Interesting Parallel

[NotAboutEgo]

It's interesting to read about how the Negro Leagues came about, what African-American men and Latin men faced while trying to play baseball... not just in MLB when it was created... but in baseball leagues in general in the U.S. Black men were told they weren't allowed to play in many amateur leagues, and the Minors banned them from playing in the minor league system. It wasn't until 1947, when Jackie Robinson was signed to a MLB contract, that the color barrier began to be broken. The history of the Negro Leagues and what men of color had to face when they wanted to play baseball very closely parallels what women who want to play baseball have been facing since the inception of organized baseball in the U.S. Men of color were constantly told they are inferior to white men in baseball and in everything else; therefore, they couldn't play professional baseball in the "white" leagues. Women are constantly told they are "inferior to men in many ways, and therefore, no woman will ever be good enough to play in MLB."

It's almost like history is repeating itself... women's baseball has been going through a lot of what male players of color went through... yet, women have had to fight even more for their place in the game.

"Men of color" started playing organized baseball at the same time that white men did. Well, women started playing organized baseball at pretty much the same time as well. Thankfully, men of color were able to break through the segregation barriers so they could have the same opportunities as white men. Women, however, are still fighting to have the same opportunities.

Negro league milestone - women in men's baseball
"Perhaps the only class of people more discriminated against than black men in the national pastime were women. The Negro Leagues contributed one other milestone to professional baseball not seen before or since: Women playing in the men's game. Mamie Peanut Johnson was discovered by Bish Tyson, a former Negro League player. Dubbed 'peanut' by a batter because of her diminutive stature, there was little else small about this right-handed pitcher for the Indianapolis Clowns from 1953 to 1955, whose career record was 33-8 as a pitcher who also possessed a batting average that ranged .262 to .284, against some of the toughest male players of the day of any color. The legendary Satchel Paige, whose Monarchs played the Clowns frequently, befriended Johnson and taught her a wicked curve ball. She was one of a handful of women ever to play with men in the men's game. She did it with great success. Were it not for Jackie Robinson breaking the color line, she would have probably continued to pitch with great success for years longer. Women of color would not cross over into the major leagues." -- excerpt from Wikipedia, "History of Baseball in the United States"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baseball_in_the_United_States#The_Negro _leagues

It's even more interesting that African-American women were not allowed to play in the AAGPBL... a double whammy. If the league was truly interested in giving women the opportunity to play pro baseball... from a truly humanitarian point of view... it wouldn't have banned black women from playing in the league.

So many more parallels can be drawn here.

[Brian McKenna]

A "league" is a business organization. It is concerned with profits like all businesses in the world. "Associations" originate with a humanitarian purpose. They are not the same. It doesn't make one better than the other, just the goals are different.

That the AAGPBL didn't include African-Americans was a reflections of the times, the country they did business in, prevailing and individual racial attitudes and the conservative businessmen who ran the operation.

You're right about the color barrier. It only began to be broken in 1945 when Robby was signed by the Dodgers. It took another 20-30 years for it to be actually broken at the player level.

It is absolutely right that organized baseball has consistently and systematically discriminated against women at most levels - administratively and at the talent level. Baseball has always been a male-dominated industry.

It is also true that a very low percentage of women have earmarked baseball as their profession. An even lower number actually possess the skills to compete for a roster spot in organized baseball. Considering the actually % of successful candidates versus aspiring ones, it's plausible that a woman may not ascend the tiers of organized baseball for decades. However, they should not be categorically denied the opportunity.

It is also important to note that though African-American males were excluded from organized baseball, they formed a series of successful and profitable leagues which as a by-product developed a vast number of highly-skilled and competitive athletes. Female leagues have failed in this effort for a variety of reasons, many which were out of their control. The best way to beat a system (or eventually join it) is to show it the possibilities and to make them yearn for a piece of the pie.

Remembrances of a few athletes of yore won't accomplish that. Only the thought of potential profits will make people stand up and take notice. The first course of attack here is through the media. Perceptions must be changed; that is where it is done.

[TonyK]

A "league" is a business organization. It is concerned with profits like all businesses in the world. "Associations" originate with a humanitarian purpose. They are not the same. It doesn't make one better than the other, just the goals are different.

That the AAGPBL didn't include African-Americans was a reflections of the times, the country they did business in, prevailing and individual racial attitudes and the conservative businessmen who ran the operation.

You're right about the color barrier. It only began to be broken in 1945 when Robby was signed by the Dodgers. It took another 20-30 years for it to be actually broken at the player level.

It is absolutely right that organized baseball has consistently and systematically discriminated against women at most levels - administratively and at the talent level. Baseball has always been a male-dominated industry.

It is also true that a very low percentage of women have earmarked baseball as their profession. An even lower number actually possess the skills to compete for a roster spot in organized baseball. Considering the actually % of successful candidates versus aspiring ones, it's plausible that a woman may not ascend the tiers of organized baseball for decades. However, they should not be categorically denied the opportunity.

It is also important to note that though African-American males were excluded from organized baseball, they formed a series of successful and profitable leagues which as a by-product developed a vast number of highly-skilled and competitive athletes. Female leagues have failed in this effort for a variety of reasons, many which were out of their control. The best way to beat a system (or eventually join it) is to show it the possibilities and to make them yearn for a piece of the pie.

Remembrances of a few athletes of yore won't accomplish that. Only the thought of potential profits will make people stand up and take notice. The first course of attack here is through the media. Perceptions must be changed; that is where it is done.

The high percentage of young women playing softball hurts efforts to form a women's professional baseball league I feel.

[NotAboutEgo]

A "league" is a business organization. It is concerned with profits like all businesses in the world. "Associations" originate with a humanitarian purpose. They are not the same. It doesn't make one better than the other, just the goals are different.

Yes... if it is a professional league. From my understanding, even some amateur leagues told black men they couldn't play in them. Amateur leagues aren't about making money (they shouldn't be unless someone is just making a good living off of something they love rather than trying to capitalize on everyone)... so they say anyway.

That the AAGPBL didn't include African-Americans was a reflections of the times, the country they did business in, prevailing and individual racial attitudes and the conservative businessmen who ran the operation.

Yep, but it doesn't mean it was right. I know you're not saying that, and people should learn from past history instead of repeating it when something has gone wrong in the past. It's great that some women had the chance to play in the Negro Leagues and were very successful at it.

You're right about the color barrier. It only began to be broken in 1945 when Robby was signed by the Dodgers. It took another 20-30years for it to be actually broken at the player level.

It is absolutely right that organized baseball has consistently and systematically discriminated against women at most levels - administratively and at the talent level. Baseball has always been a male-dominated industry.

It is also true that a very low percentage of women have earmarked baseball as their profession. An even lower number actually possess the skills to compete for a roster spot in organized baseball. Considering the actually % of successful candidates versus aspiring ones, it's plausible that a woman may not ascend the tiers of organized baseball for decades. However, they should not be categorically denied the opportunity..

