Jim Edmonds

[tonjes]

i'm sure many of you saw jim edmonds' catch friday against the reds. that catch was arguably the best of his career (yes, better than the diving over the shoulder catch he made with anaheim several years ago). that ball was around four feet beyond the wall when he snagged it. judging by the smile on his face, i think he even surprised himself after he came down with that ball.

simply put, the guy is amazing. he reads the ball off the bat better than anyone is baseball, plus he has a cannon for an arm. in my opinion he is one of the top 5 defensive cf's ever.

the guy isn't a slouch with the bat either. he's a career .293 hitter, and has been an important fixture in the middle of the cards lineup since arriving before the 2000 season.

considering his defensive credentials (6 gold gloves and counting) and offensive credentials, is it conceivable that he'll end up in cooperstown someday? if not, what will it take for him to be inducted?

[ElHalo]

He's not a top 5 all time defensive CF'er. Max Carey / Tris Speaker / Richie Ashburn / Willie Mays / Paul Blair / and we're done, and there's more that are better than Jim besides those. He's probably not even the best of his own time; a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. beats him out defensively.

His rate numbers are pretty good, but his ink totals are lousy. He's pretty good with the bat, but he's never been among the league's best at any particular time.

I don't know if it would be a travesty if he got in the Hall... but he'd certainly be one of the worst players there. I can't imagine him getting in.

[tonjes]

ok. those guys are all incredible outfielders, but things aren't as clear as you make them out to be. i've seen jim play in person countless times. he has a certain instinct about playing outfield that i've never seen before. sometimes he's a little dramatic, but that's how he plays the game. a lot of times guys with flash, get careless, and make foolish mistakes. this is not the case with him. i think you should give him a little more consideration.

btw...

here are the career fielding percentages of edmonds along with the gentlemen you named earlier:

edmonds .989
ashburn .983
carey .966
blair .987
mays .981
speaker .971
griffey, jr .985

[ElHalo]

Ok, but FP is essentially a useless stat, especially for outfielders. I'll give you the RF+ for all of those guys... or their range factor, i.e., the total number of balls that they get to, indexed for league average to cancel era effects.

Ashburn: 144
Mays: 135
Speaker: 129
Carey: 128
Paul Blair: 122
Griffey: 105
Edmonds: 104

So in other words... Ashburn got to 44% more balls than the average guy, Mays got to 35% more than the average guy, and so on. These numbers aren't an entirely accurate representation of fielding skills; common consensus is that Speaker is the best CF of all time. But it's a lot closer representation than FP.

Edmonds is good, sure. Great player, and probably the best all around CF'er in the game right now. But not really Hall of Fame calibre.

And he's also got one of the most annoying baseballreference.com sponsors I've seen... the guy says that Edmonds is the "greatest OF'er in Cardinals history," then proceeds to call himself a Cardinals memorabilia dealer. Sorry, but if you think Edmonds is better than Stan the Man, you're not a baseball fan.

I don't mean to demean your guy; trust me, I love Jim Edmonds, and I was sad to see him leave the American League a few years back. But he's really just not a Hall calibre player. His defense is great, but it's not all time great (we have very few all time great defenders playing the game right now... Pudge Rodriguez, Greg Maddux, Omar Vizquel, Andruw Jones... maybe Scott Rolen. That's about it). And Edmonds' career offensive value doesn't crack the top 25 players active right now. That's just not a HoF career to me. Unless he somehow turns into Barry Bonds, he doesn't make it.

I'll put it this way: Among CF'ers, Edmonds' rough contemporary, Bernie Williams, who has a better Hall case than Edmonds (only 2 fewer GG's, significantly better ink totals, better AS and MVP voting showings, a batting title, and a key role on a 4 time WS champ)... is a solid NO on the HoF. If somebody with a better case than Edmonds ain't making it, Edmonds ain't making it.

[leecemark]

--I'm inclined to agree that Edmonds has an extremely marginal Halll of Fame case. He would have to remain at his current level of play for much longer than seems likely to pile up career numbers good enough to offset the fact that he was never truely on of the best players in teh game at any given time.
--Defensively I don't know that he is one of the best 5 CF of his own generation, much less all time. He is good and makes alot of highlight plays. However, many of his webgems would be routine plays for players with better range such as Andrew Jones, Mike Cameron or Tori Hunter.

[tonjes]

FP is essentially a useless stat

first, i wouldn't say it is useless, but i agree with you in that it cannot be solely relied upon. i was just using it for a quick comparison. anyways, how do they calculate rf+?

And he's also got one of the most annoying baseballreference.com sponsors I've seen... the guy says that Edmonds is the "greatest OF'er in Cardinals history...

second, that's funny.

we have very few all time great defenders playing the game right now... maybe Scott Rolen

third, no maybe here. he is a hell of a ballplayer. mike schmidt says rolen is the best 3B he's ever seen.

i guess i feel that guys on the cards are overlooked because they play in st. louis, and not new york, chicago, boston, etc.

personally, i think edmonds is a long shot to get into the hall of fame. he probably needs 4 more gold gloves, reach 2000+ hits, 400 home runs, and maintain a batting average close to .300. he just turned 34, so he's got his work cut out for him. even if he accomplishes these feats, it will still be tough for him to get in.

[ElHalo]

first, i wouldn't say it is useless, but i agree with you in that it cannot be solely relied upon. i was just using it for a quick comparison. anyways, how do they calculate rf+?


Well, first you calculate Range Factor... which is (assists + putouts)/games played.

Then you calculate the league RF for that position.

Third, you divide the player's RF by the league RF and multpily by 100... that gives you RF+, an index for how good the player's RF is compared to league average.

If they've got an RF+ of 98, say, that means that they get to 2 percent fewer balls than the average player at that position. If it's 100, that means that they're exactly at the average point.

As you can imagine, Ashburn's RF+ is pretty incredible... he got to almost half again as many balls as the average guy. Pretty ridiculous.

[tonjes]

thanks. very interesting.

well i stand corrected on this. i still think his positioning is close to flawless, but i guess it has to be to make up for his lack of speed.

...and i'd still take him over griffey, andruw jones, torii hunter, or mike cameron.

[PumpsieGreen]

Jim Edmonds has been one of baseball's best centerfielders for awhile now, but that doesn't make him a hall of famer. Actually, there are only two centerfielders who I believe can become hall of famers down the road, Ken Griffey, Jr.(of course), and Andruw Jones, so while that statement is credible, it's not going to put him in hall contention. Edmonds has been a very good offensive player, but he's not one of the best. His defense is awesome, as it has been for his career, but this is a time of great defensive centerfielders. he doesn't have enough credibility, in my mind, to enter the hall, and, at 34, his age is against him.

Pumpsie

[cardinals03]

His defense puts him on the edge of the HOF, but his offensive output will not. He doesn't have a batting title to his credit, no MVP, did not lead the league in HR's during any of his playing years and he is a sub .300 hitter lifetime. Without getting some better credentials offensively, I think he is a big long shot at making it.

The only way he gets in is what I call the Ozzie Smith rule, which Edmonds is on the border of in my opinion. Ozzie was the best of his era and some say the best at the position all time (defensively that is). Edmonds ranks up there with the best of his era, but I believe it would be hard to sell that he was the best ever (which is how Ozzie ultimately got in).

