Fastest player ever

[The Kid]

Who do you think is the fastest player ever? I can't really decide, but I vote for the man of steal.

Lou Brock-single season steal record.

Ty Cobb-held stolen base record for over 40 years.

Rickey Henderson-statisticaly the best.

Willie Mays-just for that catch in '54 he's considered.

[candy curveball cummings]

Can we have an "other" option on this poll? Cool Papa Bell would get my vote.

[Dalkowski110]

Cool Papa Bell also gets my vote. As for Major Leaguers, Evar Swanson and Maurice Archdeacon are actually considered to be the fastest that were actually timed circling the bases.

[candy curveball cummings]

Lou Brock-single season steal record.


Unless I'm mistaken, Lou Brock doesn't have the single-season steal record. Rickey Henderson does (or Hugh Nichol, depending on your personal opinion).

[Brian McKenna]

None of the players listed.

Swanson circled the bases in a still-unmatched 13.3 seconds on September 15, 1929. He bettered it in the minors.

Willie Wilson
Billy Sunday
Hub Collins
Clyde Milan

[candy curveball cummings]

Swanson circled the bases in a still-unmatched 13.3 seconds on September 15, 1929. He bettered it in the minors.

Cool Papa Bell did that same time. Under better conditions, he probably could've done it faster than that.

[candy curveball cummings]

Another name: Herb Washington.

[Bench 5]

I would vote for Willie Wilson. Deion Sanders is also up there as far as pure speed.

There are different aspects to speed. Some guys are great at stealing bases, others going from first to third, others at covering ground in the outfield etc. Sometimes the best at one isn't the best at the others.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Who do you think is the fastest player ever? I can't really decide, but I vote for the man of steal.

Lou Brock-single season steal record.

Ty Cobb-held stolen base record for over 40 years.

Rickey Henderson-statisticaly the best.

Willie Mays-just for that catch in '54 he's considered.

Actually Mantle was faster than Mays, as documented by Bill James.

[-Kyle-]

Rixkey Henderson was extremely fast, but his good numbers are from him getting a great jump. Willie Wilson gets mine.

[brett]

Deion Sanders was the fastest player in history in my opinion. If you watched him, you noticed that the game actually changed with his speed-he could decide to go to third and be there before the fielder even realized he was going. His SBs were not great (75%) largely because he took small leads, and got bad breaks, but he had 43 triples out of 558 hits (7.7% of his hits-more than anyone but Crawford).

[Wee Willie]

None of the above. Cool Papa Bell, Willie Wilson, Mickey Mantle, and Bo Jackson would be better candidates for pure speed. At least 25% of base-stealing has nothing to do with pure speed.

[elmer]

Mickey is fastest circling at 'just under' 13 seconds

He and Cool Papa went into the HOF together on the same day!

How COincidentalOL is that.....

Elmer

[ElHalo]

Yeah, definitely none of the players on this list. It's gotta be Bell, or Mantle if you're just counting MLB players.

[Brian McKenna]

Mickey is fastest circling at 'just under' 13 seconds


When? Documented by who? How come it's not in the record book?

[Brian McKenna]

I realize all many know is the Hall of Famers but I can virtually assure you the fastest ever to play the game was not one of the all-time greats or even a tier or two below.

[Murderers Row]

Where's Mantle? Home to first in 3.1 seconds is pretty damn impressive.

[tearforamariner]

I realize all many know is the Hall of Famers but I can virtually assure you the fastest ever to play the game was not one of the all-time greats or even a tier or two below.

BK,

What is your opinion of Cool Papa Bell?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

These times around the bases are bogus imo.

We say that Mantle's fastest time down to first was 3.1 seconds. That's blazing. Who knows when they started the clock and he was in the lefty box. Even considering that number to be legit...he was running on a dead sprint for a short distance where his energy had no chance to lower. Even at that pace, with those advantages (not having to round the bags, not slowing up at all and running on loose dirt....) he would project to 12.4 seconds. Anyone who has played baseball can see how much of a time-factor all the negatives would be. Just rounding the bags compared to running in a straight line would add a huge amount of time, rendering these "13" second times impossible.

