Radar guns & youth

[2seamer]

I don't think the two should be combined.. I remember every time I saw a radar gun and was being clocked, I always tried to throw as hard as I could even if I didn't warm up, just to beat my buddies. Young kids shouldn't be getting clocked if they are aware of it because they will end up throwing out their arms and potentially ruining their baseball career. However it would probably be ok if they were be clocked without knowing because then they would be using proper mechanics and throwing their natural velocity.

anyone agree with me?

[Jake Patterson]

I don't think the two should be combined.. I remember every time I saw a radar gun and was being clocked, I always tried to throw as hard as I could even if I didn't warm up, just to beat my buddies. Young kids shouldn't be getting clocked if they are aware of it because they will end up throwing out their arms and potentially ruining their baseball career. However it would probably be ok if they were be clocked without knowing because then they would be using proper mechanics and throwing their natural velocity.

anyone agree with me?

Here's an article I wrote some time ago...

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[EdmondsFan#1]

Radar guns are a double edged sword. You get to know your velocity, that's (sometimes) always nice. But if you throw faster than you thought you will keep on trying to throw that hard and injure yourself. If you throw slower then expected, your are going to start trying to throw too hard; and injure yourself. If you throw as expected, i'm sure the average youth will want to throw harder, and end up... Injuring themselves.

So I agree, I guess it's nice for the kid to find out how hard they throw, but no matter what it says on the gun it will go to their head.

[onbaseball]

I agree with Jake --- the radar gun has no place in youth baseball.

There are only two places where I see it helpful among amateurs: 1. to help develop the change-up (by using the gun to measure your change in speed); and 2. for a HS graduate (or near graduate) who has aspirations to play pro baseball. For #2 radar is a necessary evil, as no pitcher gets signed without "dialing up the gun" ... and if you're 18 or older and think you have pro talent, a measure of your fastball speed in MPH can be a determining factor in whether you pursue life as a professional pitcher or an accounting degree.

As far as youths go (i.e., age 7-17), the gun does more harm than good in most cases.

[YankeeFan01]

I kinda just find it fun to throw against one with friends at a fair or something.

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't think the two should be combined.. I remember every time I saw a radar gun and was being clocked, I always tried to throw as hard as I could even if I didn't warm up, just to beat my buddies. Young kids shouldn't be getting clocked if they are aware of it because they will end up throwing out their arms and potentially ruining their baseball career. However it would probably be ok if they were be clocked without knowing because then they would be using proper mechanics and throwing their natural velocity. anyone agree with me?

I completely agree.

The problem I have with them is that they encourage people to pursue velocity for its own sake. As a result, people end up throwing harder than they need to to be effective, which increases the risk of injury. They also get focused on throwing rather than really learning how to pitch.

[Chris O'Leary]

I kinda just find it fun to throw against one with friends at a fair or something.

I understand the temptation and know that it can be fun at times.

However, the problem with this scenario is that you are...

1. Trying to throw as hard as you can.
2. Without warming up.

That can be a recipe for disaster.

No pro would try to do a max effort throw on a completely cold arm.

[baseonegoal]

I agree that a radar gun if used without proper guidance and common sense can injure a players arm. I used one last season for the first time. After about 3 weeks into the practice season and before we start to play regular season games I used it at one practice just for our pitchers. I take one pitcher and a catcher to a pitching mound and plate which we have as a bull pen type area away from the other players. I have them warm up slow. After they throw 15 times and have slowly come up to speed. I have them pitch 15 times at game speed using fastballs and change ups only. The last 5 pitches I will gun and only give them the speed of the ones in the strike zone. Reinforcing the fact that I do not want them to over throw to the point of no control and hurting there arm. I did this 3 or 4 times last season just to see if over time they have improved there speed a little. I do not use it every practice or during a game. No pitcher on my team last year had a sore arm or shouder. I have coached the age group of 9-12 Little League for 23 years. I have found that you have to use common sense when managing kids. Any tool used improperly will cause injury. This is a great site. Thank you.

[Hardball]

I used to watch Mike Brito stand behind the plate with a radar gun whenever Fernando Valenzuela pitched, every pitch, and I still don't know why. They are probably a great tool for finding out which change up grip works best, but frankly, after watching Greg Maddux mystify folks this past year i can't imagine why people would value velocity over control, deception, and location.

They make even less sense when used on kids.

[2seamer]

It also affect the players mechanics, not only are they trying to throw their hardest, they are most likely messing up their mechanics which WILL threaten to injure their arms.

[EdmondsFan#1]

IMO, people (mainly teenagers) want velocity, not because they rate it above control, location, and deception, but because that is what will get them noticed. Most scouts think of it as, you can teach control, deception, location, and movement, but you can't teach a guy to throw 95 mph. I think teenagers (mainly) think that they have to throw hard to be succesful because they see MLB players on TV and they tossing 90+ mph fastballs.

Also, I think it has to do with feeling like the "alpha male".

And i'm just talking from what i think as a teenager. I want velocity, maybe a little too much, i definetly can't deny that. But I do rate control, deception, and movement ahead of it. Problem is I already have plenty of movement and deception but I can't control my pitches even if i threw them slower. But I definetly wish I had more of it...

