Should Bernie Be Brought Back?

[DoubleX]

We can survive with 3 bench players obviously there is the backup Catchers and nMelky so then you have a decision on the last guy who has to be able to play 1B. Craig Wilson could plattoon with Phillips and simuktaneously be a 5th OF. Miguel Cairo can play every position under the sun including the OF

If there are 13 pitchers there would only be room for two of the players you mentioned, so there would be no Phillips/Wilson platoon. With just 12 positional players, you have 3 bench players, one being Melky, one being the backup catcher, and one being someone else, and the most sensible would be a utilty plyaer like Cairo.

[DoubleX]

It appears that Bernie Williams was not offered salary arbitration, which gives the Yanks a limited window to either get a contract done with Bernie or not be able to sign him until May, which would probably effectively end his tenure with the team. I believe last year the team did offer him salary arbitration, with an understanding that he would reject it, just so the team could buy itself more time to make a decision. So the fact that Bernie was not offered arbitration is probably not a good sign about the Yankees intentions of retaining him.

Personally, I'm torn. Bernie was my favorite player for years, and his status as best player on the team during its championship years never seemed to be fully acknowledged. I still think as a switch-hitter with some life left in his bat, he would make a nice addition to the bench, much like Ruben Sierra for a few years, and Bernie did show last year that he can still play a little in the field if necessary.

But on the other hand, it might be time to move on and bring in someone younger and more athletic. With that in mind, I think the only player I'd really accept replacing Bernie would be Kevin Thompson. Thompson has great speed, is good defensively, and he showed last year in his brief time in the Majors that he can hit a little. If the team goes out and bring in some veteran, I'll see that as a slap in Bernie's face. Then again, if Bernie is looking for more playing time and he can find it out there somewhere (Colorado maybe?), I'd definitely support that.

What do you all think?

EDIT: I just read that under the new collective bargaining agreement reached during the World Series, the rules for salary arbitration have changed. Now, even if a team doesn't offer a player arbitration, they can still sign that player at anytime, they do not have to wait until May. By not offering arbitration the team now only loses the right to get draft picks if the player signs elsewhere (as well as not having to gamble that the player might accept arbitration and make more than the team would like to play). So, this might not actually mean anything insofar as Bernie is concerned, other than the team isn't ready to commit and rather not be stuck with arbitration if Bernie accepts.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Bernie was invaluable last season when Matsui and Sheff went down Bernie stepped in, that and his WS play earns Bernie a life time spot on the Yankees IMO

[cmaff05]

Bernie, please retire. You are a shell of your former self.

Bernie would be our 5th outfielder, and he only does one thing well; hit lefties. Who is he going to pinch hit for in this lineup? Not to mention he can't pinch hit and is an atrocius outfielder.

And with Joe Torre as a manager, he's going to get more at-bats than he deserves. Give the 5th outfielder spot to somebody who can steal bases and playing a good outfield. Bernie isn't that person.

[Evangelion]

No, if Melky remain on the team. Bernie will serve as 5th OF. You could bring him back, but you don't need a 5th OF, especially with Melky on the bench. The Yankees shouldn't bring him back for the sake of doing it. Bernie should retire, if New York doesn't sign him. I just can't imagine him finishing his career on another team.

[slugger33]

No, if Melky remain on the team. Bernie will serve as 5th OF. You could bring him back, but you don't need a 5th OF, especially with Melky on the bench. The Yankees shouldn't bring him back for the sake of doing it. Bernie should retire, if New York doesn't sign him. I just can't imagine him finishing his career on another team.
Bernie should go. All he is useful for now is pinch hitting or filling in for hurt guys. He should just retire to avoid a horrible season and embarrasing himself.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Bernie was invaluable last year but I think it would be best for both of them for him to retire. I`d much rather have the extra arm in the bulloen. if we do go with 5 OF and 12 pitchers than we should bring him back but I`d prefer 13 pitchers.

[Mike27]

I think this is up to Bernie. If he wants to come back then the Yanks should sign him, as he deserves. Bernie has done so much for his team and the fans. I could not imagine him in another uniform, and I think it would be a disgrace to see that. I do hope Bernie retires, and we could call up 1 of the younger guys if we need another OF, but if Bernie wants to come back then the Yanks better sign him.

