Negro League to MLB

[The Kid]

According to records, Josh Gibson hit over 800 homers and Satchel Paige won over 500 games. What numbers do you think they would have put up if they had spent thier careers in the bigs? Mine:

Satchel Piage: 400 wins, 2.59 ERA, 3690 Ks

Josh Gibson: 700 homers, 2000 RBIs, 500 doubles

[Brian McKenna]

All hyped numbers.

This has been done here over and over but:
1) the accounting of 800 home runs is just a guesstimate
2) Who were they against - local heros??
3) Gibson didn't just play from April to September as MLs do
4) How would a man abusing drugs and alcohol, rapidly gaining weight and dead by his mid 30s hit 700 home runs?

Paige had a rubber arm but how would it stand up if he had to face ML-caliber hitting day in and day out?

[JamesWest]

Recently, I was at a local bookstore ans was looking through a book of oral histories that was compiled by Fay Vincent.

One of his subjects was Bob Feller. I read through it and found Feller's comments about the Negro Leagues to be pretty interesting.

Feller talked about facing Josh Gibson and said that while Gibson was a great fastball hitter, he couldn't hit a curveball to save his life. Feller did not go into detail about whether he was talking about a normal everyday curveball or a Feller curveball. This has me thinking what kind of Major League hitter Gibson would have been with such a weakness.

I am of the opinion that the reputations of Negro Leaguers have become overblown over the passage of time. I also wonder why certain numbers guys rank the NeLers so highly. I understand that there were players who dominated the NeLs, nut I also think that the Nels were minor league at best. Nobody that I've ever read has listed Buzz Arlett or Ike Boone as all-time greats.

Feller also took issue with Buck O'Neil about O'Neil saying the black teams consistantly beat Feller's aquad during their barnstorming days, saying 'I have the scorebooks.'

I think it's a shame that guys like Gibson could not play Major League ball, but all the hand-wringing in the world isn't going to change the fact that there was a color line in baseball. That said I think it's ludicrous to rank NeLers among Major Leaguers, based strictly on Negro League performance.

[Brian McKenna]

I am of the opinion that the reputations of Negro Leaguers have become overblown over the passage of time.


On a strict basis I have to agree with you. The problem was the day in and day out quality of the competition the teams faced, especially the opposing pitcher.

Gibson was definitely something special but he wasn't facing major league-caliber pitching the entire season. I think he would have done well in the MLs if given the time to adjust to the curve or whatever challenges he may have had. But, there is no way he was going to put up the near-mythical numbers many just flippantly toss around.

[Dalkowski110]

"Nobody that I've ever read has listed Buzz Arlett or Ike Boone as all-time greats."

Hehe...this PCL fan does...both Arlett and Boone (along with Smead Jolley) proved that they could hit and hit well, for both power and average, on a Major League level. However, their poor fielding and the PCL offering higher contracts (plus Arlett and Jolley getting late starts due to them beginning their careers as moderately successful pitchers) ultimately doomed them.

My guess is that there would have been both successes and failures with the NeL'ers. Ones you wouldn't expect, in some cases. It was clear that guys like Smokey Joe Williams (in particular), Rube Foster, and Oscar Charleston were something special, and that everyone could see it. Satchel Paige also succeeded on a Major League level, even at a late date. Would he have been a super-pitcher had he appeared in the Majors? Probably not. But he definitely showed that he was Major League quality. Look at his Cleveland years at 43 years old. Similar story with Monte Irvin. And Roy Campanella would doubtless have had a better MLB career (and is still in the Hall for his MLB accomplishments). Chet Brewer was offered numerous tryouts, but segregation got in the way. Ray Dandridge would also probably have made the Majors. The ultimate question would go to Josh Gibson. IMO, Charleston or Turkey Stearnes (and Biz Mackey, for someone at the same position) probably had a better chance of succeeding, considering Gibson's fielding. But his hitting was undoubtedly at least above average. My guess is he could have made it.

