Bonds' greenie test: "Good News" or "Bad" for baseball?

[Williamsburg2599]

I hate to create another Bond's thread, but after the recent release of Bond's positive test (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56131)for greenies. I must ask this question: Is this news, good or bad for baseball?IMO,:


The Good:Bonds is now guilty of taking some form of PEDs. No more speculation, no more "no he didn't, yes he did" talk. Bonds is guilty and the media and the fans will and already have come down hard on him. His shot at the HOF may be over, and as future players watch this happen to Bonds, it may make them think twice about using. And Aaron's record may now be safe for future generations to try for, hopefully PED free.


The Bad: Baseball is guilty again. Another positive test can't help it's image. It may not hurt ticket sales, but it sure as heck won't help.

[Skin & Bones]

Funny how there's now outrage about Amphetamines use, who according to some before, aren't PED'S.

Now all of a sudden, when Bonds tests positive for them, many are starting to realize the obvious performance enhancing benefits these drugs provide.

Aaron using Greenies = :)

Bonds using Greenies = :grouchy

[Sliding Billy]

Funny how there's now outrage about Amphetamines use, who according to some before, aren't PED'S.

Now all of a sudden, when Bonds tests positive for them, many are starting to realize the obvious performance enhancing benefits these drugs provide.

Aaron using Greenies = :)

Bonds using Greenies = :grouchy
Well, if it helps make people aware of the widespread use of illegal PED's before the steroid era, it's a good thing.

[cardsfanatic]

And Aaron's record may now be safe for future generations to try for, hopefully PED free.

?? Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, three of the top HR hitters the game has ever seen, are all admitted "greenie" users. So, how exactly does this ensure that Aaron's HR record will be PED free when he, himself, used the same stuff Bonds just tested positive for?

I'm far from a Bonds supporter or apologist. But greenies and their widespread use predate Bonds by three generations of ballplayers.

[SamtheBravesFan]

?? Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, three of the top HR hitters the game has ever seen, are all admitted "greenie" users. So, how exactly does this ensure that Aaron's HR record will be PED free when he, himself, used the same stuff Bonds just tested positive for?

I'm far from a Bonds supporter or apologist. But greenies and their widespread use predate Bonds by three generations of ballplayers.

So I guess the best solution is to have the scrutiny now. We can't do anything about the past, but we can do something about it now.

[Elvis]

I don't see how the further exposure of today's major leaguers as a group of drug-taking, back-stabbing, prima donna millionaires (and those who endlessly appologise for them) is anything but more bad news for the greatest and most beautifully perfect sport ever invented.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I don't see how the further exposure of today's major leaguers as a group of drug-taking, back-stabbing, prima donna millionaires (and those who endlessly appologise for them) is anything but more bad news for the greatest and most beautifully perfect sport ever invented.

*sigh* A few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch. Yes, Barry Bonds and Derek Jeter are grade-A back-stabbing jerks, but what about, say, John Smoltz? Or Todd Helton?

[Elvis]

*sigh* A few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch. Yes, Barry Bonds and Derek Jeter are grade-A back-stabbing jerks, but what about, say, John Smoltz? Or Todd Helton?

I'm not saying it spoils the whole bunch - only that the very public black eye on MLB isn't healing, it's getting worse. For a sport that has been steadily losing ground over the years to the other sports out there for kids to choose - it's not good news. For us, it may not matter, we're already in love with the game, but what about the coming generations?

[EvanAparra]

*sigh* A few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch. Yes, Barry Bonds and Derek Jeter are grade-A back-stabbing jerks, but what about, say, John Smoltz? Or Todd Helton?
Out of curiousty, why is Derek Jeter a back stabbing jerk?

[Appling]

So I guess the best solution is to have the scrutiny now. We can't do anything about the past, but we can do something about it now.
In the final analysis, I think this is all we can do. Unproven "suspicions" about use of PEDs -- and greenies -- should pass away in a few years. Hold persons accountable for tests they have taken and failed, but don't punish everyone for POSSIBLE use of illegal PED's in the past.

I think McGwire will enter the HOF after Barry Bonds does. Barry will unlock the door for the current generation of players who now play under suspicion.

[Brannu]

I'm not saying it spoils the whole bunch - only that the very public black eye on MLB isn't healing, it's getting worse. For a sport that has been steadily losing ground over the years to the other sports out there for kids to choose - it's not good news. For us, it may not matter, we're already in love with the game, but what about the coming generations?

The coming generations will be fine ... I assure you. The generation behind us that is currently growing into their adulthood are taking far worse drugs than what we did when I was a teenager. I don't believe that kids are going to look at certain players and their drug use and not desire to play the game. That's almost like saying, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin made people not want to be a rock and roll musician.

Players in past generations did drugs, drank ridiculous amounts of alcohol and on many levels, were much less professional than the players of today. That didn't stop generations after them from wanting to play and enjoy the game.

[Elvis]

The coming generations will be fine ... I assure you. The generation behind us that is currently growing into their adulthood are taking far worse drugs than what we did when I was a teenager. I don't believe that kids are going to look at certain players and their drug use and not desire to play the game. That's almost like saying, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin made people not want to be a rock and roll musician.

Players in past generations did drugs, drank ridiculous amounts of alcohol and on many levels, were much less professional than the players of today. That didn't stop generations after them from wanting to play and enjoy the game.

Drugs and rock and roll go together like politics and corruption. It's always been part of the fabric. "(Sex) drugs and rock and roll" is as well known a saying as there is in American culture, but "needles, uppers and baseball" is something new. I'm not talking about what's been going on in relative secrecy (baseball's dirty little secret) for a long time. I mean what the general public sees as the fabric of pro baseball has dramatically changed in the past 10 years, unlike say rock, which from its very beginings has been seen as taboo. Remember all those 50s protests and record burnings?

Anyway, I hope you're right.

[hudsonharden]

I guess my opinion of those who use greenies comes down to this: does the player USE them or ABUSE them? If a guy pops a few pills after the occasional long night out just to pep himself up a bit, I can forgive that. If a player can't get into the batter box without taking his pills and is abusing them, then it becomes a problem for me. I don't know for sure, and this is purely opinion/speculation, but I don't think Aaron or Mays "relied" on greenies for their production (I could be dead wrong), and I'm sure that there are players who are flat out addicted to them. Who is and is not an addict, when it comes to any substance, can be a fine line.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Funny how there's now outrage about Amphetamines use, who according to some before, aren't PED'S.

Now all of a sudden, when Bonds tests positive for them, many are starting to realize the obvious performance enhancing benefits these drugs provide.

Aaron using Greenies = :)

Bonds using Greenies = :grouchy


Not defending, not giving past players using greenies a free pass. It all comes down to this. How do you penalize a player either legally or in the our mind for using a substance that was not banned at that time.

