Bagwell

[CoachMJ]

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get 3000 hits, he struck out more times than he had an RBI. his career average was .297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. Maybe "he Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame" but not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that when everybody was fessing up to steroids, he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in college at UHA and he was a fungo. almost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.

[EvanAparra]

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get5 3000 hits, he struck otu more times than he had an RBI. his career average was 297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. mayeb The Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame, bt not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that during the steroid fiasco he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in coolege at UHA and he was a fungo. slmost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.

Sorry Coach, but you're completely and utterly wrong here.

HOF Standards: Batting - 59.0 (31) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 149.5 (78) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And that is WITH great defense, something that his slugging peers such as McGwire can't claim. One of the best players of the 90s, he and Biggio will both be in when it's all said and done.

Lets look at his "most similar players"...

Frank Thomas (897)
Gary Sheffield (895)
Fred McGriff (865)
Willie Stargell (844) *
Andres Galarraga (843)
Ken Griffey (834)
Orlando Cepeda (827) *
Mickey Mantle (818) *
Willie McCovey (813) *
Duke Snider (810) *

The guys with the asterik are already in the hall of fame, and Frank Thomas and Griffey are shoo-ins, with McGriff and Sheffield both also very likely to go in. Good company huh?

He's easily a HOFer, and maybe even a first ballot HOFer.

[TheJourneyman]

First ballot? Maybe?
HOFer? YES!

[punker268]

definetly HOF

[KCGHOST]

If we decide to keep Bagwell out because he wasn't good enough we will set a bar so high that we will only have inductions every five years or more. Also we will have to throw out 3/4ths the guys already in.

[CoachMJ]

If we decide to keep Bagwell out because he wasn't good enough we will set a bar so high that we will only have inductions every five years or more. Also we will have to throw out 3/4ths the guys already in.


But shouldnt it be hard to get in the hall of fame? i mean do we want it to be liek football where there are mandatory inductions every year? should players liek jim rice and don mattingly be in the HOF? don mattingly is y favorite player of all time. but he probably doesnt really deserve the hall of fame. i just was dumbfounded when i saw that 60 percent of the country thought bagwell should be in the hall. i think emotion gets involved to much with fans. the guy was a good hitter. great astro, good player, not a hall of famer.

[PopTop]

Bagwell's already in my HOF. Couldn't give a rat's rump what the goombahs with the BBWAA decide. During his active years, there isn't another 1B that I would take over Baggy who had it all: Power, speed, average, defense.

Steroids don't really figure into it for me. The BBWAA is going to hold their own court now on who is completely above suspicion for using enhacing drugs. This is the same group that buried their heads like the rest of us when it was all going on. This is also the same group that has never been able to totally agree on other greats like Willie Mays, Ted Williams, et al. Sorry, but I can't think of one reason, other than something personal, not to vote for players like Mays and Williams.

[CoachMJ]

Bagwell's already in my HOF. Couldn't give a rat's rump what the goombahs with the BBWAA decide. During his active years, there isn't another 1B that I would take over Baggy who had it all: Power, speed, average, defense.

Steroids don't really figure into it for me. The BBWAA is going to hold their own court now on who is completely above suspicion for using enhacing drugs. This is the same group that buried their heads like the rest of us when it was all going on. This is also the same group that has never been able to totally agree on other greats like Willie Mays, Ted Williams, et al. Sorry, but I can't think of one reason, other than something personal, not to vote for players like Mays and Williams.


I dont agree with the baseball writers assocation on much of what they say or vote for. i thnk jeff bagwell was a very good player. HOF? ehh. i mena not everone can make it in to the hall. and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I dont agree with the baseball writers assocation on much of what they say or vote for. i thnk jeff bagwell was a very good player. HOF? ehh. i mena not everone can make it in to the hall. and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.
Goombah also was a video game character. I really doubt PopTop meant it in a derogatory nature, but anyway . . .

Where do you draw the line, Coach? You mentioned the magical numbers of 500 and 3000. Is that your gauge?

[EvanAparra]

If Bagwell isn't voted in, I dont think i'll ever care about HOF voting again.