[DoubleX]

I've made an argument for Bernie Williams before that he at least deserves some hall consideration because as a CF, he and his stats should be considered differently than a corner OF...

For the sake of perspective, I was about to ask who is a more viable CF hall candidate, Bernie or Edmonds? But then I looked at Edmonds career totals, and while his homeruns are slightly higher than Bernie, most of his other stats are miles behind Williams. Edmonds is not getting younger, so I think if Bernie is at best a questionable case, Edmonds, albeit amazing defensively, does not have much of a case at all unless he surges into his late 30's. Who knows, maybe he'll be able to be productive offensively until 40, like Steve Finley. If that ends up the case, I'd have to consider Edmonds a possible hall candidate as a CF.

[leecemark]

--Throwing Finley into the mix, who has the better case between Finely, Williams and Edmonds? I'm not sold on any of them, but if you had to vote for one who would it be?

[ElHalo]

I wouldn't put any of the three in, but if I absolutely had to chose, I'd go Bernie, then Edmonds, then Finley.

[DoubleX]

I didn't actually mean to throw Finley in as a viable candidate because if I had to rank the players, I'd have the same list as El Halo - Finley an obvious third. I just meant that if Edmonds can have the kind of production into his late 30's that Finley has had, I think Edmonds numbers combined with he highlight-roll defense, may make him a decent candidate. Finley has had a very admirable career as a CF, but he didn't really get going until his early/mid 30's. I think if you combine the career of Edmonds with Finley, you get at least a decent case. If Edmonds can play his last 4-6 years like Finley, I think if you combine those seasons with Edmonds' good early career (which Finley didn't have), Edmonds might just might have a case.

Though since we're throwing new players into the mix, where does Lofton stack up amidst the CF's of the last 10-12 years? I think it's pretty obvious that Griffey's first, but can the case be made that Lofton has been better than any combination of Williams, Edmonds and Finley?

[tonjes]

...interesting.

i think kenny lofton at his best was more important to his team, than the three other guys mentioned in the previous post. mostly because having a leadoff hitter as complete as he was is incredibly rare. i think he would be a sure fire hall of famer if he were able to stretch is performances from 1993-1996 over a decade or so. but he didn't, so there is no argument for him eventually getting in.

[Brad Harris]

Joe Sheehan had a nice article on Jim Edmonds' Hall of Fame credentials here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4999).

I happen to agree with him. Edmonds is - intrinsically - a Hall-of-Fame caliber player. He just doesn't look like one to the BGC (Bubble Gum Card) stat crowd.

[538280]

Joe Sheehan had a nice article on Jim Edmonds' Hall of Fame credentials here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4999).

I happen to agree with him. Edmonds is - intrinsically - a Hall-of-Fame caliber player. He just doesn't look like one to the BGC (Bubble Gum Card) stat crowd.

I would agree, but I do think Edmonds needs about three more solid years. As of right now, his WS numbers aren't really HOF caliber, but with three more years and about 60 more career WS he probably will be up there.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I would agree, but I do think Edmonds needs about three more solid years. As of right now, his WS numbers aren't really HOF caliber, but with three more years and about 60 more career WS he probably will be up there.
He's at the Averill, Berger, Wilson, Klein level right now. Whether he has three more good years left is anybody's guess.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

double post

[538280]

He's at the Averill, Berger, Wilson, Klein level right now. Whether he has three more good years left is anybody's guess.

I would agree, but I don't think the Averill/Wilson/Klein level is HOF level. None of those players really deserved the HOF. Wally Berger is a different case, I could see him as a HOF deserving player.

If Edmonds has a few more years I see him lifting into the Wynn/Doby/Puckett level, which is HOF level IMO.

[Sockeye]

He's 35 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.

I think he could very well end up with

Games 2197
At-Bats 7694
Runs 1471
Hits 2241
Doubles 501
Triples 29
Home Runs 458
RBI's 1381
Stolen Bases 81
Walks 1142
AVG .288
OBP .380
SLG .540

[538280]

I think Edmonds will be deserving of the HOF at the end of his career as long as he has about two or three more good years. He is a perfect example of how stats on a baseball card don't even come close to telling you how valuable a player is.

[Sockeye]

I think Edmonds needs about 3 more good seasons and then he'll be a lock for the HOF. That being said he looks like he still has a lot of good baseball left in him and should be able to achieve that.

[STLCards2]

He's 35 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.

I think he could very well end up with

Games 2197
At-Bats 7694
Runs 1471
Hits 2241
Doubles 501
Triples 29
Home Runs 458
RBI's 1381
Stolen Bases 81
Walks 1142
AVG .288
OBP .380
SLG .540

If you had seen Edmonds everyday the past 2 seasons, you would realize that he will not end up with numbers that good. His offense and defense have already deteriated, and he is on record saying he doesn't want to play more than a year or two more.

[rockin500]

edmonds is deteriating pretty quickly it seems like. I just dont see the numbers adding up for him to be considered. This is just based on the way his career is arcing.

[jalbright]

Jim Edmonds is a tough case. He's 35, so most of his career is obviously already done. He's only been an all-star four times, which is low for a HOFer, he's not done well in MVP voting in HOF terms, and no black ink and only 60 points of gray ink is quite poor for a HOF caliber outfielder. His ten most similar at this age isn't encouraging, either. His peak performances are right around the borderline of HOF caliber for a CF, 18th in top 3 in win shares and 16th in best five consecutive. He's only about 30 win shares from the top 20 in career win shares, so that's not bad. He's certainly got to get over 2000 hits to have a chance, and that's 381 from where he started this year. To me, he's got to have longevity to amass some significantly better career numbers, or the weaknesses would doom his candidacy.

Jim Albright

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds has 335 HRs and a .290 BA at this writing. He'll probably bring his BA up, so I expect him to be at .289 or so at the end of this year. Edmonds should have over 350 HRs barring injury. He's got a .383 OBP and a .541 slugging pct. That's pretty impressive.

In addition, Edmonds is a CENTER fielder, still playing CF (not moving to the corner in mid-career) and maintaining an image as an exciting CF. He's won eight (8) Gold Gloves; that's a LOT of Gold Gloves.

Edmonds is a total package kind of guy. He's not going to have any one counting stat that will jump out at you. His best chance to hit a major milestone is to finish his career with 400 HRs, which he is about 50-50 on.

If he keeps it at the level of, say, last season, maybe a little more, until age 39 or so, he's got a good shot. I think he will; I think he's just had a slow start this year; he's always been a bit streaky.

I consider Edmonds a better candidate than Jim Rice or Dwight Evans, mainly because of his defense. I think he will get in, although I'm banking on him getting 400 HRs and finishing strong. If he completely falls apart this year, it's a different story; he probably WON'T get in. I do think that his being a career center fielder will count for a lot, however. Edmonds has a LOT of defensive brownie points to present to HOF voters, and his offense is nothing to scoff at, even for a corner outfielder, let alone a center fielder.

[digglahhh]

Edmonds is hard for me too. I want to say no to him. I don't think his offense, given the era, is all that impressive. He strikes out a ton, and figures to pass a bunch of guys this year on his way up the all-time K list. He does provide a nice combination of offense and defense though. If pressed, I anticipate I would come down on the "no" side.