My list of importance would be: 1. Control , 2. movement , 3. velocity , 4. composture , 5. deception

[Jake Patterson]

I used one last season for the first time. After about 3 weeks into the practice season and before we start to play regular season games I used it at one practice just for our pitchers.

At this age group I guess I would question what value does it bring, other than satisfying your own curiosity? It is not used as an evaluation tool because if they throw 50 or 55 who cares? Most youth coaches can easily identify who their pitchers are who they aren't. I am still of the mind throw the gun away and work on mechanics. Once the kids see the gun, whether you intend it or not they are probably going to do something they shouldn't.

[Hardball]

Also, I think it has to do with feeling like the "alpha male".




Methinks EdmondsFan#1 is on to something.

[RobV]

Radar guns are very usefull evaluation tool. They can also be used as a form of feedback when working on throwing and hitting mechanics.

Like any other gun, use common sense when using it.

They may or may not be usefull for a very young child (under 10), but they cannot be dismissed as harmful when used properly.

[Jake Patterson]

Radar guns are very usefull evaluation tool. They can also be used as a form of feedback when working on throwing and hitting mechanics.

Like any other gun, use common sense when using it.

They may or may not be usefull for a very young child (under 10), but they cannot be dismissed as harmful when used properly.

Rob, explain how they are useful in youth ball? Instant feedback that says they are throwing 53 MPH versus 51 MPH means little.

[RobV]

When working on mechanics, and evaluating the results of throws. That's the kind of feedback I'm talking about.

For someone who is trying to reach their throwing potential, increased velocity is important. Even if it is only 53 mph.

For others (like scouts or coaches) who are evalutating older kids (HS age), it's an evaluation tool to see if they should even bother to continue looking at a kid.

[Jake Patterson]

For others (like scouts or coaches) who are evalutating older kids (HS age), it's an evaluation tool to see if they should even bother to continue looking at a kid.

On this we agree.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Radar guns should be kept away from kids and only scouts and coaches should use them.

Scouts, for pitch velocity; changeup-fastball difference

Coaches, for bat speed

imo.

[KCFAN11]

If your in youth baseball the you shouldnt be worried about how hard you are throwing

[Mark H]

Rob is right. As to the all the factors, the more velocity, including change of velocity, movement and location the better. You better have a lot of two of them.

If you are working on velocity, and why wouldn't you work on all three, you need something else beside "feel" to know whether what you are trying is working. To put it another way, a huge key to improving anything is immediate objective feedback. You can accomplish this with long toss (the poor man's radar) or you can do it with radar. Making the radar a regular feature of training when working on velocity takes away the novelty and the temptation to do something injurious. It's the occassional chance to throw on radar that leads to injuries. Why use it with youngsters? They are working on and setting habits for how they are going to use their bodies to throw the ball. Without immediate objective feedback, they have no way of knowing what "feel" results in throwing the ball faster aka using their body more efficiently to throw the ball. Guess it depends on whether the pitcher is working on reaching his potential or just trying to have a little fun. Either is fine. Different gifts and goals.

Here are some throwing clips for your enjoyment.

http://imageevent.com/siggy

[Jake Patterson]

Rob is right. As to the all the factors, the more velocity, including change of velocity, movement and location the better. You better have a lot of two of them.

If you are working on velocity, and why wouldn't you work on all three, you need something else beside "feel" to know whether what you are trying is working. To put it another way, a huge key to improving anything is immediate objective feedback. You can accomplish this with long toss (the poor man's radar) or you can do it with radar. Making the radar a regular feature of training when working on velocity takes away the novelty and the temptation to do something injurious. It's the occassional chance to throw on radar that leads to injuries. Why use it with youngsters? They are working on and setting habits for how they are going to use their bodies to throw the ball. Without immediate objective feedback, they have no way of knowing what "feel" results in throwing the ball faster aka using their body more efficiently to throw the ball.

Respectfully disagree. Knowing that a young player is throwing 50 versus 52 MPH brings little to the table WRT to training or mechanics. How much variation would you expect in a child? 10%, 20%? If it's single digits who cares as long as the pitcher is hitting spots and throwing well.

If this is the case why not use it for swinging? the reason is the batter would focus on bat speed an not mechanics. If he can swing a bat at 70 MPH and cannot hit a ball what have we gained?

The problem is the typical youth coach won't use the gun properly and every kid who's a competitor will attempt to throw harder than he should.

I'll ask you the same thing I've asked others in the past. Show me one expert who says it's good to use. I have asked dozens of HS, college, doctors, PT's and pro coaches and none have support the use of guns in youth baseball.

[Mark H]

If you can't measure something, how do you know if you are improving it? As to training with a device to measure batspeed, sure, people do and it's a good idea though I'm more concerned about quickness than bathead speed. As to whether a few mph is important to a young player, pitcher or otherwise, I'm not focused on winning games. I'm focused on helping the kid who really wants to develop himself to be the best he can be, to do so. Boys go out and test themselves to see how far they can throw. Same thing, immediate objective feedback. Now if you are talking about a kid who is happy with how good he is and he wants to have fun in LL and maybe hs, you don't need a gun. OTOH, if you are more comfortable with long toss, use that, it's cheaper anyway. What is harder than he should? Every boy who is competitive enough to excel in sports is going to throw as hard as can and or as far as he can at least from time to time.

