3 in the fish oils. Next thing you know everyone is taking Omega-3 gelcaps to fend of heart disease.

The guy forgot about several variables.
Relative stress levels
Overall dietary habits
Smoking habits
Exercise habits
Genetics
And the list goes on

Any combination of these variables could far outweigh the impact of the Omega-3 fish oils. But then we always just want a pill to take to make us stronger, thinner, healthier, ...

Please excuse me if I have insulted any New Yorkers or Eskimoes!

Jake Patterson

01-20-2007, 08:04 PM

I have no problem with talking about arm injuries. What bothers me is people using scare tactics instead of reasoning. Implying that certain forms of arm action will more than likely lead to injury is a play on the fear emotion. The argument does not take into consideration conditioning programs, how many pitches per outing, how much rest between outings, ... .

I agree. A reasonable more educated approach to helping parents and youth coaches understand the dangers of arm damage is better.

I would guess most here would agree with you.

The problem comes when youth coaches ignore the research and or feel those who preach arm safety are some kind of panzy wanzies who won't let the kids air it out.

What I find interesting is that those who seem to disagree the most are usually those who are new to coaching or have children in the 9-12 y/o range and they feel their experiences in high school or college baseball somehow qualify them to coach children.

EdmondsFan#1

01-20-2007, 08:59 PM

Also, the key to velocity is throwing with your body and not your arm. That means getting your hips rotating ahead of your shoulders.

All you want to do with your arm is condition it so that it can handle the stress of throwing. Google "Throwers Ten" for a good arm conditioning program.

I concur. From an experiment with a group of 60 pitchers Tom House states that 80% of velocity comes from the seperation of hips and shoulders and only 20% comes from directional momentum (arm path, mound, etc.).

-----------------------------------

About the injury subject, it seems to me like the people who don't stress the prevention of injuries as much as what is going to make you throw harder are the people who have never had an injury before. I had tendinitis in my elbow before I started seeing a pitching instructor and that was definetly no fun. It was a huge nusciance even outside of pitching, it hurt even to scratch my back. And I can't imagine how a torn rotator cuff would feel like, seeing as tendinitis in the elbow is about as minor of a pitching injury it gets.
Anyway, turns out I had my elbows too far above my shoulders and I had them to far behind my back. My elbows were about up to my chin to ear to the point of where my shoulders were much too pinched. This even hurt velocity and control, so I reccomend not emulating the elbows up and behind to the Joel Zumaya extent.

And I disagree with learning to throw with your arm before your body. Have fun suffering the same fate as Kerry Wood.

Baseball gLove

01-20-2007, 10:06 PM

Who cares which direction Mills was leaning at one point in time? Look at the video of how the MLB'ers are doing it and let that be your truth detector.

This is not a smart @ss contest. For your information some MLB'rs do it others don't. I borrow what I like and discard what I don't.

Don't rob Mark H. of his trademark phrase; at the very least credit him with it.

Jake Patterson

01-20-2007, 10:09 PM

This is not a smart @ss contest. For your information some MLB'rs do it others don't. I borrow what I like and discard what I don't.

Don't rob Mark H. of his trademark phrase; at the very least credit him with it.
You're assuming Mark was the first to use it...

I think most who take the game seriously use video to test their knowledge

EdmondsFan#1

01-20-2007, 10:23 PM

This is not a smart @ss contest. For your information some MLB'rs do it others don't. I borrow what I like and discard what I don't.

Don't rob Mark H. of his trademark phrase; at the very least credit him with it.

agreed.

Some MLB players scapula load and some don't.

The names I hear the most from scapula loading advocates are Joel Zumaya, John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez, and Wagner. Basically, the elites that throw the hardest in the MLB.

But if anything will keep Smoltz from reaching the HoF it will be because he gets injured too much.

Pedro Martinez has shoulder problems, and the man is only in his early 30's.

Billy Wagner, i'm not sure about his injury history but I don't think he has had injuries but he is a closer, he has pitched way less innings.

And Zumaya hasn't been in the buisness long enough.

Another one would be Daisuki Matsuzaka, but he has had arm problems also.