That's because they've been held back from doing so. Women players in the past proved that they could compete with men. Take Mamie Peanuts Johnson, for example. She had a 33-8 record pitching in the Negro Leagues. Another one, Jackie Mitchell struck out Babe Ruth and Lue Gehrig in an exhibition game. Both were just 17 years old. Babe Didrickson was a star athlete in many sports who could compete with men. They aren't the only ones who have those skills and talent and they won't be the only ones.

By saying organized baseball, do you mean the Minors and MLB, or all of organized baseball in general? If not given equal opportunities to make it to MLB, women won't make it. But, if given the same chances... not just in MLB, but all the way up the ranks and to MLB, women may prove people wrong, as they have in the past.

"However, they should not be categorically denied the opportunity."

Exactly!

It is also important to note that though African-American males were excluded from organized baseball, they formed a series of successful and profitable leagues which as a by-product developed a vast number of highly-skilled and competitive athletes. Female leagues have failed in this effort for a variety of reasons, many which were out of their control. The best way to beat a system (or eventually join it) is to show it the possibilities and to make them yearn for a piece of the pie.

Remembrances of a few athletes of yore won't accomplish that. Only the thought of potential profits will make people stand up and take notice. The first course of attack here is through the media. Perceptions must be changed; that is where it is done.

Yep... they took a negative and did something with it, even though they should have had the same opportunities to play on any other team. Women and men who support the women are creating their own teams and leagues throughout the world. We may not have pro women's baseball yet, but I can see it happening in the future. There's a great network of women's teams throughout the U.S., Canada, Japan, and Australia, and other countries such as Korea, Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong, India, Cuba, the Dominican, etc. are starting to form national and recreational teams in their countries.

With the success the Negro Leagues had, many teams still struggled to make enough money to be able to travel and play. Women's baseball (except for a few teams who have generous sponsors) is pretty much at that same point. The players of the Negro Leagues did what they had to be able to play... out of their passion for the game. Women are no different. We do what we can to have teams and leagues and national and international tournaments.

At least there's now a U.S. women's national team that is sanctioned by USA Baseball (which took years of prodding by organizers of women's baseball to get USA Baseball to jump on the bandwagon). It wasn't so hard to add women's baseball to the AAU's list of sports. It was easy... "just have enough teams and leagues signed up and you're in." Thanks to organizations like this which make it easier to happen.

Perceptions must be changed; that is where it is done. Yep, exactly... and that's what we're working on along with creating opportunities for ourselves.

[NotAboutEgo]

The high percentage of young women playing softball hurts efforts to form a women's professional baseball league I feel.

This is not directly true. What hurts a professional women's baseball league from forming is society's insistent attitude that softball is for women and baseball is for men. This attitude started long ago and has prevailed for a long time but is beginning to be broken down. And because of that attitude, currently there's not enough financial backing and media interest to support a women's professional baseball league. The numbers of women who play baseball and who are interested in playing baseball to support a professional women's baseball league are there. The numbers of organized women's teams that currently exist to provide training arenas for a pro women's league are there.

The high percentage of women playing softball today is due to (one of two reasons) women being discriminated against during and after the depression (this isn't the only time they were discriminated against, but is one of the direct reasons for women playing softball instead of baseball). Women had been playing organized baseball since 1866 in the U.S., and they had many, many successful Bloomer Girls teams for about 40 years from the late 1800's to about 1935... when the depression hit.

The other reason women's baseball teams ended was because of a lack of money during that time. However, after the depression was over with, men's baseball teams that ended because of the depression started back up again and minor league teams were formed.

What happen to women's baseball at the time? Women were discriminated against and were pushed into playing softball after it was invented, which was done so by men. Women were told softball is for them and baseball is for boys. National organizations wouldn't support women's baseball or even girls who were playing on "boys" teams and told them they had to play softball.

So, the direct result of this is the high numbers of females who currently play softball as compared to the numbers of females who currently play baseball. It doesn't stem out of females not liking baseball and not wanting to play it at all (not that you were suggesting that). The numbers of females who play baseball are growing everyday.

As the saying goes, "If you build it, they will come."

[Dalkowski110]

I think comparing the Negro Leagues to the AAGPBL is rather apples to oranges. You'll get no argument here that the greatest crime ever committed in professional baseball was segregation, but there were (and still are) arguments as to why women are not qualified to play professional baseball with men. I am not saying I agree with them or disagree with them, just that they're out there, and, as I recall from a now-gone thread, there were quite a few people that agreed with that POV. This is versus a handful of racist Klansmen currently opposing black players in pro baseball (virtually no one). Ironically, the AAGPBL never desegregated throughout its entire existence.

"Take Mamie Peanuts Johnson, for example. She had a 33-8 record pitching in the Negro Leagues."

Whoa, time out. Where did you get THAT statistic from? Don't trust NLBPA.com, as I found quite a few inaccuracies on that website (for example, while Mamie Johnson signed her contract in 1953, she didn't play during that season...she also played a single game in 1955). James A. Riley, author of the indespensible, magnificently-written The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues says that she was 19 when she signed with the Indianapolis Clowns, not 17. Further, she would literally have had to have pitched and started every single game the Clowns played plus one during League play to attain that kind of record, which she obviously did not. That W/L record is most likely garnered from barnstorming, which wasn't even at the quality it was during the 1930's (to give you an idea, they were literally challenging high school teams and members of the crowd that formed teams). Those post-1950 Negro Leaguers who didn't move on to other forms of pro ball were most likely just not all that good. In his entry for one of two other female Negro Leaguers, Toni Stone (who was also the first female Negro Leaguer), Riley also notes that the Indianapolis Clowns signed her primarily as a gate attraction.

"During the early '50's, the [Negro American League] had become strictly a minor-league operation and was struggling to survive financially. [Toni Stone's] appearance on the diamond reflected the exodus of quality players to organized ball[...]."

Connie Morgan, the other female Negro Leaguer, was signed for the same reason. It is interesting to note that she batted .368 with a team called the North Philadephia Honey Drippers. Her batting average sank to below .200 with the Clowns.

[Brian McKenna]

Organized baseball is a term used to describe members of the National Association in conjunction with MLB. The minors is a part of this; however, independent leagues and clubs are not.

Don't foget -- Pearl Barrett saw action with the Havana Stars in 1917 and Isabel Baxter played one game at second for the Cleveland Giants in 1933.

[NotAboutEgo]

I think comparing the Negro Leagues to the AAGPBL is rather apples to oranges. You'll get no argument here that the greatest crime ever committed in professional baseball was segregation, but there were (and still are) arguments as to why women are not qualified to play professional baseball with men. I am not saying I agree with them or disagree with them, just that they're out there, and, as I recall from a now-gone thread, there were quite a few people that agreed with that POV. This is versus a handful of racist Klansmen currently opposing black players in pro baseball (virtually no one). Ironically, the AAGPBL never desegregated throughout its entire existence.

Just because a point of view is "out there" doesn't mean it's qualified. It's simply a point of view. As BK stated, you have to start with changing attitudes. I can bet that most of the people who say that women aren't qualified to play pro baseball with men (and otherwise) are ones who have never, ever seen a woman play baseball before. They can have their opinions, but there is no clout in them when they can't back up what they are saying.