[passerby]

In principle I'm with Mark H and Rob V. I think like any other tool, you need to use it wisely. If a young man has no clue on how to throw, building speed should not be the emphasis. Technique should be. A parallel can be drawn to weightlifting. If a young man has low strength for his age, he should focus on body weight exercises and forget the weights. Just my .02.

[Chris O'Leary]

The problem is the typical youth coach won't use the gun properly and every kid who's a competitor will attempt to throw harder than he should.

I agree.

Also, you can only tell if a kid is really effective or not by putting him in a game and seeing if he gets guys outs.

[onbaseball]

If you can't measure something, how do you know if you are improving it? As to training with a device to measure batspeed, sure, people do and it's a good idea though I'm more concerned about quickness than bathead speed. As to whether a few mph is important to a young player, pitcher or otherwise, I'm not focused on winning games. I'm focused on helping the kid who really wants to develop himself to be the best he can be, to do so. Boys go out and test themselves to see how far they can throw. Same thing, immediate objective feedback. Now if you are talking about a kid who is happy with how good he is and he wants to have fun in LL and maybe hs, you don't need a gun. OTOH, if you are more comfortable with long toss, use that, it's cheaper anyway. What is harder than he should? Every boy who is competitive enough to excel in sports is going to throw as hard as can and or as far as he can at least from time to time.

Your point of "immediate objective feedback" does have merit. However, as Jake pointed out, what is the difference between throwing 55 or 50? And how can we be sure that 55 is "better" ?

Yes, I know the difference is 5 MPH but with a child that age should there really be a focus on "faster is better"? I've always believed you need to teach location first, second, and third at younger ages, and once they have truly developed some command, maybe teach them about pressure points and movement ... then the speed will come as they mature.

And anyway how do we know that extra 5 MPH didn't happen because of a kid straining his arm?

I used a gun at the college level one year and discovered that when the pitchers were working on, and thinking about, good mechanics, their speed usually DROPPED a few MPH --- at least for a while (the original "top" speed was usually surpassed by those who repeated their mechanics over the course of several months and also spent time developing core and leg strength). This resulted in discouraging some guys, who for example were throwing 85 with bad mechanics and "only" 82 with good mechanics ... and thus made it harder to sell the idea of using their whole body to pitch instead of just their arm.

[Mark H]

In principle I'm with Mark H and Rob V. I think like any other tool, you need to use it wisely. If a young man has no clue on how to throw, building speed should not be the emphasis. Technique should be.

Brings up the question of whose opinion on technique but that's a discussion for another thread. Within the confines of whatever technique, how does the kid know if this feel or that feel produced better results without measuring the result?

[Jake Patterson]

Brings up the question of whose opinion on technique but that's a discussion for another thread. Within the confines of whatever technique, how does the kid know if this feel or that feel produced better results without measuring the result?

You have to first define reasonable measurable criteria that determines success. At the youth level I find form and fit most important and measure effectivness by the pitcher's ability to hit spots and strike out batters. Spots can be easily determined with a backstop and a little tape.

[Mark H]

I agree.

Also, you can only tell if a kid is really effective or not by putting him in a game and seeing if he gets guys outs.

Back up from there. Though I agree with you, I'm not talking about learning to be an effective pitcher. I'm talking about working on one of the underlying abilities effective pitching is built on. Sure, keep working on his craft but never quit working on velocity development.

[Mark H]

You have to first define reasonable measurable criteria that determines success. At the youth level I find form and fit most important and measure effectivness by the pitcher's ability to hit spots and strike out batters. Spots can be easily determined with a backstop and a little tape.

Velocity, movement and control. You are working on control. Great. Spend part of his time working on each of those three.

[Jake Patterson]

Velocity, movement and control. You are working on control. Great. Spend part of his time working on each of those three.

Let me ask this then. What overall effect do you think the guns would have if we made them available to all youth coaches, say Little League or Babe Ruth?

[Mark H]

Your point of "immediate objective feedback" does have merit. However, as Jake pointed out, what is the difference between throwing 55 or 50? And how can we be sure that 55 is "better" ?.

Velocity is one of the underlying abilities. Work on it. If he backs off a tad in games for control, would you rather he was backing off a couple of mph from 55 or a couple of mph from 50?





Yes, I know the difference is 5 MPH but with a child that age should there really be a focus on "faster is better"? I've always believed you need to teach location first, second, and third at younger ages, and once they have truly developed some command, maybe teach them about pressure points and movement ... then the speed will come as they mature..

The motion they learn early will be difficult to change later. Learn to use the body efficiently to throw hard, then learn control. I should qualify that to say my advice applies if you are trying to help the kid reach his long term potential. If he just wants to have a fun youth career and be done with it, work on control first and sure, as he gets bigger and stronger, he will throw harder. I would maintain not as hard as he might have though.





And anyway how do we know that extra 5 MPH didn't happen because of a kid straining his arm?.

Trying to reach your best entails risk. No getting around it. OTOH, if he's using the gun regularly, he will figure out that throwing with a relaxed whippy arm results in more speed than straining.





