The Astros dirty secret.

[john1972]

"We all know that almost everyone a few years ago used speed. There was a story going around in Houston that Biggio and Bagwell and some others had big cups of coffee before they played spiked with speed. One story said their was a big bowl of pills sitting in the locker room when the players came in so they could get what they wanted and needed. I don't know if I believe that or not, but I do think for sure they did speed."

Someone posted this on the MLB Astros website. I have also come across many other accounts, albeit anectdotal, which should raise much suspicion surrounding the integrity of how such named players conducted themselves during their careers. Hopefully the truth will finally be revealed when the steroid list is released, but I doubt it.

[RuthMayBond]

"We all know that almost everyone a few years ago used speed. There was a story going around in Houston that Biggio and Bagwell and some others had big cups of coffee before they played spiked with speed. One story said their was a big bowl of pills sitting in the locker room when the players came in so they could get what they wanted and needed. I don't know if I believe that or not, but I do think for sure they did speed."

Someone posted this on the MLB Astros website. I have also come across many other accounts, albeit anectdotal, which should raise much suspicion surrounding the integrity of how such named players conducted themselves during their careers. Hopefully the truth will finally be revealed when the steroid list is released, but I doubt it.As long as no secrets about Roberto Alomar come out :rolleyes:

[Old Sweater]

There is no such thing as a secret. Looks like Old Hen Gossip to me knocking 2 very fine players.

[SamtheBravesFan]

And he drags in Bagwell to bash Biggio, for shammmmmmmmeeee. :p

[EvanAparra]

As long as no secrets about Roberto Alomar come out :rolleyes:

That's what I thought when I read this too. If Alomar was tied to speed, he'd say it didn't matter.

[slugger33]

I bet almost all MLB players have tried speed.

[RuthMayBond]

"We all know that almost everyone a few years ago used speed. There was a story going around in Houston that Biggio and Bagwell and some others had big cups of coffee before they played spiked with speed. One story said their was a big bowl of pills sitting in the locker room when the players came in so they could get what they wanted and needed. I don't know if I believe that or not, but I do think for sure they did speed."

Someone posted this on the MLB Astros website. I have also come across many other accounts, albeit anectdotal, which should raise much suspicion surrounding the integrity of how such named players conducted themselves during their careers. Hopefully the truth will finally be revealed when the steroid list is released, but I doubt it.Their spit doesn't travel as far as another former big leaguer's, I'd credit that guy's extra distance to, uh . . . ;)

[Old Sweater]

I bet almost all MLB players have tried speed.

Not Cecil Fielder. Or he masked it real well.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Not Cecil Fielder. Or he masked it real well.

How else was he able to steal those two bases in 1996?! :laugh

[FatAngel]

When batters try to stretch a single into a double without any realistic chance or runners decide to score from second on their own and being out by about 20 feet, I often thought "He must be on drugs !".
I guess those pills helping you overcome the tireness that mounts during the season also have their side effects on judgement ;)
Regarding Fielder: my guess is he needed greenies to just get around the bases station-by-station :D

How is the use of amphetamines in baseball a dirty secret, and why one of the Astros ? Everybody knows this for a long time now.

[Old Sweater]

When batters try to stretch a single into a double without any realistic chance or runners decide to score from second on their own and being out by about 20 feet, I often thought "He must be on drugs !".


Here is what the players say.......This is from a ESPN article.

When a player gets thrown out by 15 feet trying to stretch a single into a double, it's not uncommon for someone in the dugout to joke, "The greenies must have lied to him."

[TonyK]

How else was he able to steal those two bases in 1996?! :laugh

Fielder probably never even realized he was stealing the bases until after he stood up and replaced the crater he created while sliding into second base.

[plask_stirlac]

Speed is amphetamines, so that's not that surprising. They banned them last year, they were widely believed to be used dating WAY back, like even the stars of 40-50 years ago or longer. There could be undetectable amphetamines, still.

[Skin & Bones]

Speed is amphetamines, so that's not that surprising. They banned them last year, they were widely believed to be used dating WAY back, like even the stars of 40-50 years ago or longer. There could be undetectable amphetamines, still.

Plastic - There is.

