K.C. A's - why did Finley almost move to Dallas?

[DTF955]

My apologies if there's a Kansas City Athletics board I didnt' see, but I was curious, why did Charlie Finley almost move his team to Dallas? Did he want it just as a stopgap - like he did Louisville with a 2-year contract later? Was he looking at going to Oakland eventually, even if he moved to Dallas - and if so, why Oakland? Theyddidnt' have the Collisseum till 1968, I don't think; could have been '67. If another city offered him a long-term lease (not that anyone would trust him after a while) would he have taken and honored it instead?

[VIBaseball]

This book is probably the best source:

http://www.amazon.com/Kansas-City-Athletics-Baseball-1954-1967/dp/0786416106

Here's an excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews:

"Peterson also discusses in depth the movement of the Athletics from Kansas City to Oakland. Throughout his ownership of the A's in Kansas City Finley constantly tried to move them elsewhere. Additionally, Finley was always duplicitous about his commitment to Kansas City. Rumors circulated every year that Finley was moving the team, first to Dallas, then to Seattle, then to San Diego, then to "who knows where." Finley always publicly denied these rumors, all the while he was negotiating to move the team first to Dallas, then to Seattle, then to San Diego, then to "who knows where." By the time of the departure of Finley's A's, few mourned the loss. Missouri Senator Stuart Symington summed up the position of most Missourians about this move, "Oakland is the luckiest city since Hiroshima." Peterson has a whole chapter with this title and it gives a blow by blow account of the move."

[anna]

This book is probably the best source:

http://www.amazon.com/Kansas-City-Athletics-Baseball-1954-1967/dp/0786416106

Here's an excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews:

"Peterson also discusses in depth the movement of the Athletics from Kansas City to Oakland. Throughout his ownership of the A's in Kansas City Finley constantly tried to move them elsewhere. Additionally, Finley was always duplicitous about his commitment to Kansas City. Rumors circulated every year that Finley was moving the team, first to Dallas, then to Seattle, then to San Diego, then to "who knows where." Finley always publicly denied these rumors, all the while he was negotiating to move the team first to Dallas, then to Seattle, then to San Diego, then to "who knows where." By the time of the departure of Finley's A's, few mourned the loss. Missouri Senator Stuart Symington summed up the position of most Missourians about this move, "Oakland is the luckiest city since Hiroshima." Peterson has a whole chapter with this title and it gives a blow by blow account of the move."

I understand Finley resented the preferential treatment that the AFL Kansas City Chiefs got when leasing the stadium in Kansas City! The stadium owners in Kansas City were apparently not baseball fans..

[mandrake]

maybe because the Chiefs won three AFL titles, went to two superbowls,
and destroyed the Chicago bears in their first preseaon game vs the NFL, 66-24. The A's just stunk up the joint, and served as a farm team to the NY Yankees.

[skeletor]

My apologies if there's a Kansas City Athletics board I didnt' see, but I was curious, why did Charlie Finley almost move his team to Dallas? Did he want it just as a stopgap - like he did Louisville with a 2-year contract later? Was he looking at going to Oakland eventually, even if he moved to Dallas - and if so, why Oakland? Theyddidnt' have the Collisseum till 1968, I don't think; could have been '67. If another city offered him a long-term lease (not that anyone would trust him after a while) would he have taken and honored it instead?

Charles Finley, who bought the club from the arnold estate..never could master the fine art of being friendly to anyone...unless he wanted
something, and even then..it was so jaded...not only cities loathe him,
his clubs hated him..including the coaching staff..and he once called
Bowie Kuhn, the commish, the VILLAGE IDIOT....

at one point, he wanted to move the A's to Chicago, especially when the
WHITE SOX were making ugly noises of going to Seattle or Tampa..

he was always looking for another city to move to...a true baseball nomad, or
carpetbagger...i wonder if Oakland ever regrets shacking up with him...

[Aa3rt]

at one point, he wanted to move the A's to Chicago, especially when the WHITE SOX were making ugly noises of going to Seattle or Tampa..

he was always looking for another city to move to...a true baseball nomad, or
carpetbagger...i wonder if Oakland ever regrets shacking up with him...

IF I remember correctly (and it's been a lot of years since I read it) Bill Veeck detailed this in his book "Veeck, As In Wreck". This was the updated version after Veeck purchased the White Sox for a second time.

The city of Seattle had brought a lawsuit against the American League after the Seattle Pilots were allowed to move to Milwaukee after the 1969 season.