I used a gun at the college level one year and discovered that when the pitchers were working on, and thinking about, good mechanics, their speed usually DROPPED a few MPH --- at least for a while (the original "top" speed was usually surpassed by those who repeated their mechanics over the course of several months and also spent time developing core and leg strength). This resulted in discouraging some guys, who for example were throwing 85 with bad mechanics and "only" 82 with good mechanics ... and thus made it harder to sell the idea of using their whole body to pitch instead of just their arm.

Sometimes you do have to back up before you can move forward.

Anytime I hear the phrase "good mechanics" I cringe. There is no accepted definition in baseball for "good mechanics" so what does the term really mean? House's mechanics? Mills? Nyman? Wolforth? The local college coach?

[Mark H]

Let me ask this then. What overall effect do you think the guns would have if we made them available to all youth coaches, say Little League or Babe Ruth?

If you are saying the knowledge base in that group varies wildly, I agree. But the team coaches should be coaching teams. The kid who is trying to reach his potential at a high level isn't going to be working on this sort of thing in a LL BR team setting. Not enough time and often not enough expertise. I'm not talking about bringing the gun to LL practice. I'm talking about the pitching coach or dad using the gun in a regular structured program designed to bring out the best in velocity, movement AND control. Headed into the big city. I'll check the thread later.

[RobV]

Your point of "immediate objective feedback" does have merit. However, as Jake pointed out, what is the difference between throwing 55 or 50? And how can we be sure that 55 is "better" ?

Yes, I know the difference is 5 MPH but with a child that age should there really be a focus on "faster is better"? I've always believed you need to teach location first, second, and third at younger ages, and once they have truly developed some command, maybe teach them about pressure points and movement ... then the speed will come as they mature.

This IMO is where I think a lot of people make a huge mistake.

You should start by teaching a solid delivery (good throwing mechanics). Then the emphasis should be to have kids just learn to throw far, and throw hard using these mechanics. It's possible they won't be very accurate for a while, maybe a long while, but who cares,let them just throw and have fun.

I've heard it said that the quickest way to destroy a kids throwing potential is to turn him into a "pitcher" at a young age.


And anyway how do we know that extra 5 MPH didn't happen because of a kid straining his arm?

I used a gun at the college level one year and discovered that when the pitchers were working on, and thinking about, good mechanics, their speed usually DROPPED a few MPH --- at least for a while (the original "top" speed was usually surpassed by those who repeated their mechanics over the course of several months and also spent time developing core and leg strength). This resulted in discouraging some guys, who for example were throwing 85 with bad mechanics and "only" 82 with good mechanics ... and thus made it harder to sell the idea of using their whole body to pitch instead of just their arm.

This is probably because they didn't keep throwing using these "good mechanics". There is always an initial drop in velocity when learning a new movement pattern. But once that new motor pattern is embedded in muscle memory, then the emphasis can move to throwing the ball harder/faster.

This is no easy thing to do. By time a kid is in college, he has thrown many thousands of times using a certain movement. You don't just change that overnight, or in a week, month or even a year.

[Jake Patterson]

Anytime I hear the phrase "good mechanics" I cringe. There is no accepted definition in baseball for "good mechanics" so what does the term really mean? House's mechanics? Mills? Nyman? Wolforth? The local college coach?

This may be true, but at the youth level I am certain we would have an easier time agreeing on bad mechanics.

[Jake Patterson]

Anytime I hear the phrase "good mechanics" I cringe. There is no accepted definition in baseball for "good mechanics" so what does the term really mean? House's mechanics? Mills? Nyman? Wolforth? The local college coach?
It would be interesting to hear what these guys would have to say on this topic. I know what Mills thinks.

[passerby]

Brings up the question of whose opinion on technique but that's a discussion for another thread. Within the confines of whatever technique, how does the kid know if this feel or that feel produced better results without measuring the result?

It goes without saying that you can get some good info on basic biomechanics of throwing alot of places including (gasp) TV. And yes, SETPRO comes to mind. Note I am talking about throwing and not pitching. Again, I would think that before you start measuring the result, you have to be somewhat assured the youngster knows how to throw. When I was a kid, that was done by emulating my favorite pro.

[Sparksdale]

Everyone knows my opinion on this subject. The problem I see is that there is no wrong answer and everyone is right. I was reading on another thread where a father's son's arm was hurting and he mentioned he had him using a medicine ball for training. Personally, I think this is terrible to allow a 10 year old kid to work out with any kind of weights. I guess you can tell that I don't agree with the weighted balls either.

I can't think of a subject that get's everyone as "riled-up" as the radar gun.

All I can say is my point of view. I do not think my boy would be the player he is without having used the radar gun. He had a personal goal to hit a certain speed and I tell you he worked like crazy in the backyard to reach that speed. His last goal was to hit 56 mph before his 11th birthday. He hit that goal and you would not believe the joy it gave him. I must also add he had a goal of hitting a ball over the fence at the age of 10 and he achieved that goal as well.

I was having trouble getting him off the play station and into the backyard. But boy when I bought that radar gun he really wanted to see what he could do. When we first bought it I told him he had to throw for at least two weeks before we used it. I stuck to my word. After working in the backyard for two weeks we got the gun out.