Dr. Gary Wadler of the World Anti-Doping Agency says undetectable amphetamines are already available.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/08/25/amph.friday/2.html

[RuthMayBond]

Speed is amphetamines
That's the only speed Fielder might have ever had

[Go Stros]

Someone posted this on the MLB Astros website.

Must be true then.

[RuthMayBond]

"We all know that almost everyone a few years ago used speed. There was a story going around in Houston that Biggio and Bagwell and some others had big cups of coffee before they played spiked with speed. One story said their was a big bowl of pills sitting in the locker room when the players came in so they could get what they wanted and needed. I don't know if I believe that or not, but I do think for sure they did speed."

Someone posted this on the MLB Astros website.Someone named john197 ? . . . wait a minute ;)

[FatAngel]

Speed is amphetamines, so that's not that surprising. They banned them last year, they were widely believed to be used dating WAY back, like even the stars of 40-50 years ago or longer. There could be undetectable amphetamines, still.

Yup. What has changed over the years are their purpose. In the 50-70´s it was used to enchance the chances at bat. Meanwhile, it has been scientifically proven that they don´t.
Today they are used to simply get through the entire 162-game season, to suppress the tiring.

[Skin & Bones]

Yup. What has changed over the years are their purpose. In the 50-70´s it was used to enchance the chances at bat. Meanwhile, it has been scientifically proven that they don´t.
Today they are used to simply get through the entire 162-game season, to suppress the tiring.

I agree and disagree. I believe some also use them to enhance athletic performance. They are used to increase energy, alertness, and quickness - Hiddengem ( the ballplayer who comes on this forum) said that many ballplayers today still take greenies, and he himself has seen players increase their batspeed after taking one - And pitchers throwing harder. Anti-doping Expert Gary Wadler has repeatedly said that they are widely used today, and that they are in certain aspects even more performance enhancing then steroids.

[FatAngel]

Skin, what amphetamines do is make you feel better. Thus performance can be linked to amphetamines, but they do not increase your bat speed, etc.
I remember a study with college students. Before a difficult exam one group took amphetamines, a second placebo and a third nothing. The observed effect: those who took speed all said they could memorize things better. However, there was no significant difference in the marks of any group. The sole effect was that the amphetamine-treated students felt and behaved like kings during verbal exams.

[Skin & Bones]

Skin, what amphetamines do is make you feel better. Thus performance can be linked to amphetamines, but they do not increase your bat speed, etc.
I remember a study with college students. Before a difficult exam one group took amphetamines, a second placebo and a third nothing. The observed effect: those who took speed all said they could memorize things better. However, there was no significant difference in the marks of any group. The sole effect was that the amphetamine-treated students felt and behaved like kings during verbal exams.

Do you mind telling me what study your referring to? Because I've never heard of such a study.

A quick google search on Amphetamines performance enhancing benefits links me to several articles ( and a few studies) conclusively proven that they indeed enhance athletic performance.

Here's one:To many anti-doping experts, as well as players, there is no question that amphetamines enhance performance. A landmark 1960 study at Harvard University found that among swimmers, throwers and runners given amphetamines, 75% of the athletes showed improvement in their performances.


"Yes, they actually work," Wadler said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/260756p-223278c.html

Another: By speeding up the body, amphetamines may boost reaction time, an important factor in sports like running. "If you're really stimulated, you might hear the starter's gun a little bit sooner, or you might react to it faster," said Dr. Doug Rollins, associate director of the Center for Human Toxicology at the University of Utah and manager of the doping-control program at the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City.

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,63562,00.html

And what Anti-Doping expert Gary Wadler has to say about them:But Gary Wadler, a board member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a professor of medicine at New York University, has argued that amphetamines may be more performance-enhancing than steroids, and habitual use of amphetamines can result in addiction. They also can lead to diminished appetite and sleeplessness.

And Caroll of BP:performance enhancement is performance enhancement, and [there is] a clearer relationship between uppers and better play than there is with steroids."
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/10/02/a_pill_more_bitter_than_steroids/?page=full

Again, I fail to see any evidence that Amphetamines do not enhance athletic performance - A quick google search has many studies and quotes from anti-doping experts conclusively proving that they do.

As to Greenies increasing Batspeed - Again, Hiddengem the professional ballplayer who comes on this site said he himself has seen players report quicker batspeed after taking a greenie - So if you want to argue that issue, argue it with him, not me.