As skeletor has already mentioned, the White Sox were looking to move-Finley was pushing for the White Sox to move to Seattle, nullifying the lawsuit, then he planned to move the Athletics to Chicago to be close to his home and insurance business. That plan was foiled in 1976 when the American League expanded to 14 teams for the 1977 season with new franchises in Seattle & Toronto.

[hartman74]

I think the potential move involving Oakland, Seattle and Chicago was something like this in 1975.

Charlie Finley moves the Oakland A's to Chicago. They become the White Sox.
John Allyn moves the White Sox to Seattle.

Allyn owned the White Sox between Bill Veeck's White Sox years.
When Veeck got control of the White Sox in late 1975 he saved the team from moving to Seattle.

[KCGHOST]

The most insane idea Finleyhad after he was shot down on a few move attempts was the idea of building a stadium in Peculiar, Missouri, a rural outpost south of KC a good ways. Of course, the name Peculiar A's would have fit Finley to a "T".

[DTF955]

The most insane idea Finleyhad after he was shot down on a few move attempts was the idea of building a stadium in Peculiar, Missouri, a rural outpost south of KC a good ways. Of course, the name Peculiar A's would have fit Finley to a "T".

Oh, man, that *is* insane.

I wonder if - had the PIlots not moved - he might have tried to move the A's to Chicago in 1970, with Selig buying the Whit eSox. Sounds like the fellow would have done pretty much anything if it suited him at the present moment.

That might be mroe a scenario for if the A.L. doesn't let them move in 1967, though - I can understand their finally giving in, but it seems that if they put up with his requests for 5 years, they could have a little longer.

Of course, they might also have thought, "We don't want to subject the 2nd largest city in the U.S. to this man; we want to attract fans to Chicago."

[PlayJay]

If one word in the English Language described Charles Oscar Finley best, it would be 'reprehensible'.

If you made a menagerie and filled it with plaques and momentos of the more interesting clowns and fools and criminals who've owned major league baseball clubs in the 20th century, Charlie Finley would stand out. His reign of terror lasted twenty years...

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have read that Finley threatened one year to move the A's to Louisville. He even signed a lease on the Louisville ballpark. The AL wouldn't let him move.

Had Finley moved to Dallas, the A's would be one of the most solid franchises in baseball right now. They are weakened by having to share the Bay Area with the Giants, who come from the dominant city in the Bay Area

[PlayJay]

Wow. If Finley HAD moved to Dallas, it might've been interesting to see how he got along with the Dallas media. As it is, the Skip Baylesses of the world all seem to think that they're more important than the game, or the fans. And, Finley with his quirks, and his antics...

He might've wound up selling out much earlier... :highfive:

[THE OX]

I remember a little "poem" about the subject of franchise moves from back in the early-to-mid 1960s. I may have seen it either in The Sporting News or Baseball Digest.....

Tigers, Tigers, burning bright
In the ballparks of the night
Soon the fans will get their fill
And move the team to Louisville

I'm sure that was a "shot" at Charlie Finley's Louisville plans at the time.

[Calif_Eagle]

...Sounds like the fellow (Finley) would have done pretty much anything if it suited him at the present moment....

I think that the quote above sums up Charlie Finley as well as anyone ever has, or ever will. :clapping

[Iron Jaw]

maybe because the Chiefs won three AFL titles, went to two superbowls,
and destroyed the Chicago bears in their first preseaon game vs the NFL, 66-24. The A's just stunk up the joint, and served as a farm team to the NY Yankees.

The Vikings must have been awful in 1966. The Broncos played them in the first-ever, AFL-NFL pre-season meeting and also beat the Vikes. Granted, pre-season and all, but for the AFL it was a big deal. And the Broncos of the 60's were absolutely nothing like the franchise we've come to know from 1973 onward. They were at the bottom of the AFL for most of the 60's.

Anway, while the A's didn't do very well in KC, never having a record over .500, they did manage to build up a heck of a farm system and recruit some excellent prospects. The same prospects that would win world championships for them in the early 70's. It took time, in the pre-free agency floodgate days. Funny thing - the first year out of KC, the A's finally shot over .500 in 1968. Then contended for the AL West in 1969 - the first year of divisional play.

[Iron Jaw]

The most insane idea Finleyhad after he was shot down on a few move attempts was the idea of building a stadium in Peculiar, Missouri, a rural outpost south of KC a good ways. Of course, the name Peculiar A's would have fit Finley to a "T".

My first elementary school (1st grade) was in Peculiar, MO. 1961. I was a mere five. My older brother, sister and I attended the school for about two months before moving to the metropolis of Belton. Later that school year, we moved to Denver and finally settled down.