In my backyard I have a pitching mound and a net to hit and throw balls into. I also have a pitching machine (plastic balls that I swear by this machine). And another tool I have is the radar gun. My boy has a goal of hitting a certain speed on the gun and this gives him incentive to work on his game. For this reason I think the radar gun is good.

Of course you could say I'm doing something wrong if I have to have a radar gun to inspire my boy. For that I must confess I agree. A better teacher/coach might be able to inspire my boy in other ways. I found something that worked and it works for us.

Last year my boy was one of the best 10 year old players in our area. He was the starting pitcher on the all star team and he also played in the 11-13 year old league at the age of 10. HE lead the team in homeruns and batting average every year he has played.

My point is this, if my boy was like most of the other kids that I coached who only practiced baseball once a week. I seriously doubt, let me rephrase that, I know he would not been as good of a player. He has worked hard on his game. The radar gun was one of the tools that I used and I'm glad I used it.

I will say this, now that he is 11 years old we don't use the gun near as much. Just the other day (after throwing for a couple of weeks) my boy and I went in the backyard to throw. I asked did he want me to get the gun and he told me no. He said I just want to work on a few pitches. Boy oh boy did I smile when he said that.

My boy tried out and made a travel team in our area. It has always been a dream of his to be on a travel team (I must admit I wanted it as well because I wanted him to have good coaching). Without a doubt I think the radar gun has helped get him to be the player he is. Of course it isn't everything but it was an important part.

[scorekeeper]

I agree.

Also, you can only tell if a kid is really effective or not by putting him in a game and seeing if he gets guys outs.

ROTFLMAO!

Chris, if you were standing here beside me, I’d give ya a big hug! I wish I’d have said that!

Why is it that nearly everyone is so intent on trying to find reasons for success, that they completely forget what it is?

[Jake Patterson]

Hi Sparks,
We have talked often about this and we all agree there is a time and place for almost everything...

With regards to the following...

Without a doubt I think the radar gun has helped get him to be the player he is.
I just hope it doesn't prevent him from being the player he could be.

[Sparksdale]

The thing of it is this...everyone say's you can't have a kid throw hard while you're using a radar gun. In my mind this argument isn't sound because kids are going to throw hard anyway. I mean tell me one single kid who doesn't go out and throw as hard as they can? Doesn't happen.

Here is what I did. My boy was hitting 47 or so (at 9). He nor I had any idea about mechanics, and the coach who was coaching him didn't either. I bought a DVD about pitching. It showed some basic pitching mechanics.
I told my boy if we get his mechanics in shape then he will easily pick up the 3mph he wants (at the time he wanted to hit 50).

He worked hard on his mechanics in within two weeks his speed was up to 49. Then in a few short days he hit 50+. During a game the umpire told me my boy had the best mechanics he had seen in 17 years of LL umpiring. Of course the umpire was being kind. I know my boy's mechanics aren't perfect, but they were far better than any of the other kids at age 9.

See my point? I actually used the radar gun to get my boy to work on his mechanics. When I bought that DVD my boy took to it like a duck to water and he soaked up everything in the DVD. His mechanics were so bad that after watching a DVD he picked up 4 or so mph on his pitches.

So in effect the radar gun helped my boy use better mechanics....it's a win win.

All kids are going to throw as hard as they can and if you tell me that you have a group of kids who don't then, well, I have a hard time believing that. Maybe you can use the radar gun to show the kids (in real terms) how it can increase their speed. You just watch and see how hard they work to get that extra 5mph.

[Chris O'Leary]

Back up from there. Though I agree with you, I'm not talking about learning to be an effective pitcher. I'm talking about working on one of the underlying abilities effective pitching is built on. Sure, keep working on his craft but never quit working on velocity development.

I agree that velocity has to keep progressing. It's one of the things that's on my mind to work on with my 12U son.

But I have learned the hard way that it's not enough.

[Jake Patterson]

So in effect the radar gun helped my boy use better mechanics....it's a win win.
If you use this as your arguement then why aren't you measuring his bat speed, home to first speeds, transition speeds. throwing accuracy, pitch times, etc...?

[onbaseball]

Velocity is one of the underlying abilities. Work on it. If he backs off a tad in games for control, would you rather he was backing off a couple of mph from 55 or a couple of mph from 50?


I didn't say you shouldn't work on velocity, I just don't know why you need to measure it. I don't think anyone uses a Questec to measure their balls and strikes, and there still isn't a device that measures movement.

The motion they learn early will be difficult to change later. Learn to use the body efficiently to throw hard, then learn control. I should qualify that to say my advice applies if you are trying to help the kid reach his long term potential. If he just wants to have a fun youth career and be done with it, work on control first and sure, as he gets bigger and stronger, he will throw harder. I would maintain not as hard as he might have though.


I disagree. Using that approach, we would teach our hitters to "swing as hard as they can, and don't worry about whether or not you hit the ball".

If he's doesn't hit the ball very often, his youth career will be over quickly and not much fun. Works the same way for a pitcher ... if he ain't throwing strikes, he ain't pitching, and it ain't much fun walking everyone.

I also disagree in that you can teach control and speed at the same time through sound mechanics that employ the entire body.



Anytime I hear the phrase "good mechanics" I cringe. There is no accepted definition in baseball for "good mechanics" so what does the term really mean? House's mechanics? Mills? Nyman? Wolforth? The local college coach?