Who's to say no woman will ever be good enough for MLB? No one knows that, and no one ever will if women don't have the same opportinuties as men do. Size and strength aren't the only factors that can contribute to success.

"Take Mamie Peanuts Johnson, for example. She had a 33-8 record pitching in the Negro Leagues."

Whoa, time out. Where did you get THAT statistic from? Don't trust NLBPA.com, as I found quite a few inaccuracies on that website (for example, while Mamie Johnson signed her contract in 1953, she didn't play during that season...she also played a single game in 1955). James A. Riley, author of the indespensible, magnificently-written The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues says that she was 19 when she signed with the Indianapolis Clowns, not 17. Further, she would literally have had to have pitched and started every single game the Clowns played plus one during League play to attain that kind of record, which she obviously did not. That W/L record is most likely garnered from barnstorming, which wasn't even at the quality it was during the 1930's (to give you an idea, they were literally challenging high school teams and members of the crowd that formed teams). Those post-1950 Negro Leaguers who didn't move on to other forms of pro ball were most likely just not all that good. In his entry for one of two other female Negro Leaguers, Toni Stone (who was also the first female Negro Leaguer), Riley also notes that the Indianapolis Clowns signed her primarily as a gate attraction.

I didn't get the info from NLBPA.com. I got the info from other sites... several of them. Perhaps they are inaccurate, but that's the info out there. Do you know that Riley's book is totally accurate (not arguing with you... just asking and bringing up the point)? Just because a book is written about something doesn't mean it's entirely accurate, either. For example, the recently published "Encyclopedia of Women and Baseball" has many inaccuracies in it. The info for the book was gathered from talking to people who are involved with women's baseball teams, leagues, and organizations, etc., from other books, from web sites, from phone calls (I personally received one for Leslie Heaphy... one of its authors), etc. I'm not supporting the info on web sites about Mamie Peanuts Johnson and I'm not disagreeing with it. There is always room for error. My point is... how do you know who to trust, unless there are actual documents to support it?

I gathered the info from different sites. "That W/L record is most likely garnered from barnstorming." Do you know that for sure, or are you guessing (just a question)?

"During the early '50's, the [Negro American League] had become strictly a minor-league operation and was struggling to survive financially. [Toni Stone's] appearance on the diamond reflected the exodus of quality players to organized ball[...]."

Connie Morgan, the other female Negro Leaguer, was signed for the same reason. It is interesting to note that she batted .368 with a team called the North Philadephia Honey Drippers. Her batting average sank to below .200 with the Clowns.

Maybe they would have been more successful if given more of a chance. Women have never been given the same baseball opportunities... in the U.S. at least... as men. Once we get baseball at the little league level, in high schools, in college, in minor leagues and pro leagues, only then can anyone pass judgment on whether a women can compete with men at the pro level.

Also, women want to be given the same support for all levels of women's leagues. The whole point isn't to be able to play baseball in MLB, but women still should have the opportunity to if they are good enough and until we have our own pro leagues. It's the negative, sexist, discriminatory attitudes that influence and affect how society reacts and that has a chain reaction... because our society is so reactive rather than proactive.

[NotAboutEgo]

Organized baseball is a term used to describe members of the National Association in conjunction with MLB. The minors is a part of this; however, independent leagues and clubs are not.

Don't foget -- Pearl Barrett saw action with the Havana Stars in 1917 and Isabel Baxter played one game at second for the Cleveland Giants in 1933.

How did they do?

[Brian McKenna]

Who's to say no woman will ever be good enough for MLB?


I hope it's my daughter.

Funny, but I don't think anyone ever told Mildred Didrikson she couldn't do something - at least not twice after getting an earful and perhaps a few loose teeth.

[NotAboutEgo]

I hope it's my daughter.

Funny, but I don't think anyone ever told Mildred Didrikson she couldn't do something - at least not twice after getting an earful and perhaps a few loose teeth.

I hope it's my daughter.

Funny, but I don't think anyone ever told Mildred Didrikson she couldn't do something - at least not twice after getting an earful and perhaps a few loose teeth.

That would be great! Hope she plays in women's leagues when older if she doesn't get the chance to play now. There are a bunch of teams and leagues on the East Coast.

LOL... that's what gets me... when people tell other people they can't do something. That's when I love to prove them wrong (me or anyone else who was told they can't do something). I've been hearing it all my life in relation to baseball and other sports.

[Dalkowski110]

"Do you know that Riley's book is totally accurate (not arguing with you... just asking and bringing up the point)?"

Yes. It's the go-to book regarding the Negro Leagues, and Bill James agrees with me. I have the later version with the error corrections and additional info (and forward by Monte Irvin)...ironically, Mamie Johnson was given two different birthdates. When Riley was writing the book initially, she gave her year of birth out as 1932. Riley later found this to be untrue by doing his own research and finding her birth certificate.

"Do you know that for sure, or are you guessing (just a question)?"

I know it for sure because a typical Indianapolis Clowns league schedule was between 30 and 40 games. IIRC, the Clowns had a three-person "rotation" (in quotes because they basically had three starting pitchers they started in no real order). Mamie Johnson has 41 decisions, and is mentioned as having appeared as a utility player "when not pitching." Because she only appeared in only one league game her second year, 1955, it's literally not possible. A typical NAL pitcher also had maybe 10 decisions AT MOST during league play in the 1950's. Mamie Johnson was NOT the team's ace pitcher, either, and thus most likely would have gotten anywhere from five to eight decisions in league play. In other words, I know it because it's just so completely implausible that it's not humanly possible. I also know about the quality of barnstorming because Hank Aaron (who came a year before Mamie Johnson and played on the same team) spoke about it and said it was deteriorating, at that.

"Maybe they would have been more successful if given more of a chance."

Regarding Toni Stone, I doubt it. At the beginning, for the first few games, opposing pitchers were literally paid to groove pitches to her and her league batting average was in the .260's (it dropped to the .250's the following year). And she got good coaching, too (her manager went out of the way to develop her talents...as a result, she became a very good fielder). Riley elaborates...

"While playing in the Negro Leagues, she was knocked down by pitchers, taken out on double plays by baserunners, and generally treated the same as the other ballplayers while on the field."

I think the Negro Leaguers really tried to give Toni Stone and Connie Morgan a shot. Also Mamie Johnson (probably the best of the three). It's just that Toni Stone was mediocre at best and Connie Morgan couldn't hit. With Mamie Johnson, it worked to some degree. I'm still looking for her league play pitching stats beyond W/L. I should note that all three played on men's teams, including Morgan before her stay with the all-girls team.

As for your views (and mine for that matter), I saw the whole thread on why baseball remained male-dominated or whatever it was called. You tend to go into long rants during debates. I prefer a different debate style, and thus am sticking to definding the facts, not the opinions.

Oh, I forgot about Pearl Barrett. According to Riley, she rarely played at all, and was basically signed as a gate attraction. When she did play, it was at first base. Her role seems to have been almost purely defensive.