[JamesWest]

My guess is that there would have been both successes and failures with the NeL'ers. Ones you wouldn't expect, in some cases.

I completely agree with you about this. I think some of these guys would have been superstars, but I think that some legendary names would have been good players, but as good as their reputations would have you think.

[autocut]

That said I think it's ludicrous to rank NeLers among Major Leaguers, based strictly on Negro League performance.

I think that door swing both ways when you look at Mantle, Ruth, DiMaggio. It's comparing apple and oranges.

[autocut]

I completely agree with you about this. I think some of these guys would have been superstars, but I think that some legendary names would have been good players, but as good as their reputations would have you think.

I think a lot of them would have been good if they played in their prime. Sam Jethroe was 1950 ROY and 32 years old. Satchel Paige was pushing 43.

[JamesWest]

I think a lot of them would have been good if they played in their prime. Sam Jethroe was 1950 ROY and 32 years old. Satchel Paige was pushing 43.

I don't think Paige was that old when he began his career with the Indians.

[Dalkowski110]

"I don't think Paige was that old when he began his career with the Indians."

Haven't we gone over the birth cirtificate thing before? Paige WAS 43. Otherwise, there would have to have been a person with the exact same traits he had as an infant, with the same parents, but named Leroy Robert Page (his birth certificate was misspelled...Paige could care less about confirming this...it just added to his reputation). He probably would have had over 200 wins, barring arm injury. His "hesitation pitch" was not a doctored ball, and would have likely confused hitters for years (especially mixed in with his fastball...Satchel's best attribute was how he could change speeds so well).

[JamesWest]

"I don't think Paige was that old when he began his career with the Indians."

Haven't we gone over the birth cirtificate thing before? Paige WAS 43. Otherwise, there would have to have been a person with the exact same traits he had as an infant, with the same parents, but named Leroy Robert Page (his birth certificate was misspelled...Paige could care less about confirming this...it just added to his reputation). He probably would have had over 200 wins, barring arm injury. His "hesitation pitch" was not a doctored ball, and would have likely confused hitters for years (especially mixed in with his fastball...Satchel's best attribute was how he could change speeds so well).

I think Paige was between the ages of 39 and 41 when he began his career with the Indians.

[Edgartohof]

I think Paige was between the ages of 39 and 41 when he began his career with the Indians.

His debut was in 1948, at the ripe old age of 41.

[JamesWest]

His debut was in 1948, at the ripe old age of 41.

I think the prevailing attitude in Cleveland that year was that Paige was closer to 39, but I don't thoink he was anywhere near the 46 to 52 ages that are still quoted.

[The Kid]

I think the prevailing attitude in Cleveland that year was that Paige was closer to 39, but I don't thoink he was anywhere near the 46 to 52 ages that are still quoted.

I beleive he was 42 in his debut.

[autocut]

Wasn't Paige born in 1905? If he debut in 1948, that would have made him around 43 unless my calculator is broken.

[Brian McKenna]

Paige debutted on 7/9/1948, two days past his never been debunked 42nd birthday.

[Blackout]

All hyped numbers.

This has been done here over and over but:
1) the accounting of 800 home runs is just a guesstimate
2) Who were they against - local heros??
3) Gibson didn't just play from April to September as MLs do
4) How would a man abusing drugs and alcohol, rapidly gaining weight and dead by his mid 30s hit 700 home runs?

Paige had a rubber arm but how would it stand up if he had to face ML-caliber hitting day in and day out?


I think Gibson would've been a tad better of a hitter than Jimmie Foxx and a tad below Gehrig

what do I have to base that on? Nothing, but wasn't Fox done by 35 too?