If we can recall, this was also the defense for Barry and a valid one, if he used steroids before ban, so what.

The bottom line, this guy needs help. Fair or unfair, he is the guy that has been under the gun, the guy with the spotlight on him the last few years and ..... what does he do, use a substance that was just banned.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Everyone uses "Greenies" in every sport Schmidt admitted it, atleast he's man enough to do it, it's a 162 game season...come on.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Out of curiousty, why is Derek Jeter a back stabbing jerk?

I think he could have helped ARod just a little bit when everyone was wailing on him, but he didn't seem to, from what I saw. Maybe doesn't make him a back-stabber, but it is pretty jerky.

[Appling]

It is always BAD NEWS when someone breaks the rules.

If the rules are broken, it is GOOD that the offender is caught and punished -- but if it happens too often it is BAD NEWS: It becomes like the PROHIBITION laws of the 1920's: an unpopular law not well enforced is worse than no law at all. The only persons hurt are those honest, law-abiding persons who may lose a competitive edge because they won't cheat but can't compete with cheaters. So -- make no rules that you don't intend to test for and enforce. And don't make new rules retroactive to past performance.

[Zito75]

I don't know a lot about drugs, but are greenies the same as black widows?

[EvanAparra]

I think he could have helped ARod just a little bit when everyone was wailing on him, but he didn't seem to, from what I saw. Maybe doesn't make him a back-stabber, but it is pretty jerky.
I can agree with that.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I can agree with that.

Yay! :D Someone agrees with me! :clapping

[Mattingly]

I've edited the thread changing "Bonds" to "Bonds' greenie test", since this from the opening thread doesn't seem to be about Bonds' entire career and series of events, but about this test only.
?? Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, three of the top HR hitters the game has ever seen, are all admitted "greenie" users. So, how exactly does this ensure that Aaron's HR record will be PED free when he, himself, used the same stuff Bonds just tested positive for?

I'm far from a Bonds supporter or apologist. But greenies and their widespread use predate Bonds by three generations of ballplayers.
Same here. I'm waiting for the oversized 18-wheeler to come barging through the front wall, but instead, I get a little pickup truck honking its horn. Greenies have been around for ages, taken by many. Not something I consider worrisome.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I've edited the thread changing "Bonds" to "Bonds' greenie test", since this from the opening thread doesn't seem to be about Bonds' entire career and series of events, but about this test only.

Same here. I'm waiting for the oversized 18-wheeler to come barging through the front wall, but instead, I get a little pickup truck honking its horn. Greenies have been around for ages, taken by many. Not something I consider worrisome.

Again not a free pass for some who did or may have used greenies in the past, that has nothing to do with what took place with Bonds or any others using greenies after the ban 2006.

Isn't that the point we've seen on these boards regarding McGwire and Bonds some others have posted on this board. Some say so what if Mac, Barry or some others used steroids before the ban.

Again this guy has to be a fool, under the gun, under the spotlight the last few seasons with steroid allegations and in the first year amphetamines are banned he uses them and gets caught.

On top of that listen to his stories. He and his attorney claim if the substance he used was steroids he was unaware, he never "knowingly" used steroids. That covers that, how can it be held against him if he did not know what the substance was, same story from Sheffield and his attorney.

Now if this one is true suppossedly he got those greenies from a teammates locker, why even say that, true or not.

[Mattingly]

Again not a free pass for some who did or may have used greenies in the past, that has nothing to do with what took place with Bonds or any others using greenies after the ban 2006.

Isn't that the point we've seen on these boards regarding McGwire and Bonds some others have posted on this board. Some say so what if Mac, Barry or some others used steroids before the ban.

Again this guy has to be a fool, under the gun, under the spotlight the last few seasons with steroid allegations and in the first year amphetamines are banned he uses them and gets caught.

On top of that listen to his stories. He and his attorney claim if the substance he used was steroids he was unaware, he never "knowingly" used steroids. That covers that, how can it be held against him if he did not know what the substance was, same story from Sheffield and his attorney.

Now if this one is true suppossedly he got those greenies from a teammates locker, why even say that, true or not.
I would agree that if greenies were on the list of banned substances, then he, moreso than others, should've realized it wasn't the brightest idea to take them. Does that mean that he has taken any proven PEDs during this time? Not necessarily, but that only refers to those which have been identified, are traceable. For those either not identified and/or which can be traced, that's a different story.

If anything, that just reverts to what you're saying about "before the ban". So if someone uses a so-called "designer drug" before it's been officially banned? Is it then illegal?

I don't buy that "didn't knowingly use steroids" thing one bit either. I don't see how anyone can take something after someone says "Here, take it". If someone of his level doesn't ask "What's this?" then I don't know what to say. Ask any amateur bodybuilder to "just take this", and see what they'll say. Bonds has his own dieticians, his own trainers, does his own routine and he'll take something from his trainer w/o knowing what it is? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

To me, it's one of Barry's spins. In Barry's world, everyone is at fault other than himself. His trainer gave him the cream, the clear, his teammate gave him the greenies. But who hit the home runs? Oh, him of course, and he won't share honors with that. Yet the blame is always passed around.

He and his supporters can spin it anyway he wants to. I'm just waiting for when he gets caught using something a lot more potent, one that wasn't around when Aaron, Mays and Mantle played. Until then, this seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Does that mean that he has taken any proven PEDs during this time? Not necessarily, but that only refers to those which have been identified, are traceable. For those either not identified and/or which can be traced, that's a different story.

He and his supporters can spin it anyway he wants to. I'm just waiting for when he gets caught using something a lot more potent, one that wasn't around when Aaron, Mays and Mantle played. Until then, this seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

Don't know if we will ever hear the whole story about any who may have used steroids. MLB and the commisioner just wish the whole story would just go away, they probably know more than they care to say.

[cardsfanatic]

Again not a free pass for some who did or may have used greenies in the past, that has nothing to do with what took place with Bonds or any others using greenies after the ban 2006.

Isn't that the point we've seen on these boards regarding McGwire and Bonds some others have posted on this board. Some say so what if Mac, Barry or some others used steroids before the ban.

Again this guy has to be a fool, under the gun, under the spotlight the last few seasons with steroid allegations and in the first year amphetamines are banned he uses them and gets caught.

On top of that listen to his stories. He and his attorney claim if the substance he used was steroids he was unaware, he never "knowingly" used steroids. That covers that, how can it be held against him if he did not know what the substance was, same story from Sheffield and his attorney.

Now if this one is true suppossedly he got those greenies from a teammates locker, why even say that, true or not.

I agree with what you're saying. My post, which by proxy was responded to via Mattingly's quote of mine, wasn't intended to make it out that Bonds was forgiven for his positive test. My point was that if Aaron himself used greenies then how does Bonds taking greenies ensure the HR record won't be tainted by PED's?