I go with Cool Papa and Cobb shouldn't be on the list. He wasn't the fastest in his own league at any given time, let alone the fastest in history.

[leecemark]

--Willie Wilson

[plask_stirlac]

Any support for Eric Davis? Cesar Cedeno? Jackie?

But yeah I'd say Deion, as in beating every other baseball player ever in a sprint (by a nose).

[Rookie1914]

Can we have an "other" option on this poll? Cool Papa Bell would get my vote.

My thoughts exactly!

[EvanAparra]

David Ortiz

[CTaka]

Ernie Lombardi

Other than the Schnozz, I have no idea. I put very little stock in most all of the times that have been given over the years. Mantle ran a 3.1 from home to first? In the All Star game, Ichiro, who must be the fastest or among the fastest today just going from home to first, was timed at 3.9 seconds. Can I accept that Mantle 50 years ago was faster than Ichiro today? It's possible. but he would have finished about 2-3 full strides ahead of Ichiro based on those times and I just don't buy that he could have been THAT much faster.

Deion Sanders is claimed to have run a 4.17 40. Bo Jackson is alleged to have run a 4.12 at the 1986 NFL combine. Do I believe those times? Pretty doubtful. I'm not saying Prime Time and Bo were slow; they were blazers. But when Ben Johnson set the then world record in the 100 meter dash in a steroid-aided 9.79 seconds in the 1988 Olympics, it was shown that he blazed through the first 40 yards in ....4.38 seconds??? Deion and Bo were fast, but do I think that they would have dusted Ben Johnson, running in spikes with a slight tailwind on a warm afternoon in the same race that he ran the fastest 100 meters of all time? Sorry, that's just way too big of a stretch for me.

But if all the baseball players were born, raised, trained, etc at the same time and under the same conditions, my guess is that folks like Deion, Bo, Willie Wilson, Jim Thorpe, Cool Papa Bell, Mickey Mantle and Joey Gathright would be right up there. Under like conditions, I'd take any of that group ahead of your poll choices of Henderson, Cobb, Brock, and Mays. That group was a more proficient base stealer, but I don't think any of them were considered the fastest at the time they played. In terms of just flat out speed, I'd say Willie Wilson was faster than Rickey, Thorpe and Milan were faster than Cobb, and Willie Davis was faster than either Brock or Mays.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Greg Luzinski.

CTaka does an excellent job, keepthefaith, of explaining why stolen bases are not the sole gauge for base speed.

[ElHalo]

Deion Sanders is claimed to have run a 4.17 40. Bo Jackson is alleged to have run a 4.12 at the 1986 NFL combine. Do I believe those times? Pretty doubtful. I'm not saying Prime Time and Bo were slow; they were blazers. But when Ben Johnson set the then world record in the 100 meter dash in a steroid-aided 9.79 seconds in the 1988 Olympics, it was shown that he blazed through the first 40 yards in ....4.38 seconds??? Deion and Bo were fast, but do I think that they would have dusted Ben Johnson, running in spikes with a slight tailwind on a warm afternoon in the same race that he ran the fastest 100 meters of all time? Sorry, that's just way too big of a stretch for me.

NFL combine numbers are pretty accurate. You have to remember that somebody running the 100 meters still has about 65 meters left to go when he's done with 40 yards, while Bo and Deion were all finished, and didn't have to leave any reserves.

[Brian McKenna]

BK,

What is your opinion of Cool Papa Bell?

Had to be very fast - a lot of legend attached though as most Negro leaguers; however, (if I'm remembering correctly) Jesse Owens wouldn't race him so that says a lot.

My point really was that speed doesn't necessarily make the greatest professional baseball player. So why is so much of the conversation focused on the best the game has ever seen? Doesn't it make sense that there were a lot of lightning-quick players whose names don't necessarily roll of the tongue.

[W_Marone]

Actually Mantle was faster than Mays, as documented by Bill James.

I was just about to comment, Where is Micky Mantle as a choice?

[LGehrigFan]

Damn the drain pipe in Yankee Stadium that rendered Mantle slower.

