Dimaggio VS Pujols

[Myankee4life]

Taking everything into account (Fielding, Running, etc) Through their six years who would you take......

Dimaggio

.345/198/816/.408/.626 OPS+ 161 735(R) 1163(H) 214(2B) 69(3B) 336(BB)


Pujols

.332/250/758/.419/.629 OPS+ 171 748(R) 1159(H) 260(2B) 12(3B) 493(BB)


From the graphic Pujols seems to be comfortably ahead in hitting. He leads in HR, OBP, SLG, R, 2B, BB and has a 10 point lead in OPS+.

Now does Dimaggio's great play in CF trump Pujols offense. Keep in mind the ballpark that Dimag played in. Also remember that Pujols is a very good fielding 1B.

[brett]

Yes. Dimaggio's defensive play in CF makes up for 10 OPS+ points with a little to spare.

[Minstrel]

Joe DiMaggio's first six seasons: 65.5 WARP3
Albert Pujols' first six seasons: 68.6 WARP3

WARP3 factors in position and defensive contribution. It has this as a very close competition, but agrees that DiMaggio's defense wasn't enough to close Pujols' gap on offense.

[Myankee4life]

How does Win Shares see this?

[Wee Willie]

Joe DiMaggio's first six seasons: 65.5 WARP3
Albert Pujols' first six seasons: 68.6 WARP3

WARP3 factors in position and defensive contribution. It has this as a very close competition, but agrees that DiMaggio's defense wasn't enough to close Pujols' gap on offense.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that DiMaggio amassed his 65.5 WARP3 in only 825 games, whereas Pujols got his 68.5 in 933 games. Per-game, DiMaggio is ahead by 8% while Pujols' total is only better by 4.6%. Although DiMaggio was injured more often, his teams only played the 154-game schedule. I actually like to work off WARP1 and make my own league-quality assessments. DiMaggio's has the higher WARP1 - 67.4 to 65.3, and my league quality disparity between the two is not quite as high as BP has it, so I come out with Joe D being slightly better in his first 6 seasons.

I also give a little extra allowance to Joe for playing in YS since WARP and WS since Park Factors can't quite address his individual case accurately enough.

[Wee Willie]

How does Win Shares see this?
Win Shares has Pujols at 219 and DiMaggio at 200 thru 6 seasons. Most of the 19 WS disparity comes from Joe playing a 154 game schedule. Had Joe been playing a full 162 during those seasons, he would've played about 50 more games and likely put up about 12 more WS, giving him a total of 212 in 875 games. Pujols has 219 in 933 games. Joe again has a per-game average, and Pujols has the league quality advantage. Pujols probably fares better in the WS battle than in WARP3, but I still give the slight nod to Joe to to the YS factor.

If Pujols has an '07 similar to '06, I'd probably put Pujols ahead comparing the two thru 7 seasons.

[csh19792001]

I also give a little extra allowance to Joe for playing in YS since WARP and WS since Park Factors can't quite address his individual case accurately enough.

That's true- the uber stats don't give Dimaggio enough credit. Think of how tough it would be for Albert had he been in a park that was:

Short Left-402'
Left Field-457'
Center Field- 461'
Right Field- 407'

Dimaggio was a perfect baseball player his first 6 years. Despite playing in a pitchers' park, and one of the worst for right handed power hitters, his line was .345/.408/.626 with 198 homeruns and ONLY 160 career strikeouts. In 37' he had 418 total bases and produced the 7th most runs of any American Leaguer in any single season- and all of this as the best centerfielder in the game.

Couple interesting footnotes:

In 39' Dimaggio was hitting .408 at the beginning of September, incurred a horrendous eye infection, and yet Manager McCarthy kept him in the lineup, and he missed his opportunity.

Here's that story. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=758546&postcount=10)

In 1948, he played the entire season in excruciating pain, in a valiant attempt to carry his team to the pennant that fell just short. Dimaggio had an elbow operation in January, and suffered with pain from small breaks and bone spurs in his feet thereafter. Despite all that, he led the league in HR, RBI (155), Total Bases, OPS+, and was second in basically every other important statistic.

Pujols has worked very hard to become a great fielder (which he now is)- he was awkward and clumsy when he came into the league. He's an excellent baserunner for a giant, and he's one of the greatest hitters of all time. He plays the game it SHOULD be played, much as Dimaggio did- all out physically and with his head, too.

This is a tough call- it's hard to compare guys who played close to 70 years apart. They're both alltime greats, without a doubt, and owners of perhaps the two best starts to a career in history.