[CoachMJ]

Goombah also was a video game character. I really doubt PopTop meant it in a derogatory nature, but anyway . . .

Where do you draw the line, Coach? You mentioned the magical numbers of 500 and 3000. Is that your gauge?


no thats not my line, but i think those two make you a shoe-in. as long as it didnt take 22 years to get them. im just so surprised that so many peopel consider him a hall of famer. i mean his numbers are similiar to albert belles, but belle isnt a hall of famer. hey bagwell is a CT guy and im from CT. i liek him but HOF, i dont think so.

[Captain Cold Nose]

no thats not my line, but i think those two make you a shoe-in. as long as it didnt take 22 years to get them. im just so surprised that so many peopel consider him a hall of famer. i mean his numbers are similiar to albert belles, but belle isnt a hall of famer. hey bagwell is a CT guy and im from CT. i liek him but HOF, i dont think so.
He's considered a HOF'er because he was an excellent hitter who produced big numbers during his era. His numbers are very comparable to a lot of HOF players, as demonstrated by Evan's list. Is he Jimmie Foxx? No. If that's what you feel is a HOF'er, I can see excluding him. I watched Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker their entire careers, and I never felt they were really HOF'ers but there are scores of very knowledgable baseball people on this site who think otherwise. They haven't convinced me, but that's not for here.

I take it you're not a peak guy. Belle had a monster peak but his career value is not so hot.

[CoachMJ]

He's considered a HOF'er because he was an excellent hitter who produced big numbers during his era. His numbers are very comparable to a lot of HOF players, as demonstrated by Evan's list. Is he Jimmie Foxx? No. If that's what you feel is a HOF'er, I can see excluding him. I watched Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker their entire careers, and I never felt they were really HOF'ers but there are scores of very knowledgable baseball people on this site who think otherwise. They haven't convinced me, but that's not for here.

I take it you're not a peak guy. Belle had a monster peak but his career value is not so hot.

i dotn even think griffey should make the hall of fame. part of being a great athelte is stayign healthy enought to play. injuries are not a freak thing. they coem form nto conditioning properly and not enough flexibility. i lke bagwell but after he lost 60 pounds during the steroid fiasco and then couldnt stay healthy, i became sour.

[JackAigner]

Bagwell's shoulder was screwed up before Barry Bonds hit all those home runs and the steroid scandal heated up. It wasn't his muscles deteriorating, it was the fact his shoulder was bad and arthritic. He's among the top 5 first basemen of all time and a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr. Coach has seriously missed the mark.

[JackAigner]

You're right that it should be hard to make the hall of fame, but Bagwell isn't just another solid ballplayer. He was among the best of the best and, in many opinions, the best first baseman of his era.

Incedentally, I think Biggio was the greatest Astro ever, but that's for another discussion.

[CoachMJ]

You're right that it should be hard to make the hall of fame, but Bagwell isn't just another solid ballplayer. He was among the best of the best and, in many opinions, the best first baseman of his era.

Incedentally, I think Biggio was the greatest Astro ever, but that's for another discussion.


you know i thought about that. biggio being the greatest astro ever i mean.

Buster Onley must be following my posts becasue he just wrote an article, on espn-insider, discussing the very same topic.is bagwell hall of fame or not. as far as him beign the best first basemen of his era? i mean. there were a lot of great firstbasemen in the last 14 years. i dotn think he stuck out more than olerud or palmeiro or anymroe of the good firstbasemen.

[Captain Cold Nose]

i dotn even think griffey should make the hall of fame. part of being a great athelte is stayign healthy enought to play. injuries are not a freak thing. they coem form nto conditioning properly and not enough flexibility. i lke bagwell but after he lost 60 pounds during the steroid fiasco and then couldnt stay healthy, i became sour.
That's your own bias, but it's legit to a point. But players do get injured regardless of how well-conditioned they are. What if a player is beaned? What if they slide hard and break their leg. All the conditioning in the world isn't going to prevent the body from harm from what is essentially unnatural movement.
If Olney or anyone at ESPN took your idea, it won't be the first time that's happened. Can you post that article? I'm not an insider.