[DaClyde]

I'm reading "Voices from the Great Black Baseball Leagues" (1992 Da Capo edition) at the moment, and something I notice in the appendix where they list a lot of the statistics is that the official seasons in the Negro Leagues were extremely short and erratic, usually involving fewer than 100 games in a given "season". Taking that into account, Josh Gibson's "guesstimate" 800 would have to include all his barnstorming games (which could have been as many or more than the actual official seasonal games) as well. In which case, comparing his "800" to Ruth's 714 is kind of pointless. I'm sure if all of Ruth's barnstorming homeruns were included he (and Aaron) would have well over 800 as well. That's not to take anything away from Gibson, but his 800 just seems like a mythic-type number that doesn't really mean anything.

[Williamsburg2599]

A little research done by Mr. Burgess to figure out how hold Satch was:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=697763&postcount=35

[Dogdaze]

A little research done by Mr. Burgess to figure out how hold Satch was:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=697763&postcount=35

Very Cool! :thumbsup:

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Here are some numbers, not a very big sample but I believe enough to illustrate that MLB pitching on a day to day basis was on a higher level than that of the Negro Leagues.

15 hitters listed that played some black baseball than went to MLB.
How they did, what they averaged.

-------------black baseball--------------MLB
--------------.319----------------------.271

Quite a difference. The number of at bats in black baseball for most of these hitters was significantly lower than the number of at bats in MLB
Some of the hitters on that list, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Junior Gilliam, Willie Mays, Sam Jethro, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby and Luke Easter.


Another list of 17 players who played black baseball and their numbers compared to how they did in the minors AAA.

-------------black baseball-----------Minor League AAA
----------------.320--------------------.301
A few of the 17 hitters, Hank Thompson, Minnie Minoso and Elston Howard.

As seen the batting average did drop from black baseball to MLB and even to Minor League AAA baseball.

No doubt some of these black hitters could hold their own in MLB but they did on average hit for a significantly higher in black baseball.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Some numbers league batting averages from some professional leagues.
MLB--------------------------.260
Negro Leagues 1930-1950-----.308
Japanese League--------------.278
Cuban WL-1920-1960---------.284
Mexican League 1938-1997----.310
Panama WL 1940-1959--------.329
Venezuela WL 1930-1959-----.365

The Japanese League led with the highest average per season home runs with 42, black baseball 15 and MLB 19.

It's evident that MLB had on average, day to day the highest level of quality pitching.[Quote]



I'm coming right back to my earlier post above. Are we to believe that black players in their own league were that much better than white MLB hitters. They bat .308 and MLB bats .260.

So the 20 year batting average in black baseball is .308 and over a 100+ year period MLB never bats .300 for one season and only one league the NL hits.300 for one year 1930.

Take your choice, it's an easy one. Either black baseball hitters were far superior to white MLB hitters... or the overall, the key word is "overall" pitching in black ball was not on the level of MLB.

[TRfromBR]

I have no doubt Paige would have been up there with very best, because of his incredible talent, endurance, mental strength and stability. I'd say the same for Charleston.

With respect to Gibson, he certainly had the raw hitting talent, but I guess we'll never fully know about the issues leading to his breakdown, and how that would have figured in an MLB career. I wouldn't be surprised that - minus the terribly inequitable circumstances of his life and times - he would have hit right alongside the big boys.

[Cucamongadan]

Here are some numbers, not a very big sample but I believe enough to illustrate that MLB pitching on a day to day basis was on a higher level than that of the Negro Leagues.

15 hitters listed that played some black baseball than went to MLB.
How they did, what they averaged.

-------------black baseball--------------MLB
--------------.319----------------------.271

Quite a difference. The number of at bats in black baseball for most of these hitters was significantly lower than the number of at bats in MLB
Some of the hitters on that list, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Junior Gilliam, Willie Mays, Sam Jethro, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby and Luke Easter.


Another list of 17 players who played black baseball and their numbers compared to how they did in the minors AAA.

-------------black baseball-----------Minor League AAA
----------------.320--------------------.301
A few of the 17 hitters, Hank Thompson, Minnie Minoso and Elston Howard.