Bonds should be held accountable for his test and he should be punished the way the MLB and MLBPA have laid out. If it's a suspension then let it end at that. I can't see any justification to punish him above and beyond that, however. By not letting him play again and all of the other things laid out in this thread. When guys like Aaron etc.. received no punishment.

Wow, two posts defending Bonds. Never thought that'd happen. :)

[jpenrod]

I agree with what you're saying. My post, which by proxy was responded to via Mattingly's quote of mine, wasn't intended to make it out that Bonds was forgiven for his positive test. My point was that if Aaron himself used greenies then how does Bonds taking greenies ensure the HR record won't be tainted by PED's?

Bonds should be held accountable for his test and he should be punished the way the MLB and MLBPA have laid out. If it's a suspension then let it end at that. I can't see any justification to punish him above and beyond that, however. By not letting him play again and all of the other things laid out in this thread. When guys like Aaron etc.. received no punishment.

Wow, two posts defending Bonds. Never thought that'd happen. :)

cards fan I did not respond the first time toyou comparison between Bonds using greenies and Aaron using greenies, but since you seem to continue to insist on stating the Aaron did use greenies I will now respond.

Where is you proof that Aaron did infact use greenies? I am not talking about your basic "greenie use was rampant during Aaron's playing days" I mean hard evidence that Aaron did use greenies.

To answer your question about how Bonds Amphetamine use effectsthe HR record I will say this, even if Aaron did not use greenies and Bonds did, that in and of itself would not bother. What bothers me is Bonds use of other substances in addition to the use of greenies. In addition to that what bothers me is Bonds total disrespect for the rules of the game. Even if Aaron did use greenies as you seem so certain he did, at the time it was not against the rules of the game nor was it illegal. I will acknowledge the fact that Bonds use of the cream and the clear came at a time that it was not against the rules of the game, but it was still illegal. Now you have Bonds testing positive for something that was against the rules of the game.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I agree with what you're saying. My post, which by proxy was responded to via Mattingly's quote of mine, wasn't intended to make it out that Bonds was forgiven for his positive test. My point was that if Aaron himself used greenies then how does Bonds taking greenies ensure the HR record won't be tainted by PED's?

Bonds should be held accountable for his test and he should be punished the way the MLB and MLBPA have laid out. If it's a suspension then let it end at that. I can't see any justification to punish him above and beyond that, however. By not letting him play again and all of the other things laid out in this thread. When guys like Aaron etc.. received no punishment.Wow, two posts defending Bonds. Never thought that'd happen. :)

Certainly not my line of thinking, no way should Barry be stopped from playing again.

[cardsfanatic]

cards fan I did not respond the first time toyou comparison between Bonds using greenies and Aaron using greenies, but since you seem to continue to insist on stating the Aaron did use greenies I will now respond.

Where is you proof that Aaron did infact use greenies? I am not talking about your basic "greenie use was rampant during Aaron's playing days" I mean hard evidence that Aaron did use greenies.

To answer your question about how Bonds Amphetamine use effectsthe HR record I will say this, even if Aaron did not use greenies and Bonds did, that in and of itself would not bother. What bothers me is Bonds use of other substances in addition to the use of greenies. In addition to that what bothers me is Bonds total disrespect for the rules of the game. Even if Aaron did use greenies as you seem so certain he did, at the time it was not against the rules of the game nor was it illegal. I will acknowledge the fact that Bonds use of the cream and the clear came at a time that it was not against the rules of the game, but it was still illegal. Now you have Bonds testing positive for something that was against the rules of the game.

Read "Ball Four" by Jim Bouton.

There is more than enough circumstancial evidence from both personal interviews of the players, personal admissions or eye witness accounts from teammates that the following players all used greenies -- and keep in mind, this isn't even the entire list, these are just ones we know a little about.