To those of you who give him the nod, how do you think his candidacy compares to Bernie Williams and Larry Walker?

It seems to me that both Bernie and Larry have better cases, but some may see it differently.

[baseballPAP]

I gave him a yes, but I personally wouldn't vote for him. He is having the type of career that looks good to HOF voters however....flashy D, solid O with some pop. Once some of the current writers start to retire and the new breed of saber-skilled writers start to get a say, he may not make it.

[baseballPAP]

Edmonds is hard for me too. I want to say no to him. I don't think his offense, given the era, is all that impressive. He strikes out a ton, and figures to pass a bunch of guys this year on his way up the all-time K list. He does provide a nice combination of offense and defense though. If pressed, I anticipate I would come down on the "no" side.

To those of you who give him the nod, how do you think his candidacy compares to Bernie Williams and Larry Walker?

It seems to me that both Bernie and Larry have better cases, but some may see it differently.
I'd place both Williams and Walker one notch ahead of Edmonds.

[west coast orange and black]

would edmonds get the votes:
as willie mays said, "that guy has trouble staying on his feet out there. what kind of fielder do you you think i think he is?"

[Fuzzy Bear]

I rate Edmonds ahead of Walker and Williams.

Edmonds has been able to STAY in center field as a regular longer than Williams. He's a better CF, and a better hitter, all around, with much more power. Edmonds has been healthier than Walker, and is a CENTER fielder, which, IMO, is a HUGE defensive plus for Edmonds. Additionally, Walker's numbers have been padded by Coors Field.

Edmonds' numbers are impressive, even in this day and age, for a top defensive center fielder.

A lot of people don't like Edmonds; he's something of a hot dog at times, and he MAY be a tad overrated, but if he keeps up where he is now (let alone where he was just 1-2 years ago), he'll be a viable candidate, especially if he stays in CF all the way.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He's 35 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.

I think he could very well end up with

Games 2197
At-Bats 7694
Runs 1471
Hits 2241
Doubles 501
Triples 29
Home Runs 458
RBI's 1381
Stolen Bases 81
Walks 1142
AVG .288
OBP .380
SLG .540

I would also say that if Edmonds actually ended up with these stats here, it would be an injustice NOT to elect him to the HOF.

[Sockeye]

I actually think my projections in the case of Edmonds may be a bit on the high side. It would require another 4 good years which may be asking a lot considering he'll be 36 in june. To make the hall I see him as needing 2000 hits and 400 home runs. If he can do that with his great defense in centerfield then he should be a lock for the hall. He could reach those numbers with two "great" seasons but much more likely it will take three "decent" seasons.

[KCGHOST]

I think he will do well in HoF voting, but not well enough.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds is having a below average year. His concussion problems also seem to be the kind of thing that can rapidly unravel his career. Edmonds will NOT go into the HOF based on what he's done to date. He's one of the top 10 examples of guys who have HURT their HOF chances this year.

[hubkittel]

He's one of the top 10 examples of guys who have HURT their HOF chances this year.
even going into this year, i never considered the idea that hollywood jimmy would get into the HoF. a very good player, a valuable core member of the cards, but not a hall of fame worthy player. i can see how an arguement can be made for him but i'm not the guy to make it. i've always liked the Keltner List when it comes to judging things like this and off the top of my head i don't think edmonds scores very well. never the best player in baseball, never the best player at his position, never the best player on his team, only played on one pennant winner, only four all star games. he has the gold gloves but he's never even been considered the best defensive OF in his own league. what does that leave you with? a damn fine ballplayer-but not a hall of famer.

[antihipster]

While I am a Cardinals fan, I do not see Edmonds making the Hall of Fame.

He needs a couple of good years in order to achieve hof statuts. The problem is that his numbers are starting to slip. He is currently sitting out for post-concussion syndrome. Hopefully, he will not end up being the Eric Lindros of baseball [lots of concusions and post concusion issues].

He has had some great numbers, but I do not see him making the hof unless his numbers go up dramatically way above average.

[Brad Harris]

Edmonds doesn't have enough left in the tank to push him above the "gray area" - though he's easily as good or better than quite a few outfielders already enshrined - and the voters, as a group, don't have the brains to see past the superficiality of his bubble gum card stats.

I have watched Edmonds play a lot of games over the past several years and his defense, while still good, is no longer the best in the game; any future gold gloves will be won off reputation only (because the voters are lazy) and his bat has declined significantly in the past two years.

None of this is to say he shouldn't be elected someday, but it's a close call and the voters haven't inspired a lot of confidence that they can make those kinds of decisions with any reasonable level of consistency.

[64Cards]

I'd go along with the consenus that Edmonds is running out of gas, rather quickly, in the twilight of his career. At age 35, if he had been able to put together 5 reasonably productive seasons, he would have had the career numbers to merit some serious consideration, combined with his excellent defensive work in CF. On the Bill James system, I'd say he's a solid C caliber HOFer.

One thing for sure...if Edmonds does want to continue playing a few more seasons, he'd better be prepared to accept a rather drastic salary cut. Or maybe learn how to pitch, cripes a decent lefty pitcher can seemingly last forever.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds has been a legitimately great player. He still needs to get to 400 HRs.

I would not be surprised if Edmonds had to retire soon for medical reasons. I would not give him a break for that; the concussion problems are a result of his play, and not a fluke, Kirby Puckett-type occurance. The way he played led to a condition that diminished his career.

[538280]

Once some of the current writers start to retire and the new breed of saber-skilled writers start to get a say, he may not make it.

How exactly is this? I would think the opposite-once the saber-skilled writers start to get a say (if that ever happens) he should get MORE of a shot.

Longevity will not really be on his side, but I would call Edmonds a guy who I'd definitely vote for. Even if he is running out of gas, the guy has an awesome 138 OPS+, especially for a CFer, was an awesome fielder too, and had just one hell of a hitting peak 2000-2004. I quesiton how he could NOT be a HOFer, unless you're really caught up in counting stats.

[JimAbbott]

Nope, Edmonds winding down, no way he makes it

[STLCards2]

How exactly is this? I would think the opposite-once the saber-skilled writers start to get a say (if that ever happens) he should get MORE of a shot.

Longevity will not really be on his side, but I would call Edmonds a guy who I'd definitely vote for. Even if he is running out of gas, the guy has an awesome 138 OPS+, especially for a CFer, was an awesome fielder too, and had just one hell of a hitting peak 2000-2004. I quesiton how he could NOT be a HOFer, unless you're really caught up in counting stats.