[CoachMJ]

That's your own bias, but it's legit to a point. But players do get injured regardless of how well-conditioned they are. What if a player is beaned? What if they slide hard and break their leg. All the conditioning in the world isn't going to prevent the body from harm from what is essentially unnatural movement.
If Olney or anyone at ESPN took your idea, it won't be the first time that's happened. Can you post that article? I'm not an insider.

yes hit by pitch and running into the catcher are accidents that cause injuries. but such a quick breakdown in joints and ligaments and such a dramatic increase in size all point to steroid abuse. i dotn disliek jeff bagwell at all. they guy was turned away at the university of new haven, went to the university of hartford and became a fantastic baseball player, beyond anyone who ever coached him, wildest dreams. i just think things should be more stringent when it comes to cooperstown. i also however believe that the players should have a vote when it comes to the hal lof fame. the writers are a joke.

[mwiggins]

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get 3000 hits, he struck out more times than he had an RBI. his career average was .297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. Maybe "he Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame" but not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that when everybody was fessing up to steroids, he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in college at UHA and he was a fungo. almost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.


How are those not HoF #'s? There's a 200 or so players in the HoF. He's 41st in career RBI and 33rd in career HR's. He's higher than Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, and Yogi Berra in RBI; and is within 50 of Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Harry Heilmann, and Joe DiMaggio.

He has more HR's than Ripken, Snider, Kaline, Bench, and Billy Williams.

He's also 44th in career OBP, 35th in career SLG, 24th in career OPS, 34th in career OPS+, 31st in career EBH, 24th in career walks, and 56th in career total bases. All that while playing in the Astrodome in a post-integration league.

He's absolutely one of the best 50 hitters of all time, in addition to being a very good fielder and baserunner. If that's not HoF worthy, then lesser players like Ripken and Gwynn are going to be in for a rude suprise when they hear the results of this year's voting.

I like a stringent Hall too, but if Bagwell's not worthy, then the first base wing at the HoF is basically Gehrig, Foxx, and a bunch of mistakes.

[PopTop]

and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

[lamearm]

Seem's I remember Martha Raye calling Rocky Grazianno Goomba on their tv show(showing my age or what/) and they were married. I guess the way it is viewed has changed from one era to the next. I just can't see pulling the race/bigot card on Pop.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Seem's I remember Martha Raye calling Rocky Grazianno Goomba on their tv show(showing my age or what/) and they were married. I guess the way it is viewed has changed from one era to the next. I just can't see pulling the race/bigot card on Pop.
Martha Raye and Rocky Graziano were married? Or was that the characters they were playing?
Grazaino was a little bit better actor than his byhood chum, Jake LaMotta. He did a great turn on Car 54 Where Are You with Sugar Ray Robinson.
Not showing my age, I saw it on Nick at Nite a few years back.

[CoachMJ]

First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

its ok big guy. im sure you didnt mean anything. LETS GO YANKS!!!!

ps: i now see that bagwell does have the numbers to be in the hall. not first ballot but i see it now. Also if mcguire doesnt go in thatn neother should Bags or Bonds or anybody who did juice. MJ

[CoachMJ]

First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

its ok pal.

[lamearm]

Martha Raye and Rocky Graziano were married? Or was that the characters they were playing?

Now, ya see there. That's one of the things that happen when a guy gets old! You are right, they weren't married, except on the show...

[PopTop]

ps: i now see that bagwell does have the numbers to be in the hall. not first ballot but i see it now.How much better will Bagwell become between the first year he's eligible and the second-third-fourth year? :confused:

[The Kid]

When your the icon of a team, you probably get into the hall.

[CoachMJ]

How much better will Bagwell become between the first year he's eligible and the second-third-fourth year? :confused:

ok pal. youre a baseball fan i assume. i also dare to assume that you have heard that phrase before, numerous times, and know exactly what it means. Bagwell is not first ballot and you will see that in five years when youre not making the trip to upstate new york to watch him go in. cal ripken, first ballot, dave winfield, first ballot, paul molitor, first ballot. Dennis eckersly first ballot. roger clemens will be first ballot. bagwell, not so much. jesus man you act like were talking about ted williams.

the "goombas" will get it right.