Dave Cash
Felix Millan
Pete Rose
Steve Garvey
George Brett
Al Oliver
Ralph Garr
Davey Lopes
George Scott
Rennie Stennett
Mickey Rivers
Willie Horton
Bucky Dent
Willie Montanez
Lenny Randle
Don Kessinger
Thurman Munson
Greg Luzinski
Reggie Jackson
Ken Reitz
Claudell Washington
Ken Singleton
Jeff Burroughs
Larry Bowa
Ted Simmons
Graig Nettles
Rick Burleson
Lee May
Jerry Morales
Rusty Staub
Jose Cardenal
Tim Foli
Jerry Remy
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Tito Fuentes
Deron Johnson
Jim Rice
Sal Bando
Chris Chambliss
Mike Schmidt
Ted Sizemore
George Hendrick
Dave Parker
Robin Yount
Roy White
John Mayberry
John Grubb
Buddy Bell
Ron LeFlore
Manny Trillo
Carl Yastrzemski
Jorge Orta
Derrel Thomas
Rod Carew
Larry Parrish
Del Unser
Johnny Bench
Bobby Bonds
Lou Brock
Fred Lynn
Bobby Murcer
Don Baylor
Bill North
Bobby Grich
Toby Harrah
Billy Williams
Mike Hargrove
Willie Davis
Pepe Mangual
Bill Madlock
Ken Henderson
Dave Chalk
Bill Melton
Tony Perez
Bert Campaneris
Dave Winfield
Von Joshua
Dave Concepcion
Aurelio Rodriguez
Bobby Tolan
Richie Zisk
Gary Carter
Gary Sutherland
Dave Kingman
Cesar Geronimo
Cesar Cedeno
Joe Morgan
Gene Tenace
Dusty Baker
Rick Monday
Sandy Alomar Sr.
Phil Garner
Chris Speier
Bob Watson
Freddie Patek
Greg Gross
Brooks Robinson
Frank Duffy
Manny Sanguillen
Rick Manning
Hal McRae
Reggie Smith
Jim Sundberg
Richie Hebner
Pat Kelly
Larvell Blanks
Dan Meyer
Amos Otis
Joe Rudi
Hank Aaron
Ken Griffey Sr.
George Foster
Marty Perez
Willie Stargell
Tommy Davis
Tony Oliva
Carlos May
Cesar Tovar
Steve Braun
Steve Yeager
Roger Metzger
Doug Rader
Pete Mackanin
Leon Roberts
Mike Jorgensen
Mark Belanger
Paul Blair
Lee Stanton
Dan Ford
Boog Powell
Sixto Lezcano
Bill Freehan
Garry Maddox
Gary Matthews
Brian Downing
Eric Soderholm
Dick Allen
Mike Phillips
Willie McCovey
Bake McBride
Jimmy Wynn
Dwight Evans
Darrell Porter
Bill Sharp
Cookie Rojas
Don Money
Tom Veryzer
Jim Spencer
Rico Petrocelli
Wilbur Howard
Barry Foote
Jerry Grote
Milt May
Jerry Terrell
Roy Howell
Rico Carty
Earl Williams
Frank Taveras
Mike Ivie
Bruce Bochte
Willie Crawford
Andre Thornton
Tom Grieve
Lyman Bostock
Mike Tyson
Mike Lum
Joe Torre
Rowland Office
Bobby Darwin
Danny Thompson
Tommy Harper
Jim Wohlford
Hector Torres
Glenn Borgmann
Jay Johnstone
Al Bumbry
Enos Cabell
Oscar Gamble
Larry Biittner
Duane Kuiper
Charlie Spikes
Enzo Hernandez
Cliff Johnson
John Briggs
Ben Oglivie
Al Cowens
Nyls Nyman
Gary Thomasson
Vic Correll
Steve Ontiveros
Denny Doyle
Ed Kranepool
Bernie Carbo
Dave Collins
Vada Pinson
Jose Cruz
Harmon Killebrew
Bruce Miller
Dave Duncan
Lee Lacy
Cecil Cooper
Frank White
Pedro Garcia
John Ellis
Morris Nettles
Dave Rader
Luis Melendez
Bob Boone
Bill Buckner
Johnny Oates
Doug Griffin
Fred Kendall
Rob Andrews
Wayne Garrett
John Lowenstein
Carlton Fisk
Kurt Bevacqua
Larry Hisle
Juan Beniquez
Alan Ashby
Steve Swisher
Fred Stanley
Bill Russell
Roy Smalley
Pete LaCock
Mike Anderson
Steve Brye
Charlie Moore
Gorman Thomas
Nate Colbert
Gene Locklear
Tony Solaita
Ron Fairly
Bobby Mitchell
Bob Bailey
Buck Martinez
Bill Stein
Ellie Rodriguez
Ted Kubiak
Mike Miley
Jim Mason
Bob Coluccio
Elrod Hendricks
John Milner
Jerry Hairston
Elliott Maddox
Jack Brohamer
Dan Driessen
Jim Dwyer
John Hale
Mike Hegan
Dave May
Gene Clines
Joe Ferguson
Rod Gilbreath
Bill Robinson
George Mitterwald
Ed Herrmann
Lou Piniella
Ed Goodson
Bob Montgomery
Jim Northrup
Tony Muser
Joe Lahoud
Jim Fregosi
Fran Healy
Keith Hernandez
Biff Pocoroba
Merv Rettenmund
Walt Williams
Mario Guerrero
Marc Hill
Bob Sheldon
Randy Hundley
Ken Boswell
Dave Moates
Rick Auerbach
Jack Pierce
John Stearns
Doug DeCinces
Tom Hutton
Mickey Stanley
Jose Morales
Mike Vail
Dick Sharon
Darrel Chaney
Bill Plummer
Craig Kusick
Larry Milbourne
Larry Lintz
Bob Stinson
Art Howe
Jack Heidemann
Rick Dempsey
Ollie Brown
Tom Paciorek
Gene Michael
Rich Coggins
Ed Kirkpatrick
Rob Sperring
Mike Cubbage
Tony Scott
Billy Smith
Cito Gaston
Tim Hosley
Ed Brinkman
Buddy Bradford
Ray Fosse
Tommy Helms
Tim Blackwell
Duffy Dyer
Ed Crosby
Adrian Garrett
Bob Davis
Tom Kelly
Doug Flynn
Bob Heise
Rudy Meoli
Phil Roof
Dave McKay
Bob Robertson
Jim Holt
Andy Etchebarren
John Balaz
Alex Johnson
John Wockenfuss
Frank Robinson
Rick Bladt
Dave Roberts
Winston Llenas
Jerry Martin
Pat Scanlon
Angel Mangual
Andy Messersmith
Rick Miller
Ted Martinez
Pete Varney
Mike Sadek
Joe Lovitto
Ron Blomberg
Bob Belloir
Bill Sudakis
Tony Taylor
Leo Cardenas
Jesus Alou
Orlando Ramirez
Phil Niekro
Jerry Davanon
Jerry White
Tom Seaver
Billy Baldwin
Carl Morton
Henry Cruz
John Doherty
Skip Jutze
Champ Summers
Glenn Adams
Steve Carlton
Doug Rau
Ivan DeJesus
John Knox
Tim Johnson
Randy Jones
Ray Burris
Ron Reed
Bill Bonham
Sergio Ferrer
Terry Whitfield
John Montefusco
Tim McCarver
Lynn McGlothen
Dave Nelson
Don Sutton
Ken Rudolph
Jerry Koosman
Bob Forsch
Steve Rogers
Rick Reuschel
Larry Dierker
Jim Barr
Craig Reynolds
Tom Underwood
J.R. Richard
Johnnie LeMaster
Bud Harrelson
Burt Hooton
Terry Harmon
Luis Gomez
Steve Stone
Bobby Valentine
Jerry Reuss
Terry Crowley
Jon Matlack
Tom Egan
Gary Nolan
Ike Hampton
Leron Lee
Pete Falcone
Ed Armbrister
Mike Squires
Jack Billingham

Now, feel free to tell me where your proof is that Bonds took anything other than Greenies, since you want proof and all of that. Heaven forbid someone say the "old guard" was just as big of cheats as the players of today. We need proof to tarnish their legacy but today just a simple "I think he did it, so he did it" will suffice.

[Sliding Billy]

Read "Ball Four" by Jim Bouton.

There is more than enough circumstancial evidence from both personal interviews of the players, personal admissions or eye witness accounts from teammates that the following players all used greenies -- and keep in mind, this isn't even the entire list, these are just ones we know a little about.

Dave Cash
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
Jack Billingham

Now, feel free to tell me where your proof is that Bonds took anything other than Greenies, since you want proof and all of that. Heaven forbid someone say the "old guard" was just as big of cheats as the players of today. We need proof to tarnish their legacy but today just a simple "I think he did it, so he did it" will suffice.
I don't really see why Aaron looms so large in this discussion. Is it because he holds the career HR record? I thought history basically accepted his "tried it once, didn't like it" non-admission, which is the only source I've noticed on BBF for "Aaron used greenies." Are people shocked that he even tried them? Or did I miss something?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't really see why Aaron looms so large in this discussion. Is it because he holds the career HR record? I thought history basically accepted his "tried it once, didn't like it" non-admission, which is the only source I've noticed on BBF for "Aaron used greenies." Are people shocked that he even tried them? Or did I miss something?

What I'm wondering, how many on that list may have used greenies seldom or on some rare occasions. It was not illegal and I don't put it on the same level when it comes to performance enhancing steroids that build muscle, add body weight and increase strength

Greenies, a quick shot can increase awareness pick one up, a boost of some benefit to an athlete. Some other effects of amphetamine use, insomnia, nervousness, hallucinations, fatigue, irregular heart rate and restlessness.