All the pitchers 20+ years ago probably never did it, and I don't believe Nolan Ryan or Eric Gagne scap load.

I'm not saying that if a pitcher scapula loads they are automatically guranteed an injury because it has more to do with pitch count (how long your shoulders are under that stress), innings pitched, and if they strech/warm up well. But I believe it is another factor for disaster. (No, i didn't make that rhyme on purpose).

Encinitas

01-20-2007, 11:34 PM

EdmondsFan#1

01-20-2007, 11:42 PM

Anyone who says velocity is generated by the body is ignoring that the arm generates at least 50% of a pitchers' velocity. More than likely for a young person even more, as they have optimized things like hip/shoulder separation.

This is easily verified with a radar gun.

Well the arm has to be used to an extent no matter what a pitchers motion is like. So really probably only about 20-25% of velocity is generated from the specific details of arm action like forearm lag and flexed arms.

GFK

01-21-2007, 06:30 AM

... All the pitchers 20+ years ago probably never did it, and I don't believe Nolan Ryan or Eric Gagne scap load. ...

You say "all the pitchers 20+ years ago probably never did it". Is this based on your evaluation of video or are you guessing? To give you a starting point, take a look at some video of the following.

Gooden
Gibson
Ryan
Maddux
Koufax
Palmer
Seaver

On the Nolan Ryan comment, you may want to go look at the video I posted earlier in the thread. Ryan is loading his scaps. Have not reviewed Gagne but I feel confident in saying he has some form of scap load. Do you have some video of Gagne you can put up?

GFK

01-21-2007, 06:41 AM

This is not a smart @ss contest. For your information some MLB'rs do it others don't. I borrow what I like and discard what I don't.

Don't rob Mark H. of his trademark phrase; at the very least credit him with it.

Baseball Love, I am truely sorry I came across as a smart @ss. I have a weak spot when it comes to baseball "Guru's" leading people down dead-end roads and taking their money. I am not talking about Mills in particular. It goes all the way down to hitting and pitching instructors at the lowest levels. It really boils me when I offer to review video with them to compare what they teach to how the big boys are doing it and they bail. Of course they grab some suckers' money before they go.

If you know of a MLB pitcher that doesn't scap load, please let me know his name. I am being serious with this request. I could care less about winning an arguement but do care about learning all I can.

As far as Mark H goes, I credit him a lot. He is the one who got me thinking critically about this stuff. I missed crediting him on this one. Knowing Mark H and his intentions, he could care less about the credit. He is truely in it for the kids.

GFK

01-21-2007, 06:47 AM

hi, right now im a freshman and i can throw about 70 mph...its descent...but i wanted to know how i could strenghten my arm up so maybe reach the upper 70's or even 80's by the summer. Im not a pitcher, i just need a stronger arm in the outfield. What exercises/ throwing drills or anything could help me with this.

baseball2234, sorry for hijacking your thread. I guess we wandered off your question somewhat. May I suggest you put up some video of your throw. It is really hard to make any sort of constructive suggestions without video. If you can't get the video up, send me a PM. I owe you one for hijacking your thread. I will help you out with editing and posting a clip.

Encinitas

01-21-2007, 07:33 PM

Well the arm has to be used to an extent no matter what a pitchers motion is like. So really probably only about 20-25% of velocity is generated from the specific details of arm action like forearm lag and flexed arms.

If you have access to a gun, stand with the torso facing the target. Load the ball up past your ear, and fire the hell out of it. Don't twist the hips, or shoulders just throw it with the arm. Then take a full wind up and throw. My guess is you'll see that the arm provides a lot more to velocity than you think.

Certainly it will be higher than 20-25% and may even be over 50%.

Jake Patterson

01-21-2007, 07:43 PM

If you have access to a gun, stand with the torso facing the target. Load the ball up past your ear, and fire the hell out of it. Don't twist the hips, or shoulders just throw it with the arm. Then take a full wind up and throw. My guess is you'll see that the arm provides a lot more to velocity than you think.

Certainly it will be higher than 20-25% and may even be over 50%.

It may be safer to use distance in lieu of speed. Sounds like a recipe for an injury... I would rather make this suposition based on some data developed by a reputable organization like ASMI...