And to think - I could have gone to the stadium in Peculiar. :dance

[Milwaukee T]

During the pit stop in Kansas City; Milwaukee was trying to bring any team to town. At one point there was an agreement to take the White Sox there. That was the opening for the Athletics moving to Chicago. Once the AL shot that down; then other plans were put into motion only to stall out. The little guy seemed to always be in the ear of folks trying to move the White Sox all over the country because he wanted Chicago.

The part that always made me scratch my head is why he never was willing to go to Milwaukee. The Selig group wanted baseball there, but did they want the control which might have killed that idea?

Of all the locations that were talked about; the wildest to move was always the idea of New Orleans. Why there? Was it a legit idea or just the showman in him coming out?

[six4three]

I don't know about the Chicago A's thing. That might have been the only way the American League would have let Selig buy the team, since they weren't willing to cede Chicago to the National League the way they did New York (which is the only reason the White Sox don't play 90 miles north to this day). Still, the schene seems doubtful and overly complicated.

As to why Selig didn't chase Finley's nomads, after his bad experiences with the Chicago-based ownership of the Braves, I don't think Selig would be interested in another owner focused on the short-term bottom line with no ties to the community.

[PACrdfn]

I was reading the book by Terry Frei about the 77 Broncos, and it talked about how the A's almost went to Denver as well. After that was thwarted, I read something about how Eddie Debartolo(I think Jr, but I am not sure) wanted to buy the White Sox and move them to Denver, but Bowie Kuhn thwarted that.

[aqib]

They are weakened by having to share the Bay Area with the Giants, who come from the dominant city in the Bay Area

It wasn't too long ago that it was the other way and the Giants were almost the Tampa Bay Giants.

[Tampa Bay Giants]

It wasn't too long ago that it was the other way and the Giants were almost the Tampa Bay Giants.

Don't get me started on that topic. :grouchy:

[aqib]

Don't get me started on that topic. :grouchy:


No offense but I would like to read/hear your take on it...

[Tampa Bay Giants]

No offense but I would like to read/hear your take on it...

I could go on and on about it for hours, but to boil it down to the bare bones, I lay the entire blame for the Giants not moving to Tampa Bay (St. Petersburg) and the next 15 years (1992-2007) of the ineptitude of the (Devil)Rays and the fan base having the "who cares" attitude on then National League president, Bill White.

1. Being an ex-NY & SF Giant, he had a vested interest in the situation and he should have excused himself from the situation.

2. He would not allow the teams owner, Bob Laurie, to deal directly with the Tampa Bay group directly. He only allowed information to flow through him to each side.

3. He allowed groups in San Fransisco to delay after delay until they could get offers together.

4. He took the vote on the move from SF to TB off the table at the MLB owners meetings that fall in St. Louis, allowing another dely for SF to get their money together.

5. He made it clear that the NL will accept an offer from the people in San Francisco and then the league will have to decide what they will do with that offer. He was being both the judge and the prosecutor. It had to be a decision reached by baseball owners for whatever reasons. He was the person to execute it because they had just fired the commissioner and had no one else to do it. White thrust himself into the role of seller and buyer. In real estate, that would be unethical; on Wall Street, that would mean jail for insider trading.

6. For reasons that may never be made public, baseball's Ownership Committee expressed concern with the background of two members of Tampa Bay's ownership group, Vincent Tirendi and Vincent Piazza. (Mike Piazza's father.) Vince Naimoli was directed to disassociate himself from the two if he wanted to be approved. Tirendi and Piazza later sued to have their name cleared and in a court of law, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

*Disclaimer* IIRC, I think they said that they had ties to "The Mob". But my thinking on that is kinda fuzzy. And as I said, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

7. White directed Bob Lurie to release the Giants' financial records to George Shinn for his review. This was another interested investor in moving the Giants to Charlotte. He was further muddying up the waters for the TB investors.

8. Peter Magowan announced to the press a deal to purchase the San Francisco Giants for $95-million offer for the Giants to the National League -- $95-million, $20-million less than the Tampa Bay group promised in its August 6 contract.

9. Another extension was granted for San Francisco. Bill White told the St. Petersburg Times that the SF group had given them a proposal and they were told that those alterations included increasing the bid to at least $100-million.

10. When it came time to face the press in Scottsdale at the MLB owner's meeting, and make the inevitable announcement, Bill White, Fred Kuhlmann and Milwaukee Brewers owner Bud Selig -- the acting commissioner -- were sent out to face the press.
Tampa Tribune sportswriter Joe Henderson, who covered the Scottsdale meeting, summed up his feelings of the National League's final press conference on the Tampa Bay bid to buy the Giants.
"I could have sworn Bill White looked directly at me and smirked," Henderson wrote.