I'm happy both are banned but I think steroids is the choice of the two to enhance, boost performance. That is if one is foolish enough to go that way and suffer some health problems down the road.

[Appling]

I don't really see why Aaron looms so large in this discussion. Is it because he holds the career HR record? Are people shocked that he even tried them? Or did I miss something?
I agree.

Despite the high level of scrutiny, especillaly on Bonds, I was surprised he would even try "greenies" at this point.
But if we go easy on Bonds NOW (just enforce the "strike one" penalty now prescribed by MLB for any ballplayer) -- then why would there be any speculation on the possible use of greenies by Aaron (or Mantle or Mays or any other former star) if greenies were not tested for (and apparently not really "forbidden") when those guys were active players?

Once a player has safely entered the HOF, I don't think we should spend any time in guess work, "talking about the past".

[lance_the_pants]

I will have to say good and bad news.

Good because it may finally tarnish Barry Bonds' career enough that he has no shot at Cooperstown, and MLB will finally realize this. Also, maybe he will be forced to retire because nobody will take him (unless your the Florida Marlins and need to sell tickets).

Bad because it continues the fact that Professional Baseball has a drug problem, which is moving along like a freight train. Even life-time (or two-year) suspensions do not seem to stop players, so what will?

Who knows.

[Skin & Bones]

Greenies, a quick shot can increase awareness pick one up, a boost of some benefit to an athlete. Some other effects of amphetamine use, insomnia, nervousness, hallucinations, fatigue, irregular heart rate and restlessness.

Shoeless, why do you keep repeating this?

Greenies aren't a " quick pick me up ", Coffee is a quick " pick me up " Greenies are an energy enhancer that enables you to do things much quicker, and perform at a higher level without feeling fatigued.

And pointing out Greenies negative attributes doesn't downplay it's performnance enhancing benefits - Heck, steroids are just as problematic, if not more, does that downplay it's benefits?

To me the whole " Greenies are nothing but a quick pick me up " crowd are probably huge fans of famous ballplayers such as Aaron, Mays, etc, so they try and downplay Greenies benefits as much as possible despite the evidence showing other-wise.

[Skin & Bones]

He and his supporters can spin it anyway he wants to. I'm just waiting for when he gets caught using something a lot more potent, one that wasn't around when Aaron, Mays and Mantle played. Until then, this seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

Matt, so if someone shatters his records using something " more potent ", you will be outraged?

[jpenrod]

Read "Ball Four" by Jim Bouton.

There is more than enough circumstancial evidence from both personal interviews of the players, personal admissions or eye witness accounts from teammates that the following players all used greenies -- and keep in mind, this isn't even the entire list, these are just ones we know a little about.

Hank Aaron


Thanks for the hard evidence.

I could also say read "I Had a Hammer: The Hank Aaron Story" in which Aaron said he tried a greenie one time in 1968 and felt terrible the entire game, like his heart would explode, and never tried them again.



Now, feel free to tell me where your proof is that Bonds took anything other than Greenies, since you want proof and all of that. Heaven forbid someone say the "old guard" was just as big of cheats as the players of today. We need proof to tarnish their legacy but today just a simple "I think he did it, so he did it" will suffice.

Article 1 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/MNGGFA0UDU65.DTL)

Article 2 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594)

Article 3 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/12/03/bonds.steroids/)

Article 4 (http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/MichaelLoos/2007/01/12/Did_Bonds_do_steroids_Judge_for_yourself)

I thought I mentioned in my first post the cream and the clear, but maybe I didn't. Last time I looked Bonds admitted to a federal grand hjury that he used the cream and the clear without knowing he was using steroids. I am not dbating whter he did in fact know he used them, but he did use them by his own admission. If you want to base accusations of Aaron's Greenie use on circumstantial evidence, then I think you must acknowledge that circumastantial evidence (beyond his admission) would indicate Bonds has used more than Greenies.

[Mattingly]

Matt, so if someone shatters his records using something " more potent ", you will be outraged?
Shatters whose record? Aarons? If someone shatters this and they've got some serious allegations of PED usage against them, which Bonds, Mac, Sosa and a few others have, then I wouldn't acknowledge the so-called new record.

If you're referring to a possibility that Bonds will shatter Aaron's record and someone, also allegedly on PEDs, shatters that, then I'd still consider Aaron to be the legitimate career HR leader.

I also consider Maris the legit single-season HR leader. It's not outrage as much as it is deciding which record you respect and feel is the legitimate one, opposed to those you feel are very suspicious and therefore dubious in the way they'd attained such records.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Shoeless, why do you keep repeating this?

Greenies aren't a " quick pick me up ", Coffee is a quick " pick me up " Greenies are an energy enhancer that enables you to do things much quicker, and perform at a higher level without feeling fatigued.

And pointing out Greenies negative attributes doesn't downplay it's performnance enhancing benefits - Heck, steroids are just as problematic, if not more, does that downplay it's benefits?

To me the whole " Greenies are nothing but a quick pick me up " crowd are probably huge fans of famous ballplayers such as Aaron, Mays, etc, so they try and downplay Greenies benefits as much as possible despite the evidence showing other-wise.

Keep repeating, is this the first time, am I the only one that has posted a message that I had posted before. I see it all the time, doesn't bother me at all.

As far as pointing out the negative side of greenies, I was only bringing up the downside of greenies. I did not ever deny that greenies can inhance performance.

Compared to steroids greenies are a pick me up, short term out of the system in a day or two. Steroids stay with the user as long as they are used on a steady time table.
You compare a chemical amphetimines with steroids that can make the athlete stronger, there it is again you asked for it.

Where did I downplay the benefit of greenies. Take another look at my post, I spoke of the up and the downside of amphetimine use.

[ESPNFan]

Shoeless, why do you keep repeating this?

Greenies aren't a " quick pick me up ", Coffee is a quick " pick me up " Greenies are an energy enhancer that enables you to do things much quicker, and perform at a higher level without feeling fatigued.

And pointing out Greenies negative attributes doesn't downplay it's performnance enhancing benefits - Heck, steroids are just as problematic, if not more, does that downplay it's benefits?

To me the whole " Greenies are nothing but a quick pick me up " crowd are probably huge fans of famous ballplayers such as Aaron, Mays, etc, so they try and downplay Greenies benefits as much as possible despite the evidence showing other-wise.

Caffine has been proven to be perfromance enhancing as well. (Oddly enough it seems to loose some effectiveness when brewed in coffee.)

Greenies when they work give people a sence of euphoria that allows them to function at what they percive is a higher level. Can this be an enhancement, absolutely it can, perception and a person's mind is a powerful thing. It can also be a detriment as the euphoria clouds your mind to the negative effects, potential dangers and addiction of greenies as you need to take more and more to get the same high.