Mark H

01-21-2007, 08:34 PM

This is not a smart @ss contest. For your information some MLB'rs do it others don't. I borrow what I like and discard what I don't.

Don't rob Mark H. of his trademark phrase; at the very least credit him with it.

The more I hear it used the better I like it and I don't need the credit, but thanks for thinking of me.

To answer the original question, I agree about the long toss and I agree with Wolforth's program. On the long toss, google "Jaeger long toss".

Here are some throwing clips.

http://imageevent.com/siggy

ElHalo

01-21-2007, 08:49 PM

....................................

EdmondsFan#1

01-21-2007, 08:51 PM

Have you tried steroids?

I know it's a joke (I hope) but steroids hurt more then they help.

Mark H

01-21-2007, 09:00 PM

In the long run, yes. In the short run, no. Problem is that dying young and impotent part.

Baseball gLove

01-21-2007, 09:49 PM

Baseball Love, I am truely sorry I came across as a smart @ss. I have a weak spot when it comes to baseball "Guru's" leading people down dead-end roads and taking their money. I am not talking about Mills in particular. It goes all the way down to hitting and pitching instructors at the lowest levels. It really boils me when I offer to review video with them to compare what they teach to how the big boys are doing it and they bail. Of course they grab some suckers' money before they go.

If you know of a MLB pitcher that doesn't scap load, please let me know his name. I am being serious with this request. I could care less about winning an arguement but do care about learning all I can.

As far as Mark H goes, I credit him a lot. He is the one who got me thinking critically about this stuff. I missed crediting him on this one. Knowing Mark H and his intentions, he could care less about the credit. He is truely in it for the kids.

Apology accepted. A small amount of natural loading of the scapula does occur. Mills used to endorse conscious intentional loading of the scapula by pinching one's shoulder blades together. I understand he no longer endorses that view. I tried it myself in 2002 - 2003 during one of my 250-300 pitch BP sessions, I didn't like it, so I did not pass that on to my son. I understand that Mills does not believe in long toss either. My son is armed by Jaeger's Long Toss Program.

ElHalo

01-21-2007, 09:52 PM

I know it's a joke (I hope) but steroids hurt more then they help.

Obviously. Of course it's a joke; baseball's not worth risking your health over.

Ohioteamz

01-22-2007, 01:49 AM

It may be safer to use distance in lieu of speed. Sounds like a recipe for an injury... I would rather make this suposition based on some data developed by a reputable organization like ASMI...

And I'd rather follow Nyman's Backwards Chaining drills. I don't think anyone said you shouldn't warm up???

In any case, I am don't bother that much with the AMSI. Since the pitch count revolution occured throughout the farm systems, there hasn't been a big reduction in injuries to MLB pitchers. That doesn't mean I support overuse, I just think common sense rules the day.

Let me ask this. If a guy stands in front of a net, using arm action only, and throws the ball 40 MPH, and then does a full wind-up, or crow hop (something to get the hip/shoulder separation going) and then throws the ball 80 MPH, can we then say the arm provides 50% of the velocity? Actually this is a rhetorical question the answer is yes. In my case for an old out of shape guy, I was at 38 MPH with arm only, and only managed 66 using a full windup. This means my arm is actually providing greater than 50% of the velocity, and also shows that my body is not optimizing or else I'd hit 76. Also a good chance I could get injured from over-reliance on the arm. This feedback tells me my body can do a much better job than what it is currently doing, and there are probably some inefficiencies, or lack of segmentation.

In terms of helping the original poster, Mark H was correct, Nyman, Wolforth,and Jaeger are all good resources.

Jake Patterson

01-22-2007, 07:43 AM

That doesn't mean I support overuse, I just think common sense rules the day.

I agree with you post. The problem with the above however, is that common sense is an varying concept with many youth coaches. We (my school team) provide a great deal of throwing/pitching training for our youth coaches only to see coaches who feels they know better, or dads willing to "take a chance" their son. In spite of managing pitch counts closely throughout our school season and sending info home on a weekly basis about arm care we had a summer league coach, one of my player's father, throw his son 140+ pitches in one game. I couldn't watch. End result was a trip to the Doc.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 08:44 AM

On the first point. Set on a bucket or chair and gun a hard throw. Then make a hard throw off the mound. Compare the velocities. How much does the arm contribute?