It didn't matter that Candlestick Park was the worst place to play ball in North America.
It didn't matter that San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium.
It didn't matter that attendance at Giants home games was pitiful for a market the size of the San Francisco Bay area.
It didn't matter that polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.
It didn't matter if the Giants played in the NL East or the NL West.
It didn't matter that Tampa Bay businessmen were offering $15-million more for the Giants than the bid tendered by San Francisco businessmen.
It didn't matter that new Tampa Bay investors came forward with cash to replace Bob Lurie's $10-million loan to the group increasing the gap between the offers to $25-million.

I feel as passionate about the Giants not moving to St. Petersburg as the Brooklynites do about the Dodgers moving to Los Angeles.

If the Giants had moved to St. Pete, and taken Will Clark, Willie Mays, Gaylord Perry, Mel Ott, Christy Matthewson and John McGraw with them, there would have been roots, a history, something to fall back on. But instead, we got Bubba Trammell, Mike Difelice, Jose Canseco, Kenny Kelly and Larry Rothschild.

A lot of this was taken from the book Stadium For Rent (http://www.stadiumforrent.com/) as I didn't want to re-type it again.

[Ralph Zig Tyko]

I could go on and on about it for hours, but to boil it down to the bare bones, I lay the entire blame for the Giants not moving to Tampa Bay (St. Petersburg) and the next 15 years (1992-2007) of the ineptitude of the (Devil)Rays and the fan base having the "who cares" attitude on then National League president, Bill White.

1. Being an ex-NY & SF Giant, he had a vested interest in the situation and he should have excused himself from the situation.

2. He would not allow the teams owner, Bob Laurie, to deal directly with the Tampa Bay group directly. He only allowed information to flow through him to each side.

3. He allowed groups in San Fransisco to delay after delay until they could get offers together.

4. He took the vote on the move from SF to TB off the table at the MLB owners meetings that fall in St. Louis, allowing another dely for SF to get their money together.

5. He made it clear that the NL will accept an offer from the people in San Francisco and then the league will have to decide what they will do with that offer. He was being both the judge and the prosecutor. It had to be a decision reached by baseball owners for whatever reasons. He was the person to execute it because they had just fired the commissioner and had no one else to do it. White thrust himself into the role of seller and buyer. In real estate, that would be unethical; on Wall Street, that would mean jail for insider trading.

6. For reasons that may never be made public, baseball's Ownership Committee expressed concern with the background of two members of Tampa Bay's ownership group, Vincent Tirendi and Vincent Piazza. (Mike Piazza's father.) Vince Naimoli was directed to disassociate himself from the two if he wanted to be approved. Tirendi and Piazza later sued to have their name cleared and in a court of law, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

*Disclaimer* IIRC, I think they said that they had ties to "The Mob". But my thinking on that is kinda fuzzy. And as I said, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

7. White directed Bob Lurie to release the Giants' financial records to George Shinn for his review. This was another interested investor in moving the Giants to Charlotte. He was further muddying up the waters for the TB investors.

8. Peter Magowan announced to the press a deal to purchase the San Francisco Giants for $95-million offer for the Giants to the National League -- $95-million, $20-million less than the Tampa Bay group promised in its August 6 contract.

9. Another extension was granted for San Francisco. Bill White told the St. Petersburg Times that the SF group had given them a proposal and they were told that those alterations included increasing the bid to at least $100-million.

10. When it came time to face the press in Scottsdale at the MLB owner's meeting, and make the inevitable announcement, Bill White, Fred Kuhlmann and Milwaukee Brewers owner Bud Selig -- the acting commissioner -- were sent out to face the press.
Tampa Tribune sportswriter Joe Henderson, who covered the Scottsdale meeting, summed up his feelings of the National League's final press conference on the Tampa Bay bid to buy the Giants.
"I could have sworn Bill White looked directly at me and smirked," Henderson wrote.

It didn't matter that Candlestick Park was the worst place to play ball in North America.
It didn't matter that San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium.
It didn't matter that attendance at Giants home games was pitiful for a market the size of the San Francisco Bay area.
It didn't matter that polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.
It didn't matter if the Giants played in the NL East or the NL West.
It didn't matter that Tampa Bay businessmen were offering $15-million more for the Giants than the bid tendered by San Francisco businessmen.
It didn't matter that new Tampa Bay investors came forward with cash to replace Bob Lurie's $10-million loan to the group increasing the gap between the offers to $25-million.