[brett]

I have studied sprinting, and you are correct, it is well known that 100m sprinters are slower for the first 40 that the fastest players in the NFL, but they continue to accelerate longer and reach a higher peak speed.


NFL combine numbers are pretty accurate. You have to remember that somebody running the 100 meters still has about 65 meters left to go when he's done with 40 yards, while Bo and Deion were all finished, and didn't have to leave any reserves.

[tearforamariner]

Had to be very fast - a lot of legend attached though as most Negro leaguers; however, (if I'm remembering correctly) Jesse Owens wouldn't race him so that says a lot.

My point really was that speed doesn't necessarily make the greatest professional baseball player. So why is so much of the conversation focused on the best the game has ever seen? Doesn't it make sense that there were a lot of lightning-quick players whose names don't necessarily roll of the tongue.

You are correct about Jesse Owens. And yes, there is a lot of legend surrounding the speed of Cool Papa Bell. We all know about Satchel Paige's stories, and while he added a lot of color to his analysis, I still believe that with the information we have, Cool Papa Bell could quite possibly be the fastest player ever.

Now, CCC mentioned Herb Washington. Herb Washington's only job was to run. Does anyone know how fast he was?

[Brian McKenna]

Predating Herb Washington by five years, Hideo Iijima appeared in 117 games for the Lotte Orions from 1969-71 without registering an at bat. The pinch runner scored 46 runs with 23 steals but was caught 17 times. He was a member of Japan’s track and field team in the 1968 Olympics. Iijima had previously set the national mark of 10.1 seconds in the 100 meter dash.

[Brian McKenna]

baseballlibrary.com

Herb Washington


Washington held world indoor track records in both the 50- and 60-yard dashes (5.0 and 5.8 seconds), but hadn't played baseball since his junior year in high school when A's owner Charlie Finley signed him as the club's designated pinch runner two weeks before the 1974 season. He appeared in 104 games in 1974-75, never batting, and he stole 30 bases, but was not nearly as good a base stealer as his speed would suggest. In the 1974 WS, Washington ran for Joe Rudi in the ninth inning of Game Two after Rudi's single had cut Oakland's deficit to 3-2, and was promptly picked off by Dodgers pitcher Mike Marshall. (SCL)

[tearforamariner]

baseballlibrary.com

Thanks for the information BK, very interesting.

[hubkittel]

here's a quote from whitey herzog (who played with mantle and managed willie wilson): "(McGee) could fly. I think he was faster than (Mickey) Mantle. I thought he (Mantle) was the fastest in my time. (Willie) Mays was fast too. Mickey Rivers, he was fast. Dave Collins, Rickey Henderson, they were fast. Willie McGee was the fastest."

[CTaka]

NFL combine numbers are pretty accurate. You have to remember that somebody running the 100 meters still has about 65 meters left to go when he's done with 40 yards, while Bo and Deion were all finished, and didn't have to leave any reserves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't NFL combines use a handheld stopwatch? I'm pretty sure they did in the 80's and early 90's when Deion and Bo went through their combines, but aren't they still timed by hand? I'm not convinced the human eye/hand is as accurate as the electronic timers in the Olympics. I'm not a sprint expert, but that's just what my gut tells me.

[plask_stirlac]

Well those are the best combine 40 times, regardless of how they were taken. And guys that fast are most likely to go into football in a pure athletic sense, where running with or past guys is very valuable, so a lot of bruners play there even without guaranteed money.

And they really gun it, they kind of stumble and have to steady themselves right after crossing the 40 line. Going 100 M that way wouldn't work.

[tommydale1]

Another name: Herb Washington.

Thank you!! Although a novelty-act, Washington can lay claim to being the fastest person ever to play baseball. He was a sprinter at the olympics wasn't he? Well, to my knowledge...he's the only olympic sprinter to play professional baseball. Jackie Robinson's brother has a silver medal in the 100m. I think he finished second to Jesse Owens.