As seen the batting average did drop from black baseball to MLB and even to Minor League AAA baseball.

No doubt some of these black hitters could hold their own in MLB but they did on average hit for a significantly higher in black baseball.

Of course it needs to be remembered that these numbers are from the late 40s and the 50s, when the black leagues were in decline. Also there is an invalid comparison in some instances when a long MLB career is compared to a short Negro League season or two.

As for the league batting averages pitching quality is a factor but so are average hitting quality, park factors, styles of play, the balls used, and umpiring tendencies. When looking at a players stats you need to look at how they did compared to the league average in each league. Going back to the statistics already presented, the 15 players who went from Negro Leagues to MLB, they batted .319 in Negro leagues that had a league average of .308; divide those two and they batted 103.5% of their league average. In MLB they batted .271 where the league average was .260; that is 104.2% of the league average. So that doesn't prove they didn't do as well in MLB- they actually improved just slightly from 103.5% to 104.2%

My opinion is that for much of the 20s and 30s and early 40s the overall quality in the best of the negro leagues was good enough to be considered major league caliber.. especially if one considers the Federal League and some of the 19th century leagues to be major leagues.

Statistically, there's really little go on except the exhibition games between black and white teams, which the black teams and players held their own very well in, and the data from the California Winter Leagues compiled in William McNeil's book. None of this data, limited though it is, suggests any overall trend that star players in those 20s and 30s black leagues would be less than star players in the white MLB of their time.

When Rube Foster organized the Negro National League in 1920 one of his stated goals was to give the black players an opportunity to show they could be such good professional ballplayers that the major leagues couldn't resist letting them play. I think he was right and it was obvious then and now that there was a huge pool of talent in black baseball would shine on any baseball field on the planet. It took 27 years but ultimately MLB couldn't resist; they didn't didn't start signing Robinson, Doby , Paige, et al, just because they believed in affirmative action.

[Cucamongadan]

Another of McNeil's books, The King of Swat (which came out in 1996, just before McGwire's, Sosa's and Bonds' exploits), made an attempt to project the MLB stats for the best all-time home run hitters in the major, minor, negro and Japanese leagues. From the final table in that book here are the leaders in average season performance, adjusted to 550 at bats at major league basepoints.

Name avg hr/550
Josh Gibson .312 61
Babe Ruth .342 50
Mule Suttles .279 43
Gavvy Cravath .287 43
Chino Smith .378 42
Harmon Killebrew .256 39
Ralph Kiner .279 39
John Beckwith .306 38
Turkey Stearnes .302 38
Ted Williams .344 37
Edgar Wesley .274 36
Mike Schmidt .267 36
Mickey Mantle .298 36
Dave Kingman .236 36
Jimmie Foxx .325 36

I think part of the reason Gibson's projected homers are so big is that he hit more homers that the Washington Senators teams the years he played at the same stadium.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Of course it needs to be remembered that these numbers are from the late 40s and the 50s, when the black leagues were in decline. Also there is an invalid comparison in some instances when a long MLB career is compared to a short Negro League season or two.
As for the league batting averages pitching quality is a factor but so are average hitting quality, park factors, styles of play, the balls used, and umpiring tendencies. When looking at a players stats you need to look at how they did compared to the league average in each league. Going back to the statistics already presented, the 15 players who went from Negro Leagues to MLB, they batted .319 in Negro leagues that had a league average of .308; divide those two and they batted 103.5% of their league average. In MLB they batted .271 where the league average was .260; that is 104.2% of the league average. So that doesn't prove they didn't do as well in MLB- they actually improved just slightly from 103.5% to 104.2%

My opinion is that for much of the 20s and 30s and early 40s the overall quality in the best of the negro leagues was good enough to be considered major league caliber.. especially if one considers the Federal League and some of the 19th century leagues to be major leagues.