The negative attributes of greenies can directly and quickly negate any benifiets they bestow, that is assuming that the person taking them sees a benefit at all. These are a drug that effects the central nervous system and a person's perception plays a great deal in how any benefit will be perviced. Many many people who have taken them only feel the effects of their elevated respiration/heartrate.
Feeling like your sick to your stomach or having a heart attack is hardly an enhancement.

The potential hazardous/negative effects of greenies can happen the first time you take them, where as the negative effects of steroids are generally thought to take moderate to long term use to materialize.

[ESPNFan]

Keep repeating, is this the first time, am I the only one that has posted a message that I had posted before. I see it all the time, doesn't bother me at all.

As far as pointing out the negative side of greenies, I was only bringing up the downside of greenies. I did not ever deny that greenies can inhance performance.

Compared to steroids greenies are a pick me up, short term out of the system in a day or two. Steroids stay with the user as long as they are used on a steady time table.
You compare a chemical amphetimines with steroids that can make the athlete stronger, there it is again you asked for it.

Where did I downplay the benefit of greenies. Take another look at my post, I spoke of the up and the downside of amphetimine use.

Not only that Joe but How many players themselves have catagorized grenies/speed as a pick me up. A way to get through the season. The players say it themselves.

Skin & Bones wants to make it look like everyone who says greenies are mainly just a pick me up has an agenda, but isn't it more likey that the person who ignores the very same quotes from the players because it blows a hole in his tired greenies=steroids comparisons the one with the agenda?

[Whitesoxnut]

Not defending, not giving past players using greenies a free pass. It all comes down to this. How do you penalize a player either legally or in the our mind for using a substance that was not banned at that time.

If we can recall, this was also the defense for Barry and a valid one, if he used steroids before ban, so what.

The bottom line, this guy needs help. Fair or unfair, he is the guy that has been under the gun, the guy with the spotlight on him the last few years and ..... what does he do, use a substance that was just banned.

So If MLB doesn't have a specific rule against rape/homicide does that mean its OK to do it? Does MLB have to specifically write a rule on every criminal offense we have on the books?

Lets face it. MLB knew all this was going on for decades , both for greenies and juice. They ignored it because they were concerned only with $$, and they knew most fans didn't give a darn. The NFL had a amphetamine and steroid problem as big as MLB did and they were able to take action about it.

This game is as phony as a 4$ bill. I just bought a HDTV because #1, I dont like going to sporting events, and #2, I wont drop my money into the phony MLB machine. Boy they have ruined this sport!

And Barry Bonds? Whats his first reaction when accused of dropping greenies? It reminded me of Kindergarten when Bobby blamed Billy when accused of something.:laugh

[Dodgerfan1]

Lets face it. MLB knew all this was going on for decades , both for greenies and juice. They ignored it because they were concerned only with $$, and they knew most fans didn't give a darn.

I agree with this completely, though I believe the main thing that jumps out at MLB is your second point, NOT your first. Yes, MLB is concerned almost exclusively with $$, however if point number two weren't true (they knew most fans didn't give a darn), I believe they would be doing more to curb greenies. I think fans do care much more about the juice than greenies, as they should, IMO. Every time someone on this forum brings up the subject of steroids, someone chimes in with the greenies issue. I understand the logic involved, however I believe comparing steroids to greenies is like comparing grand larceny to petty theft. Same principle but very different issues.

[Mattingly]

Since he's not actually signed for 2007 yet, and considering that nobody other than SFG wanted him when he was an FA the last time, I offer a toon from Bill Gallo and a Sunday article from Bill Madden, both of the NY Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/839-gallo14.gif

End of the chase
In speedy fashion, Giants should cut ties with Barry (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/488433p-411354c.html)
It remains to be seen if the revelation that Barry Bonds tested positive for amphetamines last year (and apparently threw his teammate Mark Sweeney under the bus), combined with the deadlocked negotiations over issues with his entourage and other special privileges, will cause the Giants to walk away from their $16 million verbal commitment to bring him back for the final assault on Hank Aaron's home run record.

Certainly they must know that everyone in baseball, from the commissioner on down, is hoping they do.

Bonds is a plague on the game and a divisive force in the Giants' clubhouse, his pursuit of Aaron's record being greeted with dread rather than excitement, which is why Giants owner Peter Magowan's decision to give him $16 million when no other team in baseball wanted any part of him is so curious.

Magowan seemed to be one owner who got it, especially when it came to tradition, legacy and integrity of the game. There is no better evidence of this than the club level at AT&T Park, which is, in essence, a walk-through of the team's New York/Polo Grounds roots, the walls adorned with framed pictures, newspaper clippings and memorabilia from John McGraw to Mel Ott to Bobby Thomson.

Magowan is also an owner who believes in leaving the baseball decisions to his baseball people, and he had to know his GM, Brian Sabean, desperately wanted to move past the Bonds era and get the circus out of town.

Whatever impact Bonds might have with his bat is counteracted by the divisiveness and distraction he causes off the field. And it's not like the Giants needed him and his pursuit of the record for attendance purposes. Because of the All-Star Game and the season-ticket packages attached to it, AT&T is pretty much sold out for the season.

[cardsfanatic]

So If MLB doesn't have a specific rule against rape/homicide does that mean its OK to do it? Does MLB have to specifically write a rule on every criminal offense we have on the books?


Steroids are also a class 3 drug. Amphetamines are class 1. So, if you really want to split hairs about legality and such, ampetamines/greenies are far higher on the US Gov't's target list when it comes to use and sell. Steroids are below some prescription drugs. While steroids are illegal they're hardly on the same playing field as cocaine, PCP, heroin and crack.

Steroids are in the same class as coedine (in cough syrup) and hydrocodone with aspirin and tylenol. Taken straight from the DEA's website. I'm not saying steroids are "legal" but they also don't carry the same kind of punishment as do other drugs -- amphetamines -- nor does the US gov't crack down on them like they do other drugs.

I, for one, don't really understand the need to outlaw steroids as their side effects are central to the user, only. It's not like LSD and other drugs where people get high and go on shooting rampages and get behind the wheel of a car and drive like they're playing Grand Theft Auto. Those substances I can understand controlling.

But it seems pretty damned ignorant to allow alcohol and cigarettes to be sold which do just as much damage to a person's body as steroids, but outlaw steroids because they have "health risks". They might as well call it what it is. Here, I'll even start their press conference for them.

"Due to the vast market of imported steroids and designer steroids that come overseas, we can't control the market and therefore, we can't collect every tax dollar possible from the steroid market. Because we can't charge our 30% tax on steroids that we could use to fund our bridge to nowhere, we must pass legislation which outlaws the use of steroids..."

And they can take it from there.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

So If MLB doesn't have a specific rule against rape/homicide does that mean its OK to do it? Does MLB have to specifically write a rule on every criminal offense we have on the books?



That was not the point I was trying to get across. Only saying that we can't penalize anyone who used a substance before it was banned.