The hands down answer is Washington. Speed around the bases is different from being the fastest. Whose the fastest baserunner is what (I think) the poster was asking. But...they didn't post that, so this is the answer. No other answer will do.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Thank you!! Although a novelty-act, Washington can lay claim to being the fastest person ever to play baseball. He was a sprinter at the olympics wasn't he? Well, to my knowledge...he's the only olympic sprinter to play professional baseball. Jackie Robinson's brother has a silver medal in the 100m. I think he finished second to Jesse Owens.

The hands down answer is Washington. Speed around the bases is different from being the fastest. Whose the fastest baserunner is what (I think) the poster was asking. But...they didn't post that, so this is the answer. No other answer will do.
Washington never competed in the Olympics. I have searched several sources on the Internet and none of them state that Washington was an Olympian. The only Olympics he could have competed in was the 1972 Olympics and he is not listed on the US Track roster.

[Colorado Express]

Maury Wills would get my vote, but he's not an option, so I'll take Brock.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Some nominees for the past 40 years or so.

Mickey Rivers
Willie Wilson
Eric Davis
Tim Raines
Rickey Henderson
Dion Sanders
Jos Reyes

[tommydale1]

Washington never competed in the Olympics. I have searched several sources on the Internet and none of them state that Washington was an Olympian. The only Olympics he could have competed in was the 1972 Olympics and he is not listed on the US Track roster.

Thanks Honus...you're right about this. It was a bit of a premature post. Washington ran in college and ran professionally with much success, but never ran in the olympics. I think the competitions he did carry more accuracy than taking Whitey Herzog's word for it (No offense).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Thanks Honus...you're right about this. It was a bit of a premature post. Washington ran in college and ran professionally with much success, but never ran in the olympics. I think the competitions he did carry more accuracy than taking Whitey Herzog's word for it (No offense).
Washington was a great college sprinter winning an NCAA title and several Big 10 titles.



Herbert Lee Washington was born on November 16, 1951 in Belzoni, MS, and sometime thereafter his family moved north to Flint, MI. It was at Flint's Central High that Washington first gained national attention when he tied world class sprinter Charlie Green in the 50 yard dash at the Milwaukee Journal Indoor Track Meet.

After high school, Washington attended Michigan State University on a track scholarship. At MSU, he broke the indoor records for both the 50 and 60 yard dash several times. During his decorated collegiate career, Washington was named an All-American four times, won seven Big Ten titles, and an captured an NCAA championship.

A superb all-around athlete, Washington also suited up for the Spartans' football team as a wide receiver in 1971 and 1972. Although he caught only one pass for 41 yards, the Baltimore Colts drafted the speedster in the 12th round of the 1973 draft. Washington, however, never pursued a career in pro football.

Meanwhile in Oakland, the Athletics had just captured their second consecutive World Series title, and owner Charlie Finley was, apparently, bored. Finley, who came up with several wacky ideas such as using an orange baseball, decided his team needed a "designated runner"; a player whose sole purpose is to pinch run and steal bases.

Herb Washington, even though he had not played baseball since his junior year in high school, fit the bill. Two weeks before the 1974 season, Finley signed the track star and placed him on the 25 man roster.

Although Washington was fast, he was not well versed in the finer points of base stealing. Nevertheless, the fleet footed specialist managed to swipe 29 bases in 1974, but was caught 16 times. Washington appeared in 92 games that season, all as a pinch runner.

The Athletics won their third straight AL pennant that season, before facing the Los Angeles Dodgers in the World Series. After winning Game 1, the A's were down 3-2 in the bottom of the 9th with one out in Game 2 when Washington was inserted to pinch run for Joe Rudi, who was on first base. Washington, however, was quickly picked off by Dodgers' reliever Mike Marshall who then struck out Angel Managual to end the game. Oakland went on to win the Series in five games, but Washington's pick off lives on in World Series infamy.

Washington opened the 1975 season with Oakland, but was released on May 5, when the organization felt keeping a roster spot for a runner was no longer justified. The former Michigan State track star appeared in just 13 games that season, stealing 2 bases in 3 attempts. All told, Herb Washington appeared in 104 games, stole 31 bases, and scored 33 runs without ever batting, pitching, or fielding.