[iPod]

Intuitively I think I'd take DiMaggio, but then again I really love DiMaggio. It's close. For some reason, I've had the impression fielding is a little underrated in win shares, and I'm not convinced things like win shares, WARP, and so forth truly capture how much Yankee Stadium killed Joe D.

[ElHalo]

I voted for Pujols, but I'd like to point out that DiMaggio was supposedly the most beautiful player ever to watch play (aesthetically speaking, in his style of play), while Pujols... I had never seen Pujols play before this year's World Series, and let me tell you... that might be one of the most annoying batting stances this side of Craig Counsell. Just really looks foolish. Makes me want to slap him in the face.

[dl4060]

In 1948, he played the entire season in excruciating pain, in a valiant attempt to carry his team to the pennant that fell just short. Dimaggio had an elbow operation in January, and suffered with pain from small breaks and bone spurs in his feet thereafter. Despite all that, he led the league in HR, RBI (155), Total Bases, OPS+, and was second in basically every other important statistic.


.

Joe D was probably more deserving of the MVP in 48' than he was in 41' or 47'. He had a pretty amazing season. It's amazing that he was able to put together a season like that in pain. Williams and Boudreau were also outstanding that season, any one of those three would have been a good choice.

This is a REALLY tough one to answer. So much so that I will have to hold out.

Was it the pain in his feet that caused him to retire? That sounds familiar, but I really don't know.

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

I voted for Pujols, but I'd like to point out that DiMaggio was supposedly the most beautiful player ever to watch play (aesthetically speaking, in his style of play), while Pujols... I had never seen Pujols play before this year's World Series, and let me tell you... that might be one of the most annoying batting stances this side of Craig Counsell. Just really looks foolish. Makes me want to slap him in the face.

Pujols has one UGLY Stance, but the results are a thing of beauty. And frankly that's really all that matters.

[ElHalo]

Pujols has one UGLY Stance, but the results are a thing of beauty. And frankly that's really all that matters.

Annoying batting stances really drive me nuts; I don't care how good a player is, I can't possibly like and / or respect them if they have a stupid batting stance. My favorite player, Derek Jeter, is right on the borderline of disrepute because his batting stance is almost, but not quite, ridiculous.

[csh19792001]

Tough one to answer. So much so that I will have to hold out.

Was it the pain in his feet that caused him to retire? That sounds familiar, but I really don't know.

You're in luck, dl. :) I've done a decent amount of reading/research on Joe D.



If the bone spurs were too much - I get it. Otherwise, I don't know.

Well, here you go. :)

Joe had endured foot problems his entire career- tracing all the way back to 1936, when the famous old Yankees trainer "Doc" Painter put Joe's foot in a "Diathermy Machine" and burned him so badly that Dimaggio missed missed an entire month- spring training and three weeks of the season. Foot problems coupled with botched remedies was a recurring theme in his career.

Joe's postwar career was replete with a litany of ailments and injuries- both chronic and discrete. He was famous for playing all out, sacrificing his body on hard slides and diving catches, and that coupled with a seemingly frail physique made for a host of problems.

In 46', his heel spurs got so bad that the pain was unbearable- he only hit five homeruns the entire second half of the year and played in crippling pain. In mid June he sprained his ankle and tore cartiledge in his knee after catching his spikes while sliding hard into second. He had to be carried off the field. When he returned, he was quoted in The Times as saying

"In my case, it generally looks as if somebody had shortened the distance between the plate and the box, and the pitcher is right on top of me. The result is that when I swing, my bat is behind me when it should be in front of me, and I'm not able to get it out in time to meet the ball. I worry. My stroke is off."

In the spring of 47', the Yanks played exhibitions in San Juan, Caracas, and Havana. When Dimaggio was picked up from the airport Puerto Rico, the Yankees traveling secretary commented that "Joe came off the plane hobbling with a cane. His heel was grotesque- it was stiched up like a bad shoemaker had fixed it." Penicillin, the newly developed panacea, did nothing for Dimaggio, and maggots were sewn underneath the skin in hopes of eating aaway the infection/dead flesh.

Later that year, the doctors of Johns Hopkins took a piece of skin from Dimaggio's thigh and grafted it onto the wound.

In 48', he again played an entire season in seething pain. The stabbing pain in Joe's heel and the knee pain were brutal. Every day the team trainer would wrap his thigh with a tight cinch of gauze and tape, and then another around his midriff to counterbalance the one on his leg.