This is true. I don't believe Edmonds will make it, or even should necessarily, but his saber numbers are better than his traditional numbers.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1993 23 CAL AL 18 61 5 15 4 1 0 4 0 2 2 16 .246 .270 .344 21 0 0 1 0 1
1994 24 CAL AL 94 289 35 79 13 1 5 37 4 2 30 72 .273 .343 .377 109 1 1 3 1 3 RoY-8
1995 25 CAL AL 141 558 120 162 30 4 33 107 1 4 51 130 .290 .352 .536 299 1 5 4 5 10 MVP-14,AS
1996 26 CAL AL 114 431 73 131 28 3 27 66 4 0 46 101 .304 .375 .571 246 0 2 2 4 8
1997 27 ANA AL 133 502 82 146 27 0 26 80 5 7 60 80 .291 .368 .500 251 0 5 5 4 8
1998 28 ANA AL 154 599 115 184 42 1 25 91 7 5 57 114 .307 .368 .506 303 1 1 7 1 16
1999 29 ANA AL 55 204 34 51 17 2 5 23 5 4 28 45 .250 .339 .426 87 0 1 0 0 3
2000 30 STL NL 152 525 129 155 25 0 42 108 10 3 103 167 .295 .411 .583 306 1 8 3 6 5 MVP-4,AS
2001 31 STL NL 150 500 95 152 38 1 30 110 5 5 93 136 .304 .410 .564 282 1 10 12 4 8
2002 32 STL NL 144 476 96 148 31 2 28 83 4 3 86 134 .311 .420 .561 267 0 6 14 8 9 MVP-17
2003 33 STL NL 137 447 89 123 32 2 39 89 1 3 77 127 .275 .385 .617 276 1 2 6 4 11 MVP-27,AS
2004 34 STL NL 153 498 102 150 38 3 42 111 8 3 101 150 .301 .418 .643 320 0 8 12 5 4 SS,MVP-5
2005 35 STL NL 142 467 88 123 37 1 29 89 5 5 91 139 .263 .385 .533 249 1 4 10 4 6 MVP-26,AS
2006 36 STL NL 110 350 52 90 18 0 19 70 4 0 53 101 .257 .350 .471 165 0 5 7 0 11
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
14 Seasons 5907 1709 21 1068 46 1512 .289 .382 .539 7 58 86 46 103
1697 1115 380 350 63 878 3181
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 564 106 163 36 2 33 102 6 4 84 144 .289 .382 .539 304 1 6 8 4 10
Career High 154 599 129 184 42 4 42 111 10 7 103 167 .311 .420 .643 320 1 10 14 8 16

Special Batting Glossary
Year Ag Tm Lg PA Outs RC RC/27 OWP BA *lgBA OBP *lgOBP SLG *lgSLG OPS *lgOPS*OPS+ psOPS SB%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
1993 23 CAL AL 63 49 6 3.31 | .246 .271| .270 .343| .344 .415| .614 .757| 62 0%
1994 24 CAL AL 322 217 37 4.60 | .273 .274| .343 .346| .377 .436| .720 .782| 85 66%
1995 25 CAL AL 620 416 105 6.81 | .290 .270| .352 .344| .536 .427| .888 .771| 128 20%
1996 26 CAL AL 483 310 91 7.93 | .304 .275| .375 .348| .571 .441| .946 .789| 137 100%
1997 27 ANA AL 571 376 92 6.61 | .291 .271| .368 .341| .500 .429| .868 .770| 124 41%
1998 28 ANA AL 659 438 111 6.84 | .307 .273| .368 .342| .506 .434| .874 .776| 124 58%
1999 29 ANA AL 233 161 30 5.03 | .250 .275| .339 .348| .426 .440| .765 .788| 94 55%
2000 30 STL NL 643 387 126 8.79 | .295 .273| .411 .351| .583 .446| .994 .797| 148 76%
2001 31 STL NL 608 372 117 8.49 | .304 .267| .410 .338| .564 .438| .974 .776| 150 50%
2002 32 STL NL 576 346 111 8.66 | .311 .259| .420 .332| .561 .412| .981 .743| 163 57%
2003 33 STL NL 531 341 105 8.31 | .275 .264| .385 .335| .617 .423|1.002 .758| 161 25%
2004 34 STL NL 612 363 134 9.97 | .301 .266| .418 .337| .643 .431|1.061 .768| 173 72%
2005 35 STL NL 567 360 95 7.12 | .263 .271| .385 .342| .533 .431| .918 .773| 136 50%
2006 36 STL NL 408 276 59 5.77 | .257 .270| .350 .340| .471 .438| .821 .778| 111 100%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
14 Seasons 6896 4412 1219 7.46 | .289 .270| .382 .341| .539 .432| .921 .774| 137 57%

* indicates the value is park adjusted
Fielding Glossary / Sort by Position, then Year
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP lgFP RFg lgRFg RF9 lgRF9 GS Inn LF CF RF
+--------------+---+----+------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+------+----+----+----+
+---- Fielding Sorted by Year ------+
1993 23 CAL AL OF 17 47 4 1 2 .981 .983 3.00 2.09 1 1 15
1994 24 CAL AL OF 77 145 9 3 0 .981 .982 2.00 2.09 59 5 19
1B 22 156 11 0 10 1.000 .992 7.59 8.49
1995 25 CAL AL OF 139 401 8 1 2 .998 .983 2.94 1.99 0 139 0 AS
1996 26 CAL AL CF 111 280 6 1 2 .997 .990 2.58 2.35
DH 1
1997 27 ANA AL CF 115 313 9 5 3 .985 .988 2.80 2.31 GG
1B 11 84 7 0 5 1.000 .992 8.27 8.04
DH 8
1998 28 ANA AL CF 153 389 10 5 1 .988 .987 2.61 2.36 GG
1999 29 ANA AL CF 42 119 4 1 1 .992 .985 2.93 2.36
DH 9
1B 2 19 1 0 2 1.000 .992 10.00 8.35
2000 30 STL NL CF 146 351 9 4 2 .989 .987 2.47 2.24 2.68 2.64 138 1210.7 GG,AS
1B 6 40 4 0 6 1.000 .992 7.33 7.73 9.43 9.26 6 42.0 AS
2001 31 STL NL CF 147 311 12 6 1 .982 .986 2.20 2.18 2.39 2.59 140 1214.7 GG
1B 2 14 2 0 2 1.000 .993 8.00 7.85 10.29 9.26 2 14.0
2002 32 STL NL CF 139 347 11 5 4 .986 .988 2.58 2.13 2.78 2.57 132 1160.0 GG
2003 33 STL NL CF 128 334 12 5 5 .986 .988 2.70 2.14 3.06 2.50 118 1017.3 GG,AS
DH 2 AS
LF 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 .979 1.00 1.50 1.50 1.95 0 6.0 GG,AS
2004 34 STL NL CF 146 314 11 4 2 .988 .987 2.23 2.26 2.36 2.53 141 1241.7 GG
1B 1 9 1 0 0 1.000 .993 10.00 8.20 10.00 9.50 1 9.0
DH 1
2005 35 STL NL CF 139 318 5 2 1 .994 .987 2.32 2.15 2.52 2.51 132 1153.3 GG,AS
2006 36 STL NL CF 99 223 4 3 0 .987 .988 2.29 2.20 2.58 2.58 92 792.3
1B 6 43 2 0 5 1.000 .994 7.50 8.05 9.95 9.42 4 40.7
+---- Fielding Sorted by Position --+
1994 24 CAL AL 1B 22 156 11 0 10 1.000 .992 7.59 8.49
1997 27 ANA AL 1B 11 84 7 0 5 1.000 .992 8.27 8.04
1999 29 ANA AL 1B 2 19 1 0 2 1.000 .992 10.00 8.35
2000 30 STL NL 1B 6 40 4 0 6 1.000 .992 7.33 7.73 9.43 9.26 6 42.0
2001 31 STL NL 1B 2 14 2 0 2 1.000 .993 8.00 7.85 10.29 9.26 2 14.0
2004 34 STL NL 1B 1 9 1 0 0 1.000 .993 10.00 8.20 10.00 9.50 1 9.0
2006 36 STL NL 1B 6 43 2 0 5 1.000 .994 7.50 8.05 9.95 9.42 4 40.7