[FatAngel]

First of all, I want to apologoze if you were offended by my articulation.
But all amphetamines really do is keeping you fresh. Off course you throw harder when you feel bettter. What I was trying to say was that greenies do not increase bat speed, etc., they help maintain it.

P.S. studies on this topic are countless. I wonder how you couldn´t google them.

[SamtheBravesFan]

First of all, I want to apologoze if you were offended by my articulation.
But all amphetamines really do is keeping you fresh. Off course you throw harder when you feel bettter. What I was trying to say was that greenies do not increase bat speed, etc., they help maintain it.

P.S. studies on this topic are countless. I wonder how you couldn´t google them.

http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/writehigh.asp

According to Snopes, it's all just an urban legend.

[west coast orange and black]

fatangel: all amphetamines really do is keeping you fresh .... [they] do not increase bat speed, etc., they help maintain it.

re bat speed while on speed:
to be able to maintain bs when otherwise it would be lessened amounts to being faster.

(because all world-class sprinters are within a hair's breath of each other's talent, it is said that it is not the fastest who wins, but the one who slows the slowest.)

[FatAngel]

fatangel: all amphetamines really do is keeping you fresh .... [they] do not increase bat speed, etc., they help maintain it.

re bat speed while on speed:
to be able to maintain bs when otherwise it would be lessened amounts to being faster.

Yes, exactly. That´s the difference to steroids. They do not make you stronger. That is what I tried to say.

[dmbfan]

Amphetamines, or speed, are stimulants that heighten the Central Nervous System. As a result, anyone who takes speed, has a heighten alertness. Essentially what this would mean for sports, in this case baseball, would be that any player under the influence of amphetamines would be able to have a quicker response time to stimuli in their environment. This translates into quicker reactions in swinging a bat to a ball that is pitched 60 feet, 6 inches. So, no, it is not surprising that players would take amphetamines to help both with fatigue from a long season or to assist with reaction time because batting .280 or .310 can be the difference between making $4 million or $15 million.

[Skin & Bones]

Amphetamines, or speed, are stimulants that heighten the Central Nervous System. As a result, anyone who takes speed, has a heighten alertness. Essentially what this would mean for sports, in this case baseball, would be that any player under the influence of amphetamines would be able to have a quicker response time to stimuli in their environment. This translates into quicker reactions in swinging a bat to a ball that is pitched 60 feet, 6 inches. So, no, it is not surprising that players would take amphetamines to help both with fatigue from a long season or to assist with reaction time because batting .280 or .310 can be the difference between making $4 million or $15 million.

Dmb - This makes total sense. Good post.

And Fatangel, again, I'm not the one saying Greenies increase batspeed, I'm just saying what I HEARD from the professional ballplayer who vists this site.

Edit: And the comparison to steroids is pointless. They are two different type's of PED'S, and shouldn't be compared. This however, doesn't downplay Greenies performance enhancing attributes.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Amphetamines, or speed, are stimulants that heighten the Central Nervous System. As a result, anyone who takes speed, has a heighten alertness. Essentially what this would mean for sports, in this case baseball, would be that any player under the influence of amphetamines would be able to have a quicker response time to stimuli in their environment. This translates into quicker reactions in swinging a bat to a ball that is pitched 60 feet, 6 inches. So, no, it is not surprising that players would take amphetamines to help both with fatigue from a long season or to assist with reaction time because batting .280 or .310 can be the difference between making $4 million or $15 million.

What you say is true, amphetimines can be advantageous in some respects. But they can also cause some side effects, restlessness, increase or decrease in blood pressure, insomnia, confusion, hallucinations to name some.

I certainly agree that they should have been banned long ago. But.... if I was foolish enough and had total disregard for my health I think if I made a choice, greenies or steroids, to gain advantage to improve performance I would go with steroids.
Why just take a quick boost when steroids can build muscle mass, add body weight, shorten recover time from injuries and add built in strength.

Both are no good but it appears that steroids are much more advantageous than amphetimines.

[Skin & Bones]

What you say is true, amphetimines can be advantageous in some respects. But they can also cause some side effects, restlessness, increase or decrease in blood pressure, insomnia, confusion, hallucinations to name some.