[TonyK]

This is not directly true. What hurts a professional women's baseball league from forming is society's insistent attitude that softball is for women and baseball is for men. This attitude started long ago and has prevailed for a long time but is beginning to be broken down. And because of that attitude, currently there's not enough financial backing and media interest to support a women's professional baseball league. The numbers of women who play baseball and who are interested in playing baseball to support a professional women's baseball league are there. The numbers of organized women's teams that currently exist to provide training arenas for a pro women's league are there.

The high percentage of women playing softball today is due to (one of two reasons) women being discriminated against during and after the depression (this isn't the only time they were discriminated against, but is one of the direct reasons for women playing softball instead of baseball). Women had been playing organized baseball since 1866 in the U.S., and they had many, many successful Bloomer Girls teams for about 40 years from the late 1800's to about 1935... when the depression hit.

The other reason women's baseball teams ended was because of a lack of money during that time. However, after the depression was over with, men's baseball teams that ended because of the depression started back up again and minor league teams were formed.

What happen to women's baseball at the time? Women were discriminated against and were pushed into playing softball after it was invented, which was done so by men. Women were told softball is for them and baseball is for boys. National organizations wouldn't support women's baseball or even girls who were playing on "boys" teams and told them they had to play softball.

So, the direct result of this is the high numbers of females who currently play softball as compared to the numbers of females who currently play baseball. It doesn't stem out of females not liking baseball and not wanting to play it at all (not that you were suggesting that). The numbers of females who play baseball are growing everyday.

As the saying goes, "If you build it, they will come."

In your state of Michigan last year, over 17,000 girls played high school varsity softball. The best players will move on and play college softball. How many? Perhaps a few hundred to several hundred.

But in Michigan last year, only 7 girls played on high school varsity baseball teams.

Little League estimates that 100,000 girls between 7 and 12 play in their US baseball program. I couldn't find out how many girls nationwide play high school varsity baseball. If only 7 play in Michigan, then is it fair to say that a few hundred are still playing baseball six years after playing little league?

What happened to the other 99,000+ girls playing in little league? How come they (and their parents) aren't petitioning their school boards to add girl's baseball to the school sports program?

Suppose enough high school girls do want to form a high school baseball team? The problems they will encounter are lack of school money for coaches and equipment, lack of field space, competition with softball, and finding other girls teams to play.

In order to build a strong women's professional baseball league you need to start at the youth level. Our Little League program has maybe 1 or 2 girls per age level in it. Somehow the rest of the girls have to be given the choice to play either baseball or softball on a girl's team. If there are not enough girls baseball teams in a little league, then they can travel to play girls from another league.

Playing little league on all-boys teams tends to drive girls over to softball IMO.

[NotAboutEgo]

In your state of Michigan last year, over 17,000 girls played high school varsity softball. The best players will move on and play college softball. How many? Perhaps a few hundred to several hundred.

Let me ask you this... how many women played softball in the 1800's and in the early 1900's? If females weren't shoved into playing softball in this century and the last century and were allowed to play baseball the whole time, what do you think the numbers would be? Do you think there'd be a different story if that was the case? Whay don't other countries such as Australia, Japan, and Canada have such problems with gender issues and baseball? Why do girls play at many levels in those countries without receiving so much resistance to it?

The history of how women got pushed into softball has everything to do with the numbers of females who play it compared to the numbers of females who play baseball, but things are changing.

Do you have numbers on how many women around the U.S. are playing baseball in women's leagues (and in men's leagues) at this time? How many of them would have relished the chance to play baseball at the youth level, in high school, in college, and beyond? Do you have numbers on how many women who've played softball previously that are converting over to baseball (regardless of what level)?

But in Michigan last year, only 7 girls played on high school varsity baseball teams.

Do you have numbers on how many girls tried or wanted to play baseball in high school, but were told they couldn't, were told they "have" softball which is a fair equivalent, and how many were ridiculed if they were allowed to play on their high school's team? How many girls think that they should play baseball if they want to, even when they are told softball is for them? How many are intimidated by the thought of being ridiculed if they attempt to try out for their school's baseball team?

Little League estimates that 100,000 girls between 7 and 12 play in their US baseball program. I couldn't find out how many girls nationwide play high school varsity baseball. If only 7 play in Michigan, then is it fair to say that a few hundred are still playing baseball six years after playing little league?

What happened to the other 99,000+ girls playing in little league? How come they (and their parents) aren't petitioning their school boards to add girl's baseball to the school sports program?

Perhaps they aren't petitioning their school boards because they don't realize they can or they are afraid of the ridicule and harassment they might face if they do so. Take a look at cases of the past where girls' parents have done this. Perhaps they aren't interested in doing all the leg work to make it happen. Perhaps they think it's a waste of time since only one college currently offers women the opportunity to play baseball (Saint Mary's in South Bend, Indiana), which I'm sure most don't know about, and there are no minor leagues or pro baseball leagues for women at this time.

Don't even get me going on Little League, Inc. How many boys across the country play softball as compared to girls who play baseball? Why did Little League start a separate boys' softball program but hasn't started a separate girls' baseball program... despite the fact that WAY more girls play baseball in the U.S. than boys play softball.

For more info on this, read...

http://www.sbbluesox.com/

Suppose enough high school girls do want to form a high school baseball team? The problems they will encounter are lack of school money for coaches and equipment, lack of field space, competition with softball, and finding other girls teams to play.

So, what you're saying is that it's impossible to do so, and therefore, it shouldn't be done, so no one should ever try doing something for the first time? Any kind of program that first starts out experiences these things. It's not unique to women's baseball or to women's anything. Competition with softball is not a valid reason for not starting girls' baseball. There are plenty of girls who are interested in playing baseball (many of them who'd rather play baseball over softball), but most have no where to play, unless they fight to get on a high school or little league team. And then there are those who haven't thought of the option of playing baseball, since it's engrained in their brains from the time they're born that softball is what for females, but when presented with the idea of playing baseball, they become interested.

In order to build a strong women's professional baseball league you need to start at the youth level. Our Little League program has maybe 1 or 2 girls per age level in it. Somehow the rest of the girls have to be given the choice to play either baseball or softball on a girl's team. If there are not enough girls baseball teams in a little league, then they can travel to play girls from another league.

Things need to happen at all levels, which they are and will continue to. Yes, starting girls teams at the youth level is one of the most important factors. More girls teams and leagues are popping up around the country. Now that there are several women's teams and leagues, girls can see that they don't have to stop playing baseball beyond their youth years, so that could be a motivating factor. It takes time to do it all, but if people keep creating opportunities, it will happen.

It's easier to start recreational teams and leagues, because there's no one to answer to for the most part. When trying to start women's teams in high school and college, you have the school board to deal with, let alone tax payers, students and parents who want to resist it, etc. Once enough of a recreational structure is in place, then it will be easier to start high school and college teams.

Playing little league on all-boys teams tends to drive girls over to softball IMO.

I agree with that statement. What do you think the biggest reason for this is? From my experience of going on 10 years of being involved with girls' and women's baseball... females would rather not be harassed when trying to play baseball, and that's what a lot of them face at the little league level and beyond. It also has to do with the fact that they've been brainwashed into thinking they have to play softball and can't play baseball, and therefore, they are intimidated by trying baseball on all-boys' baseball teams. I've worked with a lot of girls and women, so I know this for fact.