Following his brief baseball career, Washington joined the pro track circuit and remained in competition until 1976. Today he is a successful business man, owning several McDonalds franchises in the Rochester, NY area. In 1997, he was awarded the prestigious NCAA Silver Anniversary Award which recognizes former student athletes who have distinguished themselves 25 years after their collegiate career.

Washington is also a member of the Michigan State University Hall Fame, the Greater Flint Area Sports Hall of Fame, and an interesting footnote in our National Pastime's rich and colorful history.

[brett]

Actually, NFL combines are not only timed by hand, but the timing starts when the player makes his first move-which really cuts 0.2 off the top for reaction time versus a sprinter, but the hand times are very consistent. Several people will hand time at the same time, and they will all be within .15 MAX.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't NFL combines use a handheld stopwatch? I'm pretty sure they did in the 80's and early 90's when Deion and Bo went through their combines, but aren't they still timed by hand? I'm not convinced the human eye/hand is as accurate as the electronic timers in the Olympics. I'm not a sprint expert, but that's just what my gut tells me.

[Brian McKenna]

Actually, NFL combines are not only timed by hand, but the timing starts when the player makes his first move-which really cuts 0.2 off the top for reaction time versus a sprinter, but the hand times are very consistent. Several people will hand time at the same time, and they will all be within .15 MAX.

When I read threads on BBF I read from top to bottom like most I believe. Many times I read your posts and don't know what your point is and then whala I keep scrolling and see that you were actually responding to another post. Why is that original post always at the bottom - it should be at the top like everyone else's?

[hubkittel]

Thanks Honus...you're right about this. It was a bit of a premature post. Washington ran in college and ran professionally with much success, but never ran in the olympics. I think the competitions he did carry more accuracy than taking Whitey Herzog's word for it (No offense).

how dare you question the word of whitey herzog! :laugh i stumbled on that quote a few weeks ago and thought it was interesting. i always knew whitey said that mcgee was the fastest guy on the cardinals in the 80's but this was something new. i was just amazed that a guy who played with, managed, or managed against most of the guys we're talking about as candidates for fastest player ever nominates a guy who nobody really considers.

did anybody mention jim thorpe?

[CTaka]

Thank you!! Although a novelty-act, Washington can lay claim to being the fastest person ever to play baseball. He was a sprinter at the olympics wasn't he? Well, to my knowledge...he's the only olympic sprinter to play professional baseball. Jackie Robinson's brother has a silver medal in the 100m. I think he finished second to Jesse Owens.


While he wasn't a sprinter in the classical sense, Jim Thorpe was an Olympian (decathlon and pentathlon) who did play major league baseball. Like others of his day, his times wouldn't match the times that modern athletes put up. There are vast differences in equipment, tracks, training regimens, diet, etc. His best time ever in the 100 yard dash was 9.8 seconds and that was in a practice run - his best in an actual race was 10.0. Heck, Vince Coleman ran a 9.9 in the finals of the 1987 Superstars event and Willie Wilson ran a 10.01 in the 1981 Superstars. So just based on those times and "time maching" Thorpe, I'm not saying Thorpe was clearly faster than they were. But I think that if Thorpe were raised at the same time and under the same conditions as the other names mentioned in this thread, there is a very good chance that he could run stride for stride with the fastest baseball players ever.

In Glory of Their Times, Edd Roush said of Thorpe: "By thunder, there was a man could outrun a deer. Beat anything I ever saw. I used to be pretty fast myself. Stole close to 300 bases in the Big Leagues. And I had a real long stride, for the simple reason that in the outfield if you don't take a long stride, your head bobs up and down too much and makes it hard to follow the flight of the ball. But Jim Thorpe would take only two strides to my three. I'd run just as hard as I could, and he'd keep up with me just trotting along. One day I asked him, 'Jim, anybody in those Olympic games ever make you really run your best?' 'I never yet saw the man I couldn't look back at,' he says to me. I believed him."

[rsuriyop]

Cool Papa Bell would also get my vote. Although I've heard a story or two about how Spottswood Poles (Book? Internet article?) might have actually been a bit faster.