I certainly agree that they should have been banned long ago. But.... if I was foolish enought o have total disregard for my health I think if I made a choice, greenies or steroids, to gain advantage to improve performance I would go with steroids.
Why just take a quick boost when steroids can build muscle mass, add body weight, shorten recover time from injuries and add built in strength.

Both are no good but it appears that steroids are much more advantageous than amphetimines.

Well, it depends Shoeless.

If your looking for an immediate benefit for tomorrow's game, Greenies is the way to go. Steroids don't work right away, Greenies do.

If your looking for a long-time extensive workout regimen, then steroids is the way to go.

Look no further than Jim Leyritz who took Amphetamines after a major hangover and was substituting for Don Mattingly.

I came in. I was hung over, sleeping by my locker. And all of a sudden, [Don] Mattingly came to me and said, 'Hey, you're in the lineup.' And I went, 'What?' He goes, 'Yeah, I just hurt my back.'

"Now I'm walking around, I'm going, 'I don't know how I'm going to do this. There's no way that I can go play this game today.' I ran into my teammate who I knew had some of the 'little helpers,' as they called them.

"He said, 'Take one of these. It should help. It'll take the edge off.'

"So sure enough, I took one. He goes, 'OK, you can take two, but no more than two.' So I popped one more, and I went out and went 3-for-4 with two homers."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2476681

According to retrosheet.org, Leyritz is referencing a Saturday, June 30 game in 1990 against the White Sox, where he went 3-for-5 with two homers and four RBI.

[holyroman]

john 1972, You are pathetic.
truly a sad case.

[ESPNFan]

Well, it depends Shoeless.

If your looking for an immediate benefit for tomorrow's game, Greenies is the way to go. Steroids don't work right away, Greenies do.

If your looking for a long-time extensive workout regimen, then steroids is the way to go.

Unless they make you feel like your having a heart attack or sick to your stomach, which for some people they do.

The don't work the same for everyone because its effecting the neuro transmitters of the brain (dopamine & norepinephrine particularly). If the illusions of euphoria and power don't take all your left with is the realisation that your heart is beating out of your chest. And anything that regularly effects your perception isn't going to be enhancing for long. There is a reason why they have the expression "the greenies must have lied to him".

Couple that with the numerous issues that dependancy brings to the table and its a no brainer in favor of steroids.

[Skin & Bones]

Unless they make you feel like your having a heart attack or sick to your stomach, which for some people they do.

The don't work the same for everyone because its effecting the neuro transmitters of the brain (dopamine & norepinephrine particularly). If the illusions of euphoria and power don't take all your left with is the realisation that your heart is beating out of your chest. And anything that regularly effects your perception isn't going to be enhancing for long. There is a reason why they have the expression "the greenies must have lied to him".

Couple that with the numerous issues that dependancy brings to the table and its a no brainer in favor of steroids.

Ok Doctor:waving

[Old Sweater]

The Yakees dirty little secert.

Joe Dimaggio drank coffee in the dugout.

You heard it here first. Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[ESPNFan]

Ok Doctor:waving

Nope not a Doctor.
You don't have to be one to know the facts however. :laugh

[ESPNFan]

The Yakees dirty little secert.

Joe Dimaggio drank coffee in the dugout.

You heard it here first. Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.

:laugh Classic

[john1972]

john 1972, You are pathetic.
truly a sad case.

Not as bad as this guy:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/44948.php
I actually think there must be some truth to this story. I can't imagine someone being able to concoct a story this outrageous.

[Old Sweater]

Not as bad as this guy:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/44948.php
I actually think there must be some truth to this story. I can't imagine someone being able to concoct a story this outrageous.

I don't think a site called CraigBiggiosucks.com is a reliable source.

[mwiggins]

Not as bad as this guy:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/44948.php
I actually think there must be some truth to this story. I can't imagine someone being able to concoct a story this outrageous.


Come on. You expect us to believe that an athlete quit school early to go pro!?!? :eek:

But I guess when you're the best second basemen of your era, people will make up anything about you.

[RuthMayBond]

Not as bad as this guy:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/44948.php
I actually think there must be some truth to this story. I can't imagine someone being able to concoct a story this outrageous.Sorry your ISP had the sense to remove your libelous website, Mr. Bogenschutz ;-)

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Look let me say this:

In the world of sports nowadays, the fans the media etc. want to see more and more recordbreaking things. But the human being is still the same.

