Jackie's influence: Curt Flood

[VIBaseball]

I just got through reading the new book on Curt Flood, called A Well-Paid Slave. It's very good on many levels, and one of the extra points of interest is how much influence Jackie Robinson had on the young Curt. Also, I hadn't really been aware that an 18-year-old Flood was called up by Cincinnati late in the 1956 season and made his debut at Ebbets Field. Jackie, playing first, erased him on a force play.

Not only that, Jackie himself (late in life, health failing) makes several other appearances in the story, and there are a couple of photos of him.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Curt Flood may have been a great soul, I have no idea, but he contributed to bringing the great poison of free agency to sports. Baseball especially has never been the same. A slave? What a disgraceful comparison. I would have signed a 20 year contract with the Browns and loved every second of it.

[yanks0714]

Curt Flood may have been a great soul, I have no idea, but he contributed to bringing the great poison of free agency to sports. Baseball especially has never been the same. A slave? What a disgraceful comparison. I would have signed a 20 year contract with the Browns and loved every second of it.

Lets get some facts straight here. Curt Flood had virtually nothing to do with free agency. He lost his case easily. Marvin Miller didn't even want him to try to test the reserve clause because the time wasn't right and he didn't think Flood's case had a chance. Turned out he was right. Very few players, past or present at the time, testified on Flood's behalf. A number of players told Flood not to go through with it.

It wasn't until several years later that Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally tested the reserve clause and won spearheaded by Marvin Miller. Both had played without contracts the year before making it a perfect setting for a test of the reserve clause. In McNally's cas, it was perfect as he was planning to retire anyway and did retire. Messersmith took on the real challenge as his career was still ongoing.

As well, A's owner Charles O. Finley unwittingly contributed to it as well via incredibly stupid business decisions.

I agree with you though, I despise free agency but in all honesty I can't blame the players. I have the right as we all do of changing jobs and so should the players. The owners themselves brought on free agency and they continue to make irrational business decisions (look at the $ being paid out this year to free agents). Just to read baseball history and understand how the owners controlled players contracts in the past is deplorable.

[Shotgun Shuba]

You are right, I am sure. But, you must admit Flood is an icon of free agency. As for your comparison to regular working people, that is where I disagree. Take the NBA players recent filing for unfair labor practices due to a ball they didn't like. Are they serious? multi-millionares making the same claim a minimum wage factory worker would make? Sports is a completely different entity and that is what people do not understand. Players have gained so much, but I don't think they realize what they have lost. When a player like Bagwell or Biggio retires they are beloved by the fans who truly can call them their own. When Rickey Henderson retired (retires?) people yawned from Oakland to NY. He was a vagabond, a mercenary. When it costs me $200 to go to a ball game I dont curse the owners, I curse the greed of the players. Their patron saint you ask? Curt Flood.

[VIBaseball]

Lets get some facts straight here. Curt Flood had virtually nothing to do with free agency. He lost his case easily. Marvin Miller didn't even want him to try to test the reserve clause because the time wasn't right and he didn't think Flood's case had a chance. Turned out he was right. Very few players, past or present at the time, testified on Flood's behalf. A number of players told Flood not to go through with it.

It wasn't until several years later that Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally tested the reserve clause and won spearheaded by Marvin Miller. Both had played without contracts the year before making it a perfect setting for a test of the reserve clause. In McNally's cas, it was perfect as he was planning to retire anyway and did retire. Messersmith took on the real challenge as his career was still ongoing.

As well, A's owner Charles O. Finley unwittingly contributed to it as well via incredibly stupid business decisions.

I came away from the book with some different ideas, yanks 0714:

First, Flood actually came very close indeed to winning his case in the Supreme Court...it was a cliffhanger. One of the really interesting dimensions that author Brad Snyder covers is the workings of the Court in this case. There was a 4-4 split because Justice Lewis Powell recused himself on the grounds that he owned Anheuser-Busch stock and was conflicted. Then the Chief Justice at the time, Warren Burger, switched his vote late to make it 5-3. Also, Flood's attorney -- former Justice Arthur Goldberg -- did an awful job before the Court.