It's like that with greenies that were used long ago or even steroids if a player used steroids before the ban.

[Sliding Billy]

I agree with this completely, though I believe the main thing that jumps out at MLB is your second point, NOT your first. Yes, MLB is concerned almost exclusively with $$, however if point number two weren't true (they knew most fans didn't give a darn), I believe they would be doing more to curb greenies. I think fans do care much more about the juice than greenies, as they should, IMO. Every time someone on this forum brings up the subject of steroids, someone chimes in with the greenies issue. I understand the logic involved, however I believe comparing steroids to greenies is like comparing grand larceny to petty theft. Same principle but very different issues.
If what you say is true, then the fans bear the same burden as MLB in allowing the steroids issue to develop. If your attitude towards a widely banned schedule II PED is nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say no more, then when steroids come along, you're going to reap the whirlwind.

As far as I'm concerned, MLB passively and knowingly condoned greenie use, so I can't take seriously an argument that depends on both the premises that "greenies were trivial" and that "steroids were illegal before they were banned." Every athletic organization has to police its own house and MLB has failed to do so, in part because there was no outcry to do so until it was too late.

All you can expect from players is for them to follow the rules in the books, provided the people who write them take them seriously enough to enforce them.

As far as the despoilation of the record books goes, we'll have to wait and see how much of it can be attributed to steroids, to the new stadiums, to the dilution of pitching talent, and to the violation of the rules known as the "strike zone."

[AlecBoy006]

It's obviously good news for Mcgwire as he doesn't look so bad.

It gets worse for Bonds though.

[Skin & Bones]

Compared to steroids greenies are a pick me up, short term out of the system in a day or two. Steroids stay with the user as long as they are used on a steady time table.
You compare a chemical amphetimines with steroids that can make the athlete stronger, there it is again you asked for it.

Again, there is no comparison. It's apples and oranges, two different types of effective PED'S. My point is, whether or not steroids are more " effective " than Greenies is entirely moot when discussing Greenies performance enhancing benefits - I agree that steroids are " better ", atleast long term, but if I was a lazy athlete, looking for an artificial edge for tomorrow's game, Greenies is the way to go - there's no way around it.

Shatters whose record? Aarons? If someone shatters this and they've got some serious allegations of PED usage against them, which Bonds, Mac, Sosa and a few others have, then I wouldn't acknowledge the so-called new record.

Again, this arguement is specious at best. You claimed Bonds, or anyone's records for that matter are more " tainted " than the players of yesteryear because the drugs they used were supposedly more " potent " - So I ask, what if someone later using something more " potent " obliterates Bonds records, would you then be outraged like you are now?

[west coast orange and black]

jpenrod: aaron said he tried a greenie one time in 1968 and felt terrible the entire game, like his heart would explode, and never tried them again.
totally not true.


article 1, article 2, article 3, article 4
please direct us to the quote(s) from bonds where he admits to using steroid-containing substances.
>> article 3: "during testimony, federal prosecutors confronted bonds with documents indicating he had used steroids and a human growth hormone, but the san francisco giants' star denied the allegations."
(my italics)

Last time I looked Bonds admitted to a federal grand hjury that he used the cream and the clear without knowing he was using steroids.
please cite this testimony admittance from bonds.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If what you say is true, then the fans bear the same burden as MLB in allowing the steroids issue to develop. If your attitude towards a widely banned schedule II PED is nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say no more, then when steroids come along, you're going to reap the whirlwind.


Not buying this one Billy. Even if what you say was true the blame, the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choice.

The fans, what did you expect, what could the fans have done that would have prevented this from happening. Is it because we enjoyed the 1990s home run derby.

Should baseball have had a testing program in place sooner, I agree they should have but in the end the whole blame for doing what ever any one player chose to do is to blame.

Looks like the old ghetto defense, don't blame me, look at the neighborhood, the conditions I played under.

[west coast orange and black]

SHOELESSJOE3: the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choice.

i would almost always agree with your take here, shoeless. but the teams' staffs and beat writers had access, saw much of what as going on, but decided to keep it under their hat. i feel that they, too, are culpable to the degree that illegal substances have been abused.

many fans have pretty much known for decades what time it is, but the great majority of fans are not in a position to be certain of drug use and do something about it the way that insiders are.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

SHOELESSJOE3: the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choice.

i would almost always agree with your take here, shoeless. but the teams' staffs and beat writers had access, saw much of what as going on, but decided to keep it under their hat. i feel that they, too, are culpable to the degree that illegal substances have been abused.
many fans have pretty much known for decades what time it is, but the great majority of fans are not in a position to be certain of drug use and do something about it the way that insiders are.

I can go with that but still the act of actually using the substance and the one at fault has to be the user. In other words though MLB was lax to say the least no user can say it's not all my fault.

MLB guilty of not taking care of it's own house but can't take any blame for what any one individual chose to do.

[Sliding Billy]

Not buying this one Billy. Even if what you say was true the blame, the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choice.

The fans, what did you expect, what could the fans have done that would have prevented this from happening. Is it because we enjoyed the 1990s home run derby.

Should baseball have had a testing program in place sooner, I agree they should have but in the end the whole blame for doing what ever any one player chose to do is to blame.

Looks like the old ghetto defense, don't blame me, look at the neighborhood, the conditions I played under.
Oh, I agree, the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choices: MLB made the choice to look the other way throughout the greenie era and as far into the cocaine and steroids eras as they possibly could. They could have prevented all of them and they chose to abet them. Why do they get a pass? Did their parents not buy them a bicycle when they were young?

I wasn't talking about not blaming the players, I was talking about the folly of expecting a bunch of jocks trained from childhood to focus on winning alone to police themselves and then being shocked shocked when it doesn't happen.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Oh, I agree, the whole blame is shouldered by those who made the choices: MLB made the choice to look the other way throughout the greenie era and as far into the cocaine and steroids eras as they possibly could. They could have prevented all of them and they chose to abet them. Why do they get a pass? Did their parents not buy them a bicycle when they were young?

I agree baseball created an atmosphere that was not good for the game. Looking the other way and I think even they knew that some day the whole mess would blow up, right in their face. They chose to do nothing and now it's happened, it's a mess that should not have happened.

[west coast orange and black]

shoeless: the act of actually using the substance and the one at fault has to be the user
100% agreed on this one.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

shoeless: the act of actually using the substance and the one at fault has to be the user
100% agreed on this one.

OK, looks like we're both on the same page on that one.

[Whitesoxnut]

That was not the point I was trying to get across. Only saying that we can't penalize anyone who used a substance before it was banned.

Which is exactly what I was saying. That you can "penalize" because the stuff was banned under criminal statute. Banned by MLB ?? :laugh :laugh Honestly this clown of a commissioner simply has to go. MLB has become a circus act.