[DoubleX]

Bernie was invaluable last year but I think it would be best for both of them for him to retire. I`d much rather have the extra arm in the bulloen. if we do go with 5 OF and 12 pitchers than we should bring him back but I`d prefer 13 pitchers.

13 pitchers? That's too much, IMO. I think 12 is too much. I don't think many teams carry more than 12.

[The Kid]

I I could not imagine him in another uniform, and I think it would be a disgrace to see that.

And that is why I hate Bernie :D

[Mariano_Rivera]

13 pitchers? That's too much, IMO. I think 12 is too much. I don't think many teams carry more than 12.

I think it's a very good idea. According to this article in Newsday it is a possibility as well:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks014997289dec01,0,6969935.story?coll=ny-yankees-print

While Bernie Williams is eager for another season in pinstripes, a cloud of uncertainty hovers over his future.

General manager Brian Cashman and manager Joe Torre both have spoken with Williams recently, but they have given him little indication whether they plan to have a spot for him on their 2007 roster, according to a person familiar with the situation.




When Torre spoke with Williams, the person said Torre echoed what he told reporters three weeks ago today: that Williams' future could be determined by whether the Yankees decide to go with an additional pitcher in the bullpen.

The Yankees would like to lessen their bullpen's workload next season and the solution might be carrying 13 pitchers, which is something they have done for only short periods. That would leave room for only one reserve outfielder - Melky Cabrera - eliminating a potential roster spot for Williams.

Williams probably would choose to retire rather than play for a team besides the Yankees, the only organization he knows. They signed him in 1985 and he has been in the majors since 1991.

When Williams was asked three weeks ago whether he would play for another team, he seemed to quiver at the thought of it and took a pass. "If they don't want me back, I'll have to address that situation," he said. "The role that I played last year was pretty interesting. I think I adjusted to it pretty well."

Williams expected to be a part-time outfielder in 2006, but he got 420 at-bats because of injuries to Hideki Matsui and Gary Sheffield. He had a strong offensive season, hitting .281 with 29 doubles, 12 homers and 61 RBIs.

But he struggled as a pinch hitter, with two hits in 16 at-bats. His defensive range and arm are greatly diminished and he is of little use as a pinch runner.

[clipper]

DX, this is a tough one. The Yankees may not have offered arbitration because they may offer him less with a diminished role. I don't have a problem with 5OF. I do hope he retires and hope the Yankees find a spot for him in the minors, bench, or even the front office. I can't see him in another uniform. But this happens in sports. Rickey may be right about the pen. I was surprise to see Ron Villone get offered arbitration, I'm sure he will accept.

A Class Act,
Clipper

[DoubleX]

DX, this is a tough one. The Yankees may not have offered arbitration because they may offer him less with a diminished role. I don't have a problem with 5OF. I do hope he retires and hope the Yankees find a spot for him in the minors, bench, or even the front office. I can't see him in another uniform. But this happens in sports. Rickey may be right about the pen. I was surprise to see Ron Villone get offered arbitration, I'm sure he will accept.

I've heard that when Bernie does retire, he'll likely pursue his music career.

I'd be very surprised to see the team carry 13 pitchers and just 12 position players for any length of time - that leaves just 3 guys on the bench, one being the backup catcher.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I've heard that when Bernie does retire, he'll likely pursue his music career.

I'd be very surprised to see the team carry 13 pitchers and just 12 position players for any length of time - that leaves just 3 guys on the bench, one being the backup catcher.

We can survive with 3 bench players obviously there is the backup Catchers and nMelky so then you have a decision on the last guy who has to be able to play 1B. Craig Wilson could plattoon with Phillips and simuktaneously be a 5th OF. Miguel Cairo can play every position under the sun including the OF

[Mattingly]

We've got enough bench guys. I love Bernie's total class, the sense of dignity that he, Mo, Jeter and Posada bring to the Yankee organization. However, I think that there's a time when a player has made people very happy and hopefully will carry onward.

He should for the graceful life of him, always be a Yankee. He could, like Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford and Phil Rizzuto, remain connected with the team. Heck, if Reggie Jackson, borne from Charlie Finley's farm, can be very well-connected to the Yanks, due largely to his 3 consecutive dingers on 3 consecutive pitches in the WS, then Bernie certainly should never have to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

If he wants to be a spring coach, I say let him. If he wants to be an ambassador to the young Latin players, I say let him. If he wants to coach or manage one of the farm teams, I say give him a chance.