[NotAboutEgo]

"Maybe they would have been more successful if given more of a chance."

Regarding Toni Stone, I doubt it. At the beginning, for the first few games, opposing pitchers were literally paid to groove pitches to her and her league batting average was in the .260's (it dropped to the .250's the following year). And she got good coaching, too (her manager went out of the way to develop her talents...as a result, she became a very good fielder). Riley elaborates...

"While playing in the Negro Leagues, she was knocked down by pitchers, taken out on double plays by baserunners, and generally treated the same as the other ballplayers while on the field."

I think the Negro Leaguers really tried to give Toni Stone and Connie Morgan a shot. Also Mamie Johnson (probably the best of the three). It's just that Toni Stone was mediocre at best and Connie Morgan couldn't hit. With Mamie Johnson, it worked to some degree. I'm still looking for her league play pitching stats beyond W/L. I should note that all three played on men's teams, including Morgan before her stay with the all-girls team.

I was speaking of women in general. I'm sure a lot of the women who play baseball today are better than they were.

As for your views (and mine for that matter), I saw the whole thread on why baseball remained male-dominated or whatever it was called. You tend to go into long rants during debates. I prefer a different debate style, and thus am sticking to definding the facts, not the opinions.

Oh, I forgot about Pearl Barrett. According to Riley, she rarely played at all, and was basically signed as a gate attraction. When she did play, it was at first base. Her role seems to have been almost purely defensive.

It's fact that women have been dominated by men in this society AND in baseball throughout history. That's not opinion, and it is based on fact... through my personal experiences, through the experiences of other women I know and have played with and against, and through other sources. If anyone denies that, then they've been living in a box.

[Dalkowski110]

"That's not opinion, and it is based on fact..."

For future long, multi-post ranting and raving, I'd change that phrasing. The very definition of an opinion is a view that is based on fact. A fact is not "based on" a fact, it's merely a fact. Ironically, you've done nothing but state your opinions. Nothing wrong with that, it's your First Amendment Right to do so. But you're just stating opinions, not facts.

[TonyK]

"females would rather not be harassed when trying to play baseball, and that's what a lot of them face at the little league level and beyond. It also has to do with the fact that they've been brainwashed into thinking they have to play softball and can't play baseball."

I cannot imagine how I would have felt back when I was 12 if I was playing on an all-girls team in any sport. It wouldn't have been a whole lot of fun. The girl's mothers in our LL told me that this better competition (in LL) would prepare their daughters to be better softball players.

I still remember telling one of my OFers in LL minors once, "I told you she could hit!" He wouldn't believe me that the girl was capable of hitting until her EBH flew right past him.


"Let me ask you this... how many women played softball in the 1800's and in the early 1900's?"

Unless this is a trick question, the answer is zero. I believe softball wasn't played until the late 1890's, and the first players were men who played indoor baseball in gyms and armories using a large "soft" ball to reduce injuries. I don't know when women first began playing baseball.


"So, what you're saying is that it's impossible to do so, and therefore, it shouldn't be done, so no one should ever try doing something for the first time? "

No, if you read it again all I did was mention four obstacles in the way of forming a girls HS baseball team. Parents and their kids from our school have fought to try and get swimming and freshman basketball added as school sports. In our case, there were several girls who were competing in swimming meets through the YMCA.

I would like to see boys volleyball offered in my son's HS, but until he tells me enough boys want to play it, I'm not going to bang the drums.

What statistics do you have supporting the notions that many girls and young women really want to play baseball at the youth, school, and college levels?

[Baseball Mum]

What happened to the other 99,000+ girls playing in little league? How come they (and their parents) aren't petitioning their school boards to add girl's baseball to the school sports program? [QUOTE=TonyK]


Why do they have to have a girls baseball programme? Why can't they just play in the baseball in the teams that are already there? If they can trial and make the team, why can't they play?


[QUOTE=TonyK] Our Little League program has maybe 1 or 2 girls per age level in it. Somehow the rest of the girls have to be given the choice to play either baseball or softball on a girl's team. If there are not enough girls baseball teams in a little league, then they can travel to play girls from another league.

In our leagues here in Australia, we are likely to have 1 or 2 girls in most TEAMS in an age level, even up to 14s. This does drop off somewhat as they hit 16s, but the number who are staying is increasing year by year.

At the same time as this has happened, our Women's comp has got under way as well as gala days for 14yos. These have both, I think, had an effect on keeping girls in the game. Thing is, it's keeping them in the girls only game as well as the mixed game.

Our girls have never seemed to have as much of a battle as your girls seem to have had. Just this week there were American teams here - Under 16s and 18s. My daughter wasn't playing, but helping out. She had a considerable number of discussions with both the boys and their parents about the fact that she really does play baseball. She picked up their bats and swung them, and the boys had a difficult time coming to terms with seeing a girl swing a baseball bat instead of a softball bat. Thing is, she wouldn't have had that discussion with ANY of the Australian players or parents - it's usual enough here that it doesn't bode discussing - it's just normal.

Mind you, she was watching the cricket on the TV (our Australian bat and ball game) and one of the Australian coaches presumed they must have had it on because the boys or men were watching - he obviously doesn't come form a part of our country where girls understand and enjoy cricket, so maybe people in both countries have some way to go.

[TonyK]

"Why do they have to have a girls baseball programme? Why can't they just play in the baseball in the teams that are already there? If they can trial and make the team, why can't they play?"

They can but currently not too many girls would make our high school baseball teams where I live. The best players are still shorter and not faster than the average boy on the baseball team. The choice for our best girl player would be either to be the star pitcher/shortstop/hitter on the softball team, or to be somewhere in the middle of the baseball team. What happens to the other girls who get cut from the baseball team?

I see nothing wrong with having a girls high school baseball team.

Soccer is a sport where girls and boys often play on the same team, or compete against one another. My son used to play against girls a lot, but once high school came along, he seldom faces a girl on the opposing team.

It sounds like Australia does not have a strong girls softball program for ages 7 through 18, or has college softball? Maybe your influence will open eyes here in the US about girls playing baseball?

[Baseball Mum]

They can but currently not too many girls would make our high school baseball teams where I live. The best players are still shorter and not faster than the average boy on the baseball team. The choice for our best girl player would be either to be the star pitcher/shortstop/hitter on the softball team, or to be somewhere in the middle of the baseball team. What happens to the other girls who get cut from the baseball team?

Good to hear that they can play if they want to, but it sounds as though there may well be a number of girls watching in the stands because they either can't or don't want to break through the presumptions. It takes a pretty strong person to stand up to society's presumptions and rock the boat. At least here, while we have some of the same presumptions, it's usually only from people who don't know the game. Those who do are far more likely to look at talent. We've had a number of representative teams where the girls have been at middle or higher in the team. And not every team is going to be made up of stars - people who can do the job they've been asked to do should be what you're looking for in a team. If you could only get into a team if you were the best player, we'd have very few team sports able to be played.