I cringe when people say there's no definition of "good mechanics". IMHO there is no one guru who is 100% correct on defining "good mechanics". However, if you listen / read everyone who has had many years of success (success meaning keeping arms healthy while at the same time getting them to the college and to the pros), then eventually you will keep hearing some of the same things over and over. If you watch videos of pitchers who had long, injury-free, successful careers, they will do many of the same things. The similarities that tie House to Mills to Nyman to Wolforth to Seaver to Ryan to Feller to Mazzone to Peterson to the college coach to anyone else who has extensive experience and success, are the fundamentals used as a guide for "good mechanics".

I think the problem is that there are too many "gurus" out there screaming that it's their way or the highway ... or if you don't do what they say then you're somehow wrong ... but that's for another thread ..........

[dw8man]

I am not sure if a gun can really tell as much on a youth player as it could on a older more mature player. Most kids between 11 and 16 go through some major growth spurts (in case no one knew that :rolleyes: ) which can cause them to have a nature increase in velocity. If you are using the gun to measure a kids improvement, how do you know the improvement is from what you are teaching instead of a natural increase? I think the variable are too many on youth players to use it as an effective tool. With my son, we work on control, movement and speed. The speed is not neglected, it is just not the focus. I, we, have no idea how fast he throws. Don't care either. He does the drills (long toss and others) but also works very hard on the complete package. We spend probably just as much time on slide steps, holding runners, pitch outs and pitching concepts as we do on increasing velocity. While I feel that he is not the fastest pitcher in the leagues he plays, his is usually one of the best.

[GFK]

All three of my sons (9, 11, & 12) use weighted balls, throw to the gun regularly, throw long toss, & lift weights. Should I be expecting a visit from Child Protective Services?

Of course my sons and I could all take the safe route and just park in front of the TV or Nintendo. I wonder what the injury rate is for Nintendo?

[Jake Patterson]

All three of my sons (9, 11, & 12) use weighted balls, throw to the gun regularly, throw long toss, & lift weights. Should I be expecting a visit from Child Protective Services? Of course my sons and I could all take the safe route and just park in front of the TV or Nintendo. I wonder what the injury rate is for Nintendo
Why should the choice be gun or Nintendo?

[Mark H]

I agree that velocity has to keep progressing. It's one of the things that's on my mind to work on with my 12U son.

But I have learned the hard way that it's not enough.

Amen on that.

[Mark H]

If you use this as your arguement then why aren't you measuring his bat speed, home to first speeds, transition speeds. throwing accuracy, pitch times, etc...?

You're right. Who among us does everything we could in the pursuit of excellence and how many kids have the passion to follow that path?

[Jake Patterson]

You're right. Who among us does everything we could in the pursuit of excellence and how many kids have the passion to follow that path?

My point is bat speed means little to the batter if his mechanics do not allow him to hit the ball well. Ask a hitting guru if he tracks bat speed. They don't because the focus on speed detracts from form. We all agree that bat speed is key in hitting a ball hard and we all know what will happen to mechanics if we tell a batter we're going to measure his bat speed.

I will concede to an earlier post that a gun becomes somewhat important at some point. I feel that point shouldn't occur until at least late HS

[Sparksdale]

If you use this as your arguement then why aren't you measuring his bat speed, home to first speeds, transition speeds. throwing accuracy, pitch times, etc...?

Jake,

I do measure bat speed, and of course speed on the bases. I've always done that. ON 70 ft bases he timed 3.6 seconds from home to first.....not great but above average for the other players on the traveling team.
We always stress throwing accuracy. I put a trash can on homeplate and have him try to hit the can from short stop and also from third base....done that many times. I've also done it from center field as well.

I don't just use the radar gun....I try to the best of my ability to use everything.

As I said before I have a pitching machine that pitches plastic balls. I think that is the single best thing I've ever bought him and I'm convinced it has made him the hitter that he is. It is very hard to hit those plastic balls coming at you 40 or 50 mph when they are dancing all over the place. But boy it really works on his hand eye coridation and I love that thing. Yeah, there is a batting cage in my city that throws fast balls and stuff (it's also expensive). I personally don't think it is near as good as this machine that pitches plastic balls.

Anyway, I hate to get into the argument of radar guns. It's an argument that no one can win because we all think we are right. I honestly believe that all of us are right. The main thing is to get the kids to get off the video games and outside. In the end, if a radar gun helped get my child outside then I think it was worth it. I think I've said many times I don't abuse the radar gun, although I can see how it can easily be abused. Then again, anything can be abused.

Sparks,

[Mark H]

I didn't say you shouldn't work on velocity, I just don't know why you need to measure it

Because subjective opinion about how fast that pitch was is not reliable and if the kid doesn't know if this feel or that feel resulted in more velocity his progress will be slower or worse. The principle of immediate objective feedback is a well accepted motor learning principle which should be well understood by any one teaching physical skills.





I disagree. Using that approach, we would teach our hitters to "swing as hard as they can, and don't worry about whether or not you hit the ball".

I would say "swing as quick as you can" but sure, some of his training should absolutely be learning to swing as quickly as possible. If you don't work on something it's not likely to improve.