The money that is being thrown around, GM's are expecting faboulous performances of his players every day. And players are more and more under pression.

In England they play football or soccer every second or third day. Thats totally unhuman. You can expect, that every team has his own "doctor" or performance-pusher.

Ronaldinho, Etoo, Drogba etc they all take some performance enhancer.

Expect the same from A-Rod, Ortiz, Dye, Wright, Beltran etc.

Thats the world of today. But there is still the show and the talent they must have to hit the ball....

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Look let me say this:

In the world of sports nowadays, the fans the media etc. want to see more and more recordbreaking things. But the human being is still the same.

The money that is being thrown around, GM's are expecting faboulous performances of his players every day. And players are more and more under pression. In England they play football or soccer every second or third day. Thats totally unhuman. You can expect, that every team has his own "doctor" or performance-pusher.

Ronaldinho, Etoo, Drogba etc they all take some performance enhancer.

Expect the same from A-Rod, Ortiz, Dye, Wright, Beltran etc.

Thats the world of today. But there is still the show and the talent they must have to hit the ball....

Please, your breaking my heart. So we should cut these guys some slack because they are under so much pressure to perform. So it's not the players who choose to take that road. It's really we the fans who demand high performance, the owners, the media, we are the guilty ones.

Sounds like the old "ghetto defense", don't put all the blame on me, look at the neighborhood, the environment I reside in, cut me some slack, go easy on me.

That MLB sould have addressed the issue earlier, no debate there but in the end the bottom line the blame should be placed on the user.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Please, your breaking my heart. So we should cut these guys some slack because they are under so much pressure to perform. So it's not the players who choose to take that road. It's really we the fans who demand high performance, the owners, the media, we are the guilty ones.

Sounds like the old "ghetto defense", don't put all the blame on me, look at the neighborhood, the environment I reside in, cut me some slack, go easy on me.

That MLB sould have addressed the issue earlier, no debate there but in the end the bottom line the blame should be placed on the user.

No. I do blame the players, and I do blame the push and endless hunger for new stupid records. All I want to say is, we should get used to it. Steroids, hormons, speed, nandrolon or whatever. Every power hitter and power pitcher at least, has taken some drugs in his career. I do not like Bonds, but he is just the peak of the iceberg.

I just say don't be blind the players who are now the best in the game are not better than Bonds. They also take things, but it's always extremely difficult to prove. Just don't be surprised if Jermaine Dye says 10 years after his career. "I took steroids, just like everyone."

[SHOELESSJOE3]

No. I do blame the players, and I do blame the push and endless hunger for new stupid records. All I want to say is, we should get used to it. Steroids, hormons, speed, nandrolon or whatever. Every power hitter and power pitcher at least, has taken some drugs in his career. I do not like Bonds, but he is just the peak of the iceberg.

I just say don't be blind the players who are now the best in the game are not better than Bonds. They also take things, but it's always extremely difficult to prove. Just don't be surprised if Jermaine Dye says 10 years after his career. "I took steroids, just like everyone."

Ok lets now place some blame on the endless hunger for new "stupid records."

Ok the fans, the media, the owners and now the quest for record breaking performance. Blaming all those leaves little blame left for the actual user, the one , the only one who made the choice of his or her own free will. That makes those who chose not to use chemicals saints, that they could resist going down that road under all that pressure and knowing they just might get away with that use.


They, who are they, so we should just assume that any of the better players have to be using chemicals, they just have to be. Any proof, for that matter even Bonds who appears to be closer to the fire than some others has to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

You opened the door like some others have, lets put some of the blame on others who some believe created an atmosphere that caused some to make a choice.

Bottom line is now, always will be, the user is to blame, the whole blame.

[FatAngel]

No. I do blame the players, and I do blame the push and endless hunger for new stupid records. All I want to say is, we should get used to it. Steroids, hormons, speed, nandrolon or whatever. Every power hitter and power pitcher at least, has taken some drugs in his career. I do not like Bonds, but he is just the peak of the iceberg.

I just say don't be blind the players who are now the best in the game are not better than Bonds. They also take things, but it's always extremely difficult to prove. Just don't be surprised if Jermaine Dye says 10 years after his career. "I took steroids, just like everyone."

A true European´s opinion.
Nice to read that here. I am with you all along.