You're making a very common mistake.

Throwing while sitting on a bucket is a completely different throwing motion. In this case, the tricep extends the elbow. In a high-level throw, momentum extends the elbow and the tricep is flaccid.

On the second point, I too get frustrated to hear you constantly trying to scare people with comments regarding potential injury. If we were discussing football, you would want to eliminate tackles below the hips and from the side to reduce knee injuries. Athletes push their bodies to the physical limits and sometimes beyond. If that bothers you, go take up cooking or something.

And I get frustrated when guys like you act like injuries to pitchers are necessary. The problem is that many people are being taught mechanics that are not necessary to producing high velocities and that significantly (and unnecessarily) increase their risk of injury.

Last point. Are you so sure Ryan and Maddux don't break their hands with the elbows? (The Maddux clips come from Dmac and the Ryan clips are from Nyman.)

They certainly don't break their hands like Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes do. Instead, their elbows always stay below the level of their shoulders.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 08:45 AM

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 08:50 AM

Billy Wagner, i'm not sure about his injury history but I don't think he has had injuries but he is a closer, he has pitched way less innings.

Billy Wagner has had a series of shoulder problems despite being a closer.

I predict that Joel Zumaya will have comparable problems, especially if he is moved into the starting rotation.

I'm not saying that if a pitcher scapula loads they are automatically guranteed an injury because it has more to do with pitch count (how long your shoulders are under that stress), innings pitched, and if they strech/warm up well. But I believe it is another factor for disaster. (No, i didn't make that rhyme on purpose).

I am not against all forms of scapular loading.

Instead, I think there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The right way to do it is the way Maddux, Ryan, and others do it; keeping the elbows below the level of the shoulders.

The wrong way to do it is the way Wagner, Prior, and Smoltz do it which is taking the elbows above and behind the level of the shoulders.

RobV

01-22-2007, 12:54 PM

Instead, I think there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The right way to do it is the way Maddux, Ryan, and others do it; keeping the elbows below the level of the shoulders.

Ryans elbows go behind his shoulders.

jojab

01-22-2007, 01:19 PM

The wrong way to do it is the way Wagner, Prior, and Smoltz do it which is taking the elbows above and behind the level of the shoulders.

Do the people you are talking to know you don't like the way Smoltz and Wagner pitch?

I'm sure they would want to you to advise them to pass on guys like that, wouldn't they?

Smoltz is an 18 year veteran with over 3,000 innings pitched. Wagner is an 11 year veteran with 40 saves last season. Geez, why the heck would you draft guys like that?

Zumaya? Yeah, why would you want a guy like him? Apparently you missed the apperance he had against the Yankees in the playoffs? Joel needs to dial it down a bit and let Arod put the ball in play.

Sometimes your logic escapes me. :noidea

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 01:24 PM

Ryans elbows go behind his shoulders.

Yes, but they don't go ABOVE and behind his shoulders.

This is a critical difference.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 01:29 PM

Do the people you are talking to know you don't like the way Smoltz and Wagner pitch?

Yes.

I'm sure they would want to you to advise them to pass on guys like that, wouldn't they?

I just had this conversation with my contact. I expressed that I was concerned that they might miss out on a Smoltz or a Wagner.

My contact told me he wasn't worried about that. He wants to get a sense of the risk that a guy presents.

The agreement that we've come to is that I will give him a sense of whether I think someone has Maddux or Ryan mechanics and is starter material or whether they have Prior or Wagner mechanics and is reliever/closer material.

Zumaya? Yeah, why would you want a guy like him? Apparently you missed the apperance he had against the Yankees in the playoffs? Joel needs to dial it down a bit and let Arod put the ball in play.

I personally saw Zumaya's appearance in the WS against the Cardinals and wasn't impressed. I don't feel about him the way I felt about Brad Lidge before Pujols broke him.

RobV

01-22-2007, 03:49 PM

It's not a scare tactic, it's a fact.

I am getting traction with a major league team because I have proven to them that I can accurately predict which pitchers are more likely to experience shoulder problems than others.