[PopTop]

So, pal, you're saying that Paul Molitor was a better ballplayer than Joe DiMaggio since Molly got in on the first ballot and Joe D didn't?

Never assume anything. For instance, I assumed you were a reasonable sort who didn't get into character assasinations just because someone disagrees with you. Boy, was I wrong.

[CoachMJ]

So, pal, you're saying that Paul Molitor was a better ballplayer than Joe DiMaggio since Molly got in on the first ballot and Joe D didn't?

Never assume anything. For instance, I assumed you were a reasonable sort who didn't get into character assasinations just because someone disagrees with you. Boy, was I wrong.

well i mean the question was kinda silly, wasnt it? i mean rhetorical. how can a guy get beter when he doesnt play? charachter assassinations aside. im simply saying that jeff bagwell is not a first ballot HOFer. gwynn, ripken,, bagwell?? thats all. put the astros pom poms down and think about it.

[EvanAparra]

well i mean the question was kinda silly, wasnt it? i mean rhetorical. how can a guy get beter when he doesnt play? charachter assassinations aside. im simply saying that jeff bagwell is not a first ballot HOFer. gwynn, ripken,, bagwell?? thats all. put the astros pom poms down and think about it.

I have no astros pom poms and I think he's a 1st ballot HOFer.

[mwiggins]

ok pal. youre a baseball fan i assume. i also dare to assume that you have heard that phrase before, numerous times, and know exactly what it means. Bagwell is not first ballot and you will see that in five years when youre not making the trip to upstate new york to watch him go in. cal ripken, first ballot, dave winfield, first ballot, paul molitor, first ballot. Dennis eckersly first ballot. roger clemens will be first ballot. bagwell, not so much. jesus man you act like were talking about ted williams.

the "goombas" will get it right.

You honestly don't think Bagwell's better than Molly and Winfield and Eck? Compared to them he IS Ted Williams.

[PopTop]

thats all. put the astros pom poms down and think about it.Ok, I've put the pom-poms down and thought about it some more, and I still think I was wrong to think that you were a reasonable person.

You're the one who said he was a Hall of Famer, just not a first ballot Hall of Famer. Last I heard, there was no distinction between those who get in on the first ballot or the second or the third, nor was there a separate wing of plaques for those who get in on the first ballot. So tell me again just what purpose it serves to wait after the first ballot if you think someone is a Hall of Famer. Please, do your best Paul Ladewski impersonation for us.

[CoachMJ]

Ok, I've put the pom-poms down and thought about it some more, and I still think I was wrong to think that you were a reasonable person.

You're the one who said he was a Hall of Famer, just not a first ballot Hall of Famer. Last I heard, there was no distinction between those who get in on the first ballot or the second or the third, nor was there a separate wing of plaques for those who get in on the first ballot. So tell me again just what purpose it serves to wait after the first ballot if you think someone is a Hall of Famer. Please, do your best Paul Ladewski impersonation for us.

no theres no seperation but when someone does get inducted on the first ballot it says something. mark m for example. on numbers alone he should have gotten in but he didnt. you dont think they were sending a msg there? so by your rationale youre sayign that some hall of famers werent better players or more deserving than others. right? i dotn know man. and now that i see mark m didnt get in cuz of steroids then i definiterly dotn think bagwell should either. and dont say he didnyt do them. dont make me whip out his college and minor league numbers, or the fact that when steroids became and issue he lost 50 pounds and couldnt play anymore. none of themn should make it in. mcguire, bonds, bagwell, palmeiro, giambi and anyone else who did them. sholess joe isnt in, pete rose isnt in. the bottom line is you break the rules you dotn go in. i have nothing more to say on this,cuz youre blinded by youre love for the astros. which is fine, but you like arguing, and are reiterating the same points. he wont go in and he wont go in first ballot. nor should he or any other growth hormone pinzer.