While Bernie will always be beloved, I don't see him going to another team. I believe that we should have a special ceremony on his behalf, such as Opening Day, for all the great things he's done for us over the years.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well I say you do it incase something like last season happens.

[cmaff05]

Well I say you do it incase something like last season happens.

Yeah, let's keep a guy that is clearly past his prime and can't play the field anymore or hit righties.

Kevin Thompson can do just as good a job. Or Aaron Guiel. Or Craig Wilson. And they are all good outfielders. Bernie is not.

[DoubleX]

Yeah, let's keep a guy that is clearly past his prime and can't play the field anymore or hit righties.

Kevin Thompson can do just as good a job. Or Aaron Guiel. Or Craig Wilson. And they are all good outfielders. Bernie is not.

Bernie was pretty mediocre from the left side of the plate this year - it was reminiscent of earlier in his career when he was only an average hitter from the left side by a terror from the right side. Still, his numbers against left handed pitching this past year were very good. In 133 ABs, he hit .323 with a .936 OPS against left handed pitching.

Personally, if Bernie is going to go, I'd like to see Kevin Thompson get the 5th OF spot. I was very impressed by the little bit of action he did get last year.

[BrewCrew1]

Why not, he could get the 5th outfield spot. He deserves it.

[KCGHOST]

George Weiss will roll over in his grave if the Yanks bring back Bernie. Time for a little soulless player evaluation. He is a declining league average hitter who cannot man a defensive position.

Bernie has been a model citizen in NY and has comported himself with class, but it is time for him to go. If he wants to be a career Yanke it is time for him to do the right thing and hang'em up.

[Mariano_Rivera]

George Weiss will roll over in his grave if the Yanks bring back Bernie. Time for a little soulless player evaluation. He is a declining league average hitter who cannot man a defensive position.

Bernie has been a model citizen in NY and has comported himself with class, but it is time for him to go. If he wants to be a career Yanke it is time for him to do the right thing and hang'em up.
We've got enough bench guys. I love Bernie's total class, the sense of dignity that he, Mo, Jeter and Posada bring to the Yankee organization. However, I think that there's a time when a player has made people very happy and hopefully will carry onward.

He should for the graceful life of him, always be a Yankee. He could, like Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford and Phil Rizzuto, remain connected with the team. Heck, if Reggie Jackson, borne from Charlie Finley's farm, can be very well-connected to the Yanks, due largely to his 3 consecutive dingers on 3 consecutive pitches in the WS, then Bernie certainly should never have to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

If he wants to be a spring coach, I say let him. If he wants to be an ambassador to the young Latin players, I say let him. If he wants to coach or manage one of the farm teams, I say give him a chance.

While Bernie will always be beloved, I don't see him going to another team. I believe that we should have a special ceremony on his behalf, such as Opening Day, for all the great things he's done for us over the years.


:clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping

[Evangelion]

Why not, he could get the 5th outfield spot. He deserves it.
Yeah, that's nice and all, but the Yankees don't need a 5th OF. Also, you prefer Williams taking up a roster spot for a more deserving player or/and a young prospect?

[LGehrigFan]

I'd love to have Bernie one more year. Nothing like a good morale booster on the bench.

However, if they don't resign him he should retire because Bernie on another team is, well... shameful.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I'd love to have Bernie one more year. Nothing like a good morale booster on the bench.

However, if they don't resign him he should retire because Bernie on another team is, well... shameful.

Yeah I think that Bernie Williams might be most people's favorite Yankee, he's probably mine nice guy, signed my Guitar.

[TonyStarks]

Bernie Williams should be given every opportunity to make this team if there is a spot.

The service and memories that Bernie has given us all has been great.
We all know that this ride is about to end, just don't end it prematurely and force Bernie to sign with the RedSox or the Mets just to be a 5th OFer or a PH.

...

Also 13 pitchers is WAY to many. I don't like that this team carries 12!!

There should be no more than 11 pitchers if you ask me. Your 5 Starters and Mo then 5 guys who bridge the gap!