1996 26 CAL AL CF 111 280 6 1 2 .997 .990 2.58 2.35
1997 27 ANA AL CF 115 313 9 5 3 .985 .988 2.80 2.31
1998 28 ANA AL CF 153 389 10 5 1 .988 .987 2.61 2.36
1999 29 ANA AL CF 42 119 4 1 1 .992 .985 2.93 2.36
2000 30 STL NL CF 146 351 9 4 2 .989 .987 2.47 2.24 2.68 2.64 138 1210.7
2001 31 STL NL CF 147 311 12 6 1 .982 .986 2.20 2.18 2.39 2.59 140 1214.7
2002 32 STL NL CF 139 347 11 5 4 .986 .988 2.58 2.13 2.78 2.57 132 1160.0
2003 33 STL NL CF 128 334 12 5 5 .986 .988 2.70 2.14 3.06 2.50 118 1017.3
2004 34 STL NL CF 146 314 11 4 2 .988 .987 2.23 2.26 2.36 2.53 141 1241.7
2005 35 STL NL CF 139 318 5 2 1 .994 .987 2.32 2.15 2.52 2.51 132 1153.3
2006 36 STL NL CF 99 223 4 3 0 .987 .988 2.29 2.20 2.58 2.58 92 792.3

1996 26 CAL AL DH 1
1997 27 ANA AL DH 8
1999 29 ANA AL DH 9
2003 33 STL NL DH 2
2004 34 STL NL DH 1

2003 33 STL NL LF 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 .979 1.00 1.50 1.50 1.95 0 6.0

1993 23 CAL AL OF 17 47 4 1 2 .981 .983 3.00 2.09 1 1 15
1994 24 CAL AL OF 77 145 9 3 0 .981 .982 2.00 2.09 59 5 19
1995 25 CAL AL OF 139 401 8 1 2 .998 .983 2.94 1.99 0 139 0
+--------------+---+----+------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+------+----+----+----+
Position Total CF*1365 3299 93 41 22 .988 .987 2.48 2.23 893 7790.0
OF 233 593 21 5 4 .992 .983 2.64 2.03 61 1510 34#
1B* 50 365 28 0 30 1.000 .992 7.86 8.21 13 105.7
DH 21 Games not counted in Overall Total below
LF* 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 .979 1.00 1.50 0 6.0
+--------------+---+----+------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+------+----+----+----+
Overall Total 1649 4258 142 46 56 .990 .987 2.67 2.39


# indicates breakdown of outfield by position games played is for entire career.
Postseason Batting

Year Round Tm Opp WLser G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS SH SF HBP
+------------------+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+--+--+--+--+--+
2000 NLDS STL ATL W 3 14 5 8 4 0 2 7 1 2 .571 .600 1.286 1 0 0 0 0
NLCS STL NYM L 5 22 1 5 1 0 1 6 1 9 .227 .261 .409 0 0 0 0 0
2001 NLDS STL ARI L 5 17 3 4 1 0 2 3 3 6 .235 .350 .647 0 0 0 0 0
2002 NLDS STL ARI W 3 11 1 3 0 0 1 2 2 4 .273 .385 .545 0 1 0 0 0
NLCS STL SFG L 5 20 2 8 2 0 1 4 2 5 .400 .455 .650 0 0 0 0 0
2004 NLDS STL LAD W 4 15 1 4 0 0 1 2 1 9 .267 .312 .467 0 1 0 0 0
NLCS STL HOU W 7 24 2 7 2 0 2 7 2 6 .292 .357 .625 0 0 0 1 1
WS STL BOS L 4 15 2 1 0 0 0 0 1 6 .067 .125 .067 0 0 0 0 0
2005 NLDS STL SDP W 3 11 5 4 2 0 1 1 2 2 .364 .462 .818 0 0
NLCS STL HOU L 6 19 2 4 1 0 0 0 5 5 .211 .375 .263 1 0
2006 NLDS STL SDP W 4 13 2 4 0 0 0 2 2 3 .308 .400 .308 0 0
NLCS STL NYM W 7 22 5 5 0 0 2 4 5 5 .227 .370 .500 0 0
WS STL DET W 5 17 1 4 2 0 0 4 3 8 .235 .350 .353 0 0
+------------------+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+--+--+--+--+--+
6 Lg Div Series 5-1 22 81 17 27 7 0 7 17 11 26 .333 .413 .679 1 2 0 0 0
5 Lg Champ Series 2-3 30 107 12 29 6 0 6 21 15 30 .271 .363 .495 1 0 0 1 1
2 World Series 1-1 9 32 3 5 2 0 0 4 4 14 .156 .250 .219 0 0 0 0 0
13 Postseason Ser 8-5 61 220 32 61 15 0 13 42 30 70 .277 .365 .523 2 2 0 1 1
+------------------+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+--+--+--+--+--+



I know alot of people consider him a border-line HoFer, and he is nearing retirement in 2 years or so.

I am going with no because even though he is a great defensive player and definetly has had his years offensively, I think that he strikes out too many times and doesn't rack up enough hits. But maybe that's just my opinion.

[STLCards2]

Edmonds needs to stay healthy and productive the next 2 seasons to have a chance. I would agree that he is definately on the outside looking in as of now. I doubt he makes it.

[Edgartohof]

I say he at LEAST needs a couple more .280/.380/.550 seasons with 30+ HR's to even have a shot.

And he also needs 2,000 hits as well, which might require a 3rd season for him, and even then, his chances are slim. I mean with another couple 30 HR seasons, he would still be shy of 400 HR's, which isn't that great in this day and age.

Maybe if he could post a couple more .400+ OBP seasons, his case would be helped, but I guess we'll have to wait and see, and in the end, a LOT of emphasis will have to be placed on his defense to get him in.

Really, I don't think he'll make it because he just hasn't been able to stay in the lineup everyday. He has only played in 150+ games four times 13 seasons since he became a full time player in 1994.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I say he at LEAST needs a couple more .280/.380/.550 seasons with 30+ HR's to even have a shot.

And he also needs 2,000 hits as well, which might require a 3rd season for him, and even then, his chances are slim. I mean with another couple 30 HR seasons, he would still be shy of 400 HR's, which isn't that great in this day and age.

Maybe if he could post a couple more .400+ OBP seasons, his case would be helped, but I guess we'll have to wait and see, and in the end, a LOT of emphasis will have to be placed on his defense to get him in.

Really, I don't think he'll make it because he just hasn't been able to stay in the lineup everyday. He has only played in 150+ games four times 13 seasons since he became a full time player in 1994.

Well, he is one of the best (if not the best) defensive center fielder in the NL and possibly of the mlb.

If he doesn't make it I think it will be because he is injury prone and might not have it in him to mimic his early 2000 seasons (offensive wise).