"One by one, he ticked off the places where he had to be taped: his charley horse thigh, his cinch around his midriff, a patch on his hip for a strawberry slider, a bandage on his left hand. 'I'm playing, but I feel like a mummy' he quipped." (Cramer)

In the winter of 48', Dimag went to Baltimore once again to have his heel operated on at Johns Hopkins. He arrived at spring training on cruches, and the by March 2nd he could hardly walk. Back again for another operation, again unsuccessful- the infection was so bad that his foot radiated a constant heat. He was hospitalized for nearly three months, and the boatloads of painkillers gave him ulcers. He wasn't even able to be a pallbearer at his father's funeral in June of that year. Joe missed eight of eleven opening day starts at that point due to injury. Of course, how Dimaggio came back to carry his team to the pennant over Boston, playing in incredible pain throughout, is part of his legacy and lore

Dimaggio's arm essentially went dead the last few years of his career (he'd had elbow problems, and operations, on several occasions before that). He commented later that he only had "one good throw per game", and as a result, never even engaged in long toss during warmups, which is a universal for outfielders. On June 3rd on 1950, due to arm problems, he even consented to play first base and handled thirteen putouts without an error. Dimag moved back to center field only because Hank Bauer sprined his ankle sliding into second base.

In April of 51' the pain in his shoulder caused him to miss an entire month. He could hardly throw or swing a bat. Others commented that he could no longer turn on the ball (Dimaggio himself called the homers he hit over the cheap right field wall "piss homers....I could piss over that wall."

The other main factor, aside from the injuries, was that Dimaggio grew to hate Stengel (and vice versa). When Stengel tried to substitute Johnny Hopp for him in center field during the second inning of a June 6th game at Yankee Stadium, Dimaggio vowed never to speak to Stengel again. Stengel responded by benching him during the entire All Star game in an effort to humiliate him.

Milton Gross wrote about the summer of 51': "I did recognize a profound difference in the personal climate that surrounds Dimaggio and the Yankees this season. It is a frigid one, all because Joe, who always a strange man, difficult to understand, is now living in a shell which is virtually impenetrable."

It took four rooms to stage Dimaggio's official statement of retirement:

"I told you fellows last spring I thought this would be my last year. I only wish I could have had a better year, but even if I had hit .350, this would have been the last for me. You all know I have had more than my share of physical injuries and setbacks during my career. In recent years these have been too frequent to laugh off. When baseball is no longer fun, it's no longer a game.

And so, I've played my last game of ball."

And one other thing....Dimaggio, unlike almost all of the stars of his era and all of those preceeding his, also did not need the money. He had what was purported to be roughly a million dollars stowed safely away at the Bowery Bank in Manhattan.

Recommended Reading:
-Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?: The story of America's last hero (Allen)
-Summer of '49 (Halberstam)
-Joe DiMaggio : The Hero's Life (Cramer)

[csh19792001]

Interesting that Stengel had seemingly changed his advice. I've read that Stengel had been imploring Mantle to study Joe that season. "Watch the Daig" he'd said. They also called him the Big Dago, in a loving way, of course (nearly every player back then had a moniker that sounded derogatory but was usually used in a jovial way, it seems).

Also, the new Yankee coach in 51' was Tommy Heinrich, whose instruction included the admonition “You play off Dimaggio”. Cramer writes in his biography:

This also gives some insight into Dimaggio's brilliance in the field (and coldness as a person).

But still, in 1951, Mick was green as the grass in right field: he’d never seen these batters- had no idea how they hit, where to play. And Henrich hadn’t quite drummed home the crucial instruction. "You Play Off Dimaggio." Joe was a Univac out there. He no only knew every hitter in the league; he knew what every Yankee pitcher would throw; and he’d see, right away, if their curve wasn’t biting, if they’d lost a couple inches on their fastball- then the hitter would get around just that much faster, and Joe would be shading two or three steps into the alley where the hitter would pull the ball (right into Dimaggio’s glove). Every other kid on the Yankees learned: Watch the Dago- if he moved, you move. Not Mantle. He wouldn’t look at Dimaggio. Maybe he couldn’t. Joe would be flicking his glove at the kid, like he was shooing a fly- move over!! Mantle would stare in at the plate until the ball was hit, and then he’d chase it to the wall.

Perhaps, though, Stengel saw something that Series that none of us could or can 50+ years later. And perhaps he warned Mantle accordingly to go for more balls in that series. These are the kinds of recondite little bits of information that are vital to winning games, but that only the people inside baseball, watching and studying day in, day out would notice.