Oh really. You have a crystal ball or something? Tarrot cards...maybe reading there palms??

Snake oil..

Just because someones elbow goes above their shoulder doesn't mean instant injury (or future injury). You can't cookie cutter throwing mechanics for everyone who pitches.

Some pitchers are more "slinger" type of throwers (Verlander, Oswalt), others more "W" oriented in their scap load (Smoltz, Zumaya, Bonderman), while others can be considered "short armers" (Wagner, Colon). But they all scap load in one form or another.

Keeping the elbow below the shoulder will lead to pushing the ball if you are not flexible enough in the torso to overcome that poor leverage point.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 04:07 PM

Oh really. You have a crystal ball or something? Tarrot cards...maybe reading there palms??

No.

What I can do is make an educated guess about what shoulder problems a guy has had based on viewing a video of his mechanics.

I have tested this in a semi-scientific manner. I ask my friend to give me a clip and not tell me what problems the guy has had. I then tell him what problems I think he has had.

To date I'm around 100%.

This is based on simple pattern recognition and analysis. Looking for similarities and differences between mechanics and injury patterns.

Just because someones elbow goes above their shoulder doesn't mean instant injury (or future injury).

Yes it does.

This is a very reliable pattern.

You can't cookie cutter throwing mechanics for everyone who pitches.

Yes you can.

Ryan, Maddux, Clemens and others all have remarkably similar mechanics.

Some pitchers are more "slinger" type of throwers (Verlander, Oswalt), others more "W" oriented in their scap load (Smoltz, Zumaya, Bonderman), while others can be considered "short armers" (Wagner, Colon). But they all scap load in one form or another.

I agree that Verlander and Oswalt are different than Smoltz and Bonderman. I believe that that difference will lead to fewer shoulder problems for Verlander and Oswalt (because their mechanics are more like the Maddux/Ryan/Clemens model).

Zumaya's mechanics are more akin to Billy Wagner's (and Aaron Heilman's) and I expect him to have similar problems, especially if he is moved into the starting rotation.

Keeping the elbow below the shoulder will lead to pushing the ball if you are not flexible enough in the torso to overcome that poor leverage point.

I agree that dropping the PAS elbow too much can be bad. I think it may be related to Mark Mulder's problems.

However, there's no problem if the PAS elbow is JUST below the level of the shoulders.

jojab

01-22-2007, 04:28 PM

I personally saw Zumaya's appearance in the WS against the Cardinals and wasn't impressed. I don't feel about him the way I felt about Brad Lidge before Pujols broke him.

Of course not. You have a bias against him. He is just another 22 year-old kid throwing 100+ albeit not the way you think is proper.

If you look back you'll see that he was having a forearm problem around that time. Before you jump to any conclusions there, you might note that it is believed that the injury came from too much time playing the video game "Guitar Hero".

Perhaps that might be an idea for a new study of pitching prospects? You interview the potential draft pick and find out how much time he spends playing video games. You can then use that to predict their future injuries and if they should be drafted.

Here is the article:

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/HalfBaked/Detroit_Tigers/27862

RobV

01-22-2007, 04:55 PM

No.

What I can do is make an educated guess about what shoulder problems a guy has had based on viewing a video of his mechanics.

I have tested this in a semi-scientific manner. I ask my friend to give me a clip and not tell me what problems the guy has had. I then tell him what problems I think he has had.

To date I'm around 100%.

This is based on simple pattern recognition and analysis. Looking for similarities and differences between mechanics and injury patterns.

Guess. That's all it is. I don't buy your 100% record either.

I agree that Verlander and Oswalt are different than Smoltz and Bonderman. I believe that that difference will lead to fewer shoulder problems for Verlander and Oswalt (because their mechanics are more like the Maddux/Ryan/Clemens model).

Ha ha...yea right. Did you know that Oswalt had shoulder problems BEFORE he even got into the majors? That's right. Nice try. Seems he's doing fine now huh.

Zumaya's mechanics are more akin to Billy Wagner's (and Aaron Heilman's) and I expect him to have similar problems, especially if he is moved into the starting rotation.