[elmer]

Mantle was clocked by coaches and writers in '51 before he injured his knee
timed many times at 3.1 seconds home to first.
in training camp the coaches made him run the bases several times disbelieving their stop watches.timing him in "just under" 13 seconds. Mantle said he nearly threw up from having to run around so many times.
there is a video of the 51 series where he and Phil Rizzuto had back to back bunts. Mantle can be timed on it in about 3.25 seconds.
sources are various books on Mantle
Elmer

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Mantle was clocked by coaches and writers in '51 before he injured his knee
timed many times at 3.1 seconds home to first.
in training camp the coaches made him run the bases several times disbelieving their stop watches.timing him in "just under" 13 seconds. Mantle said he nearly threw up from having to run around so many times.
there is a video of the 51 series where he and Phil Rizzuto had back to back bunts. Mantle can be timed on it in about 3.25 seconds.
sources are various books on Mantle
Elmer

Not an ice-cream cone's chance in hell that he could keep up that pace while rounding the bases on loose dirt imo. Either way he's gotta be safely a top 5 guy when healthy. Freaky dude.

[elmer]

xxxxxxxxxxxx

[rugbyfreak]

Since the thread asked for fastest only, and not necessarily the best player, none of the choices worked for me. Also, on something like fastest, I can only go with players I saw, so Cool Papa is out. So I cast additional votes for:

Wilson--blinding!!
Sanders
Bo
Herb (the biggest NON-player ever)

[HDH]

Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Willie Wilson, Ron LeFlore... all faster than those listed above. Nook Logan, Joey Gathrite, Rocco Baldelli also.

[KBwsb]

-Ty Cobb himself stated that Clyde Milan was, by far, the fastest man in the game when both played.
-Wasn't Pete Reiser supposed to be a demon, before massive injuries?

-No one has mentioned Vince Coleman, but he stole 110 bases as a rookie with no technique, so I assume it was pure speed.
-Deion was just blazing.
-I would guess that Ichiro is the fastest current player, although, given his age, it's possible that someone is faster.

[Minstrel]

Delino DeShields was awfully fast, as well. It's pretty hard to isolate the very fastest...as someone said earlier in the thread, it's very likely not one of the all-time best, since pure speed doesn't likely correlate very well with baseball ability (though it's always nice to have).

I'd have to go with Deion Sanders. Not a good baseball player, but the fastest non-track athlete I've ever seen. He stole bases at a 75% clip just on pure speed...no skill or instincts or anything.

[George Vedros]

Are you asking about base stealing prowess or raw speed? From what I've read Mantle would also have to be included.

[G.Costanza]

Are you asking about base stealing prowess or raw speed? From what I've read Mantle would also have to be included.
Myth is he ran a 3 flat up the line before his injuries,I myself tend to believe this is exaggerated due to Mantles enormous popularity with his generation.Also as far as myself I would have to agree with people who said Neon Deon,but I think a more interesting poll would be who was the fastest great player.

[GiambiJuice]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Vince Coleman. He's probably the fastest i've seen.

[HDH]

-Ty Cobb himself stated that Clyde Milan was, by far, the fastest man in the game when both played.
-Wasn't Pete Reiser supposed to be a demon, before massive injuries?

-No one has mentioned Vince Coleman, but he stole 110 bases as a rookie with no technique, so I assume it was pure speed.
-Deion was just blazing.
-I would guess that Ichiro is the fastest current player, although, given his age, it's possible that someone is faster.


I could be wrong because I don't always remember what I've read after a long time correctly but, thought Ty Cobb said Hans Lobert was the fastest he ever saw on the basepaths. He also gave mention to former olympians Davy Jones and long easy striding Jim Thorpe.

Also, Vince Coleman had a great technique. It was Willie McGee who was faster than Coleman who did not steal until Vince Coleman encouraged and worked with him to steal bases.

[milladrive]

Of the mere four players listed, and based on full career performance, I'll go with Henderson.

I'd like to see more poll options, though.

[Mad Guru]

Hans Lobert.

[The Kid]

I'd like to see more poll options, though.

Can a mod add more options then?

[Brian McKenna]

Hank Schenz was clocked at 13.5 seconds around the bases.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Joe Blow was clocked holding his breath for 8 minutes.