Second, Marvin Miller played more of a devil's advocate role. He consistently pointed out to Flood what an uphill climb he faced and what the risks were. But that's a different matter from not wanting him to try. Miller was Flood's ally. The suit had the union's backing. True, no players actually testified. But the player reps questioned Flood closely before they lent their support. Although Goldberg waived some of his fees, there were costs, and who do you suppose footed them?

Third, Snyder does a really good job of showing what happened between Flood's loss and (as you rightly point out) the dawn of true free agency with Messersmith and McNally. Flood laid the groundwork for what was to come. Snyder himself has said, "You can't connect the dots, but he changed the temperature of public opinion." Miller said it focused attention and educated people -- the players, media, the general public, politicians.

Anyway, my original goal on this thread was to show Jackie Robinson's influence on Flood. Here's an interview with Snyder that talks more about that.

http://www.gelfmagazine.com/mt/archives/curt_floods_tragic_fight.html

This 2003 interview with Marvin Miller on the Flood casealso touches on Jackie:

http://www.all-baseball.com/bronxbanter/archives/002935.html

[VIBaseball]

When Rickey Henderson retired (retires?) people yawned from Oakland to NY. He was a vagabond, a mercenary.

I'd like to see an up-to-date study on player mobility. But let's look at Rickey's individual case. He really became a vagabond at the tail end of his career, when he was looking to hang on anywhere he could. Before that, three separate times he chose to return to Oakland as a free agent. And I don't think greed was mainly what drove him, if you check out his salary history. He got a hefty bump in 1994 and another sizable one in 1999...but took a major cut in 1998.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/henderi01.shtml

When it costs me $200 to go to a ball game I dont curse the owners, I curse the greed of the players.

I don't. I think the players are acting rationally and the clubs are not. I'm not arguing for collusion to hold down salaries or for baseball to go the way of the NHL. But who's making the outlandish offers? And plus, I still think there's a lot of creative accounting going on and that MLB is more profitable than it discloses. Owners are washing their salary costs through consumers any way they can: ticket prices (especially if they can gouge you around the playoffs with bogus charges), concessions, cable fees. They could probably cut us a break, but as long as demand is relatively inelastic...they won't.

Their patron saint you ask? Curt Flood.

That is, the half or fewer of them who even know his name let alone what he did.

[stan opdyke]

I have not read Brad Snyder's book, but I must say I am repulsed by the title. I did read his previous baseball book, Beyond the Shadow of the Senators, and it was excellent. I imagine I will read the Flood book in due course, but I sure wish Snyder had picked a different title. Equating slavery with baseball's reserve clause misses the mark about both slavery and the reserve clause.

[musial6]

Flood was an idealist and an artist, who happened to play a great center field.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Strangely enough, his fielding cost the Redbirds the Series in '68.

[tonypug]

Getting back to the origonal premise of the thread, its nice to see Flood give credit to Jackie Robinson. Too many black players today, have no concept of what Robinson went through to allow them to make the salaries they make today. Some claim they don't even know who Robinson was, and that is a tragedy. I also never realized theat Flood played in Ebbets Field, that is interesting.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I can scarcely think of two men more polar opposite in their goals. Jackie fought for the right to play, Flood fought for I gots to get paid!!!!

Maybe Gandhi and Donald Trump? Martin Luther King and T.O.?

[tonypug]

I can scarcely think of two men more polar opposite in their goals. Jackie fought for the right to play, Flood fought for I gots to get paid!!!!

Maybe Gandhi and Donald Trump? Martin Luther King and T.O.?
Shotgun, you keep veering away from what the subject matter is.

[VIBaseball]

Tony, I think he is actually back on topic, sort of -- but there's one key thing Shotgun may be missing, and I could have mentioned it when I started this thread.

Jackie actually testified on Flood's behalf during the suit.

Also, the Gelf magazine interview I posted above contains speculation about whether Jackie could possibly have challenged the reserve clause as well back in 1956 after the business with Buzzie Bavasi and the Giants. Brad Snyder said it was a new question; he doubted it mainly because it would have given Jackie yet another huge burden to carry.