I feel as passionate about the Giants not moving to St. Petersburg as the Brooklynites do about the Dodgers moving to Los Angeles.

If the Giants had moved to St. Pete, and taken Will Clark, Willie Mays, Gaylord Perry, Mel Ott, Christy Matthewson and John McGraw with them, there would have been roots, a history, something to fall back on. But instead, we got Bubba Trammell, Mike Difelice, Jose Canseco, Kenny Kelly and Larry Rothschild.

A lot of this was taken from the book Stadium For Rent (http://www.stadiumforrent.com/) as I didn't want to re-type it again.
Bill White was sticking it to St. Pete/Tampa for their treatment of Blacks in spring training, well into the '60s. Basically he said, "IN YOUR FACE, CRACKERS."

[HDH]

In 1964, Charlie O tried to move the A's first to Louisville, KY then to Atlanta, GA. Finally, AL President, Joe Cronin, made him re-sign his lease in Kansas City. I never heard about all the other cities.

[DTF955]

In 1964, Charlie O tried to move the A's first to Louisville, KY then to Atlanta, GA. Finally, AL President, Joe Cronin, made him re-sign his lease in Kansas City. I never heard about all the other cities.

How quickly would Finley have worn out his welcome in ta more conservative Atlanta? And, where would the Braves have gone? The 2nd question, perhaps is better to ask in the Boston/Milwaukee Braves forum, I guess.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I could go on and on about it for hours, but to boil it down to the bare bones, I lay the entire blame for the Giants not moving to Tampa Bay (St. Petersburg) and the next 15 years (1992-2007) of the ineptitude of the (Devil)Rays and the fan base having the "who cares" attitude on then National League president, Bill White.

1. Being an ex-NY & SF Giant, he had a vested interest in the situation and he should have excused himself from the situation.

2. He would not allow the teams owner, Bob Laurie, to deal directly with the Tampa Bay group directly. He only allowed information to flow through him to each side.

3. He allowed groups in San Fransisco to delay after delay until they could get offers together.

4. He took the vote on the move from SF to TB off the table at the MLB owners meetings that fall in St. Louis, allowing another dely for SF to get their money together.

5. He made it clear that the NL will accept an offer from the people in San Francisco and then the league will have to decide what they will do with that offer. He was being both the judge and the prosecutor. It had to be a decision reached by baseball owners for whatever reasons. He was the person to execute it because they had just fired the commissioner and had no one else to do it. White thrust himself into the role of seller and buyer. In real estate, that would be unethical; on Wall Street, that would mean jail for insider trading.

6. For reasons that may never be made public, baseball's Ownership Committee expressed concern with the background of two members of Tampa Bay's ownership group, Vincent Tirendi and Vincent Piazza. (Mike Piazza's father.) Vince Naimoli was directed to disassociate himself from the two if he wanted to be approved. Tirendi and Piazza later sued to have their name cleared and in a court of law, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

*Disclaimer* IIRC, I think they said that they had ties to "The Mob". But my thinking on that is kinda fuzzy. And as I said, they were cleared of any wrong doing.

7. White directed Bob Lurie to release the Giants' financial records to George Shinn for his review. This was another interested investor in moving the Giants to Charlotte. He was further muddying up the waters for the TB investors.

8. Peter Magowan announced to the press a deal to purchase the San Francisco Giants for $95-million offer for the Giants to the National League -- $95-million, $20-million less than the Tampa Bay group promised in its August 6 contract.

9. Another extension was granted for San Francisco. Bill White told the St. Petersburg Times that the SF group had given them a proposal and they were told that those alterations included increasing the bid to at least $100-million.

10. When it came time to face the press in Scottsdale at the MLB owner's meeting, and make the inevitable announcement, Bill White, Fred Kuhlmann and Milwaukee Brewers owner Bud Selig -- the acting commissioner -- were sent out to face the press.
Tampa Tribune sportswriter Joe Henderson, who covered the Scottsdale meeting, summed up his feelings of the National League's final press conference on the Tampa Bay bid to buy the Giants.
"I could have sworn Bill White looked directly at me and smirked," Henderson wrote.

It didn't matter that Candlestick Park was the worst place to play ball in North America.
It didn't matter that San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium.
It didn't matter that attendance at Giants home games was pitiful for a market the size of the San Francisco Bay area.
It didn't matter that polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.
It didn't matter if the Giants played in the NL East or the NL West.
It didn't matter that Tampa Bay businessmen were offering $15-million more for the Giants than the bid tendered by San Francisco businessmen.
It didn't matter that new Tampa Bay investors came forward with cash to replace Bob Lurie's $10-million loan to the group increasing the gap between the offers to $25-million.