If he's doesn't hit the ball very often, his youth career will be over quickly and not much fun. Works the same way for a pitcher ... if he ain't throwing strikes, he ain't pitching, and it ain't much fun walking everyone.

Learn to throw, then learn to pitch. Doesn't help you win games but it does increase his long term chances. Assuming he's interested in those chances. Comes down to this, intent shapes training results. If the intent of training is to learn to throw the crap out of the ball, his body will organize itself to do that. THEN, you can refine that but if you start out training for control, you will have to relearn control if you go back and learn to use your body optimally to throw the crap out of the ball. This is a choice and depending on your gifts and goals either may be indicated but the process is no more debatable than gravity.










I also disagree in that you can teach control and speed at the same time through sound mechanics that employ the entire body.

I would agree.




I cringe when people say there's no definition of "good mechanics". IMHO there is no one guru who is 100% correct on defining "good mechanics". However, if you listen / read everyone who has had many years of success (success meaning keeping arms healthy while at the same time getting them to the college and to the pros), then eventually you will keep hearing some of the same things over and over. If you watch videos of pitchers who had long, injury-free, successful careers, they will do many of the same things. The similarities that tie House to Mills to Nyman to Wolforth to Seaver to Ryan to Feller to Mazzone to Peterson to the college coach to anyone else who has extensive experience and success, are the fundamentals used as a guide for "good mechanics".

I think the problem is that there are too many "gurus" out there screaming that it's their way or the highway ... or if you don't do what they say then you're somehow wrong ... but that's for another thread ..........

Same thing only different? As always, compare everything anyone says to slow motion video of the best in the world.

Some throwing clips. http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing

[Mark H]

I am not sure if a gun can really tell as much on a youth player as it could on a older more mature player. Most kids between 11 and 16 go through some major growth spurts (in case no one knew that :rolleyes: ) which can cause them to have a nature increase in velocity. If you are using the gun to measure a kids improvement, how do you know the improvement is from what you are teaching instead of a natural increase? I think the variable are too many on youth players to use it as an effective tool. With my son, we work on control, movement and speed. The speed is not neglected, it is just not the focus. I, we, have no idea how fast he throws. Don't care either. He does the drills (long toss and others) but also works very hard on the complete package. We spend probably just as much time on slide steps, holding runners, pitch outs and pitching concepts as we do on increasing velocity. While I feel that he is not the fastest pitcher in the leagues he plays, his is usually one of the best.

If he's working on long toss in the sense of throwing it as far as he possibly can that is immediate objective feedback and the goal is being accomplished. Long toss is the poor man's radar. Nothing wrong with that.

[RobV]

Well said Mark.

[Mark H]

My point is bat speed means little to the batter if his mechanics do not allow him to hit the ball well. Ask a hitting guru if he tracks bat speed. They don't because the focus on speed detracts from form. We all agree that bat speed is key in hitting a ball hard and we all know what will happen to mechanics if we tell a batter we're going to measure his bat speed.

I will concede to an earlier post that a gun becomes somewhat important at some point. I feel that point shouldn't occur until at least late HS

I think you understand why I would say bat quickness instead of bat speed. Bat speed and quickness are the result of good/efficient mechanics. Some very good instructors do use bat speed measuring devices but it's more trouble and cost. As far as what will happen to mechanics if we tell him we are going to measure his bat speed and quickness, maybe at first they will go south but in the long run, the measurement will help. It's a question of form versus function. A certain form/look is not important. The function is and stressing the system by measuring the results and trying to imrprove forces the hitter to trial and error different things till he finds out what quick and efficient feels like to him. THIS is how a hitter learns. The form/mechanics/instruction is just to speed up this trial and error process. The form is not the goal, it's just a way to speed up the process of getting to the goal.

[scorekeeper]

Interesting topic and evidently not just to me.

But here’s a way that might help some people wrap their minds around the value of radar guns. Of all the things technology has brought to the game, which one could disappear tomorrow and have the least effect on the game as its played today?

Pick the top 10, 20, or whatever things, then see how radar guns in baseball stands up to the test.

I’m talking about things like, metal bats, modern video, Sabermetrics, computer analysis, medical knowledge, or it could be anything you like. Which of those things could today’s game do without and not be changed, more than radar guns?

[Jake Patterson]

It's a question of form versus function. A certain form/look is not important. The function is .....
There's a third part to this... "fit" ... Form-fit-function

Using this line of reasoning maybe this is where we part in our beliefs.

[TG Coach]

For #2 radar is a necessary evil, as no pitcher gets signed without "dialing up the gun" ... and if you're 18 or older and think you have pro talent, a measure of your fastball speed in MPH can be a determining factor in whether you pursue life as a professional pitcher or an accounting degree.

All the prospect has to do is crank up one pitch an inning in front of the scouts. They only have to see max speed once to consider potential.

[Jake Patterson]

If nothing else I was going to leave a clean post where I accidently created a duplicate. When I saved the edit a post was required. If someone can explain how to delete a duplicate post, please do. I can't find a delete function.

I'll send a PM

[TG Coach]

I used to watch Mike Brito stand behind the plate with a radar gun whenever Fernando Valenzuela pitched, every pitch, and I still don't know why. They are probably a great tool for finding out which change up grip works best, but frankly, after watching Greg Maddux mystify folks this past year i can't imagine why people would value velocity over control, deception, and location.