Well you obviously have found a product to sell that will make you some money. Making people believe that you can predict when a player will have an injury, with your snake oil and scare tactics. Congratulations. Pretty slick.

Why would they want to shell out a bunch of money to some kid who will wind up on the injured list in a couple years (or sooner according to you).

Unbelieveable. How do you live with yourself?

Instead of telling kids to train properly and condition their bodies to perform at a peak level, and to the best of their abilities, you saying nothing that doesn't revolve around injuries and how someone is doomed to them with your faulty analysis.

Doom and gloom.

Pretty sad

Jake Patterson

01-22-2007, 04:58 PM

Rob,
Have you been to Chris' site and read all his material??

RobV

01-22-2007, 05:08 PM

Rob,
Have you been to Chris' site and read all his material??

I've read a few of his pitching analysis documents.

I wasn't impressed.

Jake Patterson

01-22-2007, 05:18 PM

I've read a few of his pitching analysis documents.

I wasn't impressed.

While I do not agree with him all the time, from a discussion perspective I feel he's brought a great deal more to the board than many others.

I do not see him as a doomsayer. I see him as a voice of reason in a sea of youth coaches hell bent on destroying young arms.

cubsphill

01-22-2007, 05:19 PM

ive found mr. o'leary's work to be very helpful

palo20

01-22-2007, 05:22 PM

Billy Wagner has had a series of shoulder problems despite being a closer.

I predict that Joel Zumaya will have comparable problems, especially if he is moved into the starting rotation.

I think it's a common mistake to assume that a closer role brings forth less stress than a starter's role. Jon Papelbon is a good example of this. Closer's have to pitch consecutive days, sometimes up to 4 or 5 consecutive days, and that's not including the many times they are forced to warm up and sit down.

Middle Relief is similar in that it's unpredictable and sometimes too much on the arm. I think this is one of the reasons why relief pitching, particularly at the middle relief level, is so unpredictable from year to year--the stress is just as much if not more than starters, despite the difference in total innings pitched.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 05:32 PM

Did you know that Oswalt had shoulder problems BEFORE he even got into the majors? That's right. Nice try. Seems he's doing fine now huh.

If you do the research, you'll find that Oswalt's shoulder problems appear to have arisen back in 1999 when the Astros were trying to "improve" his mechanics. They were messing with his stride and probably screwed up his timing (leading to problems with habitual ruishing). Trying to improve a pitcher's mechanics can often be dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing.

Why would they want to shell out a bunch of money to some kid who will wind up on the injured list in a couple years (or sooner according to you).

They don't.

That's why at least 2 big league teams (I know the guy who is exploring this topic for the Cardinals) are interested in this subject. They are sick and tired of paying guys to sit on the bench and seeing guys' arms blow up in the minors.

Unbelieveable. How do you live with yourself?

Quite well, thank you.

Instead of telling kids to train properly and condition their bodies to perform at a peak level, and to the best of their abilities, you saying nothing that doesn't revolve around injuries and how someone is doomed to them with your faulty analysis.

I have never said that guys shouldn't train and condition themselves.

They absolutely must.

However, all of that training and conditioning is for naught if your mechanics are fundamentally flawed.

Pretty sad

What's sad is watching clip after clip of HS and college prospects who obviously have what it takes but whose mechanics will (or more often already are) cause them serious, and IMO completely unnecessary, shoulder problems.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 05:36 PM

I think it's a common mistake to assume that a closer role brings forth less stress than a starter's role. Jon Papelbon is a good example of this. Closer's have to pitch consecutive days, sometimes up to 4 or 5 consecutive days, and that's not including the many times they are forced to warm up and sit down.

I agree that relieving can be very stressful, especially if a reliever isn't properly conditioned.

However, I think Papelbon has a very subtle mechanical flaw. Notice how high his PAS elbow is in this photo...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/JonathanPapelbon_2006_003.jpg

Compare this to a photo of Greg Maddux at the same moment in time...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/GregMaddux_2006_001.jpg

palo20

01-22-2007, 05:44 PM

I don't think Papelbon's elbow looks too bad, but you're saying it's about at the level of his shoulders at this point.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 05:52 PM

I don't think Papelbon's elbow looks too bad, but you're saying it's about at the level of his shoulders at this point.