We tend to only get girls trying out for the school team who are strong at the Saturday game (see the note below). In that case I've never seen a girl knocked back, they have always had the skills to make their way into the team and do very well once in it.

Soccer is a sport where girls and boys often play on the same team, or compete against one another. My son used to play against girls a lot, but once high school came along, he seldom faces a girl on the opposing team.

Here soccer splits into girls and boys teams at our high school level (your middle school level). My children's other activities are various equestrian sports and music, and they are both unisex all the way through the ranks. I'm pretty sure we didn't set out to arrange things that way, but with having a number of children of each sex it has certainly made our life easier, and, I think, set our family up for seeing that if you want something you can go out and get it, no matter what society might at first say.

It sounds like Australia does not have a strong girls softball program for ages 7 through 18, or has college softball? Maybe your influence will open eyes here in the US about girls playing baseball?

We do have a strong Saturday softball programme, and many many girls play it. A considerable number of boys play softball too. Our Saturday baseball programme is also very strong and growing by the year. I don't know of the numbers of boys playing softball as opposed to girls play baseball, but it would be interesting to find out. The two camps tend to be very different. They each see their game as being the best (and rightly so) and will either not play the other game or only play it when their game of choice is not available for some reason.

In just about every sport in the country our sporting programme runs on the back of the Saturday competitions, not school competitions. The only exception I can think of is rowing with some of our top private schools. In schools, it would be fair to say that neither softball nor baseball are as strong as the various football codes, but they are growing.

I don't know if there are university softball competitions, though I know that there are some unis with baseball teams, though they play as another team in the weekend Major League competitions against teams from various regions. It's not a strictly university competition with only university teams. There is at least one university here that has given baseball scholarships to girls playing at high level in both womens and mixed competition.

[NotAboutEgo]

"females would rather not be harassed when trying to play baseball, and that's what a lot of them face at the little league level and beyond. It also has to do with the fact that they've been brainwashed into thinking they have to play softball and can't play baseball."

I cannot imagine how I would have felt back when I was 12 if I was playing on an all-girls team in any sport. It wouldn't have been a whole lot of fun. The girl's mothers in our LL told me that this better competition (in LL) would prepare their daughters to be better softball players.

I still remember telling one of my OFers in LL minors once, "I told you she could hit!" He wouldn't believe me that the girl was capable of hitting until her EBH flew right past him.


"Let me ask you this... how many women played softball in the 1800's and in the early 1900's?"

Unless this is a trick question, the answer is zero. I believe softball wasn't played until the late 1890's, and the first players were men who played indoor baseball in gyms and armories using a large "soft" ball to reduce injuries. I don't know when women first began playing baseball.

Exactly. My point is... things progress over time. The numbers of women who played softball in the first half of the 20th Century are a lot different than the numbers now. The same is true of females playing baseball today compared to how many females played in other eras. There may be few girls playing baseball in LL in a lot of areas, but perhaps a lot of girls and their parents don't know they have the choice of playing baseball, perhaps some are joining girls teams and leagues that are starting, some are playing on women's teams when they are a mere 12 and 13 years old, etc. Women's and girls' baseball in the U.S. is still in development.


"So, what you're saying is that it's impossible to do so, and therefore, it shouldn't be done, so no one should ever try doing something for the first time? "

No, if you read it again all I did was mention four obstacles in the way of forming a girls HS baseball team. Parents and their kids from our school have fought to try and get swimming and freshman basketball added as school sports. In our case, there were several girls who were competing in swimming meets through the YMCA.

Are there not enough interested kids to establish those programs, or is it not working because of something else?

I would like to see boys volleyball offered in my son's HS, but until he tells me enough boys want to play it, I'm not going to bang the drums.

What statistics do you have supporting the notions that many girls and young women really want to play baseball at the youth, school, and college levels?

But, don't you think it's worth a try to advertise that you are trying to start a boys' volleyball team to see how it goes? It may take more than one try at it. Some boys may feel the same way that girls who want to play baseball do... because of how our society views things and likes to segregate things by gender, they may feel intimidated to sign up, since volleyball has been seen as a female sport for so long. If just a few boys say they want to play, then perhaps others will, too. Sometimes you have to try to start something before an overwhelming number stands up to say they want to play.

A few of us in Southeastern Michigan are working on starting a girls' youth baseball league. We are starting by advertising it in as many ways possible that don't cost a lot of money. It may take soem time to get it going, but more likely than not, it will work. A woman, her husband, and her daughter (who started playing baseball on women's teams when she about 13 or 14) palced ads in local papers to form a 14U girls' baseball team from Chicago to participate in an international girls'/women's baseball tourney at Disney World, and from those ads they were able to put together a team in about a month. The last time I talked to them, which was a couple of months ago, they had 40 girls signed up to play in a league, and I have heard that they have more now and are building a good program there.

I know it's harder to start things in schools, but perhaps you could say you want to start a boys' volleyball program and need to see how many say they are interested. Just an idea. Perhaps you have tried this already.

I don't expect a bunch of girls to come to us saying they want to play baseball without them knowing there is a program in the works. Once they find out someone is starting a league, then they will come forth.

I don't have specific statistics because I'm not a statistics person, but since 1998, I have been involved with women's baseball and youth baseball events. For about 4 years, my women's team has volunteered for a youth baseball event that the Tigers and other organizations hold at Comerica Park each summer. There are around 500 kids at this event, and around half are girls. Several of them ask us if there's baseball for girls, are interested in playing, and ask why there's not a pro women's league.

We are involved with other baseball related events, and through our involvement and talking with people, we can clearly see that girls are interested in playing baseball.

For the women's side of it, I have been playing organized baseball on women's teams since 1999, I have played around the country and in Canada, I am very involved with women's baseball, and I have played in many women's tournaments in different states. I don't need to have statistics to tell me that women want to play baseball. I'm in the middle of the development of women's baseball, so I experience it and live it.

As with most anything else, when a new idea or product is introduced, it usually takes a while for society to accept it. Women's baseball is nothing new. It's one thing that our society has had a problem accepting. I'm hoping that will change soon.

[NotAboutEgo]

There's an annual event held at Disney's Wide World of Sports Complex in Orlando each February, and one part of it is a girls' baseball clinic. It's called Girls-N-Sport Day and has been going on for more than 5 years. I don't know the exact numbers of girls who sign up for it, but I was thinking it's around 500. I just looked at the registration form that's available on the AAU web site, and it says that the first 1,200 girls to sign up will be able to attend. The event is open to registered Girl Scouts and female AAU registered athletes.

I've been asked to be a coach for the baseball portion of it for many years and have not been able to until this year. It will be really nice to work with girls and to teach them baseball fundamentals and mechanics.

This is one example that shows that girls are interested in baseball and other sports. If opportunities are available to them, then they will start participating in them.

[NotAboutEgo]

"That's not opinion, and it is based on fact..."

For future long, multi-post ranting and raving, I'd change that phrasing. The very definition of an opinion is a view that is based on fact. A fact is not "based on" a fact, it's merely a fact. Ironically, you've done nothing but state your opinions. Nothing wrong with that, it's your First Amendment Right to do so. But you're just stating opinions, not facts.