[Brian McKenna]

Joe Blow was clocked holding his breath for 8 minutes.

Great insight - what nobody want to talk about Ruth tonight??

[STLCards2]

There is a lot more to stolen bases than speed. The only options on this "fastest player ever" thread are the top 3 SB guys and Mays. I am sure there have been many, many players with more raw speed than these four, but didn't get on base enough, didn't play long enough, and didn't know how to steal enough (instinct, knowing pitchers, etc.) to rack up the big totals.

Example: somebody mentioned Willie McGee. While he was always out-SB'd by Vince Coleman, Ozzie Smith, and sometimes even Tommy Herr or somebody else, he was by far the fastest guy on the team.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Great insight - what nobody want to talk about Ruth tonight??
:laugh

Sultan can't accept that anyone can run the basess that fast. Even though we've given him documented evidence that it has been done he refuses to believe it.

[brett]

Hank Schenz was clocked at 13.5 seconds around the bases.

I can tell you that on a short cut grass surface, a top defensive back only requires about .3 seconds for each 90 degrees of directional change.

On such a surface, running bases, this would equate to .9 seconds added to someones straight ahead 120 yard sprint time.

A world record time would be a little under 11 seconds (10.7)
A plus speed major league outfielder would be at most 13 seconds
12 seconds would probably be in line with Bo Jackson or Willie Wilson type speed, with Deion Sanders maybe cutting it down a little.

So if you took a guy with 12.0 speed and he made every turn perfectly on a low cut grass surface, he could round the bases in 12.9 if he also had the agility of a pro defensive back.

Most have double the turning time added.

[dl4060]

These times around the bases are bogus imo.

We say that Mantle's fastest time down to first was 3.1 seconds. That's blazing. Who knows when they started the clock and he was in the lefty box. Even considering that number to be legit...he was running on a dead sprint for a short distance where his energy had no chance to lower. Even at that pace, with those advantages (not having to round the bags, not slowing up at all and running on loose dirt....) he would project to 12.4 seconds. Anyone who has played baseball can see how much of a time-factor all the negatives would be. Just rounding the bags compared to running in a straight line would add a huge amount of time, rendering these "13" second times impossible.


I don't know if those times are impossible. Even though he is rounding the bases, the longer distance means more time at full speed. Look at sprinters, the times in the 100 project to lower 40 times than have ever been run, because the first 40 meters is slower than the following sixty. If someone is rounding the bases their slowest rate of speed is the first leg, since they go from a dead stop and must accelerate. The added distance from rounding may slow people down, but they will still be moving at a higher rate of speed for the rest of the trip to home. I don't know for sure whether that makes enough of a difference to make those times possible, but it very well may.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Here's an article with great detail about George Case running 13.5 seconds on 9/15/1943. Case was timed by four AAU track officials. These officials are trained timers.

[dl4060]

Are we talking pure stopwatch speed here, or speed in a baseball sense. Mickey Mantle was faster than Willie Mays, but Mays made better use of his speed. When both played for the royals, Bo Jackson was faster than Willie Wilson, but Willie used his speed much better than Bo did.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Are we talking pure stopwatch speed here, or speed in a baseball sense. Mickey Mantle was faster than Willie Mays, but Mays made better use of his speed. When both played for the royals, Bo Jackson was faster than Willie Wilson, but Willie used his speed much better than Bo did.
By the time Bo was on the Royals, Willie Wilson was old and past his prime. In his prime Wilson was faster than Bo in his prime.

[elmer]

Yankees management limited Mantle's running to times when
they most needed a stolen base. Mantle commented after his
retirement he could have had a 40-40 year after Canseco did it.
It was often said about Mantle, while he was playing, that he was the best in the American League going from first to third since DiMaggio. This has been largely forgotten about him.
Mantle could run bases well even with his bad knees until the latter part of his career. Rounding bases was not as bad as when he had to turn toward a fly ball to chase it. It made his startup slower than with healthy knees. They got so bad he had to be positioned at first his last couple of years. By then EVERYTHING he did had a lot of pain to it.
Houk said he was up to 3.6 or 3.7 by 1957. :)

elmer

[Sultan_1895-1948]

On such a surface, running bases, this would equate to .9 seconds added to someones straight ahead 120 yard sprint time.