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds is borderline. He still needs some work, IMO. I don't think he'd go in if his career ended today.

Edmonds' 1st 10 full seasons were the stuff of a HOFer, but he wasn't a regular until age 25. He HAS missed time to injuries, but he doesn't merit any credit there. His high-risk style of play, which gets him in "Webgems" often also lands him on the DL.

Edmonds is a CENTER fielder, so his batting stats don't disqualify him. The last two years are evidence that Edmonds' talent level has dropped; he's no longer at the level he was at 2004 and beyond. His concussion problems took on an air of chronicity this year, and cast a cloud over how well he'll perform in future years.

If Edmonds can reverse some of the decline, and get it to 400 HRs without losing much more on the BA/OBP side of things, he's in the running. If he can get to 450 HRs, even better. (Edmonds still has a chance for 500 HRs, but that chance went WAY down to the low single digits this year, IMO.) But if this is it; if Edmonds' problems continue his decline to where he still misses games, can't get to 400 HRs, and has a rapid decline, than the HOF is not going to happen for him.

[dl4060]

Edmonds is borderline, but I think he has been a truly outstanding player. I think he is about a mile above Ichiro, though Ichiro probably has a better shot at getting elected. Edmonds seems as if he took a little long to become a great player. He was excellent with the Angels, but not quite the type of player who made one think HOF. Since 2000 he has played at a HOF level, if he had 2-3 more seasons like 2000-04 I think he should be in. Really an underrated star. I woul love to see him get there.

[The Wizard]

His high-risk style of play, which gets him in "Webgems" often also lands him on the DL.


Ain't it great. :D

Seriously he's a great player, exciting to watch, and a great addition to the Cardinals. As it stands now, though, he just couldn't make it in. If he can stay healthy (unlikely as in above-referenced quote) and produce as he has in the past then he would be borderline, but I'm still not sure he'd be HOF-worthy. The Hall is supposed to be for the Best of the best, and as much as I love any man in a Cardinal uniform, I'm just not sure he qualifies. Of course, I'm hoping he really proves me wrong the next few years.

:gt

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds has had a surprisingly high peak, but not as long a peak as one would want in a HOFer. He needs to hang in to near 40, and he needs to recoup some of what he lost, talent-wise, which will NOT be easy to do, nor is it likely that he will do it.

[Colorado Express]

No way..........

[Fuzzy Bear]

No way..........

I would have tended to agree at the time of this post, but Edmonds has mounted a comeback of sorts this year.

While he flopped with the Pads, his OWP with the Cubs is .747 to date. He's going to get over 20 jacks if he keeps it up, and that will get him over 380 HRs.

Edmonds has dramatically increased the possibility that he will make it to 400 HRs. That wouldn't hack it if he were a lumbering LF, but Edmonds has been a Web Gems Center Fielder for much of his career, so his defensive value is real and memorable.

If Edmonds makes it to 400 HRs, he'll stay on the ballot, and, quite possibly, build support over the years. He's a bit short on All-Star appearances, but his eight (8) center field Gold Gloves are a permanent part of his record. I don't know if he'll make it, but I honestly think he's a better player than Richie Ashburn, for whom a bandwagon existed for many years before his election.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds has had a surprisingly high peak, but not as long a peak as one would want in a HOFer. He needs to hang in to near 40, and he needs to recoup some of what he lost, talent-wise, which will NOT be easy to do, nor is it likely that he will do it.

He's doing exactly what he needs to do. At this writing, anyway.

[Freakshow]

According to BB-Ref ,Jim Edmonds and Dick Allen are each other's "most similar" player.:hp

[philkid3]

I had to share that the moment I opened this thread, Jim Edmonds hit a home run off the Cardinals.

[Brad Harris]

According to BB-Ref ,Jim Edmonds and Dick Allen are each other's "most similar" player.:hp

Interesting because I think Allen belongs in the Hall. Throw in a career of gold-glove defense at center field and subtract any intangibles issues you might dock Allen for and you've got a surefire Hall-of-Famer. That's just a notch above where I think Edmonds is at, but it's still an interesting comp.

[Cougar]

Interesting because I think Allen belongs in the Hall. Throw in a career of gold-glove defense at center field and subtract any intangibles issues you might dock Allen for and you've got a surefire Hall-of-Famer. That's just a notch above where I think Edmonds is at, but it's still an interesting comp.

Following this exact same line of thinking...I need to reassess what I think of Edmonds too. My thinking has been that he falls just short, but boy howdy -- steroid era or not, 400 HR out of a GG centerfielder with solid BA/OBP/SLG is pretty darn special.

He still needs one more solid season after this one to compile numbers like 2000 games played, 2000 hits, 1000 BB and 400 HR that will cement his case. Getting to those figures will eliminate excuses for people to not support him. (That's the last season that Dick Allen couldn't quite muster, by the way.)

[jalbright]

Another example of why except in the clearest of cases why I prefer to let the dust settle before making up my mind on these issues.

[philkid3]

The more I look at Edmonds's case, or invest in researching the years in which he played, the more I lean towards a very firm yes. In other words, I'm drifting from "arguably a Hall of Famer," to "Hall of Famer."

[highpockets]

Interesting because I think Allen belongs in the Hall. Throw in a career of gold-glove defense at center field and subtract any intangibles issues you might dock Allen for and you've got a surefire Hall-of-Famer. That's just a notch above where I think Edmonds is at, but it's still an interesting comp.
Take Allen's 156 OPS+ and throw in a career of gold glove defense at center field and what you've got is Willie Mays.

It's interesting how close Edmunds's and Allens stats are, in a creepy sort of way, but it's an indication of how much times have changed rather than how similar they are.

Not that Edmunds's numbers are shabby by any means. His counting stats are a little shortish, but what's there is choice.

[dl4060]

Edmonds is very close. His counting stats are close, when you also add in that he was a spectacular CF. His rate stats are also still very good. His OPS+ at 132 is impressive for a CF with gold glove defense and 1900 career games. The perception of him may be that he is very good, but I think he is better than the mainstream media perceives him to be. He had a couple of MVP level seasons with the Cardinals.

Edmonds is one of those guys who really was hurt by Bonds presence in from 2000-2005. I would have given him(or possibly Pujols) the MVP in 2004. They produced at almost the same level, with Albert being slightly better. Pujols also had 70 more plate appearances, which combined with his tiny advantage in production gives him a very small advantage offensively. Edmonds being a CF, however, probably puts him on top for that season. Had he won the MVP in 2004 the resulting press would have really shown the world how great he has been for quite a while now. It could be the difference between making Cooperstown and ending up on the outside.

[John Shoemaker]

If he gets to 400 homeruns I believe he will get into the HOF. I hope he gets there. In any case the Cubs made a heck of a move in getting him.

[JDD]

Here is my take on Edmonds... He has a very nice shot at the HOF if the voters give him credit for being a Centerfielder, and not just an "outfielder". What's the difference you ask? Let's look at runs created vs the league average (min 6000 PA) for all non-pitchers, since 1975 when Fred Lynn re-invented the position....