The things I've stated about men dominating women in baseball (by banning them from this and that and telling them they can't play baseball) and in many other things is fact... based on my personal life experiences and the life experiences of other women. When you live something and experience it, you need no proof from other sources, and you don't need to read it out of a book.

Ranting and raving... that's your opinion.

[Dalkowski110]

"Ranting and raving... that's your opinion."

It's one I'll bet a lot of people agree with, I'll tell ya that. And just because my life experiences (because let me tell you something, I've had my own share of 'em) may reflect one point of view or another doesn't mean you'd automatically agree with it, or even should...you said:

"When you live something and experience it, you need no proof from other sources, and you don't need to read it out of a book."

For the most part, I completely and totally disagree. In some circumstances, yes, I do agree, actually, but not with most. Ironically, it's my own life experiences that make me disagree with that statement. Like I said earlier, I don't want to get involved with debating people who merely rant and rave. I'm now out of this one.

[TonyK]

"But, don't you think it's worth a try to advertise that you are trying to start a boys' volleyball team to see how it goes? It may take more than one try at it. Some boys may feel the same way that girls who want to play baseball do... because of how our society views things and likes to segregate things by gender, they may feel intimidated to sign up, since volleyball has been seen as a female sport for so long. If just a few boys say they want to play, then perhaps others will, too."

Volleyball isn't a female sport in my opinion since boys and men play it all levels right up to the professional level. I was using volleyball just as an example of a sport not offered to my son. I don't know if he has ever played it in gym or not. At 6' 1" and still growing, I imagine he might like it.



"I've been asked to be a coach for the baseball portion of it for many years and have not been able to until this year. It will be really nice to work with girls and to teach them baseball fundamentals and mechanics."

That sounds like a lot of fun and good luck down at the Disney Wide World of Sports Complex. My son played there in a baseball tournament at Christmas time some years ago, and we enjoyed the facilities and all of the sites. You might want to study where all the girls come from and make sure they know of opportunities to play ball...travel ball, Little League etc.

Many boy's baseball programs began because a dissatisfied group broke away from Little League Inc. Girl's youth baseball may have to do the same thing if it wants to grow and thrive?

I can tell that you enjoy playing baseball and prefer it to softball. It makes sense to me that women would rather play using a smaller ball too.

I know if I had my choice of which sport to watch on TV or in person, women's softball or women's baseball, that I would much rather watch baseball. The reason is a softball pitcher dominates the women's game due to the shorter distance they have to pitch from. And the chanting gets to me after a few innings.

[TonyK]

"We do have a strong Saturday softball programme, and many many girls play it. A considerable number of boys play softball too. Our Saturday baseball programme is also very strong and growing by the year. I don't know of the numbers of boys playing softball as opposed to girls play baseball, but it would be interesting to find out. The two camps tend to be very different. They each see their game as being the best (and rightly so) and will either not play the other game or only play it when their game of choice is not available for some reason. "

I would say that in the US 95% of young boys play baseball vs 5% of boys who play softball. But, that completely turns around once they reach their 20's and 30's. Then the numbers look more like 95% of men play softball, and 5%of men play baseball. How does that compare to Australia?

[NotAboutEgo]

"But, don't you think it's worth a try to advertise that you are trying to start a boys' volleyball team to see how it goes? It may take more than one try at it. Some boys may feel the same way that girls who want to play baseball do... because of how our society views things and likes to segregate things by gender, they may feel intimidated to sign up, since volleyball has been seen as a female sport for so long. If just a few boys say they want to play, then perhaps others will, too."

Volleyball isn't a female sport in my opinion since boys and men play it all levels right up to the professional level. I was using volleyball just as an example of a sport not offered to my son. I don't know if he has ever played it in gym or not. At 6' 1" and still growing, I imagine he might like it.

I don't see volleyball as a female sport, either... because of the reasons you stated and also because anyone should be able to play any sport they desire to play. Unfortunately, some high schools and even colleges offer volleyball only to girls, so in those places it's seen as a sport for females. I don't get it.

In my high school, we played coed volleyball in phys. ed. class, but the school has a volleyball team only for girls. Why is it OK to offer sports to both genders in phys. ed., where both genders play together, but it's not offered as a school sport to both genders?

"I've been asked to be a coach for the baseball portion of it for many years and have not been able to until this year. It will be really nice to work with girls and to teach them baseball fundamentals and mechanics."

That sounds like a lot of fun and good luck down at the Disney Wide World of Sports Complex. My son played there in a baseball tournament at Christmas time some years ago, and we enjoyed the facilities and all of the sites. You might want to study where all the girls come from and make sure they know of opportunities to play ball...travel ball, Little League etc.

Thanks. I've been there for Spring Training games. It's a very nice complex. I was thinking the same... keep track of where the girls come from. I'm not sure if they are all from Florida or if some come from other states. I imagine it would be open to girls from any state.

"Many boy's baseball programs began because a dissatisfied group broke away from Little League Inc. Girl's youth baseball may have to do the same thing if it wants to grow and thrive?

Yes, you are right. Many girls' leagues are being created outside of the LL structure. John Kovach of the South Bend Women's Baseball team and founder of a women's baseball program at Saint Mary's U. was going after them to see why they have not created a separate girls' baseball program since hundreds of girls across the country are playing baseball. They gave him all sorts of excuses. I think he's dropped pursuing that any further and is working with others to create baseball opportunities for girls. We are working with the lady from Chicago who is building a girls' program there, with the American Women's Baseball Federation, the Women's Baseball League, with USA Baseball, and with others to get it going.

I can tell that you enjoy playing baseball and prefer it to softball. It makes sense to me that women would rather play using a smaller ball too.

I know if I had my choice of which sport to watch on TV or in person, women's softball or women's baseball, that I would much rather watch baseball. The reason is a softball pitcher dominates the women's game due to the shorter distance they have to pitch from. And the chanting gets to me after a few innings.

Yep. Baseball is definitely one of my biggest passions in life... not just playing it but teaching it and also helping to create more opportunities for females. I knew when I was a kid that I'd be involved somehow, someday. To me, baseball is the real game... the only game. Softball is similar in ways but is a very different game at the same time. If someone prefers to play both, they should have that option and opportunity. For those of us who prefer to just play baseball, we should have that option, also.

I agree. Fastpitch softball is all about the pitcher. For me, there's not enough action because of this. It's kind of like slowpitch being about homeruns... no bunting, no stealing, no leading off, no pass balls, etc. When you look at the BA's of the pro women softball players, most are in the .200's... even the top BA's.

A couple of years ago, a few of us from my women's baseball team attended some collegiate fastpitch games to try and recruit players for baseball. It was the first time I had been near fastpitch since I was in college... umpteen years ago. I couldn't believe how weird it felt to watch fastpitch... after going so long without seeing it and with being involved with baseball for quite a while. It was like a culture shock. I can't believe how close the 3rd basemen stand to home plate. There aren't many hits, and the field is soooooo small!

I love baseball... the bigger field, smaller ball, true leading off, overhand pitching, having more opportunities to steal, etc. It's so much more of a game to me.