Statistically, there's really little go on except the exhibition games between black and white teams, which the black teams and players held their own very well in, and the data from the California Winter Leagues compiled in William McNeil's book. None of this data, limited though it is, suggests any overall trend that star players in those 20s and 30s black leagues would be less than star players in the white MLB of their time.

When Rube Foster organized the Negro National League in 1920 one of his stated goals was to give the black players an opportunity to show they could be such good professional ballplayers that the major leagues couldn't resist letting them play. I think he was right and it was obvious then and now that there was a huge pool of talent in black baseball would shine on any baseball field on the planet. It took 27 years but ultimately MLB couldn't resist; they didn't didn't start signing Robinson, Doby , Paige, et al, just because they believed in affirmative action.



I did mention that factor, the greater number of at bats in MLB but that does not mean we can totally discount the finding, higher batting average in black baseball and lower in MLB. We also see the same result when compared to minor league baseball AAA. A group of 17 hitters hit .320 in black baseball and .301 in AAA baseball. Again a big difference in at bats but does that mean we toss out the finding totally.

I believe that pitching quality is the main reason for the higher batting average by black hitters in black baseball.You mention, park factors, style of play, the balls used and umpiring. I can go with that but even if do, what does it mean. The bottom line is for what ever the reason or reasons black hitters hit for higher averages in black baseball than they "did" in MLB and even minor league baseball, AAA.

At times in black baseball position players, infielders, outfielders were used as starting pitchers in black baseball due to lean pitching staffs and a great number of double headers played. Good hitters, average hitters would feast on that situation

Not to diminish black hitters, they proved they could hit with the best white hitters in MLB.

What I'm saying, when I some of those high batting averages reached in black baseball, I have my doubt many of those batting averages could be maintained in MLB.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Of course it needs to be remembered that these numbers are from the late 40s and the 50s, when the black leagues were in decline. Also there is an invalid comparison in some instances when a long MLB career is compared to a short Negro League season or two.

. Going back to the statistics already presented, the 15 players who went from Negro Leagues to MLB, they batted .319 in Negro leagues that had a league average of .308; divide those two and they batted 103.5% of their league average. In MLB they batted .271 where the league average was .260; that is 104.2% of the league average. So that doesn't prove they didn't do as well in MLB- they actually improved just slightly from 103.5% to 104.2%


Not sure I understand, bottom line they did not hit as well in MLB or even AAA baseball. I'm going by their batting averages in black, MLB and AAA baseball.

It has to be remembered this is a small number of black hitters batting average compared to all of MLB players batting average. This is the point you mentioned and valid one about the difference in at bats blacks had in black baseball and MLB.

We have some of the better black hitters to make it to MLB, 15 of them. They had to be some of the more promising black hitters to make it to MLB. We're comparing that small number compared to the rest of the leagues, hundreds of other hitters, some good, some bad and even MLB pitcher's batting averages

[bryanac625]

Here are some numbers, not a very big sample but I believe enough to illustrate that MLB pitching on a day to day basis was on a higher level than that of the Negro Leagues.

15 hitters listed that played some black baseball than went to MLB.
How they did, what they averaged.

-------------black baseball--------------MLB
--------------.319----------------------.271

Quite a difference. The number of at bats in black baseball for most of these hitters was significantly lower than the number of at bats in MLB
Some of the hitters on that list, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Junior Gilliam, Willie Mays, Sam Jethro, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby and Luke Easter.


Another list of 17 players who played black baseball and their numbers compared to how they did in the minors AAA.

-------------black baseball-----------Minor League AAA
----------------.320--------------------.301
A few of the 17 hitters, Hank Thompson, Minnie Minoso and Elston Howard.

As seen the batting average did drop from black baseball to MLB and even to Minor League AAA baseball.

No doubt some of these black hitters could hold their own in MLB but they did on average hit for a significantly higher in black baseball.