RUNS CREATED/GAME RATE PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Barry Bonds 215 10.63 4.94
2 Manny Ramirez 172 8.87 5.17
3 Larry Walker 171 8.59 5.01
4 Vladimir Guerrero 154 8.02 5.20
5 Gary Sheffield 154 7.69 5.00
6 Bobby Abreu 151 7.90 5.23
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 149 7.52 5.03
8 Brian Giles 149 7.84 5.27
9 Rickey Henderson 146 6.93 4.75
10 Albert Belle 143 7.27 5.07
11 Tim Raines 143 6.66 4.65
12 Dwight Evans 142 6.30 4.45
13 Jack Clark 141 6.36 4.50
14 Darryl Strawberry 141 6.45 4.59
15 Tony Gwynn 140 6.63 4.72
16 Jim Edmonds 140 7.36 5.25
17 Ken Singleton 140 6.17 4.40
18 Fred Lynn 139 6.19 4.46
19 David Justice 139 6.89 4.97
20 Tim Salmon 138 7.14 5.17
21 Ellis Burks 135 6.60 4.87
22 Eric Davis 135 6.41 4.76
23 Moises Alou 134 6.85 5.12
24 Jim Rice 134 5.95 4.45
25 Reggie Jackson 132 5.90 4.46
26 Juan Gonzalez 132 6.65 5.04
27 George Foster 132 5.90 4.47
28 Kirby Puckett 132 6.09 4.62
29 Kirk Gibson 132 6.03 4.59
30 Dave Winfield 128 5.84 4.55
31 Ryan Klesko 128 6.67 5.21
32 Bernie Williams 128 6.54 5.11
33 Ken Griffey Sr. 128 5.77 4.52
34 Gary Matthews 126 5.68 4.49
35 Dale Murphy 126 5.63 4.47
36 Sammy Sosa 126 6.36 5.05
37 Andy Van Slyke 126 5.72 4.55
38 Ray Lankford 125 6.28 5.00
39 Jose Cruz 125 5.63 4.51
40 Luis Gonzalez 124 6.35 5.13

Now let's ask Lee's Database to filter out everyone it does not consider to be a centerfielder...


RUNS CREATED/GAME RATE PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Ken Griffey Jr. 149 7.52 5.03
2 Jim Edmonds 140 7.36 5.25
3 Fred Lynn 139 6.19 4.46
4 Ellis Burks 135 6.60 4.87
5 Eric Davis 135 6.41 4.76
6 Kirby Puckett 132 6.09 4.62
7 Bernie Williams 128 6.54 5.11
8 Dale Murphy 126 5.63 4.47
9 Andy Van Slyke 126 5.72 4.55
10 Ray Lankford 125 6.28 5.00
11 Al Oliver 124 5.52 4.47
12 Kenny Lofton 120 6.16 5.12
13 Chet Lemon 120 5.37 4.47
14 Brett Butler 118 5.45 4.61
15 Brady Anderson 117 5.84 5.00
16 Johnny Damon 114 5.88 5.17
17 Andruw Jones 111 5.81 5.26
18 Lloyd Moseby 108 4.87 4.50
19 Willie Wilson 106 4.77 4.52
20 Steve Finley 104 5.22 5.01
21 Mike Cameron 104 5.43 5.22
22 Willie McGee 102 4.72 4.64

Jim Edmonds looks REAL good if you compare him to fellow centerfielders, as opposed to all outfielders including corner outfielders and all time greats like Bonds, Vlad, and Manny. Will the HOF voters do the same?

[Paul Wendt]

And if they look at this data, will they equate Edmonds with
Ellis Burks ("I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer") and
Eric Davis ("he couldn't stay in the lineup")?

P.S.
How many people invented the position before Fred Lynn?

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

HTF is Jack Clark rated above Jim Edmonds in runs created amongst outfielders? :shrug:

OT but your list is pretty kind to Bobby Abreu at #6 below Bonds, Ramirez, Walker, Guerrero & Sheffield. I didn't know he was that high :noidea

[JDD]

And if they look at this data, will they equate Edmonds with
Ellis Burks ("I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer") and
Eric Davis ("he couldn't stay in the lineup")?

P.S.
How many people invented the position before Fred Lynn?

The same as the number of teams which were winning World Series Games with centerfielders who were really shortstops (and hit like shortstops) who could run.

[Sockeye]

It has been about 3 years since the last series of potential HOFer polls I ran. Thought I would do another series of polls. Below is a list of the players stats to date. Unlike the last series of polls I'm not going to list any career projections.

Jim Edmonds at age 38

1925 games
6612 at-bats
1207 runs
1881 hits
414 doubles
25 triples
382 home runs
1176 RBI
65 stolen bases
974 BB
.284 AVG
.377 OBP
.528 SLG
132 OPS+
3491 total bases
7708 PA's
1364 runs created
7.3 RC/G
.659 OWP
328.7 batting runs
30.4 batting wins
0 black ink
60 gray ink
40.4 HOF standards
88.5 HOF monitor
.303 EQA
79.6 WARP1
83.0 WARP3
613 BRAR
392 BRAA
382 FRAR
83 FRAA
301 win shares

[Cowtipper]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=55700&highlight=edmonds

[Cougar]

Sabremetrically, he's there, but his counting stats are thin. He's missing the sorts of milestones that voters base their "he doesn't even have..." arguments on.

One more half decent season would get him to 400 HR, 2000 hits, and 1000 walks. That would go a long way for him in terms of being able to get over the hump.

Should it matter? Maybe not, but longevity and durability matter; those milestones are useful for filtering out high peak players whose peaks might not have been quite high enough.

Is anyone going to give Edmonds a job this season?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds had quite a 1/2 season with the Cubs. He recaptured much of his lost ability, and racked up a .672 OWP for his Cubs time.

Edmonds had problems with a series of concussions, so one wonders if he was suddenly able to put that behind him. I did not expect him to perform as well as he did with the Cubs, and the fact that he did indicates that he MIGHT still be able to hold down enough of a CF job to make it to 400 HRs.

Edmonds, IMO, is a better pick for the HOF than Jim Rice or Dwight Evans. He brings much more defense to the table than even Evans did, and he was a better offensive player than both. Edmonds brings more to the table, IMO, than Andre Dawson. Being better than all of these guys, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean that you're a HOFer, but it's better than being behind them in line.

Edmonds is, IMO, in the Duke Snider mold. He's not as good, of course, but he's cut out of the Snider mold. How much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer?

[Ace Venom]

If Andre Dawson can't get in, then neither should Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is good, but he's not a Hall of Famer. Then again, if they let Jim Rice in, they could let Edmonds in. It's not a hard and fast rule, so I look at Jimmy Baseball's numbers and I have to say no. I won't say his career is done, but he needs another season.

[John Shoemaker]

Does anyone know if Edmonds is trying to catch on with a team to play this year? I hope he does - IMO there are a lot of teams he can help.

[KCGHOST]

To me Edmonds is a "Maybe". His Career Win Shares and his WARP3 score would each rank 11th among the 15 CF's already in the HoF.