[CoachMJ]

You honestly don't think Bagwell's better than Molly and Winfield and Eck? Compared to them he IS Ted Williams.

no.............

[mwiggins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwiggins
You honestly don't think Bagwell's better than Molly and Winfield and Eck? Compared to them he IS Ted Williams.

no.............

Well, that pretty much says all I need to know about your knowledge of baseball history or your ability to evaluate baseball players. :confused:

Or, should I say, your ability to move beyond your obvious bias's....

[CoachMJ]

Well, that pretty much says all I need to know about your knowledge of baseball history or your ability to evaluate baseball players. :confused:

Or, should I say, your ability to move beyond your obvious bias's....


what biases? stop throwing out soundbytes. this isnt espn and nobody cares. i said NO i dont agree with you. and dont you dare attempt to judge my ablitly to judge players or baseball. cuz i still bust my ass to play every single sunday. torn labrum, bulging disk in my neck. NO STEROIDS. can bagwell say the same? can you? i believe that it shold be hard to et in the hall of fame. very hard. i dotn think griffey should go either but theyll let him in cuz of what he could have been. and you cant say injuries aside, because part of the game is staying healthy. sayign that bagwell is like TW compared to anyoen is retarded. jesus man. biases? wini had nearly 1000 more hits than bagwell in the same amount of years. jesus. and eck single handednly won a world series. and won and mvp and a cy young. whos got a prolem judging basbeall history. you guys are all border line psychopaths and ill tell you why. i started this thread by saying i didnt think he belonged at all in the hall, then after debate some of you changed my mind, and i agreed that he should get in the hall. but not first ballot. and you guys attack from a another angle. most of you proabably never win an argument with your wives/husbands so you take out your frustrations on here. splittig hairs and knitpicking. im going to hit some baseballs right now. im the only only one on this thread who can still say that. and now that mcguire didnt get in, i hope he and bagwell and the rest of the cheaters never get in.

times change and so do the voters but cheaters are always cheaters.

[PopTop]

you guys are all border line psychopaths and ill tell you why. i started this thread by saying i didnt think he belonged at all in the hall, then after debate some of you changed my mind, and i agreed that he should get in the hall. but not first ballot. and you guys attack from a another angle. most of you proabably never win an argument with your wives/husbands so you take out your frustrations on here. splittig hairs and knitpicking.

You really should have your meds adjusted, Coach. Ask them to include a large dose of reality and a few tabs of humility while you're at it.

You're not the only one in this thread who still goes out and hits baseballs or throws it around, by the way. Sorry to burst your little bubble on that subject.

[CoachMJ]

You really should have your meds adjusted, Coach. Ask them to include a large dose of reality and a few tabs of humility while you're at it.

You're not the only one in this thread who still goes out and hits baseballs or throws it around, by the way. Sorry to burst your little bubble on that subject.

Meds? thats funny coming from the WT biggot. And whos reality are we speaking of? yours? whats the name of that place? "Cheesburger paradise" where you never have to leave your computer and the astros win the world series every year?

and btw i know youre not playing baseball anymore. 2600 posts? thats not athletic.

lastly if you think bagwell, the man who hit 4 homeruns in his entire college career, who was reported to be a better soccer player in highschool than he was a BB player, wasnt on growth hormone, then reality and humility might not be enough for you. do you even know what humility means? what does my being humble have to do with this? read a book dude.

i wasnt bragging about playing ball , i was stating that there are guys who do it without the aid of steroids. and that cheaters who do it dotn deserve to be remembered in the hall of fame. but it looks liek you forgot we were talking about jeff bagwell.

[PopTop]

Meds? thats funny coming from the WT biggot.If you're going to call someone a name, you ought to at least spell it correctly. What's the WT for, by the way?

And according to our daily post average, you're spending more time on this site than I am. I still play softball with the old farts occasionally, and I spend a lot of time working with Little Leaguers in one capacity or another, from just simple games of catch to pitching BP to hitting infield.

Have fun growing up, kid.

[PopTop]

Oh, and since this thread seems to have more than outlived its intent, it's closed. If anyone has something constructive to say about Bagwell, we can always open another thread.