Yes.

In contrast, Maddux's is just below the level of his shoulders.

I am concerned about Adam Wainwright for the same reason. Notice how high his PAS elbow is in this photo...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/AdamWainwright_2006_002.jpg

RobV

01-22-2007, 06:02 PM

If you do the research, you'll find that Oswalt's shoulder problems appear to have arisen back in 1999 when the Astros were trying to "improve" his mechanics. They were messing with his stride and probably screwed up his timing (leading to problems with habitual ruishing).

If you'd do the research you'd know that his problems started before he even signed with the Astros.

Trying to improve a pitcher's mechanics can often be dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing.

So why do you continue to do it?:laugh

They don't.

That's why at least 2 big league teams (I know the guy who is exploring this topic for the Cardinals) are interested in this subject. They are sick and tired of paying guys to sit on the bench and seeing guys' arms blow up in the minors.

And you're just the guy to provide them with the magic formula so they can see into the future to predict the injuries. Nice marketing ploy.

I have never said that guys shouldn't train and condition themselves.

They absolutely must.

However, all of that training and conditioning is for naught if your mechanics are fundamentally flawed.

According to you there are a whole bunch of ML pitchers out there whose mechanics are "fundamentally flawed". Let's just forget the fact that they may possibly just throw the ball differently than another guy. That they were good enough and threw well enough (and HARD enough) to get into the big leagues.

It MUST be a flaw, and they WILL get injured.

My formula says so.

What's sad is watching clip after clip of HS and college prospects who obviously have what it takes but whose mechanics will (or more often already are) cause them serious, and IMO completely unnecessary, shoulder problems.

Again....you're interpretation of mechanics.

Chris O'Leary

01-22-2007, 06:17 PM

According to you there are a whole bunch of ML pitchers out there whose mechanics are "fundamentally flawed". Let's just forget the fact that they may possibly just throw the ball differently than another guy.

Sorry, but your embrace-all-differences model doesn't work.

The truth is that...

1. Different pitchers throw with different mechanics.
2. Not every pitcher gets injured.
3A. The pitchers who get injured tend to throw with the same mechanics.
3B. The pitchers who do not get injured tend to throw with the same mechanics (and those mechanics are distinctly different than those used by pitchers mentioned in 3A).

That they were good enough and threw well enough (and HARD enough) to get into the big leagues.

Too bad many don't last.

hawkiirock

01-25-2007, 06:24 PM

Smoltzies bullpen had quite a say in his chase for the HOF as well. Sorry to get offtopicagreed.

Some MLB players scapula load and some don't.

The names I hear the most from scapula loading advocates are Joel Zumaya, John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez, and Wagner. Basically, the elites that throw the hardest in the MLB.

But if anything will keep Smoltz from reaching the HoF it will be because he gets injured too much.

Pedro Martinez has shoulder problems, and the man is only in his early 30's.

Billy Wagner, i'm not sure about his injury history but I don't think he has had injuries but he is a closer, he has pitched way less innings.

And Zumaya hasn't been in the buisness long enough.

Another one would be Daisuki Matsuzaka, but he has had arm problems also.

All the pitchers 20+ years ago probably never did it, and I don't believe Nolan Ryan or Eric Gagne scap load.

I'm not saying that if a pitcher scapula loads they are automatically guranteed an injury because it has more to do with pitch count (how long your shoulders are under that stress), innings pitched, and if they strech/warm up well. But I believe it is another factor for disaster. (No, i didn't make that rhyme on purpose).

hawkiirock

01-25-2007, 06:59 PM

john smoltz said closing was harder on his armI think it's a common mistake to assume that a closer role brings forth less stress than a starter's role. Jon Papelbon is a good example of this. Closer's have to pitch consecutive days, sometimes up to 4 or 5 consecutive days, and that's not including the many times they are forced to warm up and sit down.

Middle Relief is similar in that it's unpredictable and sometimes too much on the arm. I think this is one of the reasons why relief pitching, particularly at the middle relief level, is so unpredictable from year to year--the stress is just as much if not more than starters, despite the difference in total innings pitched.