[Freakshow]

Does anyone know if Edmonds is trying to catch on with a team to play this year? I hope he does - IMO there are a lot of teams he can help.Whereabouts unknown. He's still a free agent as of now: Free Agent Tracker (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?type=avail&season=2008) MLB Trade Rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html)

Players debuting since 1985, 1000+ games in CF, 5500+ PA
Cnt Player OPS+ RC OBP G PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Ken Griffey 138 1934 .373 2521 10742 1989 2008
2 Jim Edmonds 132 1364 .377 1925 7708 1993 2008
3 Ellis Burks 126 1350 .363 2000 8176 1987 2004
4 Bernie Williams 125 1445 .381 2076 9053 1991 2006
5 Ray Lankford 122 1045 .364 1701 6674 1990 2004
6 Carlos Beltran 118 1079 .357 1481 6520 1998 2008
7 Andruw Jones 111 1104 .339 1836 7514 1996 2008
8 Kenny Lofton 107 1386 .372 2103 9234 1991 2007
9 Mike Cameron 106 959 .340 1680 6807 1995 2008
10 Torii Hunter 105 737 .326 1380 5502 1997 2008
11 Steve Finley 104 1416 .332 2583 10460 1989 2007
12 Johnny Damon 103 1296 .354 1988 8807 1995 2008
13 Devon White 98 1022 .319 1941 8080 1985 2001
14 Lance Johnson 95 706 .334 1447 5800 1987 2000
15 Marquis Grissom 92 1101 .318 2165 8959 1989 2005
16 Brian McRae 92 689 .331 1354 5737 1990 1999
17 Juan Pierre 84 697 .346 1288 5639 2000 2008

[Gravy Train]

I voted no. If Dale Murphy isn't in, I don't think Edmonds should be in. Murphy won two MVP awards, and didn't play in the offensive-friendly era Edmonds did. Looking at his numbers, though, Jimmy is definitely at least a borderline canidate (personally, though, if you're borderline, I don't think you should go in the HoF). Amazing that a guy with Edmonds speed only stole 65 bases, though.

[Cougar]

I voted no. If Dale Murphy isn't in, I don't think Edmonds should be in. Murphy won two MVP awards, and didn't play in the offensive-friendly era Edmonds did. Looking at his numbers, though, Jimmy is definitely at least a borderline canidate (personally, though, if you're borderline, I don't think you should go in the HoF). Amazing that a guy with Edmonds speed only stole 65 bases, though.

I'm not objecting to the conclusion -- I think Gravy Train has got it more or less exactly correct; Edmonds is borderline -- but I do object to the reasoning. Simply, two wrongs don't make a right.

Murphy is better than Edmonds, I agree...indeed, I think he's so much better that it's a travesty he's only receiving vote totals from the BBWAA in the teens or whatever they've been on late. Murphy is better than half the center fielders in the Hall of Fame right now.

However, if Edmonds is worthy, regardless of his rank compared to other worthies, his induction ought to be supported. Players ought to be considered on their own merits.

To put it another way, if Ty Cobb for some bizarre reason weren't in the Hall, it wouldn't improve matters to exclude Tris Speaker on the logic that he wasn't as good as Cobb. A HOFer is a HOFer, and aiming for some sort of cosmic justice is foolhardy. The best bet for such justice is to slowly but surely improve matters one step at a time, and hope that someday we'll get to the top of the mountain.

[Brad Harris]

If Andre Dawson can't get in, then neither should Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is good, but he's not a Hall of Famer. Then again, if they let Jim Rice in, they could let Edmonds in. It's not a hard and fast rule, so I look at Jimmy Baseball's numbers and I have to say no. I won't say his career is done, but he needs another season.
Dawson's and Edmonds' cases have nothing to do with each other, never mind the fact Dawson will almost certainly be inducted in the Hall of Fame before Edmonds sees his first ballot. Edmonds deserves to be in because he was great enough for long enough, not because he's better than Rice.

[BigRon]

Edmonds is, IMO, in the Duke Snider mold. He's not as good, of course, but he's cut out of the Snider mold. How much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer?

Well, I don't want to debate Jim Edmonds vs Duke Snider here. But, as to the how much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer, I'd say quite a bit.

Don't have any data in front of me, but there probably are at least 150 position players in the HOF. Quite a few- help, somebody- were elected by the Veterans' Committees. It's true that Duke wasn't elected until his 11th try, but that was due to many circumstances, which I won't go into now. Some were salient, some were not.

Most recent/current polls place Duke Snider somewhere in the top 60 or so position players of all time. Some, like James, place him considerably higher. If these opinions are accepted, it seems that Snider is at least in the middle- probably higher- in the hierarchy of HOF position players.

So, in my opinion, the answer to the question is- LOTS- maybe 100 player's worth- if voting was rational.

Edmonds has been a very good player for quite a few years. His lack of counting stats and his lack of league leaderships will work against him. I don't believe he will be voted into the HOF by the BBWA, but many stranger things have happened.

[Gravy Train]

I'm not objecting to the conclusion -- I think Gravy Train has got it more or less exactly correct; Edmonds is borderline -- but I do object to the reasoning. Simply, two wrongs don't make a right.

Murphy is better than Edmonds, I agree...indeed, I think he's so much better that it's a travesty he's only receiving vote totals from the BBWAA in the teens or whatever they've been on late. Murphy is better than half the center fielders in the Hall of Fame right now.

However, if Edmonds is worthy, regardless of his rank compared to other worthies, his induction ought to be supported. Players ought to be considered on their own merits.

To put it another way, if Ty Cobb for some bizarre reason weren't in the Hall, it wouldn't improve matters to exclude Tris Speaker on the logic that he wasn't as good as Cobb. A HOFer is a HOFer, and aiming for some sort of cosmic justice is foolhardy. The best bet for such justice is to slowly but surely improve matters one step at a time, and hope that someday we'll get to the top of the mountain.

Fair enough. I generally don't go in for the whole "if so-and-so is in the Hall, this guy should be, too," anyhow. How many players compare favorably to Rabbit Marinville or Jim Bunning, for example? A better way to put that would have been: if Dale Murphy, who had similar numbers, but also won two MVPs, hasn't sniffed Cooperstown, why should Edmonds be inducted? In the end, though, you would have to judge each player individually.

[jalbright]

Threads merged, but with the new poll in place instead. The prior poll was 54-20 against Edmonds, or almost precisely 73-27% against.

[Sockeye]

I went with yes for the fact that I believe he deserves to be in the hall. That said I don't think he'll get in via the writers. When you look at his combination of offensive production and great defensive ability at a very important defensive position he's above the HOF line.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I went with yes for the fact that I believe he deserves to be in the hall. That said I don't think he'll get in via the writers. When you look at his combination of offensive production and great defensive ability at a very important defensive position he's above the HOF line.

It's hard to say. Edmonds was a "Web Gems" player in his best years; he was dramatic and memorable. If Bobby Thomson were a career CF with Edmonds' numbers, he'd already be in the HOF, IMO.

I'll be amazed if no team takes a flyer on Edmonds. He certainly appears to have something left in the tank, and he seems to have recovered from his concussion problems. Edmonds played at All-Star level with the Cubs; he's certainly a stronger bet in CF than some guys who are pencilled in as starters.

[Cougar]

Edmonds would actually make a lot of sense for the Yankees: They need a good glove in CF, and his lefty power will presumably play well in the new Yankee Stadium, given that its dimensions are similar to the old one. They're in "win now" mode, so not giving the time to a younger player isn't a big deal...