I was just looking at this old thread, basically the same argument of why the Negro Leagues did not compare to MLB.

I think what it is that upsets some people is that by saying the Negro Leagues was basically a minor league at best is one last insult-to-injury to those who were tragically shut out from MLB for something they had no control over. On the other hand, this opinion of the Negro Leagues, if it is true, would almost justify that exclusion, basically saying that it's too bad they didn't allow blacks to play, but "the truth" is that the great majority of these guys were not even big-league material.

One of the things about arguing sports is that you can't argue numbers (except Gibson's 800 HRs). Two will always be more than one. So an argument that a Negro League hitter that batted .300 with the black teams and .270 with the Giants will always win. But forget the numbers... I think we should praise the Negro Leagues for these reasons:

1. These men created their own league. Many people, when they have been told they can't play, simply go home and sulk. Give these guys credit for loving the game enough that they didn't let some people's ignorance stop them from fulfilling their dreams.

2. The NLs was the 3rd largest black business in the world. It was an organized, professional business. But I think a lot of people think of it as an operation held together like a science project of cheap glue and popsicle sticks. No, they weren't the Yankees (and neither was anyone else, BTW), but remember, the Phillies were an MLB team in name only for many years.

3. These men made it possible for blacks to break the color barrier in baseball. Maybe we'll never know how many homers Gibson really hit, but we do know that American society was racist beyond belief. they were the platform for the Jackie Robinsons, Willie Mayses and Ernie Bankses.

4. And isn't this the kind of affirmative action so many people want? I hear people complain quite often "Why do we have to have a separate black...?" Honestly, I wonder sometimes myself if there is still a need for such things. But isn't the NLs a great example of assimilation to the majority and then that black institution yielding its way?

Maybe Josh Gibson's HOF plaque declaring 800 homers is white guilt run amok. But there was a lot more to these guys than their numbers, just like any other baseball player.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

[QUOTE=Cucamongadan;896436]Of course it needs to be remembered that these numbers are from the late 40s and the 50s, when the black leagues were in decline. Also there is an invalid comparison in some instances when a long MLB career is compared to a short Negro League season or two.

As for the league batting averages pitching quality is a factor but so are average hitting quality, park factors, styles of play, the balls used, and umpiring tendencies. When looking at a players stats you need to look at how they did compared to the league average in each league. Going back to the statistics already presented, the 15 players who went from Negro Leagues to MLB, they batted .319 in Negro leagues that had a league average of .308; divide those two and they batted 103.5% of their league average. In MLB they batted .271 where the league average was .260; that is 104.2% of the league average. So that doesn't prove they didn't do as well in MLB- they actually improved just slightly from 103.5% to 104.2%

QUOTE]
You state the late 40s and 50s when the negro leagues were in decline. I'm saying black pitching overall was not on the same level as MLB was. You give reasons why they hit lower in MLB and AAA ball and in the end you say they actually hit better. I'm not buying all the math and equations your putting down. Why not keep it simple, look at the two leagues batting averages and give an easy explanation, why the great difference.

If you want proof that black baseball pitching "overall" was not on the level of MLB check my post #22. Black ball .308 and MLB.260.This goes back to black ball in the 1930s to 1950.

How does one league hit 48 points higher than another, it certainly can't be that much of a disparity in hitter quality, It's the pitching.

[Mischa]

How does one league hit 48 points higher than another, it certainly can't be that much of a disparity in hitter quality, It's the pitching.

Huh? Park effects, geography and numerous other factors other than pitching quality influence batting average discrepencies.

In the 1960s, batting averages were much higher in the majors than in Japan. By your logic, this means that Japanese pitchers were better though numerous more logical explanations exist.

The California League hit .271, the Florida State League .263 this year. Both are high class A. Does that mean that the California League had worse pitchers? Or perhaps they have more hitter-friendly parks and a more hitter-friendly climate? There are probably much more divergent examples of leagues with the same talent levels and different statistical outcomes due to other factors.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Huh? Park effects, geography and numerous other factors other than pitching quality influence batting average discrepencies.