I'm a policeman that works midnights, often having to make life or death decisions at 0300 hrs. If I get caught using greenies I'd get fired. So dont expect me to feel sorry for some selfish, egotistical idiot of a baseball player who feels he needs to get buzzed to hit more home runs, thus adding to his multi-million $$ salary.

Oh man is this game phony. :laugh

[Skin & Bones]

Honestly this clown of a commissioner simply has to go. MLB has become a circus act.

Of course, since Amphetamines have been an issue for since who knows when, many commissioner's are responsible for ignoring it's rampant use among ballplayers.

[Sliding Billy]

Of course, since Amphetamines have been an issue for since who knows when, many commissioner's are responsible for ignoring it's rampant use among ballplayers.
I won't hear a word against General William "Spike" Eckert!

[csh19792001]

I'm with Ubiquitous on this one only in the sense that it's no news.

I'd be surprised if there was well known steroid/PED this guy hasn't ingested or injected himself with in the past 10 years.

Barry's reputation was already shot in the sports world and basically everywhere outside of San Francisco, and most people will always see his records from after 2000 as phony regardless of how many drug tests he fails in the future.

[Mattingly]

Again, this arguement is specious at best. You claimed Bonds, or anyone's records for that matter are more " tainted " than the players of yesteryear because the drugs they used were supposedly more " potent " - So I ask, what if someone later using something more " potent " obliterates Bonds records, would you then be outraged like you are now?
I'm not sure why you describe my points as "specious". Anyway, to answer your question, if someone after Bonds shattered his records and used a PED, yes, I would think that record were just as phony as Bonds' are, since I believe that Bonds used PEDs. Not proven, but there's lots of circumstantial evidence there.

If the more "potent" thing being used were illegal in the USA, regardless of whether it was eventually banned by MLB, it wouldn't matter to me. If it is illegal to use, distribute and possess in the USA, if it is illegal to use in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, IOC or any other nationally-recognized major sport, then I would be very much against it.

In addition, if it were not yet banned at the time because it had been undetectable, but later proven to be a PED, then I would also say that this shattering of a record, regardless of who'd previously set it, would be tainted in my view.

[ESPNFan]

Of course, since Amphetamines have been an issue for since who knows when, many commissioner's are responsible for ignoring it's rampant use among ballplayers.

Its widely reguarded that amphetamines became more popular when players began coming back from WWII & later in Korea (use in Japan was so bad that it was considered a national problem) . Manny may have become addicted to them during their military service and since they were a accepted persciption medication (even forms of Meth-amphetamines) for a variety of ailments at the time their use back then would have raised few eyebrows.

They were not an Illegal/controlled substance until 1970

[ESPNFan]

I'm not sure why you describe my points as "specious". Anyway, to answer your question, if someone after Bonds shattered his records and used a PED, yes, I would think that record were just as phony as Bonds' are, since I believe that Bonds used PEDs. Not proven, but there's lots of circumstantial evidence there.

If the more "potent" thing being used were illegal in the USA, regardless of whether it was eventually banned by MLB, it wouldn't matter to me. If it is illegal to use, distribute and possess in the USA, if it is illegal to use in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS, IOC or any other nationally-recognized major sport, then I would be very much against it.

In addition, if it were not yet banned at the time because it had been undetectable, but later proven to be a PED, then I would also say that this shattering of a record, regardless of who'd previously set it, would be tainted in my view.

I agree completely in not only your opinion but as to your confussion to your opinion being described as "specious" as well.

[Mattingly]

I agree completely in not only your opinion but as to your confussion to your opinion being described as "specious" as well.
Thanks. I should've used a few "and/or" types of things, but I pretty much said what was on my mind. :)

It's too bad that it's a team sport involving many players. In the IOC, if someone is caught using steroids or if they're found doping in the Tour de France, they strip their records. In baseball, you can't just wipe their records clean w/o doing the same to the other participants.

Regardless of whether greenies were used back in the days of Aaron, Mantle and Mays, it's one of many banned substances right now. That said, whoever's still using it should have received fair and proper warning, so if they broke a record using greenies, I'd now frown upon that also.

Hopefully, we won't have a heavy influx of newer undetectable PEDs which are later found to greatly and falsely enhance players' stamina, effectiveness, etc. If so, will it be the player hitting or throwing the ball, or is it the super duper vitamin pills that are helping them do so much work?

Me, I like things done the ol' fashioned way: naturally with no crazy and illegal additives. :) Hopefully, Barry's body doesn't suffer from anything he's ingested over the past 5+ seasons.

[W_Marone]

The good: Finally there is some actual evidence...legitamate evidence, that Bonds used something to help his performance.

The bad: One of baseball's best players ever has been found as a cheater

The ugly: The most prestegious record in sports could fall by a known cheater, should be interesting if Bud turns a blind eye away from it all like he did during McGwire's HR run at 61.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Me, I like things done the ol' fashioned way: naturally with no crazy and illegal additives. :)

Ditto that. We're put here on earth with certain God-given abilities. Its what we do with that ability that determines how high we'll soar and what we'll accomplish. Some with lesser ability work their arses off and become great, and some with more just coast and fade away. But once they start artificially enhancing their actual chemical make-up, then what is the point of sport? Why not just use robots out there.

[hiddengem]

But once they start artificially enhancing their actual chemical make-up, then what is the point of sport?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[sandlot]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Pretty much sums up a lot of the answer, but not all. There is a fundamental question in all of this: What are the limits of the human body under certain conditions, in this case, a sport? For some, this is a purely objective question, one of measurement. For others, it is moral. Yet others are unsure about or reject the moral aspect, but do think that issues of ethics and standards arise. Where some see wide social issues, other see narrow, purely personal considerations.

At one end is the approach Matt gives, which is observing the limits of what the body can achieve on its own, i.e., naturally, with no artificial assistance. At the other end is the view that you cannot know the body's limits unless you apply all the knowledge of the relevant sciences available at any given time. In between those two poles is the world of grey area. That greyness starts with questioning the assumption that "natural" exists. Then one asks what is "natural" and what is "unnatural," e.g., artificial. One asks whether naturalness, if indeed it's defineable, varies over time or is immutable. There are also many who ask why any of this should matter.

One cannot compare the performance of racing cars driven in 1917 with the vehicles driven in 2007. Everything about them is different. Yet people track the times and distances to measure performance. No one expects that Formula One cars in the Indy 500 should or would run on the same fuel and tires that were used 90 years ago. Yet ballplayers are supposed to be measured -- according to the normalist view (to coin a term) -- by unchanging "natural" criteria, when in fact nothing, from their nutrition, to their life expectancy, to the cleats on their feet, is the same now as it was back then. The normalist approach is a very sentimental, and perhaps uniquely sentimental one. I incline toward it myself, to be honest, but I still have to admit that it's a view that falls several sandwiches short of an entirely rational picnic.