--

Co-Sign....if Bernie does hang up his spikes I want to see his spot goto Kevin Thompson!

[Mariano_Rivera]

If there are 13 pitchers there would only be room for two of the players you mentioned, so there would be no Phillips/Wilson platoon. With just 12 positional players, you have 3 bench players, one being Melky, one being the backup catcher, and one being someone else, and the most sensible would be a utilty plyaer like Cairo.
I wouldn`t take Cairo becuase in the event of an injury to position player I go through all of these scenarios

Phillips injured- Wilson takes over as a full-time 1B
Wilson injured- Phillips takes over as full-time 1B
Cano injured- Phillips moves to 2B and Wilson becomes full-time 1B
Jeter injured- Phillips moves to 3B, Wilson becomes full-time 1B and A-Rod moves to SS
A-Rod injured- Phillips moves to 3B and Wilson becomes full-time 1B
Any OF injured- Cabrera takes over for them

I`m changing my plan though so Cairo is one the team rather than Phillips because it would require less complex changes and I assume Phillips at 1B with Cairo at 2B or 3B or SS is a better option than Wilson at 1B and Phillips at 2B/3B and A-Rod possibly at SS. Also Wilson may not want to be used in a plattoon.

[VIBaseball]

Also 13 pitchers is WAY to many. I don't like that this team carries 12!!

There should be no more than 11 pitchers if you ask me. Your 5 Starters and Mo then 5 guys who bridge the gap!

Agreed, Tony. I haven't seen anybody who is a backer of carrying 13 support their argument yet. And no matter how many relievers, will Torre ever stop running two of them into the ground?

[Mariano_Rivera]

Agreed, Tony. I haven't seen anybody who is a backer of carrying 13 support their argument yet. And no matter how many relievers, will Torre ever stop running two of them into the ground?

Here's an argument for you

As of right now the probable rotation is this:

Wang
Mussina
Igawa
Johnson
Pavano

Only one of these guys is really going to be a reliable starter (Wang). The team needs bullpen depth. If they go with 11 pitchers as Tony wants they have (best case scenario with 11 pitchers IMO) that rotation with a bullpen that looks like this:

CL Rivera
SU Britton
MR Farnsworth
MR Bruney
MR/LM Proctor
LOOGY Myers

That isn`t exactly a lot of depth. Myers can`t really face more than one batter and I`m not so sure about Bruney. Farnsworth wasn`t so great either (I`m not giving up on him though). That gives you Rivera and of course 2 other good pitchers that Torre can easily run into the ground Proctor (who is also a LM in this plan), and young Britton. If you have 12 pitchers the guy you are throwing into it is Villone who is a LMR and LM. I don`t think he is that great either and the only good thing about him is that he is the best lefty on the market which isn`t saying a lot. By him taking the LM spot Proctor might not log as many innings as he would with 11 pitchers and that might help. However, with 13 pitchers you also throw in Octavio Dotel. I believe he can succesfully return froM TJ surgery and that he is the best FA reliever left. He would make it 3 reliable guys with a nice supporting cast. With 11 pitchers you have to have 5 bench players. That's Cabrera as the 4th OF, Bernie as a 5th OF (?), Cairo as a utility man, somebody as a BC and then another bench player, probably a defensive replacement for 1B I guess. That last guy is completely unnecesary and the 5th OF is not truly needed. If you have 12 pitchers you probably drop the last guy and still have an unnecesary 5th OF rather than Octavio Dote or Colter Bean from the minors who could actually contribute. If you have 13 pitchers you have the utility man, the BC and the 4th OF. Those are the only truly critically important bench positions and I`d rather have Dotel and Villone than bernie as a 5th OF and Wilson another 1B. What about you?

[VIBaseball]

That's the kind of debate I was hoping to see! :)

I approached it this way:

Total IP, season 1450
* 162 x 9 = 1458, assumes home wins outweigh extra innings (2006 club total was 1443.2).

Wang 220 (218 in '06)
Mussina 185 (197.1)
Johnson 180 (205)
Total 585

I assumed Wang holds steady, with mild declines from Mussina and RJ (who could break down for all we know).
I decided not to project anything for Igawa or Pavano -- let's leave them as unknown quantities.