They make even less sense when used on kids.

Brito should have had a counter instead of a radar gun. Valenzuela used to throw 150-175 a game. One time Lasorda left him in for 230. Lasorda smoked Valenzuela's arm. Then again, he could have been 29 when he claimed to be 19.

[TG Coach]

All kids are going to throw as hard as they can and if you tell me that you have a group of kids who don't then, well, I have a hard time believing that.

All that's needed is teaching pitchers mechanics and cruising speed. Maxing out the fastball usually sacrifices mechanics, control and command.

[Mark H]

Cruising speed being a little below max speed so let's train, outside of games, to increase our max and cruising speed. Let's don't mix up discussion of training regimens and discussion of game strategy.

[Mark H]

There's a third part to this... "fit" ... Form-fit-function

Using this line of reasoning maybe this is where we part in our beliefs.

I remember you mentioning this before. Can you summarize it again?

[Jake Patterson]

I remember you mentioning this before. Can you summarize it again?

Form, fit and function (F3) is an engineering design term that describes development parameters when designing a new product. Form is the size and shape of the product. Fit is the products ability to interact or connect with another item and function is the products performance ability.

As it see it applies in this context I see form as the pitchers ability to throw using sound mechanics. Function as the pitcher's ability to throw strikes and Fit as whether or not they are throwing at age appropriate levels.

Specifically as it applies to the guns I see fit in terms of whether or not the guns are a reasonable means of interacting with the athlete.

[Mark H]

I would say it depends so I guess I'm saying you have a point. Depends on your gifts and goals.

Back on the subject of do we train for accuracy and control first or power, speed and quickness first, here is a related study from another sport. It's not baseball but ballistic movement athletic training is related across all sport.

http://www.easitennis.com/PTAClinic/StrokeOrMovement.htm

For your entertainment.

[Jake Patterson]

I would say it depends so I guess I'm saying you have a point. Depends on your gifts and goals.

Back on the subject of do we train for accuracy and control first or power, speed and quickness first, here is a related study from another sport. It's not baseball but ballistic movement athletic training is related across all sport.

http://www.easitennis.com/PTAClinic/StrokeOrMovement.htm

For your entertainment.

Good article - I do not think you and I are so off on what we think.

The article refers to mostly pro and indicates elite athletes, unless I missed something. I feel the "power first" mentality is a reasonable approach for HS and above where population size allows the luxury, but I would say (based on nothing but my opinion at the moment) that the pendulum may be swinging back, the whole steroid use thing and all...

You points about instant feedback with serious athletes is valid and I understand your position. I do not feel that either one of us would allow the improper use of a gun at the expense of an arm and both of us have been around long enough to at least identify when there is extreme abuse. And both of us would stop it if we could..

Good article

[Mark H]

In high school, it's a relearn. Relearns are always tougher and the old ruts in the road stay there for a long time trying to suck you back in. Better to learn to use your body optimally from the first. HS's not too late but it's hard for at least two reasons. One I mention above and two is the pressure to perform. The athlete who decides to re-tool the swing or throwing motion at that age will face a lot more pressure to produce right now or sit down than the pre-teen. This makes it tough to go through the learning curve and just won't be worth it to a lot of kids.

Jake, no doubt in my mind you could and would handle the situation well.

[ctandc]

I love how everyone over analyzes everything..LOL

Saying that Radar Guns and Youth Baseball players don't belong together....is like saying no one should own a gun. Or anyone under 18 should every shoot one. LOL I guess CPS would be called since my 10 year old has his own 20ga...and I taught him how to shoot it so we could hunt together....

Now if I had just given him a shotgun and not shown him how to RESPONSIBLY use it, and since he only used when he's WITH ME, then maybe that's different?

I'll use PERSONAL Examples that I've experienced....

I've used radar guns with the 10 year old's I coach. I've used MOST effectively to stress a point I was trying to get across. We had a parent in the stands (who's kid does not even pitch LOL) with a radar gun. He was NOT visible to the kids or other parents. During the course of several games he gunned all our pitchers in game situations. His wife was next to him writing down type of pitch (FB or CU) and speed. And we charted that with their pitch count.

I tell you one thing....it proved the point I was trying to make to the other coaches, that EACH Kid has THEIR OWN point where their BODY'S are TIRED and their delivery, and thus their SPEED has suffered because of it. I said EACH and DIFFERENT. A radar gun is VERY effective for that if the kids aren't FOCUSED on it.

I want to see a Coach be able to tell when a kid's FB has slowed by 4-5 mph on average...w/o a radar gun.


Now the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum....the 'true' horror story. Parent of a kid I used to coach. He buys his kid radar gun for christmas. They take it out on Christmas Day, 30 degree weather, toss for a few minutes then he starts throwing as HARD AS HE CAN with his Dad to see how fast he is. He didn't get hurt...but I wouldn't advise doing what they did. That's my OPINION.

A tool is ONLY as effective as it's USER makes it. Some people look at a firearm only as a tool designed to kill / hurt people. So it's useless to them.

I can take the same 'useless' tool and use it for several weeks once a year and have venison for my family to eat until the next hunting season.


Different Strokes for Different Folks...