Except this isn't in a straight line for 120 yards. This is rounding each base in order to decrease the angle at each base and maintain maximum speed. Much more than 120 yards you're working with here. Then you can throw in the baggy uniforms and loose dirt (track doesn't deal with that so you can take away your "world record" time) to the equation.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Except this isn't in a straight line for 120 yards. This is rounding each base in order to decrease the angle at each base and maintain maximum speed. Much more than 120 yards you're working with here. Then you can throw in the baggy uniforms and loose dirt (track doesn't deal with that so you can take away your "world record" time) to the equation.
Sultan,

Have you read the George Case article I posted? The article is pretty detailed and states that four AAU timers timed Case. All four timers were within .1 seconds of each other. Even if we allow for a .3 second "fast hand" that's still well under 14 seconds for Case.

[elmer]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

The record for the fastest time for circling the bases is 13.3 seconds, set by Evar Swanson at Columbus, Ohio in 1932. His average speed around the bases was 18.45 mph.

[Iron Jaw]

Another name: Herb Washington.


Of course......they said PLAYER!!!!!!!!!:D

But, despite the fact that sprinting champion Herb had no clue about baseball - I think he said he never played it in his life - he was indeed, an Oakland A for one season as a permanent PR.

I guess, sort of like one of those foreign placekickers in the NFL who knew how to kick but nothing about football.

[mtortolero]

I vote by Vince Coleman.
He has the second best average of the history of SB by games played (Hamilton is first) for someone with more than 740 SB but Hamilton did it in other circunstances in the deadball era meanwhile Coleman was running against better catchers in the 80´s and 90`s:
Collins: 744 SB in 2826 games
Coleman : 752 SB in 1371 games
Raines: 808 SB in 2502 games
Cobb: 892 SB in 3035 games
Hamilton: 912 SB in 1591 games
Brock: 938 SB in 2616 games
Henderson : 1406 SB in 3081 games
I think his SB numbers are incredible if you take in account he had a mediocre .324 carrer obp. Can you imagine his SB having the same obp as Raines or Henderson?

[Fatbill]

My real vote would go to Cool Papa Bell, he could steal bases at will in the Negro Leagues.
Rickey Henderson was fast but incredibly smart on the basepaths.
Ty Cobb was basically, a ballsy and audacious baserunner (he was fast as hell, but more cerebral)
Lou Brock was the same as Henderson, but to a lesser degree.
Willie Mays had incredible range and took good routes to the ball, he wasn't really that fast.

[Iron Jaw]

I vote by Vince Coleman.


But Vince couldn't run fast enough to escape the dreaded tarp cover back in '85.;)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan,

Have you read the George Case article I posted? The article is pretty detailed and states that four AAU timers timed Case. All four timers were within .1 seconds of each other. Even if we allow for a .3 second "fast hand" that's still well under 14 seconds for Case.

That's fine dude. I used to run a 4.38 forty and don't think I could touch that. Even at 29 I'm probably still in the high 4.4's or low 4.5's. I'll suggest that our team do that specific drill this year and we'll see what happens ;)

[Iron Jaw]

That's fine dude. I used to run a 4.38 forty and don't think I could touch that. Even at 29 I'm probably still in the high 4.4's or low 4.5's. I'll suggest that our team do that specific drill this year and we'll see what happens ;)

That's some darned good times. I played college football with a 4.65-4.7 40. But then, I was a fullback at a D-II school that ran the wishbone.;)

[mtortolero]

But Vince couldn't run fast enough to escape the dreaded tarp cover back in '85.;)

He was waiting the SB signal from the dogout!
That was one bizarre iinjury.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

That's fine dude. I used to run a 4.38 forty and don't think I could touch that. Even at 29 I'm probably still in the high 4.4's or low 4.5's. I'll suggest that our team do that specific drill this year and we'll see what happens ;)
:confused:

What the heck are yout talking about? I gave you detailed evidence that Case ran 13.5 seconds around the bases. No response to the evidence?