I feel as passionate about the Giants not moving to St. Petersburg as the Brooklynites do about the Dodgers moving to Los Angeles.

If the Giants had moved to St. Pete, and taken Will Clark, Willie Mays, Gaylord Perry, Mel Ott, Christy Matthewson and John McGraw with them, there would have been roots, a history, something to fall back on. But instead, we got Bubba Trammell, Mike Difelice, Jose Canseco, Kenny Kelly and Larry Rothschild.

A lot of this was taken from the book Stadium For Rent (http://www.stadiumforrent.com/) as I didn't want to re-type it again.

I'm a former Tampa Bay area resident, now living in Vero Beach (1/2 way between Miami and Tampa/St. Petersburg). I've read the book you quote; it came out before the Devil Rays were even an idea.

There were two bottom lines to the deal that kept the Giants from moving to Tampa Bay. One was Wayne Huizenga, who, apparently, wanted a monopoly on MLB in Florida; he worked behind the scenes to ensure that Tampa Bay did not receive a franchise. The other (and more important) bottom line was the issue of TV. The TV industry let MLB know that they did not look with favor upon transferring the Giants from the 4th largest TV market in America to the 13th largest.

[Tampa Bay Giants]

I'm a former Tampa Bay area resident, now living in Vero Beach (1/2 way between Miami and Tampa/St. Petersburg). I've read the book you quote; it came out before the Devil Rays were even an idea.

There were two bottom lines to the deal that kept the Giants from moving to Tampa Bay. One was Wayne Huizenga, who, apparently, wanted a monopoly on MLB in Florida; he worked behind the scenes to ensure that Tampa Bay did not receive a franchise. The other (and more important) bottom line was the issue of TV. The TV industry let MLB know that they did not look with favor upon transferring the Giants from the 4th largest TV market in America to the 13th largest.

Huizenga openly voted for Tampa Bay to receive a franchise, but worked enough owners to ensure that the T-SP area did not get a franchise.

If you remember, when TB was shut out again, people in the TB area formed a protest boycotting Blockbuster Video because of Huizinga's actions.

And, the west coast teams did not want another team in the east and hence, earlier start times.

But, *I* place the blame on Bill White because the buck stopped with him.

[SDL]

Huizenga openly voted for Tampa Bay to receive a franchise, but worked enough owners to ensure that the T-SP area did not get a franchise.

If you remember, when TB was shut out again, people in the TB area formed a protest boycotting Blockbuster Video because of Huizinga's actions.

And, the west coast teams did not want another team in the east and hence, earlier start times.

But, *I* place the blame on Bill White because the buck stopped with him.


No secret that Old Baldy pulled that. If the Panthers had came into the NHL first, he would have tried to block the Lightning from being born. The Bucs and Jags never would have came into existence if he was in charge of the Dolphins back then...you can bet the same about the Magic if the NBA circumstances were right.

His Woyal Highness (his initials) is hated in S. Florida. A lot of Dolphin fans I know are glad he's getting out...they've had enough of him.

He played the "i'm moving if I don't get a new place to play" card a few times...it worked with the Panthers.

[Uncle Charlie]

It didn't matter that Candlestick Park was the worst place to play ball in North America.
It didn't matter that San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium.
It didn't matter that attendance at Giants home games was pitiful for a market the size of the San Francisco Bay area.
It didn't matter that polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.
It didn't matter if the Giants played in the NL East or the NL West.
It didn't matter that Tampa Bay businessmen were offering $15-million more for the Giants than the bid tendered by San Francisco businessmen.
It didn't matter that new Tampa Bay investors came forward with cash to replace Bob Lurie's $10-million loan to the group increasing the gap between the offers to $25-million.

I feel as passionate about the Giants not moving to St. Petersburg as the Brooklynites do about the Dodgers moving to Los Angeles.

If the Giants had moved to St. Pete, and taken Will Clark, Willie Mays, Gaylord Perry, Mel Ott, Christy Matthewson and John McGraw with them, there would have been roots, a history, something to fall back on. But instead, we got Bubba Trammell, Mike Difelice, Jose Canseco, Kenny Kelly and Larry Rothschild.With all due respect, I think the Giants moving would've been extremely unfair to San Francisco and their fans who had supported their team for decades. I think events since then have vindicated the Giants' staying put instead of moving to Tampa Bay. They have a great ballpark built entirely without public funds, and good attendance despite a losing team.