In the 1960s, batting averages were much higher in the majors than in Japan. By your logic, this means that Japanese pitchers were better though numerous more logical explanations exist.

The California League hit .271, the Florida State League .263 this year. Both are high class A. Does that mean that the California League had worse pitchers? Or perhaps they have more hitter-friendly parks and a more hitter-friendly climate? There are probably much more divergent examples of leagues with the same talent levels and different statistical outcomes due to other factors.

First place let me make an adjustment. In my post #29 I listed the leagues batting as .308 black and .260 MLB. To be fair I realized I had gone back further than 1930 in the batting average for MLB.

Since that .308 for black baseball was from the years 1930-1950 I decided the fair way would be to do the same with MLB. I did and the league average for MLB in that time period was .269. So we still have a significantly higher league batting average in black baseball in those years, 39 points.

Still 39 points is hugh when were speaking of a whole league. You want to include factors other than pitching, that fine. The parks. the ball, the equipment, some short schedule seasons in black baseball, take it any where you want. But... the bottom line is still the same 39 points higher in black ball. Does it matter if it was just pitching or other factors, how is one league 39 points higher than another. Doesn't that tell us something, it's just common sense, conditions and pitching in black ball were more favorable for the hitters than conditions and pitching were in MLB. How could it be any other way or do we just assume that black hitters for no other reason were so much better that their league hit for 39 points higher.

California League hit .271 and and Florida League hit 263 your talking 8 points not 19, not 29 but 39 for black ball over MLB. That 8 points is nothing compared to 39 points. My point when some throw out some sky high batting averages from black ball consider the difference in pitching and conditions in MLB.

As for Japanese leagues compared to MLB give me some time and I will look into it.

[metrotheme]

Yeah I think it was the pitching. It was better day in and day out in the MLB system. As a test to the hitters in the Negro Leagues, look up the numbers of Ray Dandridge and Clinton "Butch" McCord when they got to the minors. Dandridge was the AAA MVP at like 37 as a rookie, imagine him in his prime?

[Chickazoola]

I have read a lot of first hand accounts from Negro Leaguers, and common theme that comes up is that most teams didn't have a lot of depth, particularly at pitcher.

So even if all 10 or so Negro League teams had on legitimate ace, few teams had more than 2 really good pitchers. And the back ends of their rotations were of marginal quality.

The Majors at the time has a lot more average-above average pitching talent than the Negro Leagues. So even if the best Negro pitchers were as good as the best ML pitchers, the overall quality was still noticeably lower.

[jalbright]

I have read a lot of first hand accounts from Negro Leaguers, and common theme that comes up is that most teams didn't have a lot of depth, particularly at pitcher.

So even if all 10 or so Negro League teams had on legitimate ace, few teams had more than 2 really good pitchers. And the back ends of their rotations were of marginal quality.

The Majors at the time has a lot more average-above average pitching talent than the Negro Leagues. So even if the best Negro pitchers were as good as the best ML pitchers, the overall quality was still noticeably lower.

The thing is, Negro League teams played about 3 league games a week (mainly on weekends) during the season (which is why they wound up with 80-90) and played "barnstorming" games the other days. The back end of the rotation got a lot of innings in those barnstorming games, while the aces often got few innings. If an ace was a real draw, like Paige, he'd pitch a few innings in a game, then leave or at least play OF or 1B. Some position players could pitch, especially for barnstorming level games. I'm not so sure that Negro League hitters faced lesser pitchers so much as they faced pitchers who "coasted" whenever and wherever possible in order to preserve their arms. If the ace was up 5-0 in the 7th or 8th, he'd try to coast, and might give up a few hits he wouldn't have had he borne down all game (or had a legitimate reliever on his team) and win 5-2 or 5-3.

Jim Albright