[tonypug]

Tony, I think he is actually back on topic, sort of -- but there's one key thing Shotgun may be missing, and I could have mentioned it when I started this thread.

Jackie actually testified on Flood's behalf during the suit.

Also, the Gelf magazine interview I posted above contains speculation about whether Jackie could possibly have challenged the reserve clause as well back in 1956 after the business with Buzzie Bavasi and the Giants. Brad Snyder said it was a new question; he doubted it mainly because it would have given Jackie yet another huge burden to carry.
I was going to ask what Jackie's feelings were about Flood's case. Thanks for answering that question. In 1957, in an interview published in the Sporting News, Jackie said that he thought some sort of reserve clause was necessary for the good of the game. I wonder if his thoughts had changed, when he testified in Floods behalf.When Jackie was traded to the Giants in December of 1956, there were alot of harsh words exchange, but I don't think anything illegal was done according to the rules and laws of that time.

[musial6]

I can scarcely think of two men more polar opposite in their goals. Jackie fought for the right to play, Flood fought for I gots to get paid!!!!

Maybe Gandhi and Donald Trump? Martin Luther King and T.O.?


The purpose of Flood's suit was to prevent his BEING TRADED WITHOUT HIS CONSENT.

[VIBaseball]

Here are some key quotes from Brad Snyder's book with regard to Jackie. I am trying not to take them out of context:

"In the February 15 issue of Jet, Robinson had spoken out on Flood's behalf: 'I think Curt is doing a service to all players in the leagues, especially for the younger players coming up who are not superstars. All he is asking for is the right to negotiate."

"He had agreed to testify, he told Miller, because he 'thought Flood was a courageous young man.' Miller knew that Robinson's testimony came with some baggage. He reminded Robinson that he had told a 1958 Senate subcommittee, 'I am highly in favor of the reserve clause.' The owners, Miller said, would use Robinson's prior testimony to discredit him. Robinson was unfazed. 'I was young and ignorant at the time...But I know differently now, and I won't hesitate to say so.'"

"Goldberg asked Robinson his opinion about the reserve clause. "[A]nything that is one-sided in this country is wrong, and I think the reserve clause is a one-sided thing in favor of the owners, and I think it certainly should at least be modified to give a player an opportunity to have some control over his destiny.'"

"Robinson concluded his testimony with a ringing endorsement of Flood...For Flood, Robinson's 'soliloquy...sent chills up and down my spine.' His hero had just stood up for him in open court for taking on the baseball establishment just as Robinson had done 23 years earlier."

That's just a taste of this aspect of the book. It is definitely worth reading.

[tonypug]

Good stuff VI thanks for the excerpts.

[yanks0714]

Getting back to the origonal premise of the thread, its nice to see Flood give credit to Jackie Robinson. Too many black players today, have no concept of what Robinson went through to allow them to make the salaries they make today. Some claim they don't even know who Robinson was, and that is a tragedy. I also never realized theat Flood played in Ebbets Field, that is interesting.

I agree with you on this. Jackie Robinson is a hero of mine and not just for his exploits on the ballfield. He was his own man. Made his own decisions. He was a black man who actually supported Republican Richard Nixon at one time! He felt that the Democrats were taking the black for granted. He later changed his mind about Nixon the man though.

It is a crying shame that kids of today, especially black African-American kids, do not realize who Jackie Robinson was. What he means, what he did, what he accomplished in baseball and his life.
Reading his life story should be made required reading by all.
This man was giant among men.

[JamesWest]

[QUOTE=yanks0714]I agree with you on this. Jackie Robinson is a hero of mine and not just for his exploits on the ballfield. He was his own man. Made his own decisions. He was a black man who actually supported Republican Richard Nixon at one time! He felt that the Democrats were taking the black for granted. He later changed his mind about Nixon the man though.

QUOTE]

This is certainly true of Robinson later in life, but I don't think I'd make that characterization of him when he was a young ballplayer. I think his testimony against Paul Robeson was not one of his finest moments, whether it was orchestrated by Branch Rickey or not.

Robinson supported Nixon in the 1960 Presidential election, but soon moved to the more moderate Rockefeller wing of the party.