Remaining IP 865

Other starters
@ 5.5 IP per = 352

Innings needed
from bullpen 513

Rivera 70
With LOOGY 30

Innings needed
from others 413

Using these assumptions suggests a staff of 12 -- if you believe that five relievers can share a total workload of 413 IP without getting burned out.

That shouldn't be too much to ask if they're not brought back several days in a row (hello, Mr. Torre).

If you decide not to carry a LOOGY, you could have an 11-man staff if you think five relievers can average 89 IP apiece.

If you think your other starters can average 6 IP per outing, that reduces the workload outside Rivera to 82 IP apiece without a LOOGY.

My only other comment is that carrying 13 pitchers means your everyday lineup better be able to hit lefties and righties almost equally well -- and you curtail the club's ability to platoon.

[Mariano_Rivera]

That's the kind of debate I was hoping to see! :)

I approached it this way:

Total IP, season 1450
* 162 x 9 = 1458, assumes home wins outweigh extra innings (2006 club total was 1443.2).

Wang 220 (218 in '06)
Mussina 185 (197.1)
Johnson 180 (205)
Total 585

I assumed Wang holds steady, with mild declines from Mussina and RJ (who could break down for all we know).
I decided not to project anything for Igawa or Pavano -- let's leave them as unknown quantities.

Remaining IP 865

Other starters
@ 5.5 IP per = 352

Innings needed
from bullpen 513

Rivera 70
With LOOGY 30

Innings needed
from others 413

Using these assumptions suggests a staff of 12 -- if you believe that five relievers can share a total workload of 413 IP without getting burned out.

That shouldn't be too much to ask if they're not brought back several days in a row (hello, Mr. Torre).

If you decide not to carry a LOOGY, you could have an 11-man staff if you think five relievers can average 89 IP apiece.

If you think your other starters can average 6 IP per outing, that reduces the workload outside Rivera to 82 IP apiece without a LOOGY.

My only other comment is that carrying 13 pitchers means your everyday lineup better be able to hit lefties and righties almost equally well -- and you curtail the club's ability to platoon.

I think you're overestimating Mr. Johnson. I`d consider him an unknown as well.

Wang (220 IP)
Mussina (185 IP)

Total- 405 IP

Remaining- 1,045 IP

With the LOOGY you have Rivera throwing 100 IP which I think is fair.

Remaining- 945 IP, 4 pitchers counted

I think that's a safe conservative estimation for the unknown quantities. That's 528 total innings from the 3 unknown quantities.

Reamaing IP- 417 IP, 7 pitchers used


With 11 pitchers you have Villone as a LM left, Britton (MR), Farsnworth (MR) and Proctor (SU).

You have to have these guys average 104.25 IP. I doubt Villone will get much work though and Torre will probably run these 3 guys into the ground. Besides, we're wasting Brian Bruney in this situation who could be valuable. if you don`t count VIllone then they have to average 139 IP. THat's ridiculous. 11 pitchers will definitely not work unless our SP surprise us.

With 12 pitchers counting Villone they have to average 83.4 IP which is still a lot. Discluding Villone it's iover 100 IP again for the average with 104.25 IP they have to average. It's doable but it's a stretch and they might be a little burned out by September.

However, with 13 pitchers counting Villone they only have to average 69.5 IP, and not counting Villone they still only have to average 83.4.

They really don`t need to carry 5 OF especially with Kevin Thompson in AAA ready for a call-up in the event of an injury. That 13th pitcher however, could make all the difference. They could make do with 12 pitchers but, once again, the 5th OF isn`t that important to them and another pitcher could definitely help.

As for the plattoon who are they going to plattoon? THe only ones that make sense is with either Phillips or Phelps at 1B and Giambi and I doubt they`ll do anything for Giambi.

I guess when they face righties they could play Giambi at 1B, bench Phelps/Phillips, move Matsui to DH and play Cabrera in LF but I doubt that they would do that more than twice a week.

If they had a decent lefty hitting 1B than i guess they could -plattooon Phelps/Phillips with the aforementioned lefty but they don`t have any lefty 1B.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Well they brought back Pettitte now and I believe that he can throw about 200 IP so I don`t see them needing the extra reliever as much. I`m changing my team by pulling out Villone and adding Bernie. i`m now supporting bringing Bernie back.