[NotAboutEgo]

"We do have a strong Saturday softball programme, and many many girls play it. A considerable number of boys play softball too. Our Saturday baseball programme is also very strong and growing by the year. I don't know of the numbers of boys playing softball as opposed to girls play baseball, but it would be interesting to find out. The two camps tend to be very different. They each see their game as being the best (and rightly so) and will either not play the other game or only play it when their game of choice is not available for some reason. "

I would say that in the US 95% of young boys play baseball vs 5% of boys who play softball. But, that completely turns around once they reach their 20's and 30's. Then the numbers look more like 95% of men play softball, and 5%of men play baseball. How does that compare to Australia?

That's so true. I often wonder why more adults, especially men who have played baseball when they were growing up, don't play baseball instead of or at the same time as playing softball. I know of many men in my area who participate in MLB fantasy camps who play competitive adult baseball in the MSBL. It's a big league around here, but I know there are many more men than that who play softball.

[TonyK]

"I don't see volleyball as a female sport, either... because of the reasons you stated and also because anyone should be able to play any sport they desire to play."

You caught me on that one and I agree. We had a girl play on our high school hockey team, and she earned a Div 1 scholarship to a top school.

At large schools they can accommodate many sports since they have so many kids that want to play. They could easily have both a girls softball and a girls baseball team if they wanted.


"I know of many men in my area who participate in MLB fantasy camps who play competitive adult baseball in the MSBL."

Adult baseball seems to be mainly near the largest cities. I guess what happened is semi-pro leagues from the 40's and 50's only took one team per town so only a dozen top players got to keep playing. Softball must have stepped right in and offered coed factory leagues and beer leagues. Once a boy graduates from high school in my town he is done playing baseball unless he can play college ball. The best players move on to fast-pitch softball.


"I couldn't believe how weird it felt to watch fastpitch... after going so long without seeing it and with being involved with baseball for quite a while. It was like a culture shock."

Those of us who coached the youngest little league players feel the same way when we go back and watch those kids play today. I wonder what the parents are all screaming about, like I wasn't just as bad in my time.

There are plenty of other coaching sites that can offer you advice if you need it.

[NotAboutEgo]

There used to be a bunch of men's (not sure if any women played on them) fastpitch teams around here, but they disappeared quite a while ago. Not sure why it happened. I've talked to many guys who used to play in those leagues, and from my understanding, they were very competitive. Beer leagues seem to be the norm now.

My mom, sister, and I tried starting a girls' hockey team in a small town where we grew up. Back then, we only had basic computers and no internet, so it was hard spreading the word. We made signs and posted them around town, and we had the schools announce it to students. The people who ran the existing hockey league that only had boys' teams in it were all for it and supported us. The only reason it didn't fly was because not enough girls signed up. But, when I was in class and the teachers announced that we were trying to start a girls' hockey team, I remember many boys' laughing about it and making fun of us. I can remember how it made me feel. The funny thing is, my sister and I always played hockey on the lakes in the area, against boys who played hockey, and we never lost.

Anyway, many things that are trying to get established have many obstacles to overcome.

Parents who scream at their kids, at the other team, at the coaches and umpires are only teaching their kids to be the same way and validating it when they end up acting like them. They have no clue. Kids should be learning how to play the game and being part of a team and not worrying about winning so much. Some people are so bent on winning that they turn into mosters.

If you could post those web sites, that I will check them out.

[TonyK]

"If you could post those web sites, then I will check them out."

I think you know about eteamz. Here are a few more:

infosports.com
baseball-excellence.com
hsbaseballweb.com

The poster named cong also has a nice website that you can access via his profile.

[NotAboutEgo]

"If you could post those web sites, then I will check them out."

I think you know about eteamz. Here are a few more:

infosports.com
baseball-excellence.com
hsbaseballweb.com

The poster named cong also has a nice website that you can access via his profile.

Thanks. I'll take a look at them.

[digglahhh]

Dalkowski,

Let's be fair and stop quibbling about semantics; the notion that this is, and has historically been, a patriarchal society in which women have been denied opportunity is a fact.

Anecdotal experiences are irrelevant, though en masse they gain strength. But such a statement is not based on anecdotal or personal experience. There's extensive documentation of that phenomenon. Voting laws, property laws, domestic abuse laws, the need for Title 9 (perhaps the most appropriate in this specific debate)...

Whether or not women can compete at the MLB level, in the past, present or future; that's an opinion. Perhaps the lack of women with that level of talent is related to the male dominated society, and specifically,the sports world. Perhaps it is not; maybe it's due to biological considerations. Those are opinions. One can say that the historical oppression of women is not the cause of their lack of presence in top level baseball, but he/she can't deny the oppression itself. That is a matter of fact, and public record.

[NotAboutEgo]

Dalkowski,

Let's be fair and stop quibbling about semantics; the notion that this is, and has historically been, a patriarchal society in which women have been denied opportunity is a fact.

Anecdotal experiences are irrelevant, though en masse they gain strength. But such a statement is not based on anecdotal or personal experience. There's extensive documentation of that phenomenon. Voting laws, property laws, domestic abuse laws, the need for Title 9 (perhaps the most appropriate in this specific debate)...

Whether or not women can compete at the MLB level, in the past, present or future; that's an opinion. Perhaps the lack of women with that level of talent is related to the male dominated society, and specifically,the sports world. Perhaps it is not; maybe it's due to biological considerations. Those are opinions. One can say that the historical oppression of women is not the cause of their lack of presence in top level baseball, but he/she can't deny the oppression itself. That is a matter of fact, and public record.

Thank you, Digglahhh. I was going to cite the movie "Iron Jawed Angels" if discussion continued under this thread. It's a great example of how women have been treated throughout history. I'm not saying that other people, whether it be gender-related or otherwise, haven't been treated badly, too. The movie is an example of this, and it relates to what we've been discussing.

I believe that whether women can compete in MLB may have to do with biological factors to a degree (maybe to a small degree), but I believe it has a whole lot more to do with the male dominated society we live in. When someone isn't given a chance to do something, no one can know whether they can do it until given the chance, and also, they need to be provided the SAME opportunities all the way through for it to be a fair comparison. Unless the bans on women playing in the minors and in MLB are lifted, no one will ever know. Whether someone can compete at the MLB level has way more to do with ability, talent, experience, knowledge of the game, desire to play baseball and learn and grow with it, how society's ways affect each person, and what kind of mental makeup and character one has. Adjusting to speeds and all that is a personal thing that has NOTHING to do with gender.

I have caught for guys who throw in the 80's. Was it more difficult than catching someone who throws with less velocity... no. It's actually easier to catch someone who throws faster than to catch someone who throws very slowly. It's simply a matter of adjusting your focus, becoming quicker with your catching, adjusting to the higher velocity, and seeing the ball sooner than you would when catching someone who throws slower. It's the same as with hitting off someone who throws faster. You need to learn to be quicker at everything. This has absolutely nothing to do with gender but has everything to do with each person and their abilities, talent, experience, and how they react to their personal life experiences, and to society's ways.

Not every guy in the world is a great athlete.