I understand why you'd be so anxious to get a team, but I personally wouldn't want to receive a team by robbing another city of a team, especially one they'd supported for decades. I'd much prefer to receive an expansion team or a team without much prior tradition or history, because that's much more a team that your city could truly call your own. I don't see how you could say that a Tampa Bay Giants team would've had a history to fall back on, because that history would've been history that Tampa Bay didn't experience, and claiming that history as your own would IMO be tantamount to stealing. I also think that taking another city's team lessens the civic pride associated with a team, which is an important aspect in sports fandom.

A lot of my opinion on this comes from the Sonics' moving to Oklahoma City. I understand OKC's desire for a team; what I don't like is the greed and short-sightedness to rob another city of it's team and tradition solely because your city has a shiny new place and badly wants a team. Patience in sports can be hard, but I think it's ultimately worth it as a fan. It may have been hard to watch the Rays until 2008, but look how it paid off. Same with the Mariners before 1995.

[guidotoons]

Hi everyone...new guy here.

Interesting Charlie Finley story...

In 1986 I toyed around with the idea of doing a documentary about the Kansas City A's. I contacted several players still in the KC area... Dave Wickersham and Lew Krausse among others, as well as Moe Drabowsky, living in Chicago at the time.

Moe was a hoot (naturally) and he asked if I was planning on contacting Charlie. I told him I wanted to but was just beginning to track players down and had no contact number for him. Moe was happy to oblige with Charlie's personal office number.

I called the number and was greeted by a woman who, once I introduced myself and why I was calling told me Charlie was "retired and does not give interviews".

I left my number in case he were to change his mind and thanked her for her time.

About 10-15 minutes later my phone rang. "Is this Joe Welsh?" the voice barked. I said yes and he said "this is Charlie Finley. What exactly do you want?".

I was shocked and stunned but proceeded to tell him that I wanted to do an on camera interview with him. He told me " I never wanted to stay in Kansas City. I never wanted to BE in Kansas City, and I couldn't wait to leave Kansas City, nor do I want to discuss it on film."

I thanked him for his time after he asked me if there was anything else.

Needless to say I never got to do the film (too expensive for my 1986 budget!) but Moe Drabowsky got a big laugh when I called to tell him about the call.

Drabowsky said "Oh, I knew he wouldn't talk with you! I just wanted to rile him up a bit!".

Any way... that is what I know about Charlie O. and Kansas City.

Cool forum!

Go Sox!

Joe 'Guido' Welsh

p.s.

I have a few great A's and Royals related stories if anyone is interested!

[Tampa Bay Giants]

With all due respect, I think the Giants moving would've been extremely unfair to San Francisco and their fans who had supported their team for decades.

I must disagree with your statement that S.F. supported their team for decades.

Between 1968 and 1979, the Giants only topped the 1mil attendance mark 3 times and in 1974-1975-1976, the Giants were last in attendance those three years in a row.

San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium and polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.

I don't see how you could say that a Tampa Bay Giants team would've had a history to fall back on, because that history would've been history that Tampa Bay didn't experience, and claiming that history as your own would IMO be tantamount to stealing. I also think that taking another city's team lessens the civic pride associated with a team, which is an important aspect in sports fandom.

Please, please do not use that logic with Dodger fans that they can not fall back on their Brooklyn roots. There would be a riot in here. LOL

Using your logic, the S.F. Giants should not claim:
N.L. Pennants won in : 1954 • 1951 • 1937 1936 • 1933 • 1924 • 1923 • 1922 • 1921 • 1917 • 1913 • 1912 • 1911 • 1905 • 1904 • 1889 & 1888 and

World Series Championships in : 1954 • 1933 • 1922 • 1921 • 1905 • 1894 • 1889 & 1888

They should take down the retired numbers of:
Bill Terry
Mel Ott
Carl Hubbell
John McGraw*
Christy Mathewson

And, they cannot claim these as HoFers: (N.Y. Giants cap on their plaques.)
Hubbell, Carl
Ewing, Buck
Davis, George
Jackson, Travis
Keefe, Tim
Kelly, George
Lindstrom, Freddie
Marquard, Rube
Mathewson, Christy
McGinnity, Joe
McGraw, John
O'Rourke, Jim
Ott, Mel
Rusie, Amos
Terry, Bill
Ward, John
Welch, Mickey
Youngs, Ross

As all of this history was made in New York, not in San Fransisco.

That history in NYC would've been history that San Fransisco didn't experience.

That being using your logic.

It was OK for the S.F. Giants to use the N.Y. Giants history, but it is not OK if they would have moved to Tampa Bay?

Much like the Phila-KC-Oakland A's and their history.

[Uncle Charlie]

I must disagree with your statement that S.F. supported their team for decades.

Between 1968 and 1979, the Giants only topped the 1mil attendance mark 3 times and in 1974-1975-1976, the Giants were last in attendance those three years in a row.

San Francisco Bay area taxpayers refused on four consecutive ballots to pay for a new stadium and polls showed that less than 50 percent of San Francisco residents cared if the team left.I'm guessing the ballpark they played in was a big reason for the low attendance. Now the Giants play in a great ballpark which was constructed with no public funds, and have consistently good attendance despite a bad team, so I think history has vindicated their decision to stay.Please, please do not use that logic with Dodger fans that they can not fall back on their Brooklyn roots. There would be a riot in here. LOL

Using your logic, the S.F. Giants should not claim:
N.L. Pennants won in : 1954 • 1951 • 1937 1936 • 1933 • 1924 • 1923 • 1922 • 1921 • 1917 • 1913 • 1912 • 1911 • 1905 • 1904 • 1889 & 1888 and

World Series Championships in : 1954 • 1933 • 1922 • 1921 • 1905 • 1894 • 1889 & 1888

They should take down the retired numbers of:
Bill Terry
Mel Ott
Carl Hubbell
John McGraw*
Christy Mathewson

And, they cannot claim these as HoFers: (N.Y. Giants cap on their plaques.)
Hubbell, Carl
Ewing, Buck
Davis, George
Jackson, Travis
Keefe, Tim
Kelly, George
Lindstrom, Freddie
Marquard, Rube
Mathewson, Christy
McGinnity, Joe
McGraw, John
O'Rourke, Jim
Ott, Mel
Rusie, Amos
Terry, Bill
Ward, John
Welch, Mickey
Youngs, Ross

As all of this history was made in New York, not in San Fransisco.

That history in NYC would've been history that San Fransisco didn't experience.

That being using your logic.

It was OK for the S.F. Giants to use the N.Y. Giants history, but it is not OK if they would have moved to Tampa Bay?

Much like the Phila-KC-Oakland A's and their history.I think the franchise can claim its history from another city as part of its own, but not the fans, for the reasons I mentioned previously. I understand this might be fighting words with some people, but I don't understand how L.A. or S.F. or Oakland fans can really claim their team's history in a previous city as their own when it wasn't their team.

Another reason I think the Giants moving to Tampa Bay would've been bad for baseball was that it would've probably severely damaged the Dodgers-Giants rivalry, which I think is the best in baseball.

[Tampa Bay Giants]

Hey, Uncle Charlie, we should have our own thread. :laugh:

Forgive me for hijacking the thread.

Now the Giants play in a great ballpark which was constructed with no public funds, and have consistently good attendance despite a bad team, so I think history has vindicated their decision to stay.

Yes, now it has. But PacBell Park wasn't opened for another 7 years after the proposed sale to Tampa Bay interests.

I think the franchise can claim its history from another city as part of its own, but not the fans, for the reasons I mentioned previously. I understand this might be fighting words with some people, but I don't understand how L.A. or S.F. or Oakland fans can really claim their team's history in a previous city as their own when it wasn't their team.

I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I can see it.

Another reason I think the Giants moving to Tampa Bay would've been bad for baseball was that it would've probably severely damaged the Dodgers-Giants rivalry, which I think is the best in baseball.

That it would....

[PACrdfn]

No secret that Old Baldy pulled that. If the Panthers had came into the NHL first, he would have tried to block the Lightning from being born. The Bucs and Jags never would have came into existence if he was in charge of the Dolphins back then...you can bet the same about the Magic if the NBA circumstances were right.

His Woyal Highness (his initials) is hated in S. Florida. A lot of Dolphin fans I know are glad he's getting out...they've had enough of him.

He played the "i'm moving if I don't get a new place to play" card a few times...it worked with the Panthers.

I hated that guy. It still hurts that, in 1996, my Pens lost to that Florida team with that jerk throwing rats on the ice.

But, here is something that I was thinking about in regards to the Giants moving: Why didn't they think about moving back to New York, with them and the Mets changing places? Have the Giants move into Shea(which is what they could have done in the 60's if they would have stayed) and have the Mets move to SF and re-name them(like the Seals or something).

And, another thing with Finley: If they would have been able to build that stadium along Puget Sound in Seattle in the mid-60's, I wonder if he would have moved there.